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Ski'sthelimit
May. 31, 2011, 06:20 PM
I frown on this for the most part. I believe it is a thin line that gets crossed all too often.

Especially frown upon trainers that consistently claim that their students horses are wonderful just way too advanced for the student. Shouldn't that trainer spend less time riding the horse and more time teaching the capable student to ride and train said horse?

(I am not talking about a 12 year old who's parents just bought them a grand prix horse. )



Comments, opinions.

RockinHorse
May. 31, 2011, 06:24 PM
I frown on this for the most part. I believe it is a thin line that gets crossed all too often.

Especially frown upon trainers that consistently claim that their students horses are wonderful just way too advanced for the student. Shouldn't that trainer spend less time riding the horse and more time teaching the capable student to ride and train said horse?

(I am not talking about a 12 year old who's parents just bought them a grand prix horse. )



Comments, opinions.

What is the thin line being crossed?

If I want a trainer to show my hors, I see no problem with it. My horse goes great for my trainer and pins well in the open divisions with her. Why is that an issue?

Ski'sthelimit
May. 31, 2011, 06:30 PM
if you want your trainer to ride your horse great! I dont see anything wrong with that. Where i find / see / hear of issues is students being held back while trainers are showing their horses in classes that the student could be showing and succeeding in. All in that same scenario trainer is telling student they are basically incapable of showing at that level.

Do you not see this happen?

Zenyatta
May. 31, 2011, 06:33 PM
Yes, I think students should learn to ride their own horses. Trainers are there to help, but the students should be in the show ring.

Zenyatta
May. 31, 2011, 06:38 PM
if you want your trainer to ride your horse great! I dont see anything wrong with that. Where i find / see / hear of issues is students being held back while trainers are showing their horses in classes that the student could be showing and succeeding in. All in that same scenario trainer is telling student they are basically incapable of showing at that level.

Do you not see this happen?

I agree, a trainer should encourge their students to show, not hold them back.
Fortunately I have trainer who wants all her students showing their own horses.:D

HorseLuvr
May. 31, 2011, 06:46 PM
Doesn't bother me at all if a trainer shows a student's horse. It is pretty much the norm at shows around my area. Many times the student can not get to the show until later in the week and it is a good opportunity for the horse to get in the show arena and get comfortable at the show grounds before the student arrives. This is especially true for a green horse. Also, many students enjoy seeing their horse be successful in the open divisions with a trainer. A trainer giving a student's horse a good ride/experience over a course in a class just sets the student up to be more successful when they show their own horse on the weekend.

Stellar_moves
May. 31, 2011, 06:50 PM
If you are willing to pay for the trainer to ride it, go for it! I don't see a problem with it at all. I'm getting a different trainer to show my horse in the senior working hunter at the congress this year! It's a good way to help the horse, and it could help the rider too to see how the horse moves, jumps, etc.

Pirateer
May. 31, 2011, 07:38 PM
if you want your trainer to ride your horse great! I dont see anything wrong with that. Where i find / see / hear of issues is students being held back while trainers are showing their horses in classes that the student could be showing and succeeding in. All in that same scenario trainer is telling student they are basically incapable of showing at that level.

Do you not see this happen?

Can't say that I have EVER seen that happen. At all.

mrsbradbury
May. 31, 2011, 07:42 PM
I show most of my clients horses in the appropriate open divisions, and my clients then show them in their respective adult or childrens division.

When my clients are at a levell that thier nerves don't undermine the experience, then I will not longer show them.

I haven't seen an issue with trainers holding their clients back or forbidding their clients to show their own horses.

Many of my clinets are mounted on greener horses because that's what their budget allowed. Many of these horses had very limited show mileage. I teach my clients to ride and ride well, but I DO NOT expect a 14 year old, or a timid adult to prep their horse at it's third show.

I can tell you what I don't do. I don't lunge horses for an hour at 5am, I don't use dex or other substances, and I don't particpate in the maddening 7am open schooling disaster. I politely navigate my clients horse around the open division, show it the ropes and give it a positive correct ride, so it has the tools to help my student learn.

Rel6
May. 31, 2011, 07:48 PM
if you want your trainer to ride your horse great! I dont see anything wrong with that. Where i find / see / hear of issues is students being held back while trainers are showing their horses in classes that the student could be showing and succeeding in. All in that same scenario trainer is telling student they are basically incapable of showing at that level.

Do you not see this happen?

I have not heard of that happening either. First of all, a trainer riding a junior's horse cannot ride it in the junior divisions, and a trainer riding an ammy's horse cannot ride it in the amateur divisions. So your thinking only applies to open divisions (unless I'm missing something.) I really cannot think of a situation where this would happen. Could you give me an example?

The only place I could see this being applicable would be in a big money class...a hunter derby or a grand prix (for example) where the owner is capable of doing the class but the trainer is more likely to get prize money. In that case I'd say if the student is capable then they need the experience, otherwise they are never going to get to the point where they *could* be in the money.

Again, though I've never heard this happening. But then I also don't know anyone who competes exclusively in open divisions (unless they are pros of course) so in every case the owner and trainer would be both showing the horse (if the trainer shows at all.)

dp1092
May. 31, 2011, 07:53 PM
I'm in the middle about this topic. I think it's fine for trainers to ride their student's horse if the horse is green and the the trainer just shows him to get the horse around the course to see the jumps. However, I disagree with the situation when trainers ride their student's horse if they show the horse in a division that the student is capable of succeeding in with the horse. I would never judge a trainer or student because of the riding situation, just stating my opinion! :)

jr
May. 31, 2011, 07:58 PM
Of course they should if it's what works best for the horse and student.

I am a rider with over 40 years of riding experience and about the same number of years of show experience. And while I'm a capable rider, I work about 60 hours a week. On a good week, I get to ride 3 times. At shows, I may make it to the show late Friday afternoon, and show Sat and Sun. My trainer certainly shows the horse during the week. He tunes him and makes sure that he's familiar with the ring. That way, I can make the most of my limited time in the ring.

I would love to be someone that has the time and freedom to spend more time at the barn, riding, and at the show during the week. But that is not in the cards for me. It doesn't make me lazy, or a cheat. There is no line being crossed.

I want the horse to have the best experience possible. I want to have the best and safest experience possible. I'm fortunate to work with a professional who can help make that happen.

Perhaps you could clarify what line exactly you think is being crossed?

Ski'sthelimit
May. 31, 2011, 08:08 PM
The line i see crossed is

Trainer: "no you are not ready for this class i will show horse. you stay in walk trot, 2', 3', 4' class. no moving up for you"

Student: "yes, whatever you say."

OR

Trainer: "you get too nervous, you will hold horse back in this class"

Student: " oh yes, im a horrible rider, thank goodness i have you"

OR

I could go on and on... All i am saying is i am seeing more and more students being held back and trainers have been lacking in the whole TRAINING part of their jobs.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 31, 2011, 08:13 PM
There's a plethora of reasons for a trainer to ride a student's horse. Almost none of them include the student's inability to ride or trainer's unwillingness to teach.

My horse did a pregreen and first year with my trainer because he was a 4 year old greenie when I got him in high school. While I might have been able to make him up relatively unscathed, he absolutely, 100% is a nicer horse today because of the confident, quiet, positive experiences in the show ring he got with my trainer. I showed him in the same height junior divisions while trainer showed him in the pro ring. It often turned out that those divisions ran in the same ring, so it gave me the added benefit of having seen him go around all the jumps early in the week. Anyone that's brought a green horse along knows how helpful it is to see the horse school under an educated rider.

Additionally, keeping a show horse fit for anything bigger than 3' is a serious job. One that, for whatever reason, not all ammys/juniors can commit to doing reliably year-round. Keeping my horse fit to do anything but the childrens/adults was a 6 day per week job that required a serious program. With high school and an after school job, I wasn't able to keep him fit the way he needed to be without the help of my trainer. As an adult, if I were still showing at that level, I would rely almost exclusively on my trainer to keep the horse worked during the week, as work and family commitments wouldn't permit me to do it on my own. In fact, knowing how well my junior horse turned out in the arrangement described above, I probably wouldn't do it any other way even if I HAD the time.

There are a ton of reasons to have your horse ridden/shown by the trainer. Nothing benefits a young, impressionable horse like a solid professional ride, and nothing tunes up a schoolmaster like a solid professional ride. Add that to the fact that it's just plain dangerous to show a horse that's not competition fit, and you've got a perfectly reasonable explanation for why a trainer earns their keep doing more than standing in the middle of the ring.

Phaxxton
May. 31, 2011, 08:18 PM
The line i see crossed is

Trainer: "no you are not ready for this class i will show horse. you stay in walk trot, 2', 3', 4' class. no moving up for you"

Student: "yes, whatever you say."

OR

Trainer: "you get too nervous, you will hold horse back in this class"

Student: " oh yes, im a horrible rider, thank goodness i have you"

OR

I could go on and on... All i am saying is i am seeing more and more students being held back and trainers have been lacking in the whole TRAINING part of their jobs.

Interesting. I find way more trainers holding students back due to the trainer's lack of skill, knowledge, and awareness of their own limitations. I also find more nosy people caring too much about what other people do with their own horses and their own money. I hit the jackpot once and had the pleasure of dealing with someone who is both of the above. She had the audacity to ask me why my trainer was showing my green horse in its first EVER recognized show. She literally asked me why I couldn't ride my own horse, and I nearly :lol: in her face. Not only was I more then capable of riding my own horse, what I choose to do with my horse and my money is none of her or anyone else's business.

Oh, next show, I believe I beat said trainer (who was ironically riding a client's horse) on that same horse she thought I couldn't ride. :lol:

Most of the time, people simply don't have the whole story. Bottom line, there are lots of crappy trainers out there for many reasons. And there are lots of excellent trainer's who show students' horses for a variety of reasons others may not be privy to. There are plenty of people who enjoy watching their trainer ride for whatever reason. It's really no one else's business but the owner's...

Meliora
May. 31, 2011, 08:18 PM
The line i see crossed is

Trainer: "no you are not ready for this class i will show horse. you stay in walk trot, 2', 3', 4' class. no moving up for you"

Student: "yes, whatever you say."

OR

Trainer: "you get too nervous, you will hold horse back in this class"

Student: " oh yes, im a horrible rider, thank goodness i have you"

OR

I could go on and on... All i am saying is i am seeing more and more students being held back and trainers have been lacking in the whole TRAINING part of their jobs.

At rated shows or the local level? I don't know of any trainers that do this. I'm sure they exist, but I would think they are the exeption.. not the rule

jr
May. 31, 2011, 08:21 PM
Your scenario 1:

I see no issue with a trainer showing a horse in a more advanced class with the owner showing smaller classes. I've done that -- it can be extremely beneficial. When I'm ready to move up, the horse is already experienced at the higher level. It can instill confidence in both the horse and rider.

Do you really know that the trainer is preventing a rider that is capable of moving up? Or is he doing as I suggested above and working on the horse and rider simultaneously.

Your scenario 2:

That's not a situation that's healthy, obviously. But having been around this business for 40+ years, my experience is that is fairly unusual situation. It's a nasty co-dependent relationship that both parties get emotional satisfaction out of it. And this isn't the only sport where this happens.

In general, I've rarely seen trainers holding riders back on purpose. If and when it happens, I would argue that responsibility for the problem is jointly held between trainer and student......being a student is an active role. In the end, if you aren't improving, it's your responsibility to analyze the situation, and make changes you need in your training/program to get the best result.

Phaxxton
May. 31, 2011, 08:22 PM
I don't know of any trainers that do this. I'm sure they exist, but I would think they are the exeption.. not the rule

Agreed. This has not been my experience either. Most trainers I have had the pleasure of dealing with really want their students to ultmately be able to ride and show their own horses. Now, what it takes to get a pair to that level may vary, depending on the horse's temperment, experience, etc., and the rider's skill level, nerves level, etc.

TarheelJD
May. 31, 2011, 08:46 PM
I can tell you what I don't do. I don't lunge horses for an hour at 5am, I don't use dex or other substances, and I don't particpate in the maddening 7am open schooling disaster. I politely navigate my clients horse around the open division, show it the ropes and give it a positive correct ride, so it has the tools to help my student learn.

This is my trainer's philosophy as well, and I very much appreciate it.

BeeHoney
May. 31, 2011, 09:13 PM
Nice post mrsbradbury. There's definitely a place for a pro to help their students by occasionally taking a horse in the show ring for them. A pro that does so in the manner the OP describes doesn't sound like a very good pro.

