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ptownevt
May. 30, 2011, 12:24 PM
Why such strong sentiment against TBs for dressage? I've actually been told that TBs "can't" do dressage above a very low level, Tr or First. I'm not sure I follow that. It seems it must be a "fashion" issue. I know that in any breed there are horses with better and worse conformation for dressage, but to write off an entire breed? Especially a breed that was created to be an athlete? Looking at old dressage photos I see quite a few TBs. They can't have been that bad.

GingerJumper
May. 30, 2011, 12:28 PM
Poor critters, so many people are biased... my OTTB could easily go through 4th level with his movement and mind, however he's a jumping addict with talent so we're going that route. Have they never heard of Keen or Glitter Please? Ugh, some people.

serendipityhunter
May. 30, 2011, 12:40 PM
I don't think everyone thinks that, I just think for the most part you are going to have to look harder for a TB that has bigger movement with suspension, but they are out there. My TB definitely doesn't have that type of movement but I didn't buy him to be a dressage horse, so he is one of those that I would be lucky to get to training/first level and he wouldn't stack up against the big moving warmbloods. I think the other factor is that the TBs can be more sensitive and challenging to ride, so a lot of amateurs with money will go to the big moving warmblood that willl take a joke, it is the same thing in the hunter ring now.

STA
May. 30, 2011, 12:59 PM
He competed quite some time ago, but wasn't Hilda Gurney's Keen a TB or at least part TB? He was very competitive, perhaps the trainer had something to do with his success?

TemJeito
May. 30, 2011, 12:59 PM
If you think they're wrong, why not prove them wrong ;)?

I'm the owner of a young thoroughbred and find it a total waste of my time to worry about what other people think :D

2tempe
May. 30, 2011, 07:42 PM
Yes, Keen was a TB, or at least part.

More recently I bought a 15 yr old TB who had shown thru PSG, had a piaffe and beginnings of passage. He was a lead change MACHINE. I was doing training level at the time. Threw him in a snaffle and off we went; he was quite competitive for me all the way through 4th level and only a bit less competitive at PSG. The problem there was that he is long in the body and I was unable to get him collected enough to get much beyond 60. He is now 21, and has stepped back down to take care of another rider who is leasing him. I chose not to push the collection issue out of respect for him, though w/ work and more strength from me, it could have been there. I wouldn't have traded him for anything.

Petstorejunkie
May. 30, 2011, 09:57 PM
Why such strong sentiment against TBs for dressage? Laughably so, it tends to come out the mouths of someone holding a high 5 figure warmblood with TB lines on top and bottom.

There are only 2 breeds I'd consider for an upper level horse
1. TB
2. Andalusian

the brain is the most important aspect of a dressage horse imho. I click with both the above breeds cerebrally. I can help a horse overcome an upright shoulder, I can't fix stupid.

paulaedwina
May. 30, 2011, 10:03 PM
I think it's professional jealousy. I think for some folks who spend 10s of thousands on warmbloods they'd be damned if you are going to accomplish great things with some hundred dollar OTTB for example.

Smile politely and kick their asses in the ring.
Paula

canyonoak
May. 30, 2011, 10:11 PM
Hilda Gurney's legendary partner Keen was a FULL TB ( Money Broker - Mabel Victory ); in fact an unraced OTTB that was just too big for California's little half-mile tracks and tight turns.
There are big, elastic fabbo TBs out there still--but they are hard to find, even harder to buy (as they are in demand) and require talented trainers to develop them (I do not think many others besides Hilda could have developed Keen ).

In Germany, one of the top dressage sires stands at the Hanoverian Verband , his name is Lauries Crusador and he is an OTTB. He produced multiple GP winners out of his first year at stud and has gone on to produce more.
Of course, Europeans have been breeding 'blood on top' forever--but the foundation are those solid-as-a-rock, leg in each corner broodmares,LOL.

paulaedwina
May. 30, 2011, 10:27 PM
Yup. A $1000 TB in fact http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2009/11/17/keen-xx-pioneer-american-dressage

Paula

Petstorejunkie
May. 30, 2011, 10:32 PM
a TB in levade (http://www.paulbelasik.com/images/aLevade_ef.jpg)

TKR
May. 30, 2011, 11:10 PM
I'm a Thoroughbred person through and through and certainly believe they are quite capable of performing well and going up the levels in dressage. However, I don't like to bash other breeds or registries or those who like them. I know that big movers and suspension has become the accepted "type" for dressage, however, I have yet to see a dressage test that gives a score for that. If a horse and rider have a good partnership and enjoy dressage and they are capable, that will go a long way. I know for me, a horse needs to think and ride like a Thoroughbred for me to really enjoy it. But that is a personal preference, to each his/her own!
PennyG

TickleFight
May. 30, 2011, 11:44 PM
Certainly there are thoroughbreds that are capable of continuing beyond 1st level. Before moving away for college I had a mare that I trained and competed through 3rd, and she was particularly talented at the piaffe. However, thoroughbreds do tend to be sensitive, and finding one with the right build, movement, and attitude for dressage can take some time. It is simply easier to find a horse able to move up to the intermediate levels in the warmblood category, and I think most people who can afford it simply choose to stack the odds in their favor and purchase a horse that is more of a sure thing.

Peggy
May. 31, 2011, 12:15 AM
I showed Cool (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30546901&l=ecd5951427&id=1052681066) (registered name - General Putnam) thru 4th level, earning a USDF bronze medal in the process and winning a then-AHSA zone X championship on him at first level. Did a lot of it trailering out of a backyard barn to shows with at-best weekly lessons. This was on 15-20 years ago and I'm not sure how easy it would be now.

He was short-coupled, uphill, light in the bridle, smart and largely found the work easy. This was a good thing as he didn't have the finest work ethic in the universe. Great canter and walk, OK trot. It also helped that it was fairly easy to ride an accurate test on him.

meupatdoes
May. 31, 2011, 03:31 AM
Certainly there are thoroughbreds that are capable of continuing beyond 1st level.

Haha, by this you mean 99.9% of them? :lol::lol:

Most TBs are limited by their riders, not by being TBs. There are a lot of nice warmbloods that will never get ridden past First Level either, and it's not because the *horse* isn't capable...

staceyk
May. 31, 2011, 06:54 AM
Hi,

I own a vintage 1987 thoroughbred, big bodied, big moving in his younger days. People asssumed he was a warmblood. In 2006 I saved my pennies for a full Hanoverian, and many, many people assume he is a thoroughbred! The modern warmbloods are pretty light, and that comes from ye old TB blood.

I LOVE thoroughbreds but IMHO the ones that will make *competitive* upper level dressage prospects are not as easy to find. These days TBs tend to have more downhill conformation and not so much freedom in the shoulder. There are many exceptions to this statement, and as so many people have pointed out, they are the border collies of the horse world and if they want to please you there isn't much they won't do.

My TB was totally tuned in when I rode him. Imagine my rude awakening when I first started riding my Hano. He's a luv and mildly inclined to please, but he doesn't listen very hard and if the signals are mixed he pretty much shuts down. Still fun to ride, but a different challenge. My TB is my heart horse.

manentail
May. 31, 2011, 07:36 AM
I have a young TB that I started dressage about a year ago and I have been loving her more than I thought I would. After we got past the 'I want to do extended trot all the time' issue she is a wonderful and smart ride. She is one of those TB's that are built like a tank. She was lucky we found her, she was a rescue.
I love the fact that she is light on the aids without much effort, I'm never tired after I ride like with my American warmblood, and she is always supple. Also love that she is not afraid of anything.

pluvinel
May. 31, 2011, 08:11 AM
Why such strong sentiment against TBs for dressage? I've actually been told that TBs "can't" do dressage above a very low level, Tr or First. I'm not sure I follow that. It seems it must be a "fashion" issue. I know that in any breed there are horses with better and worse conformation for dressage, but to write off an entire breed? Especially a breed that was created to be an athlete? Looking at old dressage photos I see quite a few TBs. They can't have been that bad.
Perhaps showing them pedigrees might serve education. Here are top TB's in WB registires:

Laurie's Crusader (Hano)
Cottage Son (Holsteiner)
Pik As (Hano) foundation of all "Pik line....Pik Bube...etc)
Furioso (Hano)
Ladykiller (Holst)

Those are just off the top of my head.....there are others. A friend imported a stallion prospect (now a licensed Hano stallion) who was 1/2 TB at the 4th generation.

TheHorseProblem
May. 31, 2011, 09:30 AM
Yes, the Germans use TB's to improve their warmbloods.

Here are some pictures of my dressage TB with my trainer aboard. He's the best horse I have ever owned, and if I had the cash to pay for his training, he would go all the way.

https://picasaweb.google.com/stefmix/NINABRIDLEPHOTOS#5604606575434831714

I should start a spin off thread: show me your dressage TB!

netg
May. 31, 2011, 10:47 AM
Haha, by this you mean 99.9% of them? :lol::lol:

Most TBs are limited by their riders, not by being TBs. There are a lot of nice warmbloods that will never get ridden past First Level either, and it's not because the *horse* isn't capable...

I completely agree. At this point there are more warmbloods in dressage, at least at rated shows, and therefore more will have success. Plus when you're intentionally breeding for the desired traits (which happens with TBs, too) you are more likely to get the desired traits. But for the lowest levels, pretty much every TB I have known could do them! (I have known of some who couldn't, though.)

I especially prefer distance-bred TBs, and often those who are turf bred which I think is more regarding bloodlines than turf vs. dirt, as good horses seem to be capable of crossing over.

If you think about it - a TB is supposed to be able to sit on its haunches and push forward to leave the starting gate, and carry itself for the length of a race. The horse has to be able to react quickly to stimulus, and be able to move laterally well enough to maneuver in a tight racing situation. A racehorse also have to have a lot of freedom of shoulder to reach forward at the gallop. Now, a racehorse doesn't need to have suspension or the kind of softness through its body you want in a dressage horse - but the correct riding and conditioning helps develop that some, too. So race breeding may not result in the lofty gaits you need for high movement scores, but they certainly should result in the traits you need to do decently well. My next horse may be a warmblood out of looking for that bred-in suspension, but my current OTTB certainly has plenty of it, too.

My OTTB before he started learning to really use his back end and before I learned to move with him at a canter:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4618112672_ee2c0ea7a4.jpg

And as he was starting to learn to push forward (not me riding):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5010/5252148367_645f355105.jpg

Maybe not an international dressage horse, but he naturally tends to do a lot of the upper level movements on his own for fun. And is most definitely limited by his rider! :)



Perhaps showing them pedigrees might serve education. Here are top TB's in WB registires:

Laurie's Crusader (Hano)
Cottage Son (Holsteiner)
Pik As (Hano) foundation of all "Pik line....Pik Bube...etc)
Furioso (Hano)
Ladykiller (Holst)

Those are just off the top of my head.....there are others. A friend imported a stallion prospect (now a licensed Hano stallion) who was 1/2 TB at the 4th generation.

Thanks for that! I know I tend to love the Pik lines and actually had identified that as the line I seem to most commonly love. I didn't know that the TB was part of why. :)


Yes, the Germans use TB's to improve their warmbloods.

Here are some pictures of my dressage TB with my trainer aboard. He's the best horse I have ever owned, and if I had the cash to pay for his training, he would go all the way.

https://picasaweb.google.com/stefmix/NINABRIDLEPHOTOS#5604606575434831714

I should start a spin off thread: show me your dressage TB!

Nina's lovely! Care to share her breeding?

vineyridge
May. 31, 2011, 10:57 AM
The kind of movement that is valued in dressage is very inefficient. TBs have been bred for flat movement for centuries, and current dressage scoring gives bonuses to pure inbred movement style over training and accuracy.

