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AllWeatherGal
May. 24, 2011, 02:24 PM
This information needs to get to the USEF!!

If you are a USEF member and have a comment, complaint, or praise about any licensed official at a show, PLEASE complete a confidential evaluation form and send it to the USEF.

Also, take a moment to provide feedback about your experience to show organizers.

We have no one to blame but ourselves if we complain on a message board but don't take advantage of official channels of communication to help bring about changes.

The forms should be available at shows or you can get it here: http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/LicOffEvaluation.pdf.

I know that compliments are forwarded to judges (without a name attached) because from time to time judges have told me that they've received them. I believe complaints are recorded. They may also be forwarded and nobody wants to admit it.

Janet adds:
I have been led to believe (don't know if it true or not) that if a judge receives two or more negative comments on basically the same thing, the judge will be contacted and informed of the gist of it, though they will not see the actual comments.

When it is time to renew a judge's license, I think the LOC reads everything in the judge's file.

(This is based on a reply I made elsewhere that I'm reposting because I think this information may be useful to folks who aren't following that particular thread (here: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305692).)

atlatl
May. 24, 2011, 02:56 PM
Could you provide a link to the other thread please?

Petstorejunkie
May. 24, 2011, 03:30 PM
link doesn't load

Velvet
May. 24, 2011, 03:35 PM
Are we talking about a real show? Or is this because of the other conversation about judging as a whole, based on the article?

joiedevie99
May. 24, 2011, 03:55 PM
I think it's referring to post #9 (and others) on the Sally O'Connor thread.

MeghanDACVA
May. 24, 2011, 04:02 PM
FWIW, the judge was NOT Sally.
And yes, an evaluation was filled out and sent to the appropriate parties.

AllWeatherGal
May. 24, 2011, 04:02 PM
Petstorejunkie (link doesn't load ) ... not sure how to help. It loads for me. This is the URL again: http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/LicOffEvaluation.pdf (the message board does not allow the URL without formatting)

Velvet (Are we talking about a real show? Or is this because of the other conversation about judging as a whole, based on the article? ) ... A real show. The form requires a competition name and date. It was in response to someone commenting about bad judging (by an unnamed judge) on the Sally O'Connor thread.

atlatl (Could you provide a link to the other thread please? ) ... please see first post which has been edited to include a referral to the Sally O'Connor thread.

joiedevie99 (I think it's referring to post #9 (and others) on the Sally O'Connor thread.) ... thanks

AllWeatherGal
May. 24, 2011, 04:05 PM
FWIW, the judge was NOT Sally.
And yes, an evaluation was filled out and sent to the appropriate parties.

Awesome :)

MeghanDACVA
May. 24, 2011, 04:05 PM
Oh, and FWIW, the judging itself was quite good. The judge was actually far kinder than I would have been to me. It was nice that they didn't nail the entire movement for a fooble that was only a stride or 2 but rather scored the good and the bad of it together. And the scores definitely reflected that. Which was refreshing after mostly seeing scores and comments that only reflect the mistake made and no credit or comment regarding what was done right the other 90% of the movement.

Rhiannonjk
May. 24, 2011, 04:36 PM
Looking at the form, it appears that (since it is anonymous) it can be completed by anybody - is that the intention, or does anybody know more about this?
For example, if I scribed for a judge and had comments, should I fill one out? (I don't usually scribe at USEF recognized shows, so this is a very hypothetical question - if I have feedback on a judge at a schooling show, I give it to the show manager)

If you are a USEF member grooming for a friend, and recognize something (positive, negative, whatever), should you still report it?

In other words, should these forms be used by competitors only, or should any observer fill them out?

MeghanDACVA
May. 24, 2011, 05:17 PM
The USEA form (which I used since I event) asks you if you were competitor, volunteer, groom, owner, volunteer, etc.

ACP
May. 24, 2011, 05:25 PM
For example, if I scribed for a judge and had comments, should I fill one out? (I don't usually scribe at USEF recognized shows, so this is a very hypothetical question - if I have feedback on a judge at a schooling show, I give it to the show manager)

Yes, if you scribe and you have a comment - it doesn't have to be a bad thing, it could be praise - pass it along. I once ran a show which was a USEF/USDF approved dressage show. The judge was warned that it would be mostly kids and AA and probably all either Intro or Training Level, but apparently she forgot. She turned to the scribe and said, "Here comes yet another fat middle aged woman down the centerline. She has no business trying to show."

The scribe reported her for this. If you see or hear anything like this, please do report it.

Also, most judges at schooling shows have some sort of credentials. If the judge is a USDF "L" Program graduate, your comment should go to USDF. If the judge is a USEF judge, even at a schooling show, your comments can go to both USDF and USEF.

Rhiannonjk
May. 24, 2011, 05:38 PM
Oh, that's very good to know.

