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Credosporthorses
May. 29, 2011, 11:56 PM
As the title says... who has a zangersheide? Im looking for a new horse and have stumbled across some very cute prospects. So Im hoping some one can tell me about their experience with the breed. Temperament, work ethic and such.
Thanks!:)

Stoney447
May. 30, 2011, 01:56 AM
I have a Zangershiede mare who was a former big fences jumper (lvl7+) whom I aquired for breeding purposes.

The interesting thing about Zangershiede when looking at the studbook from the perspective of a "breed" is that it was formed only in 1992. Furthermore, Zangershiede was formed to be an open studbook that focuses primarily on show jumping, and breeding for that sport. As such, you will find that the bloodlines in a Z horse are taken from jumping stock from all of the major registries and that enrollment in that studbook was based off of the fact that the person breeding the horse registered Zangershiede was looking to breed for the jumping sport instead of according to the classical methods of one of the other studbooks.

For instance, my mare is almost 100% Holsteiner. Her mare line is from an important stemm in Holstein and I am taking efforts to breed Holsteiner babies from her, not Zangershiede. This being said, making a comment about temperament, work ethic and other things that some may or may not consider breed specific would not be valid in this case. You would have a much better indication by looking at the breeding of the horse including the sire, and taking special consideration for the mare line, without regard to breed specifically (in fact this would be the better way regardless of breed imo).

What you do know is that the Zangersheide horse mostly will come from bloodlines inclined toward jumping, and that an emphasis would most likely be made to select for traits that are advantageous for that pursuit.

However, you did ask for experience, so I can speak a bit to my own specifically. My mare was born in Argentina and competed through about level 7 (4'6") in Mexico before being imported and competed on the west coast. She is easy to ride in every way, has a great jump, great gaits, and is abounding with presence. She has a high level of trainability and a good work ethic, however she can be sensitive at times. She has talent but boldness I do not think is her forte. While she is very uncomplicated on the flat, she can get excited over fences and needs a reassuring ride. (Looking at the % blood of the specific horse could give you an idea about the thoroughbred athleticism brought into that horse's specific lines as well).

Again, you can glean a lot of information about prospects by looking at their heritage (but always remember that you are ultimatly looking at the horse in front of you, not necissarily what they should be according to paper). Due to the fact that Zangershiede incorporates blood from across the registries (open book) I think that you will be able to ask more specific questions in this way.

vegas01
May. 30, 2011, 08:13 AM
I have an 8 year old gelding that I have had for 3 years that competes as a hunter. He isn't spooky, he has a great brain but needs to work consistently as if he is left to his own devices, he can be fresh. He is a great derby horse but does cart his mother around the adult hunters.

JWB
May. 30, 2011, 08:35 AM
Just a little bit of history....

Belgium originally only allowed breeding for the purpose of agriculture so when they finally did allow the breeding for the purpose of sport, they had no native sport horse base. They imported and bred to the best jumpers available and have created (relatively quickly) three Belgian warmblood registries. They are the BWP, the sBs and Zangersheid.

According to Belgium's agricultural law, all horses approved by one registry are approved in all three registries so you could essentially breed a BWP to an sBs and register it Zangersheid if that was your inclination.

Because they are such an open, diverse stud book drawing from the best the Dutch, French and Germans could provide, they don't have one set "breed type" like you would see in a Holsteiner or Hanoverian but they are nice quality horses bred to jump.

iEquitate
May. 30, 2011, 08:36 AM
Had to chime in here...
I have a 13 year old 17.2hh Zangershiede gelding. His grandfather is Darco, and did the Grand Prix in Europe for a few years before being imported to the U.S. about four years ago. He is honestly a "once in a lifetime" horse.
He is the sweetest thing ever - will lick your face, never kicks, very "polite" (for example, if he accidentally steps on your foot, he will immediately lift his hoof) He is also very versatile - I ride him in the children's/low junior jumpers, my mom rides him once or twice a week just flatting and trail rides, and my sister can do the 3' eq on him occasionally.
He is great on the flat, and extremely enthusiastic about jumping (Therefore, he can get a little strong over fences). I've had him for a little over a year, and he has stopped once. That's it. Seriously, he will jump from ANY distance, even chipping to a 4'6 oxer (and clearing it). I've jumped a few other Zangershiedes, and they all seem to have this mindset.
As the other posts have mentioned, I find that if he gets more than a day or two off, he is very fresh, so he must be worked consistently.
I would rate my experience with Zangershiedes a 10 :D My mother even said that when I outgrow him (:cry:) she wants another "Z horse".

findeight
May. 30, 2011, 08:56 AM
Never owned one but have close friends that have had about 6 of them over the years. Most of them out of Argentina where there are several reputable breeders. the rest out of lowland Europe.

