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No Halo
Jun. 5, 2011, 11:37 PM
I just acquired an absolutely amazing OTTB.
His registered named is No Halo On Me. Born in 2005.

He was bought off a slaughter truck, basically. So, he did not come with his papers.
Besides refiling through JC, is there any way to track down barns, trainers, owners, ect to see if I can get his original papers.

He's a beautiful, handsome 17.2 hand light bay, with a crooked start, strip and snip. He has a pastern and a sock on the back, and an osselet and bad scarring on his front legs. He also has a white scar behind his ear were it was ripped off during training...

Anyways..... I just am looking for his papers before I refile!!

Thank you for all your help.

Also, I believe he is NY bred, and raced.

Langfuhr
Jun. 6, 2011, 12:10 AM
Your best bet is to contact Marcus Vitali and if theyre still on file with Suffolk, Paul Buckley would have to sign them over since hes the last owner of record, unless it was done so after your horse left their hands and assuming theres some sort of paper trail that u can provide

furlong47
Jun. 6, 2011, 01:20 AM
You need to track down the last owner as listed by Langfuhr. If they don't have the papers, you might have to follow the ownership trail until you find them. The only way to get papers reissued is to have the last owner write a signed statement about how the papers became lost. If they don't want to give you the papers or won't sign a statement for you then you're SOL. You have a gelding, so are papers really necessary?

brightskyfarm
Jun. 6, 2011, 05:40 AM
Yes hes a NY bred...amazingly, he won his last race out! Paul Buckley was the owner at the time.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?BORP=P&STYLE=EQB&DAY=D&tid=SUF&dt=07/06/2010&ctry=USA&race=8

You might try contacting Paul privately, simply asking and see what kind of response you get. Dealing with MV isnt always the easiest thing. As mentioned, hes a gelding.

You can print his race record, pedigree and frame those!~
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbHorseInfo.cfm?refno=7496070&registry=T
Pedigree>http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=7496070

I have a horse with Halo pedigree (grandsire dam side) with (slew as grand on sire side) and hes the sweetest horse Ive ever owned; soounds like yours --- lucky us, huh?

Your horse had 5 wins out of 42, so if you go through his race record to find whioch track photographer, maybe you can get a win picture.

No Halo
Jun. 6, 2011, 09:03 AM
Thank you!!!
Yes, he is a gelding, but I would like his papers anyways.... weird huh?

Bright - I guess we did get lucky!!! Although this guy seems to have a hard past, he's down right amazing... and so loving.

Any other advice is appreciated!

Thanks again!

No Halo
Jun. 6, 2011, 09:37 AM
How do I get contact information for Paul Buckley? Tried Google..

moonriverfarm
Jun. 6, 2011, 12:38 PM
Glad you got him. OTTBs are amazing, wonderful partners!

ptownevt
Jun. 6, 2011, 12:48 PM
One reason to need papers: to register a horse with the USDF in order to qualify for breed awards and to promote OTTBs.

brightskyfarm
Jun. 6, 2011, 03:33 PM
Absolutely right ptownevet!~
I do not purchase ANY retiring TB unless there are papers with no restrictions -- for just that reason -- my market usually does show or event and they are necessary in those cases. Many go on to race P-t-P's too.

Contact for PB should be on file at Suffolk (where he held an owners license). Call them and simply ask for contact info for PB, phone and address/email if they have it -- you dont need to explain why.
Phone: (617) 567-3900 >ask for the Licensing Office

No Halo, if I recall right, your horse raced last July, so papers are most likely still with Horse ID at Suffolk but it will require (owner?) trainer to secure them. (you absolutly cannot).

No Halo
Jun. 6, 2011, 04:24 PM
Thank you Bright!

No Halo
Jul. 6, 2011, 03:00 PM
Hi everyone.
So I finally had a few free minutes and called Suffolk. The licensing office wouldn't give me Paul's number, but they took mine And said they would call him and relay the message (somehow I don't think he'll call)
Then I talked to the racing office, and they said they don't have papers on file for horses last year.
Kinda at a loss.
Should I try calling JC? I read they are a pain to talk to sometimes.

What a joke.. can't people just sell horses with their papers?!

Anymore ideas would be great! Thank you.

pinkdiamondracing
Jul. 6, 2011, 03:23 PM
The JC isn't going to do anything for you-- if the last owner of record does not want to give you the papers, there is nothing you can do. I personally do not give papers on horses I retire and rehome, in order to ensure they never race again-- no papers, no race-- that simple.

No Halo
Jul. 6, 2011, 03:47 PM
People like myself, have no intentions on racing said horse... but want the papers for said horse.
Its kinda of irritating that people think they hold a horses papers even when they aren't owners anymore.

jenarby
Jul. 6, 2011, 04:58 PM
It's just the way it is. They don't HAVE to give up the papers if they don't want to. I knew of a trainer who didn't want to give them up on an older gelding. The buyer was a hunter show person who promised they had no intentions of ever racing that horse. A year or so later he showed up, back on the track under a new owner and broke down. THIS is why some trainers don't give up papers. If nothing else, if/when you reach the last trainer, ask for a COPY of the papers. At least then you can prove pedigree on him for shows.

hrsmstr
Jul. 6, 2011, 05:04 PM
No Halo, did I read your original post correctly? Is your horse missing an EAR from a training accident?

Oh man. That must have hurt.

danceronice
Jul. 6, 2011, 08:47 PM
It's just the way it is. They don't HAVE to give up the papers if they don't want to. I knew of a trainer who didn't want to give them up on an older gelding. The buyer was a hunter show person who promised they had no intentions of ever racing that horse. A year or so later he showed up, back on the track under a new owner and broke down. THIS is why some trainers don't give up papers. If nothing else, if/when you reach the last trainer, ask for a COPY of the papers. At least then you can prove pedigree on him for shows.

