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View Full Version : UPDATE: Bad movers in the hunter ring *** My Jumper is now a Hunter



SkipChange
Jun. 7, 2011, 12:15 PM
My jumper really wants to be a hunter. He likes to go slow, he can walk the lines, he's got a 10 jump. Last weekend I played at a local show in the 3'3" hunters and he was a doll, won a class.

Now, Jumpers is really where my heart is, but hunters are pretty fun too. Cruising around that 3'3" course was just so dang easy for him (hunters are NOT easy, I just mean he likes hunters). I can picture him doing the AO's or 2nd year greens, boy he'd really jump the heck out of those. (Last year was his 1st year showing, he was doing 1.10m jumpers by the end of his first show).

He is good in the jumper ring though, almost always clean and 1 classic win to his name and placed in almost every classic. Oh and I qualified for local adult medal finals on him already (2 wins in his first eq show). But I think it'd be cool to have hunters on his "resume" too.

But he moves...pretty awful. Tons of knee action, much softer behind, not too much hock action. His trot is the killer, his canter isn't too bad. How much will movement really effect his placings OVER FENCES? Obviously he's going to be last in the hack unless all the other riders fall off. He's got great walk-canter transitions, so I don't ever plan on trotting in my O/F classes.

Disclaimer: I've got a trainer, a good one--well 2 good ones. They'll really decide whether I actually show him in the hunters at an A show. They won't let me embarrass myself.
In case y'all wanted a picture https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/38856_1373238012993_1293060230_30947275_8327327_n. jpg

amastrike
Jun. 7, 2011, 12:23 PM
Can't you just do only the hunter o/f classes?

SkipChange
Jun. 7, 2011, 12:25 PM
Amastrike--yes. I guess to clarify, the question is--will the fact that he's a bad mover hurt his placings over fences?

kayteedee
Jun. 7, 2011, 12:34 PM
I used to show an awful mover in the large Junior Hunters over fences, and skip the hack if I was trying to save a few dollars at any given show. He jumped beautifully though, so despite our mainly skipping the hack, we won a year end award ribbon in a highly competitive area (Zone 2). So I wouldn't hesitate to do it.


Of course, this was 22 years ago... I don't know if it would still fly.

CrimsonInClover
Jun. 7, 2011, 12:41 PM
My gelding was a HORRIBLE mover but man could he jump. I would only hack if it was a relatively small class, no way would I subject myself to a hack with 40+. Sometimes by me not hacking would mean the difference between Champion and Reserve in a division, but I was okay with that. We also did amazing well in the eq ring. No reason you shouldn't be able to do all three rings if your boy enjoys it.

SkipChange
Jun. 7, 2011, 12:50 PM
Loving the bad mover success stories, keep 'em coming!

I feel like this sort of versatility will look really good if I ever decide to sell him.

Also...Derbies? I totally want to do one.

Smiles
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:03 PM
If you plan on showing him in the a/os you have to trot in your courtesy circle. For rated divisions, whether its before you start your course or after the last jump you need to demonstrate soundness at the trot on course. Movement is factor in but most of the time its whoever puts in the best round that usually wins. I think at your bigger shows like devon and indoors movement and suitability come more into play since most people should be able to lay down a good trip.

redancepony
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:07 PM
He is a really cute boy and looks like fun to jump. I would definitely try him in a derby. I agree with the last few posters that if he is that amazing at every jump and you lay down 8 great jumps you will be in the money.

If, however, you are in an exceptionally difficult division/zone and everyone lays down a perfect trip it will come down the the smaller details, quality of movement, even rhythm etc. I will have to second the Eq. ring as well, where you will see jumpers cross over more often there.

Looks like you are going to have fun no matter which ring you are in!

BLBGP
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:09 PM
What level shows are you talking? How is his canter?

SkipChange
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:18 PM
Smiles--do you really have to trot in the O/F classes? I don't see that in the rules. Isn't that why you have the jog afterwards, to show soundnesss?

redancepony--He is so much fun! We'll be doing the local state association medal finals at the end of the year, it's only 3ft though, and he really shines over the bigger stuff. I mostly show in A shows, but I do like to support the local associations too.

BLBGP--talking A shows, mostly smaller ones.

White Lie
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:18 PM
One of my best hunters moved like a sewing machine (at trot). But he was (is) beautiful, jumped a 10, had a great canter, and was a dead easy ride. I had judges ask me to buy him as I left the ring. We just did the best we could with his trot and he even pulled some ribbons in Florida in the hacks. Remember the hunters CAN be subjective, and if the judge likes them enough, somethings can be slightly overlooked. I mean he never WON a hack, but sometimes just pulled a low ribbon, enough to put him at the top of the division. :winkgrin:

Seal Harbor
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:18 PM
If you plan on showing him in the a/os you have to trot in your courtesy circle. For rated divisions, whether its before you start your course or after the last jump you need to demonstrate soundness at the trot on course. Movement is factor in but most of the time its whoever puts in the best round that usually wins. I think at your bigger shows like devon and indoors movement and suitability come more into play since most people should be able to lay down a good trip.
What? They jog the A/O's for ribbons, they have to, just like every other A rated division.

What horse shows tell you that you must trot on the courtesy circle? Show me the rule that states that.


HU132 Soundness.
All horses must be serviceably sound. All horses being considered for an award must be jogged for soundness with rider dismounted. In classes restricted to junior riders, a junior must jog the animal for soundness. (Exception: Under Saddle classes, unrated classes and classes at Local Competitions.) Horses that are not serviceably sound are ineligible for an
award, including under saddle classes

The trot on the courtesy circle is not going to doom this horse. Walking in and striking off at the canter works as well. The ones who are fabulous movers at the trot do trot on the courtesy circle to show that off. The hunters are hard, the great riders hide the not so perfect stuff of their rides, starting at the courtesy circle.