Generalities are onerous, especially with that open book, but....they are big, nothing delicate about them, have yet to see one I would use "cute" to describe. The ones out of SA are a little bit lighter-moreTB- but all are absolutely tremendous Jumpers. Some of them have the Z after their names (like Retina Z), some don't, suppose it depends on where they come from. All the ones I know were/are Jr/AO Jumpers, one gal dabbled a bit in the Hunters but it was alot better in the Jumpers.

I don't know what OP is looking for so no idea of it will suit her for her purposes or not. But if she wants a Jumper to go on with, that would be a good choice. If she wants a easy, quiet puddle Jumper or Hunter-probably not.

RyuEquestrian
May. 30, 2011, 09:14 AM
Zangersheide is not a breed of horse, but a registry. Their horses are composed of essentially Dutch, Holsteiner, French and Belgian blood.

For instance, we have a Zangersheide registered mare who is primarily Dutch and Holsteiner bred.

Beethoven
May. 30, 2011, 09:48 AM
We have on here. He is a big goof ball. I do agree 1 day off a week for him is plenty. He is really into biting hair, but I think thats just him.:lol:

As everyone else said, they are a mix of breeds. The one we have here is big and thick and makes the ground rumble when he canters. That said he jumps well. He is more of a jumper/eq than hunter, but has done all 3.

He is a cool horse. I have met quite a few and they are all nice horses, but all kinda different body type wise.

Credosporthorses
May. 30, 2011, 10:31 AM
Thank you everyone for your input. Yes I am awear it is an open registery the two I'm looking at are essentially holsteiner. I also am planning to use the horse as a jumper only. Hunters really aren't my forte and I have unfortunately aged out of the worthwhile eq and medals (at least in my area)

MHM
May. 30, 2011, 01:23 PM
Aren't the ones named with a Z on the end (like Ratina Z) supposed to be from the original farm in Belgium? I thought I heard that in the past.

I toured the farm in Belgium some years ago. Amazing place!!! They've produced some fantastic horses, that's for sure. :cool:

Stoney447
May. 30, 2011, 03:27 PM
Aren't the ones named with a Z on the end (like Ratina Z) supposed to be from the original farm in Belgium? I thought I heard that in the past.

I toured the farm in Belgium some years ago. Amazing place!!! They've produced some fantastic horses, that's for sure. :cool:

After looking this up on the Zangershiede website, since I was incorrect also.....

In order to register any foal Zangersheide, the name requires the Z at the end.

"The name of the foal should start with the first letter of its sire and cover 16 positions at a maximum, including spaces and compulsory Z-suffix."

This is directly off of the website at
http://www.zangersheide.com/en/registreren_veulens.php

findeight
May. 30, 2011, 03:33 PM
My mare has a Z on the end and is from Argentina. I think the Z suffix may have more to do with the fact that they were bred by the registry directly. Z has a large breeding operation in Argentina in addition to their European interests.

That is what I thought...and some of the Argentina ones I know have Z and some of the European ones don't. So that does make sense, it's the breeder.

Stoney447
May. 30, 2011, 03:36 PM
That is what I thought...and some of the Argentina ones I know have Z and some of the European ones don't. So that does make sense, it's the breeder.

I thought it too, but I looked it up and it wasn't right. I had been told that the Z had to do with the breeder, and that might have been the case in the past, but it looks as if they are now wanting to require all registered stock to hold a Z in the name. I don't know if this is a new requirement or not.

DRSsporthorses
May. 30, 2011, 06:01 PM
We are members of Studbook Zangershiede and it is specifically a showjumping studbook and registry. To have the Z behind the name the horse must be registered as a foal and must be sired by a stallion approved by a studbook recognized by the World Breeding Federation for Sporthorses (WBFSH). Upon registry the foal will be issued a Zangershiede passport.

