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xQHDQ
May. 30, 2011, 08:06 AM
I scribed for a judge at a large recognized show this weekend whose behavior I thought was disrespectful of riders. Now, I've scribed for more than a dozen judges over the years, and have always thought they've been honest, fair, and out for the best interest of both horses and riders. That is until this weekend. It seemed like she just wanted to get through it.

She definitely appeared distracted, and she missed parts of movements. For example, while she was taking a bite of breakfast a horse cantered a step while entering at A and then again when departing after the first salute at X (it was a TL test, so it was all supposed to be trot). She gave the horse an 8 on that movement. She scored Jr/Youth riders higher - she actually said "Oh it's a kid, then a 7". One of her popular comments was "rider on wrong seatbone," without saying how it affected the horse's movement. You can be riding backwards as long as the horse is going right. A more appropriate comment I think would have been "haunches thrown rt due to rider on incorrect seatbone" or just "haunches rt" and explain at the end. Usually I can figure out after a couple of rides what the judge will score after giving me comments, but this judge was so inconsistent. The same comment would give totally different scores. The same mistake/success would give totally different scores.

I don't want to get anyone in trouble. Maybe she was just having a bad day. I did send an email to the show organizer voicing my concerns. Should I have? Should I do anything else?

ThreeFigs
May. 30, 2011, 08:40 AM
You did the right thing. If the judge was simply having a bad day, she needs to know someone noticed. Maybe next time she'll mind her P's and Q's.

In addition, you might contact USEF. Any judge can make a mistake or miss an occasional movement, but the "Oh, it's a kid, then a 7" strikes me as so wrong. This was a recognized show -- "kids" at recognized shows should expect fair and unbiased judging, not squishy scoring because they're cute.

SillyHorse
May. 30, 2011, 09:03 AM
For example, while she was taking a bite of breakfast a horse cantered a step while entering at A and then again when departing after the first salute at X (it was a TL test, so it was all supposed to be trot). She gave the horse an 8 on that movement.
This doesn't necessarily bother me; maybe the score would have been a 9 if not for those slight mistakes. The rest of what you wrote would have made me uncomfortable, too,

JWB
May. 30, 2011, 09:15 AM
I had a judge miss the entire second half of my test at a recognized horse trial (she said I didn't do the 2nd canter but video shows her staring at her lap while I did it) and it irks the heck out of me. She was generous enough to let me re-ride the movement but only after about 5 minutes of discussion, in which my 5-y.o. had become very fidgety and impatient. She bucked through the transition on the re-ride. Thanks for the 3!

You did the right thing.


I also went to a schooling show with an "l" judge. She had her dog sitting on the table next to her. It didn't bug my horse but I thought that was a little disrespectful too.

Equibrit
May. 30, 2011, 09:46 AM
from the USDF Annual Meeting (Dec 2010);

"Competitors, scribes, TD's, and show management were reminded that if there is a judge complaint during a show (no comments for 6/s, too few comments, rude comments, use of cell phone etc) that they should fill out a Judge report form, available in the show office or online, send photocopies of the test and send it to the USEF, c/o the LOC. If there are more than 3 reports from the same show, the judge will be contacted by the LOC."

atlatl
May. 30, 2011, 10:37 AM
... One of her popular comments was "rider on wrong seatbone," without saying how it affected the horse's movement. You can be riding backwards as long as the horse is going right. A more appropriate comment I think would have been "haunches thrown rt due to rider on incorrect seatbone" or just "haunches rt" and explain at the end. Usually I can figure out after a couple of rides what the judge will score after giving me comments, but this judge was so inconsistent. The same comment would give totally different scores. The same mistake/success would give totally different scores.



Given that sitting on the wrong seatbone is one of my personal weaknesses, I totally get the comment. Not knowing your background and qualifications, your comment regarding a "more appropriate comment" could be interpreted as disrespectful.

I'm pretty sure that the judges are there to judge and not instruct. While it's nice for a judge to give helpful comments, it isn't required and should not be expected.