SweetTalk
May. 31, 2011, 09:20 PM
Eh...I don't know. I don't ever want to be a pro nor would I ever claim to be one. If my horse needs a pro ride around a course since he's new to showing I'm going to make sure my trainer is the one to do it. Its the difference between a happy, confident horse in the future and one that doesn't quite "get it." And sometimes I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong (maybe a small intricate thing) and it helps to have my trainer get on so I can get a better visual of the correct position or correct aid my horse needs.

mvp
May. 31, 2011, 09:23 PM
I show most of my clients horses in the appropriate open divisions, and my clients then show them in their respective adult or childrens division.

When my clients are at a levell that thier nerves don't undermine the experience, then I will not longer show them.

I haven't seen an issue with trainers holding their clients back or forbidding their clients to show their own horses.

Many of my clinets are mounted on greener horses because that's what their budget allowed. Many of these horses had very limited show mileage. I teach my clients to ride and ride well, but I DO NOT expect a 14 year old, or a timid adult to prep their horse at it's third show.

I can tell you what I don't do. I don't lunge horses for an hour at 5am, I don't use dex or other substances, and I don't particpate in the maddening 7am open schooling disaster. I politely navigate my clients horse around the open division, show it the ropes and give it a positive correct ride, so it has the tools to help my student learn.

This is the best version of the American Way and why trainers show clients' horses in professional divisions. I'd be grateful to have a trainer give my horse a good ride that avoided all the "prep."

Having made up one of my own, I know how long the process can be when the ammy tries to give those "teaching rides" at shows. I won't prep in the quick and dirty way and I won't buy a horse whose mind means he'll need this. But! A great-minded greenie and an ammy will waste a lot of time, money and effort while the little pookah learns to hold it together underneath a rider who can't offer the firm, positive ride every.single.time that he needs.

I have to say, that some of my proudest moments at shows happened when I was watching my trainer show my little pookah in a division the pushed the envelope for him a bit. At home and at shows, I did most of the riding and prep. I'd hand her the reins in the schooling ring. So I'd be very happy when I watched my horse show me that I had installed the tools and base that let him accept help from a pro and do something new and hard.

Encouraging a client to buy a horse the trainer knows the rider won't be able to show for a good while, not telling the client that and insisting that the "training" gets done via showing is probably the scenario the OP had in mind.

Rel6
May. 31, 2011, 10:11 PM
The line i see crossed is

Trainer: "no you are not ready for this class i will show horse. you stay in walk trot, 2', 3', 4' class. no moving up for you"

Student: "yes, whatever you say."

OR

Trainer: "you get too nervous, you will hold horse back in this class"

Student: " oh yes, im a horrible rider, thank goodness i have you"

OR

I could go on and on... All i am saying is i am seeing more and more students being held back and trainers have been lacking in the whole TRAINING part of their jobs.


In the first situation, I would hope the rider would realize after not making any progress that they need to find a new trainer.

Actually, the second situation is one I could see. Take a nice, scopey junior hunter. Junior is capable of doing a 10k hunter derby, but not as successfully as her trainer. Junior may want to see horse succeed and ask trainer to do such a big class...and if the rider wants to do it I can't see a trainer saying no (as long as the rider is capable obviously.)

You might be seeing bad trainers and riders not progressing, but its because the trainer is...well a bad trainer. I doubt its because the trainer want to keep the horse for itself.

amm2cd
May. 31, 2011, 10:50 PM
I don't see the debate. If the trainer is needed/wanted to show the horse for the client..... who cares? Isnt that kind of the point of the open division? There would be very very horse pros out there if pros had to buy all of the horses they ride in a show.

As for holding a client back? I very very rarely see someone who is so over prepared for a level that its obvious they don't belong.... More often I see people who are over mounted and under prepared.

I'd be more impressed with the first senario in a trainer's barn then the second.

SSacky
May. 31, 2011, 11:12 PM
First of all, its their horse and their money and thus their problem, so know that I would never actually bother someone in real life about it. Besides, we rarely know the whole story, so to judge would be silly.

That said, I have an opinion on it. In an ideal world, we'd all have the time to keep our horse in shape, the money for a horse at our level and the skills to keep it at its level. But, obviously, this isn't always true.

Personally, I would never ask my trainer to show my horse. If he's fresh, spooky etc. I want the experience of fixing it under my trainer's guidance. Though, if I was really frustrated and doing my horse no good at all, I may ask my trainer to get on at home/ warm up ring and show me how to fix it. I wouldn't buy a horse I didn't feel comfortable with. My first show, was the horse's second, we were excused from our o/f class, but boy did I learn a lot. The same problem never arose again since I was now capable of riding it.

The only thing that REALLY gets to me, is when someone has their trainer/a pro ride their horse in a show because the rider is unable of giving it the adequate experience but doesn't watch the trainer ride. By all means, have the trainer teach the horse the ropes, but if its because you cannot do so yourself please at least make an effort to learn at the same time.

CharmCity
May. 31, 2011, 11:26 PM
I really don't see an issue worth debating over if there are adults involved. If I ask my trainer to school the horse over the course before my round then what's the big deal? She's *dying* for me to move up and I have my weinie nerves that come into play.
As far as the lunging issue, um, I lunge my horse before I get on him at shows. Sometimes, it takes 5 minutes and sometimes, well, longer than expected:(
Some of us have *quirky* horses who need different prep than others. That's what makes them *speshul*.
Heck this past weekend, I watched a Big R judge lunge have his horse on the line for well over an hour. Did he walk in the ring and do a great job? Yes.
I highly recommend before you judge knowing the full story. As far as holding back riders, I'd fire my trainer in a heartbeat. But the reality is I can't spend every day in the saddle like I did when I was kid. To quote 'Fairweather', I'm a grown a** woman with a grown a** job'. My trainer's job is to get us in the right place to at least be remotely competitive in our division. My job as weinie is to figure out where my emotional weak points are and work with my trainer to find our 'happy place'.
Not every horse fits into every situation so before you judge, you *might* want to ask the people working with the horse. The horse I ride can be an a** hat. BUT he can move and jump and now, I'm the weakest link since we've *finally* figured out the horse's happy place.
Finally, I don't own the beast. No, he's not a 'wannabe' hunter-we're finally listening to what he's telling us.

RumoursFollow
May. 31, 2011, 11:47 PM
I think this whole post is a little weird..

Hardly ever do I want to show in a class my students are adamant about.. for example.. I have an adult that rides a difficult horse. Last year, when she first got him, I'd sometimes take him around in the warmup, or some open division or something.. but it didnt matter to her since she was showing in the Adults. Obviously, I cant show in that.

Or some of the large ponies I've shown in a schooling trip before short stirrup. As much as I'd like the pigtails and fancy bows.. ;)

I do argue good naturedly with the kid that leases my horse sometimes over who will get to show him in the derbies this year. I did tell her that if she puts the miles in the saddle, she can show him. If not, hes MINE. ALL MINE! ;)

HGem
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:04 AM
As long as all class specs are being followed, nothing else matters.

There are bad trainers out there who may intentionally or unintentionally do as the OP is proclaiming. But there are also bad businessmen, lawyers, doctors, etc. It is the person paying the money that needs to be aware of his/her choices of professional help. If you are not getting what you want out of your paid service - pay someone else! If trainer is supposeably holding you back - it's your fault for not finding another one, or getting suckered into paying for the trainer to show your horse!

I think those who have a problem with pros riding clients horses in shows, have a problem because there is an advantage in this. As many of you stated, having a pro give good positive rides in the show ring is a fantastic lesson for the horse, which then trickles down to the ammy rider. Does this make them more competitive? Yes. But so do a lot of other things involving money and horses ;) Either show up and play the game to the best of your ability or go home. Don't complain about it.

my_doran
Jun. 1, 2011, 02:33 AM
i see it happen all too much..i know you gave example of 12 yr old and such,but the only time that i would have horse shown by trainer is when said horse is capable of jumping higher then student i would have trainer debut him at that height a couple of time,just to see how horse handle showing at that jump height and then work/teach capable student towards that level..other wise i would show, train my own horse with coach at side,but not have trainer show horse at ever single show that comes up..but i also see parents buying horses that are too much for student,just because they have money avail. for that caliber of horse.
so as you can see i am kind of the middle of if its wrong or right,but lean towards that its not really the best thing.

just my $.02

jetsmom
Jun. 1, 2011, 02:39 AM
At rated shows or the local level? I don't know of any trainers that do this. I'm sure they exist, but I would think they are the exeption.. not the rule

Haven't seen it either.

Usually it's the trainer schooling/showing horse during the week and ammie/kid showing on weekends (or Fri-Sun). I'd much rather see that then have the horses sit in 10x10 stalls all week, or get LTD.

doublesstable
Jun. 1, 2011, 02:41 AM
if you want your trainer to ride your horse great! I dont see anything wrong with that. Where i find / see / hear of issues is students being held back while trainers are showing their horses in classes that the student could be showing and succeeding in. All in that same scenario trainer is telling student they are basically incapable of showing at that level.

Do you not see this happen?


IMHO, this means the trainer is not good then... and as the client it is our job to do what is going to help us learn, progress and be safe.

I have no problem with my trainer riding my horse in classes... for example; Taking one of my horses to a show that can get fresh and spooky over new jumps... my trainer is the professional and can get that job done better than I and help make sure the horse is as safe as possible for me to compete. Am I a bad rider? I don't think so but I am a ammy client that pays for a good trainer to help me learn and stay safe. Does this mean I should get a new horse because this horse is not suited for me... I would say no because horses are horses and get fresh or moody regardless - that's why I like having a trainer around.... (however) more often that not for me anyway I am solo at shows due to time and finances....

As long as the trainer is riding in the proper classes open for professionals I don't feel it's an issue. Unless you feel you are not progressing, and/or your trainer is taking you for a ride you don't want to go on, then it's your issue to resolve.

ExJumper
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:15 AM
I also don't see the issue. *Most* ammys and juniors don't show in the open divisions because they don't have the time. Pros can't show in the ammy and junior divisions. I simply can't see a potential example for this at a normal h/j rated show. I suppose, as someone already pointed out, that the trainer could want to ride a horse in a big money derby or grand prix, but most people who ride well enough to rind in one of those classes have been around long enough to know what's what and wouldn't agree to some sort of foolish arrangement.

Pros show their client's horses in the corresponding open division. I.e. pro shows my boy in the pre's or the non's before I show in the adults. Or maybe a level up, as there are lots of 3' ammy horses who are doing the first years. My pro can't show my horse in the adults so what on earth is the problem here?

There is no "debate" as far as I see it. I realize that it is less common for pros to show horses for their clients in other disciplines, but that simply isn't so in the h/j world. Our pros quite often show our horses before we get there. It's just how it works.

Giddy-up
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:12 AM
I also find more nosy people caring too much about what other people do with their own horses and their own money.

Exactly. :yes:

Who cares that the trainer shows the horse? Maybe the rider likes it that way? Maybe the trainer is a control freak & the rider is an easily manipulated puppet with a check book? Does it really matter to you why?

If people worried more about their own program & less about others they might be a little happier. Although some people just love to saddle up the drama llama.

findeight
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:14 AM
As another 40+year show veteran in 2 disciplines, 3 breeds at everything from sketchy backyard locals to World shows and the AA circuit...there is NO line let alone anybody "crossing" it.

Only place I have seen anything remotely like what is described is at the smaller, local level shows with low quality trainers who cannot get or keep decent clients. That is not exactly the type show most of us think of-the ones that have Pro/Open classes during the week the trainers ride in while the Ammie and kid classes are on the weekends when we can get off work or school.

The relationship between a trainer and their client is based on what works for them, what the trainer provides and what the client pays for. And really, none of anybody else's business.

Of course, this OP advised a new trainer trying to get started to turn away all students under the age of 12 as a waste of time and insist those over 12 buy their own horses or be turned away. Imagine it is hard to make enough to live on when you exclude 50% of your potential client base and revenue opportunities. Her choice, but don't diss those with a different business plan that supports the industry that provides her income.

Giddy-up
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:18 AM
pro shows my boy in the pre's or the non's before I show in the adults.