Well, strictly speaking, it is printed on JC foal papers that "Certificate is to be preserved and transferred to purchaser gratis is this horse is sold." If one wanted to make a stink with them, the papers go with the horse, the owner can't retain them or charge extra for them.

Once they're lost or the trainer's being a jerk, though, you are kind of SOL. But for a gelding it is a bit beside the point. (Needing them for USDF is an issue with them, not the JC. What if it's a horse who isn't registered anywhere? Do they not get any points? Are you supposed to make up your own Walkarabaloosainto Warmblood registry (membership = 1) for them?)

judybigredpony
Jul. 6, 2011, 09:06 PM
my market usually does show or event and they are necessary in those cases. Many go on to race P-t-P's too.

P-t-P agree yes

Their tattoo is proof and they do not need JC papers to event or H/J...sold close to 100 and maybe 20 had papers...neither do you need for USEF or USEA ID (only for Breed awards) they have a Tat you can get Sire Dam and race information.
You do need a bill of sale or proof of ownership.

Stallions yes, Broodmares for breeding Geldings no way.

I don't ask or want papers if they hand them over fine...for fillies yeah I prefer but I don't promote selling breeding stock.

No Halo
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:10 PM
Hr. It was glued back on, I guess. He's got a nasty white scar on the backside of his ear. He had a hard life on the track. Lots of scarring and injuries.

Laurierace
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:19 PM
Hr. It was glued back on, I guess. He's got a nasty white scar on the backside of his ear. He had a hard life on the track. Lots of scarring and injuries.

Perhaps all the more reason to insure the horse does not end up back at the races by withholding the papers. Not too long ago there was a high profile case where a stallion was sold with a contract stating he was never to be raced. The contract was signed by both parties but the buyer had a change of heart and next thing you know the horse was back at the races. I bet the sellers wished they had withheld those papers.

And no way they glued his ear on.

No Halo
Jul. 7, 2011, 09:18 AM
I'm not hear to DEBATE what injuries my horse went through.
and truthfully I didn't ask for what your opinion is on his ear.

And I am not the one who put him on a slaughter truck.
I swear I stated he doesn't have papers because he came off a meat truck.

So, back to my ORIGINAL post.
I'm looking for information on how to get ahold of MV or PB.
The ideas given were tried, without success.

If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all!

danceronice
Jul. 7, 2011, 09:41 AM
Who was being mean? Vets don't GLUE body parts on, that's all. The color of a scar has nothing to do with how it was attached.

And just because he wound up on a meat truck doesn't mean that's why his papers weren't with him. Where you got him doesn't really matter as far as not having the papers goes.

And what more do you want? You got in touch with the track, you can't get hold of the owner, they won't give you his (did you ask for the trainer's?) number and they don't have the papers. Did you call the state owners and breeders association to try and get their numbers from them? You can call the Jockey Club and see what they say to do.

rcloisonne
Jul. 7, 2011, 09:46 AM
Well, Laurierace, you've been TOLD! :lol:

If this horse went directly from Suffolk to a "slaughter" truck, perhaps someone needs to inform Suffolk management and report the trainer and owner?

And OP, since you bought him off "the truck", how in the world can you be so sure he got those injuries from training? :rolleyes:

judybigredpony
Jul. 7, 2011, 09:48 AM
No Halo..you seem to have a very slim chance of getting the papers back from the people who know the connections.

Let it go, he is a gelding and really doesn't need them, your name will not ever be on the face of them nor recorded by JC as an owner..unless he were to race.....they prove nothing.
His Tat is proof he was DNA'd and registered and raced.

Sure for some Breed year end awards perhaps, but proof he is registered and owned by you surely will help for some things.

He is eligable for PHR regiatration...right???

In your heart he is your TB and even if he doesn't get a silly big ribbon to wear around his neck as a USDF TB points winner who cares, in open competition you can still promote and ambassador the breed aspect by his perfomance alone!!!

This is a long and old saga of wanting the papers, but in reality the last owner has withheld them and without a contract w/ your bill of sale gaurenteing them to you...SOL

The very fact he was slaughter bound is good reason for last owner on papers to run and hide. Because unless he has a bill of sale and paper trail to everyone horse was sold to after him, it makes him look very BAD.

As to the ear...does he have a scar on the inside showing it actually was detatched?? Just curious, I have meet a few AQHA who had ears partial or full and they never re-attached...

arabhorse2
Jul. 7, 2011, 09:56 AM
OP, why are you so hellbent on getting his JC papers? They really don't mean a heck of a lot.

I have JJ's JC papers, but his previous owner/trainer didn't sign off on them, so I'd have to track her down and ask her to do it if I was worried. I'm not. ;)

As long as you have a bill of sale and your TB is tattooed, you have nothing to worry about.

JC papers aren't like regular registration papers for purebreds, and since there are no breed shows for TBs, I really don't see the issue.

This from a woman who for 30 years only bought horses with registration papers. :winkgrin:

No Halo
Jul. 7, 2011, 10:00 AM
I'm going to go to a more helpful board.
Without know-it-alls, and questioning how an injuries horse got that way.

Thanks for those who did help! And love their OTTBs.

up-at-5
Jul. 7, 2011, 10:04 AM
Don't worry about having papers, like others have stated, a tattoo is good enough to qualify for points at shows offering high point TB etc.

Laurierace
Jul. 7, 2011, 10:09 AM
I'm going to go to a more helpful board.
Without know-it-alls, and questioning how an injuries horse got that way.

Thanks for those who did help! And love their OTTBs.

Take your ball and go home then. Ridiculous! You don't even know how the horse was injured. For all you know his dam bit his ear while he was still a suckling. Not to mention, who cares? It is what it is at this point. Enjoy him and go on with your life.

DiablosHalo
Jul. 7, 2011, 10:33 AM
I'm going to go to a more helpful board.
Without know-it-alls, and questioning how an injuries horse got that way.

Thanks for those who did help! And love their OTTBs.