ExJumper
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:19 PM
Walk into the ring, canter, jump, walk, and exit. Don't trot at all and you'll be fine.

Will a better mover who jumps just as well and finds good distances beat you? Sure. But the way things shake out I really wouldn't worry about it. There are four times the o/f classes as there are u/s. I'd rather have a good jumper than a good mover -- assuming I can't afford both, which I can't!

ExJumper
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:20 PM
If you plan on showing him in the a/os you have to trot in your courtesy circle. For rated divisions, whether its before you start your course or after the last jump you need to demonstrate soundness at the trot on course. Movement is factor in but most of the time its whoever puts in the best round that usually wins. I think at your bigger shows like devon and indoors movement and suitability come more into play since most people should be able to lay down a good trip.

I don't believe that this is true. You trot in the jog and THAT is where you show soundness. And you still don't have to be a good mover -- you just have to be a sound bad mover.

magnolia73
Jun. 7, 2011, 01:29 PM
Most horses have one thing keeping them from being the perfect hunter. I would imagine in the best company, if you have 6 horses that go in and float a trot circle, to 8 perfect jumps with a stunning canter, you'll get beaten. How often does that happen? Probably depends on where you show. But i doubt you'd be an embarassment to your barn just because you did the hunters on a horse that moves like crap.

But what a nice fun horse to own!

supershorty628
Jun. 7, 2011, 02:21 PM
We had a horse at Benchmark for a while who is a godawful mover - all the knee action in the world. He was sold a few months ago and showed down at WEF with Scott Stewart, got a tricolor in the conformation hunters (and did the derby, but had a heartbreaking rail at the last fence). His jump made up for his movement.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5qO_Dsw8nE

RunningwaterWBs
Jun. 7, 2011, 02:54 PM
Can someone give a video link to a GOOD hunter mover -- including the trot -- please. I breed WBs for dressage and I've been told today's hunter has a bit of suspension and more dressage-y gaits, but I'm not getting that from this thread. Please educate me.

supershorty628
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ2fLUuIPIk This is a pony, but one of the best movers I've ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKaLwvIOCg Rumba is a lovely mover (you see his trot towards the end of the round when he's heading out of the ring).

wanderlust
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:07 PM
Like the others said, if he has the hunter look, can walk the lines and has a good jump, not to worry if he moves like an eggbeater/carthorse. Aluminum shoes will level some of that out. Just don't hack him unless you need the points and the class is small.

trubandloki
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:13 PM
Walk into the ring, canter, jump, walk, and exit. Don't trot at all and you'll be fine.


I agree with this.

RunningwaterWBs
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:15 PM
Thanks! And Supershorty, that pony is adorable!

wanderlust
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:19 PM
Can someone give a video link to a GOOD hunter mover -- including the trot -- please. I breed WBs for dressage and I've been told today's hunter has a bit of suspension and more dressage-y gaits, but I'm not getting that from this thread. Please educate me. More suspension and swing through their body, yes, but not more knee action (what most people think of as "dressage-y).

Here's a 4yo that is a lovely mover.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ExchangeHJ#p/u/47/tfZlYXsL3As

And here's a more seasoned one that I absolutely love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aho-9mvUdY

Big_Grey_hunter
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:23 PM
Can someone give a video link to a GOOD hunter mover -- including the trot -- please. I breed WBs for dressage and I've been told today's hunter has a bit of suspension and more dressage-y gaits, but I'm not getting that from this thread. Please educate me.

You want suspension, reach, and power. You don't want the knee action or lift in front and back that a good dressage mover has.

Here's Crown point. His trot is absolutely stunning. He is a freak of a mover, most hunters can't move like that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA

Here's another fantastic mover. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ2fLUuIPIk

Here's Jsalem's horse winning the undersaddle at devon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqsqykQlcVY

Peggy
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:54 PM
Walk into the ring, canter, jump, walk, and exit. Don't trot at all and you'll be fine.

Will a better mover who jumps just as well and finds good distances beat you? Sure. But the way things shake out I really wouldn't worry about it. There are four times the o/f classes as there are u/s. I'd rather have a good jumper than a good mover -- assuming I can't afford both, which I can't!

This is pretty much the story of my life. As my trainer says, please do NOT trot. I got to show a horse who was a very good mover while mine was laid up and it was a bit of an adjustment to not only trot, but also to plan an entrance that showed off, rather than hid, the trot.

I figure the hack is only one class. I'd rather have one that is pleasant to jump. I can afford a good jumper who is a correct mover, but not also a pretty mover.

Heineken
Jun. 7, 2011, 04:07 PM
My retired jr/ao hunter moves like a sewing machine at the trot. BUT he has a great canter and a good jump. We always did just fine...even got some low hack ribbons in good company. He was a jack of all trades like yours and at 24 is still cantering figure 8's with flying changes in his field.

RunningwaterWBs
Jun. 7, 2011, 05:38 PM
This conversation is really interesting! Thanks for all of the examples.
To open another can of worms, but relevent since some have mentioned cost:
What does good movement add to the worth of a hunter? What does bad movement take away?

SkipChange
Jun. 7, 2011, 05:46 PM
Oh don't worry I'll be sticking with walk-canter, no need to show them his trot. I suppose if the class is tiny he might as well hack, but my feelings really won't be hurt when he's dead last in every hack. Love all the videos of good movers, too bad my guy can't learn to move like that!

