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ottb_dressage
May. 8, 2011, 09:43 PM
Sad news...but definitely very thankful he will be ok in the long run. Hope that he gets some well deserved R & R before moving on to the (likely) stallion barn.
Very bummed for the connections though...I hope that Jon and Jinks get another shot at the Derby.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2011/05/08/archarcharch-retired.aspx

jljohnson740
May. 8, 2011, 10:08 PM
How could this jockey have not known this horse was injured. I'm frankly surprised there is no talk about this. I believe he had to know..I know it's hard to stop a race horse..I know this is one fast paced traffic filled race..however..I can't imagine that he did not know...now Arch's career is over...it's horrible.

dani0303
May. 8, 2011, 10:09 PM
Glad his connections made this call and didn't try to push him back into racing. Hoping he lives a long and healthy life. I really like this horse.

jljohnson740
May. 8, 2011, 10:10 PM
Also...he's a gelding so no breeding barn for him.:((((

danceronice
May. 8, 2011, 10:19 PM
How could this jockey have not known this horse was injured. I'm frankly surprised there is no talk about this. I believe he had to know..I know it's hard to stop a race horse..I know this is one fast paced traffic filled race..however..I can't imagine that he did not know...now Arch's career is over...it's horrible.

The saddle slipped and he got run away with. They went over it in the post-race on NBC. He was trying to get control back down most of the stretch but when you're also trying not to fall off and get killed and the horse is in freight-train mode there's not much to be done. Since the injury seems to have happened at the break and it's not likely they'd race a horse that valuable again on screws it didn't really matter anyway. He was done at the start. I feel bad for the jockey, really. Cort has the WORST luck--his first Derby after all this time and the horse stumbles right out of the gate.

ottb_dressage
May. 8, 2011, 10:23 PM
Must have missed that he was a gelding...silly brain...too busy planning too many parties and wasn't reading with my brain...LOL
Well, hopefully then the connections allow him to retire happily either in one of their home pastures, or maybe head over to Old Friends...would be neat if the public could be able to visit him :)
I think Jon acknowledged that the horse didn't feel quite like himself, and he let him just coast home and pulled up as soon as it was safe. I think had he tried to forcefully pull him up in traffic along the backstretch, he may have actually risked worse injury, not just to himself, but to other horses around him. I don't think Jon could tell how bad the injury was...just that the horse didn't seem full of run like he normally would have been. I can't imagine that Jon, being the class act that he is, and truly caring for the horses he rides, would have done anything to risk hurting that horse any more. I think if he had felt that the injury was severe down the backside, he would have tried everything he could to pull the horse up then and there.

Texarkana
May. 8, 2011, 10:23 PM
He's a colt, not a gelding. He's still got his breeding equipment.

ottb_dressage
May. 8, 2011, 10:26 PM
Tex...thank you for confirming that...I guess I did actually remember some of what I was reading in the articles about the Derby and injury...Sometimes I think I wouldn't remember my head if it wasn't attached LOL!

jljohnson740
May. 8, 2011, 10:29 PM
Oh...it mattered alright...he could have been put down with an injury like that...Court has no integrity...saddle or not...he's "suppose" to know..that's his job and when in doubt....get out one way or the other...it can be done.

MHM
May. 9, 2011, 01:03 AM
That's too bad that he's done racing, but- wow! They bought him as a yearling for $60K and he's won $830K?!? Plus (presumably) he'll make some money as a stallion.

That's a pretty good return!

I hope they get another shot in the future.

Calamber
May. 9, 2011, 05:38 AM
Is this horse truly by Dynaformer? If so, welcome to Dynaformer breeding. Who is recommending that he be bred and for what reason? So that more can break there legs in the early 3 year old year. Sadly he is not a gelding maybe then he won't reproduce the proclivity.

keepthelegend
May. 9, 2011, 05:48 AM
Is this horse truly by Dynaformer? If so, welcome to Dynaformer breeding. Who is recommending that he be bred and for what reason? So that more can break there legs in the early 3 year old year. Sadly he is not a gelding maybe then he won't reproduce the proclivity.