And if I heard the "Fat middle-aged woman" comment, it might cause me to completely loose my cool. I scribed for one judge who had a great reputation, but seemed to be in a completely sour spell for the day, and at least had a conversation with the show manager afterward about the general "Tone" of the show as a result. There were times where she told me to write something, and I wanted to just say "No."

MYalterID
May. 24, 2011, 05:43 PM
I did over hear a woman at the most recent show complaining to the show manager that a judge had made a comment about her lips :confused: and made the case that how could she have been watching that specific movement if she was looking at her mouth. The manager asked her if she wanted to file a complaint and the woman declined, saying it's not that big of a deal. I don't know about some, but it's a pretty big deal when I drop $400+ on a weekend show and get comments that have nothing to do with the test I'm riding...

AllWeatherGal
May. 25, 2011, 10:02 AM
Yes, if you scribe and you have a comment - it doesn't have to be a bad thing, it could be praise - pass it along. ...

I have to say that I definitely let show management know if I have high praise or serious concern about a judge, *and* I would respond to a judge's unkind remark made privately to me in the judge's booth with a mild reminder such as "Well, yes, but in this area we don't often have the opportunity to get feedback from someone of your caliber and I imagine they're are looking forward to your professional evaluation."

But I wouldn't write a report to the USEF about a judge from my "private" knowledge as a scribe. It feels like breaking a confidence.

dressurpferd01
May. 25, 2011, 01:18 PM
I did over hear a woman at the most recent show complaining to the show manager that a judge had made a comment about her lips :confused: and made the case that how could she have been watching that specific movement if she was looking at her mouth. The manager asked her if she wanted to file a complaint and the woman declined, saying it's not that big of a deal. I don't know about some, but it's a pretty big deal when I drop $400+ on a weekend show and get comments that have nothing to do with the test I'm riding...

I was hoping someone would bring up that episode, it got spread pretty far around the showgrunds that day. The comment was enclosed in a handwritten box by the judge and was to the effect of "did you know you lick your lips constantly when you ride". Completely inappropriate comment, and I wish she would have filed a formal complaint about it.

SmartAlex
May. 25, 2011, 01:35 PM
The comment was enclosed in a handwritten box by the judge and was to the effect of "did you know you lick your lips constantly when you ride". Completely inappropriate comment, and I wish she would have filed a formal complaint about it.

Well, I don't have a dog in this fight since I don't show dressage, but I think if I was making a face or something similar that was awful enough to distract the judge enough for her to make a comment about it, I'd kind of like to know. Some of these things can affect your ride. I mean if breathing can then couldn't tenseness that surfaced in constant lip licking also?

Maybe the rider should tie her tongue LOL!

AllWeatherGal
May. 25, 2011, 02:58 PM
and made the case that how could she have been watching that specific movement if she was looking at her mouth. ... and get comments that have nothing to do with the test I'm riding...

Couple of observations from my experience watching judges and my own lessons.

1. "Did you know that ..." is a question more than criticism and if it was in a hand-written box, I think it was meant to be helpful rather than catty or insulting.

2. Judges really CAN see the entirety of what's going on in front of them. That's how they can see what's going on with the horse's mouth, the rider's hands, the horse's legs, and the rider's seat. Licking one's lips could be VERY distracting and have caught the judge's attention as she was assessing a cause for tension somewhere.

I purse my lips. A lot. My new instructor believes the tension in my mouth affects the entire "system" of horse and rider. I'm glad someone pointed out this habit of mine, and happier that it's my instructor at home rather than a judge at a show, but still ... you can't address what you don't know about.

quietann
May. 25, 2011, 03:35 PM
I was hoping someone would bring up that episode, it got spread pretty far around the showgrunds that day. The comment was enclosed in a handwritten box by the judge and was to the effect of "did you know you lick your lips constantly when you ride". Completely inappropriate comment, and I wish she would have filed a formal complaint about it.

Actually, I think it's good that the judge pointed it out. When I was a kid, whenever I jumped I stuck my tongue out, clenched between my teeth, until the day something went very very wrong and I bit my tongue! Yes, my instructor had pointed it out to me, but it was a hard habit to break. Lip-licking could lead to a similar outcome...

flash1
May. 26, 2011, 12:39 PM
I did the same thing ( sticking the tongue out) and didnt beleive it until someone showed me a video... I would want to know if I was doing something very distracting...

atlatl
May. 26, 2011, 12:54 PM
Babe Ruth allegedly gave away his pitch by sticking his tongue out ...

I don't think the lip licking comment was that bad.

When scribing, I've frequently heard pretty snarky comments by judges which were not intended to be part of the score or test sheet comments. It's pretty easy to tell if they want it written down based on when it's said. One would actually preface real comments with "write this down".

