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mroades
May. 12, 2011, 03:36 PM
Island Sun Stakes at Belmont

mroades
May. 12, 2011, 03:38 PM
steady fourth

betonbill
May. 12, 2011, 08:42 PM
Just curious, and this will never happen (and this is NOTHING against Matz at all), but might a different trainer make any difference?

danceronice
May. 12, 2011, 09:20 PM
Difference with what? He's just nothing super. All another trainer might have done would have been rushed him young.

A different stallion might make more of a difference...is Dynaformer pensioned yet?

keepthelegend
May. 12, 2011, 10:15 PM
Just curious, and this will never happen (and this is NOTHING against Matz at all), but might a different trainer make any difference?

I doubt it. Nicanor is still a top echelon horse when you consider most horses are claimers and more than likely running to his full ability.

Dahoss
May. 13, 2011, 07:17 AM
Just curious, and this will never happen (and this is NOTHING against Matz at all), but might a different trainer make any difference?

You hit the nail right on the head. Yes, trust me when I say, a different trainer would make a HUGE difference. I call Matz the "race filler" for stakes races. He sure does know how to win those maiden claimers though.

VirginiaBred
May. 13, 2011, 08:14 AM
A different stallion might make more of a difference...is Dynaformer pensioned yet?

No need to be yet. Getting $150,000 this year again.

Xctrygirl
May. 13, 2011, 11:53 AM
Ok I may sound "outrageous" here but allow me this for a moment.

Michael is a good and solid trainer. His staff is exemplary. And he does more to listen to what his horses want than many many other trainers.

Nicanor is a son of Dynaformer....who prior to "He who shall not be named" was notorious for producing late bloomers.

It's only May. Turf season is still just getting going up here in the northeast. Nic has run 3 times recently at consistent intervals with inconsistent results.

He has been a better runner than his recent results show. However he's been running in stakes. Once Delaware's turf opens, I would imagine you'd see him hit a AOC or a straight allowance to try to get his confidence back.

I am much happier seeing Michael manage this horse than Asmussen, Dutrow or Lake.

And lets also face the possibility that Nic's soundness (mentally or physically) has taken some management, hence the lighter schedule, and he could well not be wanting to run. And as a full brother black type stakes winner to you know who, he won't be doing anything down the ranks..He'll just stop.


Michael has the job, so let him do it.

~Emily

Calamber
May. 13, 2011, 01:36 PM
Ok I may sound "outrageous" here but allow me this for a moment.

Michael is a good and solid trainer. His staff is exemplary. And he does more to listen to what his horses want than many many other trainers.

Nicanor is a son of Dynaformer....who prior to "He who shall not be named" was notorious for producing late bloomers.

It's only May. Turf season is still just getting going up here in the northeast. Nic has run 3 times recently at consistent intervals with inconsistent results.

He has been a better runner than his recent results show. However he's been running in stakes. Once Delaware's turf opens, I would imagine you'd see him hit a AOC or a straight allowance to try to get his confidence back.

I am much happier seeing Michael manage this horse than Asmussen, Dutrow or Lake.

And lets also face the possibility that Nic's soundness (mentally or physically) has taken some management, hence the lighter schedule, and he could well not be wanting to run. And as a full brother black type stakes winner to you know who, he won't be doing anything down the ranks..He'll just stop.


Michael has the job, so let him do it.

~Emily

And just perhaps he is a not much of an anything thing horse and the careful management of a less than stakes quality horse would blow in a less carefully managed environment. After all, the last "great" Dynaformer shattered to pieces in front of all and the world to see. Yeah, that's what we want in the breeding shed. Poor Barbaro and his five, or is it six, exactly bred siblings.

Xctrygirl
May. 13, 2011, 02:14 PM
Calamber...

Hang on a sec and lets try this again.

1.) Not ALL Dynaformers break down. Not even all the ones out of a Carson City mare break down.