He is by Arch. Getting bumped and taking a bad step is not a genetic trait. Racehorses are going to get hurt. If every horse that got hurt did not become a stallion, think of the wonderful SOUND horses we would have missed out on....Zenyatta, who raced until she was 6, is by a sire that missed the Derby due to injury and later retired due to injury. Just one of millions of examples

keepthelegend
May. 9, 2011, 06:00 AM
Oh...it mattered alright...he could have been put down with an injury like that...Court has no integrity...saddle or not...he's "suppose" to know..that's his job and when in doubt....get out one way or the other...it can be done.


It's not that easy sometimes. Adrenaline can often cause a horse to run through pain or just not even notice it.....it's why so many injuries are not noticed until the horse cools out. Plus if the saddle did slip the horse is going to feel a bit different anyway just due to the position of the jockey. Having "no integrity" is a ridiculous thing to say

Calamber
May. 9, 2011, 06:26 AM
He is by Arch. Getting bumped and taking a bad step is not a genetic trait. Racehorses are going to get hurt. If every horse that got hurt did not become a stallion, think of the wonderful SOUND horses we would have missed out on....Zenyatta, who raced until she was 6, is by a sire that missed the Derby due to injury and later retired due to injury. Just one of millions of examples

True to the last part. I did not know his breeding but there seem to be a preponderance of horses breaking their legs in the classic races and I am frustrated and disinheartened by it. I did not see a bump causing the stumble though, if he was hurt, the jockey flailing about on his neck because of a slipped saddle could have caused much more damage. It is insane to think the jockey is at fault, he was fighting for his life to stay on board.

ksetrider
May. 9, 2011, 08:30 AM
Said it in another post and I will say it again :) I've had this guy as my derby pick for a month now. Got to see him fly by 3 furlongs in and load onto the ambulance. Got a home waiting for him if he's done racing and not breeding material. Anyone know how to get ahold of trainer or owners? Ps. I am not a fan of racing! I went to the derby as an exciting experience. I wAs back to sad about racing the moment the race was over. I was more upset about Archie than excited about the 400 I won on animal kingdom!

Laurierace
May. 9, 2011, 08:40 AM
Ksetrider, I imagine he will stand at stud next season somewhere but even if he doesn't I am sure they can come up with a good situation for him. You can cross owning a Derby horse off your to do list.

Big_Tag
May. 9, 2011, 08:46 AM
Ksetrider, I imagine he will stand at stud next season somewhere but even if he doesn't I am sure they can come up with a good situation for him. You can cross owning a Derby horse off your to do list.

Or, cross it off your list this way if you want ;)
http://www.horseadoption.com/adopt-a-former-kentucky-derby-horse/

AppJumpr08
May. 9, 2011, 08:46 AM
I had a horse on the farm who developed a condylar fracture in training - never made it to his first start. I had a mare fracture her femur on the field (on a beautiful sunny day in August with not a drop of mud anywhere - we still don't know how she managed it). Horses break. Sometimes they are unfortunate enough to do it in the public eye. But I'm not sure I'd agree more horses are breaking now than they were, and I don't believe for a second it only happens in the high profile situations.


I hope Archarcharch recovers quickly, and goes on to live a long and comfortable life.

ksetrider
May. 9, 2011, 09:16 AM
Ty Big Tag!!! I actually just took the plunge and adopted a great little mare. I was fostering her since September and the more she filled out and then when she jumped out of her paddock I said done deal! Got myself a new baby green :) but since I witnessed archies accident and so on thought I would throw it out there before he starts moving hands. Owners have done right by him from the start so I sure he will be fine. My new horse is my first adoption and my cheapest by far. Cant beat free!!!!! I can't wait til I wAlk into the show ring with her!

keepthelegend
May. 9, 2011, 09:56 AM
Said it in another post and I will say it again :) I've had this guy as my derby pick for a month now. Got to see him fly by 3 furlongs in and load onto the ambulance. Got a home waiting for him if he's done racing and not breeding material. Anyone know how to get ahold of trainer or owners? Ps. I am not a fan of racing! I went to the derby as an exciting experience. I wAs back to sad about racing the moment the race was over. I was more upset about Archie than excited about the 400 I won on animal kingdom!

He is worth somewhere around 2 million as a stallion prospect so don't think owners are looking for a home

vineyridge
May. 9, 2011, 10:39 AM
gotta say that if he was running on a broken bone from the break, the jockey should have felt something, stopped the horse and gotten off. They are supposed to be trained at that. Going back to Barbaro, Prado got him stopped and got off in the middle of the track in the Preakness.

