Market for a "well bred mutt" as a stallion?

[Flying Hearts]

Hi everyone,
I have a weanling colt who I am trying to figure out if I want to leave a stallion or not. Obviously the final decision will be made depending on what he grows into - so far I really like him and think he's stallion material. I really like his build, type, movement, and he's got a sweetheart personality. He is by the pinto Oldenburg Hall Of Fame, and out of my extremely nice Anglo-Trakehner mare (the foal is a solid chestnut, no pinto). She is not approved with any warmblood registries and is just too old to do it now. My question is this, how much of a market is there for a stallion who is a "well bred mutt" in the words of my friend http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He will be registered AWS but nothing else. I know it will depend on his conformation, movement, performance accomplishments, etc... I'm just wondering what kind of market do other American WB stallions who are not registered anywhere else get?

[Flying Hearts]

Hi everyone,
I have a weanling colt who I am trying to figure out if I want to leave a stallion or not. Obviously the final decision will be made depending on what he grows into - so far I really like him and think he's stallion material. I really like his build, type, movement, and he's got a sweetheart personality. He is by the pinto Oldenburg Hall Of Fame, and out of my extremely nice Anglo-Trakehner mare (the foal is a solid chestnut, no pinto). She is not approved with any warmblood registries and is just too old to do it now. My question is this, how much of a market is there for a stallion who is a "well bred mutt" in the words of my friend http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He will be registered AWS but nothing else. I know it will depend on his conformation, movement, performance accomplishments, etc... I'm just wondering what kind of market do other American WB stallions who are not registered anywhere else get?

[Simkie]

As a mare owner:

I want to breed to a stallion who I *know* will throw his type. A "well bred mutt" may or may not throw his type.

Unless he reaches olympic level, I think you will book very few mares.

A nice stallion makes a lovely gelding http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Flying Hearts]

I understand most of what you're saying, but the part about how he might not throw his type I don't see. By mutt, I don't mean random nice horses thrown together who happened to produce this horse, I meant breed wise (TB, Oldenburg, Trakehner). He actually is exactly what I planned and hoped for between his parents - if his dam had been owned by someone who believed in feeding and trimming his horses, she would have been a wonderful horse and I'm positive she would have scored very well at an inspection. It really makes me sad that she sort of wasted her life away and now she is too old to do much and is suffering a few problems because of her former neglect...I really can't say enough good things about this mares conformation, movement, and personality too, and I would really like to keep her line going. (I promise I'm not being one of those 'can't see the faults in your own horse' people hehe - I have other mares I won't breed and have had other colts who I gelded even though they were very decent horses). On the Trakehner side she is by Amiego (who was an incredible horse that also happened to have the same dam as Abdullah).
Haha, ok, sorry to have gone on about her for half an hour! Anyway, I appreciate your response and any others http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Flying Hearts]

[QUOTE] no offense to the AWS or AWR, but neither of them are very highly regarded.
QUOTE]

That's what I was afraid of... I love what they're doing though (at least the AWS, don't know a lot about the AWR) and I hope they keep it up, and keep improving like they have!

[Rubs Not Pats]

The mutt syndrome in warmbloods really doesn't bother me in that most studbooks are open to other approved breeds. Where I get concerned is if a credible studbook, not AWR/AWS and several others will accept your colt once he has fullfilled the requirements of performance testing. If no, then I would say it is way too much trouble to keep him intact and that he should be gelded. I would never consider breeding to an unapproved horse or one approved by questionable "registry".

[Robby Johnson]

I wouldn't breed a mare to him. Sorry! Geld him now and enjoy him as a riding horse!

Robby

[IronwoodFarm]

I second that comment of being unwilling to breed a mare to an unregistered stallion. I am definitely a backyard breeder, but I do breed with consideration of a subsequent sale. Papers do make a difference when it comes your asking price. I doubt you would have many takers.

It does sound like you have a very nice colt. There is much to be said for what quality geldings have to contribute.

[jhodkin]

Mmmmm... interesting thread....

I think the fundamental thing here is two fold:
1. The 'types' of his parents.
2. The liklihood of credible approval/registration.

Point 1 -
If you had crossed a Tb jumping pony with a Cleveland Bay or Irish Draft I would have to say 'forget it'. The spectrum of genes here would be poles apart and you could get a foal that was 15hh or 17.2hh not to mention potentially having disproportiate body parts etc. I think you get my point. If the bloodlines he is bred from are of similar 'type' e.g. TB and trakenher, arab and TB, Hanovarian and Holsteiner etc. the spectrum of genes will be smaller and therefore what he passes will have less variation.

Now let's get real here (and I'm sure this next bit will provoke a few folks - so I apologise now before you rip me to pieces, although I do stand by what I'm about to say !) Many of the warmblood breeds are just a bunch of mutts. If you live near Hanover you can be a Hanovarian, if you live in the Westfalia area you can be a Westfalian.... I could continue. Now admitedly it is a while since it worked quite like that, but the original breeding stock was VERY varied in these breeds. Even today, you just have to look at some stallions bloodlines and the mix of blood is Selle Francais, Holsteiner, Hanovarian etc. you name it ! The fabulous 'Dutch Warmblood' label always raises a smile with me for this very reason. Trakehners are a mix of East Prussian, TB, Arab and Anglo-Arab horses when all's said and done. Just because they have been graded and the approving authority likes the horse's type, it doesn't change the fact that mixing in blood from other breeds introduces elements from all it's ancestors, whether they were true to type or not.

Also, the liklihood is that the person who's breeding to your stallion has a part-bred mare anyway, so they're introducing as much genetic variation as your stallion is! A bit of double standards here I think...

So folks, my point is, let's not get too precious about 'breeds'. Unless you specifically want to breed a 'pure-bred' (I use the term loosely!), what does it matter, if the stallion you want to use fits the characteristics you're looking for and has ancestors which meet the 'type' you're looking for. I breed sporthorses and I look for athletic stallions with bloodlines to match and I couldn't give a rats ass who it happens to be registered with or whether it's a 'pure-bred'. I find the concept of a 'pure-bred' amusing in most of the sporthorse stud books we're talking about here. (Please, Cleveland Bay, Suffolk Punch etc. people who do have a true breed, don't take offence, I am not referring to you).

Point 2:
Stallions need to demonstrate in some way why they will bring improvement to breeding. Just looking beautiful and being registered is not enough in my book. I want to see grading and or performance, and in older stallions, above all else I look for performance in their offspring. To me, I'm buying the stallions offspring, not the stallion itself, so even if he was a mediocre perfomer with a mediocre grading result I would still use him if his offspring were exceptional.

So, if you want to keep this boy entire, you need some independent, objective advice about how good he really is. You also need to decide if you are prepared to put in the work and money required to promote and stand a stallion. Take heart though in the fact that in event horse breeding, the most famous line in the world - the Welton line - is a bunch of cross-breds (with the exception of Apollo), I could add to that list other fabulous stallions like Jumbo, Viceroy, McGuigan, Rock King, Weston Justice etc. etc. etc. Just because your horse is not pure-bred does not automatically mean people will not want to use it. BUT you have to prove it more that you would a pure-bred, because of people's predjudices.

Whilst I am not an advocator of retaining entires if I were you I'd get some help from people who know what they're talking about to help you through your dilemma. Good luck and remember though - you can't stick them back on once you've cut 'em off!!

Julia
Future Sport Horses - Event Horse Breeders (http://futuresporthorses.co.uk)

[STF]

As a mare owner, I am also with Robbie opinion. You gota have super WOW WOW WOW....with great bloodlines on both mare and dam side to even catch most people attention.

Gelding him and have fun with him, IMO.

[camohn]

Been there done that this year. My Arab/WB long yearling colt that was really nice looking and moving was bred "backwards": Arab sire/WB dam, so could not get WB papers. He was so pretty, friendly nice moving...hated to geld him and everyone told me the same thing. I was a week from getting him gelded when a buyer for him intact popped up. He was a pinto 1/2 Arab. She breeds Arabs and he will breed her Arab mares for 1/2 Arab registered foals (although they will be 3/4 Arabs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) . So, it worked out for him but that WOULD be a pretty limited market for you try. So, we try again the other way 'round. He is a very nice looking boy.....so SportArab and I bred the stallion's dam (who is already Old approved) to Grandom and hoping for a black foal again. That pretty much guarantees we're getting a chestnut! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[dbaygirl]

FlyingHearts, can you post a picture of your colt?

[Tiki]

Since he is not registerable with a credible registry, you will have to wait until he is at the FEI level, or equivalent as a hunter, before you start getting mares for him. That's about a 10 year wait while you're pouring money into him to get him to that level. Remember, that with few exceptions, the average APPROVED FOR BREEDING with a credible registry stallion gets only an average of 4 mares a year anyway. Why breed to an unapproved, unproven one. I wouldn't!

[Freehold]

Don't forget, you can always take them off but you sure can't put them back on. Why not keep him intact a while longer, research your options and cut him later if it proves to be something you are not prepared to do. Some breed registries encourage "mixed heritage". For example the Candian Sport Horse Association is working on a developing breed which means that you cannot breed "purebreds" and expect to move up in the stud books. They are well respected here in Canada and seem to be doing well elsewhere. If your boy has quality, proven parentage on both sides there are lots of approval options for him. Just make sure you have proof of parentage (papers) to begin with. Not every registry will be "well respected" along the same lines as ISR/Olds or KWPN, but many have strong mare bases and people looking for quality stallions to breed to. Will you ever have 100s of mare owners flocking to you? Probably not unless your boy is an Olympic contender. Will you be able to produce some high quality sport horses who are desirable to show buyers? Quite possibly. Take your time to make the decision and inthe mean time let him keep his jewels. Just my honest opinion.

[siegi b.]

As a former stallion owner and breeder of those "mutty" warmbloods, I have had several colts that were in the Top Ten in the country after their inspection. The bloodlines were good, the stallions performing at FEI levels and the dams coming from proven mare families. Did I keep these colts whole? Not only no, but heck no!

The last thing we need in this country is yet another stallion that gets 5 mares a year to breed (apparently the average). I know what it costs to raise, train and promote a stallion and let me tell you, unless you have very deep pockets you don't want to go there.

When you get your Chronicle of the Horse Stallion Issue look at the sheer number of horses advertised in there - it's mind-boggling! Why would you want to be one of the also ran when frozen semen from just about every big name stallion in the world is readily available and even people with less than stellar quality mares breed to them?

You will find that most of the folks encouraging you to keep your colt whole have never owned a stallion or feel like they have to encourage something other than accepted registry breeding. Whatever their reasons, believe me they're not good enough to put yourself through this adventure.

Good luck!

[Daydream Believer]

I keep hearing folks refer to "credible" registries. Well, I've seen horses approved First Premium with one of the OLD registries...not sure which one, get second premium with AWR...and I was looking at this horse wondering how in the heck it was anyone's First Premium.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif I think calling the American Registries "not credible" is shooting ourselves in the foot and putting down a lot of really nice stallions who only are registered with them for whatever reason...

With that kind of thinking, we'll be hiding in the shadows of the European breeders forever. JMO...would appreciate not being flamed for it.

[Lady Godiva]

Sorry... I wouldn't breed a mare to him, the bloodlines just aren't there! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[fish]

I'm in a situation very similar to yours. My colt is 19 months old and still entire. His mother's an ISR/Oldenburg premium TB, and his father is both gorgeous and one of the best bred Verband (but not American) approved Holsteiners in the country. Both his father's owners and I think the American registries are a ridiculous waste of money. The one time I presented a horse (my colt's mother), I got the supposedly important awards, but felt I'd paid a lot of $ to a money mill and learned absolutely nothing about my horse-- or anyone else's. It's my hope that a national data base will emerge that will render our pseudo-European breed-registry cliques obsolete and save breeders buckets load of money I'd rather be spending on feeding and campaigning my horses than flying inspectors all over tarnation to utter pronouncements that much of the market cares nothing about-- and which often fly in the face of easily-obtainable facts anyway. (E.g. one inspector wrote that we needed to improve our mare base when a comparison of our mares' scores to those in his home country showed our mares scored higher!! It was actually the stallions they needed to improve!! Could it be that he was, perhaps subconsciously, attempting to sell us some of his own country's lower scoring mares???).... After all, the Europeans don't do that-- and it's just one of the reasons they can undersell our horses any day of the week.

And, please, I just wish that American breeders would remember that the European WB's that took and continue to take the sport horse world by storm are all "mutts"-- otherwise known as examples of hybrid vigor. The Europeans didn't get where they are by forming exclusive cliques, but by seeking out and crossing the best horses they could find to contribute to the desired Sporthorse type--- often regardless of parentage. If you look at the pedigree of Steffan Peters' Grandeur, for example, you'll actually see "unknown" on the dam side, and a TB of extremely undistinguished lineage by racehorse standards on the top-- and Grandeur is far, far from being an exception.

Meanwhile, our own top riders -- especially those in the h/j market-- seem to remain pretty indifferent to all these breeder concerns about registries and papers-- that's why the owners of the very successful IHF stallion, Absolute, for example, never bother to register his offspring even though most of them are, in fact, Jockey Club, and certainly PHR eligible. They simply nominate them all to the IHF, and figure that's sufficient proof of parentage.

So, yes, I would very much like proof of parentage, performance and produce records, etc.-- but would forgo even that if I thought forgoing papers would get me the better horse... that's what I did when I bred my colt, and I'm pretty pleased with the decision. Meanwhile, I've had people (from the H/J ranks, of course) expressing interest in breeding to my colt ever since he was about 4 months old. Of course, a great deal may change when the time comes to collect money and semen, but for now, it strikes me as good reason to keep him entire as long as he remains an attractive gentleman who gives me no cause to cut him.

One friend did suggest that I "freeze and cut," but that struck me as a little cold.

[Robby Johnson]

If you have the resources to back and campaign a "mutt" stallion prospect - like Sam Barr does - or if you are willing to focus on a discipline specifically - like Sam Barr does, or like Absolut's owners do - you probably have a bit more leeway, but you still must prove the stallion in a discipline before he's worth pursuing as a legitimate, responsible breeding option.

Robby

[jhodkin]

It strikes me that most stallions are marketed to a particular field - especially showjumpers and dressage horses as there are many more of them than there are 'event' stallions.

Yes it's expensive, yes it's time-consuming, yes it's frustrating, and I whole-heartedly believe that most colts are not worth keeping entire. BUT, if world class breeders such as Sam Barr had not kept his horses entire (and by the way after trial breeding them as 2 yr olds he's cut many, many stallions including Rolex winner Welton Envoy), our sporthorse breeding stock would have been robbed of some truly outstanding progenitors.

If he's no bother, what's the rush to emasculate him? By the time he's 3 you might be dying to cut his b*lls off !!