If you feel the judge's behavior was inappropriate, you should complain through the official channels as noted by others. If you are engaged with the show committee, bring it to their attention. Nothing makes a bigger impression than NOT hiring that judge a second time.

mbm
May. 30, 2011, 11:57 AM
while i agree that poor judging should be noted (as well as good judging) it kinda freaks me out that scribes, show moms, and others are the ones that judge the judges.

do these folks have the required education to know what is correct judging?

perhaps there should be videos of rides and copies of tests done randomly and then an appropriately educated committee to look them over.

ThreeFigs
May. 30, 2011, 12:16 PM
I think a scribe is in a very good position to know whether or not a judge is doing his/her job. I'm not saying tht the scribe should agree with everything the judge says or the scores given -- that's above a scribe's paygrade, after all. The scribe is there to write things down, nothing more.

A scribe certainly knows that giving a cute kid a higher score than deserved is questionable, and inconsistency sends the wrong message to all competitors.

I've seen judges and competitors take the common pleasantries of "hello" or "have a nice ride" (often exchanged as the competitor rides past the booth) waaaay past what propriety would dictate.

That behavior calls into question the judge's ability to judge without bias.

CatOnLap
May. 30, 2011, 12:21 PM
I doubt one needs to be a judge to be able to see that eating or talking on a cell phone or the like, while judging, is disrespectful, that not watching the ride while judging is disrespectful and incompetent, and that having a dog as a shadow judge is... distracting and humourous, but not against any rule that I know.

That said, I wonder why the organizing committee or show steward did not give the judge a break to have her breakfast. A cup of coffee or a drink at the judging booth is fine, but a breakfast sandwich should be consumed before one climbs the steps to the judge's booth.

And it is the lot of good scribes, that many of us are as good or better at catching the movements as judges are, but until we've gone and done the weekends of teaching and practice that judges have, we ought not to comment on those skills.

I think the OP was right to notify the organizer and probably could have filled out a report on some of the behavior. However, after the fact it is difficult to remember which test these things occurred on and even harder at this point to get the necessary photocopies of the test. File that info away for next time.

PiaffePlease
May. 30, 2011, 03:01 PM
I had a judge like this once. She missed several whole movements of the test and then told me to reride them after I was done and walking on a long rein. Her comments were very rude as well. Im not looking forward to be judged by her again.

Its one thing for a rider to complain, but I think it means more for a scribe to complain. A rider could just be upset over their score and submit a complaint.

Capriole
May. 30, 2011, 03:44 PM
I did send an email to the show organizer voicing my concerns. Should I have? Should I do anything else?
What you should have done was complete a USEF evaluation form. They are required to be available at every show and are also available online. http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/LicOffEvaluation.pdf

The seatbone thing doesn't bother me. I don't find it a helpful comment, but it's not inappropriate. Every judge misses a movement once in a while, that's life. Scoring the junior riders higher is inappropriate.

Capriole
May. 30, 2011, 03:46 PM
while i agree that poor judging should be noted (as well as good judging) it kinda freaks me out that scribes, show moms, and others are the ones that judge the judges.
Not like the eminently qualified internet railbirds! THEY should be evaluating the judges. :lol:

ANYONE can and should fill out evaluation forms, both positive and negative. Riders, trainers, other officials ... everyone is encouraged to complete them.

xQHDQ
May. 30, 2011, 04:47 PM
Thanks for the suggestion of filling out the USEF form. I think I'm going to wait to see what show management says first. Maybe they've had other complaints about her, or maybe she was just having a bad day and the scribes for the other days thought she was awesome.

yaya
May. 30, 2011, 04:51 PM
Don't wait too long. Evaluation forms have to be sent in within 10 days after the show.

MassageLady
May. 30, 2011, 11:44 PM
I once took my arab to a schooling show for dressage-with all the other horses being warmbloods...needless to say, the judge ignored my entire first ride. So, I figured-the next ride she'll have to look at me! So I took off the nice solid colored saddle pad-and put on my HOT PINK WITH SYLVESTER FACES WITH HIM DOING 'RASPBERRIES' on my horse. Then picked a flower-hot pink-and put it in the lapel! I believe she couldn't take her eyes off of me! They have a responsibility to watch and judge every rider-not dismiss them because of what breed they're on. If that's the case, then I should've been there for free.

dghunter
May. 31, 2011, 09:47 AM
My trainer was at a show last year and the judge missed one of the movements and asked her about it at the end. It was actually really good so trainer said it was better than the other way (it was) and the judge gave her an 8!

bornfreenowexpensive
May. 31, 2011, 09:57 AM
My trainer was at a show last year and the judge missed one of the movements and asked her about it at the end. It was actually really good so trainer said it was better than the other way (it was) and the judge gave her an 8!