2tempe
May. 31, 2011, 11:00 AM
One of the things we all tend to forget in these types of discussions is that there are dressage horses and then dressage horses. The first group are those we all lust over as they show at WEG, Pan Am Games and the big CDI's. The second group are those that most of us amateurs can realistically buy.
When my old TB needed to back down a bit and I shopped, I went w/ a completely open mind on breed but very specific training and attitude requirements. One of the top prospects was 1/2 TB; sadly he did not vet...IMO there are many breeds that can do as much as most amateurs will aspire to- most of what they need is a brain, and then rideable gaits.
If a horse gets a 6 on gaits instead of an 8, its not going to have much impact; way more important to have a smooth, harmonious test a decent riding. Look at the emphasis that has been built into rider measurements. I've seen big fancy expensive warmbloods getting scores in the mid 50's because they are hard for their ammy owner to package and sit.

SisterToSoreFoot
May. 31, 2011, 11:12 AM
My TB (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/shamus+fancy)was a lovely mover and certainly capable of whatever level a rider could train him to. Uphill, high set neck, and extreme athleticism. He was also French turf/steeplechase bred on his dam side and had known US sport lines (Irish Castle/Bold Ruler) on his sire side.

I have heard it said--not sure where--that the reason TB's aren't as successful in dressage is only in part because of breed bias/ability. Instead, the german dressage training system--which influences much of modern dressage--is geared towards warmbloods' mentality/abilities, and TBs have different training needs, both physically (to develop brilliance out of natively athletic movement) and mentally (to work with the TBs mental intensity).

I don't remember where I heard/read that, but it makes sense to me. TBs are all generally athletic, but most are efficient, not extravagant, movers. But they are athletic, so fanciness can be trained in. As for their minds, I found my TB to be intense, but somewhat given to anticipating what I wanted and less interested/motivated by the finer points of dressage. He was a take-charge type and liked movements that let him show off (extended trot). He was bold, brave, and independent, but those qualities were hard to translate into strengths in the dressage ring. Playing with training approaches helped.

I find my new horse, a 1/2 TB to be much easier. He likes direction and doesn't see the need to assert his opinions into the work. However, I credit his turf-bred TB side with his eagerness to show off his learning and his determined focus.

TickleFight
May. 31, 2011, 11:26 AM
One of the things we all tend to forget in these types of discussions is that there are dressage horses and then dressage horses. The first group are those we all lust over as they show at WEG, Pan Am Games and the big CDI's. The second group are those that most of us amateurs can realistically buy.

I agree. A big factor when choosing a horse should be the goals of the rider: some simply want to learn and ride at home, some show for their own edification, and others want to compete. We have all seen talented horses ridden by amateurs not yet up to the task, and there are plenty of horses that can do the movements correctly but will never be really competitive at an intermediate or advanced level.

I don't think any breed of horse should be written off when looking for a prospect, and thoroughbreds definitely bring certain traits to the table, but if your goal is to be competitive at an intermediate or advanced level you will likely end up with a warmblood. Or, at least, you will have a much easier time finding one suited to your purpose.

TheHorseProblem
May. 31, 2011, 11:39 AM
Nina's lovely! Care to share her breeding?

Nina is the trainer. :)

Surlyn is my horse's name. You can look up his pedigree. He's a Slew on top, Sharpen Up on bottom.

TheHorseProblem
May. 31, 2011, 11:41 AM
My OTTB before he started learning to really use his back end and before I learned to move with him at a canter:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4618112672_ee2c0ea7a4.jpg

And as he was starting to learn to push forward (not me riding):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5010/5252148367_645f355105.jpg

Maybe not an international dressage horse, but he naturally tends to do a lot of the upper level movements on his own for fun. And is most definitely limited by his rider! :)



Like!:yes::yes::yes:

netg
May. 31, 2011, 11:52 AM
Nina is the trainer. :)

Surlyn is my horse's name. You can look up his pedigree. He's a Slew on top, Sharpen Up on bottom.

That's what I get for making assumptions. ;)

I'm sure your trainer is lovely, too - I was just too busy looking at your horse to notice!

vineyridge
May. 31, 2011, 12:04 PM
I've been doing some research into TB lines that have done well in dressage. Most of the horses that I've looked at have been in Europe, so tend to have European turf breeding. A couple of the lines that seem to show up frequently are Tudor Minstrel and Aureole. I guess that means Hyperion. :) Which means Bay Ronald, but we won't go there.

Another one is Mieuxce; yet another is Court Martial; and Belfalas and Julio Mariner are in quite few KWPN horses--both are by Blakeney.

In German horses, the best lines are Neckar/Ticino.

Lest we forget, Sandro Hit's Great grandfather was Sacramento Song; Prince Thatch xx was the Lauries Crusador of his time; and Bolero was 3/4 TB.

As far as I know, the last full TB to be a world class dressage horse was Arak:
http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=1548919&registry=T&horse_name==Arak&dam_name==Adele&foaling_year=1982&nicking_stats_indicator=Y
who was ridden in the World Cup Final in 1997 by Monica Theodorescu and finished 6th.

netg
May. 31, 2011, 12:22 PM
(Psst, Viney, you missed my pedigree thread on the eventing board... care to comment? http://www.pedigreequery.com/tucson+magic )

vineyridge
May. 31, 2011, 01:34 PM
Just thought I would add this: Katherine Poulin-Neff rode a homebred at the last Pan Am Games. His name is Brilliant Too, and he's got a TB dam. The dam was a Colorado Bred, from really regional TBs. Pedigree here: http://www.pedigreequery.com/blue+brigetta Sire was Blue Weasel.
I'd have said that her pedigree is very undistinguished especially as it relates to dressage. But one suspects that she must have shown Michael Poulin something that he thought made her worth breeding to a Dutch stallion for "pure" dressage. One would hope that he didn't view her as just a uterus for a dressage stallion.

Point of this is that good TBs can pop up anywhere from unpromising parents just because of the closed studbook.

Peggy
May. 31, 2011, 02:01 PM
<Crop>
If a horse gets a 6 on gaits instead of an 8, its not going to have much impact; way more important to have a smooth, harmonious test a decent riding. Look at the emphasis that has been built into rider measurements. I've seen big fancy expensive warmbloods getting scores in the mid 50's because they are hard for their ammy owner to package and sit.
The problem is that that 6 vs. 8 kills you on every movement that is gait-related. In other words, the better mover gets a higher score for the same level of performance of the movement. Or, so I've been told. This is why an amazing mover with some fairly large errors can outscore a more accurate and obedient test done by an OK mover.

2tempe
May. 31, 2011, 08:04 PM
The problem is that that 6 vs. 8 kills you on every movement that is gait-related. In other words, the better mover gets a higher score for the same level of performance of the movement. Or, so I've been told. This is why an amazing mover with some fairly large errors can outscore a more accurate and obedient test done by an OK mover.

I'm not totally in disagreement w/ your comments, assuming the rider can ride the particular amazing-mover horse. I've seen, however, very good movers that were too much whatever for their riders. They did not beat the accurate, obedient rides, because the rider couldn't fully develop and maintain the quality of the gait.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Jun. 1, 2011, 07:13 PM
Well, a nice, sound TB with the patience in the brain for dressage certainly CAN do great things with a talented rider, but in all fairness (and I have an OTTB), a lot of them are naturally tight in the back, don't particularly favor carrying behind (if they are race bred they are certainly not made for that) and/or can be pretty tense in the brain. Not to say that other breeds of horses don't have the same issues, but to say that TBs generally are upper level prospects would be an overstatement, IMHO.

mswillie
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:10 PM
From Henry Wynmalen's "Dressage A Study of the Finer Points of Riding" 1974 edition pg. 279

After spending a couple pages describing the horse for dressage, Mr. Wynmalen wrote: "The best type for dressage is undoubtedly the thorough-bred type of riding horse with show hack characteristics but not necessarily of show hack size... Depending upon the size of the rider a height of from 15h. 2" to 16h. 1" appears about ideal.

And on page 281: "Generally it is again in the really well-bred horse, thorough-bred or nearly so, or Anglo-Arab, that the desirable temperament can best be found.

I just found this to be interesting in the context of this discussion. I think the book was originally published in 1953 so it wasn't all that terribly long ago (~60 years) that a smaller thoroughbred type horse was considered a good dressage candidate. :)

vineyridge
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:16 PM
Chamberlin says the same thing. But you have to remember that in 1937 or 1957, the Germans were just beginning to get into sport horse breeding big time. Purpose breeding for dressage was a very, very new thing. Where there weren't purpose bred horses, riders just looked for the best available, which were TB type Show/Park Hacks.

Kaelurus
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:38 PM
I have an awesome unraced TB. If I had continued his (and my) training instead of going to vet school, I have no doubt he would make it to the FEI levels. Unfortunately, I don't have the cash for both.

He certainly has the movement, along with all of the sensitivity and brains of a TB. He's my horse of a lifetime, at the exact wrong moment of my life.

This is us about a year and a half ago, showing (an winning) at 1st level:
http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=3630697023/PictureID=128734050023/a=154511871_154511871/

And this him a couple of months ago, after having most of my freshman year of vet school off due to my schedule:
http://youtu.be/5DNzcG1sxnI

vineyridge
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:42 PM
Pedigree, please. He's grist for my "research."


I have an awesome unraced TB. If I had continued his (and my) training instead of going to vet school, I have no doubt he would make it to the FEI levels. Unfortunately, I don't have the cash for both.

He certainly has the movement, along with all of the sensitivity and brains of a TB. He's my horse of a lifetime, at the exact wrong moment of my life.

This is us about a year and a half ago, showing (an winning) at 1st level:
http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=3630697023/PictureID=128734050023/a=154511871_154511871/

And this him a couple of months ago, after having most of my freshman year of vet school off due to my schedule:
http://youtu.be/5DNzcG1sxnI

Kaelurus
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:53 PM
Pedigree, please. He's grist for my "research."

Here ya go:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/capitol+hill7

ETA: I'd love to know what you think, Viney. Your "research" is really interesting, and I'm always trying to soak up pedigree knowledge.

pluvinel
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:08 PM
Here ya go:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/capitol+hill7

ETA: I'd love to know what you think, Viney. Your "research" is really interesting, and I'm always trying to soak up pedigree knowledge.
Hmmm....a Mr Prospector....I'm a fan of those....

Saw a horse I admired at a dressage clinic. Went to rider and asked about the horse. Rider said, "TB".....I asked if he was by Mr. Prospector.....yup!!!! You can pick them out....quite distinguished and quite suitable for dressage.

TKR
Jun. 2, 2011, 08:54 AM
My (retired) gelding did well when I was competing in dressage. Showed to 2nd. He had alot of suspension, even noticed by wb fans. I got busy with family matters so we didn't progress and only showed once at 2nd. He is 18 now with a heart murmur and leaky valve, but doing great and beautiful. He also did demo rides at the horse fair and for some Scottish Games and babysat a Dutch gelding having a meltdown during his demo at the horse fair. I bred him, he never raced. Super sensible.
Here is his pedigree http://www.pedigreequery.com/my+sneak+preview.
His dam produced several that did well in dressage -- she had an amazing walk, like a panther. His sire was a SW that I adored - super type and temperment.
PennyG

millerra
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:33 AM
Hmmm....a Mr Prospector....I'm a fan of those....

Saw a horse I admired at a dressage clinic. Went to rider and asked about the horse. Rider said, "TB".....I asked if he was by Mr. Prospector.....yup!!!! You can pick them out....quite distinguished and quite suitable for dressage.

Hmmm. I have a Mr Prospector on the top w/ the Explodent line on the bottom. Dressage = not. Must be the bottom line.

Actually, he had suspension and athleticism, but he was like riding a bouncing steel ball - tense, tense, tense. And hot in the mind - sensitive, forward and (the worst) quick to get mad. As more than one clinician put it - no sense of humor. He should have been a steeplechase horse, at the very least a long format horse...