MHM
May. 9, 2011, 10:53 AM
Is there anyplace to watch an isolated replay of Archarcharch's race? I didn't see all the coverage the other day.

Was it visible that the saddle had slipped?

caffeinated
May. 9, 2011, 11:11 AM
Is there anyplace to watch an isolated replay of Archarcharch's race? I didn't see all the coverage the other day.

Was it visible that the saddle had slipped?

I thought it was - looked to me like he was up on the horse's neck with not a lot of leverage save what he could use to stay on.

A picture from after the race does appear to show the saddle well forward of where it would normally be (http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/timesonline.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/1/a0/ae1/1a0ae1fd-d3d3-5d7b-bc01-bd78c6dea538-revisions/4dc5fa06e6328.image.jpg).

Thing is, the snippets I've read suggest he didn't know anything was really wrong till towards the end of the race, when the horse didn't "fire" like normal.

Mara
May. 9, 2011, 11:23 AM
gotta say that if he was running on a broken bone from the break, the jockey should have felt something, stopped the horse and gotten off. They are supposed to be trained at that. Going back to Barbaro, Prado got him stopped and got off in the middle of the track in the Preakness.

Barbaro's ankle was shattered and the injury was immediately apparent to everyone. Apples and oranges - I don't know what the extent of Archie's fracture is, but a non-displacement may not be obvious, especially when the horse is high on race time adrenalin.

Plus Court had his braking capacity severely compromised by the slipped saddle. Go back and read the account of the 1978 Jockey Club Gold Cup in which Affirmed's saddle slipped in the first eighth - Affirmed took off and Cauthen said he was more or less unable to rate the horse as a result. That was that for Affirmed.

evntr5218
May. 9, 2011, 03:12 PM
Oh...it mattered alright...he could have been put down with an injury like that...Court has no integrity...saddle or not...he's "suppose" to know..that's his job and when in doubt....get out one way or the other...it can be done.

I think to say that the jockey has no integirty is a bit extreme. Pretty sure when his saddle slipped in the beginning of the race his main objective was to try and stay in control of the horse so that he and his horse as well as the other jockeys and horses were not injured or interfered with. Not an easy job to do when you are on an animal going at such a high rate of speed hopped up on adrenaline.

Lynnwood
May. 9, 2011, 04:19 PM
I would assume just for sporting and safety sake that no jockey would drive a horse on when they clearly know something is wrong. Its the Kentucky Derby nobody on that field was racing for second place.. if you knew your horse was JNR and winning was not even a remote option I doubt some devious immoral side suddenly appeared and made him push the horse on.

Jockeys get hurt and die under the best circumstances in racing and especially one that is so public there is no way in heck that man knew that horse was hurt and pressed him on to what could have been a fatal accident for more then just the horse and he.

Bad steps and accidents happen yes we see it publicly more often now on we have better media coverage 2 horses are just not run as much as they used to. 60 years ago horses broke down too in their 3rd , 4th and 5ths starts the only diffence is those horses were not in the Derby by the time big races came around the good horses were on their 10-20 plus starts. Racing had culled those that were going to break down.. now due to the abilty to manage and limit horses starts they break down in public during high pressure situations more often. IMO run them more you'll see less public break downs but not less break downs.

animaldoc
May. 9, 2011, 07:21 PM
gotta say that if he was running on a broken bone from the break, the jockey should have felt something, stopped the horse and gotten off. They are supposed to be trained at that. Going back to Barbaro, Prado got him stopped and got off in the middle of the track in the Preakness.
Barbaro had a catastrophic breakdown - cannon bone fracture, both sesamoids and suspensory ligament ruptured. Also open. Think of the (horrific) pictures of the dangling leg.

That doesn't compare at ALL to the reports that Archarcharch had a nondisplaced lateral condylar fracture. This is generally a corner off the cannon bone (I haven't seen films) and doesn't involve the sesamoids or ligaments at all. He walked on the ambulance and actually looked relatively sound (not surprising with all the adrenaline flowing.)

Many horses that have lateral condylar fractures are found to have them after a race or a workout - depending on the fracture, the prognosis is excellent for racing. Unfortunately in some cases there is articular cartlidge damage that will predispose them to early arthritis in that joint and will limit their racing careers. Can't tell that until you scope the joint at surgery. He could have had cartlidge damage prior to the fracture, he could have started the crack when he stumbled and then made it a complete fracture (where it comes out the side of the cannon bone) during the race, or who knows.