:eek: Put down the cup! You are drinking the crazy kool-aid!! Well now we all know your trainer just rules your life & obviously tells you what to do & what you can/can't ride your horse in. Poor ExJumper...:no: Next thing you know, your braider will probably have an opinion too! ;)

magnolia73
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:19 AM
All in that same scenario trainer is telling student they are basically incapable of showing at that level.



Yes, indeed I am incapable at this point of showing my horse. I get horrible nerves. Why should my horse have to suffer through me riding like a monkey when my trainer can hop on, give her a great ride, win some ribbons, and add value to my horse? I don't want the experience of my horse melting down as I choke in the ring. I want the experience of seeing my horse have a great horse show and do well, so that when the time comes, she has no baggage about the show ring. I don't want my horse to be perceived as "that horse that flipped out at the show"... I want people to perceive her as that cute hunter with auto changes.

I am incapable of giving my horse a good ride over 8 fences. That's why I pay a trainer. And we are improving, slowly, but measurably.

findeight
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:25 AM
Hmmmmm, I suppose this is another version of the sour grapes threads.

Only somebody who gets beat by a Pro on a client horse-because "it's no fair" they had a better trip-would give a rat's hinney who rode what in an OPEN class.

bizbachfan
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:30 AM
If I were looking for a trainer to train me and help me and my horse get to new levels I would be looking for a trainer with a proven record of successful clients, not just successful horses. I would think by holding back their students a trainer would not have a very good repuation and eventually business would suffer. No?:confused:

hntrjmprpro45
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:41 AM
Hmmmmm, I suppose this is another version of the sour grapes threads.

Only somebody who gets beat by a Pro on a client horse-because "it's no fair" they had a better trip-would give a rat's hinney who rode what in an OPEN class.

Ya I definitely got that feeling too, especially after that last thread.

Rosie
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:48 AM
Let me guess. Your next thread will be about the spoiled, wealthy hunter princesses who can't ride the expensive push button horses their parents buy them and are so lazy they use grooms at shows.

findeight
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:52 AM
If I were looking for a trainer to train me and help me and my horse get to new levels I would be looking for a trainer with a proven record of successful clients, not just successful horses. I would think by holding back their students a trainer would not have a very good repuation and eventually business would suffer. No?:confused:

Indeed. That is why they are stuck at little local shows and if they get quality clients? They can't keep them so they can advance to bigger shows.

The crap economy is already well along in the "weeding" in this area. There are at least 3 long time local level trainers that never kept clients now persuing other career opportunities. The stream of naive new people has dried up.

rockfordbuckeye
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:54 AM
I don't see a problem with it. My trainer is showing my greenie this year because I am not ready myself. While I can ride ok at home we were worried that with show nerves + nervous very baby greenie the combination would give the horse and myself a bad experience. I made the right choice. My horse is getting a great experience and I'm learning as well as I get to watch her and see how the trainer is handling issues. Hopefully by the end of the season I will be ready myself. My trainer is making sure that I AM learning how to ride the horse too but we are doing that at home.

The trainers at our barn will often show our horses in warm up type classes before the students show and I think it's a good way to help school the horses and give the students a chance to kinda see how it is done before it's their turn to go for it. It instills confidence in the students and the horse and makes everyone generally happy.

Flash44
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:16 AM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

Giddy-up
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:26 AM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

So a horse can't show in pre-green (3') with my trainer & then show in adults (3') with me on the weekend? What am I supposed to show in then?

laughATTACK
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:28 AM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

I find this to be an utterly ridiculous statement. I know of many children's and amateur riders that show on the weekends that just can't get to the horse show during the week - whether it's because of school, work or whatever. And while many of these children's and A/A horses are VERY suitable for their divisions, maybe one of them needs a tour of the ring or a tune-up or what have you. Or, as the above poster mentioned, they're showing in what would be termed a "pro division" that runs when their owner and/or rider can't get to the ring. Just because of that, they're UNSUITABLE for a child or amateur rider? Give me a break.

Hauwse
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:30 AM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

That might be the silliest thing I have heard in awhile.

Where do you think children/ammy horses come from?

It is a balancing act, the majority of children/ammy horses are developed over time. General process is a combination of pro/ammy/child rides, the horse gets the development and the ammy/child can then progress along with the horse, goal being that at some point along the development spectrum the horse no longer needs pro rides, and the ammy/child can continue the development process.

It is rarely the made horse you see in this scenario unless they are capable well beyond the scope of the owner, but horses that are still being developed.

If I was an ammy or child who's horse was capable of doing the derbies etc. with pro and I was incapable for whatever reason, your damn right I would want my horse going in those classes under a pro.

findeight
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:36 AM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

Yeah, but they don't. Never have and never will...and, really, a Pro ride on a Wednesday helps the horse alot and the kid or adult is not even there to take advantage of the Open classes. The rider still has to get it around on the weekend and witout the opportunity to school the course in most cases.

And, when I got to a show on a Friday night? You bet my Pro rode ONE warm up class on Saturday before I did my 2 Adult rounds. So what? I still didn't win most of the time.

Now, your little local 1 or 2 day shows where you can school over the actual courses before they start and a Pro rides a division then the kid rides theirs plus Eq and the horse ends up in 16 classes? THAT is not my favorite thing to see. But those are the Pros that get stuck there, not the ones that are working towards a goal for their clients. Clients that do not stay.

Rel6
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:58 AM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

Thats so stupid. What about those ammys and juniors that cannot afford made childrens or a/a packers? Yea, the horse needs a tune up pro ride before because god forbid someone has a childrens or a/a horse that isn't perfect.

findeight
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:28 AM
Thats so stupid. What about those ammys and juniors that cannot afford made childrens or a/a packers? Yea, the horse needs a tune up pro ride before because god forbid someone has a childrens or a/a horse that isn't perfect.

Well, that is what they are judged on, closest to perfect wins. Judged on the trip they turn in, not who rode them in another class. Or how hard the kid worked. Or what the trainer's pet theories are on how it is better to suck on your own with a sub par performance then get a ribbon under a Pro for a perfect one.

mrsbradbury
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:31 PM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

Ummm, how do you think they're made? My kids who are showinf pre-childrens and schooling to get ready for the childrens, sometimes get nervous, maybe oversteer and fail to show their horse the jump; and whoopsie we didn't get there.

Because, I toured the ring on said horsey, he says to girlie... "It's over here! I'll get you there." Otherwise, he doesn't realize where he's going, and is susposed to be punished for a jump his rider didn't steer him to?

Or maybe this, I picked crap horses for my clients, and I fail as an instructor because they make mistakes during the LEARNING PROCESS! Showing is stressful enough, and I know that a good pro ride goes a LONG way in making a horse a solid citizen.

GingerJumper
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:44 PM
Haven't read all these posts, so I apologize if I'm going over something for the thousandth time.

Personally, if you are not capable of giving your horse a solid ride except in extenuating circumstances (you're injured, horse is going ballistic and you can't handle that, etc) then there is NO reason for a trainer to have to ride the horse! If I want to see my horse move, I video my ride or longe him.

The problem I often see, is people being directed towards green horses or thinking they can handle something green when really, they can't, and then they have the trainer ride it all the time for them at home and at shows.

I would say more, but I'm a little fearful of stepping into a firefight lol.

mvp
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:46 PM
All right, I'll be a total hard-a$$ for a moment and support Flash's logic.

How cool would it be if the kid's horse had to be broke enough for the kid to manage alone at this one show? Think pony club rallies.

Kid would have to be a better rider/horseman. The competition among kid-ridden horses would restore the emphasis on "manners and suitability" that has been lost. Maybe, just maybe, we could see a horse who did flick an ear or swish his tail, but took wonderful care of his rider..... which was the original point of the hunter division.

ExJumper
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:53 PM
:eek: Put down the cup! You are drinking the crazy kool-aid!! Well now we all know your trainer just rules your life & obviously tells you what to do & what you can/can't ride your horse in. Poor ExJumper...:no: Next thing you know, your braider will probably have an opinion too! ;)

I've been meaning to tell your mom to stop telling that I shouldn't be riding... :lol:


Haven't read all these posts, so I apologize if I'm going over something for the thousandth time.

Personally, if you are not capable of giving your horse a solid ride except in extenuating circumstances (you're injured, horse is going ballistic and you can't handle that, etc) then there is NO reason for a trainer to have to ride the horse! If I want to see my horse move, I video my ride or longe him.

The problem I often see, is people being directed towards green horses or thinking they can handle something green when really, they can't, and then they have the trainer ride it all the time for them at home and at shows.

I would say more, but I'm a little fearful of stepping into a firefight lol.

How about the take the "need" out of the equation. No, I don't "need" my pro to ride my horse. I could probably get both of out fat asses up and over 8 fences. But I WANT her to ride him. I like to watch him go. I like to see how he stacks up against other nices horses getting good pro-type rides. I like to have her ride him. I do not NEED to have her ride him.


All right, I'll be a total hard-a$$ for a moment and support Flash's logic.

How cool would it be if the kid's horse had to be broke enough for the kid to manage alone at this one show? Think pony club rallies.

Kid would have to be a better rider/horseman. The competition among kid-ridden horses would restore the emphasis on "manners and suitability" that has been lost. Maybe, just maybe, we could see a horse who did flick an ear or swish his tail, but took wonderful care of his rider..... which was the original point of the hunter division.

We do. It's called Pony Finals.

findeight
Jun. 1, 2011, 01:45 PM
Yeah, Pony Finals where nobody but that kid can touch it...and the same kids and Ponies win anyway.

Generally, I am talking about the USEF AA level rated shows where you HAVE to be perfect and it costs too much to go in and suck just to say you did it all by yourself.

All are welcome to do Pony Club rallies, 4H or local shows if they want to do it themselves against their peer group that does it themselves. That is fine.

But just because you disagree does not mean that there is NO GOOD REASON for a Pro ride when there are as many reasons as there are people who show.

ExJumper
Jun. 1, 2011, 02:05 PM
Yeah, Pony Finals where nobody but that kid can touch it...and the same kids and Ponies win anyway.

There appears to be this idea out there that there are hundreds and hundreds of rich kids (and adults) prowling through the A circuit who can't ride for shit yet win again and again because they have some mystical "push button" horse what requires no ability to ride.

Yes, they can afford to buy quality. Yes, they can afford the best trainers and prep. Yes, they can afford to go to lot of shows. But once those kids (and adults) are out there in the ring, they still have to ride the horse! There are a lot of ladies with WAY nicer horses than I have, but at the level I show, I can hang in there with them if they aren't perfect every time.

And you know what? They aren't perfect every time! They chip, they launch, they overshoot a turn just like the rest of us.

And if they AREN'T making any mistakes? It's because they ride better than I do. Not because they have money or a majikal horse.

And THAT, people, is why the same kids that win the pony classes throughout the year, win at Pony Finals. Because the people who win a lot do so because they ride well.

Money helps, and training helps, but nothing counts when you get out there except what you're capable of doing at that very moment.

LochNessD
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:05 PM
There appears to be this idea out there that there are hundreds and hundreds of rich kids (and adults) prowling through the A circuit who can't ride for shit yet win again and again because they have some mystical "push button" horse what requires no ability to ride.

Yes, they can afford to buy quality. Yes, they can afford the best trainers and prep. Yes, they can afford to go to lot of shows. But once those kids (and adults) are out there in the ring, they still have to ride the horse! There are a lot of ladies with WAY nicer horses than I have, but at the level I show, I can hang in there with them if they aren't perfect every time.

And you know what? They aren't perfect every time! They chip, they launch, they overshoot a turn just like the rest of us.

And if they AREN'T making any mistakes? It's because they ride better than I do. Not because they have money or a majikal horse.

And THAT, people, is why the same kids that win the pony classes throughout the year, win at Pony Finals. Because the people who win a lot do so because they ride well.

Money helps, and training helps, but nothing counts when you get out there except what you're capable of doing at that very moment.


Nice rant, but I thought the point was that the kids were STILL winning, regardless of who is schooling the pony, because they can actually ride.

ExJumper
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:10 PM
Nice rant, but I thought the point was that the kids were STILL winning, regardless of who is schooling the pony, because they can actually ride.

That was the point of my post. That although money buys quality and training, the kids (and adults) still have to be able to ride. If their horses are going around perfectly all the time, the rider is doing her job. Your trainer can ride it all the rest of the time, but you still have to march your ass out there and find eight at the horse show.

gottagrey
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:31 PM
There are simply too many variables and too many scenarios to make it a straight agree/disagree answer. What I wouldn't agree with is if this were a requirement of a particular trainer - that they or a top client (in the case of Jr. riders/ponies) compete in classes as a "school" before the client does.


