"Old Style" Warmbloods

[Louise]

Now, I don't want or intend to start a war here. The one quality Warmblood I have owned has been "New Style." She was the most wonderful animal I could imagine owning, my horse of a lifetime, and I loved her to pieces. I have nothing against the new style guys.

That being said, I admit that I have an affinity for the more old fashioned guys. I love their look, their minds, the powerful way they move and the fact that if they set themselves up not to get out of the way, it looks like nothing short of a tank could get them to move.

Aurum intrigued me, on another thread, when she mentioned that, in Germany, these old fashioned guys are still being bred. I would love to know more about this. How many countries do this, keep the "foundation" stock viable so that they have it to cross back to if the need arises. Are these old style Warmbloods ever sold? Does anyone have any pictures of what exactly is being bred today?

And, most interestingly to me, are there breeders in the US who knowingly breed these heavier horses? Is there a place for them here? Well, I know I'd buy one, if I had the money, but I wonder how many more of me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif there are out there?

---------------------------
"This it be die most importante thing in die world, that someone they loff us."
Willem

[Louise]

Now, I don't want or intend to start a war here. The one quality Warmblood I have owned has been "New Style." She was the most wonderful animal I could imagine owning, my horse of a lifetime, and I loved her to pieces. I have nothing against the new style guys.

That being said, I admit that I have an affinity for the more old fashioned guys. I love their look, their minds, the powerful way they move and the fact that if they set themselves up not to get out of the way, it looks like nothing short of a tank could get them to move.

Aurum intrigued me, on another thread, when she mentioned that, in Germany, these old fashioned guys are still being bred. I would love to know more about this. How many countries do this, keep the "foundation" stock viable so that they have it to cross back to if the need arises. Are these old style Warmbloods ever sold? Does anyone have any pictures of what exactly is being bred today?

And, most interestingly to me, are there breeders in the US who knowingly breed these heavier horses? Is there a place for them here? Well, I know I'd buy one, if I had the money, but I wonder how many more of me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif there are out there?

---------------------------
"This it be die most importante thing in die world, that someone they loff us."
Willem

[aurum]

Hello Louise,
I will post links to the Alt-Oldenburger, the former base of the Oldenburg horse, they are still bred in Oldenburg area and in Thuringia and Saxony in East Germany where I live. Here the government is paying the breeders some prime if they breed these horses to not get lost. There are plenty of these gorgeous and powerful but still elegant horses. My farrier is famous in breeding them - his are all shiny black. His horses are used for driving at marriages and fun excursions. They are mostly dark bay, seal brown or black.
Here are the links:
http://www.schweres-warmblut.com/Alt-Oldenburger___/alt-oldenburger___.html
http://www.bauerpower.de/of-aol/index2.htm
and here is the FN count of how many are in existence - you see there are only few:
http://data.fn-dokr.de/data/home/2/665.pdf

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Halfhalting]

I am a fan of the modern "Thoroughbredy" build... I have always liked leggy refined horses (probably because I was raised around Arabs). But I know there are some great old style breeders. I know a FABULOUS 4th level dressage Hanoverian mare, sabino chestnut, that is just what you describe. She has had a few foals and two of them really retained her type. This is what the breeder wanted because they felt this type was strong enough to really go far (but they gave up some of the pizazz for that strength).

My opinion is that a some horses that carry Grande up close come out very old-style, whether planned or not. Time after time I have seen full siblings and one looks like Grande and the other looks like the refined stallion or dam. It's amazing to me! Anyway, the old style is still out there, and a lot of the "old-style" breeders still keep and cherish that type for all of their strengths.

No doubt about it, we need to keep this old-style for the sake of diversity and "backbone" for future direction (if we get too refined). Let me know if want details on where to find these bigger warmbloods and I can PT you - no advertising here! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[dancinglite]

Interestingly I bred my mare to one of these types. Not so much as the heavier type (he is more rounder than what you usually see today) but more of the breeding style that they used (with a great deal of success) in the past.

This was more toward 1 heavy to 1 light (TB or Trak) back to heavier for 1 generation then back to more half and half then may go either way depending on the result. What I am trying to point out is that TB or Trak was infused about every 1 or 2 generations (just enough to put a little blood in the mix).

A perfect example of this type of cross is Alhrich (sp) Klimpke olympic dressage horse ( TB sire and old style "D" line dam).

In the site below under the Dancing Lite albumn you can see my guy's sire and judge for yourself.

http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglite

[Jasmine]

My mare is more old style than refined. I have no idea why. Puritano is her sire, and he's not enormous. Her dam was a TB, very elegant and refined. She's a truck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I bred her to a more refined stallion, so we'll have to see what the baby looks like!

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

[Tin]

I'm going to have to say that our WB's are definatly the stockier out of the ones in our area. I don't know how they compare to to real old styles but you can tell they are WB's and not just big TB's. Funny thing is that 2 are TB crosses :lol :lol I like um http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~ they tease you cause they like you ~

[alexandra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:
Hello Louise,
I will post links to the Alt-Oldenburger, the former base of the Oldenburg horse, they are still bred in Oldenburg area and in Thuringia and Saxony in East Germany where I live. Here the government is paying the breeders some prime if they breed these horses to not get lost. There are plenty of these gorgeous and powerful but still elegant horses. My farrier is famous in breeding them - his are all shiny black. His horses are used for driving at marriages and fun excursions. They are mostly dark bay, seal brown or black.
Here are the links:
http://www.schweres-warmblut.com/Alt-Oldenburger___/alt-oldenburger___.html
http://www.bauerpower.de/of-aol/index2.htm
and here is the FN count of how many are in existence - you see there are only few:
http://data.fn-dokr.de/data/home/2/665.pdf

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is one Alt-Oldenburger causing some attention at the moment over here in my area: That stallion won the Bundeschampionat for driving a few years aga. Now at the age of 8 or 9 he is ridden by Leonie Bramall from Canada(trained with Jo Hinnemann, is already a long time in Germany). this horse is now showing successfully at level Intermediare.
http://www.bramall-dusche.de/gestuet_fotogalerie.htm It should be the horse in the last row to the left. (if I remember him right...) He is an impressive horse. Does not look very heavy as the Alt-Oldenburgs I know that are used for driving, but still he looks different than "normal" warmbloods.

Alexandra


I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.privat.t-online.de

[aurum]

Unfortunately Volker has forgotten to put the "who is who" on these pictures. I guess I will have to let him know http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[mbp]

That is a great link - but I'm laughing over the dog hidden in the middle.

[Sonesta]

I just LOVE the older style warmblood, hence my collection of Diamont mares and a Waldhorn mare. I even crossed Diamont onto my Waldhorn mare and have kept the filly! She's a gorgeous seal brown black and I adore her. I'm thinking of breeding her to Wonderful!

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses.&lt;BR&gt;
"Find something you love & call it work."

[dray]

I have stock piled as many old type mares as I can. I am trying my best to produce more of them.

It's a challenge.

I love these power horses.

Donna

[mbp]

So what lines are you looking for to throw olderstyle wbs here? I haven't focused on that (I like a tb type) but I think it is interesting. It seemed to me that maybe stallions with Gotthard close up might be more likely to throw an older style? Yes? NO? It sounds like Sonesta has had luck with Diamont mares? ANy other lines for lookers who want something more "warmbloody"?

[dray]

I like Duo, Weingau, Fierabend, Valerik, Grande, Demogogin, Elfenwache, Ossian, Polarstern, Welt, Duft II, Absatz, Almanach, Espadron, Ostrjak, Hrisolit ...

all this stuff kind of mixed in combinations or together comes out really, really nice.

Donna
Carson Farm (http://www.sporteuqine.com)

[can't re-]

I have an old style mare who is a granddaughter of Duft II and great granddaughter of Grande.

You can see a pic of Grande and Duft II here: Stallions (http://home.earthlink.net/~nicefarm/id12.html)

[rusti]

I love my old style boy. He doesn't have the light, flamboyant gaits that the modern version has but very powerful clear gaits and a jump to die for. Also, don't know if its the fact he's a stallion, his training or bred into him but his brain is more of a TB forward thinking than a lot of warmbloods I've ridden. Something I'm very grateful for since pushing that big of a horse around would not be my idea of a fun ride. I've ridden one other old style warmblood, Grande a mare, that was the same, very forward and easy to ride. She was also an eventer so don't know if that's a typical trait of the old style horses or a result of training.
As to bloodlines, since both of Winston's parents were old, mom was 28 when he was born and dad in his late teens he has a lot of the foundation bloodlines, Ferdinand, Lugano, Pik As, Der Lowe close up.
When I took him to the ISR inspection the judges comments were along the line of he's exactly what we'd expect with his pedigree an excellent example of a old style hanoverian but not the direction the registry is going. Haven't bothered to take him anywhere else as I think thses days you'd have more luck getting a donkey approved than one of these old style stallions.
I do really like the look of the modern type but think that with the predominantly tb mare base in this country we are going to end up with too light, too TBy and when the older approved stallions die out there will be nothing left to cross back to.

[arnika]

alexandra, do you know the name of that stallion? If you click on each picture the name of the stallion comes up on the larger pic.