Julia
Future Sport Horses - Event Horse Breeders (http://htp://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk)

[crestline]

I would lean towards gelding...not necessarily tomorrow but in the future, yes...and not from the mutt factor...but from the lack of registration. AWS, as I've heard it described is a performance registry, not a breeding registry. Also...don't forget...while a sweet weanling now, I agree with jhodkin...in another couple months or years he may become a bit of a handful when the hormones start.

[Kyzteke]

I agree that quality is the thing -- especially in WBs -- since plenty of well-bred animals can't perform. You can't ride the pedigree. Look at all the "mutt" animals that came from nowhere ("Figure" the original Morgan springs to mind) to produce fine animals.

But the other posters are correct in that it does take a lot of effort, time and $$ to promote a stallion that way. Meanwhile, you have to keep remembering that handling stallions, keeping stallions -- it all comes with its own set of issues. Yeah, I know, there are all these stallions out there who stay tied next to mares in heat 24/7 and never say a word...but there are also stallions out there who ACT like stallions, and that can be a problem.If you've never owned a stallion before, you might be in for a BIG surprise when your boy's hormones kick in.

You like your guy, but SO MANY breeders are really, really barn-blind. We all love our guys -- that's natural. But it's important to know if he really IS "all that," or if you just love him to death.

So why not take him to some in-hand shows? Get him registered AWS or PHR (they usually have classes)...or for that matter, most in-hand shows have classes according to age, so the horse doesn't even have to be registered. If you don't have the money for that, trust me -- you don't have the money for a stallion.

And if he does well consistantly, that will tell you he DOES have quality. It's not just you who sees it. Then you can put off the "unkindest cut of all" alittle while longer.

[jhodkin]

Kyzteke - really good points - I agree 100%

I have always gelded my colts, sold them and kept the fillies for my breeding programme. This year for the first time I have a colt foal that has the WOW factor. He's not pure-bred (as we breed eventers for performance, not for a particular 'breed'), and from the moment he was born he looked like a stallion. Feeling rather stupid for even considering keeping him entire, I ran a string of my best friends by him who have hundreds of years of breeding experience between them, and they ALL went WOW!!

So, never one to assume that my friends are being honest ( http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) I decided that independent, objective, cutting, cruel, heartless assessment of him was required - take him to a show (aaarrgghh - I don't do showing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif!!). Not just any local show though, because you need to put yourself up against the very best in the country for comparison. So I took him to the National Hunter Show - the biggest in the UK after Horse of the Year Show. We entered the Open Sporthorse Foal and Lightweight Hunter Foal Classes. He won both and qualified for the Championship against 5 other class winners and reserves, and won the Championship.

I was extremely flattered at the amount of people who tried to buy him from me, and the wonderful they said about him, but I was most taken aback by the Sporthorse judge who asked if I was going to keep him entire as he was (in her words) 'such a complete foal'.

Bragging aside - I stuck my neck out, ready to be chopped off, but no, it didn't happen. Instead I had my opinion and that of my knowledgeable friends ratified by independent, objective assessors, on a level playing field, against the best in his age group. I shall now run this lad on and probably trial breed some of my own mares when he's 2, if he is still showing the promise he's displayed to date.

In case you're interested, here's a picture of him I took at home:
Future Illusion (http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk/future_illusion1.htm)

I'll still geld him if he's a little sod as a 2 yr old, or if the trial breeding doesn't producce consistent 'type', as this boy is destined to have a career in eventing !!

Julia
Future Sport Horses - Event Horse Breeders (http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk)

[dbaygirl]

Jhodkin,,,that colt is GORGEOUS!! Do not geld him. Very lovely.

[MistyBlue]

IMO...as a mare owner...these are what should be considered to keep ANY colt/stallion intact:

1) Health, conformation, trainability and personality as a youngster. If he's hell on hooves, remove the hoo-hoo's. Nasty buggers...even technically perfect ones...that won't respond to training/discipline and have attitude problems need their attitudes removed. Period.
2) Talent and athleticism in addition to the above. If the father can't do what I want a future foal to do...then he's not the father for us. Handsome is as handsome does...he needs to prove it to me.
3) What he passes along. I don't want to use my mare and my money as a guinea pig. Even if he's super talented and has passed all the above criteria...if he's not passing it along then he's a gorgeous talented ornament who doesn't need his extra parts.

*VERY* few colts have what it takes to stay intact...and of the very few that stay intact past baby-hood...even fewer of those remain so. Getting a true stallion quality foal is like winning the lottery or getting hit by lightening. It's a rare occurance indeed. Very rare. Heaven forbid I ever end up with a stallion quality colt too...as nice as it sounds to have one...it's a double edged sword if you're not a big breeder. The marketing and promotion alone (not to mention the facilities needed) would bankrupt most of us. The showing, advertising, promotion, testing, proving, etc, etc, etc is very costly...as most stallion owners will tell you. I would sell the colt in a heartbeat to those who have the ability to keep it and promote it. (not saying I wouldn't walk around bragging that I bred it LOL, but I can't keep it properly)
When you add in "unconventional" registries to the above criteria...well, I wouldn't even consider it. You've now gone from the "getting hit by lightening" theory of a good stallion prospect to "getting hit by lightening while wearing a grass skirt, a beanie hat and juggling midgets" chance of getting it 100% on the nose. A registry needs to have strict guidelines and testing and years of experience and inventory in place to get it right. Breeding is expensive for the mare owner...and the chances with even a well proven stud aren't 100% that you'll get what you want/need/is correct out of your mare. For anyone serious about putting the best they can on the ground...and giving it the best chance possible at a long, productive career and possible sales...they just aren't going to go with anything less than what's above (plus other considerations that each breeder might have on top of these) and waste their time and money.
The ones who make stallions aren't the ones that need to be asked if they might have what it takes...they literally knock your sock off when you meet them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Flying Hearts]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the opinions! In February I will be taking him to his first show for an in hand class at Paxton, and then a few more in the local circuit for the experience. I will take him to bigger shows if he does well here. How do I post a picture? I would love to hear people's opinions on him.
Also, I don't know a lot about registering warmbloods...for the Oldenburg registries (both of em) can you get a stallion approved based on performance alone if the dam has never been inspected? (I have her papers from the ATA.) Thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[pwynnnorman]

Tiki, I've always suspected this to be the case, but where do you get the info from?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the average APPROVED FOR BREEDING with a credible registry stallion gets only an average of 4 mares a year anyway <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's a message that too many stallion owners work very hard at ignoring!

[sophab]

Flying Hearts-
It's such a tough call. I have to say, I was really happy when my filly was born a filly, made that decision really easy!
As for your mare, how old is she? I was at an ISR/Old inspection this year, and a 20+ year old ATA mare was approved. I believe that if you have a veterinary explanation of unsoundness, etc, they will take that into account. I saw quite a few mares there that had career ending injuries, but passed into the main mare book. I think if you are serious about keeping your colt in tact, it might be worth looking into at least. They will do a "prelimary" stallion inspection to judeg if your colt is of the quality they look for in a stallion prospect. I have a friend who did this with their 2 year old that they had kept in tact.
I agree with the others that stallions are tough. Most should be cut. If you think you really have something special though, give him every chance you can for him to be successful.

[dbaygirl]

I just learned how to post a picture myself...Flying Hearts. Go to Web Shots, join for free, post some pictures and then post the URL that we can click on here to view the pictures.

[showjumpers66]

Better yet, click "New" and then "Photo Album". The instructions are simple and make it easy to upload photos from your computer. I tend to avoid webshots links due to all of the pop ups.

[CuriosoJorge]

Pssst Robbie, if you are referring to the chestnut Absolut standing in NC, he is a Jockey Club registered TB and is by no means a mutt!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[LaurieB]

Wow, jhodkin, that is a beautiful colt! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Tiki]

pwynnnorman, I have heard that from a few stallion owners, read it in several publications (can't remember where right now), but of course know of a handful of stallions who get much bigger books than that - all the way from 40 for a couple to an unprecedented (for the US) 200 reported for 2, whose names I can guess but can't confirm. I've heard several times and places that the US average for a WB stallion is 4-5 mares. Actually, I think a couple of people on this board reported 1-2 mares per year.

[5]

there isn't really a 'market' but I have a friend with a really laid back anglo arab that he brought over from Bulgaria with him and a few people are interested in him as a cross with their mares.
If your horse has a managable temperment don't cut but don't expect people to be lining up for him either.

BTW why is an anglo-arab considered registerable as a warmblood in europe and registerable as one over there but not here?

[fish]

I think Julia made a super point: if your prospect is, like hers, one who makes people stop in their tracks and say "WOW" (unsolicited), there's likely to be a market for him-- approved/registered or not. The converse is clearly true for the horses lacking that factor-- approved or not, if they don't excite mare owners, they won't get many mares.

It is no doubt true that, as Tiki said, a lot of Approved stallions get very few mares. At the same time, there are also Unapproved stallions who DO get mares. I know for a fact that I'm not the only mare owner who will gladly pass on the papers if an unapproved stallion is more to my tastes.

BTW-- I don't think anyone said the very successful IHF stallion Absolut was a "mutt"-- quite the contrary, I said most of his foals were Jockey Club eligible, but his owners don't care and don't register them. Diana Dodge used to be the same way about Sir Thompson's get, and I don't even know if LImited Edition's owner kept his papers. Last time I looked, Aristos B was still getting plenty of mares, and I don't think he was ever approved, either.

[Ashemont]

None of the warmblood registries will accept this colt as a stallion unless he has an original acceptable set of papers. If mom can't be presented and entered into a MMB then no matter how far he goes in performance he will not be licensed as a stallion by any of them... unless the registries change the rules. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.

There are SO many stallions who do have the papers and pedigree... GOOD stallions. And with frozen semen the very best stallions in the world are now available to everyone.

I gelded AB Phoenix - a real WOW horse - because of personal reasons but also because I love him and want him to have the very best life. Phoenix was already provisionally licensed and well on his way towards a permanent license. He already had proven himself in the breeding shed. He has the pedigree, the conformation (and the multiple Championships in-hand to prove it), the temperament and the awesome movement... But I am all too familiar with what the market is. There was no way that it was economically feasible. It is EXPENSIVE to bring a stallion along. It's hard enough to justify a stallion who has everything going for him but I think you're really fighting an uphill battle.

Please do yourself and the this nice colt a favor and geld him. He will have a much happier life. And IMO the sooner you cut him the better.

[Harmony Farm]

I also agree with Robbie. Geld him! Based on what you have said about him, there are way too many nice warmblood stallions with impeccable bloodlines and in highly regarded European registries out there to keep him a stallion. There are way too many mediocre stallions out there that get no or very few breedings every year. Being a Warmblood breeder; I only breed to stallions that 1) are fully approved in a credible European studbook, 2) have or that have parents with outstanding performance records, 3) have good scores at their stallion tests, and 4) have virtually faultless movement, rideability and conformation. If a horse can withstand these criteria, then by all means keep him a stallion and try and get him approved with a reputable registry, preferably the one most associated with his bloodlines. Then, if he is not approved (and lets face it, more are turned down than are approved), geld him and make him into a super riding horse!

Flame me if you want, but I will only breed to stallions that meet these criteria. And....you can do that on a budget if you try. I am not rich by no means and I have.

[Flying Hearts]

Thanks everyone, I thinkI've figured out what I'm going to do with him.... Here is a link to a website with about a zillion pics of him. I would really love to hear everyone's opinion, good or bad! (Unfortunately I don't have any good photos online showing his movement.)

http://www.geocities.com/flyingheartsfarm

Towards the top of the page there's a link that says Con Brio - that's him. If you have a good connection, it will work fine, but for people with junky computers like me it sometimes won't load right - there a trick that sometimes works - let the pop up ad load all the way before you x it out. If you're still having trouble try www.geocities.com/flyingheartsfarm/conbrio.htm (http://www.geocities.com/flyingheartsfarm/conbrio.htm)
Sincerely,

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flying Hearts:
Hi everyone,
I have a weanling colt who I am trying to figure out if I want to leave a stallion or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are "trying to figure out" if you want to leave him a stallion maybe you shouldn't.

Did you breed this horse? If so, what was your purpose? To create a nice using horse for you to raise, train, and compete? Sounds like you have a nice horse that will make a terrific gelding to enjoy for years and years.

[Flying Hearts]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sophab:
Flying Hearts-
As for your mare, how old is she? I was at an ISR/Old inspection this year, and a 20+ year old ATA mare was approved. I believe that if you have a veterinary explanation of unsoundness, etc, they will take that into account. I saw quite a few mares there that had career ending injuries, but passed into the main mare book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,
She is coming 22 in about 3 months. She did not have the best of care before I got her - she is foundered (I am trying the barefoot/natural trim approach as nothing else was working), she has a huge scar on her rear leg along her hock and cannon bone that causes that leg to be puffy all the time (no lameness in it), and she has bad stifles so she can't back up, and she tends to stand slightly "parked out." I'm also worried about stressing her too much because she had to have colic surgery while in foal - I don't know if she's even ever been to a show. So...at this point in time I'd have to say she just has too many problems to warrant taking her to an inspection.

[fish]

Sorry, Flying Hearts, but I couldn't get in.

And I would like to say a few words to all those who don't want you to give your colt a chance to prove himself:

1. Like it or not, there is a lot of breeding going on outside your registries-- and a lot of it is producing darned nice, extremely competitive horses. Yes, everyone has to pay "dues" of some sort to get a stallion's name out-- but they don't have to be the ones set by the registries-- there ARE other routes.

2. Stallions do NOT have to live like criminals--- and, by all means, if you have a colt who becomes so nasty that he does, by all means, geld him. Somebody early on in this thread said s/he "didn't want to hear about the ones that can stand tied to a trailer next to mares and be fine"-- but they DO exist-- and, guess what, that's what a lot of people like to breed to-- after all, what amateurs need more than anything is temperament, right?!! Yes, we can get semen from the "best" horses all around the world now, but the fact is that there are still people who like to breed to local stallions they can see, close up and personal-- and even ride--as the buyer of one of my colt's sisters did. E.g., I used to get a kick out of a very nice large grey Arab who was getting about 20 mares/year in Florida-- his owner was a very young woman who rode him bareback all over Ft. Lauderdale (well, Davie, actually, unicorporated Ft. Lauderdale)-- she'd hack him to the mares, and then hack back to show him his babies the next year. Clearly, there are different ways to get a horse "out," and this stallion seemed pretty happy with his.

3. Leaving a colt entire is not a permanent decision-- cutting one is. Before my colt was born, I had already made the decision to geld and sell if I got a colt, and keep a filly, but when I saw him, and I heard the "WOW"'s, it gradually changed my mind. At first the owner of my colt's daddy was sounding like a lot of you guys-- from "why keep him entire when you can always get to his Daddy?" to "Do you know how hard it is to keep and campaign a stallion?" After seeing him she changed her mind. If my colt does turn into a PITA, I can always change mine.