Originally Posted by Flash44
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

Clearly not a well thought out comment - again too many variables and what, you want to punish people for not being able to purchase a push button horse or for some less talented riders to not be able to work the kinks out themselves? Some horses no matter how wonderful they are need to be schooled - when a person is paying relatively large sums of $ to compete - they want to be able to put the best trip forward... for some riders seeing the trainer or pro take the horse around a course of fences gives them added confidence - what is wrong with that? I used to ride a horse that never needed to school or a schooling ride. I could just get on and show. When she retired, my budget restricted me so I opted for a young horse - he was pretty much only broke to ride - no formal training or schooling but very very sane. Why is a problem to have my trainer show him in schooling classes or pre-green? And I showed him locally over lower fences. Quite frankly I was not capable to ride him as accurately down the lines as my trainer.

mvp
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:33 PM
I
We do. It's called Pony Finals.

Hehe. Then Man Up all you people past the age of consent! I think it's hi-sterical that adults can't do what those pipsqueaks can at a big competition.



Generally, I am talking about the USEF AA level rated shows where you HAVE to be perfect and it costs too much to go in and suck just to say you did it all by yourself.

Two things:

If you were competing against your "run to the chip" peers, this would be different.

Showing is expensive for everyone. I assume people who pay-n-play at the top are working hard and paying hard by their standards just the way the middle class is at their level. But *nothing* feels better than being able to say you did it yourself. It's one of the things that keeps me willing to shop and Goodwill so that HorseMeister can stand in $80 of shavings for a week at a show.

ExJumper
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:38 PM
But *nothing* feels better than being able to say you did it yourself.

Maybe for you. There are all sorts of things I enjoy about riding and showing more than being able to say I did something all by myself.

sschuessler
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:54 PM
When my horse was still able to show, I never had a pro ride done at home or at a show. I would take a weekly lesson with my trainer and she helped me a lot. Would a pro ride have helped? Probably. Could I afford it considering I just did the local circuit? No. We did just fine on our own. Yes, we got beat by a lot fancier horses and people who had a pro ride their horse in a division before they rode, but I had the satisfaction of doing it by myself and learning so so much along the way.

That said, I don't see a problem with a pro ride being done if the person is willing and able to pay for it.

Oldenburg99
Jun. 1, 2011, 04:16 PM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.

I disagree. A pro rode my horse for many years before I did (in the open, schooling, etc) so I could get around the ammy division. My trainer specifically said at my last show there was no need for him to ride my horse. I offered to pay for schooling round - he declined and gave me a leg up. How did my sweet, saint of a horse get this way? from a pro riding him. Which got us to where we are today - I can get on horsey and go and he safely carries his nervous, mistake-prone rider around the ring.

LShipley
Jun. 1, 2011, 04:21 PM
I have never had my trainer ride my horse at a show because I would be jealous that I was stuck watching while she had all the fun.

Having said that, when I can afford training rides, I ask my trainer to do them when I am able to come watch. It is incredibly useful for me to watch her aids while she rides my horse. She also provides commentary and will demonstrate the difference between what I do (never pretty) and what she wants me to do. The visual difference is everything for me.

I can see that some visual learners (without my jealous streak) would benefit from watching their trainer ride their horse at shows as a way to help them figure out how to improvise on a course or whatever.

Czar
Jun. 1, 2011, 04:22 PM
. But *nothing* feels better than being able to say you did it yourself.

IMO, a horse having a positive experience feels better than anything else. Been on too many SCREWED up horses to feel much admiration for those who want to do it all themselves & won't accept help when they need to.

It's all about the horse for me - professionals by their very title are people who RIDE for a living...they have more saddle time & almost always more talent than your average rider (which is why they are professionals).

We're talking a living animal here; not a racecar or a tennis racket - it's great to want to get better at this but don't sacrifice the animal to feed your ego.

southernbell
Jun. 1, 2011, 04:53 PM
Yeah, Pony Finals where nobody but that kid can touch it...and the same kids and Ponies win anyway.

Generally, I am talking about the USEF AA level rated shows where you HAVE to be perfect and it costs too much to go in and suck just to say you did it all by yourself.

All are welcome to do Pony Club rallies, 4H or local shows if they want to do it themselves against their peer group that does it themselves. That is fine.

But just because you disagree does not mean that there is NO GOOD REASON for a Pro ride when there are as many reasons as there are people who show.

Hmmmmmm, no. At Pony Finals, no one else can *ride* the pony, however they are still prepped by professionals with lunging and/or horseshow meds as needed to make them rideable or enhance their suitability.

At a Pony Club Rally, the child is expected to not only do all the riding but the prep as well.

gottagrey
Jun. 1, 2011, 05:17 PM
Hmmmmmm, no. At Pony Finals, no one else can *ride* the pony, however they are still prepped by professionals with lunging and/or horseshow meds as needed to make them rideable or enhance their suitability.

At a Pony Club Rally, the child is expected to not only do all the riding but the prep as well.

And receive limited or no coaching. I recall a young rider who was participating in an eventing rally at a rated/recognized event - had to do the entire event w/o any assistance from her coach but could receive limited assistance from fellow pony clubbers. But the standards of eventing and hunters are different. In hunters rhythm, leads and distances are paramount; eventing/pony club not so much. In pony club/eventing there seems to be a greater emphasis on partnership w/your horse than in hunters and jumpers. Not to say there isn't a partnership in h/j its just that perhaps because there is prize money in H/J it's become more important to win or place whereas in eventing many riders are perfectly happy just getting around XC or getting a score below 50 in dressage.

hntrjmprpro45
Jun. 1, 2011, 05:18 PM
IMO, a horse having a positive experience feels better than anything else. Been on too many SCREWED up horses to feel much admiration for those who want to do it all themselves & won't accept help when they need to.

It's all about the horse for me - professionals by their very title are people who RIDE for a living...they have more saddle time & almost always more talent than your average rider (which is why they are professionals).

We're talking a living animal here; not a racecar or a tennis racket - it's great to want to get better at this but don't sacrifice the animal to feed your ego.

Excellent post. I see far more riders who are overfaced or unable to put in the ride that is needed for a challenging horse, whether that means a very quiet, sophisticated ride or a strong, aggressive ride. Some people just lack the finesse and intuition that a pro has to make the proper adjustments for a green or nervous horse. And at the end of the day, it all boils down to the horse.

findeight
Jun. 1, 2011, 05:39 PM
...HorseMeister can stand in $80 of shavings for a week at a show.

Where are you getting shavings for $4 a bag??? A week in a 10x10 tent stall on concrete is at least 20 bags easy. If it doesn't rain too much and flood.

mvp
Jun. 1, 2011, 06:23 PM
Where are you getting shavings for $4 a bag??? A week in a 10x10 tent stall on concrete is at least 20 bags easy. If it doesn't rain too much and flood.

Brought 'em from home where the BO bought them by the tractor trailer load. HorseMeister also has a set of mats-- the holey, piece-together kind you'd find in a professional kitchen. Those and the size of my BO's bags mean I start with 4 or 5 for a pretty good base and go from there.

It isn't bad by my estimation, but HorseMeister reports uneven results.

The mat-phase of the set up makes him wait Too Long on the trailer while the barn is being set up by the help. No good. He says it's annoying but not unsafe if he should happen to paw and expose an edge. He also says, "Who wouldn't like to roll in fluffy stall? With braids in." Also, the siesta is between 1 and 3, show schedule be damned. He'd like you to know that the pawing happens because no horse should be tied up in a stall while drying. But then again, no horse should be bathed more than once a day. He acknowledges that he does like the deep, clean bed that seems uniquely available at shows. That and the mints almost make it worthwhile.

Rosie
Jun. 1, 2011, 07:38 PM
I agree with Czar 1000%.
Getting freakin' tired of all the folks who imply that having a GOOD professional ride or train your horse means you are a talentless/lazy moron.
The number of ammies capable of properly bringing along a young horse without professional help is waaaay lower than the number who THINK they are capable of doing so.
If it makes you feel "special" to DIY, go for it.

Why should anyone care whether I want a trainer to ride my horse at a show? More importantly, how in the world does that indicate that I am incapable of doing so myself?

Wizard of Oz's
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:01 PM
I don't see a problem with it. At my barn, we have a lot of teenagers, and they can't take three days off of school for every show, so a lot of the time our coach will ride the horse in a couple classes during the week so that the students can ride their horses Friday-Sunday.

Carol Ames
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:09 PM
That's right!
Doesn't bother me at all if a trainer shows a student's horse. It is pretty much the norm at shows around my area. Many times the student can not get to the show until later in the week and it is a good opportunity for the horse to get in the show arena and get comfortable at the show grounds before the student arrives. This is especially true for a green horse. Also, many students enjoy seeing their horse be successful in the open divisions with a trainer. A trainer giving a student's horse a good ride/experience over a course in a class just sets the student up to be more successful when they show their own horse on the weekend.

theinstigator
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:13 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Is it a bitter-full moon or something?

doublesstable
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:42 PM
The a/a and childrens divisions should have a rule that the horse cannot be shown by a pro at the same show. If the horse really needs the pro rides, it's not a childrens or a/a horse.


I'm glad Flash44 doesn't make the rules... :lol:

I am a/a and I admit, I don't ride enough, I don't lesson enough "and" I have an amazing horse that "needs" to be in a program but I cannot really afford that program nor do I have the time to fully participate in that program... So what if I show three times a year and want a pro to school my horse over a few courses at a show so he is ready for me to ride so I can be safe and have fun. Even if my horse "is" a true a/a horse, he has his days......

You know, I have come to the realization I am just too old to care what others think of me and my horses. I am not breaking any laws and just because it doesn't suit your taste, it's not my issue; it's yours.

And IMHO, ALL horses could use a pro ride every once in a while....

Carol Ames
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:44 PM
in my earlier years, I could never have afforded to have a pro ride;:no: but after much watching, decided that I wanted people to see how talented Merry :yes:was; rather than how poor my eq was:o and causing problems:mad:; my only regret is not having gotten an ammy card and shown her myself in the jr/ao division; I would never have suspected I would feel the pride I did to hear others say as they crowded onto the porch at Commonwealth; " I love :cool:this horse;); or another say "such a wonderful mare!;)

Wanderluster
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:59 PM
Today I worked with one of those wonderful "do it yourself" types who has gone through horse after horse as she attempts to make "her system" work.
Her system is to buy a two or three year old TB then try to train him without the assistance of a pro.
For now all of her time and energy have resulted in an epic fail.
This woman has an envious energetic and fearless nature but she keeps producing monsters.
We addressed her horse problem and by the end of our session she recognized that allowing help from a trusted professional was like getting your car tuned by a mechanic . Truth is there are hobbyists that can change the oil, set the differential,align the tires but I'd rather pay an expert to do that job.
Passing judgement on a rider choosing to have a pro school a horse prior to their classes is a little :confused:

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:01 PM
I show most of my clients horses in the appropriate open divisions, and my clients then show them in their respective adult or childrens division.

When my clients are at a levell that thier nerves don't undermine the experience, then I will not longer show them.

I haven't seen an issue with trainers holding their clients back or forbidding their clients to show their own horses.

Many of my clinets are mounted on greener horses because that's what their budget allowed. Many of these horses had very limited show mileage. I teach my clients to ride and ride well, but I DO NOT expect a 14 year old, or a timid adult to prep their horse at it's third show.

I can tell you what I don't do. I don't lunge horses for an hour at 5am, I don't use dex or other substances, and I don't particpate in the maddening 7am open schooling disaster. I politely navigate my clients horse around the open division, show it the ropes and give it a positive correct ride, so it has the tools to help my student learn.

I like you! You describe situations that I see frequently that scare me, and explain why you riding the horse earlier in the week in a few classes is superior to these other (all too common) methods of prep.

When my horse no longer needs more correct, positive riding than I can give early in the week the trainer will not ride the horse as much. However, I'm still jittery in the ring sometimes and the trainer can provide a more effective and positive ride on my horse than jittery me can. Even if I do all the right things with jitters the horse may leave the ring nervous, while the trainer is much more polished at creating a subtle, positive and confidence-building ride all at once.

mrsbradbury
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:04 PM
Just a thought I had while working today.

Because I RIDE my clients horses; I will tell you that I take great level of accountibility into it going well. More so, than coaching the rider on a horse I've never sat on.