No such other board exists for what you are looking for. I suggest you tame the tude in future posts or you'll get nowhere fast around here. ;)

witherbee
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:08 AM
Wow, nice attitude from someone looking for help. As someone who has sold/given away horses to HJ people (of which I am also one as well as being a breeder/owner), I COMPLETELY understand why papers are not given. Ask the nice gelding who showed at HITS and ended up racing on the bottom in Canada after being sold as Never to Race on a contract. And who has on his papers a sticker with my contact information for help rehoming him, but of course I have never heard a word about him.

Ask the other nice gelding that an owner of ours sold to a riding instructor as her personal horse that ended up starving in her field and by chance I happened to see him and recognise him so was able to take him back.

Ask the mare who was sold by my SIL as Never To Race because she had had a severe case of pnuemonia and had lung damage, but was sent back to the races by her new owner....

THIS is why some people do not send papers along. It's also why some of us in the race industry get tired of being vilified and hearing that horses were injured at the track, when in some cases the damage is done by people that the horses are sold to. I've even had good owners have trouble bridling a horse that we bred and raised and that never had a problem with being bridled - they of course assumed that the horse had been abused at the track, when that could not have been further from the truth. I've also heard of horrific paddock accidents when people turned the horse out with either the wrong companion, or just a freak accident and they assume that the horse had not been turned out - ours are always turned out and live as horses for part of the year and for frequent breaks. A lot of assumptions.

The OP is probably long gone, but I bet her horse has a very interesting story, but she doesn't sound like she'd be open to hearing it - her mind is made up. Unfortunately, the horse can't talk. Not saying that horses aren't mistreated - some are - same as those poor HJ/Eventing/Dressage/Western etc. horses that end up at slaughter or abused....

Off my soapbox, but this (young?) poster hit a nerve after I just spent thousands of dollars getting this nice 4 year old gelding back up to snuff...

judybigredpony
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:21 AM
I have been badgedered and threatened after sell horses and it is clearly is stated on Bill of sale...NO JC Papers will go w/ horse...only to later get bombarded w/ calls n e-mails wanting them.
New OTTB non racing owners who think...think being the operative word that the JC is going to re-issue a new set of papers w/ the new owners name listed as owner on front...there is a mind set that w/o JC Papers they have no proof of anything..when in reality the papers prove squat ..the tattoo is much better proof...
The unfortuante part is for a young filly who is stil of race age..I really hate to part w/ their papers, feel honor bound should they wish to breed. Even as a sports horse alot of those Breed registries require orginal JC papers. Mores the pity mare/filly has a tatto and was DNA but they require papers and sometimes those papers are long gone or lost and previos owner vanished as well.

Op coped a " tude" and just doesn't get it...the parties involved DO NOT have to give her time of day.

I want to know how she got a horse off a slaughter "TRUCK" my experiance has been once bought paid for and loaded slaughterhouse bound you don't get a horse off...no exceptions..unless he was bought by a private re-seller who took loads off track to his holding place and culled out the better ones and "offered" them up for re-sale 1st.....I smell fish...

rcloisonne
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:44 PM
Op coped a " tude" and just doesn't get it...the parties involved DO NOT have to give her time of day...
Agreed!

However, this thread has brought up some interesting points of view regarding TB papers. I know it's been discussed before but why can't the JC issue non-racing papers again? IMO this would be great PR for an industry the majority of people believe is cruel and exploitive. It would show they actually care about the fate of the horses once their racing careers are over (even if, as I suspect, they don't).

Let's face it, a horse with "papers" is almost always considered more valuable than one without, at least in the eyes of the horse buying, non-racing public.

alspharmd
Jul. 8, 2011, 01:43 AM
I have to say, I'm absolutely thrilled I got my TB's papers when I bought him. To a lot of people, I guess, JC papers don't mean anything of substance and aren't required for anything anyway, but to me, getting the papers was just really, really awesome. I can definitely understand why a new OTTB owner would want to have them, even if for no other reason than it's really cool for a non-racing horse owner.

I also understand the risks involved with passing on the papers.

witherbee
Jul. 8, 2011, 08:55 AM
I really like the idea of "non-racing" papers and will put my money where my mouth is and send a letter to the JC to suggest it. I would also be willing to pay an extra few dollars at registration time or even better when I ordered the non-racing papers. Could be a good public relations thing - especially if some of the $ could go to TB retirement funds or some other post-racing cause.

I'll post a copy of the letter here after I've worded it - maybe some other members can also request it.

foxhavenfarm
Jul. 8, 2011, 09:26 AM
Take your ball and go home then. Ridiculous! You don't even know how the horse was injured. For all you know his dam bit his ear while he was still a suckling. Not to mention, who cares? It is what it is at this point. Enjoy him and go on with your life.

This!

MardiGrasTimeStable
Jul. 8, 2011, 11:25 AM
I really like the idea of "non-racing" papers and will put my money where my mouth is and send a letter to the JC to suggest it. I would also be willing to pay an extra few dollars at registration time or even better when I ordered the non-racing papers. Could be a good public relations thing - especially if some of the $ could go to TB retirement funds or some other post-racing cause.

I'll post a copy of the letter here after I've worded it - maybe some other members can also request it.

If they could figure out how to offer them I wouldn't mind paying a bit for them either - or having the new (non-racing) owners paying for them. Prove the horse is who they are - tattoo, bill of sale, photos, or even resubmit their DNA.

As for the OP - sure they are gone, but maybe checking back.

You are probably SOL on getting papers. He is gelded - so as we say around here "you can't ride the papers and you can't breed a gelding" so no reason to try to make sure they are with him anyways. You may /want/ them - but you don't /need/ them.


* I got lucky with 1 of the mares we picked up - we eventually put her up for sale and she was recognized by a previous handler who put us in touch with her previous owner and he offered to get us duplicate papers for her, we didn't ask for them. But that was not expected.