At a schooling show this wouldn't bother me at all...especially if the judge knows your trainer. It happens....the schooling show isn't about the placings...it is about schooling.


Judges are not perfect. Also I've scribed a lot...no way in hell can I judge the judge. I'm often too busy writing to actually see what is going on in the ring--other than minor glimps.

As to the youth comment...the judge could have been on the fence....about the move being a 6 or 7....and then decided on a 7. Again...that really isn't so bad and doesn't bug me --it is not as if a judge puts down really nasty comments. (like you-or your horse-- are too fat to ride...or your horse should be pulling a cart;))

mp
May. 31, 2011, 09:58 AM
I once took my arab to a schooling show for dressage-with all the other horses being warmbloods...needless to say, the judge ignored my entire first ride.

You mean you didn't get any scores or comments? Or you didn't like the scores and comments?

dghunter
May. 31, 2011, 10:46 AM
At a schooling show this wouldn't bother me at all...especially if the judge knows your trainer. It happens....the schooling show isn't about the placings...it is about schooling.


It was a recognized show :yes: It is where we show a lot but the judges are different. I'm not sure if she knew my trainer or not!

SillyHorse
May. 31, 2011, 12:54 PM
I once took my arab to a schooling show for dressage-with all the other horses being warmbloods...needless to say, the judge ignored my entire first ride.


You mean you didn't get any scores or comments? Or you didn't like the scores and comments?
Thank you. And at least around here, you'd be hard pressed to find a show, schooling or recognized, that was all warmbloods. (Oh, and one Arab.)

Merche2
May. 31, 2011, 01:34 PM
Try this for rudeness...

A couple of years ago I scribed for a judge who made the following comment to a rider during the walk" lady, you need to move with the horse, you don't need to F***k the horse" :eek: I wanted to ask her....How do you spell that????

Rhiannonjk
May. 31, 2011, 01:46 PM
Hah! I rode with a clinician a few times who got on to me about that a lot, and at one point she slipped and said something to the effect of "ARGH! It's obscene! Stop it!"

MyssMyst
May. 31, 2011, 02:50 PM
Hah! I rode with a clinician a few times who got on to me about that a lot, and at one point she slipped and said something to the effect of "ARGH! It's obscene! Stop it!"

This just made me laugh so hard! Pardon me while I clean the 7up off my keyboard :p

Zoomd
May. 31, 2011, 05:02 PM
Just to share my most disappointing experience from a judge as a rider......I certainly understand the existence of discrimination against the less common dressage horse. I ride a pretty small very loud paint with some Arabian-tail up and all, and compete in upper level events with him. A few years back at a horse trial in dressage at preliminary level, I got the comment in the bottom of "this horse doesn't belong here". Sure, it wasn't a brilliant test, and we got a score in the middle of the pack. Was it really necessary to say that? I was younger and didn't now about the evaluations back then but boy do I wish I did! I've also had a judge comment things like "nice tail" or "nice braids" or other turnout points. On one hand it is good to know they appreciate that extra bit of elbow grease to make my paints tail fully white, but I wish they had given me a little more on my test too!

On the same note, I've had some very good, fair and fantastically analytical judges that really did give me insight on my difficult horse. I should start filling out positive evaluations when appropriate!