Actually the TB that "everyone" loved for dressage (I'm an eventer) was Northern Dancer (Alywush) (sp?) on the top and Sir Ivor/Gaylord on the bottom. He had such elasticity that I could "fake it" a bit in the dressage arena and always score much better than the first horse. Alas, both are retired now...

Leprechaun
Jun. 2, 2011, 05:03 PM
Just take a look at the dressage tests of Becky Holder's event horse, Courageous Comet. A full TB and jaw dropping mover.

TheHorseProblem
Jun. 2, 2011, 08:35 PM
Just take a look at the dressage tests of Becky Holder's event horse, Courageous Comet. A full TB and jaw dropping mover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsGQzS1ToZE&feature=related

My jaw has dropped!

paulaedwina
Jun. 2, 2011, 09:41 PM
This guy, Love on a Wire, is on CanterPA. He may be built right for it. It's really hard to tell when he's racing fit. Personally I think they're asking way too much - capitalizing on the flash.

http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3906:love-on-a-wire&catid=58:pa-trainer-listings

Paula

pluvinel
Jun. 4, 2011, 10:39 AM
Hmmm. I have a Mr Prospector on the top w/ the Explodent line on the bottom. Dressage = not. Must be the bottom line.

Actually, he had suspension and athleticism, but he was like riding a bouncing steel ball - tense, tense, tense. And hot in the mind - sensitive, forward and (the worst) quick to get mad. As more than one clinician put it - no sense of humor. ...
...

Well, I have to say I'm partial to hot, sensitive, opinionated horses.

No sense of humor? Well, "humor" may be in the eyes of the beholder. Based on the few horses I've run across like that, my conclusion is that those horses don't tolerate rough or insensitive riding. They expect the rider to rise up and improve their horsemanship....eg., to have (or develop) equestrian tact. My stallion taught me a lot about being a quiet, sensitive rider.....learn/figure it out....or suffer the consequences and get bucked off.

I had to "correct" one clinician's approach as being too "warmbloody" eg., too rough......This clinician wanted to "make" the horse do something. I explained that the horse has a work ethic to end all, and is trying to please. If you don't recognize that, and continue to insist, the horse frets and stresses. Being a stallion, the next escalation was having a battle on your hands. Once I explained that all you have to do is make sure you're explaining yourself correctly, the clinician backed off, and took a few small steps to break down the exercise, the horse figured it out and did the work. I had worked with this trainer for a while, so I could do this.

That clinician now loves my horse and actually was marketing him to high-end (6-figure) clients because, "he does everything." Told him horse was not for sale.

There was a friend's mare that was also like that. That mare was sent off for training to a local "trainer". Was returned back to the owner as being "junk"....this was a mare from top Dutch lines...related to Totilas, if I recall pretty close generationally, 1st or 2nd back. This horse's reaction was to rear when pushed. Once a new rider was able to get her trust, the horse was trained to 2nd-3rd Level. Interestingly, every once in a while you could see her testing to see if she was really "free".....as in not being forced....just being "asked."

vineyridge
Jun. 4, 2011, 10:46 AM
Actually the "being asked without force" is characteristic of many of the best TB sport horse lines. You just can't train horses from those lines the same way you can other horses.

Some horses demand partners, not masters. The German School of Horsemanship is based on the concept of Masters.

Vesper Sparrow
Jun. 4, 2011, 11:38 AM
[QUOTE=pluvinel;5645431]I had to "correct" one clinician's approach as being too "warmbloody" eg., too rough......This clinician wanted to "make" the horse do something. I explained that the horse has a work ethic to end all, and is trying to please. If you don't recognize that, and continue to insist, the horse frets and stresses. Being a stallion, the next escalation was having a battle on your hands. QUOTE]

Had a similar experience in a clinic with my boy, an unraced TB. My boy is deceptively quiet and very tolerant, but only up to a point and, after that point, forget it! The clinician was running alongside us and manipulating the reins, as she had done for all the other horses in the clinic, and I could feel my boy get increasingly tense and about to blow. After I explained this, she was very good about bringing down the tension level.

MysticOakRanch
Jun. 4, 2011, 01:17 PM
Breed snobbery exists - but reality is, not all Warmbloods are good at dressage, and many "other" breeds have excellent representatives of their breeds that excel in dressage. Enjoy your horse and ignore remarks of prejudice. There are plenty of FEI Tbreds and Tbred crosses to look to as role models!

Oh, and as we look at the Tbred breeding role models, don't forget: Coconut Grove and Prince Thatch :D

Kaelurus
Jun. 4, 2011, 01:35 PM
No sense of humor? Well, "humor" may be in the eyes of the beholder. Based on the few horses I've run across like that, my conclusion is that those horses don't tolerate rough or insensitive riding. They expect the rider to rise up and improve their horsemanship....eg., to have (or develop) equestrian tact. My stallion taught me a lot about being a quiet, sensitive rider.....learn/figure it out....or suffer the consequences and get bucked off.

This is my horse, exactly. He'll give me everything he's got, as long as he knows I'm doing the same. If I don't hold up my end of the deal, he shuts down. He doesn't tolerate rough hands or a rough seat, and regularly reminds me when I'm not up to par. Thankfully, he's given up bucking, but now he just stops working and pretends he can't hear me.

He's made me work harder than any horse I've ever ridden, but he's also the most rewarding horse I've ever ridden.

millerra
Jun. 4, 2011, 02:16 PM
Well, I have to say I'm partial to hot, sensitive, opinionated horses.
my conclusion is that those horses don't tolerate rough or insensitive riding.

Thank you for the assessment. I will try not to be such a rough and insensitive rider...

I thought I had a pertinent comment as all I ride are TBs and I have a couple of different bloodlines. And I have shown dressage - to 3rd level, w/ TBs... ALL of my horses are on the hot and sensitive and opinionated side. I personally love being able to think about a transition and have it done.

However, this particular one is simply way over the top on hot, tense and reactive. He is retired and he will still pitch an absolute hissy fit in his stall if he sees his buddy load into the trailer. He's left hoof prints/dents on the stall wall. He will weave himself into a sweaty mess if something "isn't right" - as in left to the last for turnout and bring in. Or, when at a show, his shipping buddy had to go work. Even lunging, he bounced around as if on a pogo stick.

Oh well. FWIW - I wasn't trying to "dis" TBs - love 'em and love riding them... Just happen to own a Mr P. horse that is NOT into dressage. [run and jump, yes; dressage, no]

Carol Ames
Jun. 4, 2011, 02:25 PM
One of the most important principles I learned from Sally Swift was that of "let and allow":cool:

TickleFight
Jun. 4, 2011, 03:01 PM
However, this particular one is simply way over the top on hot, tense and reactive. He is retired and he will still pitch an absolute hissy fit in his stall if he sees his buddy load into the trailer. He's left hoof prints/dents on the stall wall. He will weave himself into a sweaty mess if something "isn't right" - as in left to the last for turnout and bring in. Or, when at a show, his shipping buddy had to go work. Even lunging, he bounced around as if on a pogo stick.

That is pretty much how my first thoroughbred was. She could weave like no horse I've seen before or since, and if she was really upset (like if I brought her in when the other horses were still outside) she would piaffe. She would piaffe in her stall, in the cross-ties... not fun. Luckily for me she was incredibly intelligent and could learn at the drop of a hat once she focused, otherwise I don't think we ever would have made it to 3rd level. I have never done so many half-halts in my life.

TKR
Jun. 4, 2011, 06:52 PM
As a smaller rider, short legs and limited physical strength, I LOVE Thoroughbreds, the more "uber"sensitive the better. Enjoy a bit electric, reactive or complicated as long as it's not dangerous or trying to be bad for the wrong reasons. I get along with those so much better and prefer them. Yes, thinking what you want and getting it is the reward for riding a Thoroughbred -- so many have that "put me in coach" attitude. Once I finish downsizing, all I will have left are my Thoroughbreds and a teacup Shetland pony.
PennyG

DutchDressageQueen
Jun. 4, 2011, 06:55 PM
way back in the warmbloods bloodlines, there is both TB and arabian blood...

Christa P
Jun. 4, 2011, 08:36 PM
way back in the warmbloods bloodlines, there is both TB and arabian blood...

Frequently not so far back. Actually it is very common for a WB to have TB in the first few generations.


This was my TB that would have been an incredible dressage horse is he hadn't been injured (accident at home - I never raced him). He was so naturally balanced and correct that I didn't even need to really train him, just show him what I wanted, let him know the cues and get out of his way.

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=1404580&registry=T&horse_name=Mist in Flight&dam_name=Lillie Darwin&foaling_year=1993&nicking_stats_indicator=Y

Christa

netg
Jun. 5, 2011, 12:38 AM
This was my TB that would have been an incredible dressage horse is he hadn't been injured (accident at home - I never raced him). He was so naturally balanced and correct that I didn't even need to really train him, just show him what I wanted, let him know the cues and get out of his way.


That would be my horse.

I frequently tell people he gives me delusions of grandeur. I don't know a lot about what I'm doing, yet as I work on things he just keeps giving me more. Working on collection, he doesn't respond well enough to a half halt so I correct... and he offers half steps. Working on spiraling in at the canter, and don't stop him from getting smaller - he gives passable beginning pirouettes. Crazy how much, if they get the basics of an idea, the good ones (I think likely not just TBs, even though I've only seen it in TBs) give you more when they can.

erfarrell
Jun. 5, 2011, 06:07 PM
I ride Thoroughbreds for a living, and I have to say, not all of them are cut out to be big, fancy upper level dressage horses.

That being said, some of the horses I come across are phenomenally built, well balanced, uphill, powerful, big movers, and could easily excel in dressage.

I think there is a combination of factors that lead to Thoroughbreds being a rarity at the upper levels.

1) As with any breed, not all Thoroughbreds have the build and movement for dressage. Being purpose bred for racing, I'd say its somewhat rare. Many of the warmbloods are purpose bred for dressage. That being the case, you are more likely to find a talented dressage prospect there. I assure you though, seek and you shall find. Talented TBs exist!

2) Tension. Thoroughbreds can be hot. No, they are not all hot. In my experience, most aren't. Still tension will slow you down in your dressage training. Many warmbloods (in my experience) are a bit quieter and more relaxed by nature.

3) Riders. The people who are dedicated to getting to the upper levels of dressage, seem to prefer to buy either something proven, or something purpose bred for dressage.

Jus my thoughts.

EqTrainer
Jun. 5, 2011, 10:07 PM
TBs are my horse, and ride, of choice. We have had so many truly good minded, excellent movers over the years that I am always a bit :confused: when people say they are hard to find.

I think a difference may be, that many TBs start off correct but not extravagant. They develop expressiveness with confidence and partnership. You have to know that when you see a great canter and walk, but a so-so trot, that its going to be ok :) buy the canter, and perhaps equally important, the * desire * to canter.

TBs can be more difficult at the lower levels because they tend to be forward and need to be balanced rather than pushed. What makes them tough in the beginning, makes them easy later. Later when you need a horse who will go forward and work hard for you, you've got it. They tend to dislike being unbalanced, it scares them, and builds tension. If you ride them like a less forward horse, and push, it freaks them out. Its almost always about learning to carry, the push is there from the beginning. Run them around trying to make them round and you will fry their brain.

To ride them well, you need to be able to let go. Tension building? Let go. Horse rushing? Let go. They tend to be claustrophobic. Let go. You cant hold them into a frame, you have to focus on their back lifting and softening and then shaping them.

I love the way they think. Energy in a young TB can scare people, you have to remember, they love to move. Tap into their love of movement and they will work so hard for you.

And arent they just beautiful?

TheHorseProblem
Jun. 5, 2011, 11:41 PM
EqTrainer, you just made me love my horse even more, if that is possible.:sadsmile:

netg
Jun. 6, 2011, 01:52 AM
EqTrainer, you just made me love my horse even more, if that is possible.:sadsmile:

Same here!

paulaedwina
Jun. 6, 2011, 07:33 AM
To ride them well, you need to be able to let go. Tension building? Let go. Horse rushing? Let go. They tend to be claustrophobic. Let go. You cant hold them into a frame, you have to focus on their back lifting and softening and then shaping them.