2.) "You know who" Only has 3 full siblings on the ground:

1.) Nicanor '06
2.) Lentenor '07
3.) Margano '09

She aborted in January of 2010 and did not have a foal in 2008. She has not yet delivered the 4th full sibling which should be due shortly.

And just as an FYI, even though they're not full siblings.

Holy Ground is standing in South America

And Man in Havana is gelded and competing in jumpers.

So it's not like the breeding world is overun with HIS family.


Additionally... you'd be wise to know that many of Dynaformers get are notoriously sound. Lots of longevity.. just look at McDynamo.


~Emily

rio2
May. 13, 2011, 02:46 PM
And just perhaps he is a not much of an anything thing horse and the careful management of a less than stakes quality horse would blow in a less carefully managed environment. After all, the last "great" Dynaformer shattered to pieces in front of all and the world to see. Yeah, that's what we want in the breeding shed. Poor Barbaro and his five, or is it six, exactly bred siblings.



http://www.st-publishing.com/cms2/index.php/the-times-mainmenu-78/15-steeplechase-news/1045-ranking-the-dynaformers-number-6-dynaskill

http://www.st-publishing.com/cms2/index.php/the-times-mainmenu-78/15-steeplechase-news/1046-ranking-the-dynaformers-number-5-tax-ruling

http://www.st-publishing.com/cms2/index.php/the-times-mainmenu-78/15-steeplechase-news/1053-ranking-the-dynaformers-number-3-dynaski

etc.....:D there are plenty more

Mara
May. 13, 2011, 02:47 PM
Calamber...

Hang on a sec and lets try this again.

1.) Not ALL Dynaformers break down. Not even all the ones out of a Carson City mare break down.

2.) "You know who" Only has 3 full siblings on the ground:

1.) Nicanor '06
2.) Lentenor '07
3.) Margano '09

She aborted in January of 2010 and did not have a foal in 2008. She has not yet delivered the 4th full sibling which should be due shortly.

And just as an FYI, even though they're not full siblings.

Holy Ground is standing in South America

And Man in Havana is gelded and competing in jumpers.

So it's not like the breeding world is overun with HIS family.


Additionally... you'd be wise to know that many of Dynaformers get are notoriously sound. Lots of longevity.. just look at McDynamo.


~Emily

Agree - those Dynaformer/Roberto-bred horses are both late and sound. Are Nicanor & Lentenor potential sire material? Right now the answer is probably "no", but their retirement future is in no danger. They'll be well-looked after once their racing careers are over.

Matz won't run his horses into the ground, I'm sure. Nor will the Jacksons take the risk of running the family of You-Know-Who if they are anything less than 100% sound.

Xctrygirl
May. 13, 2011, 03:20 PM
Thanks Rio!! You should see Dynaskill in person....wow.

Also I want to make a note..

Man in Havana was gelded on the Jacksons say so. They had smaller farms calling wanting him but for the good of the TB breed they cut him.


~Emily

rio2
May. 13, 2011, 05:00 PM
I have seen her in person - I think at Iriquois 2 years ago. wanted to take her home!! :lol:
More unsound, breaking down, "why breed to him" Dynaformers include:
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=6537847

http://www.horseracingnation.com/horse/Dynaslew

http://www.pedigreequery.com/dynever

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2010/april/30/le-grand-cru-upsets-westchester-field.aspx

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/21682/dynever-shines-in-san-bernardino-handicap


Oh heck - just go look at his stats on his stallion page.

VirginiaBred
May. 13, 2011, 05:26 PM
Good grief.

danceronice
May. 13, 2011, 08:23 PM
Dynaformer doesn't produce soundness issue (Barbaro had a freak accident. Now, whether he was really Triple Crown material, who knows. I doubt it, but then I wasn't overly enamored of him.) But none of that particular cross, Barbaro aside, have been anything spectacular. Plus they've all been late bloomers--better Matz takes them along slow and doesn't try to push them than some trainer who fixates on the three-year-old stakes tries to rush them and they DO fall apart, mentally or physically.

