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Treasmare2
May. 30, 2011, 06:44 AM
This weekend I was listening to a discussion of bending lines and lead changes. One person said hunters ought to change their lead, which I am sure is incorrect, and Eq riders hold the lead. The other person argued opposite. My thought is hunters hold the lead and an Eq rider changes only if they are instructed to do so. What is coreect?

Maya01
May. 30, 2011, 08:52 AM
In Eq, I'd do a lead change, but perhaps in hunters doing a change would just disrupt the flow of the line. Perhaps just try extra hard to get the correct lead on landing.

findeight
May. 30, 2011, 09:05 AM
There is no "correct" lead within a line and Hunters go on with what they landed on to avoid a break in rhythm and step...because that stride with the change IS going to be a different size.

Eq? Depends. If it's 5 strides or less, I'd hold because being even a half stride late or missing a step behind puts you at a disadvantage if you got an honest 3'6" or better spread fence out. Any longer then that you probably want to change. But...riders choice depending on which way they are turning after landing the out fence and how tight that might be.

PonyLady29
May. 30, 2011, 09:57 AM
At WEF I was speaking to a very well known judge with whom I watched the Adult Hunter Classic with (hunter week). There were two bending lines, a 7 and a very long broken 11/12. We were discussing what was preferred and he said in his opinion the 7 should not have a lead change, ride it as a straight line (over shoot and angle the in) and if a rider had a lead change he would deduct points. In the very long line he suggested a lead change because it was so long and an easy swap in the center (to think of riding the two jumps as two singles) would be preferable unless the horse had a rough change then it would be better to hold your lead. He said in the eq he prefers the rider to hold the lead unless it is a very sharp bending line because it shows a level of skill to land and maintain your lead through a bend. It was interesting to hear such a great judges perspective and get some input from him!. Just as a heads up he was not judging just had clients riding in it and I happened to know and sit near him.

findeight
May. 30, 2011, 10:07 AM
BTW, usually if a line is more then 108', which would be 8 strides, you don't see the measurements listed on the course diagram in your average 3' Adult or Child class. At that point you are expected to quit counting and just ride the horse.

I pinned quite well several times with one more then others did when it was 8+ strides because I didn't chase it and held the pace I came in with to the base of the oxer out.

CBoylen
May. 30, 2011, 04:15 PM
It depends on the horse and the line. For hunters, I would say they can change the lead in the line, but not that they should. You would, for instance, let a horse change that clearly wanted to do the change, because making him hold it would not be as smooth, or hold the lead on a horse that didn't have a smooth change because its change would interrupt the flow of the line.
Eq horses, in my understanding, are always supposed to hold the lead.

StrawberryFields
May. 30, 2011, 04:28 PM
I usually try to pick up the lead that I will be turning into so that I don't have to worry about whether or not I should do a lead change. (doesn't always work though, lol....)

Rel6
May. 30, 2011, 06:31 PM
There is no "correct" lead within a line and Hunters go on with what they landed on to avoid a break in rhythm and step...because that stride with the change IS going to be a different size.

Eq? Depends. If it's 5 strides or less, I'd hold because being even a half stride late or missing a step behind puts you at a disadvantage if you got an honest 3'6" or better spread fence out. Any longer then that you probably want to change. But...riders choice depending on which way they are turning after landing the out fence and how tight that might be.

This. I also think that if you are balanced and looking to your next fence, a well tuned bigeq horse is probably going to land on the lead you want. And if your hunters, well then you can just pull the old grab at one side of his mouth and hope he swaps in the air.

jewll27
May. 30, 2011, 07:34 PM
Ive always been told that in a bending line, unless its a really long distance, you should hold your lead or otherwise it will be considered a swap and points will be deducted.

findeight
May. 30, 2011, 08:44 PM
Ive always been told that in a bending line, unless its a really long distance, you should hold your lead or otherwise it will be considered a swap and points will be deducted.

That is correct-there is no "correct" lead in a line but should to stay on the same one you land on. Unless you are that 8+ stride bending line that is really whatever the horse does while you just keep going and hold the pace.

shedllybip
May. 31, 2011, 07:42 AM
A VERY wise trainer (Jennifer Alfano) told me to hold whatever lead you're on. If you change, you've actually lost their focus on the next jump for a split second. Enough time to possibly make the next jump not so perfect.

vxf111
May. 31, 2011, 09:21 AM
That is correct-there is no "correct" lead in a line but should to stay on the same one you land on.

So, can I clarify!?

In hunters, you're on the outside line approaching on the left lead. You jump in and the horse lands on the right lead. He jumps out and either does a change in the corner to the left and lands on the left.

This is scored EXACTLY THE SAME as a horse who approaches the jump on the left lead, lands on the left lead and continues on left lead to the second fence, jumps out and either does a change to the left in the corner or lands left lead.