I love the way they think. Energy in a young TB can scare people, you have to remember, they love to move. Tap into their love of movement and they will work so hard for you.

I'm so going to have to put this in a document and save it.

Paula

piaffeprincess98
Jun. 6, 2011, 11:48 AM
The best thing my OTTB ever learned was stretching. I've also worked with a dressage trainer/judge who's worked with TB's and she had me push his trot and canter bigger to "push the tension out" which helps tremendously. It's my go-to move when I'm warming up at a show if he's tense. He has a wonderful walk and canter and his trot is awesome when his shoulders are free.

When he's relaxed in a test (and he's been getting better and better this year) he gets 8's and 9's on his movement. Without the tension, his shoulders free up and his movement improves. I think a lot of TBs lack the suspension that many WB's have, and it can be a disadvantage, but we've scored quite well as long as we're accurate and relaxed.

Mine is the first OTTB I've ever had and I've had him since he was 7 and a few months off the track, so I didn't do the initial breaking/basics. There's definitely a different kind of bond between him and I. He'll do anything for me and it's a wonderful feeling. He loves to learn when his tension doesn't get the best of him, which has been happening less and less as he matures. I think he could easily do fourth level. We're just schooling second right now and eventing at training level.

Alibhai's Alibar
Jun. 6, 2011, 12:57 PM
To ride them well, you need to be able to let go. Tension building? Let go. Horse rushing? Let go. They tend to be claustrophobic. Let go. You cant hold them into a frame, you have to focus on their back lifting and softening and then shaping them.

I love the way they think. Energy in a young TB can scare people, you have to remember, they love to move. Tap into their love of movement and they will work so hard for you.

I'm so going to have to put this in a document and save it.

Paula

Or maybe tattoo it on my arm to review while I'm riding :lol::lol::lol:

seeuatx
Jun. 6, 2011, 02:49 PM
TBs can be more difficult at the lower levels because they tend to be forward and need to be balanced rather than pushed. What makes them tough in the beginning, makes them easy later. Later when you need a horse who will go forward and work hard for you, you've got it. They tend to dislike being unbalanced, it scares them, and builds tension. If you ride them like a less forward horse, and push, it freaks them out. Its almost always about learning to carry, the push is there from the beginning. Run them around trying to make them round and you will fry their brain.

To ride them well, you need to be able to let go. Tension building? Let go. Horse rushing? Let go. They tend to be claustrophobic. Let go. You cant hold them into a frame, you have to focus on their back lifting and softening and then shaping them.


You've hit the nail right on the head. This is what I have had with all 3 of my TBs, all of whom were exracer, and I have the same now with my 7/8ish bred now. I have never needed to develop a work ethic in any of them, they have always wanted to work hard and well for you if they know how.

Part of the problem for some riders is that they do not know that it is not an issue of containing energy, but rather directing in the appropriate direction. I often hear people around this area say things like "TBs can be ok if you can contain them," and that drives me insane.

I had many issues with my hot and sensitive TB, who is my now retired guy, I had never ridden a horse that hot before. It was a bit of a learning curve for me to remember to ride forward and balanced even in moments of extreme hotness where I wanted to take my leg off and pull. It was a total breakthrough for me when I did a clinic with a GP rider who had worked with Dr. Klimke as a young man, and he had me ask in this order Balance and Forward, and then give the inside hand. That became his confidence and reward for the correct answer and once that horse KNEW what was being asked he became a much happier camper.

in_the_zone
Jun. 6, 2011, 04:15 PM
It's not because TBs CAN'T do it. They can and they have. I couple of my favorite horses on my top 10 list were TBs. But to play devil's advocate, here's a few reasons that TBs are not being pushed as dressage mounts:

Quality/quantity control. The ratio of quality to crap (saying this for lack of a better term) is wildly different between TBs and WBs. There are fewer WBs foals hitting the ground every year than TBs. For every TB that will make an FEI horse, there will be 10,000 that won't. For every WB, more like 1:100.

Type. WB breeders are breeding for dressage and TB breeders are breeding for racing.

Rider ability. Most people can't ride your typical race-bred TB. And I don't mean "crazy"; I mean sensitive and go-ey. For many riders, that is not "fun" and they will hang it up and swear off TBs forever and tell all their friends.

paulaedwina
Jun. 6, 2011, 04:23 PM
I like what you're saying.

1. Quality/quantity control
Please don't let that get out. As long as TBs aren't being bred for dressage then a good dressage horse is within my financial reach as long as I am willing to put in the time to wade through the horses that don't suit, and have the patience to wait for that TB that does suit. If you put the idea in people's heads about breeding TBs for dressage they'll add a zero to that price tag in a New York minute.

2. Rider ability.
I have to say that if I hadn't been regularly having my ass handed to me by my dressage trainer and her Trakhener (?) PSG schoolmaster I'd be right in that pack of people who can't ride your typical race-bred TB. And I'm not talking an inability to stay ahorse, but the absolute lack of specific skills for a forward, intelligent, athlete.

So let's keep this all under our hats please so I can find my dressage prince.

Paula:D

SanJacMonument
Jun. 6, 2011, 05:14 PM
I've seen some beautiful Tbred dressage horses but know many who won't use them for higher level work so much. They feel the natural build cannot as easily support balance lateral work as easily / willfully because they were so well bred for forward movement.

They are out there though, and Tbred crosses too. Good luck!

Old Fashioned
Jun. 7, 2011, 06:48 AM
There is a weird juxtaposition about how dressage people tend to feel about thoroughbreds. They will breed to TBs but don't want to ride TBs. I don't get it - quite frankly I wouldn't want to breed to anything I wouldn't want to ride... :winkgrin:

BoyleHeightsKid
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:49 AM
To ride them well, you need to be able to let go. Tension building? Let go. Horse rushing? Let go. They tend to be claustrophobic. Let go. You cant hold them into a frame, you have to focus on their back lifting and softening and then shaping them.

I love the way they think. Energy in a young TB can scare people, you have to remember, they love to move. Tap into their love of movement and they will work so hard for you.

I'm so going to have to put this in a document and save it.

Paula

Or better yet...make a sign and hang it in the barn! I love this! :D

EqTrainer
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:10 PM
Ya'll just don't forget to give credit, ok?!! :lol:

I've never been on a sign, or a tattoo, before...

ptownevt
Jun. 7, 2011, 03:29 PM
There is a weird juxtaposition about how dressage people tend to feel about thoroughbreds. They will breed to TBs but don't want to ride TBs. I don't get it - quite frankly I wouldn't want to breed to anything I wouldn't want to ride... :winkgrin:

Interesting observation.

paulaedwina
Jun. 7, 2011, 04:28 PM
Ya'll just don't forget to give credit, ok?!! :lol:

I've never been on a sign, or a tattoo, before...

Oh yes. I've pasted this to a document in my horse folder with the proper citation.

Paula

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jun. 7, 2011, 05:04 PM
There is a weird juxtaposition about how dressage people tend to feel about thoroughbreds. They will breed to TBs but don't want to ride TBs. I don't get it - quite frankly I wouldn't want to breed to anything I wouldn't want to ride... :winkgrin:

Well, I bred a Trakehner stallion TO my TB mare BECAUSE I loved riding her. I wanted MORE movement, that was all.

So, yeah, I hear you guys talking about these TBs you have and all but... I wanna SEE them! :lol: Pics please?

FlashGordon
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:18 PM
To ride them well, you need to be able to let go. Tension building? Let go. Horse rushing? Let go. They tend to be claustrophobic. Let go. You cant hold them into a frame, you have to focus on their back lifting and softening and then shaping them.

I love the way they think. Energy in a young TB can scare people, you have to remember, they love to move. Tap into their love of movement and they will work so hard for you.

And arent they just beautiful?

I saw this quoted later in the thread but author wasn't in the quote... I was sure it had to be you.... ;)

I grew up on QHs and fell in love with TBs in my late teens. It was like a whole new world opening up to me. I find they are so straightforward, honest, and have such a fantastic work ethic. Nothing better than a good TB.....

TheHorseProblem
Jun. 7, 2011, 10:54 PM
To ride them well, you need to be able to let go. Tension building? Let go. Horse rushing? Let go. They tend to be claustrophobic. Let go. You cant hold them into a frame, you have to focus on their back lifting and softening and then shaping them.

I love the way they think. Energy in a young TB can scare people, you have to remember, they love to move. Tap into their love of movement and they will work so hard for you.

And arent they just beautiful?

Today was my first ride since you posted this, and it was in my mind the whole time.:)

And the answer to your question is YES.:yes:

A.D.
Jun. 8, 2011, 10:40 AM
I love TBs - and I'm a dressage rider. Most of the horses I have ridden over the years have been TBs (and also a very talented Arab). One was trained (but didn't show much) to PSG. Another I was working with on basics (we showed up to what is now 2nd level), his owner took a hiatus from taking lessons on him because her coach told her she would need to get a WB to move up. She has recently decided to start taking lessons (he's now 18), and they are working on canter pirouettes and tempi changes. Turns out she needed a different coach, not a different horse.

I think part of the issue is that many people who see TBs as a poor choice for dressage aren't used to seeing nice TBs. The two I rode when I was younger were mistaken for WBs all the time. My current mare, to me looks very much
like a TB, just a solidly put together one. Most people assume she's a WB or at least a WB cross. I always enjoy telling them she's a TB.

I also agree that many OTTBs do not have a nice trot at first. My mare had an awesome canter and a great walk, the trot has improved SO much as she has straightened out, started lifting her back and learned to really push from behind.


Another part of the problem, as stated earlier, is many coaches do not teach on or ride TBs well. When trying out new coaches I had a few 'wasted' lessons when the coach wouldn't believe me that we needed to stop pushing an issue for a moment and just take a walk break. Once you push a TB too hard it's tough to get them back, and the secret to to know that you can't drill them in
the first place. I have an awesome coach now who really understands the TB mind - just in the process of finding a barn near her with pasture turnout year round (she needs it & is so much happier) so I can get weekly lessons.

paulaedwina
Jun. 8, 2011, 10:46 AM
My problem is that secretly (well not so secretly) I love draft horses. I'm coming to terms with draft build and PSG not being quite an easy fit so I'm looking at heavier type TBs, and more recently Appendix QHs. The problem is that my love of cinder blocks keeps showing through :lol:

Take for example the two on my watch list at the moment:

http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3939:fog-buster-fancy-163-gray-gelding-1500&catid=51:mountaineer-trainer-listings

http://www.horseclicks.com/horses/b3lttb/

Sigh.
Paula

arabiansrock
Jun. 8, 2011, 12:59 PM
that grey is georgeous!!!

paulaedwina
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:11 PM
You, my dear, are an enabler:no:. Sigh; I wasn't going to buy until next month, but I think I may have to break the piggy bank and go check him out this weekend:no:.

What concerns me here of course is that you can't test ride him (he's on the track). I'd have to look at his movements and take a leap.

Paula

pluvinel
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:30 PM
You, my dear, are an enabler:no:. Sigh; I wasn't going to buy until next month, but I think I may have to break the piggy bank and go check him out this weekend:no:.

What concerns me here of course is that you can't test ride him (he's on the track). I'd have to look at his movements and take a leap.

Paula

I have bought my horses before they were under saddle or even before they were of riding age (eg., weanlings or yearlings out of the field). What you want to look for are:
(1) Temperament
(2) Temperament
(3) Athletic ability

Temperament and work ethic will make up for a lot of shortcomings. Having a beautiful mover who is a devious SOB is beyond useless.

You want to start on the positive side of the number line, eg., buy an animal that has some god-given athletic ability. It is that ability that one shapes.