They're all beautiful though the dog cracked me up! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

rusti I just saw your post. I loff your boy. Have seen him go XC on two occasions and think he is sooo nice. His bloodlines are excellent and I think the registries are going to be sorry that they don't have him available in a few years. In my opinion they're making a big mistake to dismiss them like that. I feel that way about Celtic Witch's stallion too.

Terry

[Little Indian]

Gomez is a great grandson of Grande but by looking at him, could not really tell he was half hannoverian. his mom's side is 3/4's trak. so it really refined him.
we have an old style hanoverian at my barn, down to the big hoofs and big head. I will post a picture ofhim soon. to look at him from the front, he has a ugly head, but to the side it looks noble and certintly goes with his body type. somebody must of thought he was something since he is branded Hanoverian and came from Germany (and he is over 14 years old)

*Arab Clique*Andalusian Clique, Short People/Tall Horse Clique*Quarter Horse Clique*Westphalian Clique*

[dancinglite]

Dray---all the usual suspects.

I personally do not like to put too much "G" line together in linebreeding but some lines that are line bred with a little TB or Trak added now and then have produced wonderful results.

On the Hannovarian side--Argentan--Grande (Gottard is in fact a little fine)--Duff 11--Dirk--Grundstein(by Graphit)--Woermann--Winnebago(by Winnetou)and Davos.

Holstein--Landgraf 1--Ramiro Z--Tin Rocco--Farn (by Fax 1)

Oldenberg--Donnerhall--Aachen(by Argentinus)

Swedish--Drabant--Lansiar--Chirac (by Chagall)--Gaspari

Danish--Diamond (by Allegro)--May Sherif--Pilar--Herzog

Dutch--Marius (by Marco Polo)--Nimmerdor--Joost

Belgium--Darco--Didi

The above are just a few of this type of stallions that when crossed with TB and Trak produced notable offspring.

http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglite

[mbp]

Landgraf, Tin Rocco and Ramiro surprise me on the list a little. I know Landgraf had the huge neck, but I don't think of his offspring in general as being old type, and the same with Ramiro and Tin Rocco?? Maybe that is bc of the mares I have seen them crossed on, but do you really feel those guys close up in the pedigree will typically give you older style?


Edited to add:

OOPS Didn't see this <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The above are just a few of this type of stallions that when crossed with TB and Trak produced notable offspring<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was thinking in terms of what lines would be likely to give you the "old style" that Louise was mentioning - not so much what crosses well on a more refined tb/trak mare. We were going down different lines I guess.

[inca]

I have a filly that is by Ideal (a modern type warmblood) who turned out to be very old-fashioned. Now I can see why - her dam side bloodlines are Bon Jour, Grundstein (who goes back to Grande) and Diamont. Guess the dam side came through the most!

Her gaits are lovely but not super flashy like my other mare by Ideal who is 1/2 TB. Definitely more powerful hind end and really more correct gaits than her very "floaty up front" sister. The old-fashioned one can really engage those hindquarters.

I honestly had no clue she was going to turn out to be a big-boned, big-bodied, old style girl. But, she is really nice so guess I won't complain.

[dancinglite]

mbp

Abslutely if crossed with anything that has less than 1/2 TB or Trak.

I believe the breeders realized this and the crosses were more of the lighter type with at least 1/2 to 3/4 TB or Trak.

I believe that this is why we still defer to the Europeans when it comes to crossing this one with that one.

http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglite

[mbp]

That is interesting - I think of a stallion like Landadel when I think of Landgrafs out of nontbs, and I don't think of him as old style. Veddy intersting. So do you think Landgraf sons out of nontbs would tend to throw older style also then?

With Swedish lines, I felt Gaugin threw old style. But again - I confess - I don't look for it so I don't know as much where to find it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It is interesting to see what lines are coming up.

[dray]

Dancinglite...
good additions...duh...I bred three Diamonds and didn't include him..and breeding to him agian next year.

I'll also add Erno, Grenadier and Laurenz.

[Julz]

I'm with you dray on collecting old style mares and keeping the old lines. We have Gotthard, Duft II, Woermann, Woehler, Winnetou, and Wienerwald. Legs like small trees, but light as can be. Mmmm.

Julz

[Louise]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Her gaits are lovely but not super flashy like my other mare by Ideal who is 1/2 TB. Definitely more powerful hind end and really more correct gaits than her very "floaty up front" sister. The old-fashioned one can really engage those hindquarters.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That expresses their movement to me so perfectly. I learned to ride in a barn where the owner has a Grande mare, a grand old lady now, but she can still move. This woman stood a Woermann son, and I alway caught my breath when I saw him go. She only bred the two of them once. The resulting son was a wonderful horse, but so old style that they didn't even think about taking him for inspection.

The new ones are so pretty, and their way of going is lovely, but, somehow, they don't have the charisma of a lot of those old style horses.

By the way, rusti, from the first picture I saw of your guy, I have been in love. I, too, think it is very shortsighted of them to not have accepted Winston. He is a marvelous animal, and those bloodline should have been cherished by the powers that are.

---------------------------
"This it be die most importante thing in die world, that someone they loff us."
Willem

[square halt]

My Dutch riding horse is a Marco Polo. He is heavier and has that noble expressive face with wisdom that just shines through his eyes. When he moves people just ooooh and awwww. Me too. I have had him for five years, and still breathless when he moves. I, too, am a fan of the old style. I have a more refined mare and an older style mare for breeding. Both have their positives, but for me....it will always be the older style.

[Galileo1998]

I'm pretty new to all of this - what "type" is Grannus considered? I know every time I see a photo of him, and of his KWPN approved son Great Pleasure, I'm surprised all over again at the size of thier necks!!

[dancinglite]

Galileo1998

Grannus originally called Granit is by Graphit and I would consider this line as on the heavier type (Grundstein(by Graphit). Grannus is out of the Trakhner mare Ozean and winners were produced in Showjumping and Dressage.

He produced--

Burschikase (Reserve Champion --Oldenberg)
Grand Slam--World cup british team in 1990 - ridden by Nick Skelton
Top Gun--ridden by jan Tops
plus others that I can't think of at the moment.

http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglite

[dray]

Julz...would love to see photos of those gals.

While we're here...anyone got a photo of Grenadier? Gelij (a mare)...Gunter?

I'm up because my throat is sore and I didn't want to toss and turn and wake hubby. I got tired of reading Angles and Demons (Dan Brown). Wanted to check a few threads.

[StarDoozer]

I too, am a fan of the older types. I believe, as someone states, one of the major reasons for the infusion of the trakehner and thoroughbred blood was not only to lighten them, but to make a hotter, more sensitive horse. I don't know about the German Warmbloods, but I know our line of Dutch horses is PLENTY sensitive.

This is a photo of our foundation mare. She is built like a brick sh!t house, but man, is she awesome! http://www.imajica.net/rowillie.html

And crossed with Idocus, she produced this stallion: www.imajica.net/fizznov1.jpg (http://www.imajica.net/fizznov1.jpg) and I mean honestly, how many of you wouldn't like to sit on that! :-)

So when people told me my yearling was a bit to heavy in type ( www.imajica.net/foals.html (http://www.imajica.net/foals.html) )
, I said, bring it on! ;-) He is my FAVORITE type- beautiful, high neck, super strong through the loin, a bit compact... perfect.

[HFSH]

dray check your PTs.

Liz you have a PT too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.

[rusti]

Hey guys, thanks so much for your nice words about Winston. I've been head over heals for him since I first looked at him playing in the pasture as a baby and am still in awe whenever watch him work. Sometimes though, when the bills pile up and we're only booking a half dozen or so mares a year at a bargain basement prices and disappointments like the inspection roll around its easy to become discouraged and doubt my judgement. Lots of times I think I must be barn blind and maybe I should just throw in the towel, geld him and let him play at eventing. Heck I even pulled his web page this year. Then I see such nice comments and my trainer who I have the utmost respect for as a horesmen says ya know if you geld that horse I don't think I could ever look at you again. Not the most sensitive, supportive comment but got the message across. Guess I'll get that credit card out, renew the web page and keep plugging away. 6 little Winstons a year and an extended family of awesome mare owners does more than make up for the tough times. Sorry for the off topic soppy post but after working yet another overtime nightshift in the trauma unit to support the beasts it was so awesome to read those kind words. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Halfhalting]

Rusti,
I agree with you, we MUST keep the old style in order to keep diversity in the breeds/registries. I have not seen your boy Winston though, and would love to see him. Can you post a picture or two?

[Robby Johnson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasmine:
My mare is more old style than refined. I have no idea why. Puritano is her sire, and he's not enormous. Her dam was a TB, very elegant and refined. She's a truck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I bred her to a more refined stallion, so we'll have to see what the baby looks like!

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Puritano is 17hh tall and from his video, pretty darned substantial. I love him and thought of using him on Willow.

Wonder if my baby would've been like yours?!

Robby

So I'm a sistah, buy things with cash
It doesn't mean that all my credit's bad

http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

[dcm]

Interesting thread....

Can someone post pictures comparing the older style to the newer style? I am not sure if I completely understand the difference since I am relatively new to warmbloods. We've always had tb's until this one which we've had one since Feb 03. He's a big guy, but not what I would consider either a lighter horse or a chunkier horse. But then again, he is one of the heavier looking wb's in our barn.

