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View Full Version : how much would you offer ?



mademoiselle
May. 10, 2011, 08:43 AM
I fell in love with my friend's new foal. His sire his a welsh stallion that I show on and off in dressage (he is doing very well and scores regulary in the 70s). He doesn't look like a pony, but more like a mini WB. He sticks at 12.3h.

The dam is a nice Swedish WB, that has decent bloodlines and has produced a some good dressage horses. She is 15.3h but has been known to throw big babies.

The foal is very flashy (lots of white) and has incredible gaits (could pass for a Quaterback baby;)).

My guess is that he will probably be right at the limit between a large pony or a small horse (14.2 or 14.3).

I don't really care about the size as it is a project for myself, but I have no clue what this foal would be worth. I want to make a decent offer.

Valentina_32926
May. 10, 2011, 01:03 PM
What level has sire shown to? Is that recognized shows?

What level has the mare shown to? Recognized shows/scores?

If sire is FEI and scoring 70%+ in recognized shows at FEI, and mare has shown at least third level scoring over 60% in recognized shows at third level and pony has super gaits and temperment then I'd off in the range from 10K - 15K (would be higher if more a horse size than a pony).

netg
May. 10, 2011, 01:33 PM
I'm very curious to see responses, because I already foresee myself making an offer on a foal next year if the mare delivers a healthy, happy baby....

I would think $10-12k is probably excessive for a newborn foal who I assume won't be registered. I tend to look at stud fees as a start - I think the foal owner owns the stallion, so didn't have to pay, but what would they be? I'd look at more like double the stud fee, take into account cost of horsekeeping for the area to add to that, and offer to pay board until the foal is weaned (or longer, if they have a more baby-friendly setup than you.) If the mare has competed and won herself, I'd add more on top of that, too. So it depends.

I fell in love with a 3 year old, registered, amazing moving, ready to start under saddle, who was $10k. He was too tall for me (looking to be over 17hh and big all over), but otherwise I would have been thrilled to have him. Pony sized, newborn, and unregistered seems like it should cost quite a bit less to me!

Perfect Pony
May. 10, 2011, 01:39 PM
For a Pony/WB cross Weanling? $3500 MAX.

fordtraktor
May. 10, 2011, 01:51 PM
For a Pony/WB cross Weanling? $3500 MAX.

I personally think that is quite high for such a horse unless the sire/dam are proven in sport at more than a basic level.

suzy
May. 10, 2011, 01:52 PM
I'm thinking in the same price range as Perfect Pony. Also, what do you know about the offspring of the mare and stallion? You only mentioned the size of the foals she has produced. IMO, what the parents produce is more important than their show records.

mademoiselle
May. 10, 2011, 03:46 PM
Ok, I will try to give more details.

The sire is only 5 YO so, he has only competed at training and 1st level. He has gotten 8 on his gaits several times under 'S' judges and got a few 9s on his canter work at recognized show under different judges.
His 1st babies are cute, but to be honest the mares that he was bred to were not top of the line.

The Dam has been mostly a broodmare. Her oldest baby is 7 and going 3rd level with very good scores.

Stud fee is around $600.

Perfect Pony
May. 10, 2011, 04:17 PM
Still $3500 MAX. You can get a really nice pony cross that is 3 years old in the $2500-$7500 range. This is an unproven cross, by a young unproven stallion. You have no idea if the pony will stay a pony. Ponies aren't worth anything until they are under saddle and sure to stay a pony. A really fancy pony that will most likely stay a pony is typically way less than 10k until it is under saddle. People don't want them for kids until they are proven under saddle, the right height with a permanent card AND have a proven temperament.

The Hobbit
May. 10, 2011, 04:19 PM
I'm obviously no expert, but given the current economy, the fact that the stallion is still relatively unproven, that the foal could very well be an "in betweener" size wise (which can be a hard sell later on), and the relative unpredictability of babies in general (i.e. their talent for maiming themselves before you ever even get to start riding them) I wouldn't pay much more than 3500, as suggested above.

netg
May. 10, 2011, 04:42 PM
I agree with the $3500-ish range maximum based on everything you've shared.

hluing
May. 10, 2011, 07:16 PM
If he is as fancy of a mover as you say AND you want him for dressage (which dosent matter if he goes over)...I would say $5000-$7000 providing he can be registered. In this economy you might get lucky and get him for less...you never know;)

I will point out that the other posters are making a point as why it is not a financialy good time for raising sportponies...

netg
May. 10, 2011, 07:22 PM
I will point out that the other posters are making a point as why it is not a financialy good time for raising sportponies...

I would argue that breeding an unproven sire to unproven dam is never a financially good time. It can help if you believe in both horses if the offspring are shown to be competitive as the sire builds a successful show record, but unregistered (I'm going to assume until OP tells us otherwise) babies who don't go through an inspection, with unproven parents - aren't really a high dollar commodity.

That said, depending on breeding, records of both parents, how well the baby turns out, etc., I'd be willing to possibly pay up to $25k for a baby in the future, and I believe there are the people on this board who would go higher. However, that's in circumstances which call for such a high dollar amount - and would be a rare case in which I would do that. My next horse will likely be MUCH less than that!

goodpony
May. 10, 2011, 07:42 PM
My guess would be between 3-5k depending on quality and registry. Some purebred pony foals sell for 7500 and more depending on quality. Partbreds tend to be slower to sell till they are ready to start under saddle. Most breeders would be open to a fair/reasonable offer on a partbred foal--unless they hope to keep and/or promote the stallions offspring.

EqTrainer
May. 10, 2011, 07:48 PM
For a Pony/WB cross Weanling? $3500 MAX.

This is what they are selling for.

Perfect Pony
May. 10, 2011, 07:59 PM
The foal is very flashy (lots of white) and has incredible gaits (could pass for a Quaterback baby;)).

BTW, I don't know that I really need to make this point here, but most foals have fancy gaits. They all don't mature to have fancy gaits. It takes (IMO) a very special and knowledgeable person to be able to see what a foal will become (or likely will become) as an adult. It's a combination of breeding, conformation and that x-factor. Some of the most incredible moving foals never go on to be anything, and some foals who to most people would not be all that special, go on to greatness.

This is a big reason I don't think I would ever buy a foal!

ASB Stars
May. 10, 2011, 09:22 PM
This will make me really popular...

He is an individual. If you believe that he is exceptional- and, apparently, you do, then you should make a fair, but not excessive, offer for him. What is he worth-- to YOU? What is the number that you are comfortable with- even if he grows up to be less than what you see, right now?

Personally, I wouldn't give a rip if he cannot be registered. You are looking to buy a performance gelding-- not a stud. You do not ride papers. If he is as flambouyant a mover as you believe him to be, and he is someone you need to have as your own, make a decision based upon the career you are looking at-- not the breeding, or the brand.

Specifically, regarding the offer? I'd start in the 4's. See if they counter, and go from there. That isn't an insulting number- it paid for the mare for the year, and, they know who you are, as a buyer.

SisterToSoreFoot
May. 10, 2011, 11:32 PM
I'm with everyone on the 3.5K range or lower. A horse that young could change plus or minus, i.e. he could go hony, his gaits could become more average or fancier, his conformation could change and make him less or more appealing. It's still an unknown. That, coupled with his breeding, should make him a sub 4k prospect. That isn't insulting to the breeders, since buying this horse when he is so young saves them training/feeding money, and saves them from having to move the horse if he has a funky growth spurt and ends up 15'1 hands hands at the butt and 14'3 at the withers at 3. Not saying that will happen, just saying getting the horse off their hands for that price is good for the breeder, too.

My horse is a welsh/TB 15 hands that I bought as a unbroke three year old for sub 3k. He is very uphill (and getting more uphill by the day) and looks like a mini-warmblood. His gaits are very nice. So he is like your horse a few years older--and he was still sub 3k.

mademoiselle
May. 10, 2011, 11:43 PM
First thanks for the anwers, it is helpful. :yes:


I would argue that breeding an unproven sire to unproven dam is never a financially good time. It can help if you believe in both horses if the offspring are shown to be competitive as the sire builds a successful show record, but unregistered (I'm going to assume until OP tells us otherwise) babies who don't go through an inspection, with unproven parents - aren't really a high dollar commodity.


I might argue a little bit with you on that one. The sire is young and so yes, it hard to know for sure what he is going to pass on, but he has enough good qualities that I'm willing to take a gamble. And as far as being proven in the show ring, time will tell. Scoring over 70% at training and 1st level for a 5YO is not a bad thing. I know a bunch of WB approved stallions that didn't get scores like that!
For the dam, it doesn't bother me if she hasn't competed. Some of my best horses were out of mares who were never even broke to ride. I would rather breed (or buy a young prospect) from a mare that has produced high quality horses than one that has been succesful at the highest level in the show ring.

And to answer the questions, yes the sire is registered with 2 registries and the dam is approved with 3 European registries. The baby could be papered with 2 different registries.

PP, I know buying foals is risky and you never know what you are going to get. But I have worked for a lot of breeders for many years and I have seen a lot of babies and while it is not a real science, I have been fairly lucky over the years.

Being a trainer, I don't have the money to pay retail on horses. There is no way I will ever be able to afford a 3YO with the gaits and potential I want.
I'm lucky to be able to keep the babies for really cheap while they grow and if they are not good enough for what I want, I can break them, put show miles and sell them and break even.

So, far I have only done that with full WB, but I really like that baby.

netg
May. 11, 2011, 02:45 AM
I might argue a little bit with you on that one. The sire is young and so yes, it hard to know for sure what he is going to pass on, but he has enough good qualities that I'm willing to take a gamble. And as far as being proven in the show ring, time will tell. Scoring over 70% at training and 1st level for a 5YO is not a bad thing. I know a bunch of WB approved stallions that didn't get scores like that!
For the dam, it doesn't bother me if she hasn't competed. Some of my best horses were out of mares who were never even broke to ride. I would rather breed (or buy a young prospect) from a mare that has produced high quality horses than one that has been succesful at the highest level in the show ring.


I think you misunderstood my point.

The comment was that it's a tough time for pony breeders - and right now, it's a tough financial time for all breeders as far as I can tell. I'm not in touch with the high end situation, but I think it's tough for everyone. However, I think the market is generally not very strong for a pony breeder w/ an unproven stallion producing what may or may not be pony babies with an unproven mare. It's breedings to prove ability/baby quality to help for future breedings, but not to make much money now.

I actually am hoping to buy a baby from an unproven mare who I LOVE who was bred to a very nice GP stallion next year. Baby will be registered Oldenburg, and should be pretty nice - we'll see how it comes out. With unproven mare, it's obviously risky, and I'm waiting until baby is on the ground before making any decisions, so cutting out some risk. Still plenty there, though, and it seems like it will be a baby I'd love to have. And the price will be less than the first prices suggested despite the fact this stallion was doing international competitions.

dudleyc
May. 11, 2011, 08:22 AM
Since this is a friend that you are interested in dealing with, I would start by asking the friend what they would sell the foal to you for.

Leprechaun
May. 11, 2011, 09:11 AM
He's a baby - I'd guess the 3-5 range. I've never sold a real baby but when we thought about it for one ubber talented girl, we were shocked how low the pricing would need to be. Missed weaningling, going for yearling. At least in eventing, lines don't matter much, talent & trainablity. Could be much different in dressage.

Oakstable
May. 11, 2011, 10:00 AM
OP, since you really like the baby, ask the seller for how much they'd take.

It's between you and the seller, and what people here think doesn't matter.

However, I find it interesting as I toyed with the thread of breeding a small mare to a pony stallion. Never mind.

fordtraktor
May. 11, 2011, 10:30 AM
However, I find it interesting as I toyed with the thread of breeding a small mare to a pony stallion. Never mind.

If you need to sell it as a weanling, these are the prices you are likely to see. If you get it going under saddle and it is fancy, then it could very well be worth quite a lot of $$. Totally different ballgame.

Perfect Pony
May. 11, 2011, 11:07 AM
I am not arguing that you should not buy the pony, or that it wont be the next FEI super star, I am just stating why it is a huge gamble, and why the prices are really low.

I have hunter trainers salivating over my nearly 4 year old large pony, but none of them are going to pay me a dime for her until a kid can canter her around a course of fences and she has a permanent card. The market for dressage ponies is even worse than the hunters.