[showjumpers66]

I was able to view a couple of pictures, but that is it. You might try moving your webpage to another free server such as www.bravenet.com (http://www.bravenet.com) or www.freeservers.com (http://www.freeservers.com) and you will not have this problem there.

[Daydream Believer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fish:

1. Like it or not, there is a lot of breeding going on outside your registries-- and a lot of it is producing darned nice, extremely competitive horses. Yes, everyone has to pay "dues" of some sort to get a stallion's name out-- but they don't have to be the ones set by the registries-- there ARE other routes.

2. Stallions do NOT have to live like criminals--- and, by all means, if you have a colt who becomes so nasty that he does, by all means, geld him. Somebody early on in this thread said s/he "didn't want to hear about the ones that can stand tied to a trailer next to mares and be fine"-- but they DO exist-- and, guess what, that's what a lot of people like to breed to-- after all, what amateurs need more than anything is temperament, right?!!
. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow well said. I have one of those stallions that stands tied to the trailer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I get so amazed at the replies to people like this. Not everyone wants to toe the line to a European registry. I'm just not convinced that horses registered with them are that much better than anyone elses. I've been shocked several times now at what supposedly is approved by some of these registries and wonder what are they thinking?

My advice to the original poster is that if you like your colt, keep him a stallion. Do your own thing. Prove him through performance in a discipline and I'll bet you'll have a fair number of bookings. Get him registered with an American based registry if you want so mare owners can register his foals.

[jumpgirl]

I saw a few photos and, while you have a nice foal, I don't think you have the wow factor.

That said, I have a friend who has a 4 year old unapproved stallion that is very nice but not "wow" and she had 5 mares bred to him last year as a 3 year old. For 2005, she already has 5 mares booked to him and with absolutely NO promotion, shows etc. He had several months training and she has photos/video of him doing dressage & jumping.

We have to remember that the number of warmblood breeders who suscribe to the offshoot European registries here in America are very small in number. There is a HUGE market for hunter mare owners, eventers, and jumpers. I sincerely believe that, while the number of mares for "approved" warmblood stallions may average at 4, the average number of unapproved mares going to the average unapproved stallion is much higher. From a purely business point of view.....

[dbaygirl]

Can't view the pictures, Flying Heart...

[Kyzteke]

Flying Heart -- I could only see one or two of your photos. Not that my opinion means much, but I would have to say what you have is a very nice gelding. I don't see a stallion prospect there. Sorry.
But once again, you have time. To the best of my knowledge, only ONE WB registry will "approve" a stallion whose sire was not also approved by a major registry and that is AWS. ISR/OldNA and RPSI both require that both the sire AND the dam be approved. As far as mare approval, you can easily get your mare approved by either registry in their MMB as long as she is REGISTERED with ATA, JC, AHA or any of the usual WB registries. But if she goes in one of the lesser mare books (which she can, even if she has NO papers) then she cannot produce an approved stallion.
HOWEVER, even if you don't get him approved or licensed...or even if he never does ANYTHING beyond being ridden in local shows, you could probably still find people who want to breed to him. A local breeder has a 1/2 Paint, 1/2 WB stallion who covers 20+ mares per year. He is NOT approved by anybody but AWS. She shows him in local shows, he's a mellow guy and he's pretty.
Another guy in this area has a fairly well-bred Qtr. Horse (lots of good horses in his pedigree, but they are fairly far back). He takes this guy to rodeos, does his team roping and the horse is a perfect gentleman. And he breeds about 3 mares a year...at $200 per.I personally don't think it would be worth the trouble for a lousey $600 per year, but his point is the horse is not a problem to ride, handle or show being a stallion, so why NOT keep him entire. Can't argue with that.

My advice remains the same. Show him, let a variety of EXPERTS (not your girlfriend who has had horses for ages, etc.)who have no emotional involvement with you or the horse evaluate him.If he keeps finishing #1 or #2 in show after show, then I'd let him keep his parts as long as he was behaving. As long as he's not a problem, you don't have to geld him...

[ise@ssl]

Well my breeding program isn't a hobby or for myself - I sell what I breed. I will NOT breed to unpapered and un-approved stallions for that reason. It's a tough enough market selling registered, premium horses with documented pedigree out of mares that were scored and approved.

[Oakstable]

I'd say there is no market for the stallion you described as there is plenty of competition from both licensed and unlicensed stallions. The mare owners are not hurting for stallion choices.

Geldings have happier lives, really.

[Tiki]

He's cute, but I do not see stallion material there.

[Fred]

lots of intelligent and thoughtful discussion,thank you everyone!
Off the top of my head, my first response was, as many said, "geld him".. for all the reasons mentioned.. but there have been a number of thoughtful posts to the opposite view too.
I agree on the whole that unless a horse is exceptional and you are willing to stay the course with him, it is really not worth it to you to keep him a stallion..
on the other hand, kyztake, freehold and julia (lovely colt!) made some very valid points.
I guess my feeling at this point, is nothing is etched in stone. He is just a baby.. you don't need to be in a rush to geld him.. and believe me, you may very well change your mind suddenly when he turns 2!.
So in the meantime, get him out, show him on the line..see how he stacks up with other colts of his age.. and see what kind of horse he is.
I can only go by my own experience, which is somewhat like julia's - I never intended to keep a stallion, but I had a colt..who just knocked my and everyone else who saw him socks off.. I didn't say I will make him a stallion, it was more like I won't geld him just yet. In my case, and I recommend this, is to take it step by step. Show him on the line, see how he does, how he behaves.. start him under tack and again see how he goes how he behaves.. still good? still love him? then carry on... show him.. will he win?can he breed and still show? and win?..
In my own case, I was breeding TB racehorses, but always boring everyone in earshot with my constant bla bla about the importance of TBs in sport as sport horses etc.. and when this particular colt came along, my husband said, now you have a chance to put your money where your mouth is (so to speak)... I had a goal in mind, a vision if you like,and that sustained me during the times I felt like a fish swimming upstream against the tide of WB's...

So, my suggestion is do nothing for now. think on it,look at him very critically next year, and get him out and seen by others.. but unless he shows himself to be exceptional, and you really feel that he will contribute something special to the gene pool, then I think the wise thing for him and for you would be to geld him,
Good luck, courage!

[Flying Hearts]

First off, thanks to everyone who's responded privately and on here - it's been very interesting! Anyway...here's what I've decided to do and why. I'm not deciding anything just yet - until he gives me an absolute reason to leave him whole forever or geld him I'll just bide my time. I will be showing him in hand starting in February and if he does well, great, if he doesn't I will geld him. If he becomes hard to handle, he's getting cut because personality is very important to me. If his movement, conformation, whatever changes for the worse, he's getting cut. But if he doesn't give me a real reason to cut him I won't.
The part I'm guessing might bother some people is this - no, this colt may not make the most absolutely spectacular stallion on the earth. But he's not some backyard horse with every conformation defect in the book - he is a very nice horse. And if he will throw a couple of very nice horses every year for me then it's worth it to me to breed him. I, personally, am not that worried about breeding to or for a certain breed. I'm more worried about having athletic good natured foals who can excel in whatever discipline you can imagine. Dressage, jumpers, reining, anything! So if I can't get 20 mares worth 30k booked to him, big deal...if he can breed a handful of decent local TB mares and produce a handful of decent babies I'll be happy. If they can't go to Prix St. George or jump 5 1/2 feet, that's ok...if they can do the 3'6", and make it to 3rd level for their owners, that's just fine.
I will never have the money for an extremely nice stallion of one of the big European breeds, and I will never have the money to seriously market one. But as long as I'm breeding a few nice horses with good temperaments that can perform well, then I don't think it's wrong, or a waste. There, that's my 2 cents. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[CenterlineFarm]

It obvious we are talking two different markets here.

One is a backyard breeder. I know of a bunch of stallions who are nice fellows that breed a dozen or so mares for $400 or $500 a shot per year. These guys get people who want a foal out of their mare fairly cheaply and just want something they can have fun with. There is nothing wrong with that. Everybody is happy, so who cares?

Then there is the breeder who is trying to produce superior animals to sell to clientele, or are striving to produce the ideal sporthorse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. They follow all the rules, pay their dues, study bloodlines, etc. Naturally, they would not be interested in such a stallion.

There have been quotes of 'stallions getting an average of 5 breedings' or whatever. I don't know who the heck comes up with these statistics and I would really like to see some creditable sources when people quote it. I see many stallions getting dozens (or more) mares and the older stallions getting few to none. I also know of some stallions that are not bred, but used for competition only... unfortunately for some of us http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif!! Perhaps adding all the stallions that have been approved all together they average out at 5 or something. But either way, I don't see the backyard horses pulling breedings away. If people want quality they will go to an approved stallion. If people just want a baby they will go to whatever is most convenient.

To be honest, the backyard breeder who stands the stallion makes more money in the end - they have no output above the stallion's own care expenses. It is the mare owners who will lose if they try to sell the babies. But there is probably a bigger market for those who just want a baby than there are professional breeders. I don't think anyone who breeds to the backyard stallion expects to sell the foal. And when they do, they usually lose money. Come to think of it, many reputable breeders who try to sell for PROFIT usually lose money....hmmmm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good luck with your colt.
He could be a lot of fun for you and bring in some money...or by the time he hits 3 years old you could be so sick of the whole testosterone thing that you geld him. Most people do.

[Ashemont]

Sorry but I think you're looking at this backwards by saying "I won't cut him unless he gives me a reason to". I look at it from the opposite point of view and will absolutely NOT keep a horse ENTIRE unless he gives me a really, really good reason to! And just being the highest scoring colt in the US is not even enough of a reason for me (yep, I gelded that one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

I also think when talking about keeping a horse that is not superior as a stallion you really have to look at the liability issue, too. In this litigious age that is one verry huge consideration IMO.

[CHJoker]

Jhodkin,

Why yes, that colt of yours MOST definately has the WOW factor.

Good luck with that one. He is just gorgeous!! If you ever decide you want to sell that "hottie", please give me a call http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To the OP, I just saw your colt, and he's cute! BUT, you asked about the "marketability" of your colt. IMHO, he does not have the wow factor, at least for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and if he is unregistered, it will be hard to ask for much money in stud fees, and your "market" will be backyard breeders.

If you don't have a serious breeding operation, why bother with the hassle of keeping a stallion? Then again, as others have said, if he is not a handful, I guess why not add to the horse population, LOL. Everyone else is doing it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Good luck to you both.

[Duffy]

Julia - I think your colt wants to come live in Virginia!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Flying Hearts - I can tell that your heart and soul truly seem to be with this colt. I think your plan is a good one, i.e., get some outside opinions in the flesh, not just pictures, and see how it goes. If he's sweet, there's no reason to cut him right now. Good luck!

Disclaimer, the only breeding operation I have been familiar with is my aunt's Connemara farm. I do know that she pretty much gelds EVERYTHING, even the special ones. Only the 99-100% closest to the breed specs got purchased or stayed intact. AND, they had to have the personality to match!

[Rocky XVI]

Obviously you believe in this guy, Flying Hearts. Follow your instincts. You see him every day, and we're just looking at pictures.

BTW when I was in Europe I stopped in at several of the big European studs, including the one at Celle. A LOT of these famous, approved stallions look pretty darn ordinary when they are just standing in their stalls munching hay. I wouldn't say that each and every one of them made ME say wow, so maybe there's more to a stallion than that, eh?

[Yowsa]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ashemont:
Sorry but I think you're looking at this backwards by saying "I won't cut him unless he gives me a reason to". I look at it from the opposite point of view and will absolutely NOT keep a horse ENTIRE unless he gives me a really, really good reason to! And just being the highest scoring colt in the US is not even enough of a reason for me (yep, I gelded that one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only problem I have with this method of thinking is- It's a heck of a lot easier to cut them off then to put them back on!! If you have the facility and ability then why not wait it out and see? Rather than possibly regret it later. If the stallion thing isn't working out, then you can geld him.

[CHJoker]

Well, Rocky, I get your point, but...

What do those famous European stallions most definately HAVE, besides NOT having a "wow" factor when standing around eating hay?

1. An extraordinary pedigree, excellent conformation, proven show record, proven offspring, etc.

2. Approval from a highly regarded registry

3. Plenty of mares to breed

4. Promotion, a famous verband or breeding operation, etc., etc., etc.

I agree, there is alot more than "wow" factor that goes into a good stallion prospect. But, actually, "seeing him every day" and "following your heart" can also cloud your judgement and expectations. No one is being mean by calling a spade a spade.

Could the OP's baby be a breeding stallion? Most definately. Almost any uncastrated horse could. SHOULD he be a breeding stallion? Well, that is what is prompting all of the different comments http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The real question asked was marketability. The market is most likely for backyard breeders, IMHO. But, that may be exactly what the OP is looking for, and then, that's great!!

[fish]

I think the people who've bred 5 and 6 figure h/j's and event horses without going the approvals route would (and should) take serious issue with anyone labeling them "backyard breeders."

I certainly recognize the incredible emotional and financial investment many of you have in the American-European system, but I do not think that justifies denigrating breeders who've chosen different routes in pursuit of their sporthorse dreams.

Certainly, there are stallions out there who should be cut, but hopefully we have an increasingly educated market which will in fact decide not to send them mares-- not to mention a National database the market can use to verify claims. Meanwhile, however, we happen to have a lot of excellent stallions producing some of the top horses in the country (including AHSA Horses of the Year) without ever having seen an Approval-- and some, in fact, having been inspected and rejected. Have you looked at the Hunter Jumper forum's thread on shopping for horses at the farms of American breeders-- and/or their opinions of all the talk here about bloodlines and inspections used to justify what shoppers consider inflated prices for the specimens being offered? It's pretty educational reading, which seems to be heading in a very constructive direction for both breeders and shoppers.

Meanwhile, what's wrong with letting a horse's behavior and development be the deciding factor when it comes to letting a guy keep his balls?

[scrubs]

" Meanwhile, what's wrong with letting a horse's behavior and development be the deciding factor when it comes to letting a guy keep his balls?"

For the same reason we spay and nueter our cats and dogs!! Too many mediocre offspring and it ends up bad for the animal.

Flying Hearts: Geld him.

[fish]

"For the same reason we spay and nueter our cats and dogs!! Too many mediocre offspring and it ends up bad for the animal."

Excuse me, but the last time I looked, people weren't letting horses loose to breed (or even wander) at will as they do cats and dogs. Just because an animal has the equipment does not mean s/he will have to use it. After all, there aren't many people spaying their perpetually maiden mares, are there? The fact is that I know several people who have stallions who live very much like geldings--- one even uses hers for beginner riding lessons. This horse is 15 and has bred maybe 5 mares in his life. What harm is he or his owner doing?
I also know several people (myself included) who've had a wonderful animal they've sorely wished was NOT neutered because they would so much loved to keep a good thing going.