That said - if we have the papers and are certain the horse won't end back up at the track (usually older then 5 and a non-winner anyways) then we'll try to pass the papers along. Or we sell them with it written as "no JC papers provided on horse described". You bought the the horse without papers, you knew he didn't come /with/ them, and the JC does not re-issue them like any other registry could do. So why the heck are you all fired up to have them?

spooky01
Jul. 11, 2011, 02:39 PM
I just spoke to Marcus, this woman has never tried very hard to reach him as he has never spoken to her. Halo went to his ex-wife's farm from Suffolk at the end of the meet for a while then was sold/given to another local farm. As far as he knew that farm still had the horse. Where he went from the farm that he was given/sold to is unknown at this time. He will look in his file to see if he has the papers and is willing to give them up.

So Halo, before you assume, be careful what you imply, say and insinuate.

Witherbee, couldn't agree with you more, you said it better than I could of.

Halo and anybody looking for paper/info on horses from Suffolk, contact the Horsemen's Bookkeeper at 617-568-3207, we are more than willing to try and help get what you are looking for!!!

PaintedMemories
Jul. 11, 2011, 03:21 PM
Hmm... my reply disappeared, hope this doesn't post twice!

http://discus.equinesite.net/discus/messages/1/44319.html?1299813608

Someone posting as "No Halo On Me" back in March, posted that she had purchased "Nova" off the track in September, 2010 and was trying to find a home for him.

Interesting... Seems weird that "No Halo" calls him Nova, if he was "purchased off a slaughter truck", and so does the young lady trying to rehome him back in March, who purchased him off the track (although someone else says their mother bought her horse from the same barn that she purchased Nova from).

hmmm...

caffeinated
Jul. 11, 2011, 03:47 PM
Actually, that person posted here on COTH as well:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=295837

huh.

(and it seems the OP posted on that equinesite board as well, so probably got him through there, not that it matters. Maybe she meant the person she got him from pulled him out of a bad situation?)

LittleblackMorgan
Jul. 11, 2011, 04:17 PM
Your best bet is to contact Marcus Vitali and if theyre still on file with Suffolk

Big fat GOOD LUCK with that. Been there, done that. No papers released.

ETA-The bookkeepers at Suffolk are so helpful. I tried for months to get my old horses papers from Marcus's exwife, and Marcus (via certified registered letter). Guess what? I never got them!!!!I was ignored by Marcus. The ex offered me another TB. (more to the story, but irrelevant).

Anyways, you probably will never see those papers unfortunately. Good luck though.

spooky01
Jul. 13, 2011, 02:54 PM
If I remember correctly, it wasn't Marcus that wouldn't release the papers, it was the owner that wouldn't release them and I think had possession of them

GingerJumper
Jul. 13, 2011, 03:17 PM
I doubt you'll ever see those papers. My OTTB doesn't have them anymore, they were lost. I honestly don't care. He has a tattoo, I have his registered name, I have his pedigree, his racing records, and did the "find info" thing with the JC to get his registered color and height and any additional details they had on him.

Papers or not, I'm happy I have him and love him to bits.

gumtree
Jul. 18, 2011, 07:35 PM
If Mr. Buckley has bought anything at auction a sales company will have his address. In the past they have always given me addresses, no phone numbers. Just ask if they have an address for Mr. Buckley and if they ask why tell them you have an OTTB that Mr. Buckley once owned that you are re-schooling and wanted to get some back ground information on the horse. I wouldn't mention that you got him from the kill pen. Call Keeneland Sales, Fasig Tipton, Ocala Breeders Sales (OBS) I have gotten addresses from the Jockey Club for owners of last record I guess they don’t do give them anymore. If your intentions are honorable I completely understand why you would want them. Explain the same to Mr. Buckley. Kind of surprised this post got so hotly debated. But it seems to happen quite often which is why I have not been around in over a year. Most of the time papers are that are withheld is not necessarily for the well fair of the horse but more to protect the ego of the last owner or trainer. God forbid that someone else might do better with the horse. Yes, there are plenty of people out there that will squeeze the lemon dry but far more have ethics and compassion. Call me a fool but I tend to give most people the benefit of doubt. IMO TB’s without papers are far more likely to fall on hard times then those that don’t.

witherbee
Jul. 19, 2011, 10:16 AM
Kind of surprised this post got so hotly debated. But it seems to happen quite often which is why I have not been around in over a year. Most of the time papers are that are withheld is not necessarily for the well fair of the horse but more to protect the ego of the last owner or trainer. God forbid that someone else might do better with the horse. Yes, there are plenty of people out there that will squeeze the lemon dry but far more have ethics and compassion. Call me a fool but I tend to give most people the benefit of doubt. IMO TB’s without papers are far more likely to fall on hard times then those that don’t.

Wow, you really contradict yourself here - first you say that most of the time papers are withheld "to protect the ego of the last owner or trainer" and then you say you "tend to give most people the benefit of the doubt". Evidently you have never been in the position of having sold or given away a horse with a contract that the horse was never to race and a notation on the papers only to see that horse in the Entries in Canada. Evidently you have never sold or given away a mare that had severe lung damage from a bout of pneumonia and had the person who promised to keep her as a broodmare or companion send her right back into training. Ego indeed...

Sorry, but I get so sick of all of the other disciplines trashing race owners/breeders/trainers. Having just picked up another owner's STARVING 4 year old at a hunter barn, I'm a little fed up with the attitude that the only abusive practices are in racing.

gumtree
Jul. 22, 2011, 03:58 PM
Actually I have just recently. I received the following email from a good Samaritan who just happened to see a filly we bred and has nothing to do with the rescue group;

Hello! I am writing this in hopes that you will be able to help. A beautiful thoroughbred mare you bred named Double the Love is sitting in a kill pen at New Holland Auction. She is running out of time. http://www.ac4h.com/BrokerOwned4.htm (She is about halfway down the page.) She is very sore footed or lame and likely will ship to slaughter if someone doesn't intervene. I just rescued a thoroughbred mare a few days ago from there who I am paying to quarantine, or I would save her myself. I am hoping that since you were her breeder, you would be able to help in some way. I will help get her a home, but she needs to be saved first. Thank you for any help you can provide. Take care!