He's still young (almost 8), but he'd make a great kid's horse before too long. He's such a pleasure to ride. We'll be doing the 1.10 Adult Jumpers this weekend, but maybe in July (we have 3 weeks of shows) we'll have a go at some real hunters! I'll try to get a video for y'all if we do. :D

Hansiska--Good question, I'll be interested in those answers too, even though my guy is most definitely NOT for sale at the moment.

xxreddxheaddxx
Jun. 7, 2011, 09:02 PM
you could always do both...

mroades
Jun. 7, 2011, 09:14 PM
If you plan on showing him in the a/os you have to trot in your courtesy circle. For rated divisions, whether its before you start your course or after the last jump you need to demonstrate soundness at the trot on course. Movement is factor in but most of the time its whoever puts in the best round that usually wins. I think at your bigger shows like devon and indoors movement and suitability come more into play since most people should be able to lay down a good trip.
umm, no you don't

meupatdoes
Jun. 7, 2011, 09:23 PM
I saw Louise Serio doing the Regulars at WEF on one that had a really stair-climby canter, but it jumped a freakin' 11.5 and won every o/f trip.
Last in the hack but still Champion so who cares.

snaffle635
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:20 PM
I saw Louise Serio doing the Regulars at WEF on one that had a really stair-climby canter, but it jumped a freakin' 11.5 and won every o/f trip.
Last in the hack but still Champion so who cares.

I recently heard that to be champion, you have to show in the hack. Is that true? (meaning, if you had enough points to be champ without the hack, you still have to show in it to get the champ ribbon) Anyone know? I browsed through the usef rules but didn't see anything on this.

Peggy
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:34 PM
I recently heard that to be champion, you have to show in the hack. Is that true? (meaning, if you had enough points to be champ without the hack, you still have to show in it to get the champ ribbon) Anyone know? I browsed through the usef rules but didn't see anything on this.
Nope. It's kind of the opposite in the sense that only the four horses with the most points o/f have their u/s points count. But the show does have to offer an u/s class. And, in the event of a tie for champion they look first at points over fences to break it and then do a hack-off if needed to break the tie.

Seal Harbor
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:34 PM
I recently heard that to be champion, you have to show in the hack. Is that true? (meaning, if you had enough points to be champ without the hack, you still have to show in it to get the champ ribbon) Anyone know? I browsed through the usef rules but didn't see anything on this.

No you do not. There are rules on breaking ties for the championship but you do not have to show in the hack class.

HU149 Eligibility.
1. General.
a. The Champion and Reserve Champion titles are awarded to the top two of the four horses that acquired the most points performing over a regulation course with obstacles at the full height required in the section in which shown, except under the provisions of HU112. In addition to these points, only these four horses, receive half points for ribbons won in Model classes and full points for ribbons won in one Under Saddle class. Exception: High Performance and Performance Working Hunter sections with three classes receive half points for the under saddle class, see HU106. EC 4/18/11 Effective immediately
b. The prize list must state the numbers of the full point and half point classes countingtowards the Championship in each section.

snaffle635
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:35 PM
Thanks, Seal!

SWL9
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:42 PM
2 out of 2 of my hunters have been bad movers and I would say it barely matters over fences. My newest hunter has a ton of hock action and a worse canter than trot unfortunately but that doesn't stop us from marking 86s and is only a bummer when we need points under saddle for champion/reserve. Of course when showing against junior hunters like Safari and Small Affair it would be nice to have a huge floaty fancy canter but it sounds like for what your horse would be doing it wouldn't bother me a bit if I were trying him.

DMK
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:44 PM
snaffle, the confusion might be that you have to "enter" the hack - you can't pay for just o/f classes at the national rated divisions (maybe also zone rated divisions as well), it's the division or bust. But just because you pay for it doesn't mean you need to waste your time entering it if you have a sewing machine.

Speaking of which, the horse in my profile pic is a bonafide Singer Deluxe. Or a Maytag washing Machine, not sure which. We've had a joke about him for years; he adores his knees. They are pretty, pretty knees, which is why he picks them up so high when he trots and canters, so he can see them. Fortunately he also likes get them right around his eyeballs over the jump. We won a decent amount in good company and I'd trade the hack winner for his jump any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Assuming we all find 8, sure the horse that jumps as well as him and is a better mover is going to beat him (rightfully so), but that kind of horse isn't in every barn, ya know?

snaffle635
Jun. 7, 2011, 11:01 PM
[QUOTE=DMK;5651783]snaffle, the confusion might be that you have to "enter" the hack - you can't pay for just o/f classes at the national rated divisions (maybe also zone rated divisions as well), it's the division or bust. But just because you pay for it doesn't mean you need to waste your time entering it if you have a sewing machine.
QUOTE]


Thanks for clarifying. My girlfriend's horse won a bunch of classes in the Lows at St Louis a few years ago, but they wouldn't give her champion because she didn't enter him in the hack. I see the distinction now between entering and showing.

stickwithit
Jun. 7, 2011, 11:37 PM
I showed an eq/jumper horse in the hunters down in Wellington and we ribboned in a division with 30+ people. He had a ton of knee action, but jumped a ten and we laid down some solid courses.

My advice is to pay attention to his turnout. Make sure your horse's coat is glowing, put hoof polish on before you go into the ring, ect. Part of the reason I got noticed on my non-hunter horse is because he was well turned out and flashy - he had a lot of white on his legs and lots of dapples. It'll help him stand out, and there are few things that a hunter judge likes more then a shiny horse :)

Good luck!

RugBug
Jun. 7, 2011, 11:50 PM
Yeah! I've always thought with your horse's jump that you should do some hunters. He's so tasty...

DMK: am I reading your post right? You'd rather own the hack winner than another like Robbie? (all things said...let's have both jump and movement, but even though I love the hack...I would sacrifice it for the jump)

Renn/aissance
Jun. 8, 2011, 12:13 AM
When my sister's horse jumps around well, he jumps a 9 with a nice Children's Hunter look to him and a good attitude and he pins. They don't trot into the ring for a very good reason. In fact, if they had their druthers, they wouldn't trot at all. ;) If there are more than six in the class they don't bother to hack because it's a pretty fair bet there won't be a worse mover. But that's all right, because he gets amply rewarded for eight good fences.

We also had one that was a squirrel over fences but would win the hack. (He'd have won the jumping, too, if he'd have stopped spooking at the flowers.) All told, I'd rather have the sewing machine that goes around well than the daisy-cutter that doesn't.