See if you can have the horse set free in a small paddock. Get it to move. See what gait it prefers. I like a "cantering horse"....eg., a horse, that when moved on, moves in the canter vs the trot. Or else look for a horse that is equal between trot and canter. Avoid any horse that only trots. Observe how the horse responds to requests for changes of direction and how it uses its body and balance.

paulaedwina
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:54 PM
So let me ask you about fog buster. He seems well put together, but he's an untested OTTB. I wasn't going to offer the asking price of $1500. I think maybe $800 +/- and do a $200 PPE?

Paula

Fourbeats
Jun. 8, 2011, 02:59 PM
I think I might offer a bit more than basically half the asking price. If a buyer approached me with that kind of offer I'd tell them to keep looking. A reasonable counter bid is acceptable, a huge cut isn't. Don't mention the cost of doing a PPE, that's not relevant to the purchase price.

First, before you even get to discussing money, at the other poster said, watch him move first. Spend some time with him and really try to get a feel for his temperament and movement. Then, you can talk money. Ask them what is the lowest cash offer they will take for him and go from there. For example, if they say $1300, offer $1100 and maybe you can settle on $1200.

paulaedwina
Jun. 8, 2011, 03:10 PM
Thank you for the advice. I wasn't trying to low ball on purpose. I guess I over-estimated their mark up. I won't discuss money until I am satisfied with his movement and temperament. I'll take my equitation trainer with me.

Paula

EqTrainer
Jun. 8, 2011, 06:59 PM
Fogbuster is owned by our own JessiP who is a good egg in every way. Call her and she will tell you all about the horse. No idea what she can offer in terms of trying him on the track, thats not normally how it works. Personally I would be looking at the Luftikus gelding if this one does not do it for you.

arabiansrock
Jun. 8, 2011, 07:21 PM
Paula
I am definitely an enabler when it comes to animals:D

Out here lots of hte tracks want you to use their vet for the ppe, so maybe call and see if you can set up a ppe appt for hte day you visit in case you like him, then take your trailer, and how much you are willing to spend in cash, and if you like him hold it out and say "will this work for you? If it does I can take him now".

My new boy

http://s771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/pmanza/?action=view&current=teddyprofile.jpg

was already off the track and undersaddle, but had been sitting in a field for several months. I tried him (they wanted 1500 for him) and I said how flexible are you, and they came back with "if you take him this weekend before we spend any more money on him for chiro and vet (he was scheduled for both), I will take 1000". I went home, talked to hubby, got clearance, and went back next day with trailer. I haven't regretted it, would have regretted it if I hadn't gone to see him, because he is so much fun, I am refinding my joy with horses. :winkgrin:

Good luck if you go!

paulaedwina
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:01 PM
Oh I like Teddy! Good for you. The only thing that gives me pause about FB is his freakin' color :D

Thanks for the endorsement of Jessi. I've spoken to her and she's acting as the agent for the seller. I am glad that you endorse her still because you never know what kind of seller you're dealing with (is the horse drugged, are they misrepresenting the horse's soundness, etc).

She has a seller looking at him tomorrow morning. She'll try to get me some video then. If that seller takes him then I'll move on. If not, and if the video looks good I'll make the 4 hr trip to Mountaineer.

No I won't take a trailer:lol:. It will be a Sunday and I'm sure I couldn't get a PPE done then.

Paula

SanJacMonument
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:20 PM
My money is on the gray Tbred. Good luck and hope he works out. Definitely get a vet check with good X-rays on both hoof and legs, well worth the $200 for piece of mind.

Carol Ames
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:55 PM
I took a tip from Klimke and started to recognize when/ which :yes: judges liked the type of horse I had and went out of my way:winkgrin: to show under them:cool:

paulaedwina
Jun. 9, 2011, 07:47 PM
A trainer referral just called today. She has 2 TBs she thinks might suit me. I'm going out to her farm on Saturday to see them.

They are both old fashioned, heavier boned TBs. One is longer than the other. #1 is a dark bay gelding, 7 years old, 16.3hh. He's a bit long she says. #2 is a dark bay gelding, 6 years old, 16.1 hh. She says he's shorter in the back.

I'll keep you updated.

Paula

TKR
Jun. 9, 2011, 07:54 PM
16.6H???? That would convert to 17.2!
PennyG

paulaedwina
Jun. 9, 2011, 07:57 PM
LOL. Sorry. That was meant to read 16.2. Not sure what happened there. I guess I was in a hurry.

Paula

betsyanne
Jun. 9, 2011, 08:15 PM
TB doing Dressage....never did I think that my firecracker of an OTTB mare would ever be quiet enough not to canter down the centerline, breathing fire....finally she is coming along :) She is not a big mover but we have fun and do our own thing. This is a clip during a Clinic and we were working on changes....she was an angel. Well, her Halo may have been held up by horns;)

One good thing is that her smaller trot does not bounce me around making me feel like bowl of jello.....see there are perks to this type...he he he


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zrIRoYP9Qo

paulaedwina
Jun. 9, 2011, 08:20 PM
I loved it. You were wonderful and she was beautiful :yes:

netg
Jun. 9, 2011, 08:24 PM
TB doing Dressage....never did I think that my firecracker of an OTTB mare would ever be quiet enough not to canter down the centerline, breathing fire....finally she is coming along :) She is not a big mover but we have fun and do our own thing. This is a clip during a Clinic and we were working on changes....she was an angel. Well, her Halo may have been held up by horns;)

One good thing is that her smaller trot does not bounce me around making me feel like bowl of jello.....see there are perks to this type...he he he


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zrIRoYP9Qo

Judging by that clip I'd think she could have a big trot... very nice looking from what we could tell there!

I thought my horse had a smaller, easy to sit trot when I bought him. Then he got softer in the back and started pushing from behind more.

My trainer rarely rides him, but I've been having her show him, too, to work on the away-from-home behavior problems I'm not tough enough on him about. It was rather hilarious when she was doing a First-3 trot lengthening and he kicked into the trot he gets with me at times.... all of a sudden he was far higher off the ground and she was shocked, not realizing just how much trot he had in him, since it's rarely what we work on in lessons, with softness and relaxation more important at this stage. She knew he could lengthen; didn't know he could do mediums! :lol:

betsyanne
Jun. 9, 2011, 08:31 PM
Thanks. She has come a long way. Ulcers, Ulcers, Ulcers well you get the idea. Now she is a healthy and fit pony......she always come out and "goes to work" ears up, ready to go.

I love the fact that she may "hover at 50mph" she doesn't go from "0 to 100mph" within a split second a with me falling off the backside like some...I will take her great work ethic and enjoy every ride:)

I'll take the hotter, BRAVE TB types anytime....

betsyanne
Jun. 9, 2011, 08:37 PM
Her trot work is getting better....with real lengthenings too. She just has to be really through in order to do it....getting easier as she is stronger and fitter now. Tons of horses have really good front end movement and often time can fake it with fancy toe flicking. She on the other hand cannot...her lengthenings need to be correct or else we look like a Shetland Pony at a PC rally.....or as my Mom used to call my 10.1hh Shetland pony trotting "typewriter legs":)

GallantGesture
Jun. 10, 2011, 11:56 AM
I think TB's make awesome dressage horses! Sure, many may not be suited for FEI work, but let's be honest, neither are most riders :) But TB's tend to have a great work ethic, and they seem to really like having a close partnership with their riders. They will try and try all day long, and give you that little bit extra when another horse may bail on you. Their gaits usually aren't extravagant, but they are easier to ride and can be improved so much from when you see the horse just after its racing days. They are very trainable, very interested in their jobs, and pretty much game for whatever earns them praise. Find one with nice conformation and nice gaits, and you have the perfect package!

A week ago I took my 5yo ottb to his first show, it was his first field trip anywhere since his racing days so I had no idea how he would handle it, and he was awesome! I guess a show ground is a pretty tame environment after being at the racetrack. He is still pretty immature looking, but he is starting to grow into his legs. As he is gaining strength and learning to balance and coordinate his body, his gaits are really improving. And he is the gentlest, sweetest horse to ride and work around, not at all like the hot, spooky stereotype. I have high hopes for this one, but even if he is not cut out to make it all the way up the levels, I am enjoying every day of the journey with him :)

Remy's first show pics - http://tbatx.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/remys-first-show/

netg
Jun. 10, 2011, 01:12 PM
Thanks everyone who has shown pictures. Let's have more! I'd share more of mine, but really... we need variety not me trying to show off just because I adore my horse. :)


To sum up based on what other people have said about TBs... My horse is just such a joy to be around, and I have never had the chance to work with another horse who portrayed such sheer joy in his work.

creekridgefarm
Jun. 10, 2011, 01:27 PM
Those who think upper level dressage is only for the high $$ WBs need to take a look around. Before the WB invasion and popularity of the "brand", there were plenty of horses who were performing upper level movements, and a large majority of them were TBs. I like to refer a lot of new students to Erik Herbermann's book Dressage Formula which shows him riding all sorts of odd characters -- if you have access to this book, check out the introduction of the horses, and flip through the photos of these backyard wonders doing piaffe, etc.

A horse is limited only by the ability of the rider. Granted, some of these horses are better "suited" for the sport, but ANY horse can do dressage movement (even upper level)... just watch them in the pasture when they get a bug up their behinds...

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jun. 10, 2011, 01:30 PM
Just one of our moments...doing the MO Show Me State Games and a rated dressage show at Columbia, MO, we were doing Intro. We are practicing in the main arena, and all these upper level been there done that warmbloods are absolutely freaking out at the flowers by the judge's stand. And there's my green OTTB, with me, the clueless newbie aboard, just trotting past without even a glance.

BoyleHeightsKid
Jun. 13, 2011, 11:06 AM
Someone snatched Fog Buster up! Was it someone here?

paulaedwina
Jun. 13, 2011, 02:51 PM
Nope t'weren't me. She emailed me to say that someone was coming out to see him the next morning. I wasn't surprised he sold at all.

On another note; while I'm waiting to see 2 TB prospects Jodie Pointer (Cabin Creek Rescue and Retirement) has for me I realized that I was really developing a relationship with one of my equitation trainer's school horses. Cody is a QH who is blind in his right eye. He's a fun school horse, but has been as forward and athletic as a school horse -if you know what I mean. I enjoy him alot, but I never really considered him for dressage. He can carry himself, and he knows his lateral work (Wendy's horses all can flex at the poll, bend, leg yield, shoulder in, haunches in, etc.).

Well she had me riding to music yesterday and I got an extended trot from him! It was like I was used to playing a good pick up game of basketball and the music made him channel his Michael Jordan. Now I'm thinking I can do 1st level with this fellow. First level for sure, who knows maybe 2nd? With training of course. I was giving him his bath after class and thought, "when I get another horse I won't have time for Cody". Hand grazing and bathing him I guess was that final part of the bond?

I'm thinking I'm going to see the horses Jodie called me about, but I think I may well do an open lease on Cody. I can show him for Andelain I think. Not to mention he's a proven trail horse and game for most anything, including competitive trail riding, etc. He's got a patella that freezes up sometimes. For that more hills and trail would be good for him anyway.

Paula

ptownevt
Jun. 13, 2011, 10:24 PM
Okay, here's the guy that started this thread, our very own beloved Gunar, aka, Eightyfive Union.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h240/fototropic/5_12_11SpringandGunar045.jpg

and

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h240/fototropic/5_12_11SpringandGunar029.jpg

TKR
Jun. 14, 2011, 02:59 AM
Love the pictures of Gunar -- he looks so soft and yet forward. My body is in s**t shape between sciatica and a left wrist sprain that won't completely heal plus all my joints are crap. So, I know that my riding time could get limited and my heart is strictly in Thoroughbreds. They are where I feel truly at home and happy and that's what I want to spend my time riding. Once I move the last two wb prospects -- I plan to stick to Thoroughbreds exclusively.
PennyG

ptownevt
Jun. 16, 2011, 03:10 PM
Thank you. We love him.

sophie
Jun. 17, 2011, 08:54 AM
Here's my little (15.1h) Ottb mare that I re-trained myself, and I'm no trainer, lol! So, we'll never do great Dressage-y things, but we're having fun all the same!