He has Dynamo/Don Carlos x Goldfalk and Waldhorn x Fuerst Ferdinand lines on the bottom and Lucky Light/Legano x tb lines on top. He resembles some of the horses posted here, and moves with a lot of power behind.

I attached a picture - is he the older style? Because if he is, this is the type we (my dtr and I) really prefer.

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

[Portia]

The stallion that stood at our barn was very old-style, which you could guess from the name -- Grandduell, Grande on top and Duellant on the bottom. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

He was frequently used on TB mares, which was the norm in U.S. warmblood breeding because they were the mare base here. Those crosses produced lighter and more refined foals, but still definately with substantial bone.

He has two sons standing who are also heavier types, Gouveneur (http://www.garnercreekfarms.com/dispcat.php?Cat_ID=1), who is 20+ years old now and much like his father, and Gulf Coast at Blue Fox Farms (approved Old.), who is out of a Matrose mare. Gulf Coast has been producing some very nice hunters when crossed with TB mares. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who figures an immigrant's going to have a pony? ... Why would anybody come here if they had a pony? Who leaves a country packed with ponies to come to a non-pony country? It doesn't make sense... am I wrong?" Jerry Seinfeld http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Portia]

For photos of the older type, look here: German Foundation Sires (http://www.horse-gate.com/jh/start_en.html) For the essence of the old-style warmbloods, look at the photos of Grande, Duellant, Senator, and Abglanz. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The ones with XX or X after their names are TB or Anglo-Arab "improvement" sires, who you can see are significantly lighter than the old-style types.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who figures an immigrant's going to have a pony? ... Why would anybody come here if they had a pony? Who leaves a country packed with ponies to come to a non-pony country? It doesn't make sense... am I wrong?" Jerry Seinfeld http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[exodusfarms]

What about Eminenz or Manitu horses? This is a Hanoverian mare by Eminenz out of an ES Manitu mare. Would this be considered an older style warmblood? She definitely has a powerhouse hind-end! I've seen some lighter Eminenz horses.
Mare standing (http://duende.dhs.org/amanda/emstand.jpg)
Mare trot (http://duende.dhs.org/amanda/emtrot.jpg)

[Dune]

Now, I don't want to start a controversy here ( http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif yeah, right!) but how many of you gals who looooove the "old style" WBs are trying to bring them to the FEI levels? Or, are they mainly lower level horses? I'll reserve further comment until I hear the respones.

[aurum]

Thankfully I have a lot of mares based on Grande, Senator, Duellant, Ferdinand and Abglanz, they have good bone and elastic movement with powerful hind ends and great suspension too and they are also very clear in their minds.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[dcm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dune:
Now, I don't want to start a controversy here ( http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif yeah, right!) but how many of you gals who looooove the "old style" WBs are trying to bring them to the FEI levels? Or, are they mainly lower level horses? I'll reserve further comment until I hear the respones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif FEI? Are you kidding? We are just trying to get off the local level!! That said, there are not too many nonbreeders who compete or even rub elbows with those at the FEI level, that I am aware of. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif We (meaning my teenage dtr mostly) only compete. We have no business breeding. I'll leave that to the more knowledgable folks.

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

[This message was edited by dcm on Nov. 19, 2003 at 12:05 PM.]

[Heather]

Coming late to this thread, but I LOVE the old style horses. When I was younger I had a G-line Hano that I rode who was a love, and later worked for a small breeder who crossed G and D line mares (a Grande daughter, a Deullant daughter, and another G girl as I recall) to Pik Solo and Lemon. I adored those horses too.

I'm a big tall, non-supermodel style girl, and I love the look and feel of a big, strong, "warrior" sort of horse (yes, I harbor some jousting fantasies, LOL). I like to have a nice full barrel under my leg, and not feel like I have to lift my heel to apply a spur or leg aid. I also love the attitude and work ethic of these horses.

In a round about way I was dicussing this with my hubby, who is a dedicated TB-phile. I love TB's too, but after we were discussing a small training issue with one of our TBs, and he was explaining why he disagreed with my take on it, I finally just said you know what? This is I like WB's. Tbe TB does it's job because it likes it's job, and you have to try to make them think everything is there idea and accomodate them. Their heart is based on their desires. A WB, esepcially an old school one, does it because you ask them, because you are their partner. I love my TB's, I really do, but wow, do I miss the warmblood personality some time.

I'm not a fan of the newer style (for me, since I don't want to be a GP dressage rider, I'd rather just buy a TB, if I was going to put up with TB personality), and am thrilled to hear that there are breeders out there attempting to preserve what in my opinion is a real treasure.

[arnika]

Portia, you took me by surprise when you posted about Gouvenour. I can take no credit for him since I didn't breed him, but he is out of my 28yo mare who traces back to Abglanz. She is actually quite small at 15.2 1/2 but is definitely old-style. Still sound, lapdog personality(now lets my three yo daughter lead around on her) and jumped a fallen tree in her pasture the other day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

As far as FEI, if you don't breed them to be 17 hand monsters, the old-style collect and extend quite well. Gifted, anyone? Oops, I forgot, he was a huge monster. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
They may not be incredibly light, but they show their power and submission as well as trainability.

Terry

[ThreeCorgis]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifMy stallion is an "old style" guy - lines of Duellant, Weingau, Adlerschild...one of my most successful crosses has been on my Genever mare with Sellhorn/Senator on bottom. As others have said - substance, movement, and a great mind! I love the "Classics."

[nhwr]

I just stumbled on this thread. I have a mare who some say is old style. She is large with substantial bone but not particularly wide. She is also by Dynamo with Sender in her damline (but also Waldfspecht XX). She is a full sister to this stallion http://www.rogueweb.com/dynamic/pedigree.html Her name is Dorina, her picture is here http://www.aledobb.com/ezzell/horses/page2.asp

She has a nice passage and a natural piaffe. Her work is huge. She has a very good extended and medium trot. Her canter is not super lofty but has real power. She is not a breeze to collect at the trot, but collected canter is probably her best gait. I have no doubt she 'll make a good FEI horse. My only real quandry with her is who to breed her to? I 'd like to breed her to a stallion her in the US. I'd love some input from our friends across the pond http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif or anyone with experience with old style type mares

[frugalannie]

I'm so glad I found this thread. I bred my Dutch WB mare (by Sebastiaan) to a friend's Oldenburg stallion (by Welt Hit II out of a Volkorn mare). She was definitely old-fashioned, but loved to event as well as do dressage.

What we got is a near black colt, 15.2 as a yearling, with legs like tree trunks and tons of balance and power. Luckily, he also has a good mind! The stallion owner is perplexed because every other mare he's bred to has produced a very modern type foal, even a Clydesdale!

The info you've provided here has explained it all, and I have responses to give to those who see him!

[CindyGen]

Well I have some frozen semen for the Grannus son Granulit who I have always admired. I saw recently that he had been sold, so I snapped up the last couple of doses that were available. I'm not sure which mare I would use it on yet, my mares are all what I would consider a more modern type, although my Royal Diamond mare out of a Liberty M/Wenzel I mare is quite substantial, she's still immature, but I think she's going to be a German Tank when she's finished, just one with really long legs - she's very tall.

[Egioja]

Ok, I'm getting here fairly late, but oh well...I to have to say I love the older style, I just find most of them to have a certian presense about them-they just demand your attention. I guess I do have to say that I am not a fan of TB's in general-there are some that I really like, but on the other hand I feel that they definitly need to be crossed to the heavier type (Irish Draughts come to mind as well)....after going thorugh the bloodlines here I saw quite a few of the names found in my mare's pedigree (as well as some in her colts), but I always get comments on my TB when I'm at shows. So now I think I am slightly confused-and I think she lies somewhere between old style and refined, leaning mroe towards the older, but I'm really not sure. So here is a like to a picture of her-about 6 months in foal, fairly out of shape, not to mention dirty, but its the only pic I have online that gives you an idea of her comformation. Life is LIfe (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDSAuMVpzL0EtxvwWZWvGK4EELIu3!SyT8ghOlx8K8DL0!1f hkoXZTGtypjuVMrWC9cGQVrB8TrhN3czE49T8pKrVqxZwWvYjN hTwZPJPWlILvmAz7ecA/lifeagain.jpg?dc=4675415286488936562) she is by Laibach (by Lukas/Waldfee I think) out of a graphit mare, so can someone tell me what you think-older style or new? Thanks!

[jackie]

Anybody have information on old style trakehners? I have an Abdullah daughter and had an Abdullah grandson (by Special Memories who is finer then his sire) both 1/2 to 3/4 thoroughbred and built with a leg on each corner, plenty of bone and big barreled (which I could not attribute to either dam!) Real substantial hunter looking types but still refined and pretty head and neck and topline. Could this be the "old style" trakehner popping up from Abdullah's pedigree?
Thanks

[Luv T Ryd]

I have an old style Hano mare whose grandpa is Grande on the her sire's side and also her greatgrandpa on her dam's side. Double dose, yikes! The pictures I have of Grande show she has the exact same face markings down to the very curves. She is a powerful gal (collection is easy for her) and she was from a weanling - she had huge hindquarters in her foal pictures. Might I also say I have never seen or even been able to palpate a rib on her. I know she must have them! Can we say easy keeper. I almost sold her once but couldn't do it in the end.