Stellar_moves
Jun. 8, 2011, 12:36 AM
If he's a bad mover, just do the eq classes? I don't know too much about the A circuit hunters, but give it a try! If he likes to do it, try it! He looks really pretty in his picture :). Do you have any videos of him?

SkipChange
Jun. 8, 2011, 12:52 AM
Thanks Rugbug :)

If I do him in the 2nd years I doubt there will be many in the class, I think Greens only had 3 in it last year at these shows. If there's less than 6 in the class I might as well hack like you said Renn/aissance.

Can he do the greens or AO's AND the Child/Adult jumper classic at the same show? I kind of don't see why not...

Justice
Jun. 8, 2011, 09:32 AM
Winning the hack is highly overrated, IMO. As many other posters have stated, there simply aren't that many that jump great and have great movement. I would never let it stop me from showing a great jumper.

Keep in mind that there are other considerations during the hack as well. I have seen horses that were clearly not the best movers in the class win time and time again after fabulous over fences trips, and hacking around with beautiful expression. The real Justice is a great example of this - he's still winning his hacks with a little kid at 14, simply because he looks the part and has a fantastic canter, and at this point in his career can hack himself.

RunningwaterWBs
Jun. 8, 2011, 10:02 AM
I'm a mostly dressage breeder but I have a new mare who is also very good at jumping. I'm still trying to get a handle on what people want in a hunter in terms of movement. Here's a horse I bred (and sold -- this is not advertising). I had people inquire about him as a hunter based on his bloodlines, but sold him as a dressage horse because of his lofty gaits, esp the trot. What do you all think of him as a hunter? Would he be laughed out of the ring for his gaits?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y93bKlwp_JY

Also, can you tell me how you think movement affects price, say for a green-broke hunter prospect or a horse with a year of showing under its belt?

DMK
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:29 AM
DMK: am I reading your post right? You'd rather own the hack winner than another like Robbie? (all things said...let's have both jump and movement, but even though I love the hack...I would sacrifice it for the jump)

LOL, spend all day working, then doing barn and yard work until 9PM, realize you haven't eaten all day, sit down at 9:30PM with a glass of wine and some dinner... well maybe you won't get your thoughts in correct order. I totally reversed that! Robbie, I'd take another Robbie any day of the week!

magnolia73
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:38 AM
How are hacks judged? It seems like by virtue of being a hunter, all the horses have the nice canter- the big step, the lovely tempo. Then the winner always has a spectacular trot. Do the canter and walk quality really come into play? I know manners do, and that relaxed way of going.

But here is a class:

#1- Walk is an 8, Trot is a 6, Canter is a 10 - 24 overall
#2- Walk is a 5, Trot is a 10, Canter is an 8- 23 overall
#3 Walk is a 8, Trot is an 8, Canter is an 8- 24 overall

It seems like in just about any class, given equal manners etc. #2 wins.

ExJumper
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:43 AM
How are hacks judged? It seems like by virtue of being a hunter, all the horses have the nice canter- the big step, the lovely tempo. Then the winner always has a spectacular trot. Do the canter and walk quality really come into play? I know manners do, and that relaxed way of going.

But here is a class:

#1- Walk is an 8, Trot is a 6, Canter is a 10 - 24 overall
#2- Walk is a 5, Trot is a 10, Canter is an 8- 23 overall
#3 Walk is a 8, Trot is an 8, Canter is an 8- 24 overall

It seems like in just about any class, given equal manners etc. #2 wins.

I have read and been told by good judges that the walk and canter are actually the most important gaits. The trot may be flashy, but doesn't indicate the quality that the walk and canter does.

But because the trot is flashy, it gets lots of attention.

MHM
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:50 AM
The canter is the most important gait.

The horse jumps from the canter, so it is the gait that makes the most difference in a hunter's ability to do his job well.

If there are two horses who canter equally well in the under saddle class, some judges will use the trot as a tie-breaker.

To the OP, if the horse is a very good jumper, and does his job well, you should be in the thick of things at all but the most competitive shows, unless he really moves like a Hackney.

magnolia73
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:57 AM
So what is a good hunter canter?
Scribing for dressage judges- I can recognize the good dressage canter- it has some "jump" to it.

For hunters, I can feel a good canter- ground covering, smooth, not downhill, effortless and unchanging/consistent (and if it lengthens/shortens, it is not visible). It seems like most hunters, regardless of the trot, have *that* quality to their canter, or they kind of stick out as not hunters.

But what seperates the canter of say, the hack winner at Devon and 5th place in the local childrens hunter hack? Say they both have that smooth, metronome lope.

RugBug
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:59 AM
How are hacks judged? It seems like by virtue of being a hunter, all the horses have the nice canter- the big step, the lovely tempo.

Ah, but look at the video supershorty posted. Canter is m'eh on that one, even while having a big step and lovely tempo, but WOW! what a jump...and the mechanics of his jump are just right for a hunter (brings front-end up, settles onto his hocks and then pushes over the jump). On the ones that don't canter so well, you have to make sure the other elements (tempo, step, etc) are good.

moonriverfarm
Jun. 8, 2011, 12:01 PM
jsalem, your horse is just delish!

findeight
Jun. 8, 2011, 12:09 PM
Skip...I've seen alot of pics you have posted of your horse and he canNOT be that bad a mover.

The hack is overrated as a stand alone class, it means NOTHING unless it is coupled with good rounds over fences. The Hunter division is really about Champion and Reserve that reflect consistency in multiple rounds, not a single spectacular trip or hack.

Nobody brags about a blue in the hack and nothing over fences (and that happens). But they get real proud relating good ribbons for good trips over fences and nothing in the hack.

Because Hunters Jump and are primarily centered on Jumping, not a spectacular trot that might get them the hack win at the expense of the kind of canter that produces a winning jump.