GreyStreet
May. 31, 2011, 05:20 PM
I've only had one really negative showing experience in the years since I've started showing dressage. Since I've been competing, I have received some disappointing scores and some great scores - at times I have felt some were too low and some maybe even a bit inflated. But most of the time I have felt all were fair and pretty accurate. I don't show to get a pat on the back, I show to get accurate and (hopefully) unbiased feedback about how my training is coming along. I don't hold sour grapes if I don't do well, because usually it's deserved. And I'm always proud of myself and our hard work when do score well.
The negative experience I had was last year, showing under a well known judge in the community at a horse trial. I was one of the last rides of the day as I was just showing dressage. I had owned my mare for under four months at that time and riding her for three (she was off with an abscess right after I got her). Needless to say, our tests left something to be desired (namely, half halts!). We were fairly tense and speedy, but there were some good moments. I just went for the experience since I hadn't shown off the farm with her yet. I was just proud that I was getting back out there and doing it (was taking some lessons but had no trainer with me at the show).
At any rate, I understand the judge was hot, tired and ready to go home, but she pulled me aside after my second test and pretty much berated my entire ride. She got the sex of my horse wrong, and proceeded to talk about how "he and I" might be great at running around cross country (she assumed we were there to event) but that this was dressage and not a race. Anyone who knows me knows how HARD I am on myself - I tried to politely explain to her that I was working with a trainer and was still getting to know my mare (we were in no way dangerous, just tense and rushy). I have never been talked to like that before by a judge and left the arena in tears.
My dad had driven up three and a half hours that day to come watch me show again for the first time in years, and my SO was there as well. I have NEVER left the arena that upset.

I also wasn't aware at the time that you could fill out evals - however, I did email the show organizer. I hate to say it, but I even felt bad doing that because I am not a complainer. As I said, I typically take my score for what it is and focus on the ride itself. But that whole experience was completely negative and if I hadn't already known the farm owner and how professional she is (and how well run her shows are) I probably would have never considered going back.

I am not someone who picks and chooses their shows based on who is judging, but I would think hard before showing under her again.

But hell, a year later and we're scoring well at First and starting Second, so my MARE and I will be happy to run around the arena some more.

ThreeFigs
May. 31, 2011, 05:32 PM
GreyStreet, I'm lucky that I've never been dressed down by a judge for some of my tests -- and I'm so sorry to hear it happened to you.

Even less-than-stellar presentations deserve considerate judging -- the judge cannot know the whole story when a horse & rider enter the ring. Even the best among us have had a bad ride, a bad day, a test that got blown for an unforseen circumstance...

Glad you're moving onward and upward!

mbm
May. 31, 2011, 05:42 PM
i really think folks need to spend some time learning how judges judge, what they look for etc etc.

i think it is totally within the realm of ok to think a rider /horse should not be there..... and i can pretty much bet that a comment like that has zero to do with breed and everything to do with what was presented in the arena that day.

i think folks are taking things really personally.

Ldbgcoleman
May. 31, 2011, 05:57 PM
I disagree the judges job is to score the test not give commentary on who should or should not be there. Showing is expensive and hours of hard word go into a few short minutes. Its only a snapshot of where a horse and rider are. When you enter the arena you deserve the judges full attention.

mbm
May. 31, 2011, 06:01 PM
so do you think that if a judge sees a horse and rider that is not prepared that they cant make a comment that they were not prepared?

do you think riders should get points for traveling and paying to show?

and just because a judge thinks a rider/horse is not prepared does not mean they didnt pay attention.... they are just giving an opinion - which is after all what you paid for, yes?

atlatl
May. 31, 2011, 06:02 PM
...i think folks are taking things really personally.

I tend to agree. While I have scribed for judges that were pretty direct in their comments, I've never scribed for one that was not rooting for the rider/horse to succeed.

Judging is, imo, pretty much a thankless job and they simply do not get paid enough for me to ever want to go through the training and be a judge. I've audited several sessions of the L program and scribed for L candidates; no thank you! I can't imagine how hard (time, money, studying) the rest of the programs must be.

The best show advice I ever got was to remember that you are getting one person's opinion on that day at that particular moment in time. Another thing to remember is that when you enter a show ring, you are ASKING for that person's opinion, it isn't foisted upon you. Any kind of feedback is a gift; sometimes you get gifts you don't like. What you do with it is up to you.

MyssMyst
May. 31, 2011, 06:27 PM
There is taking things personally, and then there is the judge being unprofessional. Being dressed down by a judge crosses the line into unprofessional. Yes, the horse may not belong there, but there are much more tactful ways of putting it. Heck, I'm sure anyone who has done tech support has dealt with people who have zero business owning a computer. But they are still expectecd to treat them professionally, and with respect.