I was shocked and dismayed over the condition of the filly, she is not a mare yet, and where she is. She only came off the track in late March. We sold her as a 2 year old but I have known the trainer for years. He called us in March to inform us she was finished racing and if we wanted her back. I said give us a couple of weeks we are in the process of move horses around. When I called him back not long after to tell him we could take her he said he found a “good” home for her. Then I get this!!!!!!!! Check out the video hard for a horse to get in that condition if she went to a “good” home and then was moved on to who ever has her now in such a short time. She was picture perfect when she left the trainer. I know the trainer well and plan to find out just what happened. Every horse we breed and sell the new owners know we will take them back. It is the right thing to do if you are going to be a breeder.
I still stand by my post.

Bacchus
Jul. 22, 2011, 04:28 PM
Add your horses to www.Thoroughbredconnect.com so if someone lists them as needing a home, you'll be notified:)

halo
Jul. 23, 2011, 03:29 PM
Id be interested in some answers from show horse people. I race, and only race, no showing. I havent sold any OTTBs off the track, but will be in that position later on this year. I, too, don't want to give papers with a horse if I dont want them back on the track, but I want to give them the best opportunity to have a good home. Does it do any good to show horse people to have a copy of the papers? That way I can turn the papers back in to the Jockey Club as Sold Without Pedigree, yet the new owner still has a copy of the papers to show who the horse is and to register them with a show horse registry, or whatever is out there (I know squat about show horses).

danceronice
Jul. 23, 2011, 08:30 PM
If it's a mare and she might be inspected for a warmblood/sport horse registry, papers will make it MUCH easier. And there are breed points and things like that where you have to be able to prove the horse is what you say it is.

Personally, I would only take the horse with the real papers. They go with the horse, it's one more piece of paperwork (beyond a coggins or bill of sale) to prove who the horse is and that he's mine. And for me a mare's worthless if she's not registered as I'd only want one to breed. If you don't want them racing, don't sell them to race owners. Vet the buyer, or see if your local version of CANTER (or equivalent--there is a group in Florida that does something similar) will take the horse as they use a contract.

Vet the buyer anyway. There are far worse things than a horse racing til it drops. Someone at IIRC C-town sold a pony horse to a woman with kids who swore up and down it was for her autistic son. A couple weeks later a CANTER volunteer happened to be looking at AC4H and spotted the horse in a broker pen for resale--it probably went straight from the track to New Holland to get run through the sale. The trainer who sold it got it back but if that CANTER person hadn't been browsing and if AC4H hadn't listed it, it could have wound up on the next truck to Canada.

Jessi P
Jul. 24, 2011, 11:14 AM
Halo I have sold horses off the track before with a copy of their papers. It all depends on the seller and buyer. Some buyers wont even look at a horse without the papers, others are happy with a copy. Some sellers want extra $ to give the papers with the horse (usually $300 or so - I dont agree with this but I know of many people who do this). Personally, when I sell one of ours I usually do give the papers with the horse but I try to scope out the buyer to the best of my ability so that I have a good idea that the horse wont end up racing again. And I always include a note in the bill of sale that says NEVER TO BE RACED that I have the buyers initial next to it and then sign the B.O.S. And I always keep a copy of that bill of sale for myself.

halo
Jul. 24, 2011, 03:19 PM
Jess, the problem I see with that is, what if that person then sells the horse? Theres nothing to prevent the next owner from taking said horse with papers and racing it.

Im just not quite sure how to deal with this situation. Hopefully, a copy of the papers will be enough for the new owner.

Jessi P
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:58 AM
Halo you're right - there is no guarantee that down the line the horse won't end up back on the track with a 3rd or 4th owner. Thats the main reason so many folks wont give the papers with the horse, to guarantee it wont race again. There is no easy answer that pleases everyone.

cajunbelle
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:09 PM
Poor "NO HALO" is now being offered as a freebie on Dreamhorse, he obviously didn't work out for this OP! Very sad indeed!

summerhorse
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:10 PM
Perhaps all the more reason to insure the horse does not end up back at the races by withholding the papers. Not too long ago there was a high profile case where a stallion was sold with a contract stating he was never to be raced. The contract was signed by both parties but the buyer had a change of heart and next thing you know the horse was back at the races. I bet the sellers wished they had withheld those papers.

And no way they glued his ear on.

That has happened several times. I'm not sure why people think that suddenly after all the time and years and injuries that suddenly THEY will succeed with a retired horse!!

My horse cut his ear off, it had just enough blood supply left to sew it back on but luckily it healed fine, left a white line all around his ear! They do have that surgical glue, maybe that is what OP meant. But probably they sewed it on.

furlong47
Nov. 7, 2011, 06:58 PM
Annnnd.... No Halo is now in a rescue in PA. (The name typed on this album is slightly wrong, looking at photos this is definitely the same horse.)

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.240461982675535.65795.112899218765146&type=1

Bacchus
Nov. 8, 2011, 09:24 AM
Guess OP really wanted those papers:(

Calamber
Nov. 8, 2011, 09:59 AM
OP, why are you so hellbent on getting his JC papers? They really don't mean a heck of a lot.

I have JJ's JC papers, but his previous owner/trainer didn't sign off on them, so I'd have to track her down and ask her to do it if I was worried. I'm not. ;)

As long as you have a bill of sale and your TB is tattooed, you have nothing to worry about.

JC papers aren't like regular registration papers for purebreds, and since there are no breed shows for TBs, I really don't see the issue.

This from a woman who for 30 years only bought horses with registration papers. :winkgrin:

Excuse me? Jockey Club papers are most certainly breed registration papers for thoroughbreds, that is the silliest thing, (well almost, along with Obama did not really know he was in cahoots with criminal bankers) that I have ever heard of. What "other" breed registry is there for TBs besides those performance horse things?

