PDA

View Full Version : Trainer warming up a client's horses at a recognized show



duecavalle
May. 17, 2011, 03:21 PM
Is it legal for a trainer to warm up a client's horse at a USDF recognized show?

How about if the horse is entered in a qualifying class for championships?

I know at a regional championship no one but you is allowed on your horse for the duration of the show, just curious about the rest of the shows.

CHT
May. 17, 2011, 03:29 PM
Was the trainer entered as a rider in any classes?

duecavalle
May. 17, 2011, 03:30 PM
Was the trainer entered as a rider in any classes?

Nope. :)

mjhco
May. 17, 2011, 03:36 PM
It is legal for anyone to warm up anyone else's horse at a USDF show UNLESS

1. they are competing in championships (USDF regional or GMO regional)

2. if the individual show does not allow it.

duecavalle
May. 17, 2011, 03:40 PM
It is legal for anyone to warm up anyone else's horse at a USDF show UNLESS

1. they are competing in championships (USDF regional or GMO regional)

2. if the individual show does not allow it.

Thank you. Is it common for shows to disallow it?

CHT
May. 17, 2011, 03:45 PM
Interesting. That is different than in Canada; at a Silver or Gold show, only the competitor(s) my ride/school the horse. A groom may only ride on a loose rein. I think the exception would be a para-equestrian depending on their grade.

Suprised to read that the rules are different between countries; I thought we just copied the US rules!

mjhco
May. 17, 2011, 04:18 PM
Thank you. Is it common for shows to disallow it?

In the US not common to disallow it at the regular USDF shows.

Championships, ALWAYS disallowed for those horses entered in championship classes.

In fact, the USDF Regional rules are such that those horses competing in the Regional Championship classes must be on the show grounds 24 hours prior to competing.

Evidently some were schooling horses in facilities minutes from the show grounds, hauling over right before competition then competing.

duecavalle
May. 17, 2011, 05:20 PM
In the US not common to disallow it at the regular USDF shows.

Championships, ALWAYS disallowed for those horses entered in championship classes.

In fact, the USDF Regional rules are such that those horses competing in the Regional Championship classes must be on the show grounds 24 hours prior to competing.

Evidently some were schooling horses in facilities minutes from the show grounds, hauling over right before competition then competing.

Thank you. Yes, I understand the rules for Championships.

I am questioning the "regular" recognized shows throughout the season with qualifying classes FOR championships.

I warm up my own horse so its never been a concern. I am asking for a friend who's showing recognized for the first time this year with a new horse.

If anyone can point me to this in the rule book I'd be grateful.

mjhco
May. 17, 2011, 05:38 PM
Go to USEF.org

Enjoy

Janet
May. 17, 2011, 05:43 PM
If anyone can point me to this in the rule book I'd be grateful.
DR121 14 (High performance)
DR127.6 (championships)

Big Spender
May. 17, 2011, 06:12 PM
In fact, the USDF Regional rules are such that those horses competing in the Regional Championship classes must be on the show grounds 24 hours prior to competing.



I hope this isn't true, because I drove 2 hours to my Regionals last year for First Level, showed and drove home. I cannot find anywhere in the rules that the horses must be on the grounds 24 hours prior to competing. :confused:

Big Spender
May. 17, 2011, 06:17 PM
All horses competing in Regional Championships classes must remain on the competition grounds from the time of entry to the grounds and for the duration of their Regional Championships classes. If required to remain overnight, horses must be stabled on the competition grounds.

This is what I found in the rulebook. What exactly does it mean?

SerenaGinger
May. 17, 2011, 06:30 PM
All horses competing in Regional Championships classes must remain on the competition grounds from the time of entry to the grounds and for the duration of their Regional Championships classes. If required to remain overnight, horses must be stabled on the competition grounds.

This is all I could find. I wonder if each region can add more rules about stabling?

duecavalle
May. 17, 2011, 06:31 PM
DR121 14 (High performance)
DR127.6 (championships)

Janet, thank you for the locations in the rule book. Unfortunately the answer to my question is still not clear to me.

DR127.6 is crystal clear. It is completely understood that once at a Regional Championship, no one but the rider is allowed to ride or work the horse. This was not my question.

