"Tragedy" of errors at CCI* in Kentucky. Long rant. [Archive]

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:02 AM

So I had this great weekend planned for a group of friends. What a fiasco it turned out to be and how UNIMPRESSED my friends were with the eventing world.

Sorry, but I spent a LOT and my friends spent a LOT in time and $$$ for all this and so I'm venting (AND filling out a very negative report on it, too! I have every intention of letting USEA and the organizers hear my vent, too!).

I AM APPALLED by the organization of this event. Not just that they cancelled the steeplechase--indeed, given the conditions, that was understandable. The problem was the dreadful lack of communication under conditions that could have resulted in real tragedy.

I'd love to hear from others who may have gone through dealing with a rider fall/injury, since this was my first time having to deal with it: Christan took a bad fall on her first horse...and it took 45 minutes for those of us waiting in the barn and in the vet box area to even KNOW THAT SHE HAD FALLEN!!!!!

How can it be that people waiting in the vetbox have to run around asking where their rider is after horse after horse comes home and their rider doesn't? Why the heck wasn't the PA system working in the vet area or the barns during the CCI* cross country? Why didn't the organizers send a runner or something when she was taken to the medic?

It's not like one can see the entire course to know what's going on, right? The announcer didn't follow the horses around the course consistently and there was a horrific echo in the PA system in the area where most of the spectators were, so it was barely understandable! I had four people standing on the best viewing hill and NONE OF THEM had a clue what had happened.

In fact, so clueless were they that, to make matters worse, they actually mistook a gray horse walking back from the course to be Christan, when it was actually someone else--so there they sat, wondering why she failed to arrive when she was seen walking back...how riddiculous! I walk up, they say she's walking back, having had three refusals (which she HADN'T had at all--so unclear was the announcing as to what horse was being referred to!). I make the decision to meet her back at the barn, since who to be crowded by people after such embarassment as a three-refusal elimination, right?

Turns out, that gray WASN'T Christan, she hadn't had refusals, she'd had a fall and we had no idea!!!! Indeed, the horse fell in such a way that it busted her girth and tossed her on her head, leaving her with very, very real short-term memory loss. (As I drove her to the hospital, she kept asking the same questions over and over again, never remembering that I'd already answered them. Scary! And then the doctor doesn't tell the nurse about the memory issue, so the nurse asks her about something and actually gets pissed off when Christan claims the nurse never asked her! Unbelievable! And there was more involving the hospital, but this isn't the forum for that--only thing I shoudl say is that if you ever get hospitalized in KY, make sure someone is there to check and double check on what is happening to you!)

Meanwhile, those medical armbands? How come no one actually USES them? I'm a bit outraged that the medic didn't refer to the armband. It's dangerous to assume that everyone associated with a rider KNOWS the rider's history and/or knows the nature of eventing or whatever, right? What if it's some young adult showing alone, no family or friends with him or her, jsut strangers trying to help out? The medic knows about the armband and what information is on it, right? The medic should know how it should be used, right? So shouldn't the medic inform whoever takes charge of the rider afterward, be it EMTs or friendly strangers or business associates (like us)? Christan rides for me, but I don't know her allergies, her parents' contact information, her medical coverage, her past injuries...Isn't that armband supposed to have that information on it and be referred to when these things arise? She was wearing one, but when I finally found her in the secretary's stand, no one mentioned it--and here I was with a head injury and a not-very-coherent person on the way to the hospital!

Egad! My friends--potential Connor sponsors, in fact--were equally appalled. How the heck can one get SUPPORT for a talented horse when it seems that all he's doing is competing in some half-assed sport where people risk their necks and no one knows what to do when something goes wrong? I'm NOT a hands-on owner. I haven't watched Con compete in over two years (I went to AEC, but I didn't watch him go). I seriously doubt I'm that unusual or that Christan's situation--competing alone or with very little help--is that unusual either...right?

So what is the sport's responsibility here? I know that people have thought this over carefully--that's where the armband and other safety requirements came from...but at this event, someone really dropped the ball and it presented a very, very bad example for my friends and Connor's supporters.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:02 AM

Magnolia

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:08 AM

Is your rider OK?

Sounds like the EMT's dropped the ball?

UNCeventer

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:19 AM

Yeah I evented "alone" once- I brought an old friend from high school that used to ride back in the day. I was afraid of something happening....who would drive the trailer back? Who would contact the 'rents?

Hope Christan is ok.

Miss Maddie

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:22 AM

I'm so sorry to hear of Christan's fall, I hope she is OK???? It won't be the first bad hospital experience she's had, and the other one wasn't in KY!!

I'm not sure about all the circumstances there, I agree it does not sound well organized. But in my one experience with a bad fall at an event, I assure you that the EMTs were there, although I tried to get up on my own they wouldn't let me and they took me to the hospital in the ambulance. My horse was taken care of, and the organizers (Pine Top) even came to visit me in the hospital that weekend despite running a busy event! My experience with the safety procedures in that case was *very* positive, so hopefully this was just a one time scenario.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:27 AM

It is sometimes a policy NOT to report injuries on the PA system.

But the vet box SHOULD have been in radio communication with someone on the cross country course who could report on the whereabouts of each rider. Are you sure you aked the right people in the vet box?

Medical cards are a mixed blessing. EMTs have told me that they would be considered negligent if they took ANY particular action based on something like a medical card (e.g. blood type, allergies or lack thereoff), without independant confirmation. But the hospital is definitely going to want the insurance information.

Short term memory loss, including asking the same questions OVER and OVER and OVER again, and forgetting that you asked, or were asked, a question earlier, is a VERY common sumpton of concussion. Scary the first time you encounter it, but very common. I am suprised the hospital staff weren't more familiar with it. Every time I have been to a hospital for concussion (either my own, or with someone who had one), the ER staff has dealt with it perfectly well.

retreadeventer

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:29 AM

There are event evaluation forms at the USEA website that anyone competing can fill out. As the owner of a competing horse I believe you certainly are entitled to report what happened and how it happened on the form. I know that the forms are at the Area 2 website, as you were in KY., perhaps check that area's website for it. Event evaluation forms really help to pinpoint the lacking qualities and help provide info to all without personalization. JMO.

tle

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>But the vet box SHOULD have been in radio communication with someone on the cross country course who could report on the whereabouts of each rider. Are you sure you aked the right people in the vet box? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can atest to the fact that the vet box DID have a radio and more or less DID know. Dr. Debbie had 2 in fact and there was another under the tent. After looking up Christian's number, I do recall hearing something about horse #49 and knew not to look for them in the box any time soon -- and I was a lowly temp-taker.

As an announcer, I am often leary about announcing injuries, especially of the ambulance variety -- if not downright told not to announce it. Had a young rider taken to the hospital with serious injuries at an event this year and I announced VERY little of it at the time other than a hold on course and the timing of resuming the action. After we heard back from the hospital I announced her condition, etc., but at the time I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to announce things over the PA when 1) you have other riders preparing to go and 2) without a thorough evaluation by an MD all you have is speculation and that is NOT what is needed to announce.

I have no problem with your vent or the need to vent to the appropriate people, but had a few thoughts on what you had written from my perspective.

I do hope Christian is ok!!

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:49 AM

Erm, maybe I'm missing something... it's kind of hard to figure out what actually happened from the original post, because the actual facts are mixed in with lots of ranting. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

It sounds like your major beef is that someone didn't come running to find you after the rider had a fall, and that you weren't able to find her yourself immediately due to the fact that there was some confusion as to where she was and what had happened on course.

Maybe I'm just an easygoing person, but I don't really see any reason to get pissy at the event, the USEA, or the organizers. It sounds like the rider was seen by a medic, and she had people with her until you found her. It's not like the EMT said "You have a concussion. Go find someone to drive you to the hospital," and then turned her loose.

It is not at all unusual for there to be confusion about what happened to a certain horse. There are certain people who have radios and who know these things, and other people are left guessing. If you want to know what happened, you find one of those people who actually knows.

I guess I just don't see that it's the responsibility of the event to rush right out to find you and tell you your rider fell... especially when she's up and walking around. I'm not even sure I'd think it was their responsibility if she was carted off in the ambulance. Their responsibility is to get the rider the medical attention she needs. If that rider has support people there with them, I figure it's the support people's responsibility to figure out where the rider is. It's not the event's responsibility to track you down and let you know.

As for the medical armbands, I've never thought they were particularly useful myself. As Janet said, no EMT is going to take its word as gospel anyway.

I'm sorry you had such a traumatic weekend, but honestly, it sounds to me like you're just lashing out at the event in frustration. Yes, it's frustrating if an event doesn't have a good PA system. Yes, it's frustrating if you get different stories every time you talk to a different volunteer. But if you know how the heirarchy of volunteers works at an event, it's not really very difficult to get to someone who knows what's going on.

And of course, it's the fact that there ARE all those volunteers -- not paid staff -- that keeps our entry fees relatively low.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:52 AM

Pwynn, I hope Christan is ok and I'm sorry you had a disappointing weekend. However, I do think that your condemnation of the event is unduly harsh.

You say <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The problem was the dreadful lack of communication under conditions that could have resulted in real tragedy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not sure that I follow this point. It seems that your not knowing what had happened to Christan was inconvenient and worrying, but not dangerous. So long as the medic knew where she was and was attending to her, the essential communication had taken place. Letting supporters know what is happening is secondary.

As for the armband, is your complaint that no one gave you the armband or the information that was in it? I don't think it is the medic's responsibility to brief the "friendly strangers or business associates" who may come to help the rider. It seems to me the questionable decision was not transporting Christan to the hospital in an ambulence. Once Christan refused that service and/or the medical personel determined it wasn't necessary, I don't think the competition organizers have any responsibility for seeing that she gets further care.

(Another note on medical armbands: they are really of very limited use. No medical responder is going to rely on them for essential information like blood type -- that sort of test would be repeated at the hospital. I'm not sure what information you needed that was on the armband but could not be obtained more reliably by the hospital.)

The sport's responsibility is to have qualified medical personel on hand to respond to an emergency. It isn't to provide support services to all riders -- for example, the organizers are not responsible for arranging transportation home if a competitor is injured and can't drive his/her trailer. It's very kind (and quite common) when organizers or fellow competitors do pitch in in situations like that, but it certainly isn't the responsibility of the sport.

And the quality of care at the hospital is clearly not the responsibility of the sport.

Again, I'm really sorry that it was a bad weekend. But I don't think it is fair to blame the sport or the organizers of this competition that your friends didn't get a good impression. So long as the horse and rider were attended to by the relevant personel in a timely fashion, the sport fulfilled its responsibilities. An announcement that said "Could a groom for Christan please report to Fence X" would have been helpful, but the absense of such an anouncement is not a dereliction of duty by the competition. Clear anouncements are a bonus. They certainly make competitons "classier" and I agree with you that they are an important part of professionalizing the sport. However, they are not one of the essential functions. --Jess

(edited to add -- Oy, posted just after Erin and had essentially the same thing to say. Oh well, I'll let mine stand, too.)

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:56 AM

Christan is fine now, although she thinks she may have broken her nose, too.

And one thing I fogot to emphasize in my rant was that, although I have issues with the organizers, the PEOPLE in eventing are wonderful. Everyone unofficial was very, very helpful. Luckily, there were enough of us to cover caring for the hroses, dealing with the vet and driving her rig back home.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Are you sure you aked the right people in the vet box? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Janet, the "right" people? WHO THE HECK ARE THEY? Do you see what I mean? If a rider just has an uninitiated helper in the box, how the heck is the helper supposed to know "the right person"? Is this sport going to start going the hunter-jumper route and expecting everyone to have a trainer, etc., who knows "the right people"!

*I* was running around trying to find Christan. Another person was in the vet area with all the equipment, wandering around asking where #48/9 (can't remember) was...She says she called out and someone finally said they'd been "looking" for her! Hey, how's this: maybe I should suggest a rule change wherein at x-level, the riders' help wears #s, too? But no, that wouldn't be necessary with effective communication.

And it's not that I'm thinking anyone should announce a rider injury. But heck yes, a FALL!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ...the vet box did have a...more or less DID know <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did know what? And since the horse was injured, too, we in the barn never heard from the person we left in the vet box either since she then became too busy dealing with the horse and the vet.

Again, NONE of this would have happened if the PA system worked and the announcer gave helpful information--like they do at most events. I think it was really that simple: make sure your communications work and, if they don't, compensate for them!

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It is not at all unusual for there to be confusion about what happened to a certain horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotta go teach a class. More in a minute, but this is my point--thinking globally, not locally here.

And, remember, this isn't lashing out (not in my mind): it's a RANT. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Rants ARE rants.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:04 AM

tle

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Janet, the "right" people? WHO THE HECK ARE THEY? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... perhaps someone who has a stethescope, clipboard and radio??? Perhaps "a vet" since there were in fact 2 in the box (one of whichis mandatory IIRC). an official, since there was 1 in the box. Seems this is a good lesson in educating the helpers as much as dealing with communication from the event. Like I said, I was neither an official nor did I have a radio but I knew that #49 had had some kind of incident, was not going to continue and remember hearing something about "nose" and "blood"... and that was inbetween trying to keep track of 4 different thermometers and 2 different scribe people!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Another person was in the vet area with all the equipment, wandering around asking where #48/9 (can't remember) was <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, perhaps more education on the part of the helper is what was needed... especially since its freely admitted she couldn't remember the number. Vet box folks rarely look at names... it's the numbers that are important. If you can't remember your team's number, do you really expect us to know what the hell you're talking about?? get real.

I'm sorry you had a bad weekend. I'm sorry Christian got hurt. But the more you rant, the more I'm starting to side with Jess and Erin that your emotions and frustration are being taken out unfairly on the event and sport.

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:14 AM

I agree with Erin and Jess wholeheartedly.

horsemad!

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:27 AM

Often the announcer is also “control” and has more on their plate than announcing what’s happening on course – ie: ensuring the paramedics are deployed and the appropriate officials are advised, that any necessary on course stops are on the clock and that there is a hold on the course until everything is clear, etc. In addition, for all the events that I control and announce, I do not announce when there has been a fall and skip on instead to thanking sponsors and volunteers, pointing people to the concessions, etc. This is what I have been requested to do by the organizers I have worked for. It sounds to me like your rider got the attention she needed but that it was frustrating for you trying to find out what happened to her. Usually ask anyone who looks official – anyone with a radio or a clipboard – and they’ll do their best to help.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:44 AM

If you haven't been around the block at a few dozen events, I'm sure it all LOOKS very confusing and unorganized. An event, especially a three-day, requires a virtual army of volunteers. We've all had our run-ins with clueless volunteers, I'm sure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But, again, they are VOLUNTEERS and because they are volunteers, ours is one of the cheaper sports to participate in.

As I said in my original post, and as TLE and Jess have said, it usually isn't all that hard to figure out what's going on if you know who to talk to. A person with a clipboard or a radio is usually a safe bet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Believe me, I've *covered* really BIG events where I got frustrated as all hell because I kept getting different answers on things and had to run around tracking down all sorts of people. Yes, it happens, especially when it's NOT Rolex or something like that. But you know what? It's just not that big of a deal.

I think Jess hit the nail on the head:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I'm not sure that I follow this point. It seems that your not knowing what had happened to Christan was inconvenient and worrying, but not dangerous. So long as the medic knew where she was and was attending to her, the essential communication had taken place. Letting supporters know what is happening is secondary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I'm sorry the rider fell and was hurt, and that you and the rest of her supporters spent some time wondering what had happened. And certainly, fill out the event evaluation form and let them know (NICELY) that it was difficult to hear the PA in the vet box or back at the barn or wherever.