It also makes no sense to sell a horse and to guarantee it will not race again, to keep the papers. All kinds of back door bootleg operations to get papers exist, even getting old papers that somewhat match and get the horse in the gate at those places that are not exactly, shall we say, diligent about checking the tats. PtPs being only one of them, flat racings goes on all over the place that exist to make some kind of purse. I think the horse should have it's registry with it simply as a matter of record for the animal.

The Jockey Club can make non racing records that will stick if they want to, you have to raise holy hell to get them to do it, but before they did not even want to recognize the problem of the non racing "market" for thoroughbreds, either good or bad until they were basically shamed into doing so, so why not get that part out of the way and make them recognize that if an owner sells a horse that is not supposed to race again, then record it that way with the JC, make sure the papers are paid for to re-record that way, and that is that. It may take a bit of shuffling in their precious administration costs but that could be taken care of by the new owners, right? Where there is a will there is a way. I want my horses papers with him/her, period. I want to know who they are and who bred them and I think that their record should go with them. If it only helps a few horses who are in need find someone who cares for them, it is all worth it. I would certainly love it if I could record somewhere that a horse I bred or owned and loved, could find me when he/she needs me.

By the way, there are breed shows for thoroughbreds. You need a bit more knowledge of the whole situation.

DiablosHalo
Nov. 8, 2011, 10:30 AM
o.m.g.

Laurierace
Nov. 8, 2011, 10:38 AM
I think it's time to impose COTH's explosive diarrhea curse on the OP. A horse should never need rescuing twice.

Calamber
Nov. 8, 2011, 11:04 AM
I think it's time to impose COTH's explosive diarrhea curse on the OP. A horse should never need rescuing twice.

How do you know that the OP did this to the horse? In the fairy tale world of so many people today who are well off or at least comfortable, bad things should just not happen, and, if it does, let's just find the nearest scapegoat and whip up on them. Where the real culprit lies for the disaster that has overtaken this country very often is right in the mirror.

DiablosHalo
Nov. 8, 2011, 02:10 PM
In reading op's other posts - it sounds like she needed to be rescued...

Bacchus
Nov. 9, 2011, 09:06 AM
By the way, there are breed shows for thoroughbreds. You need a bit more knowledge of the whole situation.

There are breed shows for Thoroughbreds starting next year through TJC Thoroughbred Incentive Program, but the ones going on now are just a show having a Thoroughbred class.

And no, you cannot get TJC to make non-racing papers -- maybe they'll do it in the future if we are lucky, but right now it doesn't matter how much heck you raise, you won't get them because they don't exist.

And changing a horse's identity, getting "old" papers to match a horse, or getting duplicates is much more difficult than you think, and hardly worth it.

Trevelyan96
Nov. 10, 2011, 06:26 PM
I've owned 4 TB's, 2 of them OTTBS. Both OTTB's and the unraced mare came with papers. One, a young gelding, was given to a rescue without papers and was never named. Fortunately, the owner provided his sire/dam and year born information and I was able, eventually, (10 YEARS later) through the JC, to at least have him officially named. He died a year later, and to this day I am grateful that he did not have to die without ever having an official name. He was an awesome horse and deserved that.

I don't race, but I do prefer they come with papers. Mainly because I feel that by proving identity, papers will often protect the horse. Tatoos only work to postitively ID a horse IF they can be read!

I also understand why many race owners prefer to keep the papers desire that the horse should not be raced, but like the rest of us, once you give up ownersship, you also relinquish your rights regarding further use of the horse. However, by sending the papers with the horse, you at least leave a paper trail and the door open to be contacted in the future if the horse needs a rescue and you want the opportunity to do so.

Its a 50/50 risk for the owner. You either risk it being raced, or you risk it finding its way into a low end auction where it can't be identifided because the tatoo can't be read. I'll take the former over the latter.

onthehill
Jan. 22, 2012, 07:55 AM
Looking MUCH better! Found this - No Halo On Me is the horse you'll see with the thin white strip. http://www.wgal.com/r-video/30256775/detail.html

... And I was just looking at the girl's profile who originally started this thread? I hope nothing bad happened to her - it looked like she was having some relationship issues. :uhoh:

Eventer55
Jan. 22, 2012, 09:38 AM
One reason to need papers: to register a horse with the USDF in order to qualify for breed awards and to promote OTTBs.

Also for TIP I believe you need papers :yes:

onthehill
Jan. 22, 2012, 12:10 PM
Well I think the papers question is really a moot point at this moment.

Thank goodness Halo is OK ... but I have to wonder about OP.

Eventer55
Jan. 22, 2012, 01:52 PM
o.m.g.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:



I didn't realize how old this thread was when I mentioned TIP Thanks DiablosHalo you pretty much summed it up.

jurneeka
Jan. 23, 2012, 09:03 AM
Well.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204257504577149073666823752.html

Lady Counselor
Jan. 23, 2012, 10:45 AM
*headdesk*
You know, reading through threads like this, some of the very people who are beating their chests about "saving" horses are making it harder and harder for everyone else.

Come on people! If you buy the horse without the papers, you bought him without papers. If you have to have papers, don't buy an unpapered horse. Wait until you find one with them.

And going online, listing trainers or owners by name and bitching about them because they won't give up the papers, well that may really make them think twice or three times about the next horse they sell off the track. This makes a vicious cyle even worse.

They get dragged all over the internet, after selling a horse to try to get a home for it, well now what are they supposed to do? Risk making a sale to someone who either turns around and dumps the horse (as apparently happened here)or risk getting badmouthed by them? Avoid the private buyer and sell to someone who is a broker, but risk a New Holland call? Euthanize everything as soon as it's career is done?

Right now there is no surefire way to keep an ex-racehorse off the track other than pulling the papers. And people like the OP are not helping anyone at all.