Oh, the walk???? After seeing them all in at least 2 and maybe 3 jump rounds before the hack? Going in and out of the ring? Doing all 3 gaits ramping up and coming back down again? That's when they mark their card. It's not the same as seeing 30 horses for the first time in a mistake and out Pleasure class.

Go show your horse Skip.

2DogsFarm
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:12 PM
Un-Hunterly movement never seemed to affect my Vernon's placings in Hunter divisions.

Honestly, he hated the hacks.
If we did 3 divisions, when the time rolled around to do the 3rd U/S class his ears were pinned the entire time.
>>
:mad: < Vernon
Way to show a Pleasant Way of Going, Vern :rolleyes:

Still he was a 10 O/F, so our placings there earned him the Champions & Reserves.
Caveat: we never did more than B shows & it was a zillion years ago (early to mid-90s) so take that into consideration.
Judging may have shifted during elapsed time.....

SkipChange
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:40 PM
Findeight--Personally, I think his trot is adorable. But everyone was baffled when I said I was showing him in hunters last weekend. They all said, "you're joking right?" A kid said to me, "I think I know what's wrong with your horse, he bends his legs too much." :rolleyes: I firmly replied, "there is nothing *wrong* with him!"

We'll still have lots of work to do if he's actually going to be a nice hunter. He was fresh as a spring chicken today after two days off plus the fact that it was a chilly 93 degrees. But glad to have the general consent that his movement doesn't really matter that much as far as over fences and what I plan to do are concerned. Off to ride and train!

magnolia73
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:44 PM
Ah, but look at the video supershorty posted. Canter is m'eh on that one, even while having a big step and lovely tempo, but WOW! what a jump...

Yeah- I see what you mean- he still has the lovely tempo and consistency, but much more knee action and "jump" than Rhumba. And that walk is pretty unathletic too (on Supersorty's horse). But very nice jump from that canter. And still possesses that non-chalance that a good hunter has.

Rhumba kind of glides.

DMK
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:55 PM
Rhumba kind of glides.

That is the essence of it. A daisy cutter has the most efficient way of traveling from point A to B, energy is not wasted going up and down, but forward.

You can still have a good rhythmic canter and not be a daisy cutter (obviously Totilas spends a LOT of energy yanking those knees to his chin, but I suspect a metranome would have nothing on him).

As for the hack, I think the trot does get to shine there (more so with some judges than others), if for no other reason than the canter was the star of the show for the other four classes. But that 4 to 1 ratio is why you really should not pick a hunter based on the quality of his trot.

Sing Mia Song
Jun. 8, 2011, 02:17 PM
You can improve the trot. Really, you can. It's a lot harder to improve the canter.

My old horse insulted the ground at the trot, but had the most lovely, rhythmic, sweeping canter. I was actually at an advantage in a big class because (being a plain bay) I could bury him behind other horses at the trot, then flaunt him at the canter.

I'd be the first in the ring for the hack, canter to the opposite end of the ring, watch the judge get situated, what for him or her to look up, then canter again. Once they saw him, they were sure to seek him out when we cantered in the actual class.

I knew I'd scored when I got old RJ staring at him. ;) He won that hack.

doublesstable
Jun. 8, 2011, 05:13 PM
Walk into the ring, canter, jump, walk, and exit. Don't trot at all and you'll be fine.

This can work but doesn't always.... In a Hunter round once I didn't trot after the course and was actually "asked" to trot my horse. We did win the class - but when they asked I thought "oh my is my horse lame or something?"

The big deal like others have said is the pace and consistency of the canter, quality of the jump - getting your distances and making it look nice. A fancy trot prior and after is just an added bonus.

I understand this question because I have been racking my brain about which to do with one of my horses (Jumpers or Hunters).

ynl063w
Jun. 8, 2011, 07:17 PM
We had a horse at Benchmark for a while who is a godawful mover - all the knee action in the world. He was sold a few months ago and showed down at WEF with Scott Stewart, got a tricolor in the conformation hunters (and did the derby, but had a heartbreaking rail at the last fence). His jump made up for his movement.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5qO_Dsw8nE

I watched that derby online and remember groaning when that rail came down - what a shame that was!

I just happened to tune in to Upperville today right when this horse was going in the regular conformation division (Scott Stewart was not the rider). While he is clearly not the best mover ever, I didn't see anything at all offensive about his movement. He looked every bit the part of a top class hunter and went around great with today's rider (score was high 80s for the class I saw).

ExJumper
Jun. 8, 2011, 07:21 PM
This can work but doesn't always.... In a Hunter round once I didn't trot after the course and was actually "asked" to trot my horse.

How was this done, exactly? Did the judge yell out at you from his box? Did he radio the gate to tell you to trot? I can't really see how this could work...

I'm not doubting you, but I've been to a lot of A rated shows and there are a lot of people who don't trot their horses. Myself included. I've never seen or heard of a judge demanding a trot.

ynl063w
Jun. 8, 2011, 07:34 PM
How was this done, exactly?

Glad you asked because I was confused about this too. If it was a rated division, the jog takes care of potential soundness issues after the class is over. I also don't understand why the word asked was put in quotes.

STA
Jun. 8, 2011, 08:28 PM
I had a A/O hunter from the jumper ring. He moved like a sewing machine, but qualified for Devon in 4 months. I showed him in the Junior A/O Classic at Lake Placid one year - he was the only A/O horse called back for the second round. A good jumper is a good jumper.

doublesstable
Jun. 9, 2011, 01:05 AM
How was this done, exactly? Did the judge yell out at you from his box? Did he radio the gate to tell you to trot? I can't really see how this could work...

I'm not doubting you, but I've been to a lot of A rated shows and there are a lot of people who don't trot their horses. Myself included. I've never seen or heard of a judge demanding a trot.


I had just finished my round and came to a walk from the canter and started making my way to the exit gate - the judge was sitting near the announcers booth; the announcer over the pa said "rider please trot your horse"... so I did.... then exited the arena. It was a Hunter class.