It doesn't alwyas feel the way it looks. Other times the visual answer is not the right correction.

I teach better because I feel, I can convey it better to you because I know what it feels like. I also can feel you when I ride your horse. Your right hand may look steady, and you horse travels in two tracks, but I feel the tension from your hand when I ride him.

The riding of the horses is the other link of the puzzle, for both horse and rider. I occassioanlly let my students ride my two horses and they are always impressed by the clarity at which they answer their aids.

mackandblues
Jun. 1, 2011, 09:53 PM
I want my trainer to ride my horse in a jumping/CT show. Because we went to our first combined training show a couple months ago. First jumping show for both the horse and I. Well horsey decided she doesn't "do" flowers underneath cross rails and refused to jump. So then it turned into a bad experience for both of us, with horsey running out before several jumps and me losing my confidence. So next CT show my trainer is going to ride horsey to give her a good show jumping experience.

HidingOut
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:58 PM
I have to say, as a professional, most of the BEST ammie horses I know are some of the most stubborn pains in the butt to ride. They typically NEED the training ride the most. I'm not saying all of them are this way!! For the very true ammie the horse needs to be able to ignore inappropriate signals a lot of the time. Unfortunately without the occasional (or in some cases regular) training ride at home and/or shows they start to ignore ALL signals. The point of a training ride is to keep the basics tuned up and keep the horses confidence level up. Even the most experienced horses can lose confidence with consistent mistakes, part of learning is making mistakes, so utilizing a trainer ride just means you can learn and make as many mistakes as it takes without potentially worrying your horse.

I'm not entirely sure why some people see it as such an insult to have a trainer ride their horse. I've had many professionals with more experience in a certain area give me a hand with horses of my own. Getting/asking for help is never the wrong thing and it baffles me that so many people see it as a negative.

rockfordbuckeye
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:21 PM
I agree with Mrsbradbury (and secretly want her for a trainer).

When my trainer has sat on my horse, she and I can take the discussion to a very high level. It's like speaking a foreign language only the two of us know ;) She can say "you know how when Mr. Pickles does such and such?" and I'm like YES and she's like "well here's what I do..." It's so enormously helpful. I learn so much by being able to share the experience of actually riding my horse with her. I learn by watching her ride and I learn by talking with her about both her and my ride. It's like having the marriage counselor at your home during the fight :lol:

I don't think that is a cop out at all. I think that's 1) me caring immensely about my horse having a good experience and 2) me equipping myself with as many tools as I can to ride my horse as well as I possibly can and 3) me being very realistic that I'm not a pro rider and I will never be that good. I just won't b/c I don't spend my entire day doing it. Just like the pro rider would never be as good at my day job as I am if they only did it for an hour 4-5x/week. The show environment for many of us enhances any flaws we have due to nerves and that can really undermine performance. Just because a rider doesn't show well doesn't mean they don't ride well. Or maybe they are the type that cannot handle flubbing in public and laugh it off or whatever. If having the pro sit on the horse for a class soothes nerves and gives knowledge and experience to both horse and rider - how can it be anything other than good?

I'll never be a pro and be able to sit on 10 horses a day and ride them all phenomenal but that's not what I'm trying to do (or what most of us in ammy land are trying to do). I'm trying to ride one horse very well and the pro rides help me get there and help my horse get there - happily.

HobbyHorse101
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:33 PM
I'd love to have my trainer show my horse in classes. However it's out of our budget. Granted that has taught me to handle greenie moments where said horse is not performing changes or wanting to refuse where it would be nice to have a pro hop on and be prepared... but I can handle those moments now. So I guess it's a pro and a con

Pro: The rider learns to handle greenie naughty horses.

Con: Sometimes you don't ribbon 8O

Prime Time Rider
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:37 PM
Haven't read all these posts, so I apologize if I'm going over something for the thousandth time.

Personally, if you are not capable of giving your horse a solid ride except in extenuating circumstances (you're injured, horse is going ballistic and you can't handle that, etc) then there is NO reason for a trainer to have to ride the horse! If I want to see my horse move, I video my ride or longe him.

The problem I often see, is people being directed towards green horses or thinking they can handle something green when really, they can't, and then they have the trainer ride it all the time for them at home and at shows.

I would say more, but I'm a little fearful of stepping into a firefight lol.


This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever read on the COTH forum yet! Just because I might ask my trainer to ride my horse in an open division doesn't mean I'm capable of giving it a solid ride. It doesn't mean that my horse is green. What it could mean is a) my work schedule doesn't allow me to arrive at the show until Friday afternoon; b) my been there done it 15 year old gelding who has shown more than I have needs a tune up ride especially at a show; c) I have a horse that is pre-green eligible and my trainer will show it better than I could ever hope to do so; or any other number of reasons. As long as the trainer isn't showing it in a division that is limited to amateur riders I don't see how this is a conflict,

Prime Time Rider
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:48 PM
I have to say, as a professional, most of the BEST ammie horses I know are some of the most stubborn pains in the butt to ride. They typically NEED the training ride the most. I'm not saying all of them are this way!! For the very true ammie the horse needs to be able to ignore inappropriate signals a lot of the time. Unfortunately without the occasional (or in some cases regular) training ride at home and/or shows they start to ignore ALL signals. The point of a training ride is to keep the basics tuned up and keep the horses confidence level up. Even the most experienced horses can lose confidence with consistent mistakes, part of learning is making mistakes, so utilizing a trainer ride just means you can learn and make as many mistakes as it takes without potentially worrying your horse.

I'm not entirely sure why some people see it as such an insult to have a trainer ride their horse. I've had many professionals with more experience in a certain area give me a hand with horses of my own. Getting/asking for help is never the wrong thing and it baffles me that so many people see it as a negative.

I couldn't agree more! I have a saint of a horse, but after making the same freaking mistake 6 times in a row, even my 15 year been- there done-it former zone champion NEEDS a tune up ride to keep him listening to the appropriate cues. (Bless his heart, God knows he better ignore me when I don't see the distance but make a move anyway, or my favorite, pull to a distance and bury him to the base of the fence).

KateKat
Jun. 2, 2011, 12:35 AM
I'm with the no problem with trainers riding crowd. My horse is great, totally trustworthy and show experienced but...she's new to me. I've never shown her. So you can BET YOUR BUTT that at my first show with her, my trainer is going to be riding her in at least one class. Call me a big fat chicken if you want, but I just know myself in that if something went wrong, I would freeze up there and either hurt myself or my horse. So being able to have my trainer work out any kinks helps my sanity as well as safety in a stressful situation (because honestly, I think most of us Average Joes riding don't get to show enough to really get over the nerves).

And I get the whole wanting to do things yourself-thats normally the type of personality I have. However, I am also a pretty humble person and know when something is above my ability (or even my ability to get there-I KNOW, based on how much I can ride, its doubtful I'll ever feel comfortable going into a ring by myself) and am okay letting someone else with the experience help me out a little.

Ski'sthelimit
Jun. 2, 2011, 02:23 AM
I feel this forum and most of the answers just go to prove what a downfall this sport is becoming.

All about DoWeCheatThemAndHow!

Learn how to ride your horses and ball up. Ride and advance with them.

Having your trainer ride your horse for first 3 days of show before you get on them... Or ride them in classes before just so you have all perfect steps in show, well thats just pitiful. You should be ashamed of that. I would be.

Where is the learning curve? This gives students a crutch, how are they to learn to actually ride?

Ski'sthelimit
Jun. 2, 2011, 02:35 AM
So a horse can't show in pre-green (3') with my trainer & then show in adults (3') with me on the weekend? What am I supposed to show in then?


Get a trainer to actually teach you how to ride. 3' adult or 3' green yourself... Come on its 3' your not in the Rolex

I mean people come on isnt this why we school at home? go to schooling shows and work our way up??

If you are having issues watch your trainer ride. Watch them ride their horses, clients horses, get him/her to hop on yours once a week if you're having serious problems.

But at shows isnt that for you and your horse????

wanderlust
Jun. 2, 2011, 06:21 AM
Typically, the people who come on this board pounding their chests saying "I don't need a trainer" are the ones who need them the most.

Stoney447
Jun. 2, 2011, 06:46 AM
I feel this forum and most of the answers just go to prove what a downfall this sport is becoming.

All about DoWeCheatThemAndHow!

Learn how to ride your horses and ball up. Ride and advance with them.

Having your trainer ride your horse for first 3 days of show before you get on them... Or ride them in classes before just so you have all perfect steps in show, well thats just pitiful. You should be ashamed of that. I would be.

Where is the learning curve? This gives students a crutch, how are they to learn to actually ride?

I think the downfall of our sport is people who think they have the right to dictate that the ONE and ONLY way they see things is the way everyone has to do it.

Who the heck are you that you have the audacity to come on here and preach that people should be ashamed of trying to better themselves and their horses in the way they see fit?

RockinHorse
Jun. 2, 2011, 07:05 AM
I have my trainer ride my horse at home and at shows for a couple of reasons.

1) I bought him as a green prospect and I would like to end up with the best horse I can possibly have. That means having a pro ride him on a regular basis in addition to me. (I have rarely seen a horse brought along by an average ammy without professional riding that I would be willing to own).

2) By having the trainer ride the horse, I feel I get better direction when I ride the horse.

3) I love being able to watch my horse in the show ring. I am constantly amazed at how talented he is turning out to be and it is freakin' fun to be at the in gate knowing I own the horse coming out with the blue :)

RockinHorse
Jun. 2, 2011, 07:09 AM
You know, I think all of the people who think that trainers should not be allowed to ride horses and who think everyone should have to do it themselves are the same ones who think that:

* short strided horses should be able to do the adds in the lines

* if you get an okay distance and get your leads you should win regardless of how the horse actually jumped over the fence

*they do a perfect automatic release

mrsbradbury
Jun. 2, 2011, 07:41 AM
I feel this forum and most of the answers just go to prove what a downfall this sport is becoming.

All about DoWeCheatThemAndHow!

Learn how to ride your horses and ball up. Ride and advance with them.

Having your trainer ride your horse for first 3 days of show before you get on them... Or ride them in classes before just so you have all perfect steps in show, well thats just pitiful. You should be ashamed of that. I would be.

Where is the learning curve? This gives students a crutch, how are they to learn to actually ride?

Since this is a debate, I am going to addres OP directly.

First, your gradiose statement about cheating is way off base. The system is set up with open classes, ammy classes and youth (I luminpg all the under 18 divisions here.) clases. All of which that have their own specs regarding horse/ rider classification; and horses and riders and various combinations can enter any division they like as long as they fit the specs. Having a pro show a horse is not cheating.

There are also owners who cannot ride (physical issues btw, I have one.); and you are telling me to have her BALL UP? She loves watching me ride/ show her horse. I didn't sell him to her, she brought him to me and when he came he was a disaster, never having had a good ride in his life.

Why don't you show your clients horses? ever? Are you incapable of keepig your nerves under control? You don't have to be as accountible if yor client does it all "on thier own"; you can blame it on them.

In my experience the loudest barkers of ridiculuos change are the people that are too limited to particpate themselves.

Now I'm getting nasty. OP I think your scared, you can't face down an upper level jump. You teach from fear, and you belittle your clients. You won't walk in the ring on a clients horse because you don't have the BALLS to pull it off.

For the record, I don't have to ride my clients horses to show, I maintain two of my own. So let me ask you, do you show at all, on something you own? Or are you the snarly trainer in the golf-cart preaching antiquated technique to rough handed teens, on hot, unorthodox, almost frightening jumpers.

RockinHorse
Jun. 2, 2011, 08:24 AM
Wait, the OP is a "trainer" ? :eek::eek::eek:

findeight
Jun. 2, 2011, 08:37 AM
Wait, the OP is a "trainer" ? :eek::eek::eek:

Well, she has implied she is...but over on Horse Care moans about living 400 miles from the nearest show or some such and disses the farrier who (correctly) treated her horse for White Line Disease-which she claims the horse did not have then says she does not know what WLD is.

Have to look at what time some of these things get posted too...late night ramblings. Probably from somebody beaten by a Pro ridden horse in an Open class who wants to "level the playing field" so she can win. Yet another version of the "that's no fair" threads that bemoan the fact you have to be good to win.

magnolia73
Jun. 2, 2011, 08:44 AM
I think my trainer is fairly representative of most- she gets on the horses to give them a good experience, not to make more money or avoid teaching. If she is such a bad teacher, why can her students hop on my horse when she is being naughty and get her going equally as well?