But, honestly, while you may think that the event could have done some things to make your life easier, I certainly don't think they are in any way at FAULT for not doing those things.

Again, I think it's the support people's job to track down the rider. Not the event staff's job to track down the support people. It's like when you're talking with someone who's on a cell phone and the other person drops the call. I figure it's up to THEM to call ME back... if BOTH of us are trying to call the other, all we'll get are voicemail and busy signals. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SBH

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:46 AM

I understand your frustration regarding the confusion during the event but like others have said it is not the organizers job to educate the riders help. I have been a groom at several 3-days and the vet box can be chaotic, at best, if you don't know what is going on. When I am in the vet box waiting for my rider, I position myself near someone with a radio so I can follow what is going on. This is not always possible, I realize but if my rider is not in sight when she is expected, I search out someone with a radio and ask what is the status of rider so and so. As a groom I feel it is my responsibility to know where my rider and horse are at all times. I may not know the exact fence she is at but I do know her expected times at certain fences and at the vet box and if she is not there, you can bet your life I'm asking around and listening to any radio I can find. I am sorry that your weekend didn't turn out as expected and I'm glad that your rider will be okay, but these things do happen at 3-days and its your job to be prepared for the unexpected.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Janet, the "right" people? WHO THE HECK ARE THEY? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In this context, "the right people" is "someone with a radio".

Any one of the vets probably could have answered "who has a radio?"

But in this case, I would have gone straight to the finish line timers. They USUALLY have a little bit of free time btween horses completing, so they can talk to you (unlike the vets in the vet box, who are busy continuously). And that are generally (after the EMTs themselves) the first ones to be informed that "horse X isn't going to be coming to the finish, so you can stop that stopwatch." And if they don't happen to remember WHY horse X isn't going to be finishing, they are usually in a good position to send out a radio request for "what is the status of (or "where is") rider X, we have a friend/groom/owner asking?"

annikak

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:17 AM

I am really sorry that Christan was hurt and fell at the event. So hard to have worked that hard, and then to have it end badly- both for you and her. My sympathies to all involved....

I was at the event and showing. there was a lot of announcing going on- Stadium, dressage AND xc were all going on at the same point in time. Sunday, there were 2 rings being announced at the same time for Stadium.

Yes, it can be confusing- and yes, it is really scary! I remember one event where tle was following me, and i fell at a fence (horse fell too...) and I stood up as quickly as I could to make sure they said nothing so she did not know that I had fallen. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif My SO was wondering where I was...and yes, there were moments of confusion. But, as a whole, the things that were done to ensure MY safety, as well as my horses, were done. He was kinda worked up...why didn't someone tell me? type thing, so I can understand where you are coming from.

I was there when a horse fell at the road, as well as when a NOV rider fell. Both times, the medics were there ASAP, and the vet drove up just as hhfarm was leading the horse back to the barn. The rider ending up being okay- but scary, for sure. I heard them annoounce a couple of times for poople to meet at the steeplechase barn- so I think that there was good communication for the most part.

I really hope that you can get to a point where you can see how the system works. It may have its faults, but everyone has the best interests of the riders and horses at heart. Of that I am sure. I am sorry that you had those horrid moments. I *hate* those- as a mom and a spouse of one that rides. When I fall, I know what is happening- when they fall, I am much more of a wreak! Never ever feel that you cannot ask anyone anything- everyone seems to want to help where ever they can. That is why I love eventing.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:23 AM

I just realized you were in the barn, not the vet box as I had inferred from your first post.

In that case "the right people" would be the secretary (assuming the secretary's office is close to the barn, it usually is).

I hate to say this, but if you had been more of a "hands on owner", and/or had done some volunteering at events, you probably would have found the information you needed much more quickly.

It is not so much a question of "who you know", as "understanding how the system works".

LisaB

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:24 AM

Okay, my first time at the vet box. I was at CDCTA and never even witnessed one.
So, if I had a question, I found an official of some kind. They didn't seem hard to find. They announced the # and where they were, including coming off steeplechase to head into C.
The announcer did announce falls but not all. Whenever a friend was supposed to be finishing a course, whatever level, and didn't, I found an official and asked. Maybe they were hard to identify? An orange flak jacket might be in order.
It was wet, wasn't it? Could that have playing into the wiring to the speakers? Bring out the duct tape then!
What concerns me the most is that Christan had a fall. A fall that gave her some memory loss. And from the post, YOU pywnn, had to take her to the hospital. WTF? Why didn't the EMT's take her away? Why didn't they give her the tests on how badly she fell? Sorry, but this really scares me. She obviously clocked her head. That being done, she should have been immediately sent to the hospital.
And the EMT's should be very aware of how freaky horse falls are. Since my barn does x-c schooling and we are next door to the rescue squad, they know what a horse fall entails. But it's up to us(well, the BO really) to let the EMT's know about horse falls. Many have already heard and know what to do but I would think the same applies to events.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:

Janet, the "right" people? WHO THE HECK ARE THEY? Do you see what I mean? If a rider just has an uninitiated helper in the box, how the heck is the helper supposed to know "the right person"? Is this sport going to start going the hunter-jumper route and expecting everyone to have a trainer, etc., who knows "the right people"! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wanted to make a comment on this point.

It seems to me that your biggest issue is that "someone should have told me" this or that -- either that your rider had fallen, or that you could have asked someone with a radio what happened, or whatever.

Events aren't like H/J shows. (And I know you know this, pwynn, but I'm just making the point.) If you're two minutes late for your dressage test, you're eliminated. If you want to jump another few warm-up jumps, too bad, if it's your time to go.

I guess I'm getting the impression that you wanted your hand held throughout this process. That you wanted someone to tell you WHO in the vet box would be the right person to ask if you had questions, you wanted someone to scurry over to tell you rider had a fall, you wanted that someone to take you directly to her, and you wanted someone to tell the MDs at the hospital that she had a medical armband and that such-and-such information was on it.

While I'm sure all that would have been *nice*, is there really any reason you couldn't have figured these things out yourself? You probably could have asked any spectator or any other support people who were waiting around, and they could have pointed out to you what people on this thread have said -- that the timers would know if the horse had finished or not, that someone with a radio could probably find out where the rider was.

It just bothers me to see this called a "tragedy of errors" and for you to say you were "appalled" by the organization... most of the people posting on this thread have given you any number of suggestions for how you could have handled the situation, and yes, you have to have been to a few events to know these things. But, really, why is any of this the fault of the organizers?

To me, *your* position smacks more of hunter-show-hand-holding syndrome than what the eventers on this thread have been saying. As Janet said, it's just a matter of knowing how the system works. If you *don't* know, there's nothing wrong with that... but you have to educate yourself, rather than rant when you don't understand how you should have handled something.

Painted Wings

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:37 AM

One thing I learned this weekend was that everyone should have a radio, just to listen. I was at Hill n Hound and the PA went out in the barn we were in so we couldn't tell what was going on. If I'd had a radio I would have been able to hear. Also if you have a radio you can hear the jump judges at almost every fence. I cary a radio while foxhunting and wish I'd had it in the trailer last weekend as it would really have come in handy when the PA went out.

I really don't think announcers should announce falls or at least the retributions of it. I outride regularly at Rolex and we are specifically told not to talk to the press or make comments on what happened at a fence to anyone. There are people who's job it is to take care of press releases, etc. and you don't want 50 stories floating around as to what happened and you certainly don't want speculation.

Since the Announcer is generally not in a position to know the actual condition of the rider or horse and what specifically happened, it is best to keep it to a minimum to avoid potentially false statements.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:58 AM

OK, I'm back...sorry to stop midstream.

I ended before by saying "rant" and indicating "thing globally"...what I meant was this:

I LOVE this sport. I hate what is happening to it and COULD happen to it, as DE has disucssed recently, and I actually see what occurred to us this weekend as part of the problem. I'm not denying individual faults here, but I am pointing a finger as well...but maybe not at whom you think, in a global sense.

Folks, you are giving me excuses when "we" should be thinking about solutions that help the sport overall (globally). Y'see, the problem is that most of us (and I'm including myself here) tend to think only about our enjoyment of the sport, i.e. only from that perspective. And there's nothing wrong with that, in a way...but there is another way to look at it, IF you choose to.

It's kinda like the other side of the fence I was on when it came to AEC and also perhaps Mark Phillips, too: the sport is growing and changing. More and more people are entering the sport and bringing different levels of knowledge and involvement in the sport...and "the sport" has to take that into account, but is "slow" in doing so.

That, too, is only natural, but not an excuse. Changes HAVE been made in how you can qualify for upper level competition--those changes were examples of the broader thinking I'm referring to with the "global" concept.

IMO, you are ALL (so sayeth she daringly) dead, dead wrong in excusing the situation we experienced because your reasoning, while perfectly sound and valid, shrugs off an opportunity to improve the sport FOR EVERYONE: To "grow" the sport in healthy, professional ways.

My rant really reflects my "shock" that the sport isn't consistently "there" yet in comparison to other sports and endeavors--or maybe just that this particular event wasn't "there" in comparison to other events I've attended (maybe it's just that simple?). Because I'd never had this problem before, I always assumed that it WAS neatly taken care of. I do not think that anyone who cares about the sport, the big picture, can possibly be happy with a statement like the one that seemed to condone organizers not knowing where a particular competing horse or rider was after a fall or other in-competition incident. Yes, it may be the current reality, but does that make it acceptable and therefore in need of no improvement, no concern, no future planning or contingencies, no growth in policy or protocol?

Right now, in hunter-jumper land, there are movements afoot to get more stringent on how shows (and officials) qualify for various ratings and responsibilities. "Licensing" is being discussed, etc., etc. Here in eventing land, "grading" events and the like has also been discussed, I think.

But I think perhaps Hunter-jumpers are actually a bit ahead of the ball here: THEY are starting to go over, point-by-point what it takes to put on a safe, sound, attractive event. They are starting to consider serious, professional requirements in terms of facilities, equipment, human resources, etc. (Yeah, I appreciate volunteers, but y'know, as a sport grows, so, too, do the formal responsibilities, litigious a society as we are, alas.) Again, this isn't for ALL competitions. But can anyone not see that at SOME level, there does need to be consistency in offerings? Some "requirements" for organizers (actually, there probably already ARE such requirements).

Let me be specific: if MOST events manage to have an announcer (or two!) who track riders as they go along the course, then maybe ALL events should (at x-level, that is--not necessarily at "all" levels). Maybe...just a thought. Given the nature of the sport, ALL events certainly should have working communication devices in the stabling area. And here's an idea: perhaps color could be used on officials in such a way that one can see, even from a distance where the official (like vets, etc.) is (who says the vet is the only one with a stethoscope on, anyway?)...just a thought. And maybe emergency expectations (for parents, spectators, etc.) can actually be posted here and there (who would that hurt, after all--i.e. "what to do in an emergency," etc.). AGaink, just a thought. Seen it elsewhere, for example. (Still thinking about weekend warriors, too, here.) One could almost imagine a "safety committee" brainstorming ALL of these things--which is perhaps how the armbands came about.

Improvements, people, not excusing things because they're the status quo. Growing up as a sport. (Surely, events can't offer, say, certain upper level divisions, for example, if they don't meet certain criteria, right? Well, what I'm saying is, maybe those criteria need to be reviewed and/or made more stringent? Maybe, I don't know since I don't know what is already in place.)

The fact is, many of you see this as "that's just the way things are." Me (and my friends) saw it as "that's not how it is in motorcross, in the marathon, in endurance riding..." And also "wow, this is a lot more dangerous than baseball or cross country running or crew, so how come those sports do this or that (to inform, guide or educate during a happening), but this one doesn't?

See my point here? OTHER sports accomodate the nature of the sport, of the spectators, of the riders and the owners...or they try. Yeah, they POST information in places where those who need to see it, can see it (and they don't think that the only "they" they should think about are those directly participating either). They use a variety of communicate devices (like "color coding" apparel, etc.). Fact is, there's tons of things that can be done. Sure, it's tough with volunteers...but maybe a new level of organization needs to be expected for, say, the "starred" competitions. I mean, if jump crews are so awful, egad, that sure isn't very reassuring to the horse's owner. I sure as heck hope tye aren't awful at BAdminton and Burghley or Rolex...or Fair Hill? So, when do we expect them to be not awful, anyway? NEVER?

Not a smart way to "evolve" a sport.

I'm even a little appalled that so many of you here frequently (in many critical threads) prefer to "circle the wagons" rather than see how criticism can lead to improvement and growth. That attitude is perhaps part of the problem.

Maybe, as we reconsider the nature of OUR sport (a la Denny Emerson's comments) we should look at the big picture involving how competitors, spectators, owners, sponsors and officials all "relate" to each other and their environment (the global thing) here, too. For example, IF more amateurs and/or "weekend warriors" ARE becoming involved in the sport...then, SURELY, folks, you can see where I'm going here...surely, you can see that merely coughing up the statement that "it's not the organizer's job to educate..." just won't fly.

It ISN'T the organizers, but it IS IS IS IS IS the ORGANIZATION'S (a la "the sport's"). This is also something hunter-jumper land is starting to recognize that perhaps eventing land is a bit slow to. There is indeed a responsibility to educate, whether it involves the damaging effects of stacking NSAIDS or something procedural like vet boxes and rider fall protocols. It's downright stupid for a sport that wants to maintain a healthy, positive image to pass this responsibility off on those who may not be capable of handling it. (Again, the amateur thing--or even the inexperienced professional, frankly).

Oh, you say or imply without reading all that carefully what is actually being stated: you're either not capable or don't want to be responsible for being capable? Well then just shut up and take it or LEAVE.

Such shortsightedness is also, frankly, incredibly stupid. "Sink or swim" is NOT a valid argument if you truly care about the development and support of your sport--no matter how dominant that attitude may be in some circles.

Flame away.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Me (and my friends) saw it as "that's not how it is in motorcross, in the marathon, in endurance riding..." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I can't speak for motocross, but I certainly CAN speak for motorcycle road racing (Having been pit crew, volunteer (cornerworker) and racer starting 1964).

That IS how it is in roadracing. If you want to find out "what happend to" your rider, HAVE A RADIO OR SCANNER, or find someone who does.

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:17 AM

I find it to be a bit of a leap to take your experience (which I think could have been vastly improved by common sense and basic education/insight) and translate it into an argument for evolving the nature of the sport. Truly, I think you are blowing this way out of proportion.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:28 AM

Pwynn, I think that there are a couple of issues here. First, we have to decide if we WANT the sport to grow. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that bigger is better -- but even if we accept the notion that we want to attract more spectators, owners, sponsors, participants, and money, I do not agree with many of your ideas about how to do so.

Primarily, I don't agree that competitions are the place to teach new participants how the sport works. If we want to attract new blood (and, let's face it, money) to the sport, then we need to provide enough information that people can follow the competition, become excited about the sport, and get an idea of how to take the next step towards getting involved. But the specific information that you wanted last weekend isn't the type of information that would be useful in spreading the sport. It's the type of information that would be useful to someone who wants to be an insider but doesn't yet know the ropes.

I can respond to your specifics: it is NOT essential for spectators or outsiders to be able to identify officials. It is disruptive for people not directly involved in the competition to interact with the officials. Participants are responsible for knowing who the officials are -- and for informing their support crews when appropriate. It is dangerous to encourage dependency in this sport, especially at the CCI level. Riders MUST be prepared and prepare their own crew. It's a very short step from saying that officials should be color-coded so that novice grooms can spot them to saying that officials should provide instruction to novice grooms in the 10 minute box, or that other accomodations that shift the responsibility from the rider to the organizers should be made.