Yes, indeed, there are "backyard breeders" (and irresponsible pet owners) out there who are producing undesireable babies who therefore have a hard time finding homes. I do not get the impression, however, that Flying Heart is one of them, and I don't think I'm one either. I've built my 6+' fence, complete with 2 lines of electricity, and I'm doing my best to make sure my guy is thoroughly respectable. Besides, our horses are not merely "mutts," but rather "well-bred mutts," which seems to me a pretty good description of what Warmbloods are anyway.

[Sparks5]

If your colt grows into an exceptional stallion (performance, conformation, disposition) I say breed him! To me, there really isn't much to the "mutt" theory in Warmbloods. All Warmbloods are basically the same breed, but just plugged into a different registry.

I personally know of a "mutt" Hanoverian stallion who did fabulously in our local community. Due to an injury, he was never inspected, approved, registered, etc. He showed competitively to 2nd level (before the injury), and sired maybe 200 FANTASTIC babies. Many have gone on to be very competitive dressage and jumping horses.

Now if you were saying you had a Quarter Horse/Hanoverian/Welsh...then I would say forget it.

[jumpgirl]

fish, well said. The fact is that MOST mares bred in this country are NOT to approved warmblood stallions and that does NOT mean that theose breeders are backyard breeders.

The fact that so many elistist warmblood breeders seem to have such a problem with stallions' temperments when so many of the "others" are not having so many problems with stallions speaks for itself.

You do not have to have this so-called "special" facility to house a stallion. Stallions go to shows, are around mares, have juniors handle them all routinely in other countries and in other breeds/diciplines. It is only the warmblood breeders in the US who seem to fear them so much.

If the warmblood breeders are spending so much time and money to get their average of 4 mares a year, maybe they need to reevaluate their market.

That said, I breed for high level jumpers. I do NOT like the weird out crossing - draft crosses, hackney/tb/arab whatevers, etc. I will breed to the best stallion I can get that fits my GP jumper mare and for 2005 that just happens to be a non-registered warmblood stallion. Go figure.

[CHJoker]

I think this has more to do with the sentiment of "let the guy keep his balls" than the realities of the market. This OP's horse, without either the registry approval OR one hell of a performance record, is interesting to pretty much only a backyard breeder, IMHO.

Now, as to the claim there are six figure unapproved stallions out there, I bet there may be, but I bet they have other credentials to back up the price tag. I would be REALLY surprised if that wonder stallion didn't have one HELL of a performance record, probably wonderful breeding to begin with, and was simply unapproved due to circumstance. IF there is a stallion (s) out there that is unapproved, has no show record, has no real pedigree to speak of, and is owned by an amateur breeder (to keep it in perspective of the OP's situation) that is breeding the top mares in the country, commanding top stud fees, for whatever discipline, then I will stand corrected about my comments regarding the fact that this posters colt, although very cute, would probably only interest backyard breeders.

[fish]

First of all, I did not say the STALLIONS were 5 and 6 figures, but that many unapproved-- and sometimes completely unknown stallions have produced OFFSRPING in that price range--- and they most certainly HAVE. In addition, they've often done so without "breeding to the top mares in the country."

That's one of the reasons that a lot of top trainers don't give a hoot about approvals or even bloodlines. The PRODUCT IS the best credential--and nobody can know for sure what that's going to be if the horse is cut before he's given a chance.

P.S. "Unapproved due to circumstance" certainly must include having parents the owners simply decided they did not care to register-- and a helluva lot of fine, well-bred horses fall into that category.

[siegi b.]

To fish - you obviously have a problem with the European registries and are using every opportunity to voice off about that. At this point I have to assume this is because you have a colt that would not be approved by one of those non-American outfits. True?

Why don't you name a few of the 6-figure horses that came from completely unknown and unapproved parents? And if you're talking about the hunter market, guess what? It's also going to those horrible European warmbloods! Look around you and you will see that.

To the OP - please check with your county/state to get an idea of what the laws are regarding stallion keeping. That in itself may be a big eye opener....

[pwynnnorman]

EROS, Siegi b!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> First of all, I did not say the STALLIONS were 5 and 6 figures, but that many unapproved-- and sometimes completely unknown stallions have produced OFFSRPING in that price range--- and they most certainly HAVE. In addition, they've often done so without "breeding to the top mares in the country."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hooray FISH!!!!

My guy has been producing babies who've brought in five figures for years and never stood for more than $750 in his entire career...and since the pony who was reserve to his son as HOTY was advertised for sale for $75,000, I suppose it is even conceivable that his son could have gone six figures. And if his endurance son, ridden by a gold medalist, gets to the next Olympics, maybe some Arab guy will go six on him. And what do you suppose Con should be worth when he goes Advanced next spring?...and so on and so on and so on.

In short, no tonly do I find this statement to be basically nonsense, I'm offended by it:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why don't you name a few of the 6-figure horses that came from completely unknown and unapproved parents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fish]

"And if you're talking about the hunter market, guess what? It's also going to those horrible European warmbloods! Look around you and you will see that."

I suggest you take a look at the H/J forums to hear why they're going not to the American-based quasi-European registry affiliated breeders, but rather to Europe itself for their Warmblood horses. As one trainer put it, in Europe, (I hope I'm paraphrasing fairly) if someone offers to show her a fantastic Cassini youngster, she's interested, but not here, because here she travels long distances only to discover that breeders don't seem to know what they do (and do not) have, and that the horses don't generally live up to all those expensive papers or to the oral representations. I dislike the American registries because I think they hurt breeders by unnecessarily inflating the prices of their horses for no good cause than I can see. There are a lot of approved stallions out there that look, perform, and produce no better-- and often a whole lot worse-- than unapproved ones.

And I did, BTW, walk away (complete with Premium award for the horse I presented) from my one and only Inspection over 10 years ago because I considered it a complete waste of time and money.

Yes, I have a lovely colt-- which I could almost certainly have approved if I saw fit to pay well over $900 to get his German-approved sire recorded (sorry if that's the wrong lingo) in this country-- and then pay hundreds more on top of that for his presentation, blah, blah. Thanks, but no thanks. I've had people asking first to buy him, and then inquiring about whether or not I was going to stand him since he was 2 months old. I know that's still a long way from exchanging semen for $, but, especially consid,.ering the quality of the people inquiring, I hope I'm forgiven for hanging onto my dreams.

And so, if I sound disrespectful of your registries, it's because I am-- I spent about 2 years looking at stallions for my mare-- both approved ones and unapproved one, both in the flesh (yes, I took road trips) and in videos. When I found what I considered the best stallion in the world for my mare (after consulting with authorities in Europe, who kindly evaluated videos of my mare)-- guess what-- he's owned by someone who feels exactly the same way about the registries as I do. Her feelings: "if you'd rather breed for papers than the best possible horse, be my guest."

What I frankly don't understand is why those of you who are so commited to your registries are so vehement in your condemnations of those of us who decide to take other paths. What harm does it do you-- or anyone-- if we decide to breed our own horses by our own lights?

[jumpgirl]

Again, we see Siegi throwing out completely made up accusations, this time at fish.

I also don't care for the quasi-european registries here and I have never bred a "stallion" prospect. I have however been to Oldenburg and to Holland, imported mares, presented mares and foals to different registries, never had one turned down, actually had one go kuer with the dutch and had one score 2nd highest mare at an Oldenburg inspection. No sour grapes here but I will probably never take one back to any of the registries for the reasons fish has stated and that I have stated in other posts...again, because it is stupid and I was stupid to buy into the scam and most officials of the registries think we are stupid for doing it.

BTW, you want top horses bred by unknowns? How about Rusty? - competing in the Olympics in dressage? They think he has TB bloodlines but completely unknown and is probably a crossbred.

[fish]

Thank you, jumpgirl-- now I can go to my lecture on Equine Nutrition-- after all, how they're fed can be as important as how they're bred http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

[STF]

Maybe I should start a "Backyard Mutt Breeders Assn".....for all the pretty mutts out there! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

There is a woman I know who breeds an unapproved stallion to her mares and sells her babies. Does decent as well.

But...I know I look for registry options and Im a big pedigree research freak! I have a "mutt" here that looks like just his grandsire on sire side, yet his "mutt" brother looks totally different!! Genetics is odd and unpredictable, even with approved stallions!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Finding those stallions with 4-5 generations of superb stallions ARE there but we have to pay for them too!!!

[CenterlineFarm]

I am only aware of 3 stallions by the name of Eros. Two are Imported Dutch Warmbloods (not homebred and the product of intense European breeding and possibly rejected as breeding stock from their programs) and the other is a Swedish Warmblood who is approved Swedish and is the product of very good bloodlines - again resulting from intense selective breeding.

Is there another??

I find it amusing that people who engage in back-yard breeding get huffy when it is called such. Breeding Unregistered, Unapproved, and/or Unproven stock is the DEFINITION of back-yard breeding. And it is interesting that the people who do so consider it an insult when they are called on it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It is the EXACT same thing in the dog breeding business. People will take a puppy that the original breeders didn't think was show quality, or wasn't interested in breeding themselves, and sell it to someone under the assumption that it will be a pet, not breeding stock, and then the person goes and breeds it, advertises the pups in the paper and then brags about how much money they got for the pups! They are merely riding on the coat-tails of those who DO pay their dues.

For those that do not support the registeries. Fine. Whatever. YES it is expensive. YES it is less than ideal. BUT I don't see any Donald Trumps investing in it. I don't see any millionaires at the top levels benefitting from the sweat of the breeder's brows (unless they were millionaires to start with of course...which if they stay in horses will quickly change that happy situation!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)

It is an expensive truck to roll along - this breeding gig. Saying you don't support an organized breeding quality control attempt is like saying that you support puppy-mills or that you do support backyard breeding. (note:I have stated in the past that I do not think anything is wrong with back-yard horses. They fill a great niche. HOWEVER I get REALLY mad when people try to make it what it is not. Or say that they are 'just as good as the approved hroses' or other nonsense like that.)


And it is also saying that you think you know more than people who have seen hundreds of horses. Have years of experience in judging breeding stock. Have seen what bloodlines produce or not. And have seen generations of these bloodlines to know what they should or should not be crossed with for optimal results.

I am not that arrogant. Are you??

And you are also riding on the Coat-tails of those who ARE trying to put their money where their mouth is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif


There is a reason why people, when they hear thw words European Warmblood, immediately associate it with quality. (At least they used to. Now with poor breeding practices, etc, the reputation is starting to sour a little over here.) And it is through concentrated efforts of breeders in the past that the horses of today are what they are.

THAT is why people get mad when others scoff at the system.

You are all coat-tail riders.

[Cartier]

Fish, you make some very interesting points. Can I ask, why do you post anonymously?

And Centerline you are a bit off here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is the EXACT same thing in the dog breeding business. People will take a puppy that the original breeders didn't think was show quality, or wasn't interested in breeding themselves, and sell it to someone under the assumption that it will be a pet, not breeding stock, and then the person goes and breeds it, advertises the pups in the paper and then brags about how much money they got for the pups! They are merely riding on the coat-tails of those who DO pay their dues. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are basically describing pet quality stock, and reputable breeders sell pet quality stock on Limited Registrations, which means that the AKC will not register offspring of dogs that the breeder feels are NOT of breeding quality. Reputable breeders do not make assumptions about whether pet quality animals will contribute to the gene pool. Rather, they take positive steps (e.g. spay, neuter, Limited Registrations), to safeguard the quality and reputation of their breeding programs.

It might be nice if horse breeders had those kinds of options, but I don't ever see that happening here. We live in a country where we cherish our freedoms... and one of those freedoms is that we can basically breed whatever we please...whether it be good or bad.

[Ashemont]

Centerline, other than the point Cartier mentions I think that's an excellent post and I sure agree with you.

Fish, I'd sure like to know who you are and what your credentials are. I try to discuss issues and post factual information; you seem to like to take personal swipes. Can we please just stick to the issues and leave personal stuff behind?

And Cartier, what works for the AKC unfortunately will not work in the horse world - we're just not there. Heck, look at what happened to HBA!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sportpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CenterlineFarm:
And it is also saying that you think you know more than people who have seen hundreds of horses. Have years of experience in judging breeding stock. Have seen what bloodlines produce or not. And have seen generations of these bloodlines to know what they should or should not be crossed with for optimal results.
I am not that arrogant. Are you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, perhaps, I came into the registry/approval situation with the warmblood horses with a predisposition to be somewhat dubious about the process from prior personal experience. However, it was with the German breeding association for dogs, not horses.

The above quote by Centerline is very similar to comments I heard from American Rottweiler breeders back in the early 80s. I was raising Rottweilers, had been for several years, and many American breeders were starting to import a number of German Rottweilers at the time.

The German Rottweiler breed association had an inspection system (which had existed for many generations) much like the one for German warmblood horse registries. Sire and dam had to be registered/approved prior to breeding. Puppies from those litters had to be inspected and approved by the official "breed warden" before registration papers were issued. Breeding animals with certain genetic flaws could not be bred, or if they were, the puppies were not eligible for registration.

I had owned, bred and succssfully shown Rottweilers from American bloodlines for several years. I produced a reasonable number of champions, with breed and working titles. There was a minimum of pupplies with genetic flaws.

Over the next few years I purchased ... or bred to ... several German imports and/or first generation puppies from German import parents from three different "significant" bloodlines. From these German lines, I had to eventually deal with several genetic problems that I had never had to deal with from my "privately bred, uninspected/unapproved by a breed warden" American bred dogs.

This was something I routinely heard the owners of these same German imports saying, that the American lines were of "second class breeding" because they had not had the advantage of generations of really knowledgeable selection and culling from the best of the German Rottweiler experts.

Bottom line was ... I had had very few genetic problems with the American bloodlines. I had significantly more genetic problems, including two serious ones, with the German bloodlines.

Because of this experience with the results coming from the German inspection/approval process, though with dogs rather than horses, I think you can understand why I have been somewhat cynical about the process with the horses.

I'm sure it has its place. I'm just not sure that I can ever be convinced it is the only system that will produce high quality, successful results when I saw that the system did not consistently produce better quality animals with a very similar system in another species.

[Sparks5]

I'm with fish on this issue. If a mare owner is breeding for PERFORMANCE, they are going to look for a stallion with a performance record who sires babies with performance records.

I'm sure you've all heard of Mr. Prospector. He's probably the UGLIEST (with a capital UGLY) horse that ever lived. His pedigree was laughable. BUThe sired TBs who could run their heart out...and WIN! He's one of the greatest race sires to have ever lived. When he first stood to the public, people would rather turn their head and puke then look at him a second time. He had probably the most horrible conformation a horse could have!

