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paintjumper
May. 14, 2011, 04:54 PM
Can anyone tell me about this stallion's walk, that has seen him first hand? TIA

dudleyc
May. 15, 2011, 07:02 AM
You should post this on the sporthorse breeding forum - may have better lcuk

paintjumper
May. 15, 2011, 09:27 AM
I will. I was thinking maybe someone here would have seen him showing in Fla. I have looked at a few videos online but they are not quite right to see the walk clearly....even the one named "walk". ;)

honeylips
May. 15, 2011, 10:57 AM
Which stallion is Parcival?
Do you mean Parzival that Adelinde Cornelissen rides?
If so -he is a gelding.

paintjumper
May. 15, 2011, 11:06 AM
http://www.parcivalonline.com/

ideayoda
May. 15, 2011, 11:09 AM
I think she means this horse: http://www.parcivalonline.com/introducing_parcival.htm Which naturally has a wonderful walk by nature, but becomes lateral in collection. That is not a fault of the horse, but the training of walk. That said, huge walks must be very cafefully developed to collection.

katarine
May. 15, 2011, 01:38 PM
Yeah they've lateralized his walk, in that video linked in the post above mine, about mid way through it's obvious his walk has been messed with.

paintjumper
May. 15, 2011, 03:32 PM
Is that easy to do to a horse? I've always heard the walk was the first to go but I've never done that to a horse before. Come to think of it, how is it done?

ideayoda
May. 15, 2011, 04:43 PM
If a walk is collected/shortened too early the horse will often then attempt to slow. IF the rider then pushes the horse to keep it quicker the horse easily becomes lateralized. It is important that the horse really does collect (learn to articulate the joints, not just shorten/slow instead), and that the horse 'inflates' the outside rein/positions. Equally the rider must early only follow the entire bascule of the gait so that the horse does not stiffen the back or become a 'bobble head'.

paintjumper
May. 15, 2011, 08:32 PM
That made sense. :)

BaroquePony
May. 15, 2011, 08:39 PM
The walk is the most easy to ruin because it is a four beat (unilateral?) gait. In order to ride it correctly the rider's hands must follow the head as it goes ... up, and to the outside, down and to the inside. The legs and seat of the rider are (or should be) working at a different rythym than the mouth of the horse.

Many rider's hands only follow the movement of the hips of the horse because they still have not developed a truly Independent Seat, and they have not learned to let their hands follow the mouth of the horse, first and foremost (following the mouth). Their hands are just going along with their hips instead of woking independently of their hips.

Hence the two-beat walk.

I think it is considered a form of *rein lame*.

paintjumper
May. 17, 2011, 08:25 AM
That was a great way of saying that.......if you don't mind, I am going to paste that up in my tack-up area with a few other quotes I have placed there that I don't want to forget each time I ride. I appreciate it!

Schiffon
May. 17, 2011, 10:35 AM
Some horses will walk lateral on their own, being walked in hand, on long rein under saddle or even in the field of they are stimulated or looking up (giraffe neck) and getting tight in the back. These I would stay away from as a riding or breeding prospect, it will take the most talented rider to develop a collected walk with clear 4 beat rhythm.

However, Parcival's extended walk is a very clear 4-beat rhythm with a huge stride (which is probably why it has been difficult to collect), so I wouldn't worry so much about his walk as a breeding prospect except for a mare who has the same tendency.

The trot work was lovely, nicely uphill. (Didn't keep watching video to the canter).

ideayoda
May. 17, 2011, 11:42 AM
The horse HAS a 4 beat walk when the rider is not containing it. Collected walks are rider created. Walk is the last gait collected, but many think collected walks are slower tempos, they should be the same tempo with greater articulation. IF the throatlatches are closed, head lowered, etc then the horse will slow, the rider pushes the horse paces. The horse must be up/open in collected walk. IF the walk becomes impure there are only two ways of fixing it. The easiest s.i., the second (and more difficult, counted walk...one step at a time).

Schiffon
May. 17, 2011, 12:26 PM
Yes Ideayoda, but horses vary in their tendency to get lateral when the rider collects them.