Texarkana
May. 13, 2011, 09:12 PM
I have seen her in person - I think at Iriquois 2 years ago.

Not to hijack, but hey Rio, are you middle TN too? :)

Oh, and to throw in my 2 cents: so he's not as fast as his brother. Why is this a big deal or a surprise to anyone?

He's a faster than average racehorse who's not having to pay his own feed bill and is in no danger of ever being without a home. All's well that ends well.

Also, I've seen Calamber's comments nearly a half dozen times in the past week about Dynaformer's being unsound. I'm sorry, I just don't agree.

Cammie
May. 13, 2011, 11:40 PM
Where is the perception coming from that Dynaformer produces unsoundness?

The pedigree articles on the racing sites such as Bloodhorse all mention Dynaformer as being one of the best sources for soundness.


"Although some care in matching conformation types is likely to be needed with his daughters, as a group they offer the opportunity to tap into Dynaformer’s stamina and soundness, both attractive commodities in a gene pool often lacking in one or both."


"With the pensioning of A.P. Indy, the most reliable source of stamina by far among the top Kentucky-based sires is Dynaformer, now 26 years old. Other stallions are capable of getting horses that can stay 10 furlongs or more, but none are as consistent in transmitting stamina as Dynaformer, and very few approach him as sources of soundness, scope, and bone. Dynaformer is also one of the few Kentucky-based sires with significant appeal in the European market, which, like it or not, is where much of the big money is."

As for Nicanor, he's not doing too shabby. How many horses out of the 35,000+ born each year even make it to a stakes level race, much less hit the board? I'd gladly take a horse who's earned $147K. Even if he's not winning at that level, he's certainly earning his keep.

Drvmb1ggl3
May. 14, 2011, 01:19 AM
Dynaformer has 1217 foals of racing age. Of that number, 994 have made it to the track and raced. That is a percentage of 81.68%, which is way above average for most top stallions, indeed stallions in general.
For comparison...

Dynaformer 81.68%
Unbridled Song 69.77%
AP Indy 72.06%
Street Cry 59.91%
Smart Strike 71.60%
Giants Causeway 68.82%
Distorted Humour 73.79%
Elisive Quality 65.53%
Tiznow 59.22%


Of those 994 that raced, they have made 17,908 starts all told. That is a average of 18.02 starts per starter, again a stat that is waaaaaaaay above average compared to other top stallions.

For comparsion...

Dynaformer 18.02
Unbridled Song 12.54
AP Indy 13.34
Street Cry 11.29
Smart Strike 14.70
Giants Causeway 12.42
Distorted Humour 16.06
Elisive Quality 12.04
Tiznow 10.64

While not definitive, and there are undoubtedly other variables involved, both those numbers (that he gets more foals to the track and once there they make more starts), would seem to suggest that Dynaformer's offspring are sounder than average.
Maybe Calamber has stats that suggest otherwise.

laserRob
May. 14, 2011, 05:20 AM
Plus they've all been late bloomers--better Matz takes them along slow and doesn't try to push them than some trainer who fixates on the three-year-old stakes tries to rush them and they DO fall apart, mentally or physically.

Like Lentenor?

"To get him into the Derby he's got to run first or second in his next start or it's a moot point," said Matz.

http://www.drf.com/news/lentenor-uncertain-florida-derby

He hasn't been heard from since.

danceronice
May. 14, 2011, 01:08 PM
Did he get thrown in the Derby mix? No? Sounds reasonable. There are trainers and owners who'd have been trying to make that money off him no matter what (especially if they could get HUGE media attention for it being a full brother to Barabaro.)

Texarkana's right, the horses are okay racers, they're not in ANY danger of falling through the cracks, they're just nothing special, either.

And I'd take a Dynaformer baby over an Unbridled's Song any day.

ivy62
May. 14, 2011, 03:08 PM
Does a horse have to be stunning at 3 or 4 to be a good horse? What about the horses that did well later in their careers.. John Henry and Forego? Yes they were geldings but still ran very well..If they are late bloomers and are training well why not take your time and see what works....

dressagetraks
May. 14, 2011, 03:23 PM
Or Cigar. Didn't see him around in the classics, either.