Z also conducts stallion approvals seasonally and foals sired by Z approved stallions are automatically eligible for registry. Who actually bred the horse is completely irrelevant as is country of birth. Don't have any experience with the Argentine-bred horses, but I'm assuming that they have been registered as foals directly with Zangersheide in Belgium and have been issued Z passports from the Belgium base.

We currently have a Zangersheide gelding (Chellano Z/King of Diamonds), and most of the ones I have been familiar with have definitely not been huge in any way. Ours is 16.1 on the dot, a very blood horse, and was bred in Ireland. He is a jumping freak...and I mean that in a good way. He has a great temperament and very good ground manners. Never ever touches a pole.

Liked him so much we just covered a mare today to Taloubet Z.

The studbook in general has been fantastic to deal with on all accounts. We can't say enough good things about them. They are consistently helpful and friendly and offer assistance anytime you need it.

Sparky
May. 30, 2011, 07:58 PM
We also had one by Chellano Z . He is branded on the right hip which I thought was odd, and really, I considered him a Dutch warmblood. Wonderful horse, not a great mover but great, stylish jumper and stunning to look at. He belongs to an 11 year old child now and he takes his duties with her very seriously! I'd buy another one in a heartbeat.

sansibar
May. 31, 2011, 07:54 AM
I only rode one Zangershiede last week in Europe, he was a big and lovely stallion. Fabulous temperament, heart of gold, however his jumping ability was nothing to write home about. I also rode another one here in Canada and it was a similar story.

I think it is hard to judge by the breed for these horses, as each horse is different, and you need to judge the individual horse. Especially since horses can be bred as one breed but registered as another. For me as the week went on I learned it isn't so much the breed of the warmblood to look at rather where it comes from Germany vs. Holland vs. Belgium, because of the training styles and the type of horse they are breeding, if you are looking at imports.

I say go see them in person and make a decision that way, because every horse is truly different even if they are bred almost the exact same way. From what I have seen with the breed they seem to have hearts of gold.

faraway46
May. 31, 2011, 05:37 PM
Zangersheide is not a breed of horse, but a registry. Their horses are composed of essentially Dutch, Holsteiner, French and Belgian blood.

For instance, we have a Zangersheide registered mare who is primarily Dutch and Holsteiner bred.

It is not a breed but a registry. Z breeding stock must be approved at their inspection and have had a strong, successful, competitive jumper resume to be added (if not inspected as a foal, obviously).
It is interesting to point out that Mr. Melchior started this registry not only based on jumper ability but also on it's breeding stocks' health: he wanted to create a registry where the horses had not only athletic background but a functional one, too, hoping that if he bred mares with good competitive longevity with stallions of the same caliber, it would give him great show horses with long competitive careers. I don't know now days where that has gone but if one thing is certain, they have great conformation helping avoid injuries due over stressing flawed points.

faraway46
May. 31, 2011, 05:55 PM
...and they are great. Must admit the blood type and interesting personalities. They seem to be very smart, observant and willing (if treated correctly). They are not heavy type at all and I have seen of all different heights (both of mine were on the smaller side, 16.1h and 16, but both were very light and athletic. To put it in a nutshell: they are jumping machines.
Here are videos of both:
Quantos Z (Quadanne (Quick Star) x Impression (Lucky Boy):
http://www.youtube.com/user/vivifranza#p/u

ADC Quantas Z (Quality Touch (Quick Star):
http://www.youtube.com/user/vivifranza#p/u/16/zwhMokJQX6Y

There's an Argentine Z farm which is run by Marlene Melchior and her husband Ricardo Kierkergaard. They auction their foals to 3y.o. once a year and you can find astonishing young stock. Great dams and stallions, just like in Europe but at a better price. They do inspections and brand them with the famous Z, too.

mvp
May. 31, 2011, 11:12 PM
I think about the history and organization of breed associations/registries, so I'm digging this thread.