Horses with long slow walks, which is rewarded in the breed show ring or mare inspections, are harder to properly collect than horses who have a naturally quicker tempo. No different than some horses with trots that wow in the lower levels create difficulties for the collected work.

ideayoda
May. 17, 2011, 12:33 PM
A quicker stride is not an advantage in walk, it is what tends to make lateral. The very long stride has to be carefully treated because of the amount of overstride, and the lack of joint flexion of the hindlegs. That is why si/renvers are both so important to the development of the collected walk, as is toH and pirouette progressively, and the fact that the horse stays up/open/freer in the shoulders. Few riders really progressively school walk. For me it is much more about the quality of true collection/proper compression of the hindleg joints/freedom of the shoulders/a horse which is really up/open.

raff
May. 17, 2011, 03:10 PM
I think people are being VERY tough on him,his walk is only slightly tending towards lateral for a couple of steps, and never actually lateral.It is very unfair to talk as though this horse has a bad walk, don't forget that you are talking about someones livelihood here.
I think it's a gorgeous horse personally, and anyone who has to collect a walk before a pirouette knows this can happen a tiny bit and that it's no big deal.Especially as the horse does not ever pace!
Oh i'm feeling really quite cross now!

alto
May. 18, 2011, 12:58 AM
I think people are being VERY tough on him,his walk is only slightly tending towards lateral for a couple of steps, and never actually lateral.It is very unfair to talk as though this horse has a bad walk, don't forget that you are talking about someones livelihood here.
I think it's a gorgeous horse personally, and anyone who has to collect a walk before a pirouette knows this can happen a tiny bit and that it's no big deal.Especially as the horse does not ever pace!
Oh i'm feeling really quite cross now!

You didn't read -
it was very clearly stated by ideayoda that Parcival


has a wonderful walk by nature, but becomes lateral in collection. That is not a fault of the horse, but the training of walk

This dogma was expatiated by other posters.

raff
May. 18, 2011, 01:44 AM
So is there some other video showing this 'becoming lateral in collection',because the vid being 'expatiated' doesn't show it?

BaroquePony
May. 18, 2011, 01:56 AM
Around 3:29 give or take a few seconds, you will see a very two beat walk.

paintjumper
May. 18, 2011, 10:01 PM
Nor do I believe anyone else here is, .....but that walk does get a little funky....I've seen it in several videos. I am actually looking at a filly of his, hence the ?.
If it's man-made I can live with that...but if he ALREADY had that tendency and it didn't take much effort to get there .....I'll keep looking. I know a video posted somewhere is not every part of the horse, which is why I asked if someone had seen the horse in person. Thanks for the input guys :)

NorCalDressage
May. 19, 2011, 11:05 AM
Nor do I believe anyone else here is, .....but that walk does get a little funky....I've seen it in several videos. I am actually looking at a filly of his, hence the ?.
If it's man-made I can live with that...but if he ALREADY had that tendency and it didn't take much effort to get there .....I'll keep looking. I know a video posted somewhere is not every part of the horse, which is why I asked if someone had seen the horse in person. Thanks for the input guys :)

If you're looking at offspring - there is obviously a mother involved there as well....

Basically any horse that has a 9 or 10 "in-hand/breed-show" walk is going to probably have difficulty in collecting the walk and therefore more at risk for becoming lateral in the work. I think that stallion's walk is naturally very big so it was easy to be messed with a bit. Better to have a young horse with an 8 walk vs a 10 in the long run if higher dressage is your goal. He looks like he has a lot of nice qualities to him - other than the walk issue, he looks to be ridden very, very well through that video.

Evaluate the particular offspring you're looking at as an individual.

paintjumper
May. 19, 2011, 06:49 PM
"just the individual" would maybe be ok to look at, but since she is a filly to ride and breed in the future, then I want to consider ALL of her......mama's walk is good, not great..... but good.
I had never heard of that about an 8 vs a 10 for upper level work......thanks for that, I will keep that in mind while I'm looking.

Bats79
May. 20, 2011, 07:21 AM
"just the individual" would maybe be ok to look at, but since she is a filly to ride and breed in the future, then I want to consider ALL of her......mama's walk is good, not great..... but good.
I had never heard of that about an 8 vs a 10 for upper level work......thanks for that, I will keep that in mind while I'm looking.

I heard exactly the same thing from a top Dutch coach and young horse judge only a couple of months ago. He was quite open in discussing the problems of a horse with a walk like Florencio's.