Trotting (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/minitutu/2011/Trotleft.png)

Still trotting (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/minitutu/2011/sittingtrot.png)

Cantering (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/minitutu/2011/canterleftlead.png)


She's VERY smooth to sit to, has 3 good gaits (or so dressage judges tell me) and her left-lead canter is a dream :) :)
Oh, and she jumps, too :D :D

buster4100
Jun. 17, 2011, 09:47 PM
I've got Fog Buster! My mom, aunt and I are enjoying him :)
He's been off the track for less than two weeks and he's already one of the laziest horses in the barn haha

TheHorseProblem
Jun. 19, 2011, 07:20 PM
I've got Fog Buster! My mom, aunt and I are enjoying him :)
He's been off the track for less than two weeks and he's already one of the laziest horses in the barn haha

Pictures, please!!!!:)

paulaedwina
Jun. 19, 2011, 08:16 PM
I'll try very hard not to be jealous, but pffffffft. Yes, piccies please.

Paula

BoyleHeightsKid
Jun. 20, 2011, 10:22 AM
Yes Pictures!!!

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jun. 20, 2011, 12:35 PM
^:yes:

fleeced
Jun. 21, 2011, 02:56 AM
I am currently showing a TB stallion at 4th level and schooling PSG. He is much nicer than my imported WB mare!

netg
Jun. 21, 2011, 09:46 AM
I am currently showing a TB stallion at 4th level and schooling PSG. He is much nicer than my imported WB mare!

And again... pictures, please? Was this a sport-bred TB, or an OTTB?

magnolia73
Jun. 21, 2011, 11:22 AM
A horse is limited only by the ability of the rider.

So true- and what seems to happen with OTTB's is that because they are affordable, they get purchased by people with fewer resources to show and train. I have a lovely hunter type OTTB, and I got her because she was inexpensive. If I had the money to train and show in a program, she would be winning- she has all the pieces. :) I lack too many pieces. :lol:

But yeah, if you are buying on a budget, you probably train, and show on the same limited budget.

The cool thing is to look at eventing- and see how many TB's thrive and progress quickly under top riders. I'm sure if say, Robert Dover decided to focus on OTTB's and TB's that he would not be limited to training and first level at the local school shows, and would have little problem selecting and developing upper level horses.

PineTreeFarm
Jun. 21, 2011, 07:29 PM
I am currently showing a TB stallion at 4th level and schooling PSG. He is much nicer than my imported WB mare!

Hmmm. I wonder if you are talking about my favorite TB Stallion?? I thnk you are in Texas so I may be right.

netg
Jun. 21, 2011, 07:31 PM
Hmmm. I wonder if you are talking about my favorite TB Stallion?? I thnk you are in Texas so I may be right.

Ohhh. Yeah, I didn't make the connection and thought "I only knew of one TB stallion competing at that kind of level!"

piaffeprincess98
Jun. 22, 2011, 11:32 AM
I've got some photos of my OTTB doing dressage, but they're all mixed in with jumping shots on FB. Couldn't figure out how to post individual links.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.705909774147.2287626.15612173&l=68a3701502

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/media/set/?set=a.968470310727.2428502.15612173

We're starting to play around with second level movements now that he's pretty confirmed with first level and has lost a lot of his mental tension. We can make more demands and up the degree of difficulty with the lateral work.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jun. 22, 2011, 02:00 PM
LOVE Oh So!!! Nice horse! Looks like a blast to ride.

TKR
Jun. 22, 2011, 02:33 PM
What a gorgeous black horse, Lindsey! Name/pedigree??

PennyG

netg
Jun. 22, 2011, 03:34 PM
Oh So is gorgeous! I'd love to know his pedigree, too, assuming he's not the Oh So here. (http://www.pedigreequery.com/oh+so)

piaffeprincess98
Jun. 22, 2011, 03:36 PM
What a gorgeous black horse, Lindsey! Name/pedigree??

PennyG

His racing name was Private Pleasure. His sire was Private Terms and his dam was Plum Thicket. I Googled his parents when I bought him and this is what came up - http://www.bdthoroughbreds.com/plum.htm and http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55110/private-terms-dead-at-25.

It's cool to see photos. Oh So won one race, and raced until he was 7.

hundredacres
Jun. 22, 2011, 03:42 PM
Yes, Keen was a TB, or at least part.

More recently I bought a 15 yr old TB who had shown thru PSG, had a piaffe and beginnings of passage. He was a lead change MACHINE. I was doing training level at the time. Threw him in a snaffle and off we went; he was quite competitive for me all the way through 4th level and only a bit less competitive at PSG. The problem there was that he is long in the body and I was unable to get him collected enough to get much beyond 60. He is now 21, and has stepped back down to take care of another rider who is leasing him. I chose not to push the collection issue out of respect for him, though w/ work and more strength from me, it could have been there. I wouldn't have traded him for anything.

I just wanted to pop in and say I wish more people shared that level of respect for their horses. What a wonderful relationship you must have had with your horse :). What a refreshing post!

Hounds
Jun. 22, 2011, 03:53 PM
Briefly off-topic: SO excited to see a Private Terms gelding in this forum! I've got one, too, and he's like Lindsay's and so many other horses by Private Terms: nearly jet black, very pretty (if I do say so myself!), and really athletic. I'm only sorry this neat sire is gone now. Congratulations on your success with your Private Terms son in dressage, Lindsay (and to all you others in TBs, too)! A good friend of mine just moved up to Prix St. George with her TB. Love to hear these stories of TBs doing so well.

JazzIT
Jun. 22, 2011, 09:56 PM
third time under saddle for this 4 yo TB mare that I have in training... I think she has potentiel for dressage!

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/268524_10150666930405438_824035437_19252428_210946 _n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270809_10150666930505438_824035437_19252431_668666 5_n.jpg

piaffeprincess98
Jun. 23, 2011, 07:32 AM
Briefly off-topic: SO excited to see a Private Terms gelding in this forum! I've got one, too, and he's like Lindsay's and so many other horses by Private Terms: nearly jet black, very pretty (if I do say so myself!), and really athletic. I'm only sorry this neat sire is gone now. Congratulations on your success with your Private Terms son in dressage, Lindsay (and to all you others in TBs, too)! A good friend of mine just moved up to Prix St. George with her TB. Love to hear these stories of TBs doing so well.

I would love to see a photo. PM me if you want. What discipline do you ride him?

Bronte
Jun. 23, 2011, 09:31 AM
My favourite T/B sport horse stallion.

http://www.afineromance.ca/afineromance.html

DLee
Jun. 23, 2011, 10:09 AM
I have an awesome unraced TB. If I had continued his (and my) training instead of going to vet school, I have no doubt he would make it to the FEI levels. Unfortunately, I don't have the cash for both.

He certainly has the movement, along with all of the sensitivity and brains of a TB. He's my horse of a lifetime, at the exact wrong moment of my life.

This is us about a year and a half ago, showing (an winning) at 1st level:
http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=3630697023/PictureID=128734050023/a=154511871_154511871/

And this him a couple of months ago, after having most of my freshman year of vet school off due to my schedule:
http://youtu.be/5DNzcG1sxnI

Wow he is lovely! I had a super grey TB with Morning Bob on his topside as well.
And I have two Mr. Prospector's that are wonderful. :)

TheHorseProblem
Jun. 23, 2011, 10:48 AM
third time under saddle for this 4 yo TB mare that I have in training... I think she has potentiel for dressage!

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/268524_10150666930405438_824035437_19252428_210946 _n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270809_10150666930505438_824035437_19252431_668666 5_n.jpg

When her neck muscles develop a bit more, look out! She is NICE!:yes:

buster4100
Jun. 23, 2011, 05:41 PM
Fog Buster pictures!!!

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1006045079723.2001083.1482780080&saved#!/media/set/?set=a.2142804898008.2133557.1482780080

paulaedwina
Jun. 23, 2011, 07:44 PM
I got a "temporarily unavailable" message.:(

Paula

buster4100
Jun. 23, 2011, 08:10 PM
I got a "temporarily unavailable" message.:(

Paula



Hmmm strange. Maybe try again in a little bit?

netg
Jun. 23, 2011, 09:21 PM
Hmmm strange. Maybe try again in a little bit?

I got the error before and it's working now.

He's adorable!

EqTrainer
Jun. 23, 2011, 09:24 PM
Private Terms.. Gotta be a Private Account. Best kept secret in horsedom, best minded horses ever.

Oh and the mare? Wild Again. Tasty.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jun. 23, 2011, 10:37 PM
Cute Buster! Thanks for the pics. The link worked.

paulaedwina
Jun. 23, 2011, 10:53 PM
What do you think about this guy?

http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3335:handsome-4-yo-copper-bay-gelding&catid=49:charlestown-trainer-listings

Paula

netg
Jun. 24, 2011, 01:43 AM
What do you think about this guy?

http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3335:handsome-4-yo-copper-bay-gelding&catid=49:charlestown-trainer-listings

Paula

It's hard to answer because track pictures are so hard to take well. His shoulder appears to be quite decent from that pic, as well as his humerus angle and length. His hind end looks like with dressage conditioning he'd look good there, too. Probably. The way he's standing he looks too straight in the back end angles, but his back leg is clearly out behind him, so I'm only guessing in saying I think it would look good.

The biggest thing I would wonder about is his back toes look like they may point straight ahead. I actually prefer for the entire leg to be slightly rotated so the hind toes point out, as when they bring the hind leg forward the stifle more easily clears their belly. One of those things which goes against what I've been taught for conformation, but which I've picked up from seeing the horses I like in motion and still. You can see his weight is toward the front left - I don't think his front right will actually toe out like it looks in the pic. Overall, I think he'd be worth looking at, especially if the temperament they describe sounds appealing to you.

piaffeprincess98
Jun. 24, 2011, 06:54 AM
Private Terms.. Gotta be a Private Account. Best kept secret in horsedom, best minded horses ever.

Oh and the mare? Wild Again. Tasty.
Really? That's interesting to know. I think that since Oh So has matured, he's become a very good minded horse. He used to be his own worst enemy on the flat and would get too worked up jumping, but something magically changed this past year.

I'm not sure if anyone else sees this in their OTTBs, but I have to say that you can tell Oh So really enjoys life. He seems to "live life to the fullest" as humans say. I think he's happy to be alive and not stuck back in a stall at the track with no one to hand walk him. His ears are always forward and he's always alert.

I always give this example when telling people about his personality. I have a purpose-bred Irish TB eventer who can be a real fireball under saddle jumping, but in the field when he wants water, he'll amble over to the trough if it's far away, take a drink, then amble back to graze.

Oh So will gallop over, splash his whole head around in the trough, drink, then gallop back to graze.

paulaedwina
Jun. 24, 2011, 08:08 AM
Thanks, netg,

I saw some of the same things you did. I agree; it's a bit of a challenge to predict what he's going to look like let down. However, I did notice his shoulder (good), strong back, and his topline (good). I didn't think about toeing in or out. I didn't think he was straight behind, but as you say; the way he's standing it's hard to tell. He has a silly neck - a bit of a ewe neck. His pretty well balanced looking though. I'll give the trainer a call. He's posted in MidAtlantic Canter, but that area code is Florida so we'll see what's going on there. I'll drive to Charlestown, but not to Florida!