It is not a breed but a registry. Z breeding stock must be approved at their inspection and have had a strong, successful, competitive jumper resume to be added (if not inspected as a foal, obviously).
It is interesting to point out that Mr. Melchior started this registry not only based on jumper ability but also on it's breeding stocks' health: he wanted to create a registry where the horses had not only athletic background but a functional one, too, hoping that if he bred mares with good competitive longevity with stallions of the same caliber, it would give him great show horses with long competitive careers. I don't know now days where that has gone but if one thing is certain, they have great conformation helping avoid injuries due over stressing flawed points.

I love the emphasis on performance testing. But that's a no-brainer to European registries. Are you saying this Melchior placed far more emphasis on the mare's performance than anyone else had to date?

And how does Zangersheide continue to keep the performance criterion at the front as they start to build bloodlines contained within their studbooks?

If y'all want to see How It Should Be Done, check out dairy cattle breeding. They started getting their act together with respect to performance testing in the 1880s. As I understand it, the Holstein-Friesian Association was founded in the US in 1887 *on the condition* that an Advanced Registry (performance testing for cows) was included in organizational plan. Well-organized performance testing, in turn, laid the foundation for progeny testing. What they have now as far as a way to do quality control in breeding is stunning. For many reasons, horses won't ever match it.

Oh, and in other Obscure History, check out Denmark as a very early (1890s-1910s) leader in this kind of system, too. By all accounts, Denmark's agricultural organization rocked.

MHM
May. 31, 2011, 11:23 PM
And how does Zangersheide continue to keep the performance criterion at the front as they start to build bloodlines contained within their studbooks?

When I visited the farm in Belgium some years ago, they had a very specific routine in place. They would set up a jumping chute, and chase the babies over a couple of jumps once a month from the time they were pretty young. They kept records of every session to see which ones showed an aptitude for it, and how much they improved, so by the time the horses were 2 or 3 years old, the people there had a pretty good idea what they had.

At that point, they would often breed the most promising mares, so they might get a baby or two out of them before they were even started under tack.

I don't know if they still do it the same way, or how their system compares to other breeders in Europe, but I was pretty impressed!

risingstarfarm
May. 31, 2011, 11:32 PM
I've owned a couple of "Z" horses and I think they are wonderful.

Respect Z - a mare from Argentina, was a showjumper. She was linebred Rebel IZ on top and TB on the bottom.

My stallion Valentino Z is an interesting story. He is actually foal registered BWP. He was born "Tarco du Marais DD". He's by Darco, out of a mare by Feo. He was purchased by Mr. Melchior when he was 5 or 6. His name was changed to Valentino Z. He was ridden by Judy Ann Melchior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZkmRWopQNw

V eventually was sold to the US and I was lucky enough to get him a couple of years ago.

So, Zangersheide is a registry that is open to performance horses. Over the years, Mr. Melchior acquired a number of exceptional jumpers and either added a "Z" to their name or changed their names entirely to incorporate their bloodlines into his program. It should be noted that he did breed a number of outstanding jumpers as well.

Edited to add that Z does focus on eliminating health issues from the breeding stock. For example, OCD is one issue that Z is attempting to eliminate from the genetic pool.

faraway46
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:03 AM
I think about the history and organization of breed associations/registries, so I'm digging this thread.



I love the emphasis on performance testing. But that's a no-brainer to European registries. Are you saying this Melchior placed far more emphasis on the mare's performance than anyone else had to date?

And how does Zangersheide continue to keep the performance criterion at the front as they start to build bloodlines contained within their studbooks?

If y'all want to see How It Should Be Done, check out dairy cattle breeding. They started getting their act together with respect to performance testing in the 1880s. As I understand it, the Holstein-Friesian Association was founded in the US in 1887 *on the condition* that an Advanced Registry (performance testing for cows) was included in organizational plan. Well-organized performance testing, in turn, laid the foundation for progeny testing. What they have now as far as a way to do quality control in breeding is stunning. For many reasons, horses won't ever match it.

Oh, and in other Obscure History, check out Denmark as a very early (1890s-1910s) leader in this kind of system, too. By all accounts, Denmark's agricultural organization rocked.