My question pertains to the "GAIG/USDF/Qualify" class one must ride in to qualify for a Regional Championship. Is it legal for anyone other than the rider to warm up the horse prior to these classes?

DR121 14 states:

14. The following rules apply exclusively to USEF High Performance qualifying and selection
trials, and observation classes.
a. Upon arrival on the showground, only the rider when riding, walking, leading or lungeing
a horse (lunge whip allowed) is allowed to carry a whip (maximum 120 cm) anywhere
on the showground. The groom may also walk, lead and lunge a horse as above. Other
parties are allowed to carry a whip, provided it is not in connection with the training of the
horse. Under no circumstance is it allowed to school the horses in the stables.
b. The whip must be dropped before entering the space around the competition arena
or the rider will be penalized for an error (see DR122.5h).
c. The following bits are permitted for use either as a snaffle or bridoon: (Snaffle or
bridoon with rotating middle piece)
Snaffle or bridoon rotary bit with rotating middle piece.
d. Curb chain hooks must not be fixed.


Can someone tell me if class #28 on this (http://www.equine.unh.edu/sites/equine.unh.edu/files/docs/2011JunePrizelist_0.pdf) prize list considered a "USEF High Performance qualifying and selection trials, and observation classe(s)" ?

yaya
May. 17, 2011, 06:45 PM
No. First Level is not "high performance". High Performance is things like World Cup qualifiers, Pan Am Selection trials, stuff like that.

It is perfectly legal for a trainer to warm up a client's horse for a regional championships qualifying class, of any level.

SerenaGinger
May. 17, 2011, 06:48 PM
Unfortunately the answer to my question is still not clear to me.

My question pertains to the "GAIG/USDF/Qualify" class one must ride in to qualify for a Regional Championship. Is it legal for anyone other than the rider to warm up the horse prior to these classes?

Can someone tell me if class #28 on this (http://www.equine.unh.edu/sites/equine.unh.edu/files/docs/2011JunePrizelist_0.pdf) prize list considered a "USEF High Performance qualifying and selection trials, and observation classe(s)" ?

I believe that "USEF High Performance qualifying and selection trials" means qualifying for national championships at Gladstone, Pan Am, ect.

When you have a question about permission to do something that is only answered by the lack of a rule against it, your best bet would be to email the USEF, get a written reply that states you can do XYZ, and bring a print out of that to the show in case you are questioned there.

SillyHorse
May. 17, 2011, 07:04 PM
No. First Level is not "high performance". High Performance is things like World Cup qualifiers, Pan Am Selection trials, stuff like that.

It is perfectly legal for a trainer to warm up a client's horse for a regional championships qualifying class, of any level.
Just so it doesn't get lost in the thread, this is the correct answer. :yes:

duecavalle
May. 17, 2011, 07:46 PM
Just so it doesn't get lost in the thread, this is the correct answer. :yes:

Thanks! :)

duecavalle
May. 17, 2011, 08:36 PM
No. First Level is not "high performance". High Performance is things like World Cup qualifiers, Pan Am Selection trials, stuff like that.

Thanks. I didn't think so, but the rule Janet pointed to made me think twice.


It is perfectly legal for a trainer to warm up a client's horse for a regional championships qualifying class, of any level.

super. thanks!

Janet
May. 17, 2011, 11:02 PM
High perfromance is defined in Dr 119.6

6. Definitions of USEF High Performance Program and USEF Developing Dressage Program:
a. USEF HIGH PERFORMANCE DRESSAGE PROGRAM: The purpose of this classification
is to develop and implement the USOC Strategic High Performance Plan (HPP)
with the goal of selecting athletes and/or teams and maximizing the performance of these
athletes and/or teams at Olympic, Pan American and World Championship competition
and other designated international events. The USEF High Performance (HP) Dressage
Program includes the USEF National High Performance Dressage Championships at the
Intermediaire I and Grand Prix Levels, as well as qualifying and selection trials, and observation
classes for those events.
b. USEF DEVELOPING DRESSAGE PROGRAM: The purpose of this classification is
to identify and recognize developing athlete and equine talent for the discipline of dressage.
The USEF Developing Dressage Program includes the USEF National Junior Dressage
Championship, USEF National Young Rider Dressage Championship, USEF
National Young Adult Dressage Championship, USEF National Developing Horse Dressage
Championship, and USEF Young Horse Dressage Program. These Championships
and classes designated as qualifying for these Championships are not considered High
Performance and therefore are not subject to rules applicable to High Performance
classes unless otherwise specifically stated in the qualifying or selection procedures for
these Championships.