Paula

TemJeito
Jun. 24, 2011, 09:10 AM
There's a good article by a COTH blogger, Allie Conrad, on picking an OTTB. She's writing about eventing, but it applies to dressage as well. Some people have the gift to see the potential in a weedy-looking ugly duckling. It's not magic but based on years of experience with hundreds of horses. I don't have that vision, but rely on friends and trainers to do it for me.

paulaedwina
Jun. 24, 2011, 09:51 AM
Wow, Dude, update your ad. The horse sold a while ago:confused:

Paula

netg
Jun. 24, 2011, 10:32 AM
He has a silly neck - a bit of a ewe neck. His pretty well balanced looking though. I'll give the trainer a call. He's posted in MidAtlantic Canter, but that area code is Florida so we'll see what's going on there. I'll drive to Charlestown, but not to Florida!

Paula

I tend to say thin neck, not ewe neck - lots of on track TBs seem to have ewe necks due to the shape of their muscling, but if it's in the muscling they can condition out of that. I agree about his balance looking good - I wouldn't bother with a horse who looked very unbalanced, even if it could just be a bad photo.

Sorry to hear he sold. :( There are lots of cute MA horses, though - I hope you find one!

TheHorseProblem
Jun. 24, 2011, 10:48 AM
Fog Buster pictures!!!

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1006045079723.2001083.1482780080&saved#!/media/set/?set=a.2142804898008.2133557.1482780080

"Content is currently unavailable." Is that because I am not a FB user?

paulaedwina
Jun. 24, 2011, 11:18 AM
RE: I tend to say thin neck, not ewe neck - lots of on track TBs seem to have ewe necks due to the shape of their muscling, but if it's in the muscling they can condition out of that.

Well I've learned something new! I always thought of ewe necks as a muscling issue - the wrong muscle developing/muscle development from blocking or bracing etc. What you're saying is that ewe necks are actually a conformational thing not just muscle and I've been conflating two characteristics? Since I've always thought of ewe necks as a muscling issue I always assumed it could be something that is fixable by training and relaxation of the topline (in exercise, etc).

Thanks,
Paula

paulaedwina
Jun. 24, 2011, 11:51 AM
So how difficult is it to geld a colt? The barn where he'll be boarded has geldings and mares. It is not set up for stallions. This guy http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3838:workforacure-4-yo-colt&catid=52:laurel-bowie-pimlico-trainer-listings may be a give away and I think he looks pretty interesting. He's shorter than I'd like (15.3 is my lower limit), but I like his bone.


Paula

paulaedwina
Jun. 24, 2011, 12:06 PM
Strike 2 - that guy's gone too. But when I was talking to the trainer he said his wife is in dressage and he has another colt he thinks might work for me. This other colt is bigger. The trainer is in Canada at the moment so I'm to call him back on Monday so he can send me pictures. I asked him point blank if I was wasting his time inquiring about his colt if I needed to have him gelded before he could come to my barn and he assured me not, that his colts were still colts because they were well behaved.

Heck, with a give away the money that would have gone into purchase would easily cover gelding and vetting.

Paula

Hounds
Jun. 24, 2011, 01:31 PM
Sent you a PM, Lindsay!

netg
Jun. 24, 2011, 02:07 PM
Well I've learned something new! I always thought of ewe necks as a muscling issue - the wrong muscle developing/muscle development from blocking or bracing etc. What you're saying is that ewe necks are actually a conformational thing not just muscle and I've been conflating two characteristics? Since I've always thought of ewe necks as a muscling issue I always assumed it could be something that is fixable by training and relaxation of the topline (in exercise, etc).

Thanks,
Paula

I don't truly know if that would be considered a ewe neck. However, I have seen horses where the neck structure is ewe, and they can't muscle out of it. While a lot of people would call that horse's neck a ewe neck, I think it's one which would develop nicely to a better shape even if not perfectly ideal. As far as conformation issues go, it wouldn't make me hesitate - but one where the neck shape itself bends that way, rather than where there's a lack of muscling on top, would worry me. (And again, not a reference to large underside muscle either, though large underside muscle would tend to scare me away from a prospect if it weren't a track horse.) Do you have an age range, too?

Edit:
I tend to ride shorter backs better, so this wouldn't be an ideal horse for me, but an example of the kind of horse I think looks super nice off the Charlestown listings. Really if you can just get on the backside and be ready w/ money, there will be plenty to see!
http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3905:adorable-6-yo-bay-gelding&catid=49:charlestown-trainer-listings

Old Fashioned
Jun. 24, 2011, 02:45 PM
Here is my baby. She's two and won't be under saddle for awhile. But she is my <3 horse. I've been looking for her for a very long time. :winkgrin:

Annabelle (http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/Quartermarks/annabelle.jpg)

TheHorseProblem
Jun. 24, 2011, 03:02 PM
Here is my baby. She's two and won't be under saddle for awhile. But she is my <3 horse. I've been looking for her for a very long time. :winkgrin:

Annabelle (http://s1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/Quartermarks/?action=view&current=215630_215945905088558_100000194497264_978 012_5622765_n.jpg#!oZZ1QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs12 21.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd468%2FQuartermarks %2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D215630_21594590508 8558_100000194497264_978012_5622765_n.jpg)



What a doll!

lizathenag
Jun. 24, 2011, 03:05 PM
My profile pic was taken at a DeKunffy clinic a few years ago.

paulaedwina
Jun. 24, 2011, 03:17 PM
Netg,

That guy http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3905:adorable-6-yo-bay-gelding&catid=49:charlestown-trainer-listings made my initial list even though he is a bit long in the back, but he's quite camped under in front. Otherwise he had a nice shoulder.

I'm looking at geldings (mostly) up to about 10 years old, and ideally about 16 hh. I'd take 15.3 if he is girthy enough to take up my leg. I need bone so I'm looking for the old fashioned, heavier TB as opposed to the current greyhound type. I'm not in a hurry, and I have a few people keeping an eye out for me.

The deal breakers: downhill, weak back, cribbers, splints, chips, osslets. I'd consider an old cold bow.

And for an OTTB I'm not looking to spend more than $1500, especially if it's no-ride speculation.

BTW I thought this guy http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3807:handsome-6-yo-gelding&catid=49:charlestown-trainer-listings might be interesting. He's got a bit of a wackadoo expression though.

Hey Old Fashioned, I'm partial to geldings myself, but your Annabelle sure is shiny. I'd love to see pictures of her as she grows and fills out.

Paula

PineTreeFarm
Jun. 24, 2011, 03:41 PM
Private Terms.. Gotta be a Private Account. Best kept secret in horsedom, best minded horses ever.

Oh and the mare? Wild Again. Tasty.

Dance Account, dam of Sea Accounts ( approved stallion RPSI ) is by Private Account.
I have two of her grand kids that I own and they show in Hunters and one 2 yr old out of her who I own in partnership so no secret to me. LOL

TKR
Jun. 24, 2011, 05:01 PM
Annabelle is adorable! What is her pedigree. I'm mortified (not surprised, unfortunately) that a breeder would do such a poor job with any youngsters. It sounds like they raise their precious wb babies the same way -- jeez, I'm so anal about the nutrition along with everything else. I hate to hear about irresponsible breeders with such a cavalier attitude!
PennyG

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jun. 24, 2011, 07:04 PM
Here are a couple in PA that might be worth a look-see:

http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3861:update-5911-price-reduced-qfrankieq&catid=58:pa-trainer-listings

http://canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3852:skinny-pants&catid=58:pa-trainer-listings

paulaedwina
Jun. 24, 2011, 07:17 PM
Thanks for looking. Those 2 did end up on my initial list of interesting TBs, but the first one had a knee chip removed (I'm really paranoid about certain injuries and early onset arthritis when I can afford 1 horsie), and the other is asking far too much (IMO) for an untested OTTB with a bow that they didn't say is a year old).

Don't worry; keep your eye out. I know I am.

Paula

Old Fashioned
Jun. 24, 2011, 08:38 PM
Paula - I've never wanted to own a mare. But she just spoke to me. She'd better be shiny I spend a lot of time rubbing her everyday! :winkgrin:

TKR - It amazes me how cavalier breeders can be at such a crucial time in a horse's life. I have never personally been to the place and the website shows sale babies in good flesh so I can only imagine how it happened. I do know that they've bought another nice TB mare ready to drop soon. With, you guessed it, another freebie TB baby. I think someone else from my barn is waiting to see what happens. :D

paulaedwina
Jun. 24, 2011, 08:48 PM
LOL! Shiny is the science fiction dork in me. It's how things were described as nice/pretty/beautiful/impressive, etc. on Firefly :lol: Oui; je suis dork :lol::lol:.

She is a good looking gal. I understand about not looking for a mare and a mare finding you. I have Rhodesian Ridgebacks and swore up and down I didn't like the females because they were small and pin headed. Wouldn't you know, while as a volunteer in ridgeback rescue, I was adopted by a particularly small and pin headed ridgie named Nandi. She stole my heart as a 9 year old foster and stayed there until she died of cancer at 13.

BTW, an internet buddy just sent me this listing http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAd?AdId=291552353&MessageId=MSG.VIEW_AD.REPLY_TO_AD_SENT&mpname=R2S&mpname=Activity-R2S&mpuid=1700276%3B217%3B291552353%3B-1139424038%3B%3B&secev=AQAAATC5y9AAAM0AAAACACIxMzBjNDNjMmMzMC5hMjBi MjY1LjY0NGE1LmZmZmY4NGM4AAAAABFgvGEBAAAAAgAAAAB3NZ QAEoCiOpBaQjN6lIhIM9M5dXUx2vI*

Too bad he's in Canada because he sounds like my kind of guy!:lol:

Paula

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jun. 25, 2011, 04:08 PM
BTW, an internet buddy just sent me this listing http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAd?AdId=291552353&MessageId=MSG.VIEW_AD.REPLY_TO_AD_SENT&mpname=R2S&mpname=Activity-R2S&mpuid=1700276%3B217%3B291552353%3B-1139424038%3B%3B&secev=AQAAATC5y9AAAM0AAAACACIxMzBjNDNjMmMzMC5hMjBi MjY1LjY0NGE1LmZmZmY4NGM4AAAAABFgvGEBAAAAAgAAAAB3NZ QAEoCiOpBaQjN6lIhIM9M5dXUx2vI*

Too bad he's in Canada because he sounds like my kind of guy!:lol:

Paula


DOOD!!!! Go get him, he's nice!!! I know shipping over the border is a PITA, but this guys is a steal IMHO.

paulaedwina
Jun. 25, 2011, 04:56 PM
I know! Isn't he ridiculous!

Paula

TheHorseProblem
Jun. 28, 2011, 10:05 PM
Please forgive me if someone already posted this, but I just saw this on the racing forum and it is so awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx8IFlknNIU&feature=youtu.be

paulaedwina
Jun. 28, 2011, 10:22 PM
THAT was brilliant! Thanks for posting it.

Paula

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jun. 28, 2011, 10:23 PM
Love it!

thatmoody
Jul. 25, 2011, 02:38 PM
So I'm resurrecting this thread because I just added to my herd an OTTB - a Peace Rules/Inner Circle son (Mr. Prospector top and bottom, interestingly enough) who I'm hoping will be my next dressage star. Quite a change from the friesian but I rather like him! A relaxing change and very easy to ride.

And pretty, I LIKE pretty horses:
Cash - http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/thatmoody/cash.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/thatmoody/cashcanter.jpg

Petstorejunkie
Jul. 25, 2011, 03:24 PM
who I'm hoping will be my next dressage star.
you might as well bet on it. you have an eye for gooduns!
Congrats on your new partner

thatmoody
Jul. 25, 2011, 04:40 PM
Thanks - yeah my trainer looked at him and said "THAT's a tb?" I said "hey, what's wrong with that?" He's not my first rodeo with a tb, because we used to pull them from the track all the time for barrel racing, but I've never repurposed one for dressage. This should be interesting!

Eggplant_Dressing
Jul. 25, 2011, 04:47 PM
Gosh - now that IS a NICE looking horse!! Congratulations!