[mbp]

What do we mean by old style? I think that is a great question. Now, my tb loving prejudice will no doubt come out, but trying to be objective, I guess I would classify as "old style"

1. Very round barreled and not necessarily a good wither.

2. Big - not just big/tall - but very big joints, lots of body and body mass, nice big feet.

3. More carriagey style movement - rounder, showy, lots of joint articulation, but maybe with a tendency to show bicycling in some (but counterpoint - a lot of more modern types tend to show an outbehind or lagging leg - I am not meaning to nitpick - just indicate the good/bad things I personally would be looking out for if a horse were "old style" vs. more modern style)

4. While having a nicely set on neck, they may tend towards a heavier underneck, thicker throatlatch and/or shorter poll area.

5. Almost always a strong loin connection. No wasp waists.

6. A big, kind and quiet eye, but often a common head.

7. A relatively unflappable temperament, but tendency to be sticky from the leg and forwardness can be harder to create - as they will float out the shoulder more and/or get rounder in the gait without always coming through and to.

8. Boldness.

9. Enough room in the mouth to accomodate a double bridle.

10. Generally good room at the point of the elbow.

11. Often not as good reach for the canter, but lots of balance.

So, some pros and cons, that would be my take on old style. (And again - they don't make them too typey and modern for me, so I may not be giving enough credit where it is due) BTW - I have had the opposite experience with tbs and wbs as far as who wants to work for you and please you more. Typically, while tbs get hot and tight at times, they want to please so much and try try try, whereas I sometimes have had the wbs be more stubborn initially.

NOt really old/vs/new - but mare/vs/gelding. I have been at two registries inspections where there were longish mares, and the point was made that being a little longer was a typical "fault" to find with a mare - that genetically they are more geared towards having some extra room to carry a foal and will often be a bit longer. A friend went to a sporthorse seminar recently where something was brought up about this, but just in passing, and the clinician there said no, not a mare trait. So - now I'm wondering. BUt on average, my mares are a little longer than my geldings.

[Halfhalting]

MBP.
I have to say most of your summary is head on, however, #3 not always true- at least in my experience. More of the old-style WBs that I know have big sweepy movement, and less of the "bicycling" (which i am -maybe incorrectly- taking as meaning choppy or up/down (?)). That could be because of the bloodlines I'm experienced with, but they have have been able to move out very easy without carriage style at all until starting collection... Don't the Gerlanders(sp?) tend to have this type of carriagy gaits - while many of the other breeds don't?

My own experiences, with my own little itty bitty part of the WBs out there!!! God knows there are a thousand that would prove us ALL wrong! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[nhwr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
1. Very round barreled and not necessarily a good wither."

My mare is almost slab sided with a really prominent wither

"2. Big - not just big/tall - but very big joints, lots of body and body mass, nice big feet."

She is 17 hds with good size joints and nice mass to her body

"3. More carriagey style movement - rounder, showy, lots of joint articulation, but maybe with a tendency to show bicycling in some (but counterpoint - a lot of more modern types tend to show an outbehind or lagging leg - I am not meaning to nitpick - just indicate the good/bad things I personally would be looking out for if a horse were "old style" vs. more modern style)"

I was recently told my mare has a near perfect hunter trot. Although she has a lot of power behind, she has an elegant point to her toe. All of her gaits are fairly flat kneed.

"4. While having a nicely set on neck, they may tend towards a heavier underneck, thicker throatlatch and/or shorter poll area."

She does have a tendancy to be thick through the throatlatch, though she has space for for 3 fingers (just).

"5. Almost always a strong loin connection. No wasp waists."

Can you say brick house?

"6. A big, kind and quiet eye, but often a common head."

This is pretty accurate. Her face is beautiful, her head from a certain angle is plain looking.

"7. A relatively unflappable temperament, but tendency to be sticky from the leg and forwardness can be harder to create - as they will float out the shoulder more and/or get rounder in the gait without always coming through and to."

My mare is very quiet on the ground, but is very quick off the leg under saddle. Your comment about the shoulder and throughness is right on though and was a surprise to ride. My experience previous to her was with TBs.

"8. Boldness."

In spades.

"9. Enough room in the mouth to accomodate a double bridle."

Her mouth is interesting, there is room (width) but she has a low palette. Finding the right bits for the double took some looking.

"10. Generally good room at the point of the elbow."

Very true.

"11. Often not as good reach for the canter, but lots of balance."

True, and this gives her a great collected canter. I think her pirouettes will be very nice. We have just started them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[dancinglite]

nhwr-----

"''My only real quandry with her is who to breed her to? I'd like to breed her to a stallion her in the US."''

I was looking at your mare's breeding and am a little suprised that the breeder bred Dynamo to a heavier type.

I have found the the usual crosses were half and half (heavy/light) or trakhner/TB however perhaps because the mare side (Waldblume) also carried "D" line,this was a deciding factor---this doubling on this particular line seem to do more in enhancing the good traits than doubling on other lines.
Dynamo and his sire line were such a prolific producers of international jumpers that in spite of the "new" lines out there we go back to that line again and again.
The breeders that produced Diamant (my guys sire) chose the trakhner cross and while I don't have a picture of Dimitrj you can see what happens when that line is bred to trakhner by looking at Diamant on this site ---

http://www.bluedaisies.ca/dancinglite/

and punching on pedigree for breeding and gallery for pictures.

In your case I would highly recommend looking at the trakhner stallions out there as this is what I believe any breeder would do with this mare in Germany.

http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglite

[Portia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jackie:
Anybody have information on old style trakehners? I have an Abdullah daughter and had an Abdullah grandson (by Special Memories who is finer then his sire) both 1/2 to 3/4 thoroughbred and built with a leg on each corner, plenty of bone and big barreled (which I could not attribute to either dam!) Real substantial hunter looking types but still refined and pretty head and neck and topline. Could this be the "old style" trakehner popping up from Abdullah's pedigree?
Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
jackie, the Traks have always been more refined than other warmbloods, having used far more Arab and Anglo-Arab blood early on. Even then, some of the older ones were solid boys, but still generally lighter and with nicer looking heads than the others.

On the page I linked to above, take a look at Abglanz. He was a Trak stallion who was sent to Celle (the Hannoverian state stud) and became a very influential refining stallion. Here's more information on him and his influence: Abglanz (http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/covers/archive/ed_20000117.html)

If you want more info on the history of the Traks, there's a book translated from the German: The Trakehner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0851314791/qid=1069283593/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-2286729-8139917?v=glance&s=books)

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who figures an immigrant's going to have a pony? ... Why would anybody come here if they had a pony? Who leaves a country packed with ponies to come to a non-pony country? It doesn't make sense... am I wrong?" Jerry Seinfeld http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[nhwr]

dancinglite;

I think the Dynamo/Sender cross is sort of a nick. It is what produced Dollar Girl, anyway. And there is a school of thought that says like to like for breeding. While I think my mare's type is fine, I'd like to get a lighter canter and I wouldn't want to produce anything heavier in terms of type.

Portia,

I would disagree that Trakheners have always been more refined. There is a strain of Trahkeners that tend to be really old type. In fact, the sire of Sender (who is know to be a consistant producer of old types), Senator http://www.horse-gate.com/jh/horses/en/senator.html, was by the Trakhener Semper Idem out of a mare with a fair amount of TB blood.

[Portia]

Ahhh, nhwr! I forgot that Semper Idem was a Trak! I always (incorrectly) think of that "S" line as being Hannoverian all the way back, since that's what Senator was. But I don't think that Semper Idem himself was that heavy; I think Senator took a lot from his dam's "A" and "D"-line breeding.

Take a look at the description of Senator you linked to, which describes his dam as "a solid, heavy mare, with a less than aesthetic head." No wonder they crossed her on a Trak! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Senator, Horsegate.com (http://www.horse-gate.com/jh/horses/en/senator.html)

[nhwr]

Portia,

Lol, Hannoverian all the way back guarantees some TB and trakhener http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There are pics of Sender, Senator, Semper Idem and Allerweltskleid on the Del Mar AllBreeds site. I'd say Senator is a pretty even mixture of both parents. But thank god he didn't get his mom's kopf http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[WBLover]

I would say my mare was definitely old-style, in fact a lot of breeders who looked at her when I had her for sale didn't want her. Everybody wants the hot, light modern types. And she's had some very modern foals including (2) Elite mare candidates.

I personally prefer the older-style, not necessarily clunky/huge, but definitely with more bone & substance. I want a warmblood that looks like a warmblood! She had lots of bone, large feet (hard as a rock!) the thicker neck, large barrel, and flat croup with high set tail. And she was not hard to ride, well maybe sometimes, but it was more a mare thing than her build. She was very responsive and forward and had a very cooperative temperament.

My mare was Wertherson/Werther/Wendekreis and damline Manitu/Matador/Marconi. I have pictures of her and both her sire & dam-sire posted here:

www.hometown.aol.com/whynotbrln/flizzard.html (http://www.hometown.aol.com/whynotbrln/flizzard.html)

(she is sold so this is not a thinly disguised ad!)