Mary in Area 1
May. 17, 2011, 11:25 PM
Had to add: Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.

I feel VERY strongly that if someone needs their trainer to warm up their horse at a show, then they should NOT be showing the horse.

Sorry. No exceptions.

mjhco
May. 17, 2011, 11:31 PM
Had to add: Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.

I feel VERY strongly that if someone needs their trainer to warm up their horse at a show, then they should NOT be showing the horse.

Sorry. No exceptions.

So sad too bad. The rules allow it.

I have seen many cases where it was the RIGHT thing to do. For the terrified rider. For the inexperienced horse.

Mary in Area 1
May. 18, 2011, 12:22 AM
So sad too bad. The rules allow it.

I have seen many cases where it was the RIGHT thing to do. For the terrified rider. For the inexperienced horse.


Terrified riders should go to schooling shows or ride horses more suitable. Inexperienced horses should have the trainers warm them up AND ride them in the ring.

It's really simple.

Bogey2
May. 18, 2011, 06:52 AM
Oh come on, there are many different reasons for the trainer getting on...I try to just worry about myself, who cares if someone's trainer gets on the horse first...the rider still has to go in the arena and get the job done.

duecavalle
May. 18, 2011, 07:16 AM
boy, asking a question here is like playing telephone!

eponacelt
May. 18, 2011, 08:27 AM
Had to add: Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.

I feel VERY strongly that if someone needs their trainer to warm up their horse at a show, then they should NOT be showing the horse.

Sorry. No exceptions.

Have to agree with others that there are perfectly valid reasons for a trainer to school a horse at a show. For example, horse bucks rider off...horse needs schooling from rider who has not just been bucked off. Or, in my upcoming case, I can't be at the show until very, very late the night before I show. So horse will go to show, trainer will school it the day before, and I'll ride it the day I show.

I"m sure there are other permutations on this.

SillyHorse
May. 18, 2011, 08:40 AM
boy, asking a question here is like playing telephone!
There was no question that this thread was going to devolve to take the turn it has; that's why I wanted to be sure you saw the answer to your original question.

And to Mary in Area 1, I'll repeat the best reply to you: So sad, too bad.

duecavalle
May. 18, 2011, 08:51 AM
There was no question that this thread was going to devolve to take the turn it has; that's why I wanted to be sure you saw the answer to your original question.

And to Mary in Area 1, I'll repeat the best reply to you: So sad, too bad.

Having lurked here long enough, I should have known I was opening up a can of worms!

To clear up any misconceptions:

1) I warm up my own horse at shows.

2) I asked the question after chatting with a friend about possible scenarios for her and her horse and it got us wondering.

duecavalle
May. 18, 2011, 09:03 AM
Oh come on, there are many different reasons for the trainer getting on...I try to just worry about myself, who cares if someone's trainer gets on the horse first...the rider still has to go in the arena and get the job done.


Like.

My friend and I are riding in the same classes. I'm not worried about a perceived advantage she may have if our trainer rides her horse first. Once our butts are in the saddle, it's up to us.

Bogey2
May. 18, 2011, 12:24 PM
good for you duecaville!! Have a great show and you are a good friend to support another rider this way!

duecavalle
May. 18, 2011, 12:31 PM
good for you duecaville!! Have a great show and you are a good friend to support another rider this way!

Hey thanks!:)

bort84
May. 18, 2011, 06:42 PM
Have to agree with others that there are perfectly valid reasons for a trainer to school a horse at a show. For example, horse bucks rider off...horse needs schooling from rider who has not just been bucked off. Or, in my upcoming case, I can't be at the show until very, very late the night before I show. So horse will go to show, trainer will school it the day before, and I'll ride it the day I show.

I"m sure there are other permutations on this.

Haha, I agree too. There are lots of reasons to have a more experienced person on the horse first. Schooling shows are good, and I think the rider needs to be capable. But still, there are some horses that really just need a little tweak from a more experienced hand.