I don't think it's a good idea to dumb down the sport to make it more accessible to weekend warriors. I think that's an invitation to more, and more serious, accidents. Having a fairly high knowledge threshold keeps people who aren't ready to particpate from playing, and if that's seen as making the sport inaccessible, so be it. I don't think that CCIs should be accessible to everyone.

The proper place to DEVELOP new participants -- riders, owners, and grooms -- is at home, and through hands on mentoring and instruction at shows. I'm not advocating sink or swim. I'm advocating swimming lessons before you try the ocean. Someone -- the rider or trainer -- should teach the novice groom the ropes, first at smaller horse trials and then by providing a "job shadowing" experience at a three day before turning the groom lose on her own. The organizers should NOT be the ones expected to provide such instruction.

I think there are lots of ways to make our sport more accessible and mainstream. But your complaints and suggestions don't increase the marketability of the sport to new participants. Rather, they pertain to the convayance of very specific information (what the groom should do in case of an accident on XC).

I also agree that we "should look at the big picture involving how competitors, spectators, owners, sponsors and officials all "relate" to each other and their environment." But I think that those interactions need to occur at home, not at the show. The competition is not the classroom. The organizers are not the teachers. If you want to participate, you have to do the homework, and that is the way it should be, to keep things safe.

As a sidenote, announcing the specifics of falls and injuries would NOT help the sport grow. It would turn off spectators and newbies. It would have helped YOU this weekend, but would not help the sport.

Changes in the sport should focus on making competitions more understandable and interesting to specators. But training participants just should not happen at shows. Can the sport's organizing body play a role in training participants (riders, trainers, sponsors, and others)? YES. Through clinics -- not just mounted -- certification, the annual meeting, and new forums that haven't yet been conceived of.

I'm not "excusing things because they're the status quo." I'm explaining how things work. I know because I took the time to learn. And I'm defending the notion that participation in this sport requires that investment in an education. I don't think our sport is perfect. I think there is a lot we can do to help it expand and become more mainstream, if that is what we want. But I do think that participants can't be developed at competitions. --Jess

tle

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:32 AM

Oh this is going to be long, I'm afraid...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
OK, I'm back...sorry to stop midstream.

I ended before by saying "rant" and indicating "thing globally"...what I meant was this: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Going to cut my quote simply to save time and space. However, had you started your initial RANT with some CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM like you have in this post, perhaps you wouldn't have gotten the "circle the wagons" type of attitude in return. Ranting, blaming and pointing fingers is never useful or productive and is totally different from the criticism you seem to want us to take to heart.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>IMO, you are ALL (so sayeth she daringly) dead, dead wrong in excusing the situation we experienced because your reasoning, while perfectly sound and valid, shrugs off an opportunity to improve the sport FOR EVERYONE: To "grow" the sport in healthy, professional ways. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, we're not. Because I don't see one person on this thread putting their proverbial fingers in their ears and saying "I can't hear you!!". What I see, and what I responded to, was an attack... an attack on teh sport, on the organizER of this event because you didn't have the information at your fingertips. I don't think you'd have anyone disagreeing that we all need to always be looking for ways to improve, etc. But it's not just the job of the sport to improve... but the job of the rider and owner. Just like there is no excuse for ignorance of the rules, there is no excuse (IMHO) for lack of personal responsibility. If you need to know something, you freakin' find out!! eventers or H/J or DQs... we all know what a damn secretary's office is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>My rant really reflects my "shock" that the sport isn't consistently "there" yet in comparison to other sports and endeavors--or maybe just that this particular event wasn't "there" in comparison to other events I've attended (maybe it's just that simple?). Because I'd never had this problem before, I always assumed that it WAS neatly taken care of. I do not think that anyone who cares about the sport, the big picture, can possibly be happy with a statement like the one that seemed to condone organizers not knowing where a particular competing horse or rider was after a fall or other in-competition incident. Yes, it may be the current reality, but does that make it acceptable and therefore in need of no improvement, no concern, no future planning or contingencies, no growth in policy or protocol? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then your rant was very poorly worded.

There IS a protocol in place to take care of fallen riders and fallen horses. However, as others have said, the goal of that protocol is to see to the riders and horses! Not to hunt down any and all possible support personnel! Aside from registering every possible person is the office supposed to know that rider X has 3 poeple with them (somewhere on the 1000 acres of land and museums) while rider Y is here alone. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif good grief you're asking for the impossible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Maybe...just a thought. Given the nature of the sport, ALL events certainly should have working communication devices in the stabling area. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pertinent communications (the kind that are not only necessary but mandatory!) consists of a few items -- communication with area stewards, communication with judges/td and communication with safety personnel (vet and EMTs). Communication via the niceties of a PA system to see how horse X is going XC or that Division Y is starting SJ is just that -- a NICETY!! Sure, most events have them, but they are NOT... repeat NOT essential/mandatory items! Geez... this isn't the H/J land where everything is spelled out. I happen to like the self-sufficientness of events. Yes, I grumble when I'm not sure what division they're on for SJ, but I take my 2 little legs and go find out!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And here's an idea: perhaps color could be used on officials in such a way that one can see, even from a distance where the official (like vets, etc.) is (who says the vet is the only one with a stethoscope on, anyway?)...just a thought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, that's not a horrible thought at all. Too bad it's buried in a post of such negativity. Second, never said the vet would be the only one with a stethescope but I'd say 95% of the time if you ask a person in the vet box with a stethescope for the vet, they'll know where to find one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Maybe, I don't know since I don't know what is already in place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif This is a peeve of mine... why are you criticising something that you ADMIT you don't have a clue what is already there and working??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The fact is, many of you see this as "that's just the way things are." Me (and my friends) saw it as "that's not how it is in motorcross, in the marathon, in endurance riding..." And also "wow, this is a lot more dangerous than baseball or cross country running or crew, so how come those sports do this or that (to inform, guide or educate during a happening), but this one doesn't? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sport does try to educate, but like teachers, you can't put all the responsibility for education on them. The student has responsibility to seek out and learn themselves. And in your personal situation, the RIDER has to share the responsibility to education their own support personnel. I know when I bring people to an event with me, I try to explain as much about the sport as possible. I certainly don't bring a newbie with me, turn them loose and then blame the association/sport when they don't understand! We are all embassadors for our sport... it is our responsibility to teach others (yes, I'm putting some of your rant blame on Christian). And I would hope that those interested in the sport would do mroe than just sit there and hope someone explains things to them... step up and ask for heaven's sake! We have all these threads on COTH about how nice eventers are... we certainly won't bite your head off for asking a damn question!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>See my point here? OTHER sports accomodate the nature of the sport, of the spectators, of the riders and the owners...or they try. Yeah, they POST information in places where those who need to see it, can see it (and they don't think that the only "they" they should think about are those directly participating either).[quote]

I think you have some good ideas, but I also think you're taking a personally frustrating situation and trying to find someone to blame. Information IS there. People ARE aroudn that will answer questions or give guidance.

[quote]I'm even a little appalled that so many of you here frequently (in many critical threads) prefer to "circle the wagons" rather than see how criticism can lead to improvement and growth. That attitude is perhaps part of the problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "part of the problem" that is so apparant here is that you are frustrated and came in blowing fire and brimstone trying to find someone to blame. Why the "circle the wagons"? Because of that blame. Had you come in, as I said before, with something a little more level headed and offered teh possible suggestions that you gave in this post, I don't think this thread would have headed into the defensiveness taht you have encountered. The fact that eventers stick up for one another and DO try to educate (you see defensiveness, I see suggestions) is another reason I love this sport and the people in it, thankyouverymuch.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:40 AM

Again, Janet, just because that's reality, that doesn't mean it is how it "should" be.

What the heck is wrong with developing sound protocols for dealing with exingencies which everyone KNOWS occur and occur often?

It's like the maps in hotels showing where to go in the event of a fire. Or the "how to handle a choke" posters that used to be everywhere.

Riders fall. They fall in novice, they fall in one-stars, they fall at Rolex.

Some riders travel alone, some have coaches, some have a slew of grooms, some have only ol' grandma. Every event has stabling areas and other high traffic areas. What, for heavens sake, would be so wrong about posting useful protocols in those locations?

And what about the issue of the announcer's duties? Why NOT examine that issue and consider making them more consistent and maybe more spectator/owner/sponsor friendly? Why not THINK about it, at least--to improve the sport?

How about this? Imagine what the "next level" for eventing might be (in terms of popularity: sponsorship, entries, etc.). Now think about what accomodations might need to be in place to make that "next level" workable. In Europe (and maybe here), a lot of upper level horses are syndicated, owned by groups of people.

Are you really saying it'll be OK to have those groups of people wandering around clueless? Do you REALLY expect that novice to "know" everything? Or how about that first-time one-star rider? When, exactly, do you expect this knowledge to accrue?

It's not hand-holding, Erin. It's facing reality and dealing with it effectively. I know, as a teacher, that I can't MAKE my students do their homework any more than I can make them intelligent. Nor can I open up their brains to discover if the experience they had actually taught them what they needed to know. So I use handouts, I use videos, I put up posters, I distribute checklists...I do what it takes to INSURE that certain things are consistently being relayed and utilized. It's my responsibility because that's what I'm paid to do.

I argue that maybe we should start thinking about what our membership dollars and entry fees are paying for in the same way (and, admittedly, I may be thinking along these lines more thsee days because of my involvement with a certain element of protest in hunter-jumper land).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Well then your rant was very poorly worded. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Such is generally the nature of rants. I'll not apologize for blowing off a bit of steam.

Main Entry: 1rant
Pronunciation: 'rant
Function: verb
Etymology: obsolete Dutch ranten, randen
intransitive senses
1 : to talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner
2 : to scold vehemently
transitive senses : to utter in a bombastic declamatory fashion

SBH

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:41 AM

Very well said JAGold and TLE

RacetrackReject

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:41 AM

I have to agree with what Erin posted above.

If you want my take on the situation, and you didn't ask, but you did say flame away, so here goes.

YOU were embarrassed because you had friends, clients, and potential sponsors at the show to watch your horse and rider. When things went wrong, YOU looked incompetent because YOU were not notified of what was happening, and YOU did not know who you to ask. That's not an event problem, that's YOUR problem. If I had been made to look inept in front of my peers I may be looking for someone to blame as well.

Yes, you can tell me I'm wrong and don't know anything blah blah blah, but that's the way you are coming off in your posts.

First you were blaming the organizers and the hospital nurses and now you're blaming the whole of the sport and it's competitors by accusing them of being complacent (sp). All because you did not know what was going on with your rider and horse and did not know who to ask about it.

And yes, by all means, let's rush to be like Hunter/Jumper world, shall we? First of all, they ride in a ring where God and everyone can see every little thing they do. H/J riders are not cruising in and out of wooded areas, up and down hills, and in and out of the line of sight. It's going to take a few minutes to get help and information sent out if someone has problems. Even then, information is sent out to people who can actually help- medics, vets, and officials. At the 3-days I have been to, officials had either badges, armbands, or ribbons to signify that they were, in fact, officials. If not, as everyone else suggested, a radio is usually a good indicator of someone who might know something, or be able to find out something.

There is a "Safety Committee" that inspects venues before they can receive status, and reviews studies and reports on how to make the sport safer. I'm not really sure that owner notification of everything is on their list though. I mean what are you proposing? Radios for every rider, owner, trainer? How much would that raise entry fees? And while we're at it, how about those neat little "i've fallen and I can't get up" devices for the riders to carry which would notify the owners? You also don't want volunteers? What are you suggesting? A paid staff at events? There would be no more events if that were to happen. I believe even H/J shows have volunteers (shock!).

Sorry, some of my post disappeared and I don't have the energy now to retype it.

I did want to comment on your suggestion to post protocols of what would happen in a fall. In order to do this, there would have to be a 3-ring binder with about 500 pages in it because fall situations can vary so much that each has to be taken on a case by case basis. It would have to be done on a fence by fence, level by level basis due to the various locations of fences. Then you would have to cover, fall of horse, fall of rider, fall of both, fall of rider with horse running back to stables, fall of rider with horse continuing on course, fall of etc....

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:54 AM

[Oh, might be valuable to add:

Main Entry: bom·bast
Pronunciation: 'bäm-"bast
: pretentious inflated speech or writing]

...but I'm also going to continue along more serious lines in this discussion...

You're right, in a way, RacetrackReject. I WAS, personally, aghast that this one time I manage to get all these people together, it is at an event where they couldn't tell what the frig was happening...even if Christan HADN'T fallen, I clearly choose THE WRONG EVENT to take people to to try to get them more involved in the sport.

Absolutely I'm pissed for that reason. Absolutely I'm coming at this from that perspective.

I took them to the Kentucky Horse Park to watch a CCI* and because this event did NOT do the very things I'd come to expect because I'd experienced them consistently at OTHER events, it was a bust.

I wrote my dissertation on the new world information order, a long-dead issue now but one which once introduced the phrase "the frustrations of rising expectations" to the world.

Bears some consideration, methinks.

tle

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
What the heck is wrong with developing sound protocols for dealing with exingencies which everyone KNOWS occur and occur often? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And those ARE in place, ARE used and ARE known by the people who HAVE to know -- the organizer, the announcer (usually), the controller, the safety coordinator, the EMTs and the vet. You said earlier you didn't know if these exist... THEY DO!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And what about the issue of the announcer's duties? Why NOT examine that issue and consider making them more consistent and maybe more spectator/owner/sponsor friendly? Why not THINK about it, at least--to improve the sport? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would you suggest? Some events have volunteer announcers... some of paid announcer... some have HIGHLY paid announcers. Some just announce X phase. Some announce all phases. Some announce and act as control. It's the nature of the sport because events operate on different levels within the sport... from shoestring budget to sponsors out the whazzu. I guess I don't get what suggestions you might be thinking of here or why it might be necessary at some of the "backyard" events. Heck, I know one event that I announce at that doesn't want spectators and has told me so... because of the problems you in this thread have exhibited. For the amount of money she makes on the event, is it worth it to hear of a spectator b#tching and moaning because despite the phenominal way the injured rider was attended to, that spectator wasn't "in teh loop". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I certainly wouldn't want to deal with that either!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Are you really saying it'll be OK to have those groups of people wandering around clueless? Do you REALLY expect that novice to "know" everything? Or how about that first-time one-star rider? When, exactly, do you expect this knowledge to accrue? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Go back and read Jess's most recent post. she said it better than I could. (a show is not the place for learning but rather at home, in clinics, via "job shadowing", etc.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It's not hand-holding, Erin. It's facing reality and dealing with it effectively. I know, as a teacher, that I can't MAKE my students do their homework any more than I can make them intelligent. Nor can I open up their brains to discover if the experience they had actually taught them what they needed to know. So I use handouts, I use videos, I put up posters, I distribute checklists...I do what it takes to INSURE that certain things are consistently being relayed and utilized. It's my responsibility because that's what I'm paid to do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But when all is said and done, you can do everything possible but the STUDENT still has to want to learn, seek out the knowledge AND LEARN! It's up to them in the end. You can do everything, but if a student doesn't want to learn, there's nothing you can do. As a teacher, I woudl think you'd understand that. Yes, teh sport has an obligation for education... but the participant (by being an owner, you are a participant) has EQUAL if not more reponsiblity to learn... especially before touting off about things they don't even know.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Do you REALLY expect that novice to "know" everything? Or how about that first-time one-star rider? When, exactly, do you expect this knowledge to accrue? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. I do. It is the responsibility of the novice to spectate, volunteer, take lessons, or hook up with someone knowledgeble. Until the novice knows how a show works, he/she shouldn't be there alone, and the people with that novice, not the organizers, are the ones who should do the teaching.