If you absolutely, positively have to have some sort of papers for your horse, either find a registry where you can register them (like ACTHA) or look into finding out from the JC about what it takes to have papers reissued for your horse and pay the price. Or only buy a horse with papers in the first place.

Hunting Creek
Feb. 1, 2012, 09:09 AM
Also for TIP I believe you need papers :yes:

For purposes of TIP, you do not need the papers. The horse has to be registered, but registration can be proven by (1) papers, (2) tattoo lookup and 5-cross ped, or (3) letter from TJC. For more inform, see www.tjctip.com and click on Thoroughbred Owners.

judybigredpony
Feb. 1, 2012, 09:16 AM
Eligibility
For purposes of eligibility for all T.I.P. classes and awards, a “Thoroughbred” is
defined as any horse that has been registered with The Jockey Club. All horse
shows must require riders to verify registration on the day of the horse show through
one of the following methods:
 The Jockey Club Certificate of Foal Registration or a copy thereof; or
 The horse’s lip tattoo, the horse’s 5-cross pedigree and the successful
tattoo lookup result from The Jockey Club’s Tattoo Identification Services,
(located at registry.jockeyclub.com); or
 If neither of the above is available, a letter from The Jockey Club verifying
the horse’s identity.

MagicalFinn
Feb. 3, 2012, 12:08 PM
I have a Halo grandbaby too! Imho it's a great line! As for the papers, im struggling with the exact same issue. Even worse though, I think his last owner may have passed away. Ill let you know if I figure out how to handle this issue, but in the meantime good luck and I would love to see pictures of your boy!

Pristine
Feb. 3, 2012, 09:23 PM
If there is a dispute about ownership the person with the Jockey Club papers is likely to be considered the owner. If somebody buys a horse with no papers that horse could have been stolen. Also those selling for slaughter or to kill buyers do not care about papers. If somebody wants the papers they are not so likely to be sending them off to slaughter.

moodymaretoo
Feb. 4, 2012, 01:28 AM
If there is a dispute about ownership the person with the Jockey Club papers is likely to be considered the owner. If somebody buys a horse with no papers that horse could have been stolen. Also those selling for slaughter or to kill buyers do not care about papers. If somebody wants the papers they are not so likely to be sending them off to slaughter.

This is something I used to fear. Since I did not get much info about my OTTB or even his right name when I bought him.
When I got him, didn't care that I didn't get papers.
We will not ever show and he will never race again.
My fear was that he was stolen, and someone might come to take him. Fortunately through digging and scraping together bits and pieces.. I know my horse was not stolen, was likely at risk for a bad situation, has a colt that raced once (which I cannot find updates on anymore)
I know there will be NO ONE coming to lay claim to my horse (also now a gelding).
Would I like a copy of his papers??? Hell yeah I would.
Will I ever get them.. not very likely.
Do I love him any less... Nope.
So he's young enough to be my first owned horse and I'm old enough that he will be my last and only... The longer I have him, the less I care about his past.

flashwhitelock
Feb. 6, 2012, 06:45 AM
with the new eventing ottb awards and prize money, you need the papers. (usually can't read the tatoo at event horse ages)
I'll probably ditch riding my mare who doesn't have papers and only do horses with papers in the future. guess which horses are going to have a better chance at a second career, yup, the one with the papers.

maybe all you race folks need to lean on jockey club to do something about doing the non-raceable registration. until then, the marketplace is changing this year and I, for one, will change with it and only re-school papered horses in the future. good luck finding homes for the ones without.

judybigredpony
Feb. 6, 2012, 07:03 AM
I'll probably ditch riding my mare who doesn't have papers and only do horses with papers in the future. guess which horses are going to have a better chance at a second career, yup, the one with the papers.


Did you read what you posted...I'll probably ditch my mare...


flashwhitelock...Before you make you post...show the rule that says you HAVE to Have the JC papers...if the horse is tattooed its been DNA'ed and a good Black Light can help with partial tattoo's and also Tattoo look up w/ aide of marking and Whorls..I sell OTTB and I don't even want the papers...maybe on an older 5-6yr old out of conditions but a young 3-4 yr old who is sound...Trainer can keep them. Horse is tattooed and its my way of keeping the horse from being sent back to racing..Because n matter how much you write Not To Race and No Matter How You word you Contract there are 2 a**shats for every 1 legit buyer that will try sending horse back to racing.
I posted the T.I.P rules...All this thread does is create miss understanding..when you adopt a dog from a rescue or pound do you get his AKC papers..NO...can you actualy prove the dog or pedigree No...does it make the dog any less of a pet..No...So does having a piece of paper that will never list you as owner breeder etc on the face nor prove even ownership ..No... The bill of sale and proof of payment are your Best tools as well as a tattoo....Are you people thick.

Unless the JC wants to take on the daunting labrynth of keeping tabs on the many owmership changes of some OTTB you just have to come to terms that Alot of OTTB will not have papers...move on there are more pressing issues...

Bacchus
Feb. 6, 2012, 10:06 AM
As stated, you do NOT have to have JC papers to qualify for TIP classes.

Also, JC papers are NOT proof of ownership. Never will be. Ask the JC if you don't believe me. The best proof of ownership is a bill of sale and possession of the horse.

Technically, the only reason you need papers is to race a horse and possibly to register a foal out of a mare, but you really don't need the mares papers for that, either, as long as she's registered and you are listed as owner with The Jockey Club, which is how you can do business with them based on a certain horse -- it does not prove to anyone else (or the JC) that you actually own the horse.

I have two OTTBs and don't have papers for either of them. Don't need them because I don't plan to race them.