Either way, I think the jockey did a great job pulling him up and he got excellent care immediately. So glad that it wasn't a life-threatening injury and he's headed for retirement.

Laurierace
May. 9, 2011, 09:32 PM
Barbaro's injury was not an open fracture. Not that it matters now.

Big_Tag
May. 9, 2011, 09:43 PM
Barbaro's injury was not an open fracture. Not that it matters now.

Thought the same thing :) I also think comparing Arch-cubed's injury to Barbaro's is asinine. The former walked away fine. He's going to be fine. It's unfortunate but it happens and anyone who thinks the jockey tried to run him through a perceived feeling of "NQR" is quite, quite wrong. This is the derby. Not some podunk dirtbag claiming race. NOT saying all trainers/jockeys with podunk claimers would run them into the ground, but no one in their right mind is going to run a horse of A's caliber any further than when he feels something is legitimately wrong.

Calamber
May. 10, 2011, 05:40 AM
Is there anyplace to watch an isolated replay of Archarcharch's race? I didn't see all the coverage the other day.

Was it visible that the saddle had slipped?

Here is the race, if you keep you eye on Arch, you can see it. It also shows that he was not bumped at all at the start, he actually broke absolutely cleanly and free of any contact, he stumbled coming out of the gate. Whether the stumble was because of the bone break or because he took the proverbial "bad step", no way of knowing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVi6-83TAtA

Calamber
May. 10, 2011, 05:43 AM
Barbaro's injury was not an open fracture. Not that it matters now.

Right, don't know where Animaldoc got that it was open (maybe the veterinary training causes memory lapse?).

AppJumpr08
May. 10, 2011, 08:58 AM
There is a huge difference between a horse "breaking" during a race, and "breaking down".

Grataan
May. 10, 2011, 09:31 AM
Am I the only one who distinctly remembers Jerry Bailey saying Jon Court was trying to pull the horse up during the race? He went on to say something about how he wasn't going to be very successful at it with his head up between the horse's ears and that it was lucky he was able to stay on.

Mara
May. 10, 2011, 09:37 AM
Am I the only one who distinctly remembers Jerry Bailey saying Jon Court was trying to pull the horse up during the race? He went on to say something about how he wasn't going to be very successful at it with his head up between the horse's ears and that it was lucky he was able to stay on.

No, I remember that too - just couldn't remember the source. Thanks. :)

danceronice
May. 10, 2011, 09:48 AM
Am I the only one who distinctly remembers Jerry Bailey saying Jon Court was trying to pull the horse up during the race? He went on to say something about how he wasn't going to be very successful at it with his head up between the horse's ears and that it was lucky he was able to stay on.

Yep, I remember that, and thinking thank god he didn't fall off in the middle of the pack. That could have been very ugly indeed for a lot of horses and riders.

animaldoc
May. 10, 2011, 09:18 PM
Barbaro's injury was not an open fracture. Not that it matters now.
Yikes! My bad - just found the write up in JAVMA from 7/15/06:
"Though the skin was not broken in the initial injury, infection remained a concern. "I would say the chances of a catastrophic infection at this point are diminishing because of the fact that we've got a horse that has had a normal body temperature for basically the whole time he's been here. His blood work has been consistently good. He's showing no lameness," Dr. Richardson said. "But that doesn't rule out the possibility that we could get some infection that could slow up fracture healing and end up being a major complication."

Thanks Laurie....

animaldoc
May. 10, 2011, 09:19 PM
Right, don't know where Animaldoc got that it was open (maybe the veterinary training causes memory lapse?).

Ha! LOL Nope - more likely the lapse was from the fact that I had my first child right around Derby Day (so she was 2 wks old at the Preakness that year) and that I now have ANOTHER little one. I'm forgetting more and more of what I learned in school so long ago every day! :-)

Calamber
May. 11, 2011, 12:03 AM
That's it alright! Hormone depletion or overload. I get the same thing without a child or children.

EightBelles134
May. 13, 2011, 02:54 PM
i'm just glad Arch3's retiring and that his injury wasn't worse.I also feel like for Arch3 to run that far on a fracture,it shows he had heart