And the statement is even more true for the first time CCI-* rider. A one star is a serious competition with lots of rules. You get eliminated for not knowing them -- for missing a flag, for not knowing that you can't speak to your ground crew unless you are in the assistance area, for not using spurs in dressage. That's part of the game. To be able to play the game, you have to learn before the competition. Both the rules of the show and how to handle emergencies that may arise.

I expect this information to acure during the process it takes to get qualified for a one star. I expect riders who compete at that level to work with a professonal who teaches his students these things. I expect riders to have groomed or at least spectated at a one star before attempting one themselves. Look, every rider doing a one star has done at least eight USEA events (4 at training, 4 at prelim) and probably more. I expect them to have learned the basics before their very first competition, and to keep learning as they prepare for a one star. There are many opportunities, like the training three days, to learn. I expect riders to take responsibility for learning before they show up to compete.

As for emergency protocol, the issue is getting the information to the people who need to know. In this case, you didn't need to know. Christan wasn't counting on you to take care of her in an emergency -- as you stated yourself, you rarely come to the competitions and you don't know "her allergies, her parents' contact information, her medical coverage, her past injuries." It was very nice of you to step in and take her to the hospital. But you weren't a designated first responder or a trainer or parent. If Christan was counting on you to be the person responsible in an emergency, then she should have given you the relevant information. And if you didn't feel like you had enough information to help, then perhaps you should have let someone who did have more information take care of the situation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>What the heck is wrong with developing sound protocols for dealing with exingencies which everyone KNOWS occur and occur often?

[snip]

Some riders travel alone, some have coaches, some have a slew of grooms, some have only ol' grandma. Every event has stabling areas and other high traffic areas. What, for heavens sake, would be so wrong about posting useful protocols in those locations? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no standard protocol. What happens when the horse and rider are released from the immediate care of first responders and medical personel is up to individual riders. In advance, they should let the people from whom they envision wanting help what to do or where to go if there is an accident. Organizers cannot be expected to anticipate the preferences or individual circumstances of all competitiors.

For example, I used to show a mare who was quite difficult to handle. If I got hurt, the only other person who could comfortably handle her was the other working student at our barn. But a standard protocol might have suggested that someone from our barn be asked to fetch the horse. It was my responsibility to make sure that the other working student knew that if I was unable to deal with Miss Mare, I needed her to handle things. And then it became her responsibility to pay attention to where I was on course and be available in case she was needed. --Jess

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Again, Janet, just because that's reality, that doesn't mean it is how it "should" be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But YOU didn't say "the way it should be" in motomud (showing my biases, sorry), etc., you said "the way it IS". And I strongly suspect you are mis- informed as to "the way it IS" in motomud.

In all these sports there are two quite different communications networks- the one required to RUN the competition (officials, volunteers, etc.), and the one to entertain/inform the spectators. The particiapant's support crew are expected to know how to tap into the competition network (by having a scanner, or knowing to "ask someone with a radio") without being PART of that network.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:06 AM

Only a little bit facetious-

Maybe, just as we REQUIRE riders to sucessfully complete a certain number of training events before they move up to Prelim, and so on, we should REQUIRE a rider's support team to qualify by volunteering at a certain number of horse trials and/or CIC before they are allowed to be granted stable passes at a CCI.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> What the heck is wrong with developing sound protocols for dealing with exingencies which everyone KNOWS occur and occur often? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There IS a sound protocol. Just because it isn't spelled out for you in a set of instructions doesn't mean it isn't a sound protocol.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:09 AM

Janet -- every rider I've groomed for at a three day has quizzed me on my "credentials" before adding me to the stable access list! And when we take a newbie, we make sure that there are experienced people around to teach and oversee.

I know you are joking. I don't think organizers should set up requirements for grooms, but I do think that it is in the rider's own interest to make sure that her support crew knows the ropes. --Jess

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Are you really saying it'll be OK to have those groups of people wandering around clueless? Do you REALLY expect that novice to "know" everything? Or how about that first-time one-star rider? When, exactly, do you expect this knowledge to accrue? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No we expect them to compete at the lower levels, work with someone who "knows the ropes" AND VOLUNTEER before they move up to a CCI*

KellyS

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:10 AM

Ditto on what Erin, TLE, JAGold, RTR, & Janet have said! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

My parents accompanied me to the AECs in September. Neither of them are horse people and they have very little experience with the sport of eventing. However, by the end of the week, they had a crash course in the rules and regulations of the sport! Why? Because as my "grooms," they needed to know what to do when things went right AND when things went wrong. This wasn't the organizers or USEA's responsibility - as a competitor, it was my responsibility to make sure that my support group was adequately educated.

They knew who the officials were and who to contact if they had a question or God forbid, something happened and they didn't know what happened to me. I made sure they could handle the horse to the point where they could untack and halter him, get him back to his stall and safely fed and watered if I couldn't do it. My mom knew the exact location of the first aid kit, spare shoes, spare tack, and anything else vaguely important.

I do think that for someone to admit that they are have not had much "hands-on" experience with eventing and then to criticize an event so harshly would cause any group of self-respecting eventers to "circle the wagons"! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

purplepants

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:12 AM

kinda getting in late here but just something for clarification b/c I get sick of people saying we have to do everything the way people "in Europe" do it 'cause they always do it better. SOrry to say but the recognized events there that I have been to (about ten a couple seasons ago) were very NOT spectator friendly. They are not even amateur friendly. They completely cater to the professionals which dominate the majority of recognized horse shows. They are of the opinion that if you can't figure it out yourself you shouldn't be in recognized trials, thats what unrecognized events and pony club are for. Not that things still can't get better here but maybe they do a pretty good job for what they have to work with... just a thought.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:15 AM

Jess,
Exactly the point I was trying to make.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:23 AM

But there are, Jess.

Protocols ARE developed for many, many complex exingencies and some take very little effort but can make a HUGE difference in the impressions that are created.

I tend to sound like a broken record, sometimes, but oh well: it's not rocket science, folks...and yet, y'know what? Posted protocols ARE quite common in rocket science (and other seemingly complex and variable areas)!

I think some of you are inconsistent in your arguments (as I'm sure I am too, of course!). You talk about first-timers, you talk about supporting weekend warrior/adult amateurs, you talk about bad riders on great horses, you talk about Christopher Reeves riding beyond his ability level...but you don't transfer or extrapolate those issues into other areas...or see how doing things to take such issues into account would enhance the sport.

I don't understand your resistances or your offenses, frankly--although I'm beginning to recognize them, oddly enough. Hmmm. What about this: haul someone over here from, oh, I dunno: Little League or something. A coach. Or maybe a parent. Have 'em read this thread. What do you think their impressions would be? That I'm stupid, lazy or selfish for expressing these things and/or reacting to my experience as I have? I honestly do not think that, looking at it from the OUTSIDE (as my friends were), I would be considered an unreasonable party in this discussion.

tle

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:30 AM

Anyone else starting to think that Christian's concussion rubbed off? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I don't understand your resistances or your offenses, frankly <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps it's the way you're attacking what you SAY you don't understand. You are taking our resistances negatively. Perhaps you shoudl read them as intended... educationally. Heck, we could just turn around and say "you don't know and we arent' gonig to tell you, so there http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif " but we aren't. We're telling you what is in place even if you don't see it. We're telling you that the impressions you're basing your harsh criticisms for the event/sport on are incorrect and unfounded AND WHY. We're telling you what is expected AND WHY.

I'm glad we're like this. Otherwise, we'd be adding knee-jerk rules to the sport in reaction rather than trying to look at what does work and why.

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:34 AM

Both the FEI and USEA require a safety coordinator/medical officer whose only responsibility is to plan and coordinate medical response.

I was the safety coordinator at a 3-day symposium. The FEI instructions said I should collect the arm bands and suggested that I make a photo copy of the information to keep in the secretariat for the duration of the event. But they didn't really tell me what I was to review. So I made some notes, created a spreadsheet with relevant information, and I shared it with the paramedic on duty. We were both a little better prepared to provide care that day. This usually isn't feasible at a horse trial.

I was at another event where there was a fall and the rider had to be transported away from the facility for care. That day a special committee was assembled who interviewed witnesses and reviewed tape of the happening and wrote up their conclusions. The organizers were not members of the hearing committee but were eager to receive their report.

In the US, there are newer restrictions on the sharing of patient information. And they apply to the pre-hospitalization care that someone receives at an event.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:36 AM

There are protocol for the first responders who see to the horse and rider in an emergency. What happens after the horse and rider are released from that care is up to the rider. I say that there are no protocol because those plans are up to the rider. There are no standard plans that everyone follows. Some barns pack up and go home if the coach is injured. Others stay. Some riders want their groom to come to the hospital and leave the care of the horse to a barnmate (which one?). Others want the groom to stay with the horse. Some want the horse vanned over to the nearest clinic. Others want the horse shipped back to the vet at home. The point is that the RIDER needs to let the people she is depending upon know what they should do. The organizers have no role in these arrangements, so there is nothing that they could post.

As for posted protocol, yes, everyone working at NASA has books of protocol. But there were no protocol the rest of the nation when the space shuttle exploded. That's because the rest of the nation was NOT in a position of responsibility.

My resistance is to the notion of shifting responsibility from the rider to the organizers. I think that makes the sport less, rather than more, safe.

I don't think and never said that you are stupid or lazy. I do think that your reaction is selfish -- you are criticizing things that were inconvenient to you personally. But I don't condemn you for speaking from your own experience and perspective. --Jess

Hilary

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:54 AM

A little late here, but I was very surprised in first post when you said you had not seen Connor compete recently, so you were unfamiliar with the scene at Kentucky.

I'm sure you were frantic when you couldn't figure out what happened, but in that case, I would suggest putting someone else in charge of your group of potential sponsors (OK everyone, I'm off to get the details, be back soon), and GO FIND OUT yourself. Eventing is very much a take-charge sport, and if you had asked 3 people "I think my rider is in trouble, how do I find out what might have happened" by the time you got to person #2, they would have at least had a suggestion of who to try next.

If you don't usually spectate, did your rider know you were looking for her?

I've been to a mountain bike race (talk about non-spectator friendly) and until your rider comes through the finish flags, you have NO idea (and no one else does either) where they are on course, or if they are OK.

At this event, someone did take care of horse and rider, but they didn't tell you, and that seems to be your beef.

My question to you is how would someone know to find you at this particular event - especially if you aren't usually in attendence.

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I'm a bit outraged that the medic didn't refer to the armband. It's dangerous to assume that everyone associated with a rider KNOWS the rider's history and/or knows the nature of eventing or whatever, right? ...The medic should know how it should be used, right? So shouldn't the medic inform whoever takes charge of the rider afterward, be it EMTs or friendly strangers or information on it and be referred to when these things arise? She was wearing one, but when I finally found her in the secretary's stand, no one mentioned it--and here I was with a head injury and a not-very-coherent person on the way to the hospital!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The residual msg. here (and I am an outsider, the moral equivalent of the Little League person) is of someone who really wanted her hand held and expected to make no effort to learn a bloody thing ahead of time. Spoon feed me, please. And you wanted a poster in the barn telling you what to do? That's easier than going to the sec. stand or finding someone with a radio?

Anyway, back to the EMT thing: if your rider was wearing an armband, why are you so mad? Was it gone when you found her? I didn't understand this part. Did Christian refuse transport?

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:00 PM

And what I'm saying, tle, is that, in my opinion--opinions being what they are, of course--that given the new realities this sport is facing "what is expected" truly needs to be re-evaluated.

And y'know what? "Re-evaluated" doesn't even have to mean "changed." It may be simply "formalized," as in written down. My goodness, what the heck is wrong with publishing guidelines, for heavens sake? How can you resist that? (Now, I know there's a certain shyness for writing things down and even more resistance about distribution! Heaven forbid sufficient agreement should occur that some really helpful documents might actually be distributed by an organization involved in a dangerous sport.)

IMO, the "next level" of eventing is to codify issues, especially in that gray area between the levels. (Pony Club is a great example of how this can be done, I think...Oh, egad. That one will get people flying off the track for sure!)

I think the sport, not the participants, should be responsible for the knowledge that keeps it safe and fair. (Realize that all I'm really talking about are eduational programs and literature, and maybe a reassessment of management standards and practices to reflect current trends.)

In sum, I believe that in relying on the individual, the sport takes chances that can hurt IT as well as the individual--and I realize that in THIS forum, that's a really different viewpoint, I guess. But it isn't in others.

IMO, sports which see themselves "MY" way (oh, lordy, lordy--such arrogance!) are healthier, grow faster and develop a wider and more consistent pool of top athletes than ones that leave things to a hit-or-miss process. It's a different way of seeing things, but not an unknown one.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:

I do not think that anyone who cares about the sport, the big picture, can possibly be happy with a statement like the one that seemed to condone organizers not knowing where a particular competing horse or rider was after a fall or other in-competition incident. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since that's MY statement you're jumping all over, please make sure you at least summarize it accurately. What I said was:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It is not at all unusual for there to be confusion about what happened to a certain horse. There are certain people who have radios and who know these things, and other people are left guessing. If you want to know what happened, you find one of those people who actually knows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When there are three or four horses out on course -- miles away in the woods where no one can see them -- at any given moment, it's unrealistic to expect that any given official is going to be able to give you a pinpoint location.

Have you ever jump judged, pwynn? Every once in a while, a rider will come through out of order... you were expecting #34 and all of a sudden you've got #116. The jump judges will say "Huh?" and get on the radio to find out what's going on. They will talk to the right people and figure it out.

I've volunteered as a scorer, and sometimes a score sheet will come back from a XC jump with a rider missing. Or penalties assessed to the wrong rider. Or whatever. It happens. That's why riders wear numbers, why jump judges have score sheets. Because it's darn hard to keep track of 200 horses over 20 different obstacles out in the middle of the woods.

My point was that if you had asked, for example, the Pony Clubber collecting pinneys what happened to your horse, and then asked the timer, and then asked someone in the vet box, you might have gotten several variations along the line of "He didn't finish." Those people wouldn't likely have known if he had a fall or not -- all they know is that he didn't come through the finish flags.

However, if you'd gone up to the finish and found someone with a radio, there's no doubt in my mind that you could have found out that the horse fell at obstacle #4, the rider was seen by a medic, and both walked off the course back toward the barn. Or whatever.

Point is, you have to know who to ask. You didn't know. THAT is why you were in the dark; not because the event should have had some protocol in place.

Robby Johnson

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:09 PM

The first time I groomed at a three-day event - in November, 2000 - I'd spent the better part of the Spring/Summer/Fall seasons meeting up with my rider at area-wide events to understand how she liked her system to work. This was very beneficial to both of us as we already had a "rhythm," once we got to the three-day.

Still, at the three-day, she went to great lengths to have nightly briefings with me, particularly before the XC day. I was still nervous but it went very well. So much so that the next three-day event - the MidSouth - went even better and by the next year, we took two to Radnor. Even between those three-days, I still would groom for her a little here and there at horse trials and it really made a big difference.

Was this Christan's first three-day as well?

I agree with what everyone else is saying and I think you want to hear something that isn't there to be said.