Talk about old-style, take a look at Manitu! UGLY--poor guy. Thank goodness my mare didn't get that head!! But he is an Elite stallion so they thought he added something to the mix a long time ago.

[This message was edited by WBLover on Nov. 19, 2003 at 11:25 PM.]

[dray]

Yes, Dune.
I'm tyring to bring Dreiskoole up the FEI levels and it is physically hard work. It isn't because she isn't ridable or forward, she is. She's not a deadhead and can express herself. It just takes a lot of muscle to ride a great big tank of a horse, but for me, it's worth it. I do own "easier" horses to ride.

I can only imagine where you were going with this, but please...carry on.

In the interim, I will say, however, that I'm not asking for your approval or sanction regarding what I ride at what level and I doubt that anyone else was either.

This thread is about Old Style horses. They have a place in many breeding barns based on this conversation, and if not in yours...peace.

[WBLover]

I'm also not sure where Dune was going with her statement, are you saying that you think old-style warmbloods are less capable of acheiving FEI levels than modern types? That's completely not true, the old-style warmbloods were the fathers and grandfathers of the modern types today, and of course acheived FEI levels or they wouldn't have been the grandfathers of today's horses!

[Celebrity]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jackie:
Anybody have information on old style trakehners? I have an Abdullah daughter and had an Abdullah grandson (by Special Memories who is finer then his sire) both 1/2 to 3/4 thoroughbred and built with a leg on each corner, plenty of bone and big barreled (which I could not attribute to either dam!) Real substantial hunter looking types but still refined and pretty head and neck and topline. Could this be the "old style" trakehner popping up from Abdullah's pedigree?
Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A friend at my barn has an abdullah son (now spprox 20 years old) mare was trak as well as he is definitly old style.. very thick and sturdy (yet hes only about 16.1hh-16.2hh) but he looks massive from far away, you would swear he was over 17hh.. hes a doll too! his face is identical to abdullah..

Holsteiner Clique!
http://home.cogeco.ca/~patm/NOVA2.htm

[Athena]

I love my "old style" Hanoverian mare bred by "Three Corgis" - Lots of substance - yet elegant. She has three very nice gaits. She shows shows alot of promise as a dressage horse, but also enjoys jumping and shows great form over fences. She is very responsive under saddle. She is Very Personable - One of her many qualities that I love about her.

[Dune]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dray:
Yes, Dune.
I'm tyring to bring Dreiskoole up the FEI levels and it is physically hard work. It isn't because she isn't ridable or forward, she is. She's not a deadhead and can express herself. It just takes a lot of muscle to ride a great big tank of a horse, but for me, it's worth it. I do own "easier" horses to ride.

That was actually my point. That most people that really like the old style like them for their steadiness, nobility, sturdiness. However, for the upper levels, it is a bit of work for an average sized woman. Not that FEI work is "easy" on any type of horse, but I do think that a lighter, hotter, more modern horse is more of what a serious A/A or pro may like to ride these days. Not an absolute, of course, everyone has their preferences. It's just a generalization that I've noticed. That's all.

I can only imagine where you were going with this, but please...carry on.

In the interim, I will say, however, that I'm not asking for your approval or sanction regarding what I ride at what level and I doubt that anyone else was either.


Wow! Not sure how you got the impression that was the case. ?? Talk about jumping to conclusions. My goodness, and speaking for "anyone else" as well. Hmmm. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This thread is about Old Style horses. They have a place in many breeding barns based on this conversation, and if not in yours...peace.

Of course they do, all sorts of horses have their place, from Arabs to TB to Ponies to Old style WBs. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Dune]

Originally posted by WBLover:
I'm also not sure where Dune was going with her statement, are you saying that you think old-style warmbloods are less capable of acheiving FEI levels than modern types? That's completely not true, the old-style warmbloods were the fathers and grandfathers of the modern types today, and of course acheived FEI levels or they wouldn't have been the grandfathers of today's horses![/QUOTE]

Of course I'm not saying that. That would be a ridiculous thing to say. I just think that if you aspire to ride FEI and after you've owned/ridden/trained a few of the "old-style", I'm surprised to hear people looooonging for them to come back. Now, don't get me wrong, I've had some wonderful and very well-bred WB's, but I can't imagine wanting that same type again. I really am appreciating the smaller, hotter, more modern version these days for what they have to offer. This is just my opinion, for whatever it's worth. That and 3 bucks will get you a Cafe Mocha down at Starbucks. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I was just wondering if there were upper level riders that were prefering these old-style WBs over the "new models". I am truly curious, not trying to insult anyone. Sheesh! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[trailblazer]

Different strokes for different folks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I've ridden my fair share of hot horses. They were quality horses, but I don't understand the appeal. Same with large horses. Some were fine animals, but they weren't what I like. But I can't say that I am "surprised" that people like those horses. To each his own!

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbp:
That is interesting - I think of a stallion like Landadel when I think of Landgrafs out of nontbs, and I don't think of him as old style. Veddy intersting. So do you think Landgraf sons out of nontbs would tend to throw older style also then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Linaro is modern also, but Lemgo, LeSanto, Lennox, and Lancaster are heavier. I had orphan colts by Lemgo and Lancaster out of TB mares (one was a 15.2 hand Arab type) and both are the most substantial that I have bred even given their rocky starts. There is a Lemgo son at a local hunter barn who is HUGE ... every bit of 17.2 hands and with tons of bone.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[showjumpers66]

I personally like the modern Holsteiners. I feel that the Oldenburgs are too refined. Many of the Selle Francais I have seen are still old fashioned (we have a local trainer who was imported many to this area).

I think it is a huge concern that many of the US registries are not approving heavier stallions due to our huge TB mare base.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[dancinglite]

Louise

I agree that there is a basis to keep some of the old-style warmbloods, esp to breed to the TB and lighter crosss out there (same basic mare base in Canada) but and there is a big but in there---- I am seeing more and more mares out there having been bred from the heavier breeds--draft--friesien--heavier warmbloods--quarterhorses to name just a few. These crosses (and purebreds) are looking to improve their breeding and pedigree toward the Olympic disiplines are looking to the more refined warmbloods stallions.

I turn down any mares that is too light as I feel my boy won't cross as well with them. I promote him more specifically with heavy or coarse types as the results are coming out exceptionaly well.

I feel that keeping these lines( not so much for the type of warmblood (heavier))but more as to the specific breeding line (Grande/Duff 11/Senator/Ferdinand/Landgraf/Woermann/Abglanz etc) is important as thes are the basis of the modern Warmblood.

http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglite

[Celebrity]

What do you guys think about Burggraaf as an old style wb? I love him because he reminds me of his daddy, who is my all time fav stud..I will hopefully be breeding my mare to Burg within the next couple years.. she is a big tanker too.. I am hoping to get a massive block of horse! haha..

Holsteiner Clique!
http://home.cogeco.ca/~patm/NOVA2.htm

[kari]

I've got an old style Hanoverian who is unfortunately, old. I love him to pieces, he has HUGE bone, a wonderful temperment, and insanely handsome! If I could clone him, I would! His sire is Wotan, and he is out of Quinthi, who I believe was a Dutch. I love this horse! You can see a pic of him here.Woody (http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Nov/200311206274757568543858.jpg) This is a trip out after his recovery from his bone infection this spring, so he has looked better, here is a picture of his handsome face.
Handsome face! (http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Nov/200311208462562629296910.jpg) Hope these links work, I am new at this picture thing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~head chef and mothermucker for Woody, KC, Jonah,& Kassey~

Cliques:
Draft/DraftX, Braid Yourself,
Please Don't Let Me Ruin My Youngster!

[dray]

Dune...sorry to rant on you there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Please accept my apology. Mt evil twin invaded my keyboard. What you say is true. These are professional's horses to get all the way to the top. It requires tremendous strength. And if she pops a buck, it's a whallop (it's actually kind of fun and I don't mind it). It doesn't happen often, but if she's really fresh and I don't have her properly supple and get into work a little to quick...kaboom. bold and noble are good descriptions (never whirling around underneath you and stuff like that).

I got her not long after my infant daughter died, so I was out of shape and the six months was H#$%. I needed somehting new to pour my heart into and it has been a life altering journey for me. AFter her, I was so in love that I did import the other mares, mostly old type and then the stallion and the breeding program is turning out okay.

Not all of my mares are old type. You mare a very good point. The strength required for this mare is an investment in itself and not for eveyrone.

Jackie, if you email me, I'll send you photos and you can post of the very old East Prussian lines. Very, very different look.

3Corgis...can you post a photo of your guy???

over myself now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

[dray]

Dune,

I'm only 5'5"....

[nhwr]

My old style mare is the first WB I have had a "long term relationship" with. I had ridden a holsteiner/TB cross for a couple of years and my life was full of several OTTBs before that. While all of these were horses, I was a bit surprised at how different it was to ride my mare. In some ways it is more work, in others not all. I wish she was around when I was learning to sit the trot, lol. Her back is sooo strong, I would not have had any pangs of guilt. And it is wierd her trot is so big, it is actually easier to sit than to post. She is harder to collect and keep round, if she wants to resist. On the other hand, she just doesn't resist very often. It is much easier to keep her focused on her work. And she literally will not spook if you are really working. I loff that. She gives her mind over to the process in a way my TBs almost never did. With the TBs that relationship always felt like a house of cards, with her it is just a given.