My personal fave is "You could have been disqualified for taking too long to start your test after the bell. I am being kind".

Wrote that one several times at that show.


Other, less than kind comments from judges, some of them big names: sigh, why does every over weight middle aged woman think they can do dressage? Riders must be athletes!, Too bad for this rider to have to follow that wonderfully forward horse with this horse. Oh my, are we safe here?, Is that supposed to be an extension? Now, what do you suppose that is?(regarding the breed of the horse)

Judges are just human like the rest of us. I think the side comments said in the presence of scribes should stay in the judging booth.

Velvet
May. 26, 2011, 01:04 PM
Velvet (Are we talking about a real show? Or is this because of the other conversation about judging as a whole, based on the article? ) ... A real show. The form requires a competition name and date. It was in response to someone commenting about bad judging (by an unnamed judge) on the Sally O'Connor thread.



I know when they're to be used, just wasn't sure why it was started (meaning what it was referencing since it had that title and then didn't give up details it just pointed everyone to the rec. show judge compliant/comment form).

:)

kris0227
May. 26, 2011, 01:18 PM
Other, less than kind comments from judges, some of them big names: sigh, why does every over weight middle aged woman think they can do dressage? Riders must be athletes!, Too bad for this rider to have to follow that wonderfully forward horse with this horse. Oh my, are we safe here?, Is that supposed to be an extension? Now, what do you suppose that is?(regarding the breed of the horse)

Judges are just human like the rest of us. I think the side comments said in the presence of scribes should stay in the judging booth.

Human... yes... But just because you're a human, doesn't mean you don't need to act like a professional in a situation where you are being paid for a professional opinion. I'm sorry, but if I scribed for a judge and they were that catty, immature, and unprofessional, I would absolutely report them. Those types of comments also tend to point towards a bias in the judging.
Having a personal opinion is one thing, stating it, is completely different.

ACP
May. 26, 2011, 01:44 PM
I have scribed a lot, for many different judges, and my overall impression of them is that they want the horse and rider to do well. Really want that. Frequently I've had one of them say something like "Oh my," or "Oh, dear," when it was obvious the rider was going to be lucky to live through the test. I have heard very little breed prejudice. There have been a few, "I wonder why she chose that horse," in reference to a horse that even I could see would be better off cutting cows or doing fine harness classes. But that sort of remark hasn't been said in a snide tone, more a puzzled one.

The most sticky situations, such as a horse bolting, bucking, balking, have always resulted in genuine sympathy. Once, when a YR's horse refused to even get near A to enter the ring, and the rider's mother and coach both started to yell contradictory advice, and both were giving the WRONG advice, the judge muttered, "No wonder the child can't do well, with that pair to help her."

My biggest issue is snark remarks about a rider's weight. Do you think the exhibitor doesn't know she/he is overweight? Perhaps trying to train, ride and show will motivate her/him to loose weight, and get more fit. Perhaps the person has a medical reason; they do exist.

My second biggest issue isn't just with judges, but with coaches, trainers, show managers and upper level, elite riders. Not everyone is going to go up the ladder and do Grand Prix. Some of us will be lucky based on money, time, family support, athletic ability, etc., to every get out of First Level. A little more friendly encouragement wouldn't hurt, and it would make the beginner, the middle aged plump women, the I'm eating PB&J to afford a horse rider, all feel a little more included. There have been times when I've felt that all the 'mean girls' I went to school with grew up and got into dressage. If you ARE capable at what you do - coach, train, manage a show, ride a big horse - what do you gain by putting others down? Is your ego that fragile?

good booie
May. 26, 2011, 02:53 PM
Did you show a couple weeks ago in Conyers by any chance. Heard one of the judges there had so many scratches her ring eneded hours early.

oldenmare
May. 26, 2011, 03:49 PM
Just two weeks ago here, there was a licensed show where the organizer couldn't get the judge from the airport, so one of the competitor's mother (with child in tow), picked up the judge, gave him a tour of the city, took him to dinner.....

The next day at the show, the child of this parent ends up getting the high score and award for that level.

Now - maybe child earned. Maybe not. Point is - will always be an area of speculation for many (particularly those who know the mother/child) because of the circumstances.

Regardless, Judge should not have allowed child to ride for him - show mgmt should have known better given the circumstances. Wonder if any complaints were filed on that one.

Calhoun
May. 26, 2011, 04:16 PM
I have scribed a lot, for many different judges, and my overall impression of them is that they want the horse and rider to do well. Really want that. Frequently I've had one of them say something like "Oh my," or "Oh, dear," when it was obvious the rider was going to be lucky to live through the test. I have heard very little breed prejudice.