The feedback is needed, and I appreciate the time my judges take to fill out the form. I am grateful for the fact that they stand there in the cold/rain/heat/sun/wind/all other nasty conditions to give me that feedback. I just request that feedback be delivered as tactfully as possible. If we don't belong in that arena, what can I fix to make me belong?

mbm
May. 31, 2011, 06:34 PM
but myssmyst - judges are not supposed to tell you what you need to do - they can only tell you what they see THAT day. if their opinion is that you were not ready for that test - that is a valid opinion.

mp
May. 31, 2011, 06:35 PM
Another thing to remember is that when you enter a show ring, you are ASKING for that person's opinion, it isn't foisted upon you. Any kind of feedback is a gift; sometimes you get gifts you don't like. What you do with it is up to you.

I agree with the "one person's opinion" part. But the feedback on my test form is only "a gift" if the show is free. ;)

That said, I've never felt that I didn't get my money's worth at a dressage show. I've ridden tests in which I thought the judge was a little stingy and ones that were rather generous (recently, on the same day from the same judge!). But if I didn't want an outside opinion, I'd stay home.

But if a judge dressed me down and told me "your horse doesn't belong here," I'd politely set him/her straight. That kind of feedback is uncalled for.

ToN Farm
May. 31, 2011, 06:49 PM
i think it is totally within the realm of ok to think a rider /horse should not be there..... Me too. I don't think they should have to abide by any rules to soften the blow of their comment about a bad performance. I also don't believe they should be encouraging.

not again
May. 31, 2011, 07:06 PM
I was at dinner years ago with a group of judges and one, Jack le Goff to be exact, told a story on himself. As a young man he had a budding interest in eventing so he got his pony going and entered a horse trials. The dressage test was less than stellar by his own admission, and the judge, a military man (general no less) stood up at the end and told him he would do better if he got a new horse. :eek: Those were the days = bluntness was rather common.:yes:
I was riding a Prix St Georges test and had the count of the four tempis go slightly wrong, and received a "0" which was the standard mark for a mistake in those days. I had not done five changes every fourth stride, but had done 4-4-5-3-4.

GreyStreet
May. 31, 2011, 08:44 PM
Just to be clear, my tests that day were no worse than many others I've seen put in before and after that show. It doesn't mean we weren't prepared to be there - certainly we were tense, and we rushed certain parts of the test, but we were in no way in danger of bolting around the arena - there was no rearing, no bucking, no spooking. I in no way expected a wonderful score or even nice comments - but to be dressed down like that at the end of my rides was definitely uncalled for.

While I recognize that all a judge has to go on is the horse and rider they have before them at that particular moment in time - it's still very disheartening to have someone not just critique - but basically bash - the effort you just put in. Especially when it was not some horrible spectacle and it was readily apparent that we were trying.

I don't need any judge to sugarcoat his or her comments for me. But, I do expect *appropriate* criticism.

dghunter
May. 31, 2011, 10:00 PM
GreyStreet, your story reminded me of my mom's first dressage show. We had an OTTB who I was showing and he was doing quite well. We were just doing the local schooling shows at training level with maybe 6 entries a class. My Mom was just doing the intro tests, which were only walk/trot. My horse was a nervous wreck. The arena was filled with birds, which he'd never experienced. And my mom was a nervous wreck. Not a good combination. The test was AWFUL. I'm not sure they got any of the movements right :no: Horse was clearly stressed out/nervous and just wanted to get out of the ring. At the end of the test my Mom tried and failed to halt. She eventually gave up and started sort of jigging out and the judge started screaming at her to "HALT YOUR HORSE!" As if the judge couldn't notice that horse was not going to stop and was clearly stressed. Mom tried again and couldn't get him to stop so she left. Judge proceeded to scream at my poor mother the whole way out of the arena. Horse was not at all dangerous but just didn't want to walk or halt. Well live and learn :D She got a 26% on the test. We kept it to make us feel better on bad show days :winkgrin:

Rhiannonjk
Jun. 1, 2011, 10:42 AM
I guess the off-breed dressage horse discussion is one for the ages, but I started riding dressage on a non-warmblood, and I tended to get low scores. But I never thought that it was simply because of the breed - I thought that it was because of the poor movement the horse had based on his confirmation (which, coincidentally, was typical confirmation for his breeding).