Robby

SBH

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:12 PM

I think the issue needs to be raised that the people you brought to the event and even yourself were not in the "immediate" need to know group. You are all novices to eventing - spectators, and if this accident had not happened to your rider, you would most likely have never known that it happened. That does not mean that someone wouldn't have known and taken care of the situation. Our sport is dangerous and as riders and grooms we take it very seriously. I know the protocol at a 3-day and the way I learned was to ask questions, work with others more experienced, and just hang out and watch how the "big time riders" grooms handled different situations. Do I feel like everyone that comes to an event needs to do this? No. If I went to a motorcross, I would not know what to do if a rider was injured. That is not my background. But that would not keep me from enjoying the sport. I feel the same about spectators at an event.

My question is, "Who was supposed to be helping your rider in the vet box? Who is her groom?" That is the person(s) that should be "in the know". If she left that job to you and your friends, then I fault her for not being prepared...you did not have the tools or knowledge to be left with that responsibility.

I'm sorry our sport came off to some people as unorganized and chaotic. Like I said before the vet box is a busy place. You have a lot of people and horses in a very small area trying to do quite a bit all at once. That can come off as unorganized, but to those of us that are in there doing our job it runs like a well-oiled machine.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I think the sport, not the participants, should be responsible for the knowledge that keeps it safe and fair. (Realize that all I'm really talking about are eduational programs and literature, and maybe a reassessment of management standards and practices to reflect current trends.)

[snip]

In sum, I believe that in relying on the individual, the sport takes chances that can hurt IT as well as the individual--and I realize that in THIS forum, that's a really different viewpoint, I guess. But it isn't in others.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can write things down, but participants still need to familiarize themselves with what is written for it to be useful. If the problem were that the information (what to do in case of fall of rider) where unavailable, then writing it down somewhere would help. But the problem wasn't that the information was unavailable -- if you'd asked Christan before the show what she would like you to do if she fell, presumably she would have told you. The problem was that you didn't have it. And simply writing it in a handbook wouldn't change that.

Also, again, people do things differently. I don't object at all to having some sort of standard, written safety plan. I believe that events have something similar as part of the internal planning process, and perhaps making it public would be beneficial. But you have to recognize that any such plan will end the minute that horse and rider are released from the care of first responders, and then you will be back in the original situation.

I don't know what you see as the alternative to relying on the individual, without fundamentally changing the sport. If individuals aren't expected to have their own contingency plans, are they expected to know all the rules -- or should we allow them to ask the jump judge "oops, I think I might have missed a fence, can you tell me where number 4 is?" And hey -- if the organizers are going to make sure that my horses are taken care of if there is an accident, then I'm not going to drag my friends along to be there "just in case" any more. It's great that someone else will take care of things for me... I just don't like where this leads. --Jess

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:13 PM

To be fair, Anne, as I stood waiting, the medic discussed things with Christan and she made her own decisions...but therein lies my concern, in fact.

The medic told me about the memory loss. I'm standing there reeling from the responsibility of taking her to the hospital with a head injury and having no clue who to contact if things should get complicated...but isn't that what the armband is for? For all that was known at the time, Christan may not have been in ANY state of mind to make decisions for herself then or once she reached the hospital. Isn't this where those armbands are supposed to come in? [In fact, maybe checking armband information on a head injury type accidents is an example of sound protocol?]

I don't know the history of those armbands. Early on in this thread, someone criticized them. But they seem like good ideas to me and I'm troubled indeed that they don't seem to be being used (not that this one instance should stand for any others!). In fact, I'm confused by the comments that have been made about them. I'd think all would consider them a step in the right direction, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

Gry2Yng

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:14 PM

JA Gold you are a breath of fresh air. It is about personal responsibility.The shortest route to losing what we value in this sport and this country is to abdicate our personal responsibility.

I will put my flame suit on! I am so sick of hearing how society, the USEA, the government, the organizers etc has a responsibility to take care of so and so. We have a responsibility to take care of ourselves. And those who have reached a level of experience and knowledge and self-actualization have a responsibility to reach out and educate the next generation. That next generation has a responsibility to reach out and find the oppotunity and to be smart enough to learn to walk before they try to run.

I spend much of my personal time EVERY DAY looking for ways to improve the sport, educate newbies, bring young riders through the ranks and ensure the stewardship of these great horses.

You showed up at a three day event ignorant of the way it works. Shame on you. You are obviously intelligent and interested in the sport. Working the 10 minute box at a CCI is not like going to spectate at your kid's soccer game. Every groom that goes to NARYC from my Area submits a resume and references. Those references are checked. On top of that, they are not left to their own devices. We rehearse. Then we try to recreate the high stress of the 10 minute box and rehearse again. And even still, these kids are supervised by adults who have a depth of experience at CCI's.

It is one of the great thrills of my year to pass on knowledge to the grooms at young riders and to watch the experienced riders teach the grooms and the first timers. It is perhaps the biggest reason I fear the loss of the long format. I fear the loss of the knowledge and the personal responsibility we teach our young riders in teaching them how to do this sport.

Midsouth is a VERY well run event. Any one of the 16-21 year olds I had in the box with me at NAYRC this summer would have been able to find out where your rider was. The organizer cannot be responsible for every individual that walks through the front gate.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:14 PM

I think part of the problem is that you went to the event in the role of "hands-off owner/spectator", and found yourself thrust, without proper preparation, into the role of "support team".

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:
Pwynnnorman, you're acting like no one has protocols or written procedures and we've just gone through page after page of people pointing out that these things already exist and are in use and in use quite effectively, yet just because YOU didn't know them (because you made not one iota of effort to find out) you keep ranting that eventing needs this and eventing needs that. You're not listening: it HAS these things. I didn't know why you couldn't see what was right in front of you until I read this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I think the sport, not the participants, should be responsible for the knowledge that keeps it safe and fair.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh. my. god.

With all the wealth of information, publications, websites, etc. etc. on eventing rules, regs, and protocols, you make NO EFFORT to find out and become educated and instead blame the sport because 'the participant should not be responsible.'

What a disaster in the making. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SBH

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:20 PM

Also, you do not know that the protocol isn't written down. Its called a rule book. The people that need to know, know. Period! Do you expect every event to pass out a book on protocol to every person that shows up? I don't feel that is realistic. Most would not care. If you had been around eventing enough you would have known that a walk to the secretary's office would have yielded the answer you sought. The secretary always has a radio!

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
To be fair, Anne, as I stood waiting, the medic discussed things with Christan and she made her own decisions...but therein lies my concern, in fact.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, pwn, for clarifying. Again, though, it's a LEGAL issue. If Christian passed the test of being mentally competent (awake, alert, could correctly respond to questions)and is of the age of consent, the EMT MUST LEGALLY release her. To do otherwise is against the law for the EMT. Short-term memory loss is common in concussions. If she passed all the criteria for being mentally competent, the law says she can make her own decision and that EMT would've been in BIG legal trouble for restraining her. That's U.S. law and has nothing to do with the competency of the event organizers.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:31 PM

I put this in an edited previous post, but it was too late to make sense, so I'll put it here.

JAGold, actually it's not changing the sport that I'm talking about: it's the fact that the sport IS changing! How can we, here on this BB, ignore the other threads that illustrate those changes? The problem is, people who err CAN BE HARMED OR CAUSE HARM. As a teacher, I have to accept the fact that there are more learning disabilities these days and I'm expected to deal with them. A

s event organizers/leaders in the sport/policymakers/decisionmakers, perhaps there is a need to acknowledge something similar. "Y'all" want to point the finger at US (or "moi"), but there's MORE of us every day. You want us to find another sandbox to play in or put some thought to accomodating reality instead of preaching ideals and tradition?

sfir

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:31 PM

Hi Pwynnorman - glad to see you guys got home safely.
I am glad I saw this thread as I was one of the first on the scene of Christan's fall I may be able to shed some light on some of the speculation that is starting to come up here. Christan's fall was announced as a fall of horse and rider. I was walking the course again and when I heard it I headed that way. I do not believe you could hear the announcers in the vet box but I do know they did anounce the fall and the fence where it occurred. By the time I got there my husband was walking Christan's horse and she was talking to him. She had been checked out and had answered all of the usual questions (phone number, name, birthdate etc) fine. I spoke to her a few minutes and grabbed her tack and we started to walk back to the stabling area. I heard them announce that both rider and horse were ok and heading back to the stabling area.
As we started walking back Christan stated (as any good upper level rider would and usually does) that she was a little fuzzy on what had happened but did not want anyone to know because then she would not be able to ride her second horse. As we continued the walk she was getting more and more confused and was repeating herself quite a bit. It was at that point that I told her that I was sorry but there was no way I was going to let her get on another horse and that I was insisting she go to the medics immediately. I then flagged down Cathy W on her scooter and she took her off to the secretary's office.
My point here is I know that as far as the officials, fence judges, announcers etc knew Christan was fine and had been checked out and was leaving the course on foot so there was no need to alert anyone. Having been on the other side of this personally (falling and not getting up I mean) I know that usually it is only at that point where they make a point to announce 'will someone from rider #49's crew please head to fence 21 immediately for assistance).
I am not stating an opinion on anything here, just what I know from my perspective. I am surprised however that you could not hear the announcer from the vet box and I think that would have made a big difference in this particular instance. Usually you can hear what is going on from there.
Say Hi to Christan for me and I hope that both the ponies are well!
Ruthie

JenJ

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:36 PM

I haven't read all the posts, so I hope I'm not repeating anything ...
from my personal experience both as a rider and as a jump judge (many times over), I found it enlightening how much i learned in the role of volunteer about the way events are run, what happens when something goes wrong and who is responsible to handle what situation.
Gave me an entirely new perspective as a rider and makes me appreciate our wonderful sport even more.

RAyers

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:41 PM

pwynnnorman,

First, I understand your concerns, however I think your anger comes more from not understanding the system for 3days. First the rules and organization are established by the FEI, not the particular show. Second, there are specific protocols and strategies to cope with as many exigencies as possible. The ANNOUNCER is NOT and official and as such rarely has access to information other than who is on course and where they MAY be (if they can not see the enitre course). The people BEHIND the scenes, CONTROL (the 1 person who controls EVERYTHING that happens on a XC course. NOBODY outranks them), PRESIDENT of the GROUND JURY and TECHNICAL DELEGATE (oversee all rules enforcement), VETS, EMTs, ORGANIZER, STARTERS, SECTION STEWARD (oversees a section of the course and relays important information such as falls to CONTROL) all are connected by radios of various frequencies. There is an INSANE amout of radio traffic going on behind the scenes (somtimes it sounds like a military exercise). I have worked as announcer, control, vet assistant, jump judge, and section steward. I am also literally a ROCKET SCIENTIST. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The day before XC all of these folks meet in 1 room and go over standard and emergency protocols with the FEI steward. We make sure everyone knows where and when they are supposed to be. The morning of XC we meet with the jump judges to go over protocols and CONTROL will remind them over radio during the day what to do in emergencies.

Our focus as officials is the safety and security of the rider and horse, FIRST and FOREMOST. Since at any given time we may have 2-4 horses on course we have little time to pass on details or to make sure all information gets passed on to the announcer (who may or may not pass that on to the spectators). I am sorry that this upsets you, but I have seen this system work VERY effectively in some horrendous crashes to save both horse and rider. The spectators were sadly left out of the loop but they are a secondary concern in those situations.

sfir's post should highlight how this system works. The rider selfishly HELD BACK information VITAL to her own safety! I am glad sfir was there, otherwise an even more horrific accident would have happend and it would be nobody's other than the rider making a foolish choice. I do believe the FEI does REQUIRE medical examination of a rider post crash before they can go again, anyway. I have had the experience of seeing riders with broken bones hide the fact and try to ride second horses while on painkillers and end up crashing. Other than requiring mandetory medical exams, the riders MUST take RESPONSIBILITY for the ultimate safety of them and their horse. I hope this helps you understand what is happening during XC.

Reed

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
JAGold, actually it's not changing the sport that I'm talking about: it's the fact that the sport IS changing! How can we, here on this BB, ignore the other threads that illustrate those changes? The problem is, people who err CAN BE HARMED OR CAUSE HARM.

[snip]

You want us to find another sandbox to play in or put some thought to accomodating reality instead of preaching ideals and tradition? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the issue you've raised is a common problem or emblematic of a sea change in the sport. I don't see lots of people showing up at competitions, feeling responsible for a rider who has been injured, and not knowing what to do. So I don't think that this is a change in the sport that needs to be accomodated.

The increased participation of amateurs as riders has been accomodated by the addition of the novice division, the codification of beginner novice standards, and the introduction of training level three days. The importance of sponsors has been highlighted in many ways at major competitions -- for example, stable passes are readily available to sponsors, and many big competitions provide special seating, parking, or other privilages to sponsors. Sponsors are less common at the one star level and below, so there are fewer accomodations.

However, I'm not sure what you are suggesting in response to the idea that "people who err CAN BE HARMED OR CAUSE HARM." There are routine announcements to keep an eye out for galloping horses. Programs frequently contain warnings about the horse having the right of way -- maybe programs that don't have such a warning should be required to. But as to causing harm by not knowing a rider's medical history? Well, the simple solution is to not intervene. It's not the organizer's responsibility to teach that if you can't help, stay out of the way.

It sounds like Christan got immediate help from people who knew her. Those who needed to respond had the information necessary to do so. The information that sfir posted -- that Christan had been checked by the medic and was accompanied by people who knew her -- reinforces what I said earlier -- that every situation is unique and once the rider has left the care of the first responders, there is no standard protocol. --Jess

Gry2Yng

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>"Y'all" want to point the finger at US (or "moi"), but there's MORE of us every day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By US, I am assuming you mean the uninitiated. Yes, there are more and more of you. And you won't take responsibility for your own ignorance. My dad used to tell a story about the Farmal tractor. (One of their model has the two front wheels that lean in toward each other.) The Farmall was well know by all farmers to have poor brakes. My dad would never let me drive the Farmall as a young girl because he didn't think I could recognize the difference between a safe situation and a dangerous situation ON THAT TRACTOR.

One day, a family moved from the city and bought a "farmette" that came with a Farmall tractor. The seller, an old farmer that had reached retirement told the City Folk that "Y'all better becareful with that tractor. Brakes don't work real good." I am sure you can all jump ahead to the end of the story, which is that the City Folk ran downhill into a ditch and flipped the tractor over on himself and subsequently tried to sue Farmall.

In this day and age, I am sure City Folk would have won. As this was the early 70's, the conclusion of City Folk's farmer peers was that "everybody knows the brakes don't work."

No one erred in the treatment of your rider. You showed up on the farm without knowing how to run the equipment and now you want to blame the equipment manufacturer because you don't know everything that everyone who has been around the farm already knows.

If you want to enjoy the farm, learn something about it first.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:56 PM

Thanks for your input and your help that day, sfir!

Yes, in all of this posting, the communication part is what is getting lost a bit. It's just a fact: the PA system was lousy in places. I don't know why, but there was no PA in the stabling area until when? I think it was Saturday afternoon or maybe even Sunday morning. Frankly, I've never been to ANY fairly big horse event with so many stabled horses where there was no communication with the stables.

Lastly, my field is communication, so perhaps I make assumptions about the interpretation of certain terms I'm using.

Posting means having a placard displayed in a frequented spot. Protocols are brief but clear write ups that regulate courses of action (I'm ad libbing these, not really defining them formally). Guidelines are similar, except aimed an the layperson. In a dangerous endeavor, whenever possible protocols and guidelines are posted...not buried in rule books or manuals. They are short, simple references that can be followed in the event of an emergency by people who may or may not be trained, prepared or suited to act wisely or knowledgeably.

Are you telling me these things are NOT GOOD IDEAS for eventing? I could even envision a small budget in some USEA department for having them printed up and laminated so they might be available for organizers to use and re-use. This isn't hand-holding. It's merely covering bases and being thorough. Think Heimlich Maneuver.