I have no idea if the performance priority was being done in other breeds/registries (I'm not a breeder so I don't know much about the subject, just Zangersheide because of having bought a couple of their horses). I do know that they will accept a horse if they can produce a more than good performance resume and have what it takes to get approved. Even if they are World Champions, they will not accept a horse with conformation flaws. Neither will they accept a beautiful horse that has a poor performance record. So both performance and approval (gaits, conformation, etc) are just as important.
I'm not familiar with how cow selecting works, but if it's been successfully around for that long, it must be doing something right! :winkgrin:

JazCreekInc.
Jun. 1, 2011, 12:39 AM
faraway46- I have a Quadanne as well... I LOVE him.
He is kind of a big goofball (my friend worked for Lucho for many years and said he is one of the largest Quadanne offspring he has seen, a heavy 16.3) but talented and a great brain... just a little slow to pull it all together.

I love seeing more of them as there are not too many in the US to watch!

moonriverfarm
Jun. 1, 2011, 08:52 AM
faraway - I LOVED the second video. Loved the ponytail as opposed to the typical "hunter hair" we see here and also the helmet. Oh and the stunning jump round and very TB looking pony weren't too bad either :winkgrin:

faraway46
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:20 AM
faraway46- I have a Quadanne as well... I LOVE him.
He is kind of a big goofball (my friend worked for Lucho for many years and said he is one of the largest Quadanne offspring he has seen, a heavy 16.3) but talented and a great brain... just a little slow to pull it all together.

I love seeing more of them as there are not too many in the US to watch!

Yes, they are great but as you wrote, they take their time. They all settle down when they are around 7. Before that, they might be stubborn or highly sensitive. Most of them are tricky in their earlier years. Quadanne has that temper: he is very willing but you have to ask nicely. Most of them are not huge but muscular, with much power and scope and somewhat downhill (longish back at times). Usually they have tricky mouths that need some "wits and bits" to sort out.

There is one up and coming star Lucho has now which is a son of Quadanne: El Porvenir Question (remember that name!). If Lucho has the patience (which he usually doesn't) to bring him along and bond, he is a world class horse with huge structure, scope and bravery. This is a vid of the horse with his previous owner when he started showing:
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKvg9RF8GGI&feature=related

I rode at Lucho's farm for over two years. I am curious to know who your friend is. We probably know each other!

faraway46
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:27 AM
faraway - I LOVED the second video. Loved the ponytail as opposed to the typical "hunter hair" we see here and also the helmet. Oh and the stunning jump round and very TB looking pony weren't too bad either :winkgrin:

Thank you! I, on the other hand, admire how neat hunter riders keep their hair in their helmet. I would love to do the same but I am not very nimble with hair nets: they keep getting tangled with my buttons or the helmet latch every time I try to wear one...so I gave up and settled for a "sauvage" look (it's the jumpers...we can get away with murder... :winkgrin: )

Quantas is a doll: very light and loves her job. She is a pleasure to work with.

JazCreekInc.
Jun. 1, 2011, 11:44 AM
Daniel Zilla is my friend who was there, he is in CA now at KC Branscomb's breeding farm doing an amazing job with some very nice young horses.

Here is a pic of my Quadanne at Sacramento International in the 1.20's:

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa356/jazcreek/?action=view&current=ScannedImage093560000.jpg

What a small world :)

Tegan
Jun. 1, 2011, 01:11 PM
I have a lame one! Fell in a hole when he was young and tore his DDFT.

He is cold and incredibly stocky... looks like a draft cross. I don't think he was the Zangersheide breeding farm's best creation, but he could JUMP! He had really excellent style o/f and probably would have gone far if he wasn't injured. He's very friendly and absolutely bombproof. Work ethic on the flat left some things to be desired, but once he was jumping, he was very easy to ride.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v150/Hyperion280/My%20Horses/alivejump.jpg
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1299375109061920521NkFRlN


I have seen really gorgeous, talented Z horses, and some that I wouldn't look twice at. Like any registry, there are the great ones and the average ones. I do have to say, all of the Z horses I've met have had good temperaments.

Sparky
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:27 PM
This is Charmeur Z, a 2001 gelding that we bought in the Netherlands as a just started 4 year old. This photo is the green conformations in Ocala.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30281885&l=5e5d901f78&id=1491799817

Sparky
Jun. 1, 2011, 03:30 PM
And one more (I love this guy!)


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30281886&l=bdfa0bc4e1&id=1491799817