When I started scribing, I expected to witness all this breed-prejudice. I even heard judges make comments about horses before they came into the arena that I thought were setting the stage for breed prejudice. But I never, ever, have felt that the judge wasn't scoring the rides on those horses consistent with how they were scoring all the other rides that day.

ThreeFigs
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:04 AM
Dittos what Rhiannonjk said.

I've ridden Arabs and Arab crosses -- the first one, many years ago, an Arab cross, was probably NEVER really ready to put in a good performance. My fault as a young, green and over eager rider, not the mare's. Our scores reflected the "unpreparedness". I accepted those scores with grace and humor -- I was just starting out and I enjoyed showing, good or bad.

Years later, I showed a very cool little Arab gelding. I was much better prepared, and this horse had greater aptitude and attitude -- a win/win for me. I never experienced "breed prejudice", though my trainer and I kept expecting it. Scores were always fair and comments generally useful.

True, a judge can opine that a pair is not ready to show and can say so in a diplomatic manner. Comments like "Needs better preparation" or "rider needs to (fill in the blank) to help horse achieve (fill in the blank)" or "Unfortunate disobediences due to (wind blowing down arena letters, judges' tent blowing away, hot air balloon landing in neighbor's pasture, or whatever), Better luck next time!". Any rider who's TRULY not prepared (or having a really bad day) will have that fact reflected in awful scores.

Even a seasoned pair can have their test derailed by unforseen events. Referring to the three examples above -- I've seen all three happen!

Rhiannonjk
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:11 AM
I would be interested to know if the more blunt comments came later in the day. I definitely feel that all judges have their limit, and sometimes those 3-5 pm comments are a little less optimistic than the 9 am ones...

MysticOakRanch
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:11 PM
I believe the vast majority of judges do their utmost best to be fair, objective, and consistent. They are professionals who have put in a lot of money, time, and effort to become judges and to remain educated. Having said that, judges are human, a very few do let personal bias slip in, and ocassionally you do run into one who is not a good professional - at least for that day (I believe anyone can have a bad day). Over the years, my friends and I have compared score sheet comments and have seen a few "less then appropriate" comments. A sampling:

Like a drunk sailor on C-line (this to a junior rider)
Maybe too much impulsion
Read the rule book, this is not a free walk
Learn to make your horse go on the bit
Arabians can't do dressage (that was a schooling show, otherwise it would have gone into USEF!)
Horse too big for petite rider, get a smaller horse

But, when I compare it to all the good comments and feedback we've gotten over the years (realizing EVERYONE can have a bad day and can make mistakes ocassionally), I'd say most judges are doing OK... I have run into a very small number of judges who do exhibit (and even publicly comment on) bias (breed or color - yes, one judge who has come out and said pintos, palominos, and appies are stock horses and can't be scored well), but again, the vast majority are not in that category.

I do wish there was a fair way we could rate judges - but I'm afraid people's personal feelings, lack of education, or sour grapes would falsely color those ratings. Maybe the only way to make it fair would be to require a person upload video of their test, then make their complaints (or praise) known?

ThreeFigs
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:30 PM
MOR, of the above sampled comments, the only ones I'd find "inappropriate" are the last two. JMHO!

Arabians CAN do dressage, despite an individual judge's opinion to the contrary, and as the student of a woman who looks petite on everything but a pony, unless the horse completely ignores its teensy rider, size shouldn't be an issue. I've seen such pairs, but my trainer is strong and effective, in spite of being (probably) the shortest dressage professional in the world.

The first four remarks simply point out a problem in the presentation which may be remedied by further training or minding details.

I think judge's comments cross over the line to "inappropriate" when they become too personal/insulting/obscene.

The judge who expressed bias against color breeds was (is) a well-known and high ranked fellow. Yes, even well-known and highly-ranked judges can hold questionable opinions.