I don't know why that day I came to a walk, it was kind of funny too because I usually trot to start and trot to end because my horse has a nice trot... and in the eq I will sit the trot...

doublesstable
Jun. 9, 2011, 01:07 AM
Glad you asked because I was confused about this too. If it was a rated division, the jog takes care of potential soundness issues after the class is over. I also don't understand why the word asked was put in quotes.

I put asked in quotes because I was asked to trot after my round.

karlymacrae
Jun. 9, 2011, 03:06 AM
I had just finished my round and came to a walk from the canter and started making my way to the exit gate - the judge was sitting near the announcers booth; the announcer over the pa said "rider please trot your horse"... so I did.... then exited the arena. It was a Hunter class.

I don't know why that day I came to a walk, it was kind of funny too because I usually trot to start and trot to end because my horse has a nice trot... and in the eq I will sit the trot...

You were probably just going too slow :lol:

doublesstable
Jun. 9, 2011, 03:44 AM
You were probably just going too slow :lol:

:lol: probably yeah - funny!

I just came from canter to walk (not even a few steps of walk) and they asked... so hmmm.... not like I was meandering at the walk around the arena. :lol:

Seal Harbor
Jun. 9, 2011, 04:56 AM
I had just finished my round and came to a walk from the canter and started making my way to the exit gate - the judge was sitting near the announcers booth; the announcer over the pa said "rider please trot your horse"... so I did.... then exited the arena. It was a Hunter class.

I don't know why that day I came to a walk, it was kind of funny too because I usually trot to start and trot to end because my horse has a nice trot... and in the eq I will sit the trot...

Was it a rated division with a jog for ribbons? I'm asking because if it was not then perhaps the judge thought they saw something not quite right about your horse and needed a better check, they don't have to use the lame ones in the divisions that don't jog for ribbons. No saying your horse was lame but the judge may have thought they saw something strange.

The rated divisions that jog for ribbons must jog without a rider on their backs for soundness, they can not have you trot in or out of the ring and use that for a soundness check, they must jog the horses with the riders dismounted. That is the rule.

doublesstable
Jun. 9, 2011, 05:25 AM
Was it a rated division with a jog for ribbons? I'm asking because if it was not then perhaps the judge thought they saw something not quite right about your horse and needed a better check, they don't have to use the lame ones in the divisions that don't jog for ribbons. No saying your horse was lame but the judge may have thought they saw something strange.

The rated divisions that jog for ribbons must jog without a rider on their backs for soundness, they can not have you trot in or out of the ring and use that for a soundness check, they must jog the horses with the riders dismounted. That is the rule.

Yeah it was rated and no jog in for ribbons.... I did win the class so my horse must not have been lame... :)

At the time I assumed it was for a soundness check and movement.. Maybe the judge had a few horses at the top of her/his card and wanted to make a final choice.

I did not ask the show management why they asked for trot..... So I will never know but it did and I guess it can happen....

ponymom64
Jun. 9, 2011, 09:39 AM
Yeah it was rated and no jog in for ribbons.... I did win the class so my horse must not have been lame... :)

At the time I assumed it was for a soundness check and movement.. Maybe the judge had a few horses at the top of her/his card and wanted to make a final choice.

I did not ask the show management why they asked for trot..... So I will never know but it did and I guess it can happen....

I have seen horses that are not sound at the trot be sent into the ring with instructions to walk and step straight into canter so that the judge would not see a lame horse. Perhaps this particular judge has seen that happen, too.

findeight
Jun. 9, 2011, 12:16 PM
What does good movement add to the worth of a hunter? What does bad movement take away?

I didn't see this answered. If horse A has a 10 jump and is a 10 mover and horse B has a 10 jump and is a 6 mover (any lower then that gets into varying degrees of lamness)? And both are equal in all other departments (attitude, sex, size, attractiveness, fancy factor)?

Horse A is 6 figures, horse B mid 5 figures. So it can add a zero to the end of that price.
Obviously this can vary quite a bit but the 10 mover with a 10 jump gets the hack points so is your Champion and has a shot at HOTY. Your 6 mover may be consistently good and end up Reserve despite no hack points.

At the top level shows, usually both Champion and Reserve will get the hack points so alot of times that 6 mover can stay at the somewhat smaller circuits and do better.

And, really, OP here is talking the 3'3" ammies and is not going to be facing Rhumba and/or a bunch of top name Pros. She will do just fine even without the hack.

Gil's Girl
Jun. 9, 2011, 12:21 PM
Had an eggbeater mover that did fantastic in the hunters - as long as he had a good, forward canter, he jumped cute as hell and would beat the great movers over fences. Sometimes horses that seem super "set" in a certain discipline really suprise you, and end up being stars somewhere else!

SkipChange
Jul. 24, 2011, 08:09 PM
***UPDATE***
He was fantastic at his first A shows as a hunter. Last week was learning week and he was good, but we still had things that needed to be smoothed out. We did 3'3" performance and 3'6" Jr/AOs and while he was good we got 2nd, 3rds, and 4ths. This weekend we did 3'6" Performance hunters and 3'6" Jr/AOs and he was amazing. Won the Performance Handy out of 5 and won a Jr/AO class out of 7! The Jr/AO win was second hunter/first classic and scored an 83 and we got a 77 in the second classic round. We were second in the classic by one point!

He's officially a hunter for life. I'm looking for some smaller derbies to do him in too. I really think he has the scope for the regular workings if I get braver, the 3'6" might as well be cross rails. I would have shown him in the 2nd year greens at 3'9" but no one else had a green or regular to fill it.

He was last or second to last in every hack, but I fully expected it and that's totally OK with me.

karlymacrae
Jul. 24, 2011, 08:57 PM
Yay! Any pictures? You guys did great :)

MintHillFarm
Jul. 24, 2011, 09:10 PM
I used to show an awful mover in the large Junior Hunters over fences, and skip the hack if I was trying to save a few dollars at any given show. He jumped beautifully though, so despite our mainly skipping the hack, we won a year end award ribbon in a highly competitive area (Zone 2). So I wouldn't hesitate to do it.