Calamber
May. 15, 2011, 12:06 AM
[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;5604554]Calamber...



Hang on a sec and lets try this again.

1.) Not ALL Dynaformers break down. Not even all the ones out of a Carson City mare break down.

2.) "You know who" Only has 3 full siblings on the ground:

1.) Nicanor '06
2.) Lentenor '07
3.) Margano '09

She aborted in January of 2010 and did not have a foal in 2008. She has not yet delivered the 4th full sibling which should be due shortly.

And just as an FYI, even though they're not full siblings.

Holy Ground is standing in South America

And Man in Havana is gelded and competing in jumpers.

So it's not like the breeding world is overun with HIS family.
~Emily [Quote]

Did I say that they all breakdown, or that the world is full of Barbaro's siblings? Of course not.My point was, how many foals would any sensible person breed when the first one had such a catastrophic breakdown, no matter whether it was "only" three, there was a fourth, it just did not come to term. Certainly no insinuation that the world is overrun with them. Just the rather insensible thing that one would want to continue that line. As you can see, I am not a proponent of the "bad step" theory of horse breakdowns as the reason for the high rates.

If you want to prove the longevity of the Dynaformer line, you have to have a better statistical base, such as: numbers on the ground, what are the percentages of those who raced, how many continued on to past the 3 or 4th year, etc. After all, this is how we got to this situation. All of those crooked legged speed demons from Mr. Prospector, the inbreeding of three principle lines, etc.

Perhaps McDynamo is a good long running, or jumping horse. Perhaps Dynaformer's are better jumping lines. Obviously he crosses better with some lines than others to produce decent jumping horses. I am just real tired of the Barbaro worship, which really was worship of a wealthy family who could and did spend a ton of money to save a horse who should never have shattered like he did in the first place. Otherwise, he never got the chance to prove what if he was a really great horse, which may have turned out well from the standpoint of the possibility that he may very well not have contributed to the greater good of the thoroughbred as a breed.

Calamber
May. 15, 2011, 12:24 AM
Dynaformer has 1217 foals of racing age. Of that number, 994 have made it to the track and raced. That is a percentage of 81.68%, which is way above average for most top stallions, indeed stallions in general.
For comparison...

Dynaformer 81.68%
Unbridled Song 69.77%
AP Indy 72.06%
Street Cry 59.91%
Smart Strike 71.60%
Giants Causeway 68.82%
Distorted Humour 73.79%
Elisive Quality 65.53%
Tiznow 59.22%


Of those 994 that raced, they have made 17,908 starts all told. That is a average of 18.02 starts per starter, again a stat that is waaaaaaaay above average compared to other top stallions.

For comparsion...

Dynaformer 18.02
Unbridled Song 12.54
AP Indy 13.34
Street Cry 11.29
Smart Strike 14.70
Giants Causeway 12.42
Distorted Humour 16.06
Elisive Quality 12.04
Tiznow 10.64

While not definitive, and there are undoubtedly other variables involved, both those numbers (that he gets more foals to the track and once there they make more starts), would seem to suggest that Dynaformer's offspring are sounder than average.
Maybe Calamber has stats that suggest otherwise.

No, I do not. Perhaps I am all wet when it comes to his get staying sound and producing sound. I am just pretty well fed up with the Barbaro romance loonies. Sorry. As far as the Bloodhorse record, they have not exactly been leading the charge for an improvement of the lines have they?

Maybe I am missing something somewhere. If we have no problem, and the horses are not breaking down in larger numbers, or if they are only because they are raced younger, harder, longer, on more drugs, with less breaks because of year round racing, and so on, then no problem.

Keep on as we are with multiple breakdowns of horses in the Kentucky Derby and the classics then just send them to the breeding shed or spend hundreds of thousands to try and send them to the breeding shed. I will just be shot down with someone holding up some famous cripple who produced a champion, or became a good sire, all of which is true. I still contend we have a problem to deal with for the future of thoroughbred racing. Trying to explain it away has not been working. I will say no more.