The problem with rating judges is, then only the judges who hand out butterflies and rainbows on the score sheets would be hired. The judges who expect riders to handle the truth will find themselves out of a job and this sport would suffer. I do like the idea about submission of a video. Hopefully, the complainant would carefully study the film before submitting -- asking themselves if the judge was really unfair...

atlatl
Jun. 1, 2011, 02:08 PM
... Like a drunk sailor on C-line (this to a junior rider)


I frequently use the "spending money like a drunken sailor" analogy when talking to my staff who apparently do not understand the concept of a budget. Lately I just point to the picture of my DH in his Navy uniform...

The only comment listed I think is inappropriate is the broad breed generalization about Arabs. If a petite rider is struggling to ride a big horse, there's nothing wrong in pointing that out. Some may even find it a helpful comment; say maybe the trainer who tried to say the same thing to their client.

I am curious if your examples were actual quotes or if you were paraphrasing. I know that sometimes I hear things a little differently than they were actually said. Just wondering.

MysticOakRanch
Jun. 1, 2011, 02:28 PM
I am curious if your examples were actual quotes or if you were paraphrasing. I know that sometimes I hear things a little differently than they were actually said. Just wondering.

Actual quotes - a group of us actually get together regularly and compare tests (and try to bring videos of our rides, good and bad). It is fun and educational - and since we've all either gone through or audited the L program, we all have some level of education. By the way - the Drunken Sailor comment was to a pre-teen kid - so it really offended her mother (and the kid didn't really get the comment)! Why not simply crooked on c-line, or weaving and lacks straightness?

Now, I'm curious - what is too much impulsion? This was not a horse who bucked or did any "airs" movements. I understand over-tempo, too quick, running, etc, but is there really such thing as too much impulsion? Some of the other comments had to be seen in connection with the actual movements to really get that they were innappropriate. I do believe telling someone to "read the rule book" is rude - unless there is something REALLY wrong in the ride (that judge used that comment at least a half dozen times that day, and in all cases, related to "stretch" movements where the horse did not stretch BELOW the point of the shoulder).

Again, in general, I see good feedback from judges - have been showing for years, and have many, many good stories and many favorite judges (and they are not all high scoring judges, just ones that are consistent and give good feedback). I think we often forget how many good, upstanding, professional judges are out there day after day.

Rhiannonjk
Jun. 1, 2011, 02:40 PM
Did you guys watch the video of the "Free walk" and look at the rule book to see if, perhaps, there was any revelation? There is so little time for these things when writing them down - my experience as a scribe with any comment like this would be that it was the rider's second time in the arena, and they were very obviously not even trying to do the right thing, and therefore the judge believes that they don't understand what the movement should be. So what do they have the scribe write? The full definition of the movement, or a note to look up the definition of the movement for the rider's education?

I'm not saying that's the case, or even that it is right, but that is what I would imagine happened.

mjhco
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:29 PM
...By the way - the Drunken Sailor comment was to a pre-teen kid - so it really offended her mother (and the kid didn't really get the comment)! Why not simply crooked on c-line, or weaving and lacks straightness?

... I do believe telling someone to "read the rule book" is rude - unless there is something REALLY wrong in the ride (that judge used that comment at least a half dozen times that day, and in all cases, related to "stretch" movements where the horse did not stretch BELOW the point of the shoulder).

...

1. Some folks are easily offended. This is not a good sport to be involved in if someone is of that ilk.

2. "Read the rulebook". I scribed for a judge that said that a lot. And also said, read the directives. It was a lot faster to write than her trying to write an novel. I also scribed for a judge that had me underline pieces of the objectives and write the comments on each.

99% of the judges I have scribed for truly want to be fair and to help. Sometimes feedback given in less than 8 minutes on 30 minutes may not have all the nice embellishments that some would like to have.

atlatl
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:32 PM
By the way - the Drunken Sailor comment was to a pre-teen kid - so it really offended her mother (and the kid didn't really get the comment)! ...

Wow, where I come from that's a pretty common analogy :D Where in Utah did this take place?? ;) JOKING ALREADY!!


Now, I'm curious - what is too much impulsion?

Passage instead of working trot perhaps? Or would that be too much suspension?


Again, in general, I see good feedback from judges - have been showing for years, and have many, many good stories and many favorite judges (and they are not all high scoring judges, just ones that are consistent and give good feedback). I think we often forget how many good, upstanding, professional judges are out there day after day.
Amen