Frankly, it's not really your business why people have trainers ride for them. I have some pretty nasty anxiety issues these days. It is more fun for me to watch my horse shown than to show her. I ride for fun. Who knows, some day I may be the queen of the long stirrup.

I know people love the stereotype- the evil nasty money grubbing trainer with the clueless adult who can't ride for shit and wouldn't know a snaffle if it hit them in the head who pays scads of money to win ribbons. It probably makes you feel better when you get beat. But the reality is that most of us are caring horsemen who want to see our horses have the best experience possible under the guidance of a competent and kind trainer.

mvp
Jun. 2, 2011, 08:50 AM
I feel this forum and most of the answers just go to prove what a downfall this sport is becoming.

All about DoWeCheatThemAndHow!

Learn how to ride your horses and ball up. Ride and advance with them.


Typically, the people who come on this board pounding their chests saying "I don't need a trainer" are the ones who need them the most.


You know, I think all of the people who think that trainers should not be allowed to ride horses and who think everyone should have to do it themselves are the same ones who think that:

* short strided horses should be able to do the adds in the lines

* if you get an okay distance and get your leads you should win regardless of how the horse actually jumped over the fence

*they do a perfect automatic release

Jesus! How did you guys get so mean?

At this point, those who pay pros to help them are cheaters or are being cheated. The DIYers are bad riders who want everyone else to ride badly, too.

I can't come over to your house to play anymore.

Giddy-up
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:00 AM
Get a trainer to actually teach you how to ride. 3' adult or 3' green yourself... Come on its 3' your not in the Rolex

I mean people come on isnt this why we school at home? go to schooling shows and work our way up??

If you are having issues watch your trainer ride. Watch them ride their horses, clients horses, get him/her to hop on yours once a week if you're having serious problems.

But at shows isnt that for you and your horse????

Well thanks for your enlightened tip, but I HAVE A JOB WHICH ALSO PAYS FOR MY HORSE & TRAINER so how can I show during the week??

I never claimed 3' to be Rolex or that I was incapable. In fact I am quite capable thank you very much. :D But why not let the horse get some mileage with a trainer during the week when I am at work IF I am already spending all the $$$ to be there for the weekend?? From a financial standpoint it makes sense.

And how is having your trainer ride your horse now considered cheating??

ExJumper
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:04 AM
Guys, the OP says some seriously insane sh!t in this thread:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305610

I'm thinking she's one of those 14 year old girls with a "stable" of "virtual horses" or some such nonsense. She can't possibly be for real -- her statements are complete nonsense.

wanderlust
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:09 AM
Jesus! How did you guys get so mean?

At this point, those who pay pros to help them are cheaters or are being cheated. The DIYers are bad riders who want everyone else to ride badly, too.

I can't come over to your house to play anymore. mvp, if I was really mean, I would have posted a video of the OP riding one of her "rescue TBs." It certainly lends credence to my previous post.

Giddy-up
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:12 AM
mvp, if I was really mean, I would have posted a video of the OP riding one of her "rescue TBs." It certainly lends credence to my previous post.

I think you should be REALLY mean & go for it. :yes:

wanderlust
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:16 AM
I think you should be REALLY mean & go for it. :yes: So. very. tempting. :lol:

findeight
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:29 AM
mvp, if I was really mean, I would have posted a video of the OP riding one of her "rescue TBs."


Oh, come on, don't tease like that..spoil sport:mad:. There are some pictures of her horse's feet over on Horse Care on the thread where she says the farriers ruined it, something about back feet bleeding, she does not know what WLD is but her horse does not have it. Good times.

Oh, we are missing a key element here...handing the horse to a...GROOM. That is a sure indication of ignorance and these people should not be allowed in the show there needs to be a rule against it.

I think this OP slammed the polite door when she called the many trainers who post on here crooks taking advantage of clients and those of us who use trainer services lazy and ignorant. Rather insulting, actually.

fordtraktor
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:47 AM
OP sounds sour grapes to me, not sure what her agenda is but she has one. I can't imagine why anyone would care that a pro rides an ammy's or kid's horse. I wish I could afford a pro to ride mine, I'm sure they would look great.

But I also like to do it myself, with occasional lessons or clinics to put me down the right path. I've never had a problem getting a green horse around the lower levels. You don't need to be that accurate at 3' and below, even with a greenie. With a firm, supportive ride, they will be able to get around fine no matter how many times you aren't at the perfect distance.

But if I had a horse looking to go Level 5 or above, I would pay someone else to ride it, I just don't have the nerve or the eye for it. In retrospect I wish I'd had my trainer show my junior jumper -- he could have been a grand prix horse and not had to suffer through trying to get me around.

I guess I'm the worst of all, I want a trainer to show my made horses, not the green ones!

danceronice
Jun. 2, 2011, 10:19 AM
You know, I think all of the people who think that trainers should not be allowed to ride horses and who think everyone should have to do it themselves are the same ones who think that:

* short strided horses should be able to do the adds in the lines

Actually, I think they should. If a 15.1 hh horse has a pretty, safe jump and would be a good ride in a hunt field (which is really more important than pretty, or should be), they should not be penalized for not being able to get the same line as a 17.2hh monstrosity.

As for the OP, geez, what, you went in open or greens and got your butt whipped by a pro? It's called open. You only want to show against ammys, show in the A/O.

doublesstable
Jun. 2, 2011, 10:26 AM
I feel this forum and most of the answers just go to prove what a downfall this sport is becoming.

All about DoWeCheatThemAndHow!

Learn how to ride your horses and ball up. Ride and advance with them.

Having your trainer ride your horse for first 3 days of show before you get on them... Or ride them in classes before just so you have all perfect steps in show, well thats just pitiful. You should be ashamed of that. I would be.

Where is the learning curve? This gives students a crutch, how are they to learn to actually ride?

The true "DOWN FALL" of this sport would be discouraging riders and that's exactly what your post does!

You are talking a/a's and children's divisions - - - which these riders (I being one) may have a family, a job, a home they are responsible for and SHOULD make sure they are safe....

Being a woman, I really don't have "balls" per se; but I can ride a rank or fresh horse if need be - - but if I "pay" my trainer to make my round a safe one, I think that's the smart thing to do.

All my riding life I have been the DIY type and I am NOT ashamed to have my trainer prep one of my horses if need be....

You should be ashamed of your post because you are not in someone else's shoes and don't know what they are going through and you should not insult someone that simply wants to compete...

Oh and how does one learn how to ride??? By riding with a good trainer!

I have learned more in my riding life by working with a good trainer, having that trainer school my horse, then I ride in lessons; than by bolting around on a green broke horse... (did that for many years)

wanderlust
Jun. 2, 2011, 10:38 AM
Actually, I think they should. If a 15.1 hh horse has a pretty, safe jump and would be a good ride in a hunt field (which is really more important than pretty, or should be), they should not be penalized for not being able to get the same line as a 17.2hh monstrosity. That's been debated to death... there is very little in the modern show hunter that has to do with being functional in the field. But if you are going to go there, it's a lot of extra work for the horse to be short-strided in the hunt field. There are also plenty of small horses that can walk the lines. I have a 15.3 hander that even as a small yak of a just-broke 3yo could eat up the lines.

loshad
Jun. 2, 2011, 10:45 AM
In my day I have ridden the rank, the green, the POSes, polo ponies, Arabians, horses off the track (and OT Arabians :eek::winkgrin:), and the out and out insane. I am perfectly capable of riding through my horse's more interesting moments (even though, as we have established earlier, I generally ride like a drunken howler monkey). HOWEVER, I also have the remnants of injury that riding the aforementioned beasties tends to leave. I hurt. A lot. When my horse was green I generally preferred to have someone else deal with any Little Moments he might have, although I was perfectly capable of handling his issues myself. I also wanted him to have a really nice experience before going around with me and my friends Mr. Longspot and Mr. Chip. Sometimes we let Mr. Perfectspot come along, but he's no fun. :no:

To be perfectly frank, I also like my trainer to ride my horse because, although I can make him look cute, my trainer can make it look like I spent a fortune buying and training that critter. It brings a happy tear to my eye to see him looking that amazing.

Of course, as a 14-year-old (or so), I might have taken the same stance as the OP, but a) I knew much less then than I do now and b) I (thankfully) would not have been able to parade my profound ignorance of shows, training, and general horse care on the interwebz.

magnolia73
Jun. 2, 2011, 10:53 AM
my trainer can make it look like I spent a fortune buying and training that critter. It brings a happy tear to my eye to see him looking that amazing.


OMG, when my trainer showed Niki I was so all proud mama verclempt. I was like that's MY horse loping around with the perfect changes and distances. That's MY horse who doesn't need to be shuffled into the jumpers. I KNEW she had it in her to look like an expensive warmblood.

LilyandBaron
Jun. 2, 2011, 10:56 AM
I've never seen this at good barns in the h/j world. The people with the money to afford top trainers know they can either ride their horse or watch the trainer ride it, and I've seen plenty of riders that actually weren't capable riders leave a trainer trying to help them for one that would kiss their butt and let them go into a class they weren't really ready for. But I did see this in the Saddlebred world - the trainers teach the students to "equitate" and not actually ride. It's job security for the trainers because the horses stay in "training" forever.

I see a bit of that in hunters - instead of teaching a student how to train their horse, the trainer does that part and then the rider shows the result. But it's not wrong - just a choice on the client's part of what service they want from the trainer - to train the horse or train the rider to train the horse. If I had a top-bred horse that I wanted to breed or sell, for example, I would pay the pro to get the results. If it's my personal project, I'd rather do the training and know I may not win as much.

doublesstable
Jun. 2, 2011, 11:01 AM
I've never seen this at good barns in the h/j world. The people with the money to afford top trainers know they can either ride their horse or watch the trainer ride it, and I've seen plenty of riders that actually weren't capable riders leave a trainer trying to help them for one that would kiss their butt and let them go into a class they weren't really ready for. But I did see this in the Saddlebred world - the trainers teach the students to "equitate" and not actually ride. It's job security for the trainers because the horses stay in "training" forever.

I see a bit of that in hunters - instead of teaching a student how to train their horse, the trainer does that part and then the rider shows the result. But it's not wrong - just a choice on the client's part of what service they want from the trainer - to train the horse or train the rider to train the horse. If I had a top-bred horse that I wanted to breed or sell, for example, I would pay the pro to get the results. If it's my personal project, I'd rather do the training and know I may not win as much.


This is very true and brings up a point that the OP should keep in mind - - -

Just because "a" trainer rides a student's horse doesn't mean the student is not learning to ride - - - a "bad" trainer is the issue...... and they are out there!

Edited to add - OP asked for a debate, but there is a difference between debate and fight..... clearly the OP feels the subject is "not" debatable by saying trainers riding students horses is the down fall to the sport... :lol:

Giddy-up
Jun. 2, 2011, 11:44 AM
Oh, come on, don't tease like that..spoil sport:mad:. There are some pictures of her horse's feet over on Horse Care on the thread where she says the farriers ruined it, something about back feet bleeding, she does not know what WLD is but her horse does not have it. Good times.

Oh, we are missing a key element here...handing the horse to a...GROOM. That is a sure indication of ignorance and these people should not be allowed in the show there needs to be a rule against it.

I think this OP slammed the polite door when she called the many trainers who post on here crooks taking advantage of clients and those of us who use trainer services lazy and ignorant. Rather insulting, actually.

F8--I think JAWs best sums it all up. :winkgrin:

mvp
Jun. 2, 2011, 12:07 PM
I see a bit of that in hunters - instead of teaching a student how to train their horse, the trainer does that part and then the rider shows the result. But it's not wrong - just a choice on the client's part of what service they want from the trainer - to train the horse or train the rider to train the horse. If I had a top-bred horse that I wanted to breed or sell, for example, I would pay the pro to get the results. If it's my personal project, I'd rather do the training and know I may not win as much.

The bolded part is the important distinction. I'll say that I have seen a bit of this in Hunter World. It looks like the Pro gets on and warms the horse up with the rider standing at the edge of the schooling ring. When the horse is ready (and I have overheard these instructions), the trainer says "OK, he's ready. Just don't DO anything."

Poor rider! We'd all like to be tactful and accurate. We'd all like to give that minimalist ride that is "doing nothing." But how do you learn to do that, or recover from having made a "big move" if your trainer doesn't teach the kind of "riding" that's also about "training" or really influencing the horse.