Drvmb1ggl3
May. 15, 2011, 12:51 AM
No, I do not. Perhaps I am all wet when it comes to his get staying sound and producing sound.

I am just pretty well fed up with the Barbaro romance loonies.

No argument on that count.
However, taking aim at Dynaformer is I think a bit misguided.

ivy62
May. 15, 2011, 07:42 AM
Then should Danzig have been kept out of the breeding shed also? Raced 3 times won three times and had a fracture that ended his career, not his life. He eventually produced some nice runners.. They couldn't give shares away when he started in the shed. Should Nureyev and Hoist the Flag ever been bred? They themsleves had the issues not their sires. Now, Reviewer should never have been bred.
If people like a family for the reasons that they like a line or hope for another superstar so be it. Horses take bad steps in ALL areas, even by themsleves...
Did you ever take a bad step?

dressagetraks
May. 15, 2011, 08:36 AM
Assault had more full siblings than any other TC winner - 9. Nothing else of his caliber, of course, but five were winners, two were stakes winners, one stakes placed, and two of the four fillies did go on to produce quite well. Ironically, Prove Out, who beat Secretariat, was out of a full sister to Assault. Assault himself raced longer than any other TC winner - no doubt with the fact he was sterile contributing.

Yet Assault's full brother, Air Lift, broke down badly in a race at the very beginning of his career and was euthanized.

Should they have tossed that whole combination at that point? Never bred any more siblings to Assault and never used existing siblings in breeding? Heck, go a step further back and never bred Bold Venture again in the interests of the soundness of the breed? Racing would have missed out on some good horses.

I agree on the Barbaro romance overload, but horses can and do just take a bad step.

ivy62
May. 15, 2011, 09:22 AM
With regard to Barbaro...weather it was the internet or just the media it brought more money in for research on a syndrome we need more studies. If it was the Jacksons, Dr. Richardson or just the horse people liked it had a positive spin on it. That cannot be denied. Non-horse people felt for the story of the unknown future..
It also showed the not everyone in racing is all about the mighty dollar and that the horse is dispensible...
People still talk about Ruffian and that breeding was awful...Both stories ended badly for the horse but at least Barbaro contributed to the industry in a more positive way.

Melelio
May. 15, 2011, 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by Calamber
No, I do not. Perhaps I am all wet when it comes to his get staying sound and producing sound.