I've scribed a lot also and feel the same way. If there was one issue which reoccurs on a regular basis with judges is the idea of self-importance. Frankly I'm a little surprised at the attitude some judges have, a few I've scribed for could be a little more down to earth. This isn't judging for a Nobel Peace Prize.

tm
May. 26, 2011, 05:08 PM
Just two weeks ago here, there was a licensed show where the organizer couldn't get the judge from the airport, so one of the competitor's mother (with child in tow), picked up the judge, gave him a tour of the city, took him to dinner.....

The next day at the show, the child of this parent ends up getting the high score and award for that level.

Now - maybe child earned. Maybe not. Point is - will always be an area of speculation for many (particularly those who know the mother/child) because of the circumstances.

Regardless, Judge should not have allowed child to ride for him - show mgmt should have known better given the circumstances. Wonder if any complaints were filed on that one.

My guess is that the judge didn't even recognize the child once said child put on a helmet and got on a horse.

oldenmare
May. 26, 2011, 05:11 PM
tm

In most cases, probably. This child is, however, quite distinctive and not easily lost in a crowd, much less a crowd of riders.

om

Rhiannonjk
May. 26, 2011, 05:46 PM
I just want to clarify that, as a scribe (and in most parts of my life) I don't care if there is confidential snark in the judge's booth. But when the judge is asking me to write things down that I feel are outright mean, or unnecessary, I would consider reporting it. If I were not asked to write it down, I consider that it never happened ;)

Jo
May. 27, 2011, 11:46 AM
My best friend is the rider who was given the "lip licking" comment on her test. We have watched the professional video NUMEROUS times, specifically looking for instances of this, and have seen NOTHING to support her comment.

I was there for both her tests and was appalled at the "boxed in" comments on her tests. I have alerted her to this thread.

AllWeatherGal
May. 27, 2011, 01:14 PM
My best friend is the rider who was given the "lip licking" comment on her test. We have watched the professional video NUMEROUS times, specifically looking for instances of this, and have seen NOTHING to support her comment.

I was there for both her tests and was appalled at the "boxed in" comments on her tests. I have alerted her to this thread.

It must be very discouraging to get called out on something that didn't exist. With this additional information, I think I would have completed a competitor feedback form after seeing for myself in the video that the comment was not based in fact.

But that's the whole (original) point of the thread -- if you don't want to make a fuss with the show manager or TD, you can still communicate your thoughts and experiences by way of a confidential form.

dressurpferd01
May. 27, 2011, 02:51 PM
My best friend is the rider who was given the "lip licking" comment on her test. We have watched the professional video NUMEROUS times, specifically looking for instances of this, and have seen NOTHING to support her comment.

I was there for both her tests and was appalled at the "boxed in" comments on her tests. I have alerted her to this thread.

I hope she pops in here. I was stable just down the row from y'all. I would be almost tempted to spend the money and file an official complaint with USEF/USDF (not sure who those go to), and get this crap on the record. I heard from a lot of other people at that show that this particular judge has a history of off-the-wall behavior and comments on tests at shows.

Sandy M
May. 27, 2011, 03:02 PM
I scribed for a judge once (and he was an R judge, but it was a schooling show he was judging as a favor). He had a somewhat perverse sense of humor, but at least he'd always specifically say "don't put that on the test" if he made some negative/humorous aside.

One gal had a very strung out, chubby mixed breed horse, but she did do a very straight entry, even if the halt was not exactly square. She also did a very snappy salute. He gave her a "6 straight," then said, "She may not be able to do much else, but she does a nice salute. - Don't write that!" As the horse waddled around the ring, he commented, "Why don't we just hitch up a harrow and get the arena manicured while we're at it." Again, a "don't write that!" And so on for the rest of the day. His scores were fair and not severe, but he could NOT resist the little semi-nasty comments. Sigh.

rna2495444
May. 27, 2011, 03:19 PM
I am the one who got the "lip licking" comment on her test. We did watch the professional video and really couldn't see any unusual lip activity going on. It has really sunny and windy that day, and maybe my lips were particularly dry but it did seem like a rather odd comment. In the other test that I rode that day, the same judge commented on how she hated my horse's braids- I had braided in one piece of pink yarn into one section of each braid- just a little pink showed in her mane and it matched the pink beads on her browband- done this lots of other times and was told how cute it looked- but this judge said she "would not recommend doing this again". I totally understand dressage is a conservative sport, but I am just an amateur rider who loves her horse and wants to improve my riding, go to some shows, and have lots of fun!

FYI- This is the same judge who left her brochure all around the show grounds promoting her training and showing services.

AllWeatherGal
May. 27, 2011, 03:26 PM
judge commented on how she hated my horse's braids-
<snip>
FYI- This is the same judge who left her brochure all around the show grounds promoting her training and showing services.

It may sound petty, but I definitely would have had things to tell the USEF about this licensed "professional". Braid ribbons just ... not on-topic, IMO, and the brochure litter, likewise.

So sorry you paid money for that.