Of course, I don't know what goes on at home behind these warm-ups. So long as horse, client and trainer are happy, what's the difference? Until the OP started talking about the downfall of the sport, I took this thread to be one if discussion that would have different perspective. That's what we do here, people.

OK, so let me know when the very last part of the train has come to a stop in this wreck. I don't want it falling on me.

gottagrey
Jun. 2, 2011, 12:25 PM
I'm glad Flash44 doesn't make the rules... :lol:

I am a/a and I admit, I don't ride enough, I don't lesson enough "and" I have an amazing horse that "needs" to be in a program but I cannot really afford that program nor do I have the time to fully participate in that program... So what if I show three times a year and want a pro to school my horse over a few courses at a show so he is ready for me to ride so I can be safe and have fun. Even if my horse "is" a true a/a horse, he has his days......

You know, I have come to the realization I am just too old to care what others think of me and my horses. I am not breaking any laws and just because it doesn't suit your taste, it's not my issue; it's yours.

And IMHO, ALL horses could use a pro ride every once in a while....

Are you me?:) this is exactly my life at the present time!:lol:

Rosie
Jun. 2, 2011, 02:08 PM
mvp,
My comments were not meant to be “mean”, and certainly not directed towards any one person.
I’ve been a member on these forums for quite a while and there’s never any shortage of new threads started (usually by new posters) that are based on the following topics:
- People who use trainers to ride/train/sell/buy horses are not as good/smart/talented as people who do it themselves.
- People who ride warmbloods are not as good/smart/talented riders as those who ride OTTBs.
- People who use grooms are not as good/smart/talented as those who do not.
(etc. etc. etc)

Now, my guess is that most of these are started by clueless teenagers who don’t have enough experience at life to realize that things are rarely that simple. But, there does seem to be a bit of a bias by many on here that always doing things yourself = being a better horseman. Which I absolutely disagree with.

IMO, knowing when to rely on good professional assistance is CRITICAL to being a good horseman. Whether the assistance is from a vet, farrier, or trainer - it should always come down to what is best for the horse - not for one’s ego.

I am a very “hands on” owner. I read, watch, practice, ask questions and generally try to continually become a better horseman - both in the saddle and out. I’ve owned OTTBs, WBs, QHs, and “mutts” - ridden barrels, reining, cutting, jumpers, hunters and trails. Had my horses literally in my backyard and in AA show barns. I’m “capable” of a lot of things - including “training” a horse. I’m capable of and usually do warm my own horse up at shows. But if I run into real problems you can bet I will be either turning it over to my trainer to deal with (while I observe/discuss) or working thru it with his close supervision.

I CHOOSE to use a trainer because IME, the very best horses I have sat on have been the result of really good, professional training. And I want my horse to be the very best he can be. Not just the best I can make him. And there IS a difference.

doublesstable
Jun. 2, 2011, 02:16 PM
Shoot all the years of cleaning stalls, tack, working my rear off body shaving horses to pay my entry fees, grooming, tacking up, bathing, riding rank horses to make a buck, buying the "cheap" horse because I cannot spend the money to have a "expensive" one... I savor every moment when I hand my horse off to a groom I paid for... :lol: Doens't happen as much as I would like it to.

Not that I don't mind doing all that stuff; and still do - - but there is a time in life that there are soooo many other things going on and I need the help... but to each their own....

And so what if I dream of spending time in a box seat, watching the horse show, sipping wine with some really nice folks!!! I guess I'm just old!

doublesstable
Jun. 2, 2011, 02:17 PM
Are you me?:) this is exactly my life at the present time!:lol:

:lol: Hey, if we had more time we could hang out!!!! :yes:

Czar
Jun. 2, 2011, 02:54 PM
mvp,
My comments were not meant to be “mean”, and certainly not directed towards any one person.
I’ve been a member on these forums for quite a while and there’s never any shortage of new threads started (usually by new posters) that are based on the following topics:
- People who use trainers to ride/train/sell/buy horses are not as good/smart/talented as people who do it themselves.
- People who ride warmbloods are not as good/smart/talented riders as those who ride OTTBs.
- People who use grooms are not as good/smart/talented as those who do not.
(etc. etc. etc)

Now, my guess is that most of these are started by clueless teenagers who don’t have enough experience at life to realize that things are rarely that simple. But, there does seem to be a bit of a bias by many on here that always doing things yourself = being a better horseman. Which I absolutely disagree with.

IMO, knowing when to rely on good professional assistance is CRITICAL to being a good horseman. Whether the assistance is from a vet, farrier, or trainer - it should always come down to what is best for the horse - not for one’s ego.

I am a very “hands on” owner. I read, watch, practice, ask questions and generally try to continually become a better horseman - both in the saddle and out. I’ve owned OTTBs, WBs, QHs, and “mutts” - ridden barrels, reining, cutting, jumpers, hunters and trails. Had my horses literally in my backyard and in AA show barns. I’m “capable” of a lot of things - including “training” a horse. I’m capable of and usually do warm my own horse up at shows. But if I run into real problems you can bet I will be either turning it over to my trainer to deal with (while I observe/discuss) or working thru it with his close supervision.

I CHOOSE to use a trainer because IME, the very best horses I have sat on have been the result of really good, professional training. And I want my horse to be the very best he can be. Not just the best I can make him. And there IS a difference.

Yes yes yes :yes: Especially the bolded part

findeight
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:08 PM
I would like the OP to clarify something for me...I know she probably will not be back on here before midnite but...

So, say you have a client (over 12 and owning their own horse as you have specified is all you take) with a Jumper.

That client sits behind the motion, never gets off the horse's back over a fence, has a very loose leg and seat that move around alot, stiffs it in the mouth almost every landing then has to pull back so hard the mouth gaps and has the head tied down with a way too tight running martingale.

So, the advantage to letting this client go around a puddle Jumpers course instead of a qualified Pro is???? The horse benefits because???? And the horse learns????

I don't get it.

MyssMyst
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:11 PM
I'm calling :yawn: on this one. OP, please keep your fingers off the crazy cakes. They are not helping you. This isn't grounds for a debate, as you're not willing to see the opposite side of the issue. All you created this post for was to spout off your craziness. I am taking my sanity and wandering into a different thread.

ExJumper
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:13 PM
I'm calling :yawn: on this one. OP, please keep your fingers off the crazy cakes. They are not helping you. This isn't grounds for a debate, as you're not willing to see the opposite side of the issue. All you created this post for was to spout off your craziness. I am taking my sanity and wandering into a different thread.

There's a nice train wreck starting by the OP's virtual twin about the evils of GROOMS!!!

Come hang out oer there!

Go Fish
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:14 PM
I CHOOSE to use a trainer because IME, the very best horses I have sat on have been the result of really good, professional training. And I want my horse to be the very best he can be. Not just the best I can make him. And there IS a difference.

Where is the clapping icon?

red mares
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:22 PM
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;5641525]I've never seen this at good barns in the h/j world. The people with the money to afford top trainers know they can either ride their horse or watch the trainer ride it, and I've seen plenty of riders that actually weren't capable riders leave a trainer trying to help them for one that would kiss their butt and let them go into a class they weren't really ready for. But I did see this in the Saddlebred world - the trainers teach the students to "equitate" and not actually ride. It's job security for the trainers because the horses stay in "training" forever.

=QUOTE]

Saddlebreds are just different than hunters or jumpers. There isn't the same abundance of shows, not really a B,C,D or local circuits, mostly just A shows. Some areas are the exception. It was pointed out to me recently that to get in the money, not win, on the KY county fair circuit, expect to spend $80 to $100K. For that kind of money, you keep the horse with a trainer. Not all of them are that expensive, mine sure isn't, but its apples to oranges.

But for the record, Mom taught me to ride, not "equitate"; not every is an equitation princess who has their horse in training for years. However, most of those same equitation princess can ride through a fire extinquisher like the rest of us.

doublesstable
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:27 PM
I'm calling :yawn: on this one. OP, please keep your fingers off the crazy cakes. They are not helping you. This isn't grounds for a debate, as you're not willing to see the opposite side of the issue. All you created this post for was to spout off your craziness. I am taking my sanity and wandering into a different thread.

:yes: :lol: - totally agree expecially don't understand when someone wants to "debate" and already has their mind solidly set.

TrakeGirl
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:29 PM
I also wanted him to have a really nice experience before going around with me and my friends Mr. Longspot and Mr. Chip. Sometimes we let Mr. Perfectspot come along, but he's no fun. :no:

Hey, we have the same friends!

doublesstable
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:35 PM
Hey, we have the same friends!


Do you have Mr. whatleadchange in your friend list? I know I see him quite often!!

TrakeGirl
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:41 PM
Do you have Mr. whatleadchange in your friend list?

No, I don’t personally right now – but if he knows Mr. Grab N. Bolt or Mr. FallsinAroundCorners, maybe we could all go out for beers together!!

gottagrey
Jun. 2, 2011, 03:50 PM
if you want your trainer to ride your horse great! I dont see anything wrong with that. Where i find / see / hear of issues is students being held back while trainers are showing their horses in classes that the student could be showing and succeeding in. All in that same scenario trainer is telling student they are basically incapable of showing at that level.

Do you not see this happen?

Well except other than in OPEN classes that can't be done - a trainer/pro cannot ride a Jr clients horse in Jr. Hunter, Jr. Pleasure, Children's Hunter, Jr./Children's Jumpers and so forth. Likewise a trainer cannot ride in A/O hunter, A/O Jumpers, AA Hunter, Adult Hunters... and in the scenarios where a trainer you are assuming the trainer is holding the rider back - perhaps it is to actually move the rider UP.. so trainer takes horse in Working Hunter for client.. horse is then prepped for the A/O hunters for perhaps the client who moved up from the 3' AA or Childrens hunter to A/O or Jr.Hunters...

Again, there are too many variables and scenarios

loshad
Jun. 2, 2011, 04:04 PM
No, I don’t personally right now – but if he knows Mr. Grab N. Bolt or Mr. FallsinAroundCorners, maybe we could all go out for beers together!!

I don't know either of them, but try not to take Miss Countercantercuzican. She gets a few in her and turns into Miss WTFNoWay. It's embarrassing. Next thing you know, you're lying in the ring with sand in your mouth, a pounding headache, and no idea how you got there. Kind of like The Hangover only without the smooth musical stylings of Mr. Mike Tyson. Also no hookers.

findeight
Jun. 2, 2011, 08:36 PM
I dunno, Ms. Mare had the "I don't want to and you can't make me" down regarding corner cutting and swapping off for 6 strides in single tempe-behind only past the in gate. That for moi and assorted very good Pros, including a USET medal finals winner.

So would OP prefer I continue to hash it out at $55usd a class with OP just shouting advice from the rail (I could not hear), or, gasp, get on the dam horse or is she going to enlighten us with tonites midnite ramblings?????

Is there a full moon????

remyman55
Jun. 2, 2011, 10:57 PM
my trainer shows my horse in the adaquans all the time. it looks good to have that on the show record. i just show in the childrens but that doesnt mean my horse maxes out at that level. i believe its completly fine!

seeuatx
Jun. 2, 2011, 11:03 PM
No, I don’t personally right now – but if he knows Mr. Grab N. Bolt or Mr. FallsinAroundCorners, maybe we could all go out for beers together!!

My youngin is intimately involved with Mr. Pretendtospook and Ms. Spinbacktoyourfriends. I keep telling her it is a toxic relationship, but you know kids these days, can't tell them anything ;)

I'm really considering paying a crash test dummy- er, I mean Trainer to ride her in her first (hunter) horse show. I have my own horseshow nerves to contend with over fences and don't think I need to be putting those on a young horse in her first show. She is a sensitive creature with a long memory... only positive experiences are allowed.

RugBug
Jun. 2, 2011, 11:39 PM
I don't know either of them, but try not to take Miss Countercantercuzican. She gets a few in her and turns into Miss WTFNoWay. It's embarrassing. Next thing you know, you're lying in the ring with sand in your mouth, a pounding headache, and no idea how you got there. Kind of like The Hangover only without the smooth musical stylings of Mr. Mike Tyson. Also no hookers.

Funniest.Post.Ever. (or at least on this thread.


Well, she has implied she is...but over on Horse Care moans about living 400 miles from the nearest show or some such and disses the farrier who (correctly) treated her horse for White Line Disease-which she claims the horse did not have then says she does not know what WLD is.