This is getting off track, but one of the problems, too, with all sometimes amateurishly run endeavors is that the RANGE of options for communicating and educating and leading aren't always considered. Reality is that a rulebook is not necessarily the only--much less the best--format for accomplishing certain communication and education objectives. Again, my point is to rethink given the realities. MAYBE distributing guidelines in the form of articles or brochures or whatever is BETTER and WISER...today.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RAyers:

I am also literally a ROCKET SCIENTIST. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love it whenever Reed can come on a thread and throw down his rocket scientist gauntlet! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

pwynn, people are saying over and over again that the protocol IS in place. Had any one of us been with you at that event, we could immediately have gotten you the information you needed. Had you asked the five people standing closest to you, I'd bet money that at least one (if not three or four) could have done the same thing for you.

I'm not quite clear on why you think the USEA needs some kind of educational system for "hands-off owner/spectators." Three-day events do tend to get quite a few specators, and they are generally good about issuing guidelines. (Stay out of the galloping lanes, keep dogs on a leash, etc.)

I think it was Janet who said that the main problem here is that you intended to be "just" a spectator, but were instead thrust unexpectedly into the role of "support person." To me, that doesn't seem to be a common enough scenario that the USEA needs a contingency plan for it.

I think the rider is responsible for having and educating a support team. I am also willing to bet that at most any event, a rider WITHOUT a support team would be taken care of -- someone would step up to see to the horse, drive the rig home, whatever. That's what eventers do.

But if the rider's support people aren't prepared, I don't see that that's the USEA or organizers' fault.

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:02 PM

RAyers

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:05 PM

pwynnnorman,

Almost every program has guidelines listed for the spectators as weel as the competitiors, so oyur idea has already been incorporated. At some point, the rider, owners, and trainers MUST take responsibility. As Karen O'Conner once told me, Eventing WILL find your weak point, exploit it a nd make you PAY. It scared me enough to make an enormous effort to learn this sport inside and out.

Reed

wanderlust

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:06 PM

pwynn, are you always this obtuse? By reading Ruthie's account, the officials and medics are not remotely at fault. If you were uncomfortable taking Christan to the hospital, you should have requested that the paramedics call her emergency contact (contained in the armband) and transport her to the hospital.

This weekend, a horse and rider from our barn took a nasty spill in showjumping. By the time I got to the in-gate from across the field (in less than probably 2 minutes), the paramedics were already with the rider, the vet had been called, the horse had been covered with a cooler, his tack had been loosened and he was being walked by one of the officials. One person met the paramedics at the hospital, I stayed with the horse and vet. Not rocket science... just quick action based on the emergency protocols the officials have already been trained on extensively.

I can't imagine that a step-by-step "process" could have made the situation go any smoother... and in the case that something had gone wrong or step had been missed, it could leave officials and volunteers vulnerable to litigation. Not a good thing for our sport.

The next time you want to drag potential sponsors along, you should probably try a horse trials. They tend to be easier for the lay-person to understand. You may also want to make sure your rider has the appropriate support team.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
In a dangerous endeavor, whenever possible protocols and guidelines are posted...not buried in rule books or manuals. They are short, simple references that can be followed in the event of an emergency by people who may or may not be trained, prepared or suited to act wisely or knowledgeably.

Are you telling me these things are NOT GOOD IDEAS for eventing? I could even envision a small budget in some USEA department for having them printed up and laminated so they might be available for organizers to use and re-use. This isn't hand-holding. It's merely covering bases and being thorough. Think Heimlich Maneuver.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the best thing for people who "may or may not be trained, prepared or suited to act wisely or knowledgeably" is to let the people who ARE trained, prepared, or suited to act wisely and knowledgeably do their thing. At a CCI, human and equine veterinary personel are required to be on grounds. They are the specialists.

I don't think we need placards posted in hospital hallways, letting visitors know how to perform CPR. Visitors should get the heck out of the way and let the doctors and nurses perform CPR if there is a problem. There needs to be a warning system such that doctors and nurses know when there is a problem -- just as medics and vets need to know when there is a problem on course. At this event, they did know.

So yes, I am telling you that these things are not good ideas for eventing. Horses are dangerous. The best place for people who don't know how to respond (not you in particular, I know you know horses) is OUT OF THE WAY. If any guideline was to be posted, it should be "stay out of the way and let the professionals respond."

I'm not sure I think the Heimlich Maneuver signs are a good idea, either -- people can do a lot of harm by doing it wrong. But there aren't first responders stationed at every resturant, ready to react to a choking patron. There are first responders at every event.

As for post-emergency care, that is the responsibility of the rider (for the n-th time). I don't think events need to supply signs posted in the barn that say "If your horse's leg is warm or swollen, cold horse it and call the vet. If your horse is overheated, use cold water on areas with lots of blood flow, like the legs and neck, but don't put lots of cold water over large muscle groups... If the person who is riding the horse you own is injured, please see the secretary for contact information for the rider's parents." --Jess

LisaB

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:11 PM

I'm glad sfir shed some light on this. That's the way falls are normally handled.
As far as communication is concerned, since you are in that industry, maybe you can write up a set of suggestions to USEA to help them out?
And I usually get in the program, in the very front, a list of rules and guidelines as well as a brief description of what's going on. Then I've been asked questions on a number of occassions from spectators. Not a problem.
Hey, next time you do this, go up to Stuart HT! I hear they are excellent in the protocol dept. I think a lot of events are taking thier ideas.

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RAyers:
The rider selfishly HELD BACK information VITAL to her own safety! I am glad sfir was there, otherwise an even more horrific accident would have happend and it would be nobody's other than the rider making a foolish choice.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reed's point is excellent (as are so many others on this thread) and underscores mine exactly: as more people like this are coming into the sport, more disasters will happen. Yet this, scarily, is Pwynnnorman's point, too: more people like this are eventing, what is eventing going to do about it?

So this is the argument. Pwynnnorman says "there are MORE" people like her coming into the sport every day. OK, I'm agreeing now that this can be a tragedy in the making, but I completely think the rant should be not against the sport, but against the people coming in with that attitude.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:15 PM

Gry2Yng, your post reminds me to point something else out.

I used to trailer Con to events every other weekend, acting as groom. I'm not as ignorant as I may have seemed to leave it...but YEAH, that was only Con's second one-star...so, how much does one learn under limited circumstances.

You folks just are not thinking about HOW IT IS DONE (I'm thinking, like, storks delivering babies.) How often does it take for someone to learn? What must they experience? How can you be sure they do? How many events does it take? What if, like my rider, competing in 3-day events is SO EXPENSIVE that such experiences CANNOT be all that numerous?...And what ARE they/we supposed to be learning: what to do if you can't hear the PA and you can't find your rider isn't in the rulebooks (and the person DID find her by asking around, BTW). These are especially befuddling questions if you want to concurrently argue that "it's too complicated to develop protocols, etc." Do you see what I mean about "hit or miss" learning processes?

There are great gaps in some of the reasoning here, I believe, and falling into through gaps can be dangerous...or maybe just discouraging. Is such a state "good"? (sigh) Walk a mile...

AGAINST THE SPORT!!!!! WHO THE HECK SAID THAT!

That's it, folks. You guys are just too defensive. EVERYONE has issues here and there. When the heck is that being against the sport?

Against some of YOUR perspectives, sure. But you guys are NOT "the sport," folks. I'm not at all sure how representative (of "the sport") any of us who can post here can possibly be, in fact.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I'm not quite clear on why you think the USEA needs some kind of educational system for "hands-off owner/spectators." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, Erin, I didn't say that. You are reading into my words things that are not there. The trend I'm referring to, again, is the "weekend warrior" adult amateur syndrome that IS IS IS changing the nature of the sport.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:19 PM

Y'know what, pwynn? I think the answer can be found back on page 1 and summarized thusly: "If you don't know what to do, ask someone with a radio or a clipboard."

It's never failed me yet. And in your specific case, it would have worked just fine.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> the officials and medics are not remotely at fault. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wanderlust, at fault for WHAT? WHEN did I say they were at fault for anything other than having a crappy PA system that left us clueless IN COMPARISON TO OTHER EVENTS!

I described awkward circumstances that arose. PEOPLE, WHEN WHEN WHEN did I start "blaming" anyone (except for the communication problem)? WHEN? AND FOR WHAT (except for the communication problem)?

This is like playing telephone.

And, Erin, that is EXACTLY what the MBA-not-an-idiot waiting in the vet box DID do when #50 came home and #47/8 didn't, as I said a while ago! Again, the problem was NO PA in the stables, so no one knew someone was needed in the secretary's stand to deal with the situation there. (Recall, please, that the person in the vet box was taking care of the injured horse and we--our own error, mentioned on page ONE--mistook one gray walking back for another.) Remember the thread name: "Tragedy" of errors. Recall the reference implied (a la "comedy" of errors)? GET IT?

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
There are great gaps in some of the reasoning here, I believe, and falling into through gaps can be dangerous... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, yeah. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pay attention! (LOL) There ARE protocols - and by all the examples listed, including yours, the people who were there, followed them superbly. Your reasoning has the gaps because you are still saying, because 'you' did not know, it wasn't known. Au contraire.

To answer your question, it should take NO events for a horse person to have a back-up plan in case of emergency, but I'll play your game and say, ok, more people like you have no plan of what to do in case of accident and just went blithely into a *CCI. Well, I'd think next time you'll be a little more prepared, won't you? Or didn't you and Christian learn anything from this event?

KellyS

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The trend I'm referring to, again, is the "weekend warrior" adult amateur syndrome that IS IS IS changing the nature of the sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a "weekend warrior" adult amateur I take offense to this statement. I, and every other adult amateur I compete, with would have known how to handle the situation in question. I'm not even sure what you are getting at anymore. At one point it sounds like you're talking about spectators/bystanders and the next minute you're discussing the riders.

It sounds as if "you're rider" did not have an adequate and knowledgeable support team. If I didn't feel *I* had sufficient experience at that level, I would make sure I was surrounded by people who did, including a pro/mentor. Color me confused, but it seems like the problems arose from communication issues with your support team, not with the event/organizers/officials.

It is just hard to understand how you can criticize a system when you yourself admit that you're not familiar with all the rules and protocols. And when you question - how do I learn this? The simple answer is - VOLUNTEER! The USEA can print and post all the signs in the world, but until you've actually been out there in the trenches, you will not understand how it works. It would be like trying to ride a cross country course having only read about it in a book.

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
PEOPLE, WHEN WHEN WHEN did I start "blaming" anyone (except for the communication problem)? WHEN? AND FOR WHAT (except for the communication problem)?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I just reread your initial post and it was full of blame. Here's my favorite:

<<How the heck can one get SUPPORT for a talented horse when it seems that all he's doing is competing in some half-assed sport where people risk their necks and no one knows what to do when something goes wrong?>>

After 4 pages of this thread it is crystal-clear to me that frankly, EVERYONE but you knew exactly what to do. EVERYONE. People here even posted that they heard the PA announcements about the fall, too, and they were in the vet box. Just because 1) you and 2) Christian's person in the vet box missed what many others heard and/or found out, made your rant without merit this time.

To say it's a 'half-assed sport...and no one knows what to do' was simply untrue in Christian's situation. They all knew what to do. All but you. So your rant is really against yourself. Every one else did their job superbly.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:34 PM

You bet we will, Anne. And I'll not return to Kentucky, either (until Con does Rolex, that is!).

I am saddened that the point about the communication and its effect on my party (YES, I KNOW THAT's SELFISH, but would YOU want more people to enjoy the sport in whatever way possible!!!!) got lost in all of this. Defend away, but horse events with good communication are ultimately more popular than those without, plain and simple. Outsiders can't understand why they don't understand and they'll not come IN until they do.

As for me, at worst, I'd probably (if I were RICH, that is), just not give some talented no name any chances at all on my "valuable" animal. Instead, in my wealthy dream, I'll only use big names. Who knows what those little people might or might not know. This sport has little concern for their development, so I can't possibly be SURE unless I only use the very best! (Said sarcastically, not aimed at the sport but rather at attitudes here.)

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
You folks just are not thinking about HOW IT IS DONE (I'm thinking, like, storks delivering babies.) How often does it take for someone to learn? What must they experience? How can you be sure they do? How many events does it take? What if, like my rider, competing in 3-day events is SO EXPENSIVE that such experiences CANNOT be all that numerous?...And what ARE they/we supposed to be learning: what to do if you can't hear the PA and you can't find your rider isn't in the rulebooks (and the person DID find her by asking around, BTW). These are especially befuddling questions if you want to concurrently argue that "it's too complicated to develop protocols, etc." Do you see what I mean about "hit or miss" learning processes?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I discussed this earlier. I think that to learn enough to compete at a three day, a rider should groom at a three day and train with a professional who has experience at three days. There is no fixed number of times or experiences that guarantees a base level of knowledge -- surely you, as a teacher, know that people learn at different rates and in different ways.

While competing is expensive, grooming is free (sometimes better than free) as is volunteering. If a rider can't afford to compete a lot -- and even if she can -- she should groom and volunteer to learn the behind-the-scenes stuff. What riders, grooms, or anyone else who wants to be involved is supposed to be learnings is 1) the rules, 2) how stuff works optimally, and 3) what people do when stuff doesn't go as planned. Number 3 is the tricky one, and it ONLY comes with experience. There is no way that anyone could write the action plan for all possible contingencies. What if the horse throws TWO shoes, not one? What if both stirrup leathers break? (I'm giving examples of things that go one step beyond what we typically prepare for, but could be handled by an experienced rider or groom.) The only thing to do is to follow around someone who is more experienced and see how he responds to these types of situations.

There isn't an ultimate checklist of everything you need to know, so there is no surefire way to know everything. Sorry. That's the way it is -- and that is true of horses in general.

As for accomodating weekend warriors, again, it's being done with the introduction of lower levels, the training three days, and the emphasis on coaching that is embodied by the instructor certification program. None of that would have helped you last weekend, and what you wanted wouldn't have helped a weekend warrior. --Jess

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
But, Erin, I didn't say that. You are reading into my words things that are not there. The trend I'm referring to, again, is the "weekend warrior" adult amateur syndrome that IS IS IS changing the nature of the sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm trying to read into your words something that makes SENSE.

I do NOT think we should be trying to make our sport immediately accessible to people who do not understand it or its rules. Whenever a h/j person comes over to this forum and says "Hey, I think eventing looks like fun... how do I start?" the universal response is FIND A COACH or knowledgeable person to help you learn to navigate the waters. There is NO substitute for this.

You shouldn't learn to event from a USEA pamphlet. I've been eventing for 20 years, but if I suddenly decided to switch to barrel racing, I sure as hell wouldn't pull into a show with my rig and hop on and expect to be able to figure it out. I'd seek out knowledgeable people and educate myself first.

If you're trying to say that USEA should be doing more to help people unfamiliar with eventing understand what's going on, I don't think that's a point many people would argue with.

The problem, I think, is that anyone who is any sort of position of responsibility at an event should ALREADY have that education. Look at everyone's descriptions of how they learned to be part of someone's crew in the vet box. That was all education that those people sought out themselves. It wasn't provided by USEA or the organizers.

Frankly, all your questions probably could have been answered by simply starting a thread on this forum last week saying, "Hey, I'm going to my first three-day as an owner/spectator. What should I expect?"

The information is all out there if you have the initiative to find it or ask some questions. You shouldn't be in any kind of position of responsibility at an event -- whether it's as a groom, volunteer, rider, whatever -- without having already sought out that education.