I guess because I grew up being a trainer's kid and warming up lots of horses for people (and periodically having horses warmed up for me), I never saw much wrong with it. I mean, being able to afford a trainer is a huge advantage for many ammies anyway whether they can warm it up for you at the show or not.

As duecavalle said: once you're in the ring, it's up to you anyway.

amm2cd
May. 20, 2011, 04:44 PM
No. First Level is not "high performance". High Performance is things like World Cup qualifiers, Pan Am Selection trials, stuff like that.

It is perfectly legal for a trainer to warm up a client's horse for a regional championships qualifying class, of any level.

Please cite your source where one's trainer can school the horse at a regional championship. I've linked the RC rules from the USDF site... Pertinent selection below:

http://www.usdf.org/docs/ShowFlash/web/RegionalChamp/RCRules.pdf

10. At no time during a USEF/USDF Regional Championship competition may any horse entered in that
championship competition be ridden by anyone other than the rider entered in the championship
competition on that horse (exception: grooms riding on loose rein). Further, any horse entered in a
championship competition, even entered at two levels, must be ridden by the same rider throughout
competition. (USEF DR127.6) (NOTE: This applies throughout the entire competition, even after a horse
has completed its championship classes.)


ETA: Re read that you wrote for a qualifying class, not an RC. My bad. I agree.

ttino101
May. 22, 2011, 10:02 AM
I am pretty sure that at USDF recognized shows, only the rider (competitor) can be on the horse.

dressurpferd01
May. 22, 2011, 10:13 AM
I am pretty sure that at USDF recognized shows, only the rider (competitor) can be on the horse.

And you would be wrong. Read the rest of the thread before posting erroneous information. The only time you're limited to who can be on the horse is at regional championships.

Spectrum
May. 24, 2011, 01:56 PM
From a horse show administrator's standpoint, it's important to keep in mind that anyone who is actively riding the horse on the grounds should be listed as either coach or trainer on the horse's entry.

Only a groom on long rein is exempt from this requirement, to the best of my knowledge.

This comes into play in multiple ways:

1. USEF requires signature of a release for all parties related to a horse on the grounds (owner/rider/trainer) and a trainer who is not riding in the show may possibly not have signed a release.

2. USEF requires all trainers and coaches to be USEF participating/active members. A trainer who is not riding in shows regularly may attempt to coach and/or ride in the schooling ring without being an active member of USEF.

We have had trainers at our shows attempt this in the past. If you're going to ride a horse in the warmup and/or coach students at a show, you NEED to be listed on the entry, and you NEED to have the required memberships. In most cases the show management will just make you pay for the membership, however depending on behaviour you could potentially be written up and/or asked to leave the show grounds.

Spectrum.

Rhiannonjk
May. 24, 2011, 03:40 PM
So, hypothetically, you go to the show alone (listing yourself as Trainer, owner, and rider with nobody as Coach) and your horse acts up. You find a trainer at the show as a competitor (therefore all releases are on file) and you ask them to help you with the horse. Should you go to the show office and have your entry form changed?
Or would that be ok?

mjhco
May. 24, 2011, 04:23 PM
From a horse show administrator's standpoint, it's important to keep in mind that anyone who is actively riding the horse on the grounds should be listed as either coach or trainer on the horse's entry.

Only a groom on long rein is exempt from this requirement, to the best of my knowledge.

This comes into play in multiple ways:

1. USEF requires signature of a release for all parties related to a horse on the grounds (owner/rider/trainer) and a trainer who is not riding in the show may possibly not have signed a release.

2. USEF requires all trainers and coaches to be USEF participating/active members. A trainer who is not riding in shows regularly may attempt to coach and/or ride in the schooling ring without being an active member of USEF.

We have had trainers at our shows attempt this in the past. If you're going to ride a horse in the warmup and/or coach students at a show, you NEED to be listed on the entry, and you NEED to have the required memberships. In most cases the show management will just make you pay for the membership, however depending on behaviour you could potentially be written up and/or asked to leave the show grounds.

Spectrum.

Can you show us in the rulebook where that is stated?

Especially a GROOM riding a horse?

dressurpferd01
May. 24, 2011, 07:47 PM
Can you show us in the rulebook where that is stated?

Especially a GROOM riding a horse?