Have to look at what time some of these things get posted too...late night ramblings. Probably from somebody beaten by a Pro ridden horse in an Open class who wants to "level the playing field" so she can win. Yet another version of the "that's no fair" threads that bemoan the fact you have to be good to win.

She's got a LinkedIn account that lists her as a trainer in NorCal (like WAY north). The business name comes up with no google results and looks like it might be named after a trainer she once rode under/for? No show results come up for her. Picture isn't terrible but shows typical faults like jumping ahead with the corresponding lower leg slip.

Ski'sthelimit
Jun. 3, 2011, 03:09 AM
Since this is a debate, I am going to addres OP directly.

First, your gradiose statement about cheating is way off base. The system is set up with open classes, ammy classes and youth (I luminpg all the under 18 divisions here.) clases. All of which that have their own specs regarding horse/ rider classification; and horses and riders and various combinations can enter any division they like as long as they fit the specs. Having a pro show a horse is not cheating.

There are also owners who cannot ride (physical issues btw, I have one.); and you are telling me to have her BALL UP? She loves watching me ride/ show her horse. I didn't sell him to her, she brought him to me and when he came he was a disaster, never having had a good ride in his life.

Why don't you show your clients horses? ever? Are you incapable of keepig your nerves under control? You don't have to be as accountible if yor client does it all "on thier own"; you can blame it on them.

In my experience the loudest barkers of ridiculuos change are the people that are too limited to particpate themselves.

Now I'm getting nasty. OP I think your scared, you can't face down an upper level jump. You teach from fear, and you belittle your clients. You won't walk in the ring on a clients horse because you don't have the BALLS to pull it off.

For the record, I don't have to ride my clients horses to show, I maintain two of my own. So let me ask you, do you show at all, on something you own? Or are you the snarly trainer in the golf-cart preaching antiquated technique to rough handed teens, on hot, unorthodox, almost frightening jumpers.


Listen 1st DoWeCheatThemAndHow is not in the show ring. It is about trainers nickel and dimming clients to death.

Its about trainers no longer training their students to really ride, to solve problems before they start. When things start to fall apart pick up the pieces and get to the jump properly. Where is the real training?

2nd: seriously you think i am talking about people who have physical problems? get a grip.

3rd: I am a wonderful rider, my trainer never rode my green horses at a show, well actually once he did BUT NOT IN IT!!! He just hopped on him to SHOW ME what i was doing wrong and how i needed to fix it.

magnolia73
Jun. 3, 2011, 08:47 AM
It is about trainers nickel and dimming clients to death.



No, it's not. We all know what our trainers charge. In my case it costs the same whether my butt is in the tack or her butt is in the tack. Obviously I find VALUE in having her ride my horse. Obviously people find VALUE in their horse being ridden by a pro.

People doing hunters on the A circuit are competitive and paying a high price to be there. They pay for every edge they can get so they can compete. It's not really about learning for everyone- but about being competitive, whether its a desire to win ribbons, add value to a horse with a strong competitive record or quickly advance through the levels. These people are not generally ignorant and obviously find value in the services their trainer renders.

mvp
Jun. 3, 2011, 11:21 AM
my trainer shows my horse in the adaquans all the time. it looks good to have that on the show record. i just show in the childrens but that doesnt mean my horse maxes out at that level. i believe its completly fine!

Just an aside. When I saw the name of a drug put ahead of a division, I thought "Oh, my. I hope I never need to explain to my non-horsey friends what Adequan is and why it's manufacturer would sponsor my little hobby sport." I thought it would be funny if people called these divisions the Adequan Hunters. But I never thought it would happen!

doublesstable
Jun. 3, 2011, 11:23 AM
Listen 1st DoWeCheatThemAndHow is not in the show ring. It is about trainers nickel and dimming clients to death.

Its about trainers no longer training their students to really ride, to solve problems before they start. When things start to fall apart pick up the pieces and get to the jump properly. Where is the real training?

2nd: seriously you think i am talking about people who have physical problems? get a grip.

3rd: I am a wonderful rider, my trainer never rode my green horses at a show, well actually once he did BUT NOT IN IT!!! He just hopped on him to SHOW ME what i was doing wrong and how i needed to fix it.


Your are just talking about "bad" trainers and they are out there just like there are "bad" clients.... "bad" horses etc....

Even if a trainer doesn't swing a leg over a clients horse I have seen some that "don't" teach their student how to solve a problem regardless... (period)

Good trainers, yes, they can charge for their services and as a client, I know my rates before going in...

If you are such a wonderful rider, you should approach those students that are getting ripped off by the trainer for riding their horses and not helping them solve the problems and teach them yourself. It would be interesting because I'd like to bet each student is different and that one way of teaching isn't going to cut it.... you just "may" have to hop on their horse and school it around the course if the horse is unreasonable that day...

keepthelegend
Jun. 3, 2011, 11:55 AM
I think every single horse benefits from a professional ride. If you can afford to have your trainer tune your horse up in some warm up classes do it. If you have a green horse, let the trainer do the green division for sure!

wanderlust
Jun. 3, 2011, 12:40 PM
3rd: I am a wonderful rider, my trainer never rode my green horses at a show, well actually once he did BUT NOT IN IT!!! He just hopped on him to SHOW ME what i was doing wrong and how i needed to fix it. Another legend in their own mind.

Look up "Anna Ways" or "jumpersonlyphillips" on youtube. My personal favorite is the dog is chasing it over the way-too-big jump.

MyssMyst
Jun. 3, 2011, 12:43 PM
One of the worst accidents I've ever heard of was at a show my friend was attending. It was windy, and a rider had a very green horse. The trainer offered to warm the horse up to get the spooks out, and the rider refused, claiming she needed to deal with it herself. She took the horse into the warm up arena, the horse spooked and took off. The rider panicked, dropped the reins and started screaming. The horse was in a full-blown panic by this point, and hit the rail of the warmup arena, flipped up and over the rail onto a concrete walkway. The woman needed several surgeries to correct the damage done by having the horse land on top of her. If she'd been humble enough to trust her trainer's judgement, this would not have happened. This is an extreme example, but pride can be deadly in the horse world. Trusting our trainers is sometimes just the right thing to do.

So much for me wandering away from this thread...

fordtraktor
Jun. 3, 2011, 01:05 PM
... It is about trainers nickel and dimming clients to death.

....

I am glad I don't have a trainer dimming me to death, sounds painful. How does one go about that...does the trainer sneak back and flip the light switch in the Coliseum during their trip? Gives a new meaning to trainers keeping their students in the dark!

Halfhalting
Jun. 3, 2011, 01:23 PM
I honestly consider every dollar I spend and ration out my funds for my horse. Anyway, I've had my new mare for 4 months and you know what, she's spooky and not confident. But very kind. So this very sweet, yet flaky mare just went to her first horse show (since she was a yearling 6 years ago) this past weekend. My butt paid to have my trainer's butt in the saddle for the entire show. Does he normally ride her? NO, only twice before actually. BUT, I have a young family, a spooky green mare, and I don't want to die. I was more than happy to let my trainer handle her show nerves for the first time and I was more than happy for him to teach her that show jumps are not going to eat her alive.

And you know what, she had a fantastic experience. I never had to lunge her, never had to take her nervousness personally, and I just sat back and let a stronger rider teach her her job in the new scary environment. It was worth every penny. Next show is on me to ride, but I was so glad to have a patient, effective trainer to take his time and support my horse through her first hunter show experience. I'm sure all the other riders in the schooling ring were also.

BLBGP
Jun. 3, 2011, 01:40 PM
This thread is so odd. I learn something every time I see my trainer on my horse.

Where are you riding where you see these trainers deliberately holding their students back? You sound very unhappy where you are. Perhaps it's time to move to a location where there are more trainers that inspire their students?

doublesstable
Jun. 3, 2011, 03:23 PM
Another legend in their own mind.

Look up "Anna Ways" or "jumpersonlyphillips" on youtube. My personal favorite is the dog is chasing it over the way-too-big jump.

Are "these" videos the OP????? :eek:

allintexas
Jun. 3, 2011, 03:50 PM
Why shouldn't they? That's part of their job. Ideally, the more experienced the horse is, the less pro rides it will get

hasahorse
Jun. 3, 2011, 05:13 PM
OK, I had to go watch the videos. Wow. That is all I can say. Whoever said "legend in their own mind" was correct. The dog chasing the horse is fantastic.

If my trainer is not going to ride my horse why should I work with her? I work very hard during the week to carve out enough time to ride in the evenings and the weekends. You better believe that my horse is getting at least one training ride a week to compensate for everything I do to him. He's older and deserves to have at least one ride each week where someone is giving him the correct cues at the correct time. I too am friends with Mr. Wheresthatleadchange, Mr. Longspot, and Mr. Whenyougetyouracttogetherwe'lltrythatagain. At some point in my riding career, I hope to be a passable rider instead of the marginal rider that I am now.

ynl063w
Jun. 3, 2011, 06:44 PM
To answer the OP's question: Should Trainers ride their students horses in shows?

If the student in question wants the trainer to ride the horse in shows, then yes, the trainer should ride the horse in shows.

If the student in question does not want the trainer to ride the horse in shows, then no, the trainer should not ride the horse in shows.

See how easy life can be if you don't go out of your way to make things difficult?

wanderlust
Jun. 3, 2011, 07:01 PM
Are "these" videos the OP????? :eek: It would appear so. Amazing what a little COTH sleuthing can turn up, eh?

LochNessD
Jun. 3, 2011, 07:20 PM
Oh god, if those videos are indeed the OP then she's from my neck of the woods.

I mean, I knew this area was kind of an armpit for the h/j world, but geez... :lol:

doublesstable
Jun. 3, 2011, 07:58 PM
It would appear so. Amazing what a little COTH sleuthing can turn up, eh?


Yeah - eh is about it! Not that I was invited to do so but this is COTH after all and once this was posted -


When things start to fall apart pick up the pieces and get to the jump properly. Where is the real training?

3rd: I am a wonderful rider, my trainer never rode my green horses at a show, well actually once he did BUT NOT IN IT!!! He just hopped on him to SHOW ME what i was doing wrong and how i needed to fix it.

I think it's an invetation - the rider in those videos does not get to the jump properly and I think kind of far from wonderful riding..... The horse is galoping all over, long spot after long spot.... leaning into the turns and tripping.... This is a horse that could seriously use a few pro rides....

I am not trying to be hurtful OP - it just surprises me that these are videos used for a sale horse... that horse looks sweet as pie considering he is left to his own resourses to make it over those jumps.

findeight
Jun. 4, 2011, 11:17 AM
Don't you all think the horse in that video would benefit from a Pro ride...???? One that could get out of the saddle over the fence, not open up too quick and hit the tack landing with a corresponding wrench of the mouth?

Maybe even a Pro rider that did not need to crank the head down with an uber tight running martingale to compensate for landing too heavy in the tack and stiffing the mouth?

Summit Springs Farm
Jun. 4, 2011, 01:46 PM
This thread seems to go hand in hand with having to do your own grooming at home or shows.
We do most of the training/riding at home with my horses, we currently have 3 and a half in training, the half is our new colt born this year, he is learning all kinds of things;) to get ready for his hunter breeding next year.
The other 3 are, second year pregreen, the next is baby green/pregreen and the last is baby,baby green.
So at the shows they are ridden by a pro in those divisions, we occationally will ride them in the baby adults
.
We are looking forward to doing more riding at shows when the horses are ready to do the 3 foot adults then the 3'3" adults
.
yea I miss riding my last horse in the adults, but as soon as we did he was sold to a kid who now is having fun on him. This year I'm keeping one for me;)!!

And no we don't do our own grooming at the shows! Yes at home, but sometimes we have help there too.

Oh and frankly, we've done plenty of grooming through the years and we still don't know everything.

Don't be too hard on those who don't groom, cause, as I said even those of us that have done it for years have plenty to learn every day.

remyman55
Jun. 5, 2011, 07:08 PM
Just an aside. When I saw the name of a drug put ahead of a division, I thought "Oh, my. I hope I never need to explain to my non-horsey friends what Adequan is and why it's manufacturer would sponsor my little hobby sport." I thought it would be funny if people called these divisions the Adequan Hunters. But I never thought it would happen!

adaquans is the name given to the 3'5 hunter divison sponsored by m&s.....