I think USEA's responsibility ends with telling spectators to stay out of the horses' way, and by providing them with a link to the USEA website in the program so they can start to learn more about eventing if they want to. USEA already has a very good book out (and it's been around for years) that's meant as a first-timer's guide, and I'm sure it can be purchased from their website.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:38 PM

Anne, the operative words in that quote were "it seems." In that long-past post, I was illustrating impressions...IMPRESSIONS (and NOT mine either, alas--one of my companions used the illustration as we discussed things over dinner, in fact). Perhaps I should have used quotation marks or something.

Erin, I've lost count of the number of three day events I've been to as a spectator. No, not an owner, and no, not in the vet box (except *I* wasn't the one in the vet box at all).

Are you guys really saying that the sport (its representative organization, not an single event organizer) has no educational responsibilities?

Then what the heck are alll those fluffer-nutter articles in the magazine about?????

No, you're all die hards, that's all. Even reading local combined training association newsletters shows how many DO see the need to educate. That's really a non-argument people seem to be arguing just because I'm saying it. I'm shaking my head in puzzlement here. Maybe tomorrow I'll look into some committee names and get specifics on this perspective because I have no doubt I'm not alone in it (jsut here!).

tle

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:40 PM

Oh how I hope someone has already said this...<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
IAs a teacher, I have to accept the fact that there are more learning disabilities these days and I'm expected to deal with them. As event organizers/leaders in the sport/policymakers/decisionmakers, perhaps there is a need to acknowledge something similar. "Y'all" want to point the finger at US (or "moi"), but there's MORE of us every day. You want us to find another sandbox to play in or put some thought to accomodating reality instead of preaching ideals and tradition? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PLEASE don't tell me you're comparing students with learning disabilities and those who are too lazy/ignorant/non-self-reliant/clueless/etc to learn the rules of a sport??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif :sad: http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
As for me, at worst, I'd probably (if I were RICH, that is), just not give some talented no name any chances at all on my "valuable" animal. Instead, in my wealthy dream, I'll only use big names. Who knows what those little people might or might not know. This sport has little concern for their development, so I can't possibly be SURE unless I only use the very best! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, even sarcastically, this makes no sense. You are Still missing the point - which is that there are multiple plans & protocols or whatever you want to call them, many meetings to ensure their effectiveness, and myriad ways new eventers are encouraged to participate and learn in the sport by coming and volunteering, having your rider meet with you, explain to you, rehearse with you, practice with you.....many, many plans & suggestions mentioned in this thread. Have you heard NONE of them? The plans are there, the learning tools are THERE for the taking - why can't you see them??!?

annikak

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:43 PM

Pwy...

I really think that you have some valid points. As I said earlier- Yes it was hard to hear what was going on in the barns. It always is at the horse park. I grumble, esp when riding 2 horses- but I truck up to see what is happening. I have threatened to get a radio to carry so I can evesdrop- just so I can know where things stand!
And yes...scary to not know where someone is. (I yell like a total nut case when the kids come home late...its my fear coming thru....) and then, I would rant, too!

I have been on both sides of the coin. And I agree with whomever said...she did what any rider would do....said that she was okay. ANd thank GOD someone who knew her was there to make sure that she did not ride another horse, to indeed avoid the possibility of another incident. I remember that people grumbled when they made a mandatory check of riders being down before they were allowed to continue. Head stuff is TOUGH to deal with. And I am sure that she said what she needed to say and the paramedics made their best call at the moment.

I also did hear some being called to assist a loose horse- getting that horse back to the barns. And when we led back the horse that we caught, the secretary was waiting for me, so i could get the stall number for the rider/horse.

I know that there used to be a book about doing your first event- I wonder if they covered anything like that in there? And it makes me think a bit more about going to events alone- which I have done often with my horses.

But, to agree- it was hard to hear in the barn. But I think that Nigel made his best call about when to talk to the barns- just because there were a zillion things going on and I think it might have become idle chatter.

I do remember them trying to find the owner of a lost chestnut horse, tho! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (Not mine, thankfully!) I think they announced that a lot!

And as far as USPC goes- well, they hold the standard for safety. Parents, kids and horses- oh my! We have learned a lot from them- and they, us. I do believe that they (USEA and FEI) have a standard of treatment/care in case of an emergency- I am sure that it had the steps/reports that need to be handled in such a case. And perhaps there is something about getting to the 'responsible" party if the rider needed to be transported. They did not think that she needed to be, and it must have become obvious later that she was actually hurt more then origionally thought.

Again, I am really sorry that you had a rough weekend. And I know that I would have been more then willing to help had I seen a scared or confused face. I really DO like eventing. A lot, and I really like the people involved a lot, too. I feel terrible that you had a bad experience, and wish that somehow I could have been there for you in some way. Gives me something to think about.

deltawave

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:43 PM

All the back and forth is making me dizzy...pwynn, what--exactly--would you have had the organizers/officials do better? The announcer can't speculate over the loudspeaker, nobody even knows who might be there watching a particular horse/rider team go, and it sounds like everything WAS handled, only you got left out of the loop. While the latter is unfortunate and no doubt frustrating, I would hardly call this a "TRAGEDY". Heaven knows there are enough of those, and your inconvenience and frustration do not qualify as such.

I also wonder if there aren't some sort of legal ramifications to blurting out for all to hear that "Jane Doe is down on course and looks to be badly injured". That would get you in big trouble with HIPAA if you were sitting in a hospital! Talk about over-regulation for the sake of being PC...blecch. I personally would FREAK if I heard that over the loudspeaker. If my horse/rider didn't show up as expected I would go find an official.

It reminds me of "A Few Good Men"--you know the scene where Tom Cruise is interrogating the good-hearted young Marine and asked him how he managed to feed himself if there was no written or "official" regulation on meals in the "rule book"? He answered "I just follow the line at chow time, sir". Food for thought--no pun intended.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:46 PM

BTW, I have been at many events where you could not always hear the PA from every location on the property. When that has been the case, I made darn sure I hiked up to the scoreboard or whatnot several times a day to make sure things were still on schedule, that I was still riding when I thought I was, etc. Again, personal responsibility. Sure, it's a pain in the butt because you end up walking a couple of extra miles. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

And then after the event, I would put a comment in on the part of the evaluation form where they have a specific question about the PA system and whether or not you could hear it from everywhere.

BTW, if there HAD been a PA in the barn in your scenario, how exactly would the outcome have changed? I don't think the announcer would have said anything. Your rider wasn't in any sort of imminent danger and wasn't being rushed off to the hospital. So you could have been sitting there in the barn listening to the announcing and STILL have had no idea where your rider was. Not because of the PA or lack thereof, but because you weren't actively seeking out that information, but were somehow expecting it to be delivered to you.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>PLEASE don't tell me you're comparing students with learning disabilities and those who are too lazy/ignorant/non-self-reliant/clueless/etc to learn the rules of a sport??? :sad:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Noooo, I'm not--not LITERALLY! I'm saying that in today's world, we have to deal with dummies in much the same way we have to deal with those who are genuinely disabled! It's not how I'd LIKE it to be--it's just reality!

Eventing for Dummies. Look at the way the WORLD, much less the sport, is going and you can see why the dummy concept may need more attention here! Read THIS between my words: WE DUMMIES ARE ON THE INCREASE...are you going to ignore that fact? I don't think the association is, in fact, which is why I (way back when) included suggestions for improvement to account for us dummies.

Again, you want us just to up and leave? Methinks "we" are here to stay--as a trend, that is. (Oh, boy, will some folks who know me be roiling on this, my latest, approach!) And if you want "us...as novice riders, newbie owners, distant owners, one-star wannabes or even rich parents of kids buying made horses or whatever....to keep paying the bills (ok, ok, this ISN'T really "me" speaking!), y'all are going to have to acknowledge that we're dummies and deal with us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Everyplace else in this world is, y'know. DUMMIES ABOUND!

adamsmom

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:55 PM

I got in really late on this, but I have to completely agree w/ KellyS If you and/or your rider don't have the money to learn how a 3-day works by doing or through their coach, then VOLUNTEER.
I've never ridden in a 3-day, but I've groomed at hundreds, from the Mid-South one star to Badminton. And let me tell you, when my rider fell & retired on course at Badminton, no one came running to find me.
Perhaps, as well, you should hire an experienced 3-day groom next time, who knows what the protocol is.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:59 PM

Erin, according to the reports here, the announcer did indeed say something (those on the hill--and I, walking between places--just didn't hear it clearly).

But the PA system in the stables were clear (not echoing), so those in the barn would have gotten the information so that when we got back, we would have known from them.

But getting to a more essential point: Do you NOT think such communication is a good idea in today's eventing environment? Do y'all NOT think it wise to communicate clearly each horse's progress and/or that a rider has fallen (Or whatever?) No, maybe that isn't reality at some events, but are you really, really saying, Erin, that it isn't a good idea (as in, "good" for the sport)? If you think it IS a good-for-the-sport idea, then why NOT work toward codifying it? Why NOT? What's wrong with positive change, people? Acknowledging what's "good" and trying to institutionalize it?

Painted Wings

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:06 PM

The other thing that needs to be remembered is that most of the workers at an event are volunteers, not professionals. You can't expect them to take a week off from work to be trained on protocol. If you want to hear what's going on, get a radio. They are $50. I try to carry one as I use it for foxhunting and on occaision have lent it to event organizers for jump judges when they were short. They come in handy. I've also used it to listen in on what is happening on XC or stadium so that I know when to get ready. If we all get demanding about how things should be done, we will kill our sport altogether. It is a difficult sport to organize with very few rewards for the organizers and volunteers.

horsecents

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:08 PM

In all the times I have competed at the Kentucky Horse Park at Horse Trials, the announcements in the stabling area are few and far between. I always thought it would be nice to hear official show time, whether or not the dressage rings are running on time and which division/rider is doing stadium.

As for educating the event rider/spectator, during the Midsouth 3-Day, Area 8 sponsored a seminar about how the Vet Box runs and what you need to do which was lauded by several officials and participants. Out of all the competitors, owners, spectators, coaches, etc. that were present at the Horse Park about 40 people attended.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:09 PM

And, ugh, BTW, jsut so my fun in debating doesn't reflect negatively on others, folks, my rider has competing in tons of events, though three star and was long listed for the team. The two of us serving as her crew are knowledgeable and she did organize us jsut fine...but NO we did NOT go over what to do if she fell. That's part of the "tragedy of errors" idea I started with, but really, short of having the same crew time after time such that, eventually, it comes up, I strongly suspect that most HUMAN riders don't cover that one either for this one-time affairs. Inhumanly perfect ones that I'm sure you'll all say are everywhere, sure.

Lastly, can't you see what I TRIED to rely in my ADMITTED rant was the entirety of it all? It WAS a "tragedy of errors" and all due primarily to, in my mind, a faulty PA system...but a "tragedy of errors" that also illustrates ways the sport can improve, too, especially if you want to improve it from the outside and/or desirous of moving-up, not just your own view.

Why are you guys so touchy? The PA system was lousy. There WAS confusion. No organizers are perfect, so how can you think maybe there were no flaws? It all added up to a fiasco for my party. Hence I named the thread the way I did. Super irony. Super reality. I think I learned from it, but I stand firm in also believing that "the sport" can learn from it, too!

Horsecents, that's EXACTLY what I mean! So you see, the need IS SEEN OUT THERE, folks. OK, so, now take the "transcript" from horsecent's activity and write it up in eventing and, tada!, the sport has shown foresight, care and a sense of responsibility toward all of its members, not just those 40 who got to that great clinic.

Simple. Valuable. Nothing to get your nickers in a twist about. Just a darn good idea in today's environment.

Gry2Yng

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Who knows what those little people might or might not know. This sport has little concern for their development, so I can't possibly be SURE unless I only use the very best! (Said sarcastically, not aimed at the sport but rather at attitudes here.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get real. This sport has the ULTIMATE concern for the development of its riders. You had no concern for your own education and showed up ignorant of what was required. NO ONE has blamed your rider for anything other than perhaps having an ignorant support crew. Every area in this country is educating 4-12 riders each every year at the NAYRC, not to mention all of the other educational activities the Young Riders and Adult Riders programs hold.

As far as the expense of running a CCI. You don't have to ride to learn something. I have ridden two. I have working the ten minute box or groomed at a CCI for over 20 horses and rider combinations. MOST of my education came through the very inexpensive oppotunity of standing around and watching, then lending a hand. Now I teach others how to run a ten minute box.

Midsouth is a well run event. I believe these organizers run three horse trials in addition to the three day. Their HT's have anywhere from 300 to 600 entries. I am betting there were over 300 horses in the CCI and the HT last weekend. People keep going back because it is well done. You are obtuse. You have no one to blame but yourself for the situation you ended up in. The rider and the horse were appropriately taken care of. You were out of the loop because of your own laziness. The lack of speakers in the barn was not the problem.

bambam

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:13 PM

You seem to arguing that your experience this weekend demonstrates that there is insufficient communication and education in eventing but it just does not add up. The general spectator does NOT need to know that a rider is not actually walking back to the barn but is in the secretary's office (because they did announce she fell). On the flip side, the people the rider is depending on to help in an emergency should NOT be uninitiated to eventing (and if you don't know who to ask for info, you are insufficiently informed to be the vet box support crew)- bottom line.
The only real complaint I hear is that you could not hear the PA system in the vet box or the stables- guess what? those areas are NOT for the general spectator but for people who should know who to ask for information. Nor does a lacking PA system in those areas mean that eventing as a whole does not coomunicate and is doomed.
Sorry- what happened to you quite simply is not indicative of deep-seated problems with eventing and the need to educate spectators and newer riders to the sport. Those problems may exist, and there are certainly things eventing can do to better itself, but using your experience this past weekend based on cirucmstances that are due largely to lack of judgment by the rider (not educating her support tema and lying to EMTs and officials) simply misses the mark.

KellyS

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:21 PM

Pwynn, I'm glad to see that you are standing up for Christan because, honestly, you haven't given me, someone who doesn't know either of you from Adam, a very good impression of her capabilities as a pro/rider. Before anyone flames me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif, I am not saying that that is the truth, it is just the impression given - lack of a good support team, no contingency plans, etc.

Personally, if I were the rider, I would be justifiably upset to have my ride/weekend dissected by hundreds of people on the internet due to an owner who may or may not know exactly what she is talking about. I am not trying to offend you Pwynn, but I would love to see what your rider has to say about this thread.

A few years ago, I rode for an owner and had much the same experience - the owner was not up to speed on eventing and while she did not come to events or groom for me (my husband who is very experienced did), sometimes her version of events was very different from mine. Needless to say, I'm happily an amateur now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:23 PM

In your initial post you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>How can it be that people waiting in the vetbox have to run around asking where their rider is after horse after horse comes home and their rider doesn't? Why the heck wasn't the PA system working in the vet area or the barns during the CCI* cross country? Why didn't the organizers send a runner or something when she was taken to the medic? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yet, somehow this has transformed into a rant against eventing "die hards" not being welcoming of the weekend warrior types.

All I can say is ... HUH? For someone who specializes in communication, you are not doing a very good job of effectively communicating what it is you want to say here.

Your rider fell on course. She then left the course, and you didn't know where to find her.

With all this garbage about protocol and placards and education and whatever, WHY is it not immediately apparent to you that if you couldn't find her, you should have just started ASKING PEOPLE? It was no one's responsibility but your OWN to find her.

Do you really expect to be given a pamphlet when you drive onto the grounds telling you how to track down your rider if she falls? Would you also like one telling you what to do if the porto-potties are out of toilet paper?