No difference in score? There is NO preference for being on the "correct" lead through the entire line? Even when it's a straight outside line and quite obviously to be approached on a certain lead and cantered away from on that same lead? No preference for holding that leas through the entire line and the approach/away?

vxf111
May. 31, 2011, 09:22 AM
And my question isn't "what is smarter/better for the horse," because I tend to agree with the advice given that trying to do changes in a line can mess up the distance/quality of jump-- my question is to whether there's a scoring change for the two options.

findeight
May. 31, 2011, 09:45 AM
No difference in score? There is NO preference for being on the "correct" lead through the entire line? Even when it's a straight outside line and quite obviously to be approached on a certain lead and cantered away from on that same lead? No preference for holding that leas through the entire line and the approach/away?

Nope, as long as you stay on the lead you land in on, there is no difference in score.

You CAN get fooled into thinking one got dinged for it though. Say horse comes off a left turn to an outside line on the left lead, lands in the line on the right lead and gets down and out well yet gets a deduction??? It is either for a last stride swap at the base of the oxer out or a drift to one side or the other within the line you can easily miss these unless it's right on front of you. Sometimes you get too wrapped up with the lead and miss a bunch of minor flaws then assume it was the lead too.

But of the horse goes center to center down a normal straight line with no swap within the line or at the base? No difference in score.

DMK
May. 31, 2011, 09:52 AM
No difference in score? There is NO preference for being on the "correct" lead through the entire line? Even when it's a straight outside line and quite obviously to be approached on a certain lead and cantered away from on that same lead? No preference for holding that leas through the entire line and the approach/away?

assuming all lead changes were smooth and effortless and all other things being equal (which in the real world we know they never will be), no difference in score, aka no bonus points for being lucky enough (or having a horse so ring savvy as) to land on the correct lead. You might argue the judge would have a smooth round to watch because of no lead changes, but a good lead change is a thing of beauty to watch, so there is that.

findeight
May. 31, 2011, 10:07 AM
Actually, if you have one ring savvy enough to know he is turning left after the out and stays on the left lead down that line????

You may very well have a heck of a time keeping him off that inside standard as he gets a head start on cutting that upcoming corner. And if they have more then 3 shows in them-they know that corner is coming and they will try to cut it.

There is actually some wisdom in landing into that line on the right lead because it allows a natural right bend that can be held over the out and down to a lead change after that will keep them straight down that line and eliminate that corner cutting/inside drift.

jewll27
May. 31, 2011, 11:42 AM
So, can I clarify!?

In hunters, you're on the outside line approaching on the left lead. You jump in and the horse lands on the right lead. He jumps out and either does a change in the corner to the left and lands on the left.

This is scored EXACTLY THE SAME as a horse who approaches the jump on the left lead, lands on the left lead and continues on left lead to the second fence, jumps out and either does a change to the left in the corner or lands left lead.

No difference in score? There is NO preference for being on the "correct" lead through the entire line? Even when it's a straight outside line and quite obviously to be approached on a certain lead and cantered away from on that same lead? No preference for holding that leas through the entire line and the approach/away?

but this is completely different than a bending line, which is why it seems to always raise a question as to whether changing leads in the middle is considered a swap or not...which was the original question.

findeight
May. 31, 2011, 11:48 AM
Yes, changing leads inside a bending line is considered a swap. For most judges in most situations.

ExJumper
May. 31, 2011, 01:08 PM
Hold the lead. Unless it's some million stride line, which I would consider two single fences and not a bending line.

And yeah, as long as your changes are nice, it makes absolutely no difference at all if you land on your leads or if you have to do a change in every single corner. And it doen't matter what lead you're on when you're cantering through the middle of your line.

CBoylen
May. 31, 2011, 08:48 PM
This is scored EXACTLY THE SAME as a horse who approaches the jump on the left lead, lands on the left lead and continues on left lead to the second fence, jumps out and either does a change to the left in the corner or lands left lead.

Yes.
There are myths about oddball trainers out there who think there is a "correct" lead within the line, but I've never actually met one. You would think there's enough to worry about on course without making up more things to do "wrong". ;)

vxf111
May. 31, 2011, 10:03 PM
Yes.
There are myths about oddball trainers out there who think there is a "correct" lead within the line, but I've never actually met one. You would think there's enough to worry about on course without making up more things to do "wrong". ;)

I have stood on the rail and heard trainers say this. Which is why I asked. I have never had an opportunity to ask a judge, but I've heard trainers say it.

MHM
May. 31, 2011, 11:05 PM
I have stood on the rail and heard trainers say this. Which is why I asked. I have never had an opportunity to ask a judge, but I've heard trainers say it.

Speaking as a judge, for me, there is no correct or incorrect lead inside a straight line.

I don't ever recall working with any judges who had a different opinion on that matter.

ExJumper
Jun. 1, 2011, 07:57 AM
I have stood on the rail and heard trainers say this. Which is why I asked. I have never had an opportunity to ask a judge, but I've heard trainers say it.

These people should find other jobs.