I am just pretty well fed up with the Barbaro romance loonies.
~~~~~~~~

No argument on that count.


Why the sour grapes you guys, on something that makes people happy? Should we talk about things that make us feel crappy? Why CAN'T we have a romance story continue?

Smile and have a pleasant day....allow others to feel happy how they will.

Lynnwood
May. 15, 2011, 11:33 AM
I don't really feel like all the FOB's were one kiwi short of a fruit salad. Were there a few ;yes. Are there a couple of crazies in every social dichotomy we encounter yup! If you don't want to deal with crazy you better not look in the mirror , watch tv, go out side, or associate with your own family.

Now for the horse himself why did he attract so much attention? Every culture needs someone they can root for. We loved superman and we loved him more when he was corrupt or weak ...people are drawn to frailties. It reminds us of well ourselves. Especially when the underdog used to be the superhero.

We will never 100% know what caused his break down, DNA, Luck, Fate. He was a nice horse that had a great support team that was willing and had the resources to do what many of us wish we could to help an ailing companion.

I think to many people got caught up in the he was being saved so he could breed. I truly believe the Jacksons were just trying to save a horse they cared for. If he never went to stud and spend the rest of his life eating grass they would have been satisfied.

Where his chapter ended it did bring a lot of attention to how much needs to be invested research for laminitis , and how to medically manage catastrophic racing break downs.

Mara
May. 15, 2011, 02:46 PM
Why the sour grapes you guys, on something that makes people happy? Should we talk about things that make us feel crappy? Why CAN'T we have a romance story continue?

Smile and have a pleasant day....allow others to feel happy how they will.

I gotta admit, it's harmless enough but some of the extreme cultists were/are a little loopy. All the letters from "Barbaro" in heaven? I was glad to see the Barbaro's Brothers blog moved from Blood-Horse.

Have all the romance you want - just don't confuse the MyPrettyRacehorsePony stuff with reality.

danceronice
May. 15, 2011, 09:26 PM
No argument on that count.
However, taking aim at Dynaformer is I think a bit misguided.

Me neither, hence my not understanding why people are so intent on following his siblings, who are middling horses at best. But I don't blame Dynaformer for Barbaro breaking down (or for the others not being worldbeaters). I put the issue of the foals not being anything much on the dam, who doesn't seem to be THAT great.

Barbaro's leg shattered because he took a bad step. Horses can and do have the same thing happened running in a field. You want to go looking for a horse with breeding issues, check out Eight Belles, or for that matter the sainted Ruffian, who should never even have EXISTED. In that case, the dam wasn't so bad but the sire should have been minus two body parts before he ever saw a breeding shed.

Mara
May. 15, 2011, 10:41 PM
Me neither, hence my not understanding why people are so intent on following his siblings, who are middling horses at best. But I don't blame Dynaformer for Barbaro breaking down (or for the others not being worldbeaters). I put the issue of the foals not being anything much on the dam, who doesn't seem to be THAT great.

Barbaro's leg shattered because he took a bad step. Horses can and do have the same thing happened running in a field. You want to go looking for a horse with breeding issues, check out Eight Belles, or for that matter the sainted Ruffian, who should never even have EXISTED. In that case, the dam wasn't so bad but the sire should have been minus two body parts before he ever saw a breeding shed.

Well, Shenanigans was a daughter of Native Dancer, noted as a source of some fragility. She herself broke a foreleg (I want to say it was both forelegs) while recovering from anaesthesia after colic surgery. There's a case to be made there, though nothing like there is for Reviewer.

Big_Tag
May. 16, 2011, 12:41 PM
Assault had more full siblings than any other TC winner - 9. Nothing else of his caliber, of course, but five were winners, two were stakes winners, one stakes placed, and two of the four fillies did go on to produce quite well. Ironically, Prove Out, who beat Secretariat, was out of a full sister to Assault. Assault himself raced longer than any other TC winner - no doubt with the fact he was sterile contributing.

Yet Assault's full brother, Air Lift, broke down badly in a race at the very beginning of his career and was euthanized.

Should they have tossed that whole combination at that point? Never bred any more siblings to Assault and never used existing siblings in breeding? Heck, go a step further back and never bred Bold Venture again in the interests of the soundness of the breed? Racing would have missed out on some good horses.

I agree on the Barbaro romance overload, but horses can and do just take a bad step.

I concur with this statement. Have any of Barbaro's other full siblings shattered a leg? Just because one has a catastrophic breakdown doesn't mean the whole bloodline had legs of glass. I also appreciated the stats provided by Drvmb1ggl3 on Dynaformers. They don't particularly scream "don't breed to this leg shattering bloodline," do they? ;)

laserRob
Oct. 22, 2011, 04:45 AM
Final stats:

16 starts - 4 - 2 - 2 $147,372

RussianBlue
Oct. 22, 2011, 11:13 AM
Final stats:
16 starts - 4 - 2 - 2 $147,372
He's been retired? :confused:

vineyridge
Oct. 22, 2011, 11:27 PM
From what has been published, Dynaformer is extremely well regarded by racing in over the pond. Which makes sense, since he fits their kind of racing much better than ours--except for chasing.

knowthatifly
Oct. 24, 2011, 03:33 AM
Barbaro's brothers might make great show jumpers and Matz ought to know. Secretariat had a few GP show jumper gelding sons and I bet Dynaformers who fail to be racing superstars might find this niche.