Of course, this was 22 years ago... I don't know if it would still fly.

About the same time as you, 20 years ago, I had a young horse that had a terrible trot. He was supposed to do the small jumper stuff with me, but one summer horse show the mud was too deep for my liking as he had an old bow. That day changed his career and from then on he only did the hunters.

Luckily, he had an awesome canter, like a metronome. Not a good moving canter, but so rhythmic and with a huge stride.

He too walked the lines and had a lovely expression...and we won a lot! Got good ribbons in great company, even at WEF. And the Eq was easy for him too, we won the CHJA Adult Medal Finals in 1991.

We never, ever trotted an opening circle. We'd walk in (he had a great walk too) and pick up the canter where appropriate. I have always measured others I have had by that lovely canter and cheerful expression!

MintHillFarm
Jul. 24, 2011, 09:17 PM
***UPDATE***
He was fantastic at his first A shows as a hunter. Last week was learning week and he was good, but we still had things that needed to be smoothed out. We did 3'3" performance and 3'6" Jr/AOs and while he was good we got 2nd, 3rds, and 4ths. This weekend we did 3'6" Performance hunters and 3'6" Jr/AOs and he was amazing. Won the Performance Handy out of 5 and won a Jr/AO class out of 7! The Jr/AO win was second hunter/first classic and scored an 83 and we got a 77 in the second classic round. We were second in the classic by one point!

He's officially a hunter for life. I'm looking for some smaller derbies to do him in too. I really think he has the scope for the regular workings if I get braver, the 3'6" might as well be cross rails. I would have shown him in the 2nd year greens at 3'9" but no one else had a green or regular to fill it.

He was last or second to last in every hack, but I fully expected it and that's totally OK with me.

Congrats on your great hunter performances!

The one I described in my post only did one u/s in all the years I showed him. That was at the Zone Finals and we too were last! But we won 2 o/f classes there.

Frankly, I never gave it much thought about the u/s classes we didn't do. We just sat those out:)

SkipChange
Jul. 24, 2011, 09:35 PM
Congrats on your great hunter performances!

The one I described in my post only did one u/s in all the years I showed him. That was at the Zone Finals and we too were last! But we won 2 o/f classes there.

Frankly, I never gave it much thought about the u/s classes we didn't do. We just sat those out:)

It's actually cheaper for me to just go ahead and hack. If you pay per class is $40/class ($160 for 4 O/F). The division entry is only $150. And if you place at all you get money back since it's A rated divisions. It was paying out like $50, $30, $25, $15, $10 for Performance Hunters and $60, $40, $30, $15, $5 for the AO's for each class.

Here's a picture
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281420_2282145537248_1357136548_2716079_5048951_n. jpg
Like I said, the 3'6" is very easy for him.

I braid him myself too. :)

LeandraB
Jul. 24, 2011, 09:54 PM
you guys look AWESOME! go for the 3'9" girlfriend you look way more solid than alot of 3'6" riders out there!!!

Pony'tude
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:07 PM
What a BEAUTIFUL picture of both of you!!! He has the lovliest expression on his face :yes: I'd say you made the right decision.....he looks like a born hunter! :)

Seal Harbor
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:35 PM
He looks fab!! I love his expression!

magnolia73
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:37 PM
There ya go! Fantastic and he looks like he was born to look cute over a jump!

Long Spot
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:47 PM
Me thinks he's enjoying his new job. Wowza, he's a cutie.

Really well done. Keep us posted on how he's doing, he's a real doll and you guys make a super cute hunter pair.

RugBug
Jul. 24, 2011, 11:45 PM
Excellent news! I'm so glad you're doing the hunters with him. I've loved him since I first saw pictures of him and was all drooly for the hunter possibilities. He looks F-A-N-T-A-S-T-I-C! :yes:

Are you going to be happy in the hunters?

SkipChange
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:10 AM
Thanks everyone!


Excellent news! I'm so glad you're doing the hunters with him. I've loved him since I first saw pictures of him and was all drooly for the hunter possibilities. He looks F-A-N-T-A-S-T-I-C! :yes:

Are you going to be happy in the hunters?

Yes, I am so happy! I was hugging his neck walking out of the ring and then they announced my score :D. This week was one of my best horse shows ever. He is so much happier and easier in the hunters. There is no fighting or arguing over a distance. I loop the reins and canter to the first jump of the line. That's it. The distance just comes up. I wait a little down the lines if needed because he's got a huge step and can walk them even when they set them long. Ok I'll fess up that I left a stride out in my warm-up trip Friday of the first week. I also added down a line this week. But both looked great I was told! He's remarkably adjustable, which is great, I just have to be very aware of my aids.

I couldn't really see him going over 3'6" in the jumper ring without it getting difficult, but I could totally see him doing the 4ft workings (or at least derbies with 4ft options). My trainers were both thrilled with him and want him to stay a hunter. I was so proud when I overheard other trainers asking about him and complimenting his jump and scope.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:17 AM
**LIKE** Very nice! He looks great!

Jumpthemoon16
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:51 AM
SO cute! He looks phenomenal! Good luck!

CrimsonInClover
Jul. 25, 2011, 01:13 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281420_2282145537248_1357136548_2716079_5048951_n. jpg[/url]
Like I said, the 3'6" is very easy for him.

I braid him myself too. :)

He looks so happy!!! Congratulations!!

salymandar
Jul. 25, 2011, 07:44 AM
I am glad you had a great show, SkipChange!

I remember seeing some of your pictures, and maybe a video (?), a while back and thinking that he really wanted to be a hunter with a jump like that! So, he doesn't move so great. He has a fabulous jump and, if I remember, has a nice rhythm to the jumps. It is really great to hear that both you and he are transitioning to the hunter ring so nicely!