But......people gave him a chance and look what's he has done for the racing world.

Just because a warmblood stallion isn't in kahootz with all the european registries does not make him bad.

When I take my horse to a dressage show and win a class, do people run up to me and say, "Oooh! Can I see your pedigree???" Nope. They just congratulate me on a good horse and a good ride.

Some mare owners just want babies to be successful in the ring. Some mare owners are looking for all the registrations and approvals and that is FINE!

You paddle your boat - I'll paddle my boat.

[yepanotheralter]

My take is that although the approval system and various registries and their rules aren't "perfect", at least there is an attempt to try to maintain at least a minimum level of quality within the respective breed. It sure beats shooting in the dark, which is basically what you are doing when you breed a "mutt". Breeding is never a sure thing, but trying to keep it "as sure as possible" is a step in the right direction. Yes, mutts can and have achieved miraculous things (ie. Rusty), but how much luck can one horse have? I guess that remains to be seen....and I guess I'm not the risk-taker who thinks its worth it to try and find out.

Cartier, FYI, who cares why anyone on here is posting anonymously? Someone else said this same thing to me in one of my threads and frankly it annoyed me and considering YOU are posting anonymously, does it really make sense for you to even ask?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Cartier, FYI, who cares why anyone on here is posting anonymously? Someone else said this same thing to me in one of my threads and frankly it annoyed me and considering YOU are posting anonymously, does it really make sense for you to even ask?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Let’s see, why do I inquire about people who post anonymously? One easy answer is directly from Psych 101, because de-individuation encourages contra normative behavior.

When someone is known, they are accountable for what they are saying. If you look at the majority of meritless nasty overly-personal posts, they are usually made by people hiding behind an alias…and for the most part, these are people hiding from accountability for their conduct. And then of course, posting anonymously allows people to sign up for numerous anonymous accounts… so they can post again and again... and “win” the argument... which simply clutters this forum with cr-p.

If I am going to even consider the merit of someone’s opinions, I like to know that they have the integrity to stand up for what they are saying.I'd also like to know that they have some miles on 'em and that they have accomplished something of merit in life.

Nothing is as sickening to me as private posts I get saying, “Oh I agree with you 100%, but don’t tell any one.” I always want to respond, “For gods sake, what are you hiding from?” We are speaking of horse breeding here, we’re not exchanging top secret military data. For goodness sake, we should be able to speak freely and express our opinions with civility. And we should be accountable for what we say here.

And I am not anonymous... not by a long shot http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Sebastian]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siegi b.:
To fish - you obviously have a problem with the European registries and are using every opportunity to voice off about that. At this point I have to assume this is because you have a colt that would not be approved by one of those non-American outfits. True?

Why don't you name a few of the 6-figure horses that came from completely unknown and unapproved parents? And if you're talking about the hunter market, guess what? It's also going to those horrible European warmbloods! Look around you and you will see that.

To the OP - please check with your county/state to get an idea of what the laws are regarding stallion keeping. That in itself may be a big eye opener.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen her colt and have a filly myself by the same stallion.

He would most definitely be registered by the Europeans if she wanted to take him there.

Seb

[showjumpers66]

Cartier,

This seems to be a bit ironic that you posted this, as we are unable to derive who YOU are from your Public Profile. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Out of curiosity, I GOOGLED "Cartier pinto Doberman sporthorse" with no luck. I am sure with a more effort I could find you, though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Let’s see, why do I inquire about people who post anonymously? One easy answer is directly from Psych 101, because de-individuation encourages contra normative behavior.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This seems to be a bit ironic that you posted this, as we are unable to derive who YOU are from your Public Profile. Out of curiosity, I GOOGLED "Cartier pinto Doberman sporthorse" with no luck. I am sure with a more effort I could find you, though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Showjumpers66,

Sorry we don't show up on your search... might be because we don’t have anything for sale, don’t have a website yet (we're working on one). But we are known... just ask The Great Belskie a.k.a Ashemont or Bernie Ball a.k.a Talloaks or Melissa Mulchahey d.b.a FAS Hanoverians or or aurum a.k.a. Gwen Gregorio d.b.a. Gestüt Falkenhorst.

So, what’d ya want to know about us?

[showjumpers66]

A copy of your last tax return will be fine. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[jumpgirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You are basically describing pet quality stock, and reputable breeders sell pet quality stock on Limited Registrations, which means that the AKC will not register offspring of dogs that the breeder feels are NOT of breeding quality. Reputable breeders do not make assumptions about whether pet quality animals will contribute to the gene pool <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess the Jack Russell breeders should be shot then. Ok, maybe there are some but Jackies have not been, until maybe very recently, recognized by the AKC is the point I'm making.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But we are known... just ask The Great Belskie a.k.a Ashemont or Bernie Ball a.k.a Talloaks or Melissa Mulchahey d.b.a FAS Hanoverians or or aurum a.k.a. Gwen Gregorio d.b.a. Gestüt Falkenhorst. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So is this another one of those clickish wb breeder situations? I don't mean to diminish any of you, but you guys are hardly the core truth of warmblood breeding.

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A copy of your last tax return will be fine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh I'm afraid you would be disappointed… I know I was. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I guess the Jack Russell breeders should be shot then. Ok, maybe there are some but Jackies have not been, until maybe very recently, recognized by the AKC is the point I'm making. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So is this another one of those clickish wb breeder situations? I don't mean to diminish any of you, but you guys are hardly the core truth of warmblood breeding.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now jumpgirl, you seem to have a bit of an edge tonight. Hope everything is all right with you.

I don’t recall anyone suggesting anyone should be shot (including Jack Russell Terrier breeders, and btw, I believe the AKC now calls those that they register Parson’s Terriers). And I don’t think any of us consider ourselves the core of anything. You might have us confused with apples. and I'm being silly 'cause it's Friday.


Actually, I'd be the first to say, "We ain't nothing special." And we're hardly a part of a clique ... I'd say that we know a rather eclectic group of breeders, with not much more in common than a mutual desire to breed a good horse.


In fact, we are so obscure, we can’t keep track of the one "elitist organization" we started, which I was a founding member of. It took me almost 24 hours to even understand Belskie’s reference here. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And Cartier, what works for the AKC unfortunately will not work in the horse world - we're just not there. Heck, look at what happened to HBA!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[mmaurer]

okay, I have kept my foot out of this until now.

As for the Jrt's. AKC is the 2nd of the main registries for this breed. JRTCA is the main registry, focusing on working dogs, with no heath defects. Dogs have to have vet certificate, proven pedigree and pictures to be registered. I am a JRTCA breeder. MOST of my dogs sell on a spay/neuter contract.
Just wanted to say that because we don't use AKC doesn't make my dogs mutts.

I do however have what most of you would call a mutt stallion. He is CSHA registered, and approved for breeding. He is 1/2 Trakh, 1/4 selle fr..and hang on to your hats...1/4 paint.

A VERY long time breeder and inspector for my registry, a woman whom I respect beyond words, saw him at a show last month. "he is an excellent representative of the breed" I figure since she has been on the inspection team for more than 40 YEARS she would know. Yeap my guy doesn't have a all imported pedigree, and yes he stands at less than $1,000 ...but he has the temperment, the movement and the heart to be the winner I know he will become(he is only 4)

At his inspection were two imported stallions(14 stallions presented), one passed with a lower score, and one did not pass and was gelded. To me, just because your horse is all imported bloodlines does not mean that stallion will do better in the ring, sire better foals or has better conformation.

If someone wants to keep a talented young foal a stud prospect, hats off to them. If I want to keep my stallion whole, why would any other stallion owner care?

yeap, my mutt is great thanks. Different strokes for different folks, that is what makes the world go around.

[jumpgirl]

Sorry Cartier, I happen to like Jack Russell terriers and just why couldn't the AKC call them that anyways? The point again, is that they have been bred regardless of not being registered and the fact that many considered them "mutts".

I guess we have stuff in common, I have the desire to breed a good horse too.

[Kyzteke]

Actually, the process of registering JRTs BEFORE the AKC jumped in was very similar to the way WBs are evaluated.

#1 You had to present a pedigree of the puppy to make sure there was no inbreeding.
#2 You had to have a vet examine the puppy to make sure there were no defects such as overbites, cryptorchidism, deafness, etc.
#3 You had to submit four photos of the animal at age 1 year with measurements of height and length(no animal could be registered before the age of 1) to the JRTCA.

THEN the dog was registered. And no dog could be a conformation ("breed") champion unless they first had their medal in hunting some form of game.

The JRTCA resisted AKC recognition for YEARS, because they knew there would no longer be any real standards enforced regarding breed quality. I remember joining the the letter writing campaign. Oddly enough, one of their big arguments was that breeding for a certain "look" would ruin the breed for it's main "occupation" -- which is hunting (my JRT's main occupation is begging and sleeping on the coach, but never mind...). Then the JRTCA went on to discriminate heavily against the shorter legged JRT...many of whom were from Irish stock and could hunt their little stumpy tails off!!

So it seems this kind of thing goes round and round.

But my point is that just breeding purebred to purebred (ala AKC) does NOT offer quality.

I have no problem with a stallion who truly had a super performance career and then shows he can produce. But honestly -- how many of those are out there? I don't consider being a successful 2nd Level dressage horse anything special.

That said, I think the over-inflated prices of horse imported from Germany totally ruined the horse market here in the States. These horses aren't RARE -- there is no reason to charge that kind of money except the breeders/registries in Germany saw you guys coming and then you had to pass the expenses along to others.

Most serious riders do NOT care about pedigree in a full grown horse. They care about ability. And most cannot afford the ridiculous prices many breeders hang on their horses. So they ARE drawn to horses produced by the so-called "backyard breeders."

As long as the "backyard breeders" actually know what they are doing and aren't just blind to all the faults their darling boy happens to have, I'm ok with using those stallions. But, unfortunately, too many of them ARE blind...and they think their guy is Mr. Wonderful.

And so it goes.

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Now careful Showjumpers or Cartier might sick one of those pinto dobermans on you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
But, serously how in the world did this post go from mutt stallions to JRT???

[Cartier]

Quote from Kyzteke<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The JRTCA resisted AKC recognition for YEARS, because they knew there would no longer be any real standards enforced regarding breed quality. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe other breeds (e.g. Border Collies and Australian Shepards), felt the same way. Many of these breeders resisted inclusion into the AKC Registry for years because they feared the focus would shift away from the unique function and purpose of the breed towards a stylized silhouette that looks good for 3 minutes in the show ring.


Quote from Palomino Leopard WB<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Now careful Showjumpers or Cartier might sick one of those pinto dobermans on you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, but I don’t have one… and, not meaning to offend any Pinto Doberman breeders out there, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif but if we started breeding Pinto Dobermans the DPCA would kick us out of the club (especially with the bloodline we have). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif And our Dobes just aren’t “sick ‘em material; just ask Belskie. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif After years of careful breeding, the modern Dobe is more of a “throw me the ball, throw me the ball, throw me the ball” kind of family companion. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Which is not why the breed was developed, but it keeps the lawsuits to a minimum. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

As for the rest… I find this statement useful. I think it is Raymond Oppenheimer’s and he was probably referring to Bull Terriers, but it is applicable in this context. . <span class="ev_code_RED">A good horse makes a good pedigree…not the other way around. </span>

Still, quality has to come from somewhere in the pedigree… it won’t typically occur by spontaneous generation.

[jumpgirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Many of these breeders resisted inclusion into the AKC Registry for years because they feared the focus would shift away from the unique function and purpose of the breed towards a stylized silhouette that looks good for 3 minutes in the show ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean, kind of like trotting a horse around a triangle for less than 3 minutes and ranking top 10 in the country? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You mean, kind of like trotting a horse around a triangle for less than 3 minutes and ranking top 10 in the country? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I owned a Nationally ranked Top Ten Triangle Trotting Equine I might see some merit in the accolade. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I don’t. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif But, for what it’s worth... in those 3 minutes the judge is (hopefully) observing the structure and movement of the quadruped, which isn’t necessarily a meritless observation. Now, if your point is that the 3 Minute Triangle Championship can’t be the only accolade of a breeding animal... I agree. A performance career is an essential component of the total picture.

[jumpgirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A performance career is an essential component of the total picture. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh boy! I agree wholeheartedly. But unfortunately, that is not the case with too many quasi-european registry warmblood fans. For example, take Riverman. Beautiful stallion, getting HOW many mares per year from the "approved" european warmblood set? I've heard between 100-200. And the stallion has NO record in the show ring whatsoever. I'm not even sure that he has been shown, but maybe I'm mistaken. All he has is the 3 minute Triangle Championship to his credentials.

Also, how many stallion ads and stallion directories do you see where, under the "Performance Results" area are listed breed show wins? A LOT. Do warmblood breeders REALLY think that the 3 minute Triangle Championship is "performance" results? Apparently they do.

[jumpgirl]

Oh, one quick thing. Regarding the AWR and how it has been posted that their reputation is bad - the AWR stallion Romancer has won all those great breed shows that the quasi-european set loves so much. Here is the breakdown from his website:

2000 PVDA Grand Champion
2001 VADA NOVA Reserve Grand Champion
2001 Dressage at Devon - 1st in Breed Group (AWR)
2002 Morven Park Breed Show - Grand Champion
2002 Morven Park Dressage Show

Aren't those all the wonderful breed shows that you guys all brag about? Well a AWR stallion is beating the pants off of you.

That said, I am not interested in breeding to him, just thought it was interesting.

[mairzeadoats]

FWIW, I'm a dressage rider/trainer, not a breeder yet, if ever. (If I were a jump or event rider, I'd look for the performance equivalent.) I look at the following in (roughly) this order:

1. registration with a strong breed association
2. Correct, athletic and brilliant movement on video
also 2. performance bloodlines -- by this, I mean parents, grandparents and great grandparents that compete(d) at FEI levels and that are known to have good characters and the temperament I prefer
4. producing bloodlines -- parents, grandparents and great grandparents with a track record of producing performers
5. where applicable, high marks on inspection, particularly for gaits, rideability and character

I'm looking only at registered horses with a strong breed association for 2 reasons:

1. It helps to narrow my search from, say 3,000 misc. horses on dreamhorse.com or 3,000 horses -- all "perfect for me" -- for sale within a few hours drive, to a few dozen

2. I may want to breed someday

I ignore "premium foal" titles and don't get excited about horses ranked #1 at an inspection of 12 or even 25. A high ranking at a Verden inspection of 250 will impress me a bit. But mostly, I want to see the video and the bloodlines.