She can't because it's not. EXCEPT at championships, anyone can ride a horse at a show.

duecavalle
May. 24, 2011, 07:48 PM
Can you show us in the rulebook where that is stated?

Especially a GROOM riding a horse?

I'm not sure about the groom riding a horse, but as far as the trainer, it says the following right on the OPL Entry forms:

"Any person on grounds who coaches Rider/Handler must sign this form as Coach."

See here on the second page.
http://www.neda.org/Images/Fs2011-Nf11EntryForm.pdf

Edited to add: Also on the entry form is a mandatory spot for your trainer and/or coach's USEF #

yaya
May. 25, 2011, 09:30 AM
Trainer name and numbers are required by USEF. Their definition of trainer is the adult present on the showgrounds responsible for the care of the horse.

Coach name and number is only required by USEF if you are paying someone to teach you on the horse while at the show. Note the distinction of PAYING someone. Coach is not mandatory according to USEF. NEDA may be trying to cover their butts by saying anyone coaching must sign/provide numbers.

Duecavile, what you quoted is in regards to coach, not trainer. In the context of a USEF show, they are NOT the same thing, although the same person can be both.

Tucked_Away
May. 25, 2011, 10:43 AM
Can you show us in the rulebook where that is stated?

Especially a GROOM riding a horse?

The eventing rules include a clause permitting a groom to walk or trot a horse from point A to point B. It's the only scenario in which someone other than the person competing the horse can hop on.

Again, that would be the eventing rules.

duecavalle
May. 25, 2011, 11:02 AM
Trainer name and numbers are required by USEF. Their definition of trainer is the adult present on the showgrounds responsible for the care of the horse.

Coach name and number is only required by USEF if you are paying someone to teach you on the horse while at the show. Note the distinction of PAYING someone. Coach is not mandatory according to USEF. NEDA may be trying to cover their butts by saying anyone coaching must sign/provide numbers.

Duecavile, what you quoted is in regards to coach, not trainer. In the context of a USEF show, they are NOT the same thing, although the same person can be both.

Yes, I know they are not one in the same. So sorry, I thought I quoted the full paragraph. The form clearly states:

Trainer is person responsible for condition of horse and must be on grounds during show

Any person on grounds who coaches Rider/Handler must sign this form as Coach.

What I was attempting to clarify by showing the entry form for Region 8 was that both Trainer and Coach (if you have one) must sign the entry form and provide a USEF number or pay a fee.

yaya
May. 25, 2011, 12:47 PM
That is consistent with USEF rules. If someone signs as a trainer or coach, they must have a USEF membership, or pay the USEF non-member fee.

You MUST have a trainer, you do NOT have to have a coach.

What is not consistent with USEF rules is saying anyone coaching you has to sign. USEF rules say only someone you are PAYING to coach you has to sign. Don't know if that's a misinterpretation of the rule, or simply a CYA maneuver.

TXDressageRdr
May. 25, 2011, 01:42 PM
I was at a show recently where two different people showed the same horse in two different classes. I always thought that one person could show a horse in a recognized show?

duecavalle
May. 25, 2011, 02:32 PM
I was at a show recently where two different people showed the same horse in two different classes. I always thought that one person could show a horse in a recognized show?

That is allowed as long as the classes are in consecutive levels and the horse was not shown in more than three classes in the same day.

yaya
May. 25, 2011, 02:45 PM
And they cannot both ride the horse in the same class.

duecavalle
May. 25, 2011, 02:45 PM
Edited to say: They are not allowed to show in the same class on the same horse, the classes must be different, yet consecutive. And the rule of 3 classes in a day changes above Fourth Level, after that classes are limited to 2.

Here's the rule:

Horses may compete in no more than one Licensed Competition on the same day and are limited to a maximum of three Dressage rides per day at Fourth Level and below or two Dressage rides per day above Fourth Level. Horses competing in FEI Para-Equestrian tests are limited to a maximum of three Dressage rides per day including equivalent USEF or USDF tests. Horses may enter no more than two consecutive levels, Freestyle levels included, at anyone competition (refer to the following chart). Dressage Seat Equitation, Quadrille, Pas de Deux and Materiale classes are excluded from the maximum limit of rides per day and horses in these classes may compete at any level for which they are otherwise eligible during the same competition.
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2011/08-DR.pdf (http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2011/08-DR.pdf)