So in terms of what makes FEI potential, there are somethings that make old style horses more suitable, some things that make them less suitable. But isn't that really true of any horse?

[Portia]

Dune, you're clearly not the only one who likes the lighter, hotter type, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion! The WB breeders adapt to the market, and if the old-style was still what the majority of buyers wanted, then the old-style would still be bred in large numbers. Instead, they're producing the new "sportier" version instead of "SUV" version, because that's what many buyers want, and mostly for the same reasons you have for preferring them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have to say that the REAL Portia (Pikadero/Prinz Gaylord) is something of a ... well, if not a tank, then an armored troop carrier. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif When/if we breed her, it will be to someone lighter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who figures an immigrant's going to have a pony? ... Why would anybody come here if they had a pony? Who leaves a country packed with ponies to come to a non-pony country? It doesn't make sense... am I wrong?" Jerry Seinfeld http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[nhwr]

You know though the hard part about these girls is alot the of the "dates" that make the trip over the Atlantic are aimed at a lighter mare base. So the potential for their dance cards is a bit limited. I'd like to think about using a trakhener stallion but then how do I paper the baby? Dorina has Hannoverian papers. In Germany, I could breed her to an improvement sire like Hohenstein or Prince Thatch (which I almost did before she came over). But what are my choices that way here?

[ThreeCorgis]

Hi Dray- Hope I am allowed to post my website address? You can see my guy and the oldstyles
we produce.
www.horsequest.com/site/zarcross/home.htm (http://www.horsequest.com/site/zarcross/home.htm)

[Dune]

Dray, no prob! You're all right with me! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Your mare is a very nice type and I'm sure that she's a blast to ride. I do love being able to harness all that power and then Let it gooooo! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm about your size too and I find that staying in shape with Pilates, hiking, aerobic, weight-lifting really helps with these "bigger" horses. Good luck with your mare and keep us posted with your progress. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Julz]

Back again, a little bit late. I liked mpb's list of what makes an "Old Style" warmblood. The physical descriptions are pretty right on of my two tank girls, but not so much the movement descriptions.

dray asked to see a couple of photos, so here are two of Velour, by Vienna Waltz (Wienerwald) out of Grunwolke (Greenhorn) son of Gotthard. Greenie's dam, Windesbraut, goes back to Woermann.
Velour Trot (http://www.italcomputations.com/~j4s/UmaJulz/Velour-trotB.jpg)
Velour in the ribbons (http://www.italcomputations.com/~j4s/UmaJulz/Velour-ribbonsC.jpg)

Although the German inspectors don't seem to like these big mares("too big- too heavy"), a few sporthorse breeding judges in the US do, as Velour earned a USDFBCS HOY in 2000 with an average score of around 76%. Will she make it to the FEI levels with me riding her? I don't know-I think both of us have the ability, it is just a bit more work to ride her very wide body (even wider now after two foals) than my slightly lighter Winnetou/Duft II horse.

[Dune]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
My old style mare is the first WB I have had a "long term relationship" with. I had ridden a holsteiner/TB cross for a couple of years and my life was full of several OTTBs before that. While all of these were horses, I was a bit surprised at how different it was to ride my mare. In some ways it is more work, in others not all. I wish she was around when I was learning to sit the trot, lol. Her back is sooo strong, I would not have had any pangs of guilt. And it is wierd her trot is so big, it is actually easier to sit than to post.

Yes, this is a very nice "feature" with these horses.


She is harder to collect and keep round, if she wants to resist. On the other hand, she just doesn't resist very often.

Again agree with you here, this is where that adage, MORE LEG! MORE LEG comes into play! It's hard to believe you want to add more leg when they are resisting in front and with their bodies, but it has such an effect on the way they go. In fact, it's pretty much the answer when I'm having any sort of problem on these types, more leg! NOT something that would help on a TB...or maybe it would, if they'd letttt you. ??



It is much easier to keep her focused on her work. And she literally _ will not_ spook if you are really working. I loff that. She gives her mind over to the process in a way my TBs almost never did.

"Gives their mind over to the process", I love the way that you worded that. That right there is a profound observation and everyone should be able to experience that feeling when you get "in the zone". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif


With the TBs that relationship always felt like a house of cards, with her it is just a given.

So in terms of what makes FEI potential, there are somethings that make old style horses more suitable, some things that make them less suitable. But isn't that really true of any
horse?

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[hansiska]

Fascinating conversation, everyone! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Which stallions standing on American soil would you say best represent these old lines and old style of warmblood? A few have already been mentioned, I realize, but mostly the discussion has revolved around who to look for in a pedigree.

Reason for my question: I am purchasing a Lemon xx/ Abhang III broodmare http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and I really want to stick to these old lines, but dealing with frozen is problematic for me.

Thanks!

[Janeway]

My old horse was an old style Hannoverian as well. He was by Wienerwald of a mare by Marcio xx.

Let's see if this link works to show him:

My 1976 Model Hannoverian (http://community.webshots.com/photo/101018491/101018634rugYXe)

He was 17.2 h high and quite solid. Lazy on the flat but loved to jump http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm in love with GotSpots stallin Winston. I would love one of his foals one day.

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

[rusti]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifHey, GotSpots stole my stallion!
but thanks for the nice words, Janeway!
Your Winston looks so much like mine and an eventer too!

[dray]

Hey Ladies! I'm back. Trying to get a little fever again. WHAA! Some flu bug is trying to catch me, but I keep running.

Julz- lovley mare. Both photos are really nice. Is that you in the hat?

3Corgis - I love your stallion. I cannot imagine being the position of sending a horse to a 100 day test and having that happen. It seems to happen a lot in America. I don't know what I will do when it comes time for Freedom and I have to make a decision. I don't trust anyone else with my horses. I start them, ride them...clinics of course, but I have real heart burn over that. I'll probably see who will take them based on inspections and age-appropriate performance criteria. I guess that's RPSI or BWP.

About Allerhand...Dreiskoole has Ferro xx and Weingau as well in her pedigree.

Ferro xx sired a horse named Fidelio who was taken from Germany by the Russians on a train during "THE WAR". Fidelio was the only horse who survived that journey and the soldiers had to literally carry him to the stable because he was so weak. He became a star in dressage and sho jumping and was used to good effect behind the Iron Curtain. Allerhand is a wonderful horse. WOW!!! I got goose bumps. Love his pedigree. Where was he bred?

Janeway, my laptop is too slow to get the web shots. I'll log on to hubby's machine later and gawk at your horse.

[Julz]

Thank you dray!
Yes, that's me- it was the year of "the hat." It has since died and I can't find a suitable replacement. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

There is so much information in this thread, so I may have missed some of the content, but are many people standing stallions in the US, who are US bred, who meet the Old Style physique?

Thanks again,
Julz

[Janeway]

Oops! Sorry Rusti! I knew it was you, but got mixed up when I posted. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

[dray]

Diamond is Old Type. Kendra, can you post hte photo I sent you of him? East Prussia Trakehner and Hanoverian lines. He's actually 5/8 Trakehner. Abglanz, Pregel, Ozean, Pregel, and Atlantic sired Desiree, his granddam who was bred to Donauwind who sired his mother Diana.

Welcome might be old type. I haven't seen him in person, but Heike imported him and his pedigree is just to die for. Grandsires are Grande on dam line and Woerman is sire line gs. Then Sender, Duellfest, Abglanz and Ferdinand. I'm so in lust on behalf of my mares.

Otschag is somewhere between old and new. Old lines on the dam side...D, G, A line Hanoverian and Erno on dam line and East Prussian Trakehner on the sire line, Hockey, Ossian...good for my old type mares and my few modern ones. I am hoping that the heavy mares throw old type foals with him. I'll know more this spring. They will be genetically veyr similar to Diamond, which will be fine with me.

Our colt Freedom, will turn out being an Old Type. I cannot wait to be able to test breed him. florestan and Duellant, Demogogin, Weingau, Feirabend, etc.

Liberty is looking like she's going to be an old type mare. She just got so tall so fast, but she's got these really big hocks and knees. I don't feed all the grow and win stuff because I do worry about OCD and don't give a fart in the win about halter classes or in hand...the warmblood version...

Just recently met Allerhand on this board...

I am hoping that my program will be producing old type horses for future breeding and riding stock. Time will tell. So far so good.

[hansiska]

Here's Diamond. Donna, approximately how tall is the woman holding him? He looks so massive in this picture!

Any other suggestions for "old style" stallions available in the US?

[hansiska]

Sorry, but I couldn't resist... Here is Donna's filly, Diamond Showgirl, by Diamond and out of the Kirov Trakehner mare Oshaga. I think this filly brings that rumor about ET foals being second-rate to a screeching halt! Isn't she gorgeous?

[WBLover]

UMMMMM...... WOWWWWWW!! That filly is a knockout!! What a fabulous neck and hind end!

I've always liked Diamond!