MintHillFarm
Jul. 25, 2011, 09:39 AM
It's actually cheaper for me to just go ahead and hack. If you pay per class is $40/class ($160 for 4 O/F). The division entry is only $150. And if you place at all you get money back since it's A rated divisions. It was paying out like $50, $30, $25, $15, $10 for Performance Hunters and $60, $40, $30, $15, $5 for the AO's for each class.

Here's a picture
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281420_2282145537248_1357136548_2716079_5048951_n. jpg
Like I said, the 3'6" is very easy for him.

I braid him myself too. :)

Right, I would pay for the division too and just opt not to hack...

Your guy jumps well! You have a nice A/O hunter for sure!

MintHillFarm
Jul. 25, 2011, 09:43 AM
Here is the one I wrote about - his expression is what I loved most:

http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv259/minthillfarm/Bill001.jpg

SkipChange
Jul. 25, 2011, 10:40 AM
Here is the one I wrote about - his expression is what I loved most:

http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv259/minthillfarm/Bill001.jpg

Oh gotcha about skipping the hack. I'm still young and energetic and entertained by hack classes. And I did WIN a hack class at a local show the weekend before the A's. If we're ever in huge classes I'll probably skip, but out of 8 and less I figure it can't hurt just to try.
Looks like your guy has a great canter! :)


Thanks everyone, he does have a nice rhythmic canter to see a distance out of and it is VERY comfortable. I've got a video of my 83 round, if I get it up I can post that too.

MHM
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:04 AM
If we're ever in huge classes I'll probably skip, but out of 8 and less I figure it can't hurt just to try.

If there are 8 in it and a couple of them make mistakes, you can still pick up a point or half a point towards being champion. ;)

Great picture- would love to see the video. :cool:

RyuEquestrian
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:38 AM
Our breeding philosophy regarding the hunters has always been to breed our hunter mares (who have oustanding jumping bloodlines) to hunter stallions who also are oustandingly well bred for the jumpers. Our reasoning: if all else fails, they will certainly be able to jump.

Look at the bloodlines of the following "Hunter" sires:
Cunningham (Cassini x Contender)
Crown Affair (Cor de la Bryere x Capitol I)
C-Quito (Olympic Parco x Latano)
Popeye K (Voltaire x Ronald)
Alla 'Czar (Zeus x Legaat)
Willemoes (Cantus x Wahnfried)

2011 Crown Affair Filly (http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b417/Sakuraim/La%20Czaritza/267591_10150664651855372_873625371_19668745_485780 4_n.jpg)
2010 Cunningham colt (http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b417/Sakuraim/Campai/Jackiephotos7510160.jpg)

SkipChange
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:39 AM
Here's the video :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_UwQGGt70M

jetsmom
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:52 AM
You guys look great!

RyuEquestrian
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:56 AM
Here's the video :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_UwQGGt70M

He looks fantastic! Congratulations :-)

SkipChange
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:06 PM
He looks fantastic! Congratulations :-)

Thanks! Re: breeding--sounds like a good plan to me! He's registered Canadian Warmblood by the Holsteiner stallion Silberpfeil. From what I understand the mare and stallion were both imported from Switzerland to Canada. Someone brought him to the U.S. as a 2 year old and I picked him up at 5.5 (he was jumping 2'6" a little bit, not even full courses). I have his papers but couldn't quite get his whole pedigree to fill in correctly http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/silko5 he does have Cor de la Bryere in him a few generations back.

RyuEquestrian
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
I know of Silverpfeil from when I rode in Canada some summers ago. What is his registered show name, I'd be happy to do some research for you to see if I can get those blanks filled in.

SkipChange
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:24 PM
Yeah, you know of him? They probably weren't going for a hunter when they bred him :). I don't have all his papers with me right now, but I remember when I put him on there allbreed disagreed with some of the horses I was trying to put in and I just didn't want to fight it. But I can try to get the rest of it later

RyuEquestrian
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:31 PM
I have a more in depth database in which I can try to look him up. What is his registered show name and do you know the name of his dam and year of birth?

MHM
Jul. 25, 2011, 01:11 PM
Here's the video :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_UwQGGt70M

Very nice- congrats! :)

Summit Springs Farm
Jul. 25, 2011, 08:46 PM
Congrats, you both look amazingly happy and awesome! The judge at that show is a friend of mine and I'm sure you deserved your score cause she can be tough!!!
He does have alittle knee action, this is probably a stupid question, but is he in aluminum shoes?
I see lots of blue ribbons and champions in your future!!!! Congrats again!

Hunter Mom
Jul. 25, 2011, 09:03 PM
WOW! Now that is a boy who doesn't want to be a hunter - he needs to be a hunter. I can see why you got an 83! Looking forward to seeing more vidoes of amazing hunter rounds from you guys.

SkipChange
Jul. 25, 2011, 09:48 PM
He does need to be a hunter Hunter Mom!


Congrats, you both look amazingly happy and awesome! The judge at that show is a friend of mine and I'm sure you deserved your score cause she can be tough!!!
He does have alittle knee action, this is probably a stupid question, but is he in aluminum shoes?
I see lots of blue ribbons and champions in your future!!!! Congrats again!

Thanks! He is in steels. My farrier doesn't think aluminums would improve him very much and he's pretty hard on his shoes (I ride a lot and trail ride a lot over rocky footing). I've asked my farrier many times if he could make him move any better but he always says "not if you want him to stay sound." My farrier and I lament weekly about his knee action, so I can certainly ask him about aluminums again. Heck he'd stay sound barefoot, but I'm pretty sure he'd still move like that.

TwoDreamRides
Jul. 26, 2011, 12:35 AM
SkipChange! I showed against you the week before your A Show foray!! I had the tall, solid bay "Just Press Start". Looking forward to seeing you at future shows!