And this, of course, is all just me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Daydream Believer]

I am also a JRTCA breeder of JRT's and agree with what the others said. The AKC had to change the name of the dogs they now register to Parson Russell Terrier because the JRTCA sued them for calling them JRT's. Honestly and truly they will be two very distinct breeds in 20-30 years tempermentally and perhaps even in appearance. The fox terrier actually came from the same originial stock as the JRT's but around 1900, some folks joined the kennel club and focused on dog shows instead of fox hunting (performance versus halter...sound familiar?). Now the modern fox terrier has such a deep chest it probably could not enter a small ground nor probably has no desire to hunt. I promise you my JRT's will go-to-ground in a heartbeat after a quarry and my stud dog has his Trial certificate for that. I believe that the JRT is truly the last true working terrier breed that is used for hunting below ground.

My point is that we can draw some interesting parallels between the dogs and the horses. The folks who want something to look pretty (fox terriers and now the Parson Russells) versus the ones who wanted hunting and working terriers selected and bred for different goals and we can see how different the end products are now.

I see the same thing happening now just going to a sport horse breeding show. Everyone is so razzed over a perfect trot they forget to look at the horrible legs on some of these horses...I've seen calf knees, club feet, crooked legs, etc...also some very bad temperments and behavior..flipping over backwards, mounting and knocking down their handlers, kicking etc...on supposedly top quality WB's and I'm sorry, you couldn't give them to me. These are the same horses I see getting high scores with some of the supposedly reputable registries also. Sorry I don't buy that these horses are any better than what I have seen with my own eyes in the AWR.

We, as sport horse/pony breeders, have to keep our focus on what counts...performance. Pretty is as pretty does. I do believe in high standards but I don't believe that we have to toe the line to the Europeans to achieve that in our sport horse breeding in this country. I think we have very high quality stock and are capable of breeding something with an American flavor to it instead of exactly what the Europeans have. We are also capable of prodicing that quality without someone leading us by the hand and telling us what stallions we can and cannot breed.

[Tom King]

Just to clarify the role of the AKC to those making the comparisons. The AKC does a lot of things but their main purpose is in keeping records of purebred breedings. Being able to use Limited Registration is a great thing. To me enough incentive alone to be worth going under their umbrella. This leaves it up to the breeders to decide which animals will become breeding animals. Of course for some breeds it's too late to matter much anyway. They don't control or even try to control how the dogs look. Each National Breed Organization publishes their own standard for their breed and even teaches judges how to judge them through Judges Education Clinics. Of course the Conformation shows are just that. The dogs are judged on conformation, movement, and overall impression. Supposedly the same stuff that horses are judged on in conformation competitions. Politics within the breed are what leads to changes in what's seen in the show ring.

[CenterlineFarm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Do warmblood breeders REALLY think that the 3 minute Triangle Championship is "performance" results? Apparently they do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Jumpgirl.
I think it is pretty obvious from most people's posts that the Breed Shows are simply considered a chance to show off the horse.

I also think it has been stated over and over and over and over ad nauseum that PERFORMANCE is more important than the in-hand work.

In Riverman's case, he already stood in Germany for a few years and had extremely successfull offspring results. So breeders *might* be flocking to him because he had a PROVEN foal production record. So there you go... he had PERFORMANCE in the breeding shed, if you will.

[CuriosoJorge]

I would highly suggest not revealing one's identity to Cartier. If you do, odds are good that Cartier won't believe you anyway.

Trust me, been there, done that. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[jumpgirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> he already stood in Germany for a few years and had extremely successfull offspring results. So breeders *might* be flocking to him because he had a PROVEN foal production <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Riverman stood in Europe for a short time with NO proven offspring results - the reason, the offspring weren't old enough yet. The first "proven" offspring Riverman had was the imported sons that went to the 100 day test in the LAST American test. There have been no others. And even before those 2 stallions sons went to the American 100 day test and did somewhat well, Americans were breeding to Riverman to the tune of 100-200 mares per year. Check your facts Centerline.

Also, I don't care what a handful of people posting here are saying. I KNOW what the quasi-european registries are actually PRINTING in their stallion directories and that is breed show wins listed under performance results. Maybe you should talk to your european friends and ask why.

[CenterlineFarm]

ok. I will try this again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I said PROVEN FOAL PRODUCTION record. Not that his foals were Proven performance animals.

In case you do not know, this means that the stallion had many of his foals presented to a kuering (admittedly they are usually the nicest ones, but that is another subject). This was judged by a number of judges who are considered knowledgeable at evaluating foals, have been doing so for some time, and have looked at several thousand young horses (at least). Usually they are familiar with the bloodlines, have seen a pattern, and know what areas they are weak and strong.

They pronounced that Riverman produces (for the most part) correct, desireable, quality foals.

By the time he came here he had performed and passed his test. He had been shown at the Bundeschampionat (in fact he was the Holsteiner representative) where they are ridden and evaluated. He had 3 years worth of foal crops that were judged to be very impressive.

What else would you have a young stallion do?
What else do you suggest?
Should we all wait to breed to a stallion that has performing offspring before we breed to them?

THAT is the purpose of the tests and the keurings that you scoff so much at.

It gives breeders the chance to try a young stallion out with some kind of base-line of what you might expect.

I would argue that the production reports are as important as a stallion's individual sport record. We are getting the stallion's foals, NOT the stallion. How many super-stars are duds in the breeding shed? It has already been pointed out that, conversely, sometimes there are duds that turn out to be super-stars in the breeding shed.

I would much rather breed to a stallion that has a positive record for production than I would a super-star that has no production record whatsoever - or worse, a mediocre one.

The KWPN throws stallions off their list if they fail to produce quality, regardless of their own individual performance record.

I like that.

Jumpgirl, I have been trying to figure out what exactly your issues are.

In 2 or 3 concise sentences. Or perhaps in point form, can you state what exactly your problem is with American breeders?

Note: I have never bred to Riverman, to be honest, he is not really my type. But he is still a lovely stallion with an impressive breeding record and does not deserve to bashed on a forum like this.

edited for punctuation problems

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Also, how many stallion ads and stallion directories do you see where, under the "Performance Results" area are listed breed show wins? A LOT. Do warmblood breeders REALLY think that the 3 minute Triangle Championship is "performance" results? Apparently they do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It appears that many do



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Jumpgirl, I have been trying to figure out what exactly your issues are.

In 2 or 3 concise sentences. Or perhaps in point form, can you state what exactly your problem is with American breeders?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Centerline.

Please don’t drag this thread into a personal harangue against jumpgirl. You both have opinions worth sharing... and though you may not like (or agree with) her opinions, she makes some valid points. For example, from all those “correct, desirable, quality foals” that Riverman supposedly produced in Germany, I don’t see a whole lot of them in FEI competition. And if you’re going to trust and rely on the data from the ‘knowledgeable” judges that allegedly said his foals crop in Germany were so good, then you also have to accept their evaluation that 26 other stallions were better than Riverman (who came in 27th at his 100 DT).

I think the bottom line here is that there is merit in both of your points of view. With respect to Riverman, he does produce pretty, athletic, marketable foals. So far, after what can only be described as years of large foal crops, he has not produced the upper level horse (and I think there is more to why he was not competed than Hilltop will say), but breeders who wish to use him certainly have a large data base to draw on with respect to what he produces and if he is the right stallion for your mare, then by all means use him. For a breeding animal, it is the quality of the foal (the end result) that matters. And even though they may not be at the FEI level (yet?), the best of what Riverman produces is very nice. Also, for many breeders, he was the right stallion for his time (in this country). Who knows, he may end up being more influential as a broodmare sire than a sire of performance horses. We have seen some lovely foals out of his daughters. There was a stunning Bugatti colt out of a Riverman dam at our foal inspection. Lovely cross!

I don’t think there is (or will ever be) one stallion who has it all… and if there was, and if there was some one piece of data that guaranteed success with breeding, then we could all stop now.

[Sportpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
For a breeding animal, it is the quality of the foal (the end result) that matters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, this is the bottom line for any successful stallion and any successful breeding program.

I did my "basic training" with other breeds, without benefit of registries that had inspections, approvals, stallion testing or any of the other European systems of breeding.

I have gelded several older stallions when they did not live up to their potential. You chose the prospects on the basis of parents and bloodlines as well as individual potential. If all went well, a stallion usually started his own performance career about the same time as his first foals were on the ground.

Some got gelded at that point ... the stallion did not train well or do well in competition or the foals were not promising.

But there were one or two that did everything EXCEPT produce offspring that could go on and compete at the upper levels of whatever the discipline was even though everything prior to that seemed to work well.

And there were one or two of these stallions that even at that age ended up being gelded.

I've done the same thing with my own sportpony breeding project. I started years ago, before there were European riding ponies being imported and U.S. registries for sportponies with approvals. And I'm just now starting to put ponies out in competition, which will be the final proof of whether I've done it right or not.

As far as I'm concerned, that is really the only proof ... and a breeder often does not know for years if a particular line in the breeding program is going to be just "average" or "exceptional" ... or not work at all.

I think that's why most of the breeders I know rarely go to Las Vegas on vacation ... they have all the gambling they need in their everyday life.

[jumpgirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What else would you have a young stallion do?
What else do you suggest?
Should we all wait to breed to a stallion that has performing offspring before we breed to them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, lets see... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif How about something in his family that has actually done something? Lets look at Riverman's stamm line. Is there anything there that has performed at a higher level. No. You see, sigh, when you have young stallions, you look at what is in the family. You look at bothers and sisters, you look at the mare line, you look at what else the dam produced, you look at half brothers & half sisters, you look at uncles and aunts, you look at 3/4.... I could go on. That is what makes the next component when taking the risk of breeding to a young stallion - you can say, he has an entire family surrounding this young stallion that has proven performance. Riverman has NOTHING and yet the american breeders flocked to him. So come on, you want to say learn from the europeans, well then LEARN. Looking at the family tree is european breeding basics 101.

BTW, what Riverman is producing are some fairly nice hunters. Nothing in the top levels but good junior hunters. Seen a BUNCH of them.

[Sportpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So come on, you want to say learn from the europeans, well then LEARN. Looking at the family tree is european breeding basics 101.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really do hope I'm misinterpreting this statement and reading it wrong.

However, I'm afraid I "hear" the implication in the statement "european breeding basics 101" that somehow American horse breeders are not smart enough, intuitive enough, experienced enough ... and the American system itself is somehow not "good" enough to develop a successful breeding program. That this basic process is something American horse breeders don't understand or ignore.

There are a number of American horse breeds that have developed VERY successfully based on just this system. There are many successful American breeders capable of looking at the family tree, evaluating what several generations of horses from the background have produced and making decisions based on those statistics.

Not necessarily warmbloods. And not in certain disciplines, either. But the principle is the same regardless of breed or discipline.

Consider the generations of successful racing Thoroughbreds that are respected everywhere or Quarter Horses that have no competition in working cattle.

Even if you discount some of the American breeds for not being "sporthorses" ... you can not deny that they are very well suited for their purpose and that an American breeding program produced those breeds ... without the assistance of a "european breeding program" as a blueprint for success.

Yes ... we can learn from the europeans. But that does not mean that we have not been successful without the benefit of European imput in some cases already, either.

Like I said in an earlier post with reference to my 15 plus years experience with Rottweilers and German imports and the German breeding system ... been there, done that ... and can't say I was impressed with the inspection/approval process in that situation. I was successful with American bloodlines prior to the introduction of German lines and overall, had fewer genetic problems prior to the introduction of the imported German lines than with the American lines. And I made my selections using German production records.

Maybe I simply haven't had my quota of coffee yet this morning and am being overly thin skinned about this statement. Hopefully, you didn't mean this like it came across. But I do get quite defensive when I hear this kind of statement ...

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> think that's why most of the breeders I know rarely go to Las Vegas on vacation ... they have all the gambling they need in their everyday life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be laughing, but this is so true it's hurts.

At least with equines the breeder doesn’t typically get the buyer who wants the living embodiment of the breed standard ... guaranteed to reproduce perfect replicas of himself - free any health problems of any kind. I think most equine breeders are willing to see their animal as a cog in the wheel … a piece in the great puzzle. Dog people often want it all- right there in front of them - in one generation.

[mairzeadoats]

Ok, now I have a question. Skip past the arguments for a moment about approved vs unapproved, and stick totally to pedigree.

If a horse isn't registered with a breed association, how do you know for sure what his or her pedigree? How many generations down the line of crosses do you go before you can't get even a certificate of pedigree? How wide open a door does that lead for out and out fraud?

Since people are already in some cases claiming show records on their websites that are easily verified as false with research, how far can fraud go without a tight breed registry?

The reason I would only look at horses registered with the stronger breed associations is because, while nothing in life is 100% foolproof, at least I can be fairly certain that what the pedigree shows as parentage is true.

[Cartier]

Good point! A Certificate of Birth (or Parentage) from a well established credible registry is of value in and of itself.

[Sportpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
Good point! A Certificate of Birth (or Parentage) from a well established credible registry is of value in and of itself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I definitely agree with this and with the fact that verified parentage should be a part of any registry. And with DNA typing it should not be a major problem to verify parentage.

Although this is one of the problems I've been faced with in my sportpony breeding program. I am now into the 3rd and even 4th generation of "homebred" ponies and my breeding program started long before there was a registry that would accept these ponies. Now, obviously, ISR, RPSI and some of those that now do have a sportpony division will not accept them for a number of reasons, including the fact that their parents and/or grandparents are not from "approved" registries.

This is one reason I use AWR or AWR ... in most cases I can document the pedigree to the satisfaction of the registry. In many cases, I still have parents and/or grandparents that can be DNA typed. The foals are DNA typed and at least "most" of the pedigree can be verified.

I did raise QH and APHA horses before the advent of blood typing and DNA typing and know of a number of "swaps" with registration papers, so it happened even then, with an "official" breed registry involved. With the DNA typing now, it's possible to stop those infractions when they occur.

It's true that with an animal with 'unknown' parents, you don't have that option. But in most cases I think that the parents are known, or the grand-parents ... so the pedigree can be documented/proven ... but just not through a specific registry.

[jumpgirl]

sportpony, I'm not sure what you are drawing upon. That statement was in response to the fact that American warmblood breeders have flocked to the stallion Riverman who has an undistinguished pedigree and no performance results. I am really not sure how you came away with it applying towards the entire equine population. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Ashemont]

Sportpony -

Sharon I know this is OT but your post about the Rottweilers really confused me. I lived next door to the 26th Rottweiler to be imported to the US when I was a little girl (boy, is THAT going back a long ways!) I was very impressed with the dog and vowed I'd have one someday and have had many of them in my lifetime... but there were only 26 of them away back then. All from Germany. So while American lines might currently be different from German lines - they all came from Germany originally. Just like our warmbloods...