[dray]

Kendra,

Thanks. Funny that I'd forgotten about that rumor some goof ball vet was spreading about ETs being inferior...guess his mares weren't up to snuff. (evil Donna channelled through the keyboard...nice Donna back). It's just that I'm amazed at how ignorant "educated" people can be.

Thanks, WB Lover. She has a full sister, Marquis, that I'll get a photo of out. They looked like little seahorses when they were weeks old.

Diamond is 171 cm, so he's just at 17 hands. Heart girth is 198 cm and cannons are 22cm. I love his shoulder.

I was looking at some photos last night and saw a photo of May Sherif and Oshoga looks so much like him.

[nsm]

Janeway---I couldn't get the link to your stallion to work, but would really love to see him. Plus I have never seen a picture of Wiewnerwald, [who is one of my horses grandfathers] I have to confess a fondness for the the older types. My stallion is somewhere in between the "older" and more "modern" types, when bred to T.B. produces a more modern type, when bred to old style mares,produces bigger somewhat
heavier horses. Couldn't resist breeding him to a Diamont grandaughter, who happens to have Lombard, Lugano,Duft II, Sender ect in her, yes, he is a tank-- and huge,
But would love to see pic of your stallion, and if you have any of Wienerwald or Widerhall, would love to see those too--------------THANKS--------------Nancy

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[ThreeCorgis]

Dray - thank you so much for your kind comments about my Allerhand. "Alex" was imported from Germany in utero by Regina Hermann- his dam Weinjahr was a very successful producer well into her late twenties. Alex's half-brother Maximillian was Hanoverian approved and stood in Colorado until his death a few years ago.
Certainly - beyond ability - I think many of the good old "classic" lines represent outstanding character/temperament!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I love the older style. My Hanoverian stallion, Oliver is older type, good substance, and bone. The Hanoverians are never going to license him - just not they type they are looking for now. I am committed to keeping him a stallion even with out European Approval - especially since we lost his daddy "West Coast" this year http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif. I just LOVED Westie, and his son is so much like him in spite of being a #@!*%#! Chestnut http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

At least so far, he has thrown 100% dark, liver type chestnuts.

Here is a photo of him as a 3 year old. Gotta love that head http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Fairview Horse Center]

and he makes a great cross on a refining type mare

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[dray]

Darlyn,
Nice stallion. I don't know who shoved a bug up the #$% of the AHS, but someone did.

I sent them copies of the test results for Otschag, approved Elite, in Russia and they said that because he had not come from Germany, he was not ELIGIBLE for AHS acceptance.

I think it's all a plot to continue to keep the American-bred horses just a notch below the Euros to continue to drive imports. Just what we need...yet another conspiracy theory...reporting live from teh COTH BB..Peter Jennings, Good Night...gag

[capricorn]

I had an old style Hanoverian mare for a while, so I am familiar with both the assets and liabilities of the old style horse. She looked rather plain standing still - big head and feet, huge bone, long back - but when she moved she was breathtaking. She had three pure gaits with a big overtrack, very supple with lots of supension and power and a good mind. I bought her as a dressage horse, but she could jump 5 1/2 feet effortlessly. I got her cheaply because she was 10 and still green. It took me 2 years to learn to sit her enormous trot. At first I got sores in all sorts of places just trying to stay on her. I jiggled and bounced and clung to the bucking strap. I had to wear a special bra when I rode her. When riding her on a lunge line, I felt as though I were going to be spun off by centrifugal force. She also turned out to be a little on the hot side once you woke her up. All the professionals who saw her said she looked like an international quality horse, but that she was definitely man's horse. Since I am a woman approaching the other side of middle age, I am very proud of learning to stay with her movement and bring her through. It was very difficult to learn to absorb the movement and keep my hands independent of my body. She taught me an enourmous amount about riding. However, I mever really enjoyed riding her. Sitting quietly on her always seemed like hard work and that enormous power and impulsion was scary.
I have a premium Oldenburg foal out of her by a Trakehner stallion. He is more refined looking and I hope he will be an easier ride.
I passed my mare on to a talented male eventing friend who loves riding her movement and power and really brings out her beauty. He doesn't ride her when he is tired though.

[Janeway]

NSM, sorry the link won't work for you, but I can email you the picture if you want. Although its actually of a gelding and not a stallion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I do have two pictures of Wienerwald at home that I can try to scan in for you within the next couple of days. He was definitely older style, grey and fairly tall.

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

[Julz]

Janeway, would you mind posting the pic of Wienerwald? I would really appreciate it if I could have a copy, as I am trying to compose a Photo pedigree of my Tank Girls. what do you think?

Thanks,
Julz

[Portia]

Here's a link to a photo of Granduelle's son Gulf Coast, who is fairly old-fashioned:

Gulf Coast, Blue Fox Farms (http://www.bluefoxfarms.com/)

[hansiska]

Here are a few more photos of horses with these old-style lines.

The first, Donna Ray's other Diamond filly, Diamond Marquis:

[hansiska]

A picture of Freedom by Freestyle.

[This message was edited by hansiska on Nov. 21, 2003 at 12:26 PM.]

[hansiska]

Another picture of Freedom at one year:

[hansiska]

And Carson Farm's stallion Otschag:

[dray]

The mare with Freedom at three days was Misty, a RECIP mare. He was also an ET.

ASIDE:I have a PayPal account with actual money in it, but didn't use it for a year and forgot the codes and changed email ISPs in the interim. They ahven't been very responsive in helping me spend my money. Therefore, I haven't been able to upgrade. I just found out that hubby has paypal, so I can perhaps get him to upgrade me.

[Oakstable]

It seems like those wanting to modernize the older style mare need to look for leggy TB stallions. Unfortunately, there are very few approved in any of the registeries in the USA, not sure about Canada.

I like the big stout mares, but since I am selling to the mostly amataeur market, that is what drives my decisions on matings.

And a prettier head is really important these days and not an issue a couple decades ago.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

I do like the heavier types, especially some of the examples posted on this thread. Dray, your two fillies are wonderful. But...(sorry about the but), I am all of 5'4 and 100lbs soaking wet. I have ridden the old style guys and they acted like I was a fly on their back. Granted, they were not all that well trained at the time but geez! Talk about a thigh master! Now, I have ridden at some nice dressage barns, and I have seen some nice old style Hannos really pour it on. The power is amazing! I, however, am small. Many folks have told me that I am missing a lucrative career as a jockey. I have galloped race horses in the past and am comfortable with my decision to NOT become a jockey. I like the lighter breeds because they fit me. I am riding my trainer's TB gelding, who is all of 15.1h, at 2nd/3rd level. (In training, I have not shown him) I loff it, he has a big trot for a little guy, he collects easily and I don't feel like a pea on top of him. I like the lighter breeds, hence my Anglo Trakehner colt, because I think I look, and I know I feel, rediculous on the old style WBs. To each their own, I loff them all, I just feel more comfortable on the more refined horses.

As for Gifted, as someone posted a while back, HE ROCKS! I always loved that horse and I always will. He earned my utmost respect when I saw him in "person" at Gladstone, what a fabulous character!

Ok, my ramblings are over, carry on with your very informative thread folks. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Amy
Owned by:
Cute as a Bugsear (Bugs) JC OTTTB (Isella x Annie Somebody)
Pippen (Frodo) ATA Anglo Trakehner (Paramoure x Cute as a Bugsear)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Spectrum]

I have to agree about the Abdullah offspring... We had one in our barn out of a TB mare.... 17.3h and built like an absolute TANK! But very striking with the Abdullah face.

Another stallion that I saw that really struck me as old style (but in a good way) was Ironman. I saw him at a horse expo a few years back, and he was incredible. Another midwestern stallion I saw that was quite formidable was Gallarius. Yet both these stallions are exceptionally athletic, great over fences, and when you see photos, they don't necessarily scream "Old style".... But when you see them in person, they are definitely very substantial.

Spectrum.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The thing I love so much about my heavier guy, is that his mental attitude makes up for his lack of "hotness" or "physical sensitivity". If you have to tap him to respond, you might not see an instant reaction, but he wants to please so much, and is so "mentally sensitive" that he really doesn't EVER want you to have to repeat a reprimand. He is also very smart, and a quick learner, but you might not realize that right away.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[aurum]

Here you can find plenty of information, pics and pedigrees of old style, but also modern/today's stallions:

http://www.horse-gate.com/althengste/
http://www.horse-gate.com/jh/

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[nsm]

Janeway------------I would REALLY APPRECIATE seeing the pictures of both your gelding and Wienerwald, also would love to see Widerhall as well, Thanks so much-----------!!!!!
Nancy

nmaloney@nconnect.net

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[Oakleigh]

I am also a big fan of the classic "old style" warmbloods. My 4 main broodmares all resemble this classic conformation style. It affords me an opportunity to breed them to a variety of stallion types without the offspring losing any of the look or movement.

I am not a fan of the new modern style warmblood. They look like TBs to me. I don't think they will hold up in the long run. The registries are making a big mistake in changing the body type desired, so quickly. They are losing movement and hardiness.

I expect mine to go well into their 20s as a very serviceable mount. These new ones don't look like they will be able to do that.