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 25, 2011, 04:51 PM
Cash - http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/thatmoody/cash.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/thatmoody/cashcanter.jpg

:eek::eek::eek: Gorgeous!

netg
Jul. 26, 2011, 01:07 PM
Thanks - yeah my trainer looked at him and said "THAT's a tb?" I said "hey, what's wrong with that?" He's not my first rodeo with a tb, because we used to pull them from the track all the time for barrel racing, but I've never repurposed one for dressage. This should be interesting!

Did your trainer think he doesn't look like a TB somehow, because he sure does to me!

Did you get him from a private person or CANTER or something? He looks familiar, so I'm trying to figure out if I've seen him before. :)

Very nice looking choice, though, regardless - and have fun!

My TB has his moments when his brain shuts down, but really overall he's the easiest horse I've ever worked with, and just a joy to see every day.

thatmoody
Jul. 26, 2011, 02:39 PM
He looks like a TB to me, too - she thought he looked like an appendix QH - there are a LOT of them in our area. He raced a few times but never earned much - I bought him from a private person (a friend of mine is an exercise rider at Belmont and she got hold of him from the trainer). His JC name is Ourwingman, and he's by Peace Rules out of Inner Circle. He's Florida bred, and mostly raced at Calder, though, I think :P. He has really clean x-rays, too, which is nice!

INoMrEd
Jul. 26, 2011, 02:52 PM
So I'm resurrecting this thread because I just added to my herd an OTTB - a Peace Rules/Inner Circle son (Mr. Prospector top and bottom, interestingly enough) who I'm hoping will be my next dressage star. Quite a change from the friesian but I rather like him! A relaxing change and very easy to ride.

And pretty, I LIKE pretty horses:
Cash - http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/thatmoody/cash.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/thatmoody/cashcanter.jpg

Congratulations he's gorgeous! Looks like an uphill dressage horse even in his Western tack.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jul. 26, 2011, 02:58 PM
Nice looking boy!

netg
Jul. 26, 2011, 04:00 PM
He looks like a TB to me, too - she thought he looked like an appendix QH - there are a LOT of them in our area. He raced a few times but never earned much - I bought him from a private person (a friend of mine is an exercise rider at Belmont and she got hold of him from the trainer). His JC name is Ourwingman, and he's by Peace Rules out of Inner Circle. He's Florida bred, and mostly raced at Calder, though, I think :P. He has really clean x-rays, too, which is nice!

See, I would more say the Appendix QHes look like TBs. Which is kind of the whole point of why they get crossed with them...

But then again, I am the one who gets slightly (very, very slightly, as in I forget it 5 seconds later) insulted when folks say my TB looks like a WB, so who am I to say?

thatmoody
Jul. 26, 2011, 05:06 PM
Ah, see, I don't care one way or the other. I just kind of say "oh, that's interesting" and go on about my business. All my horses have been very distinctive anyway (heck, I ride a friesian for gawd's sakes) so I'm kind of used to people making snarky comments about my horses. I have a thick skin and deaf ears.

Fourbeats
Jul. 26, 2011, 07:50 PM
I'm so glad you went ahead and bought this horse. He's so good looking! He's my kind of TB, I would have had a hard time passing him up.

thatmoody
Jul. 26, 2011, 09:22 PM
I went back and forth for a while on him, but finally the seller made me an offer I couldn't refuse :P. So yeah, he's coming home on Friday. Eventually he may become DD's mount but right now he's a bit much for her, so we are still looking for her horse.

netg
Jul. 27, 2011, 01:55 AM
Ah, see, I don't care one way or the other. I just kind of say "oh, that's interesting" and go on about my business. All my horses have been very distinctive anyway (heck, I ride a friesian for gawd's sakes) so I'm kind of used to people making snarky comments about my horses. I have a thick skin and deaf ears.

Oh, it bothers me for about 5 seconds only because I think it's silly how people sell horses short - there's a reason WBs have so much TB blood. I'm not anti-WB or anything, though, so I really do take it as someone saying my horse is nicely balanced and uphill, and that the individual speaking just doesn't realize TBs can have a decent topline and uphill build, so my horse gets to prove that it happens.

TemJeito
Jul. 27, 2011, 09:44 AM
I loved the video of Silva Martin and the TB :) I would love to send my mare to her for training.

Someone gave me a copy of a UK magazine (Your Horse, June issue) that has a story of Laura Bechtolsheimer working with a middle-aged amateur on the rider's "schoolmistress" TB. It has lots of great info and pictures and Laura's comments about TB's. The article also says Laura's second GP horse, Andretti, is TB (though I think he has a little bit of something else).

I have to say I hate the "but he/she doesn't look like a TB" comments, which I hear about my mare, because it stereotypes TB's and implies that the typical TB look is inferior. And my mare does look like a TB :D

vineyridge
Jul. 27, 2011, 09:55 AM
There is a Devil's Bag son in Texas (I think Texas) named Twilight Agenda who has got two pure dressage horses out of four registered with the USEF.

Anyone know anything about this guy?

springer
Jul. 27, 2011, 09:30 PM
I would LOVE to find a thoroughbred mare for my breeding program. My Springer was one of those rare ones who was built for dressage and moved with lovely suspension. He passed away in 2006. Anyone who knows of a TB mare with those qualities- please let me know! I am looking!!!

ptownevt
Jul. 27, 2011, 10:51 PM
Cash is lovely! Congratulations! Keep us posted on how he does.

TheHorseProblem
Sep. 22, 2011, 03:00 PM
There is a thread in the H/J forum on a CANTER horse, and that got me thinking about this guy...


Fog Buster pictures!!!

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1006045079723.2001083.1482780080&saved#!/media/set/?set=a.2142804898008.2133557.1482780080

Bumping because I was never able to see his pictures (CANTER is quick to take them down when the horse is sold, and I am not on FB) so I googled and found some:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30752

I would love to hear an update on him. :)

BoldChance
Sep. 23, 2011, 12:08 PM
Hmmm....a Mr Prospector....I'm a fan of those....

Saw a horse I admired at a dressage clinic. Went to rider and asked about the horse. Rider said, "TB".....I asked if he was by Mr. Prospector.....yup!!!! You can pick them out....quite distinguished and quite suitable for dressage.

Woohoo! I just got a Mr Prospector grandson too! So I'm pretty thrilled to read this!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/paddys+road

Paddy's Road. 3yo, 16h, unraced, got him 3 weeks ago and haven't ridden him yet. But he exhibited an awfully nice, floaty trot in his paddock, and on a lunge line :) Not WB calibre, granted, but nice enough for me!

He may be a bit straight in the shoulder. But meh, whatever.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150354750476079.395797.521861078#!/photo.php?fbid=10150354750696079&set=a.10150354750476079.395797.521861078&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150354750476079.395797.521861078#!/photo.php?fbid=10150354751071079&set=a.10150354750476079.395797.521861078&type=1&theater

Brought him home, spent a couple days on groundwork, and he wound up kicked out waiting for a) farrier to finish haying and have time to slap some shoes on him, and b) trainer to also finish haying and have time to help me with him. and c) me to have a bit more time to dedicate. perhaps in a week or so? Yano, when we're doing haying? ;-)

OTOH, I also have a teeny tiny 15hish 3yo warmblood gelding ... Dam is a Secretariat grand daughter (full TB), sire is Case (Come Back II). Cute, FABULOUS mover, not broke but already exhibiting a belligerent, grudging, "MAKE ME" attitude.

TB, otoh, just wants to be someone's best bud and seems the type to do anything for his rider, so long as it's fairly asked, and understood. I cannot WAIT to get on him! :winkgrin:

At the end of the day, one will likely wind up sold and I'll keep the other. I'm already pretty sure the keeper is the TB :D (That, or they'll both be phenomenal and I won't be selling anyone. Lol).


In keeping with the discussion, I know my trainer is none-too-thrilled with my recent straight-from-the-track acquisition. She's not horrified, but I'm pretty sure she's thinking "another one with no real potential"... however.. she has a tendancy to look at everything and if it isn't GP wow and fancy, it's "not really suitable for dressage."

I have a different opinion, looking at rideability, brain, and... yano... the fact that I'm too much of a dunce to ever get to Olympic level, so why do I need an Olympic calibre horse?

Plus, I heart TB's like no other. Ride them right and they are just so EASY ... WB's are so cool to sit on, but I find them harder to ride. Not more complicated, per say, but just harder. Harder to stay with. Harder to mold. Not quite so catlike and agile. Not quite so easy to shift where you want them.

My last OTTB, my wonderful poly horse, could do rather nice, straight, canter legyields out in the field within 30 rides of coming off the track. It was easy.. And it wasn't due to training ... we were cantering down the field, I needed him to be 20 feet over to the left, so... we just went. Nicely legyielding off the right leg. I said "We need to go there" and Poly went. Blast, I miss that horse. :sadsmile:

He had a killer suspension in his trot, only exhibited when goofing off free in the arena. I'm sure it would have been there U/S, but sadly, our partnership was riddled with soundness issue after soundness issue (He was chronically unsound, but never in the same leg twice!!!!!). Lost him when he tore all the ligaments in his last good leg. He was nine, and had been "retired" for a year already prior to that as he was just incapable of keeping all of his body parts in solid working order.

not the best picture, but... This was from... 2008, I think..http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4260231078.2448.521861078&type=1#!/photo.php?fbid=6356156078&set=a.4260231078.2448.521861078&type=1&theater

He was a Seattle Slew grandson (I love Slew bred horses for temperament...I've had two and they were GOLDEN).

Yeah.. so I'm kinda anxious to start with the new guy! Love EqTrainer's post. That just makes me more anxious!

thatmoody
Sep. 24, 2011, 07:57 AM
So just an update on our under saddle work. We are doing well, some lunging in side reins to get him stretching down into the bit (mghmph mghmph, oh, THERE'S that thing!) before we ride, and the left lead canter is definitely a work in progress. The lunging is helping that, as well, and will have the chiropractor out in the next week or so to make sure that is not an issue. Easy to ride, though, for sure, in spite of baby balance! My last horse (the infamous Jorrit) made me work SO hard for every nuance of balance and core strength, due to that massive friesian trot, and while those are certainly still things I have to work on (my hands need to be even steadier now to teach this one contact) it doesn't feel like such a difficult task.

One issue I'm having, though, is switching from such a HARD (as in difficult, requires such strong aids) to such a SOFT horse. I am tending to over-aid, and am watching that.

We will have issues in our tests with tension, I can tell already - he tends to crank up in his neck and back when he is unsure, but this is an issue we can work on, as the brain is there. He's been in dressage training for what, a month? Every ride we work on long and low, but keeping him from dumping on the forehand is a challenge. Training him is easy, training him right will be good for me. Glad I have a good instructor :). And DARN is he a pretty thing. I don't think I've ever SEEN such a pretty TB. They sent his dad over to Korea to be part of their breeding program and he will be sorely missed over here.

Edit: I'm TERRIBLE at taking pictures - just realized in this one that he looks...well, not quite like himself. But you can get an idea of the butt, anyway :). His shoulder is still a bit straight, and his legs a bit light, but clean (and clean x-rays, as well!). His neck ties in a bit low, etc. but he's built well for speed. Should do well on an xc course eventually with DD.
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/315643_10100591507411252_5128708_59067322_12907278 69_n.jpg

GonnaFlyNow
Sep. 30, 2011, 11:40 AM
BoldChance, I had a Slew grandson, and he was AWESOME. Had lovely suspension at the trot, a gorgeous canter, and super sensitive to the aids. He threw some very athletic temper tantrums on occasion, but overall was just the coolest guy in the barn, with a class clown type of personality. Came to me with the name RockStar ... didn't take long for me to figure out why! :lol:
He also had soundness issues, but his were earned ... I later found out he had 53 starts under his belt!

not again
Sep. 30, 2011, 11:51 AM
There are four pictures in the top row of my OTTB le Bleme, eventing at Intermediate on this FB link:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.411568865238.206352.160425195238
He also competed through Grand Prix dressage and won many working hunter championships. Very versatile fellow!