Now what we do with those lines and how we cross them once they are here is a different story. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Sportpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpgirl:
I am really not sure how you came away with it applying towards the entire equine population. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


A result of not enough coffee ... and a little thin-skinned as well, probably. I apologize for over-reacting ... and glad you meant it specifically and not "generically" ...

However, I do tend to over-react because I've had people say things very similar ... but they did mean it as applied to the general equine breeder population ...

Again ... my apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Cartier]

For what it’s worth… which arguably ain’t much… I too bristle at the suggestion that we American breeders are too inept, too naïve and/or too whatever to discern a good horse (and a useful pedigree).

And yet, I do think that - for whatever reason - there is a tone set by some stallion owners in this country that we can not openly discuss what is true about a given stallion (his performance and production records etc.) Again and again I read Europeans engaged in blunt, frank and objective discussions of the merit of a given stallion (and his performance and production record). And one never hears the stallion owner chime to personalize the discussion. It seems that Europeans treat breeding in a very professional manner. Here we’ve allowed certain people to frame our discussions in an overly personalized childish emotional manner. So, while I may not agree with everything Jumpgirl has written, I think her approach is refreshingly direct, factual and honest.

[fish]

I wonder if some of the trouble we have with "frank discussion" might be cultural-- i.e., a simple difference in our sense of manners vs. the Europeans. I've never been to Europe, but when my daughter came back she said that the Europeans were so honest to her when she was shopping that the first time she encountered it she thought it was rude: a shopgirl told her "you don't want to buy that dress. It lmakes you look too fat. It would look much better on your friend." I think we can all imagine how offended my daughter was at first-- and yet how quickly she came to appreciate being saved from buying clothing that made her look fat!

Just a suggestion-- anyone else been there and seen similar cultural differences?

[Cartier]

Certainly could be cultural… some have an ethic which says that fawning and effusive praise are “polite.” And, in some contexts that may be so.. for example, I would not tell a friend that I thought her newborn babe looks like a quid (or whatever)… but in the context of breeding, I think we have to be willing to be more direct and candid.

One aspect of excessive use of effusive praise is that it undermines the value of the commentators opinion. We tend to value praise that is more rarely given (or more difficult to come by). For example, when someone not prone to effusive praise compliments one of our dogs or horses it is more valuable to us than praise from those who routinely gush and bubble.

[jumpgirl]

Thanks Cartier, I don't mind agreeing to disagree. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As far as American breeders, I think we have bred some of the best TBs on the face of the planet. I know we can apply the 100s of years of experience to warmblood breeding without problem. The "expertise" that the europeans have shown is easily observed, researched and learned. And they really have no problems with working with american breeders regardless of if we register our horses with their offshoot registry or with our own american registry.

My sincere wish is that american warmblood breeders unite so we can have more power, more money, more more more. Fragmenting us all into tiny little cash strapped registries will never get us anywhere - and believe me, ALLLL the registries worry about money- the AHHA, BWP, NaWPN, ATA, allllll of them.

And why do we insist that we have to have those european registries? Because we need thier expertise? Well, as one poster somewhere along the line commented, the AHHA's inspectors are with the exception of one, all american, as are many of the inspectors with many of the other registries. And it is the europeans that want us to develop more of our own inpsectors and our own breed show judges.

So, bottem line, if we are going to develop our own inspectors and judges, why register them with a multitude of overseas registiesy? We could do so much better united in one.

[fish]

Thank you, Jumpgirl. I think THAT's well-said. I, too, have no problem with "the American breeder"-- but with what seems to me the amounts of money being wasted. I simply don't understand people who go to inspections, come back saying "I've got a truckload of awards, but it cost me a fortune -- and the market doesn't care"-- only to go back and do it again the next year.
One of the things I like about this country is that, at least for the time being, you don't have to be rich to own and breed horses-- even really nice ones. Those of us who are a long way from rich, though, really do have to establish some priorities: If I have $1000 to spend, I'm going to spend it on feed, fencing, training, farriery, etc., etc., etc. (lord, we all know the list!!)-- a long, long, long time before I take another horse to an inspection.... I simply have not seen anything to convince me that the $ spent on inspections produces anything resembling a reasonable return.

Meanwhile, I'd love to pay for DNA testing and contribute to a reliable database so that all of us can have our horses' bloodlines and performance records verified and documented in a trustworthy, hype-free manner comparable to what the J.C. does with TB's and their racing/produce records.

[Sportpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ashemont:
Sportpony -

Sharon I know this is OT but your post about the Rottweilers really confused me. &lt;snip&gt; So while American lines might currently be different from German lines - they all came from Germany originally. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pat ... I may not have been all that clear. True, Rottweilers were developed in Germany so all the American lines did originally come from there.

However, I was referring to my "beginning" in Rotts in the mid-70s when there were a number of American breeders and most American bred Rotts were usually a number of generations away from the original German imports. Those were the "American lines" I was referring to that I had such good luck with and liked so well.

There was a sudden influx of "new" German imports when the Rotts suddenly started gaining a lot of popularity, starting in the early 80s. This is when I added imports direct from Germany ... or first generation offspring from direct imports ... to the original "American" lines I had started with. And it was these lines, those imported in the 1980s from Germany, that I had problems with.

So the dogs I had the difficulties with were not my original foundation breeding stock from American breeders but the German-bred dogs that were imported in much greater numbers during the 1980s.

[Ashemont]

Hmmmmm.... this sounds almost exactly like what someone was saying to me about horses the other day! They had just been to Germany and said they were very surprised to find that due to concentrations of 3 lines (Donnerhall, Rubenstein, Weltmeyer) in the German horses they saw they felt horses they were seeing in states were more improved. (!) This was from a very knowledgeable breeder too.

[jhodkin]

Just to lighten this thread a bit - and seeing as we seem to have moved onto Rottie's, here's a couple of piccies of my boys with the foals this year...

Hooch & Polly (http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk/M%20-%20Polly14.8.4.jpg)

Hooch, Harry & Polly (http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk/M%20-%20Polly14.8.1.jpg)

Harry & Bella (http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk/M%20-%20Bella14.8.2.jpg)

Makes me smile anyway ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Julia
Future Sport Horses - Event Horse Breeders (http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk)

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ashemont:
Hmmmmm.... this sounds almost exactly like what someone was saying to me about horses the other day! They had just been to Germany and said they were very surprised to find that due to concentrations of 3 lines (Donnerhall, Rubenstein, Weltmeyer) in the German horses they saw they felt horses they were seeing in states were more improved. (!) This was from a very knowledgeable breeder too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Pat, I'm having trouble following this. Did they mean that D/R/W lines from Germany imported to the U.S. improved U.S. horses?

Or that Germany relies too much on D/R/W lines, so U.S. horses are starting to look better than German horses?

[fish]

"Sorry, Pat, I'm having trouble following this."

I think I understand what Pat's trying to say-- i.e. that the Germans/Europeans are shrinking their gene pool by overusing these 3 lines-- but I don't think this is really the case. They are, IMO, much better breeders than that. First, there are lots of other lines that are being just as extensively used (e.g., Corde, Landgraff, Utrillo, Alme), and, secondly, as soon as this sort of thing starts to happen, the registries make a point of seeking out and bringing in desireable outcrosses-- e.g., I read recently that Holstein has brought in Lauries Crusader in an effort to provide an outcross to the Corde/Landgraff which is omnipresent in their horses, that Hanover was bringing in Holsteiners, etc. Certainly the Dutch borrow from everyone.
This is one of the many positive things I see the Europeans as doing from the beginning-- SEEKING the right types to continually improve their horses-- whether they be Arabs, TB's, Anglo-Arabs, old style carriage horses, stallions in other registries, or even "unknown"-- and thereby continuing the improvement-- and hybrid vigor-- that's put them where they are in the first place. I know this may sound like an invitation for another flaming, but I think this is a long way from what the American registries are doing: i.e. making registrations entirely dependent on the owners' willingness to pay a lot of $ for already registered horses, presentations, etc., combined with the imposition of "standards" which can be pretty difficult to decipher and in the case of some registries often seem highly political and/or close to non-existent.

Personally, I think that part of the reason why the Europeans can do so well is that their judges ARE from the same region, as are their members and boards-- so that their conversations about and contact with the needs of their horses and registries are ongoing and in the best interests of their home areas-- instead of being made annually in response to pronouncements and horses coming coming from afar and then dispersing again until the next year.
Yes-- I think our horses (both registered and unregistered) have improved enormously, but I think we've got a long way to go -- and the Europeans will have to mess up more than they're likely to -- before our horses and breeding programs surpass theirs.

[Cartier]

Julia,
Just had to sneak in here that I love the photo of Harry and Bella... beautiful dogs .. and horses too of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I am busy this morning writing a tome on breeding Dobermans in India… so back to your discussion…

[Ashemont]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sorry, Pat, I'm having trouble following this. Did they mean that D/R/W lines from Germany imported to the U.S. improved U.S. horses?

Or that Germany relies too much on D/R/W lines, so U.S. horses are starting to look better than German horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As fish has commented, I meant the latter. As stated, this was an observation by a knowledgeable breeder after a trip to Germany. It was reinforced not only by what this breeder saw but by comments from the German breeders she had contact with. Not a valid sampling or anything, but perrhaps just a hint that things aren't always better in Germany,

The diverity of lines and hybrid-vigor we see here can certainly be an advantage in moving the dvelopment along. We just have to be very judicious in our choices.

I already have at least one mare that the Verband has tried to talk me into selling back to Germany for 3 years now... She is the product of combining the best in Germany with some good American-breds. The American way has always been to take what others had and make it better so why can't we do it with the horses?

I personally think many breeders ARE already doing this. We just need to get more recognition for the American-breds so that it will become as pretigious for buyers to shop locally as it is perceived to be to import.

Cartier, I can tell you about breeding Lahsa Apsos in Inida... and showing them there... if that will help? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Bundy]

Posted by Flying Hearts-
"In February I will be taking him to his first show for an in hand class at Paxton, and then a few more in the local circuit for the experience. I will take him to bigger shows if he does well here."

Shawn - be aware that these shows are local schooling shows and are not recognized USDF shows or USDF breed shows. They will not have licensed judges or DHSB breed show judges. They use local L program graduates (which are not judges BTW). So I would not place any significant value in the results from these shows. Best to wait until May and attend the KDA breed show - which is recognized and will have some good breeder judges as usual.

Also - be aware that success 'on the line' for colts doesn't necessarily translate into stallion approval. I know of several young stallions, big winners at Devon etc, that still were not approved for breeding by their registries.

[pwynnnorman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Breeding Unregistered, Unapproved, and/or Unproven stock is the DEFINITION of back-yard breeding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I skimmed through the subsequent posts, but as far as I could notice, I'm amazed that no one commented on this.

Centerline, do you really believe this or did that just come out a bit wrong? I mean, really, whose dictionary are you using anyway? And what sport are you (indeed, I wonder what sport(s) EVERYONE on this thread) are possibly talking about? Without considering what the heck "performance" means, how can anyone's comments even make much sense? There's no context here, folks.

What I mean is, I don't want to start getting down on anyone just because they are talking about perhaps the only sport they know very well. (Like Eros--he's a Thoroughbred show jumper and is undoubtedly valued way, way up there.) And in eventing, which is arguably the most physically challenging (as in proving via performance) equestrian sport out there, "approved" etc. sires of successful event horses are almost UNHEARD of, which really makes such points moot if eventing is the sport used to determine performance.

Similarly with show jumping--while there is an abundance of WBs, there are still a slew of AQHAs, TBs, even ApHCs and IAHAs out there, plus tons of crossbreds, etc., etc. So again, I ask: what do you mean by performance? By "proven"? I scoff at most stallion owners' opinions of "proof" simply because I don't agree with what I THINK they mean, but that may be unfair of me because I don't really understand (and I'm not sure THEY do) what they mean by "proven."

Oh, and lastly, in the 20 years I've been breeding I've never owned or even leased a facility where you didn't have to drive past the barns to get to the house. Does that mean I've never had a "backyard" operation? Or perhaps you mean "backyard BUDGET"--if that's the case, then I actually agree with you and am MOST PROUD of it, given what my program has produced!

(And not shy to say that, yes, those of us who are knowledgeable and skilled and experienced do get quite, quite unpleasant when people who seem to have more money than sense start getting hyper-judgemental.)

[equestrielle]

The OP was asking if there was a market for her colt as a stallion ... and the answer to that is probably no, for all the reasons given (mainly because there are so many other stallions standing that hers would need to stand out as exceptional given the drawback of his mixed bloodlines).

However, there is always room for individuals that may not have the credentials in pedigree to make improvements in the horse population, siring atheletic horses with good minds. So if the OP poster feels that her colt will add temperament, correctness or atheletic ability to a variety of mares, I say why not.

Times have certainly changed, from the days when you bred to what was close to you or spent a fortune trucking a horse all over the country to get to a stallion you wanted. Now with FedEx, AI and frozen, mare owners can breed to any stallion they choose to. I am all for genetic diversity, so I don't think just because a stallion has not got a big name pedigree you should write him off.

We are much more willing to take chances on our mediocre mares (now that's going to start a whole other flame fest) than stallions, but it's a reality that the mare is probably going to have a much less stellar pedigree or performance history than the stallion in many breeding decisions.

I think the biggest concern with "backyard breeding" in my opinion is that it produces mediocre horses that end up not ever having a job to do, that end up in the lower echelons of the horse world, in a bad life of some kind. I would hate to think any horse I bred would end up at a local sale being sold for $600 to someone who wouldn't feed or care for him. And if you breed poor horses, the odds of this happening are much less than if you breed athletic horses with good minds that are suitable for all kinds of riders.

Sam Welton was mentioned a couple of times in this thread, and I think he is a good example of an individual who had a vision of a horse that he would like to produce, and did so crossing bloodlines, but coupled it with lots of research and dedication.

Producing more horses just to make money for yourself is not a good breeding goal; making money to produce horses that you love and are proud of is a good ambition. So that would be part of my decision to keep a horse a stallion.

[jumpgirl]

pwynnorman, I guess some of us addressed it in a more round about way. According to that definition of back-yard breeding, almost all american warmblood breeders would fall into that category since the poster uses "and/or unproven stock" as part of the criteria.

Also, most am. warmblood breeders are pretty small "backyard" operations. According to the poster, the only people who would not be considered "backyard" are farms such as Hilltop, Ironspring, and a very small handful of others.

The europeans too, bred their farm mares - unregistered and unapproved - for many many years to create the type before the registries were set up and the approval process there became the well-oiled machine that it is today.

Most 4 star 3 day horses are crosses from unapproved and unregistered stock - Irish draughts crossed with TBs, TBs crossed with connemara, unapproved TBs crossed with ID, etc.

I think if the poster takes a good look around, they might just change their opinion. Sometimes warmblood breeders get so caught up in the very SMALL world of approved warmblood breeding, they lose sight of the very large world around them.

[pwynnnorman]

That's why, upon second inspection, I decided that maybe the post was just a slip up in wording. Heaven knows I've done that enough!

But I really would like to know what everyone thinks "proven" and "performance" needs to mean, especially for the OP's edification (as well as my own, of course). Actually, I kinda asked this question before on this BB--it's one I always seem to end up asking http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif !

[jhodkin]

equestrielle -
Minor correction:
I think you meant Sam Barr - he was responsible for establishing the Welton lines which he named after his original stallion Welton Gameful. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Julia
Future Sport Horses - Event Horse Breeders (http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk)

[paintedsportponies]

I have been following this topic with much interest. I have been a longtime successful hobby breeder of high quality hunter ponies and bought two of my own stallions this year and enlarged my mare herd.

My goal is to breed what really lights my fire and I know is extremely marketable and that is flashy athletic ponies. One of the stallions I purchased is a "mutt" by the standards set on the thread although his bloodlines would be more than acceptible with most registries that are accepting pony's.

His mother was a pinto Dutch Warmblood/TB X who was never inspected because pintos were not accepted into that book and other alternatives were not available back then. She does have a certified pedigree from the NA-WPN however for whatever that is worth to mare owners. She ended up doing very well in the "A" circuit hunter ring and has been a broodmare for top hunter ponies since and never did get inspected. There is waiting list for her foals out of this mare which may or may not be a better indicator to me that she produces quality than some inspections.

His sire is a registered 1/2 welsh/TBX that has produced numerous winners on the A circuit and in hand at Devon. He consistently throws quality, type and athleticism and has over a hundred babies on the ground with many performing around the country.

Most pony registries require that both sire and dam of a stallion be inspected and approved and that would be a huge expense and hardship for the current owners of my stallion's sire and dam. It is not out of the question and is being discussed between us but I would have to bear all expenses for preparation and all fees and costs.

I am going to have Artie inspected by the ASPR and will register him with SHOC along with his current registration with the Pinto Association. I am still on the fence on whether I should pony up additional thousands for other pony registries at this point as they require the inspection of his sire and dam who is many states away and they have ZERO interest personally (they have no problem getting their ponies sold without the inspections and papers).

For the record my stallion completed and passed the Pony Test at Paxton Farm despite the fact that he had only been under saddle 2 months before his arrival. Artie is now in training with Jen Holling and will be competing in the toughest of all disciplines as an eventing pony when he is not in the breeding shed.

I have a pedigree and will have a proven performance record and in a short while will have a foal crop on the ground. If he doesn't produce like I believe he will I will have a very, very nice gelding for sale! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In my case, I don't know how valuable the additional registries would be unless some
mare owners clamored for me to do it.

I am very interested in opinions from both pony stallion and mare owners on this subject... especially as to what they think the future holds for them and in general abd what experiences they have had with the various registries.

Thanks!

Cathy

[Cartier]

Cathy,
Sounds like you're on the right track.. good luck with both your boys. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[CoolMeadows]

I don't want to be contrary, but Eros' ability is not entirely flukey. http://www.holsteiner.com/impulsion/bayron2.html:
"Khaled's most important son was the Derby winner, Swaps, whose pedigree boasts two separate branches of the Bay Ronald line---once through his sire Khaled and again through his dam, Iron Reward, a daughter of Beau Pere. Swaps' son, Kudu, sired the Canadian Equestrian Team horse, Stoic. Tudor Success, dam of Anne Kursinski's Olympic horse, Eros--winner of the Grand Prix of Monterrey, and 2nd in the Grand Prix of Aachen--is by the Swaps son Mambrino (Swaps/Turn-to). In fact, Mambrino's dam, Success is a half sister to both Bold Ruler and Independence a champion steeplechase horse and sire. Karen O'Connor's Worth the Trust, winner of the Rolex Kentucky CCI*** is a grandson of Swaps' son, No Robbery, who also is an influential sire of dressage horses in North America."

And from http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/bayronald/bayronald.html
"Another Hyperion son, Khaled has through his sons, sired the jumpers, Black Market and Encore (winner of the Grand Prix at Fontainebleau and a USET team member). Khaled’s most important son was the Derby winner Swaps, whose pedigree boasts two branches of the Bay Ronald line, through Khalad and also through his dam, Iron Reward, a daughter of Beau Pere. Swaps’ son, Kudu sired the Canadian equestrian team horse, Stoic. Tudor Success, dam of Anne Kursinski’s Olympic horse, Eros, is by the Swaps son Marbrino."

I know there's more of his pedigree linking him to other world class jumpers, but I can't find it right now.

[fish]

It's very difficult to find a TB who does NOT have famous names in the bloodlines someplace... which is one of the reasons that looking up their pedigrees can be so much fun http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Certainly any colt with the kind of career and fame of Swaps had ample opportunity to produce countless offspring--- some of which were nice horses but Lord knows, I've seen plenty of Swaps babies that weren't worth much either as race or show horses, and certainly have my doubts that Swaps accounts for very much in a horse like Eros. As TB stallions go, Swaps was far from being a resounding success as a sire-- either racehorse or sporthorse. In today's TB world, breeders rarely bother to go back that far anyway unless they're uniquely avid about crossing certain lines. Horses with Hyperion, Nearco, Khaled, etc. in their pedigrees are, after all, so commonplace that it's harder to find horses WITHOUT these names than with them.

Along these lines, I found rather silly an article I read a few years back on the "grand pedigree" of Grandeur-- which goes on and on about the presence of "Derby Winner" Forward Pass in the pedigree. Fact is that Forward Pass' one claim to distinction is rather sad: he's the only horse in history to have won the Derby on disqualification (of Dancer's Image), and went on to be completely undistinguished at stud.

[CoolMeadows]

You're right about the common pedigrees fish. I know I saw Eros' pedigree a couple of years ago and he had someone pretty obscure, not as common as Swaps that has produced some really top class jumpers. I think the article said it was a line the Pessoa's looked to. Maybe the name started with a J? I can't find it anymore..

[fish]

yes-- sometimes (in fact, I'd say most of the time), it's these relatively "obscure" names we need to look at-- you know, the ones who ended up being great sporthorse sources in large part because they did NOT make big names for themselves in racing... horses like Clavier, BoldMc, etc., here, and Mytens, Lauries Crudsader, Heraldik, etc., in Europe. I just think it's unfortunate that the Europeans have so much better a job of promoting their sporthorse TB sires that we have ours-- in spite of the fact that they're actually from the same families.

[jumpgirl]

and the fact that the europeans have been over here shopping for TB stallions but tell us not to breed to them. Then try and sell us back the "refined" halfbloods that those stallions produce.

[fish]

Jumpgirl-- perhaps we should be looking into our own bloodlines to see if we're related!? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[jumpgirl]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one seeing and hearing all this "stuff". It is nice to see others who have realized it too. I really think that so many breeders have so much invested in believing the mantra, they just don't want to know.

[Kyzteke]

I already have at least one mare
that he Verband has tried to talk me
into selling back to Germany for 3 years
now...


I didn't know Verbands bought mares. I thought they just bought stallions...

[Ashemont]

The Verbands don't buy mares OR stallions that I know of. Verband means 'organizations'. In my mare's case they want me to sell her to a breeder in Germany. This would be the 2nd mare that's aroused such interest: the first is already in Germany http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[fish]

" I really think that so many breeders have so much invested in believing the mantra, they just don't want to know."

My feelings precisely!!!! Do you remember when they had Americans believing that conformation standards were different for WB's than other sporthorses--- actually read in Practical Horseman that short pasterns and flat croups (maybe oversized heads, too) just weren't as problematic in WB's as they were in "our" horses!!???!! Yep-- 10-15 years ago, pretty horses were suspect (especially if they were bred here)-- now that we can buy them from Europe, they're the "modern type."

I remember George Morris commenting when the WB's first started coming in that the WB's were going to take over the market "because it costs so much to buy a good TB." Then the bottom fell out of the TB market in the mid- 80's--but by that time the Europeans had us so bamboozled that show horse people were willing to pay twice the money for an inferior WB that they would for a good TB. It's a pretty interesting story-- somebody ought to do a Masters thesis in marketing on it someday.

P.S. I think one of the amusing bits going on now is the business about "not wanting to breed hunter types"--- and keeping them out of the Registries here-- despite the fact that that "hunter types" are precisely what the majority of our market wants-- and, guess what, they ARE approving "hunter types" in Europe-- where our moneyed hunter trainers are therefore doing a lot of shopping!! Fact is, (IMHO, of course), flamboyant knee action is not even particularly desireable in dressage-- Bonfire won IN SPITE OF his movement, not because of it.

[jumpgirl]

My first exposure to warmbloods was approx. 22 years ago when the resident dressage trainer/rider at the facility I boarded & trained at imported a 4 year old warmblood stallion. I was in love. He was absolutely everything that a horse should be.

In later years, I watched the different warmblood registries form, fall apart, and reform. I knew a hanoverian stallion owner here in the US "get" nasty, broken down, wreckages of TB mares "approved" with the AHS to breed to her stallion. She didn't care about quality, she wanted breedings and anything crossed with a warmblood stallion made money anyways and the registry needed mare owners no matter what the mare. I watched political games, watched breed show awards get switched to a "different, lesser" prize when the registry's official's stallion's get wasn't the one who won. Was absolutely horrified when the Oldenburg Verband joined up with the ISR because the ISR had such a "common" (as in anything is approved) reputation - kind of like the AWR has today.

And now, Fish, here is where we disagree, I don't think hunters should be included in the warmblood registries. However, I don't see a problem with them approved if they are in a different book - just something to keep the type separate and I do think there is a different type.

I do think that it is absolutely laughable for Hunters to be approved by countries that don't even HAVE hunters. Look, the whole arguement I'm told, behind wanting to have these quasi-european registries is because we "need" their 100's of years of breeding international level horses. Well, how in the heck does that apply to hunters? We should be teaching them. Why don't we go set up the American Hunter Warmblood Association in Hanover and see how many Germans join!

[fish]

"I don't think hunters should be included in the warmblood registries. However, I don't see a problem with them approved if they are in a different book" -

And I don't understand why we need "registries" or books at all. Why can't we just have a data base that tracks show records and pedigrees (and maybe even keeps videos available) so that people can use that to decide what "types" they want to breed-- however we choose to define them.

And, yes, I have noticed on other threads that we do disagree about the supposed differences between jumpers and hunters. You see, I come from a tradition of horsemanship in which both horses and riders started in the hunter ring (after learning basic dressage to at least 2nd level-- plus the changes)-- and learned to go steadily, and in good form, before heading for the higher fences and speed (...if they weren't so pretty and valuable as hunters or equitation horses, that is, to keep them out of the jumpers). My "type" of horse (and rider) is, therefore, the one that can do it all --- and do it all well-- horses like Starman, who came home from the Olympics to be Grand Champion Conformation Hunter at Palm Beach-- and I daresay could have gone out and won his share of dressage tests, too. These kinds of horses are no where near as rare as many would lead us to believe... it's riders and trainers who have the skills (and time) to take them all the places they could go that are truly rare! As a recent post on a Warmblood website mentioned, the same qualities that make a good jumper also make a good dressage horse-- and, I would add-- a good hunter, too... reach, scope, thrust, balance, suppleness, adjustabilty, economy and elegance of movement, agility. What characteristic of a good horse in any of these disciplines is there that would be anything but an asset in any of the others? There are, admittedly, some jumpers who do not have the form to be competitive either as hunters or as dressage horses, but I daresay they are good jumpers DESPITE such deficits, not because of them. Likewise, I'm sure there are some dressage horses lacking jumping talent, and hunters that don't have the scope to be jumpers or brilliance to be dressage horses, but it's my personal belief, that that's not the best of them... and that they would actually be better at their own discipline if they had the qualities necessary for the others. There are, many horses of "hunter type" (large, pretty ones who move both with suspension and without a flamboyant knee) who will be sought after in all three arenas. That's the "type" I was once in my life fortunate enough to own, the type I most enjoy and admire. It's therefore the "type" I bought, bred to, and the "type" I hope my colt turns out to be. I have yet to see the registries here saying or doing much of anything relevant to my goals.

[Daydream Believer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fish:

Then the bottom fell out of the TB market in the mid- 80's--but by that time the Europeans had us so bamboozled that show horse people were willing to pay twice the money for an inferior WB that they would for a good TB. It's a pretty interesting story-- somebody ought to do a Masters thesis in marketing on it someday.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, did you hit that nail on the head. I see that happening alot. Folks...talking mainly amateurs here.... will pay an enormous amount of money just to own a mediocre warmblood and will pass on other superior individuals of other breeds that might have even cost less just because they have a preconceived notion of what they have to have to be competitive.

[jumpgirl]

fish, I see your point. I believe that a database is more important than a registry. However, I think a good solid american warmblood registry could provide so many really neat stuff! I love going to europe to the stallion approvals, auctions, testings and other events. Also, the large successful events that many private farms put together would not be possible without the strong help and promotion that the registries provide for them. I'd like to see some of that here.

As for hunters, I grew up riding hunters, switched to dressage, then to jumpers with a little 3day stuff thrown in for fun. I moved away from the Dutch registry when they started getting so carried away with those really high kneed animated trots that they like so well. The stallions that they are wowing over are starting to look like gaited horses....shudder. I can not for the life of me, see how you can throw in the flat kneed moving hunters into that mix.

I agree that there are many many horses that can do it all. I believe Abdullah - grey trakehner (olympics) - competed up through the hunter ranks successfully. I also remember a Practical Horseman article that had interviews with some of the Olympic riders who lamented about the really good horses in the U.S. were bought up by rich amateaurs and , as a result, the horses never went anywhere. Meanwhile the pros were scrimping together monies from multiple investors in hopes of trying to get what they could.

[WhiteCamry]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STF:
...with great bloodlines on both mare and dam side ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


???

[Karosel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jumpgirl:

I agree that there are many many horses that can do it all. I believe Abdullah - grey trakehner (olympics) - competed up through the hunter ranks successfully. QUOTE]

He evented too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[fish]

Yay, jumpgirl http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I see we've returned to the "like minds" track. Personally, I think that those high-kneed "dressage horses" reflect a complete misunderstanding of what dressage is all about-- in fact, I've heard Cindy Sydnor postulate that the American Saddlebred was actually based on a similar misunderstanding of the sport and its goals. If the success of horses like Bonfire is going to lead breeeders to seek out horses with that kind of movement (which is NOT, I've been told, what the judges liked at all about that horse), I think they should just cut to the chase and go directly to park horse stallions. If the dressage world is going to abandon "harmony, lightness and freedom of movement" -- not to mention "relaxation" in favor of Park Horse animation, I'm DEFINITELY getting out of dressage and back into the hunters!!!