Look at what the BNTs are riding in international dressage competitions. Are they the willowy TB types? NO.

Give me a big old style warmblood anytime over these pretty faced fragile lawn ornaments.

Oakleigh

~~~~&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;****~~*~~****&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;~~~~
Breeder of Superior Sport Horse Prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

[dray]

Oakleigh,
Exactly. I agree that the modern ones are looking like TBs, so what's the point?

My goal is to become a BNR, but it will have to be on a horse that I breed and bring along with clinicians, etc. No fortunes supporting this clan. And I have observed the same thing you have. The BNT/BNR ride old style horses usually.

Bugs n Frodo,
I stopped myself from posting that my thighs look like huge iron as a result of riding these tanks. Ditto biceps and back. I'm not tall, so I have that gymnyst look, not the tall lithe lovely rider look like some of my friends. WHAA!

I've been fighting the flu and we've had some rain (therefore didn't get out and ride/lazy in a funk over the job thing, which is over becuase I finally got a job and start on Monday http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), so the past two days when I've ridden, I HAVE been a fly on her back. I got off and do some work in hand yesterday, then got on and rode. BETTER. the old style horses do lose suppleness way quicker than the modern ones, so they require much more consistency in their programs. The good thing is that these old style tanks don't tend to use the power against you. But if I piss her off and don't spend the proper time warming up, she'll tell me about it. That's my fault as a trainer if I get in a hurry and decide to cheat and do a ten minute warm up instead of a 20 minute warm up.

When I first got her I had to tie my stirrups together underneath her belly. Actually Viktor did this. I also took baling twine and made a grab strap for my hands on the dee rings for sitting extended trot. It took forever to get that hovercraft action going to sit the extended.

In a perfect world, I would:
1. go to a gym and lift weights for 30 minutes a day and
2. ride in two shorter sessions each day for the upper level horses.

Carol Lavell told me that this (two sessions per day)is what she did years ago. I scribed for her when I was pregnant with Carson and was able to ask questions and learned so much. I hope to be able to ride with her when I move. I saw her at Equine Affair in CA and was just dying that I wasn't on a horse out there riding in the lesson. Actually, Dominique Barbier does the work in hand in the am and ride in the afternoon.

I have the opportunity to bring over frozen semen for Freiherr, Woernitz, Goldstern and a few others. I mentioned it to one of hte Verbands and the person said, "the days of horse X are done. We are breeding for something different these days". And yet, I think it was Aurum who posted that the German govt. is providing incentives to breed old style horses.

This was long. This thread is so interesting.

[Beck]

I feel out of my depth here - not being 'up' on WB bloodlines at all - but this stallion (standing in Canada) has struck me as being 'old style' - and his sire was touted as 'new style' twenty or so years ago...goes to show 1) styles change and 2) blood will tell?

http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/stallion/licensed/gottadaz.html

[nhwr]

So as I was riding my "old" girl today, I was thinking about this thread and the whole old vs modern thing. One thing that really struck me about why many people might prefer more modern types is that many modern types may have more natural balance. And in this respect, they are really easier to ride. The horses I have ridden (TBs and WB-TB crosses) weren't as powerful, didn't have as much natural suspension. But they were alot easier to balance. I think this has to do with the fact that their mass is considerably less. With the horse I am riding now, I spend a lot of time helping her find her balance or re-balancing if we are pushing the envelope. I don't remember working so hard at this with my other horses. It really taxes my abilities as a rider sometimes because I have to be alot more aware. Anyone else find this to be true?

[dray]

nhwr,

You have positioned the difference quite precisely, imho. Riding an old style horse requires almost a Zen Zone level of concentration, as I think of it. Feeling and riding each and EVERY stride, which is supposed to be what I'm supposed to do anyway...but hey, I'm way human. There's always a "Mom, where's my whip?"..."Donna, did you put out the pellets?" ..."Donna, Rocket chased Prissy up the tree and she's scared"...to pick a few phrases de jour rattling around in my head.

At that point, I have to stop, resolve the distraction and get back to work.

You're so correct about the BALANCING and that's one reason that I really think the warm up is the most important phase of the ride for these particular horses. I've found that if I don't have flexion and relaxation in the poll, there's no sense to proceed any further. There is just too much MASS, as you succintly put it and you can't "cheat" with them like you can with other horses. Walter Zettl, in a clinic I attended recently, was very clear about the importance of the warm up and letting the horse use it's neck as it wished, so to speak, for the first portion of the warm up. And 12 years ago when I was clinicing with D Barbier, the importance of relaxation of the poll was hounded in to me.

To your point, these horses might not be for every rider. Can you post a photo of your mare, nhwr? Thanks!

Donna

[nsm]

Spectrum---Thanks for the kudos on Ironman, altho he is a heavier type in person, he doesn't look it under saddle, he also rides as light as a feather,yet has unbelievable power. When crossed with T.B.s he throws a more modern type, he has winners in Hunter breeding, yet I am fond of the older type he represents, Attached is a foal that is out of a D line mare, at 6 weeks old.

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[foursocks]

This is a great thread, and very interesting to me as a rider. I *love* the big heavy-boned guys- and as an earlier poster said, you just need to get them balanced. Once you get them packaged, even loosely, it's like going from a bus to a Maserati. Lots of power in the engine, but now you can actually steer it! I'm going to be on the market for a jumper prospect in a year or so, and I'm definitely going to be looking for an old style WB- I like the feeling of rumbling power. It takes more work to get it all balanced and moving together than some of the lighter horses, but dang, once you have it on the right horse, you've got knees to ears, back legs kicking up and out, jump anything fun!

One other thing I will say I enjoy in the big guys as a rider- that solid, pleasant mind so many of them have. I'm currently riding a dumblood who is very tank-like- he's only about 16 hands, but built on *big* lines. Once we get some of the kinks out and get really into our hack, I can turn him on a dime, even with those dinner-plate hooves, and he will do his best to do what I want. I love it- and as a future buyer, this is what I'm going to be looking for. Every time I ride him, I always end up smiling like a fool because he's so much fun in such a big package, and so honest, just like others of his type that I've had the pleasure to ride over the years.

So those of you with old style stallions and mares- there are those of us out there that really like this type, and will definitely support you!

You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that wont change its shape. Jets to Brazil

[hansiska]

A poll of sorts...

I love these old-style stallions and was THRILLED to hear that Blue Hors Romancier (http://www.bluehors.dk/hingste/eng/ind_eng.htm) would be coming to GW Ranch. Unfortunately, that deal has fallen through. Another farm *may* be importing semen from Romancier, if there seems to be enough interest.

So, is there enough interest? Was anyone else hoping to use this stallion?

[danskbreeder]

Hi
don't log on all that often so I just saw this thread. I've not really thought of my mare MAggi Skovgaard RDH as being old fashioned but I suppose she is. She is by May Sherif out of an Elite mare who was by Grandis. Her daughters by Royal Z II(Ramiro/Alme) and Andiamo(Absatz/Furiouso II) are all stunners but not particularly "Heavy". Animas, rising 2 year old filly, by Andiamo is going to be a big girl with amazing movement and looks identical to Andiamo. My favorite thing about Maggie which she passses on to her foals is that nice big rear engine.
erica
www.danishwarmblood.com (http://www.danishwarmblood.com)

[nsm]

This is try number 4 now - with help!

This is Ironwill by Ironman out of Dustina, a Diamont grandaughter.

Nancy

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[dray]

Nancy,

He's a handsome guy!

[Julz]

Nice hip and a nice big rack o'shoulders! Do you have more pics of him, a little older? I guess when I see such huge bone structure, I have got to wonder just how big they are going to have to get to fit that frame. What size are dam/sire?

I have a fily with shoulder points like the prow of a ship- can't wait till she grows into them. If she's anything like Momma... TankGirl Returns!

[nsm]

Thanks guys----I'm pretty proud of him, his dad , Ironman is 17 h. His mom Dustina was 16.2. Currently he is 5 months and is about 14.1/ 14.2, we are quite sure he is a grey also,His dads topline is Inselfuerst by Inschallah,he also has Wienerwald, Furioso, Gotthard, Nithard,Chronos, Agram, His dams topline is Dustin, Diamont, also has Duft II, Dolman,Duellant Lombard, LuganoII ,Soldner,Sender,Senator Woehler,Der Loewe, and alot of the other old lines.So it will be interesting to see him grow up, Ironwills grandmother was seriously line bred to Teddy also.I knew when I did that breeding I would get a big huge older style horse, but I adore them, even though the majority of what I breed are more modern types. I just had to do it and am thrilled with him, his disposistion is a 10, so is his athleticism, he is sheer power and the biggest stride I have ever seen on a foal. I bred him for myself.Ironman always gave me the feel I could jump the biggest fence one could build and I guess I'm hoping this one will too . I will try to find a later picture of him , altho as he is a Wisconsin resident, he has quite a coat on him right now.
This is a great thread because I was getting to feel somewhat alone in my love for the older types, thanks everyone!!!!!!!

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[nsm]

A good reason to raise "old style" warmbloods

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[nsm]

A good reason to raise "old Style "warmbloods!

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[nsm]

Once again--failed to get the picture attached, sorry-will try AGAIN----NM

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman