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dralthea
May. 8, 2011, 10:36 PM
I was just told at my local tack shop that daily dewormers are not recommended anymore. Has anyone else heard about the new regimen of doing fecals and treating with rotational dewormers. I thought I was doing the right thing by giving my horses the daily stuff, but now am questioning what is the best protocol. Any advice ??

GoForAGallop
May. 8, 2011, 10:42 PM
Yup, and I honestly don't know why it took so long for the horse world to catch on:

Bad things form immunities. There are only so many drugs that can be developed so quickly. We need to keep stuff as potent as possible, so that we don't end up back at square one. (Or worse, cause now the bad things are even stronger.)

There's no new wormer in the works, as far as I know. We gotta make sure that the ones we have work as long as possible.

2DogsFarm
May. 8, 2011, 11:18 PM
GFG:
I've gotta argue against that POV.
Just last Fall my vet suggested I switch from rotation to Strongid.
I have fecals done 2X year and have never had a problem.

He is not Old School, on the contrary he takes a couple weeks off each year to get recertified & updated on the latest protocols at U of MI.

You can bet I'll ask him about this when he's here next week for Spring shots.

In the meantime, I have to think OP's tack shop is just trying to hitch onto the latest fad & sell product.

GoForAGallop
May. 8, 2011, 11:44 PM
GFG:
I've gotta argue against that POV.
.

In the meantime, I have to think OP's tack shop is just trying to hitch onto the latest fad & sell product.

It may not be your current practice, but I'm not sure how you can argue against the idea of resistances being built up...it's proven. That's why doctors are more and more refusing to hand out the drugs for the little things....there are only so many medicines out there right now, and until something new comes along, we have to work with what we have. Which means not overusing it.

Edit: I guess if you could assure the horse had absolutely ZERO wormload before starting then daily wormer would be the way to go. But every day that your daily wormer doesn't wipe out every single gross thing, those gross things are building up a tolerance to the drugs.

I guess you could argue that they just want to sell product...but the daily wormer is much more expensive than a couple tubes of wormer every year so that doesn't seem to really make sense. Not that Smartpak is at all unbiased, but they just put out a little "FYI" article about worming off of fecals and it mentioned that some low-shedding horses may just need to be wormed two or three times a year. That's not a lot of money for the companies, so it doesn't necessarily seem that profit is the only motivator.

Curious though...did your vet mention WHY he made that recommendation? All three of my local vets are big fans of the "pull a fecal and then deal with the results" sorta idea, having moved slightly away from the every-two-months-rotation.

Simbalism
May. 9, 2011, 12:26 AM
The farm where I board my mare has gone to the practice of doing fecals and then worming according to that. My understanding is they will do fecals 1-2 times per year and worm 2x per year. This has just occurred so I haven't gotten all the details as to what wormer is going to be used. I also called my vet to be sure this was the current practice and they said yes.

karlymacrae
May. 9, 2011, 04:33 AM
The best thing to do is get fecals done by your vet and worm accordingly. Getting fecals done once or twice a year will ensure that your worming schedule is working properly for each horse and they're not getting too little or too much.

Daily dewormer is like taking a low dose of pain medication every day.. is it going to work the same months or years down the road as it did when you first started taking it? nope.

2DogsFarm
May. 9, 2011, 06:43 AM
It may not be your current practice, but I'm not sure how you can argue against the idea of resistances being built up...it's proven. That's why doctors are more and more refusing to hand out the drugs for the little things....there are only so many medicines out there right now, and until something new comes along, we have to work with what we have. Which means not overusing it.

Edit: I guess if you could assure the horse had absolutely ZERO wormload before starting then daily wormer would be the way to go. But every day that your daily wormer doesn't wipe out every single gross thing, those gross things are building up a tolerance to the drugs.

I guess you could argue that they just want to sell product...but the daily wormer is much more expensive than a couple tubes of wormer every year so that doesn't seem to really make sense. Not that Smartpak is at all unbiased, but they just put out a little "FYI" article about worming off of fecals and it mentioned that some low-shedding horses may just need to be wormed two or three times a year. That's not a lot of money for the companies, so it doesn't necessarily seem that profit is the only motivator.

Curious though...did your vet mention WHY he made that recommendation? All three of my local vets are big fans of the "pull a fecal and then deal with the results" sorta idea, having moved slightly away from the every-two-months-rotation.

OK, here goes:
1 - First off, I've pastewormed for more than twenty years. Just switched to Strongid last Fall. I am not arguing against resistance, I'll be supplementing the Strongid with paste for tapeworms & bots this Spring.

2 - I work for a pharmacy & doctors are not prescribing fewer drugs than in years past - for instance the Z-pack is the same antibiotic drugs in concentration & is SOP for a lot of "little" infections.

3 - My last 2 horses and the current ones have routinely tested negative for FEC.
I have a small closed herd of 2 on my farm.

4 - 2 horses pastewormed every 8 weeks @ $5-15 per dose (depending on product - ivermectin cheap, moxidectin/praziquantel not) vs $40/month for Strongid along with the ivermectin/quaziprantel I'll add for Spring.
I agree not cheaper for me, but I have just 2. For the tack shop it means selling a lot of paste vs not so much Strongid.

5 - One of my horses is a pony and moxidectin is not recommended for ponies. Vet brought up Strongid when I asked about alternatives for the pony.
He cited a newer client with a herd of wormy ponies that turned around nicely using Strongid.

6 -Like I said I will be asking him about the new worming protocol that is becoming so popular when he's here next week.

I'm not trying to be argumentive, just think there are always 2 sides to a story.
Will try to remember to post here after we've talked. :D

JB
May. 9, 2011, 08:09 AM
OK, here goes:
1 - First off, I've pastewormed for more than twenty years. Just switched to Strongid last Fall. I am not arguing against resistance, I'll be supplementing the Strongid with paste for tapeworms & bots this Spring.
But the point about resistance is that a DW is becoming more and more useless. As well, it's now known that most horses only need to be dewormed twice a year anyway for bots and tapeworms, as well as the incidental strongyle. So simply based on that, the DW is a waste.

The only way to have a chance at having the pyrantel chemicals effective again is to stop using them.


2 - I work for a pharmacy & doctors are not prescribing fewer drugs than in years past - for instance the Z-pack is the same antibiotic drugs in concentration & is SOP for a lot of "little" infections.
And that's sad, actually. I WISH there were fewer antibiotics prescribed, as they seen to be given out for EVERYthing


3 - My last 2 horses and the current ones have routinely tested negative for FEC.
I have a small closed herd of 2 on my farm.
You're missing the point though ;) There's no NEED for DWs, they are encouraging and prolonging the resistance issue, and you probably only need to deworm twice a year anyway ;)


4 - 2 horses pastewormed every 8 weeks @ $5-15 per dose (depending on product - ivermectin cheap, moxidectin/praziquantel not) vs $40/month for Strongid along with the ivermectin/quaziprantel I'll add for Spring.
I agree not cheaper for me, but I have just 2. For the tack shop it means selling a lot of paste vs not so much Strongid.

See above. The alternative to DWs is NOT to deworm every 8 weeks. It's to get baseline FECs to see what type of shedder the horse is, and deworm based on that, which for MOST horses, is just twice a year - Spring and Fall.


5 - One of my horses is a pony and moxidectin is not recommended for ponies.
But that's not a problem. Equimax, done. If you feel there is an encysted strongyle issue, do a Power Pack. BUT, there is a resistance issue with that now too, due to the long-used, OVER-used Panacur/Safeguard. But, I'm also pretty sure moxidectin is not contraindicated for ponies. The label even says "ANIMAL SAFETY
QUEST (moxidectin) 2% Equine Oral Gel can be safely administered at the recommended dose of 0.4 mg moxidectin/kg body weight to horses and ponies of all breeds at least 6 months of age or older. "


Vet brought up Strongid when I asked about alternatives for the pony.
He cited a newer client with a herd of wormy ponies that turned around nicely using Strongid.
Strongid - pyrantel pamoate, a cousin of the DW pyrantel tartrate - has high, widespread resistance issues, all over the world,, very well documented. That doesn't mean that a given farm doesn't have a resistance issue. But do not count on a one-off case like the vet cited as meaning you can use it effectively.


6 -Like I said I will be asking him about the new worming protocol that is becoming so popular when he's here next week.
It's not exactly new anymore, it's just sadly taking a very long time to get to enough vets. This "new" protocol has been around for more than 5 years, maybe coming up on 10.


I'm not trying to be argumentive, just think there are always 2 sides to a story.
Will try to remember to post here after we've talked. :D
However, "sides" cannot be what happened with a single client, nor what a vet following 20yo protocols *thinks*.

It would be a really good idea for you to sit down and watch the Strategic Deworming webinar at http://www.thehorse.com/Videos/Webinars.aspx
It very well explains the resistance issues and why you should not simply deworm every 8 weeks, OR rely on DWs.

I see there is a new series as well, with Part I just having come out May 3
http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?n=worms-in-horses-series-part-1&vID=515

JB
May. 9, 2011, 08:12 AM
Daily dewormer is like taking a low dose of pain medication every day.. is it going to work the same months or years down the road as it did when you first started taking it? nope.
Actually, it's not quite the same. DWs work by preventing juvenile parasites from becoming adult egg-shedding parasites.

However, the resistance issues - most likely largely due to these factors: 1) under-dosing, as in, a scoop for all, even horses bigger than the scoop is sized for, 2) missing days here and there, and 3) the over- and mis-use of the double dose of pyrantel pamoate for killing tapeworms.

DWs are pyrantel tartrate. The pyrantel pamoate was, until the inclusion of praziquantel, the only way to kill tapeworms. So yes, it had to be used, but since under-dosing has always been a big problem, it contributed to resistance to the pyrantel chemicals in general.

JB
May. 9, 2011, 08:23 AM
In the meantime, I have to think OP's tack shop is just trying to hitch onto the latest fad & sell product.

So they're trying to get people to stop spending as much $$ in their shop? ;)

JB
May. 9, 2011, 08:25 AM
The farm where I board my mare has gone to the practice of doing fecals and then worming according to that. My understanding is they will do fecals 1-2 times per year and worm 2x per year. This has just occurred so I haven't gotten all the details as to what wormer is going to be used. I also called my vet to be sure this was the current practice and they said yes.
Generally, it's going to be Equimax twice a year. If/when Quest Plus, or something else, ever comes back, you can use 1 of each.

Another option is regular ivermectin (for the bots and occasional strongyle) and a double dose of pyrantel pamoate (the 2 chemicals appropriately spaced) for the tapeworms. However, the more the pp is used, the longer the resistance issue with strongyles will go on.

fordtraktor
May. 9, 2011, 08:56 AM
*** sorry, still out of stock!***

Laurierace
May. 9, 2011, 09:04 AM
No it says they will notify you when it is in stock if you click on the quest plus picture.

morganpony86
May. 9, 2011, 09:37 AM
I do fecals. I board at a show barn and all of my horses are low shedders, only requiring deworming 2X/year or less.

The day we have parasites that are resistant to ivermectin is the day we're solidly screwed.

JB
May. 9, 2011, 10:26 AM
That's the truth morgan! We need to treat ivermectin and moxidectin with great care, using them as little as possible but as often as necessary. And "necessary" just isn't that often for most horses.

Lucassb
May. 9, 2011, 10:44 AM
Our vet practice just recommended we go back to rotational worming due to concerns about the buildup of resistance about a month ago. We did fecals and are making the switch.

JB
May. 9, 2011, 10:51 AM
What do you mean "back to rotational worming"? The typical meaning of that is the outdated way which has, in part, LED to the resistance issues.

pezk
May. 9, 2011, 11:36 AM
well I use a DW on my horse because I board where horses come and go all the time. Her fecals have always been zero. the barn doesn't do fecals at all. Only rotational worming. If the horse was on my own property where I can control her environment then she wouldn't need worming hardly ever. But that is not the case.
I don't see the difference between this and Interceptor for dogs. Given yr round to prevent heartworm and effective against other kinds of worms as well. I would think that targeted worm population would also be building resistance as well, but I've heard no calls for ending heartworm meds. Even consider the resistance of ticks to frontline and other antitick products - I haven't heard anyone say - hey don't treat your dog, let it get lymne, anaplasmosis etc because the ticks are developing resistance.
As far as people - many thousands of people take some type of drug every day for the duration of their lives - many many yrs. Every thing from 81mg of aspirin to prevent/treat heart disease to many diabetic drugs to even doxy for chronic lymne sufferers etc.
i understand we have a resistance problem in many areas but to focus solely on the worm and not the individual animal health is short sighted in my opinion. Maybe more research would be beneficial but I wonder how many of the companies that produce wormers spend much on research. JMO

JB
May. 9, 2011, 12:03 PM
well I use a DW on my horse because I board where horses come and go all the time. Her fecals have always been zero. the barn doesn't do fecals at all. Only rotational worming. If the horse was on my own property where I can control her environment then she wouldn't need worming hardly ever. But that is not the case.
Even that scenario doesn't automatically mean a DW is necessary. Horses with high parasite immune systems are quite capable of keeping low loads, despite what's not done well around then.


I don't see the difference between this and Interceptor for dogs. Given yr round to prevent heartworm and effective against other kinds of worms as well.
VERY different. The issue with heartworms is to prevent them from coming around at all. As well, with cats and dogs the goal really is to keep the worm load to *zero*. That is not, should not be the goal with horses. When doing cat/dog FECs, any count means deworm the animal. With horses, there are thresholds, with a certain count being quite fine to leave well enough alone


As far as people - many thousands of people take some type of drug every day for the duration of their lives - many many yrs. Every thing from 81mg of aspirin to prevent/treat heart disease to many diabetic drugs
Those are not at all in the same category as antibiotics or dewormers.


to even doxy for chronic lymne sufferers etc.
And one day we may well end up with lyme issues being resistant to doxy :(


i understand we have a resistance problem in many areas
It's not just "many areas". It's world-wide. It's HIGH resistanct - fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate have 75%+ resistance issues, meaning at best, you kill 25% of the strongyles.

That does not mean this exists on every inch of soil. There ARE farms that have proven, through FECs and FECRTs, that THEIR farm does not have resistant strongyles. But one cannot assume a given farm is like that just because one down the road is like that


but to focus solely on the worm and not the individual animal health is short sighted in my opinion.
Who said the animal's health is not being focused on? Absolutely an unhealthy animal has a weaker immune system which opens him up for a greater parasite issue. But not all healthy horses have inherently healthy immune systems when it comes to parasites. MOST do though, proven through study after study. Roughly 90% of horses tested in these studies only need 2x a year deworming.


Maybe more research would be beneficial but I wonder how many of the companies that produce wormers spend much on research. JMO
Enough research HAS been done on resistance issues and immune function in this regard.

Companies who make the dewormers did the studies to prove their safety and efficacy. Other research has been done showing that efficacy is now seriously in jeopardy.

GoForAGallop
May. 9, 2011, 12:06 PM
well I use a DW on my horse because I board where horses come and go all the time. Her fecals have always been zero. the barn doesn't do fecals at all. Only rotational worming. If the horse was on my own property where I can control her environment then she wouldn't need worming hardly ever. But that is not the case.
I don't see the difference between this and Interceptor for dogs. Given yr round to prevent heartworm and effective against other kinds of worms as well. I would think that targeted worm population would also be building resistance as well, but I've heard no calls for ending heartworm meds. Even consider the resistance of ticks to frontline and other antitick products - I haven't heard anyone say - hey don't treat your dog, let it get lymne, anaplasmosis etc because the ticks are developing resistance.
As far as people - many thousands of people take some type of drug every day for the duration of their lives - many many yrs. Every thing from 81mg of aspirin to prevent/treat heart disease to many diabetic drugs to even doxy for chronic lymne sufferers etc.
i understand we have a resistance problem in many areas but to focus solely on the worm and not the individual animal health is short sighted in my opinion. Maybe more research would be beneficial but I wonder how many of the companies that produce wormers spend much on research. JMO

Here:
http://news.change.org/stories/heartgard-sued-over-resistant-heartworms
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jul10/100701s.asp

If you're not interested in actually reading, the general gist of it is that there DOES seem to be some resistance to heartworm meds being built up, but the contributing factors are not clear and more research/studying is going to be done before veterinarians start recommending a different course of action than monthly pills. But the concern is out there.

Btw, ticks and fleas are a slightly different story, as they are not immersed in the medication and left to genetically alter themselves to build up a tolerance.

But just out of curiousity...how do you see the "worming as needed" approach as not caring about the individual animal's health? Personally, I would rather just medicate my animal when it's needed, and not be dumping POISON down it's gut on a regular basis just to do so. From your statement, it seems as if you are implying that those of us treating worms off of fecals are not considering the health of our animals. I think it's the exact opposite.

There is plenty of money being dumped into research...you have absolutely no idea how the industry works if you think Quest or Equimax made it on the market without millions of dollars worth of research.

CDE Driver
May. 9, 2011, 12:25 PM
I have done the fecal float/deworm 2x a year for about six years now. I know which horses normally carry what kind of load at this point.

Last year my vet clinic officially endorsed this protocol for all their clients.

This may be total bunk, but I have a hard time with the daily wormer program. It just seems to me like you are putting poison in your horse daily when you don't necessarily need to.

Hinderella
May. 9, 2011, 12:31 PM
I have read a lot of the information, and have been honestly undecided about what to do.

My pony had colic surgery a year and a half ago, and the vets recommended that I put her on daily dewormer, once she'd recovered from the surgery. She's still on it now, but I haven't decided whether to wean her off and go to an "as-needed" system.

This pony is TERRIBLE about paste deworming...it's a battle to get any into her, and I swear she just holds it in her mouth until you're gone, beacuse I'll find it later on the walls, on her legs, on the side of her buckets...

She's also boarded, and there is no consistency at all by other owners about deworming..some have a system, some do it only if they think the horse looks a little thin, some, I swear, don't do it at all. So I've always felt the need for a constant level of protection.

And then, of course, there's the exhorbitant amount of money that my vet will charge me for the fecals....maybe I just need to buy my own home microscope :)

But I will read some more on the subject.

JB
May. 9, 2011, 12:31 PM
I think there are some very valid, though VERY far and few between, cases where a horse really benefits from a DW. Rare. Uncommon. Not a reason to put a horse on it just because.

JB
May. 9, 2011, 12:34 PM
I have read all of the informatin, and have been honestly undecided about what to do.

My pony had colic surgery a year and a half ago, and the vets recommended that I put her on daily dewormer, once she'd recovered from the surgery. She's still on it now, but I haven't decided whether to wean her off and go to an "as-needed" system.
It may have been a good thing at the time, but is not necessary a good thing to continue


This pony is TERRIBLE about paste deworming...it's a battle to get any into her, and I swear she just holds it in her mouth until you're gone, beacuse I'll find it later on the walls, on her legs, on the side of her buckets...
what have you tried to get her over this?


She's also boarded, and there is no consistency at all by other owners about deworming..some have a system, some do it only if they think the horse looks a little thin, some, I swear, don't do it at all. So I've always felt the need for a constant level of protection.
As I said before, a very large % of horses deal with parasites very well on their own, despite a lack of control on the part of other horses. Given that most horses only need to be dewormed twice a year anyway, the "inconsistency" might well be what they'd do anyway. More than a few people/barns just toss ivermectin at the horses about twice a year "just in case" LOL


And then, of course, there's the exhorbitant amount of money that my vet will charge me for the fecals....maybe I just need to buy my own home microscope :)

But I will read some more on the subject.
Why exhorbitant? What does s/he charge? There are ways other than your vet - Smart Pak does them for $18.

GoForAGallop
May. 9, 2011, 12:41 PM
This pony is TERRIBLE about paste deworming...it's a battle to get any into her, and I swear she just holds it in her mouth until you're gone, beacuse I'll find it later on the walls, on her legs, on the side of her buckets...
.

Sneak it into her. That's a battle that I just don't care to fight with my mule...I just make him a nice mush with a cup of hay pellets and his grain, and mix the wormer in nicely. Maybe drizzle some molasses over the top, or some chopped up carrots/apples. Pony thinks he's died and gone to Heaven, and I know he's getting every spec of dewormer in him cause I'm watching him lick his bowl 10 minutes after all the food is gone. :lol:

Btw, what is your vet charging that you find so ridiculous? Mine does $20, I think, which is super reasonable if you're only doing it once or twice a year and not spending the $100+ on paste dewormers.

2DogsFarm
May. 9, 2011, 01:11 PM
So they're trying to get people to stop spending as much $$ in their shop? ;)

RE: your earlier post - you have obviously done your homework, me not so much :cool:
But you can bet I'll be discussing the issue with my vet next week.

My theory re: tack shop sales was that if they sell (to someone with 10 horses) 10 tubes ivermection ~ $50-60, 10 tubes moxidectin ~ $150-200
The same 10 (weekly) doses of Strongid would cost ~ $7
More profit selling the marked-up pastewormer than the marked-up DW

you made me do math...now my head hurts :cry:

morganpony86
May. 9, 2011, 01:16 PM
well I use a DW on my horse because I board where horses come and go all the time. Her fecals have always been zero. the barn doesn't do fecals at all. Only rotational worming. If the horse was on my own property where I can control her environment then she wouldn't need worming hardly ever. But that is not the case.

As I said, I board at a show barn where horses come and go all the time and my own horses travel (to shows, clinics, other barns) all the time, and they're still low shedders and don't require deworming more than two times a year.

My barn also "requires" rotational deworming, but I asked the BO if I could forgo it, and provide her with the fecal results (and subsequent vet recommendations of deworming schedules) and she hasn't had a single problem with it.

JB
May. 9, 2011, 01:18 PM
RE: your earlier post - you have obviously done your homework, me not so much :cool:
But you can bet I'll be discussing the issue with my vet next week.
A discussion with your vet is always a great idea :yes: :) I would never presume to encourage otherwise :) Just understand that many, many vets just are not up to date on the current issues regarding parasites.


My theory re: tack shop sales was that if they sell (to someone with 10 horses) 10 tubes ivermection ~ $50-60, 10 tubes moxidectin ~ $150-200
The same 10 (weekly) doses of Strongid would cost ~ $7
More profit selling the marked-up pastewormer than the marked-up DW

you made me do math...now my head hurts :cry:
LOLOL

sophie
May. 9, 2011, 02:32 PM
I've never trusted the Daily Wormer thing. Resistance to meds is a BIG worry and not just in the horse world...it's getting really scary.

So, I've always only de-wormed a few times a year, with ivermectin and with ivermectin/praziquantel, or moxidectin, Spring and Fall. I have never done a fecal, because I know they don't show all the parasites present in the horse (such as encysted Strongyles - but I may be wrong...). I probably will have one done tho, just out of curiosity.

JB
May. 9, 2011, 02:43 PM
It's probably a good idea to have one done at the 5-6 month mark, just before you do the next 6-month deworming. You're probably going to be fine. But it would help to know if you''ve actually got a high shedding horse and he's spending 3+months with a high strongyle load before you knock them down again.

My horses have been low-shedders for the 5+ years I've been doing FECs. So, not a random false negative. At my semi-annual FEC last Sept, both came back quite high - over 1000 :eek: There was no reason for it - nobody had come or gone in 2 years. The Spring FEC was clean. It didn't make sense, but it was what it was. So, to that end, I used Quest in Sept, and in Dec, well after a good freeze, I did my normal Equimax. The Spring FEC was again clean and I did Equimax again. It will be quite interesting to see what Sept brings again.

subk
May. 9, 2011, 03:07 PM
It would be a really good idea for you to sit down and watch the Strategic Deworming webinar at http://www.thehorse.com/Videos/Webinars.aspx
It very well explains the resistance issues and why you should not simply deworm every 8 weeks, OR rely on DWs.

I see there is a new series as well, with Part I just having come out May 3
http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?n=worms-in-horses-series-part-1&vID=515
I would highly, highly recommend The Horse webinars to everyone.

Another reason to scrap the DW is to get it out of your compost pile.

equinelerium
May. 9, 2011, 04:42 PM
Resistance to meds is a BIG worry and not just in the horse world...it's getting really scary.

This! I switched to doing fecals on my vet's suggestion. For me it seemed win/win-easier on the pocket book and less effort on my part.

Not too long after making that decision, a dear friend of mine struggled with an infection that just did not respond to antibiotics. After watching what she went through-an infection that should have just required a quick trip to the Dr turning into a prolonged hospitalization, I've become admittedly paranoid about the whole resistance issue.

karlymacrae
May. 9, 2011, 05:16 PM
We run a small, private boarding facility and I prefer to manage the worming programs for all of the horses. We only have 4 boarders (and 4 horses of our own) so it's not a big deal.

Our horses are tested once a year, sometimes twice if we've changed the horse's program and need to re-test. I collect all fecal samples, take them to the vet's office, and consult with the vet re: worming programs. Then I write it all into the calendar (which wormers, which horses, which months) as well as the next "test date."

The test fees and wormers are added to their board bill. I've never had a boarder object to this and they usually save money, along with the assurance that every horse in the barn is on a proper worming regime.

WorthTheWait95
May. 9, 2011, 05:49 PM
This topic is everywhere in the veterinary world right now even though I know it's not a new concept. Seems like not a day goes by that I don't get an email asking for help working another client education meeting on targeted deworming. The clinicians here only recommend the individual deworming protocol now. They've been having client education seminars like crazy to try and spread the word. The vast majority of clinics in the area are doing the same and many of the companies producing dewormers are sending representatives out to give client talks about targeted deworming via fecals. It seems like just in the last few months the topic has really picked up steam...I know the clinic I work for on weekends has seen a huge spike in fecals. One of the presenters going around has a chart about cost saved with the individual deworming vs traditional rotational deworming and it really is pretty substantial so it's a win-win for horse owners hopefully.

I've always done fecals to deworm and never had a problem. Daily dewormers just never made sense to me (although they are still recommended in certain situations even with this protocol) and the double dose fad just made me cringe. I have a horse with pretty severe uveitis though so any pointless drugs/immune system irritants are avoided at all costs to prevent flares.

Chief2
May. 10, 2011, 08:20 AM
Ka-CHING!

I fell for the whole 'it's all in the science' drive, too, until my SIL told me about her vet visit to the farm and what he had to say on all of this. I think my SIL is right. It's the money. The companies have seized upon the resistance issue, cranked up the drama factor so paranoid horse owners will be more highly motivated to act, are making money off of the alternative worming products and test kits, and laughing all the way to the bank. There may be resistance, but there's a lot of marketing behind this drive as well. In one week alone my feed store raised the price of Equimax from $12 to $20 a tube.

Not all vets are onboard with the fecal exam drive now being marketed as well. I have a handout in front of me from a respected vet in Massachusetts who is against this wholesale ordering of fecal exams that has become the fad of the moment (we get these fads every year--the disease of the moment. This one seems to have a 2 year existence), primarily because strongyle larva takes up to 5 months to mature, resulting in a negative exam and thus producing limitations in fecal exams. Now, maybe he just doesn't want his office being clogged up by fecal exams coming out of the wazoo, or isn't interested in having his name associated with vets promoting this just to make some badly needed extra cash. Just an opinion. It won't go well with the folks posting novel-length opinions on this, or picking apart other people's posts point by point to prove that they MUST be right. But when the vets and the drug companies all get together with a program that produces a lot of money, and the sheep are following by the flock load, it bears watching.

GoForAGallop
May. 10, 2011, 10:36 AM
Ka-CHING!

I fell for the whole 'it's all in the science' drive, too, until my SIL told me about her vet visit to the farm and what he had to say on all of this. I think my SIL is right. It's the money. .

Okay, but, it's not, is the thing. Sorry. Have you actually done the math out?

Rotational worming, two month: Figuring about $12 a tube of wormer, that's $72 a year. Give or take a bit depending on if you shop around for your wormers/which ones you use/etc.

Daily wormer: Strongid, from Smartpak, $150 a year.

"Worming as Needed": 2 fecals a year, $20 from my vet or $15 from Horseman's Lab or wherever. Two tubes of wormer to respond to fecals, another $24, give or take. So approximately $65 a year.

Sorry, there is no giant money-making scheme going on. Perhaps certain companies (the labs who run the fecals, certain wormers recommended over others) are making more money than their peers who used to be on top, but that's just how business works. There's no giant conspiracy between vets/worming companies to funnel money out of horse owner's pockets. :lol:

Plus, out of curiousity, how do you/this vet who handed out the paper intend to deal with the DOCUMENTED, PROVEN, WORLD-WIDE CONCERN of parasite resistance? Clearly our current program is not working.

WorthTheWait95
May. 10, 2011, 04:04 PM
Okay, but, it's not, is the thing. Sorry. Have you actually done the math out?

Rotational worming, two month: Figuring about $12 a tube of wormer, that's $72 a year. Give or take a bit depending on if you shop around for your wormers/which ones you use/etc.

Daily wormer: Strongid, from Smartpak, $150 a year.

"Worming as Needed": 2 fecals a year, $20 from my vet or $15 from Horseman's Lab or wherever. Two tubes of wormer to respond to fecals, another $24, give or take. So approximately $65 a year.

Sorry, there is no giant money-making scheme going on. Perhaps certain companies (the labs who run the fecals, certain wormers recommended over others) are making more money than their peers who used to be on top, but that's just how business works. There's no giant conspiracy between vets/worming companies to funnel money out of horse owner's pockets. :lol:

Plus, out of curiousity, how do you/this vet who handed out the paper intend to deal with the DOCUMENTED, PROVEN, WORLD-WIDE CONCERN of parasite resistance? Clearly our current program is not working.

:yes::yes:

We ran the numbers for our barn and the savings was actually significant.

We have an 8 horse herd currently (not counting my uveitis horse) and were doing a 3 way rotation every two months. All of our horses are large warmbloods that require slightly less than 2 tubes/deworming to get the adequate dose. With the brands of dewormer we prefer the average cost/tube was around $20.00 (it may have been possible to get it cheaper online but we like to support our local feed store).

Our costs last year for a rotational deworming schedule:
2 tubes/horse x $20.00 x 6 dewormings/year= $240/horse
Total yearly barn cost: $240 x 8 horses= $1920

Our projected costs this year:
2 fecals/year @ $15 each + deworming 2x/year @ $40/horse= $110/horse
Total yearly barn cost: $110 x 8 horses= $880

Total savings with this system: $1040/year!

To me that is a significant savings with the added benefit of combating the resistance issue while putting fewer pointless chemicals into my horses! The new protocol deworming costs assume our horses will remain low shedders and only require the biannual deworming but there's obviously a large amount of wiggle room to keep this system as more economical even if we do have to up the deworming occasionally based on the fecal results. Numbers will of course vary depending on location, your clinics fee for fecals, etc but I haven't come across a barn or owner yet that isn't saving money with this system assuming their horses aren't very high shedders which would hopefully be a temporary situation anyway.

This isn't a money making scheme, it's a possible solution to a world wide problem in the horse industry.

JB
May. 10, 2011, 04:20 PM
How scary that there are vets who not only think it's a money-making fad, but also are obviously ignorant about VERY well proven, on-going, and growing resistance issues, and apparently don't have any desire to change that ignorance :( :no:

Seal Harbor
May. 10, 2011, 05:16 PM
Daily dewormer is like taking a low dose of pain medication every day.. is it going to work the same months or years down the road as it did when you first started taking it? nope.


Actually it is far worse than that. It is the same as taking a low dose antibiotic everyday. Overtime the things that antibiotic would kill are immune to it.

2DogsFarm
May. 18, 2011, 05:27 PM
OK - vet was out yesterday and I presented my case for switching to FEC and 2X yearly pasting based on results.

He put forth a valid point:
Once you identify infestation - baed on FEC - that means your pastures are now infected as well as the horses.

For $35 (for both) I got negative FEC results, same day, for both horse & pony & based on our discussion I will stay with the Strongid year-round, adding Ivermectin (pony) & Moxidectin (horse) for tapeworms in the Spring.

Annual cost for both horses:
Strongid $480
Ivermectin/Moxidectin $20-30
Averages out to $42.50/month

GraceLikeRain
May. 18, 2011, 07:10 PM
Whole barn does fecals and worms accordingly. Absolutely no need to use outdated rotational deworming or daily deworm and help the drug-resistance problem. This saves owners money in both the short and long run. Total no brainer.

JB
May. 18, 2011, 09:44 PM
He put forth a valid point:
Once you identify infestation - baed on FEC - that means your pastures are now infected as well as the horses.
No, it means the *pasture* is infected.

It doesn't change the fact that 80-90% of the horses out there are quite capable of keeping most parasites under control on their own, particularly related to strongyles. It's what their immune system helps with.

Last Sept mine came up hot at over 1000. That meant my pasture was then "infected. Yet after deworming them then, taking care of the current load, they came up clean in March. Winters here are a time when parasites are really not slowed down a whole lot. Some, yes, but not a lot.

Parasite eggs can live for a really long time in the soil. The pastures are already "infected"


For $35 (for both) I got negative FEC results, same day, for both horse & pony & based on our discussion I will stay with the Strongid year-round, adding Ivermectin (pony) & Moxidectin (horse) for tapeworms in the Spring.
Neither of those chemicals kill tapeworms

GoForAGallop
May. 18, 2011, 11:43 PM
Neither of those chemicals kill tapeworms

Ayup...2Dogs...either you are misunderstanding what your vet is saying, or he is so unknowledgeable about worming that I would be afraid to use him for anything more complex.

2DogsFarm
May. 19, 2011, 06:39 AM
Ayup...2Dogs...either you are misunderstanding what your vet is saying, or he is so unknowledgeable about worming that I would be afraid to use him for anything more complex.

Please don't diss the vet - blame me surfing @ work (illegal use of internet) & distracted.
What I meant to say was Praziquantel for tapes = Quest Plus for the horse, Zimectrin for pony

HappyTalk
May. 19, 2011, 08:40 AM
I use FEC and I have two horses that have not needed to be wormed in over a year. I had one that went from zero to about 125, but that was due to him being boarded out for the winter. I do think horse build up a natural immunity. The two horses with zero are over 20 years old. I have a closed herd.

On the other hand, the FEC at the boarding barn where my horse was tended to be on the high side.

JB
May. 19, 2011, 09:11 AM
What I meant to say was Praziquantel for tapes = Quest Plus for the horse, Zimectrin for pony

QP isn't available atm :)

And please, regardless of what else you choose to do regarding the DW, don't use Zimecterin Gold. Just search here - msj even has a current thread in Horse Care. The issues with ulcerations are just too much.

JB
May. 19, 2011, 09:12 AM
I use FEC and I have two horses that have not needed to be wormed in over a year. I had one that went from zero to about 125, but that was due to him being boarded out for the winter. I do think horse build up a natural immunity. The two horses with zero are over 20 years old. I have a closed herd.

On the other hand, the FEC at the boarding barn where my horse was tended to be on the high side.
Hopefully though you have dewormed for tapeworms and bots?

2DogsFarm
May. 19, 2011, 12:17 PM
QP isn't available atm :)

And please, regardless of what else you choose to do regarding the DW, don't use Zimecterin Gold. Just search here - msj even has a current thread in Horse Care. The issues with ulcerations are just too much.

:eek: Holy Shmoly!
Thanks for the heads-up on ZG.
What happened to Q+?
Oh nevermind, I'll just Equimax them both.

JB
May. 19, 2011, 01:17 PM
Welcome :)

QP was sold, and there were contractual issues with the supplier of the ingredients. Soooooo, everyone is on hold (been on hold for what, a year now? :() until it gets figured out.

I don't know why ComboCare, the only other mox/prazi product, disappeared. Bet they wish they hadn't now LOL