FalseImpression
Feb. 7, 2012, 04:18 PM
the "ditch my mare" gives me shivers...

flashwhitelock
Feb. 7, 2012, 10:35 PM
"ditch my mare" gives you shivers?? let's see, I've spent 18 months retraining and $4000 in vet bills to fix this mare from the damage done to her racing. Just what does your brain think I'm going to do?? yes, I will find her a job she can do that won't need confirmation of her being a OTTB. She'll probably go in the jumper market instead of the eventing that I was planning. I'll concentrate my time and energy on horses that can go the sport I'm interested in.

If the tatoo is no longer there (she'd cut her nose almost off when loose one day.) then NO, I can only use the papers to confirm her background. Many of the TB's I've worked with over the years have not had legible tatoos and that's according to the vet's trying to read them with a black light.

Sorry, but I have to still disagree, if there is going to be a market for TB's it's going to be a larger market if papers are available.

I understand, if you can't prevent a horse from racing, you don't want the papers to go with them. I am saying, YOU, AS RACEHORSE OWNERS, are the only ones that will have the clout to get the Jockey club to ever change that. I am suggesting that you work to do that. It's the only way you will maximize the ability to find homes for the TB's after their racing career is over.

I think TB's are superb for eventing and showing but it is harder and harder to get buyers to look at OTTB's instead of the quieter warmbloods. We ALL need to ensure that TB's have a place to go after racing. I think papers are becoming much more important.

I'm just trying to explain what it's like in my neck of the woods.

Laurierace
Feb. 7, 2012, 10:43 PM
While I agree with you that non-racing papers are something we should all be pressuring the JC to provide as an eventer I have trouble understanding why you would need papers to event a TB. My guy is a 24 year old TB who is still eventing to this day although not a high as he did in his prime. He doesn't even have a tattoo let alone papers. I board at an eventing barn where probably 95% of the horses are TBs and would venture to guess that maybe one or two of their owners have possession of their papers. Never stopped them from eventing either.

Barnfairy
Feb. 7, 2012, 11:37 PM
Quick! Someone needs to tell Bruce Davidson, Denny Emerson, Nancy Guyotte et al that they should ditch* their worthless paperless homebred mongrel eventing prospects immediately!

(* and by "ditch", of course I mean responsibly rehome, you silly racing people!)

judybigredpony
Feb. 8, 2012, 07:10 AM
Quick! Someone needs to tell Bruce Davidson, Denny Emerson, Nancy Guyotte et al that they should ditch* their worthless paperless homebred mongrel eventing prospects immediately! Stepehn Bradley, Boyd Martin, Philip Dutton, Ryan Woods, Julie Richards, Phyliss Dawson, Steuart Pittman (breeder of TB), Allison Springer, and the list goes on


Flashwhitelock...why don't you go cross post this over on the Eventing Forum...or the Hunter Jumper Forum...seriously almost had her nose ripped off...is like No Halo's ear getting glued back on??

No one here is stupid and we know tattoos and T.I.P. rules..

If having Papers is darn important wouldn't you think USEA and USEF would make a ruling???

From a re-sellers point of view to all my clients who send me their lovely retired OTTB I don't need no JC Papers to sell a horse. To my customers No Papers means No papers. You know what Flash still selling horses to quality top sports horse careers....

Las Olas
Feb. 9, 2012, 03:46 PM
The Jockey Club already offers non-racing papers for throroughbreds. It's called the PHR. The Jockey Club created the registry to provide papers for thoroughbreds post-race career. When I worked for TJC, there was little to no interest in the registry, so TJC turned it over to the USEF for management. The PHR registry now allows other breeds, but you can still register your OTTB, and those papers will provide the necessary proof of pedigree for whatever discipline you choose. As a thoroughbred breeder/owner I turn the TJC certificate in and provide the new owner with PHR papers and a copy of the old TJC certificate attached.

The Jockey Club will back these papers with other breed organizations (such as Hanno) for inclusion of mares into the other studbooks (which was part of my job when working for TJC).

http://www.phr.com/pageDisplay.aspx?pid=history

ETA: is there a way to make this info a seperate 'sticky', as this topic seems to come up frequently???

Hunting Creek
Feb. 15, 2012, 09:30 AM
"If the tatoo is no longer there (she'd cut her nose almost off when loose one day.) then NO, I can only use the papers to confirm her background. Many of the TB's I've worked with over the years have not had legible tatoos and that's according to the vet's trying to read them with a black light."

Do you know the mare's registered name or any parts of the tattoo? If so, you can send photos and any other information you have to tjctip@jockeyclub.com and if the ID can be verified you'll get a letter which will provide all the information you need to participate in TIP classes and awards and may even suffice for purposes of other breed registries or disciplines.

S A McKee
Feb. 15, 2012, 01:06 PM
The Jockey Club already offers non-racing papers for throroughbreds. It's called the PHR. The Jockey Club created the registry to provide papers for thoroughbreds post-race career. When I worked for TJC, there was little to no interest in the registry, so TJC turned it over to the USEF for management. The PHR registry now allows other breeds, but you can still register your OTTB, and those papers will provide the necessary proof of pedigree for whatever discipline you choose. As a thoroughbred breeder/owner I turn the TJC certificate in and provide the new owner with PHR papers and a copy of the old TJC certificate attached.

The Jockey Club will back these papers with other breed organizations (such as Hanno) for inclusion of mares into the other studbooks (which was part of my job when working for TJC).

http://www.phr.com/pageDisplay.aspx?pid=history

ETA: is there a way to make this info a seperate 'sticky', as this topic seems to come up frequently???

The Jockey Club has had no involvement with the PHR registry for many years. They sold the registry to a private individual who arranged a transfer to USEF.

There is a cost involved in using PHR to obtain papers. If you want to verify the identity of the horse you'll need to do DNA testing.

PHR 'registers' horses of many breeds but a good portion of them are simply recorded for the awards program which does not require DNA testing. PHR papers alone prove nothing. Not even the age of the horse let alone pedigree. I believe only intact males and mares are eligible for DNA typing

It's misleading to say that the PHR is the registry for non racing TB's as there may have been no verifiable ID check.