Dude, at some point, you just DEAL with it. I am all for education and bringing new people into the sport in an INFORMED way. But that has absolutely nothing to do with your situation.

You were in a situation that was disconcerting and confusing, and you seem to want to make it everyone else's fault. You know, sometimes these things just HAPPEN. Sometimes the PA doesn't work perfectly all over the showgrounds. Sometimes it rains and the footing isn't great. Sometimes a scorer messes up and you get penalties when you aren't supposed to. Sometimes a spectator stands next to the dressage arena with an umbrella and your horse loses all semblance of sanity.

So what? Those are all sucky things, but sucky things happen.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> what happened to you quite simply is not indicative of deep-seated problems with eventing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I never said they WERE "deep seated problems"! Egad, puleeeze!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> This sport has the ULTIMATE concern for the development of its riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Playing telephone again. Read my post. I was being sarcastic! I said I wasn't referring to the sport at all, but rather YOUUUUUUU (your attitudes, that is--which, as I've been trying to indicate, really are NOT NOT NOT representative of the sport at all--and that's what YOU yourself just wrote, isn't it? The sport does NOT follow the sink or swim attitude that has been expressed here--hence my suggestions aren't exactly off base. This sport DOES care, so suggestions on how and where more education and comunication is needed would probably be quite welcome in other quarters (not here, clearly!).

Now, now, don't confuse "suggestions" I've made with "criticism". Huge differences there, although some of you respond to suggestions as though they are nothing more than criticism.

adamsmom

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>but NO we did NOT go over what to do if she fell. That's part of the "tragedy of errors" idea I started with, but really, short of having the same crew time after time such that, eventually, it comes up, I strongly suspect that most HUMAN riders don't cover that one either for this one-time affairs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, most riders do discuss "contingency plans" in case things don't go the way they hope. Either way, an experienced groom will know what to do in the event of a fall.
It really just takes common sense. You shouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:29 PM

And if you had just wanted to vent about your sucky weekend and the "tragedy of errors" that ensued, I think we all would have been sympathetic. That wasn't what you did, though. You pointed fingers. You turned it into a condemnation of the eventing world, and called it half-assed and unorganized. And let's not forget that you heaped criticism on the EMTs and doctors at the ER, too.

This wasn't just a "I need to get this out of my system" vent. This was criticism of the sport. And you're surprised that so many of us stepped up to defend it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

pwynnnorman

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The only real complaint I hear is that you could not hear the PA system in the vet box or the stables- guess what? those areas are NOT for the general spectator but for people who should know who to ask for information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for at least acknowledging my only real complaint!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Nor does a lacking PA system in those areas mean that eventing as a whole does not coomunicate and is doomed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right--which is why I never said that or even imlied that.

One last time: I've also never been to a AAA hunter jumper show where there was no PA system in the stables.

Is NO ONE going to acknowledge that that IS a reasonable criticism? Cuz if you don't, it's a very telling thing. Even that rider's meeting where they dropped steeplechase was a hit-or-miss situation because of the lack of PA in the stables. Come on! That's REAL. Not newbie gripes or anything.

Erin, HONESTLY, truly, honestly, I truly thought that the title of the thread would explain the increasingly frustrated tone of statements in that first post. It was just one thing after another after another...

OK, so no one got it. I should have know that--it's happened before here and elsewhere. But I'll also not apologize for the delicates. You can read condemnation of one Kentucky hospital or one Kentucky event as condemnation of them all if you want. To me, that's a waste of breath/electronic ink. I'm sorry I rant with such realism...no, wait. No I'm not!

If anything, my problem is that I've just seen it done too much better elsewhere. Oooh, I'm jsut repeating myself. I'm going home. I'll look into those committees tomorrow.

sfir

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:37 PM

Ok - I am going to make one more statement here as now Christan is being attacked as a rider and for her desire to get on her second horse.
Firstly, Christan is an excellent rider and horseman. By wanting to get on her second horse she was doing what almost every rider has done in that situation. You are still running on adrenaline at that point and all you can think about is getting back on and going. I do not in any way believe she was acting selfishly. I also should have added at the point I told her that I was finding a medic and she was not going to be able to ride her second horse she said 'I know' and was starting to realize she was not functioning at 100% as the excitement was wearing off.
Honestly people, she is a great girl and an experienced rider and I do not feel she should be the target of any animosity in this thread.
Ruthie

horsecents

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:45 PM

I would like to encourage everyone that participates at a USEA recognized event as a competitor, spectator, volunteer, groom, official, competitor's parent, coach/instructor or owner to take the time and fill out the Event Evaluation Form. As Area Chair, I read and pass along every evaluation to the event organizer. This is your way of constructively criticizing or praising the "product" that is being sold. The Midsouth 3-Day is a part of Area 8 and we offer an On-Line Evaluation form, www.usea8.org (http://www.usea8.org). It can be totally anonymous if that is what you wish and definitely forwarded to the organizer with no identification of the sender.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
Is NO ONE going to acknowledge that that IS a reasonable criticism? Cuz if you don't, it's a very telling thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think plenty of people acknowledged that and would be happy to concede that point.

The difference, I think, is that you seem to think that this was some sort of great failing on the part of the CCI and act as though it is some kind of personal insult to you. And then when people didn't agree with you that it was this monumental huge big deal, you got all pissy at us for "circling the wagons."

People have been telling you all throughout this thread that your tone was off-putting. Rather than just saying "Sorry, I'm frustrated and I'm having a bad day," again, it's all OUR fault for not understanding you.

Am I the only one sensing a theme here? That it's always everyone else's fault?

Like I said, if the PA ain't working, put on your walking shoes, and then make a note of it on the event evaluation form. And, if that event doesn't address the problem in the future and doing some extra walking is that big of a deal to you, don't go back to that event.

For what it's worth, by far the WORST assignments I ever had for the COTH were covering the USPC championships at the KHP. I would be standing at the far, far end of the park watching the tetrathlon award ceremonies, and hear an announcement that the awards for the show jumping were starting about 2 miles away in the main rings. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It was awful. I always felt that I had to be in three places at once, I never had time to eat, and I had to walk about 10 miles a day carrying 20 pounds of camera equipment in Kentucky in August. I remember actually being in line at a little concession stand behind about 5 other people waiting to buy a bottle of water and a bag of pretzels or something... and hearing yet another announcement about yet another awards ceremony starting, and having to dash off yet again, still starving and dehydrated.

But, notice, I am not blasting the organizers for not planning the awards ceremonies better, or for having so many competitors that it required the use of the entire mammoth KHP, or for not providing me with an educational pamphlet about the benefits of renting a golf cart.

That's the difference between venting and blaming that you seem to be missing.

adamsmom

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:53 PM

Well, I know it's not MY fault 'cause I wasn't even there. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
Or maybe it is my fault BECAUSE I wasn't there...
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Oh, go ahead, blame me. Everyone else does.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

KellyS

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:56 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bambam

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
[QUOTE]
You can read condemnation of one Kentucky hospital or one Kentucky event as condemnation of them all if you want. To me, that's a waste of breath/electronic ink. I'm sorry I rant with such realism...no, wait. No I'm not!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your first post may have been directed at that event, but your subsequent posts clearly were trying to make this a larger eventing as a whole issue or poblem. To say otherwise is simply backtracking. feel free to do so http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
And yes- a PA system in all areas would have been nice, but I do not believe its lack is anything less than an inconvenience rather than a reflection of horrible lack of communication and a terrible event (even if it is limited to this one).
To clarify my earlier statement about the rider- I don't know her and I do not doubt she is an excellent horseperson and I did not mean to imply otherwise. I do, however, think that you can be an excellent horseperson and show a lack of jugdment. I do think it is a lack of judgment to not tell EMTs everything just so that you can keep going (if that is what she did). It is a common lack of judgment but one nonetheless IMHO (and I say this as someone who has made that bad judgment call- I told EMts I was fine to continue and did not mention the blurry spots in my vision- I was not going prelim, but it was not my smartest moment http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). I also think the crew in the 10 minute box should be better educated. Doing these things does not make her a bad horseperson or a person or a bad anything for that matter. I just wanted to clarify that- I was not intending to bash the rider, and I wanted to make sure my post was not interpreted that way.

HARRIGAN

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:22 PM

I SPEND A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME AS AN ORGANIZER WORKING ON SAFETY ISSUES - AS I READ YOUR POST MY FIRST THOUGH - WHERE WERE YOU - WHO WOULD GO TO A CCI TO SEE THEIR HORSE RUN AND STAY IN THE BARN? HAVING COCKTAILS?

ANYWAY DON'T MISLEAD EVERYONE - THE HOSPITAL IS AT THE END OF THE DRIVEWAY.

AS THE SPOUSE OF A RIDER SERIOUSLY INJURED ON COURSE OUR SPORT HAS MORE DOCUMENTATION, PREPARATION AND GOOD OLE PARAMEDIC SUPPORT THAN ANY OTHER SPORT OUT THERE AND DON'T COMPARE THE HUNTER RING WITH EVENTING - THEY CAN'T EVEN GET THE HELMUT THING PASSED LET ALONE MANDATORY EMT CARE AND EVERY HORSE TRIAL AND CCI.

I'M SORRY YOUR RIDER WAS HURT - BUT IT MIGHT BEHOVE YOU TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR PAYING FOR - THE NEXT TIME YOU MIGHT GET OUT ON COURSE INSTEAD OF WAITING 45 MINUTES TO FIGURE OUT THAT YOUR RIDER WAS MISSING ON A 6 MINUTE COURSE.

RAyers

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:28 PM

Harrigan,

Do you think Eventing can get the "Helmut thing..." passed? Will all events now be required to have a Helmut present before the show starts? Is this another attempt for the Euorpeans to change the face of American sport? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Reed

UNCeventer

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:36 PM

interesting how more details seem to come out of the woodwork...

HARRIGAN

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:45 PM

HEY RAEYERS - JUST CAUSE I HAVE AN OPINION DOSN'T MEAN I CAN SPELL - BUT WE ALWAYS HAVE A HELMUT AROUND.

*In Your Dreams*

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:52 PM

I believe the original poster had valid points and should not be slamed because she stated her honest opinion. Horse people are so touchy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

3dazey

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:56 PM

That damn Helmut was announcing at the last event I went to and I couldn't hear anything in the stable area either!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Or maybe it was just that German accent...

By the way, Erin, you are my HERO (INE). I'm still laughing..."Dude, at some point JUST DEAL WITH IT!" God that was FUNNY! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

annikak

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:19 PM

Erin-

Gotta laugh (and cry) at the USPC mention. My SO was the asst organizer of festival, and I gotta say...I have never run so much! We could not even keep up with the "festivities!" And talk about things getting confused...I always swear that I will NEVER go again...and yet...he is on a call right now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif And you know that I will be there! But a great example of how communication with such a large group can get botched. But I am sorry for your running...hopefully someone gave you water!

Robby Johnson

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:21 PM

Oh praise Jesus! The day I've been waiting for has arrived ... Helmut Lang is doing riding apparel now! I cannot wait! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Robby

annikak

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:21 PM

Also, I hope that everyone knows that Christan did her BEST and did what most of us would have done in that situation. No blame to anyone there. She is gutsy and tough- like riders tend to be.

tle

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>WE DUMMIES ARE ON THE INCREASE...are you going to ignore that fact? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reminds me of a favorite quote of mine which I think is more or less applicable as a retort to your statement....
you can never build anything foolproof because god will always build a better fool.

So what you're asking is for us to dumb down the sport for those who won't take the personal responsibility to increase their own knowledge? Hey if that works, maybe the NBA will lower the hoops to 5' for those of us who are vertically challenged as well!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

RAyers

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:25 PM

Nobody here is faulting the rider, but Christan's decision resulted in a communication problem between owner and rider. Thus pwynnnorman's assesment of the problem is beyond anything the event staff could do. Nobody has question Christan's guts or anything else, but they have used her possible decison to ride a second horse as an example of how rider's can make bad choices due to adrenaline rather than thought.

Reed

tle

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:37 PM

Hey ya'll... we did have a Helmut on teh grounds!! I almost ran into him several times while he was cooling a horse and I was trying (yet again) to get a temp!! Helmut Graetz (sp?)... great guy! So Reed, we're covered!

Harrigan... 1) Reed was joking, 2) typing in all caps is like yelling. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bambam

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tle:
you can never build anything foolproof because god will always build a better fool.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I have never heard that- I love it. I may need to make that my new sig line- can I steal it from you?

annikak

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:45 PM

Rayers- exactly.

Helmut is great! He had the nov xc running like clockwork- as much as Novice can be... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"You- get over here NOW! If I don't see you, I don't know you're here!" Spoken like a true warm-up guru! hehehe!

baileygreyhorse

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:58 PM

After wading through 7 pages of this slop, I only have one word to add, although it's been said before.
VOLUNTEER!!!
One day as a fence judge at a HT will show you why this happened. The control-guy knows all and reports what he knows and can see. But he's not going to report it twice. When falls happen, they are reported, but not discussed on the PA.
All you had to do was find someone with a radio and ask them to check with control to find your rider. As a participant in this sport it is YOUR responsibility to know how things like this work. The best way to learn this is to VOLUNTEER!

wanderlust

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
Wanderlust, at fault for WHAT? WHEN did I say they were at fault for anything other than having a crappy PA system that left us clueless IN COMPARISON TO OTHER EVENTS!

I described awkward circumstances that arose. PEOPLE, WHEN WHEN WHEN did I start "blaming" anyone (except for the communication problem)? WHEN? AND FOR WHAT (except for the communication problem)?

This is like playing telephone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
pwynn, I was referring to your uncomfortableness with feeling *you* needed to take Christan to the hospital, as you intimated that whoever was supposed to be treating her dropped the ball and left you, an "absentee owner", to make sure she received appropriate medical treatment.

This is not like playing telephone. When an overwhelming majority of folks (who, yes, *are* representative of the competitors, as there are quite a few of us actively competing) are telling you there isn't a problem, and you keep insisting there is yet you haven't taken the time to ask or read up on how real 3-days actually run, it makes me believe that YOU have the problem.

Yeesh. And apologies for a horrible run-on sentence.

Jamie

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:10 PM

Haven’t read the entire thread so this has probably been mentioned but
it seems to me that the responsibility of the organizer must be to the
competitor and the horse. Procedures are in place to design and build
an appropriate course, provide judges to be sure the competition is fair, and have emergency people to provide assistance wherever necessary. Their job is not uncomplicated.

Our job, as rider/coach/parent is to know the rules and understand our responsibilities. In this partcular case, post one of your team
members or friends near a speaker or radio and follow your rider.
Remember that the dressage steward is not even responsible for your
whereabouts. They are only there to be of assistance if you have a
question. If there is a problem on course, you may hear that a rider is
down or simply that there is a hold on course but you will never hear a
blow by blow account of the problem on the PA system. The fact is,
there would be no way of knowing where every parent is located in the
event complex. The primary concern of the organizer is to assist the
horse and rider after a fall. That concern goes for all horses and riders.

Volunteer folks are an important part of eventing but qualified medical
professionals are always a radio call away at any recognized event.
Mishaps / glitches are a part of life. All this can be frustrating but, it's good to know your daughter is well and hopefully ready for the next event.

Heather

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:01 PM

I hate to say this, but I kinda sorta see what pwynn is talking about. Did she go about it the wrong way, and could her appraoch use some work? Yes, BUT . . .

As I was packing up to leave after the Morven CCI*, a woman and horse moved into to one of the stalls being vacated in our barn at the park. She was from a far away place, and was spending the night before driving home the next. I was making small talk as I packed the trailer, and I asked her the obligatory question about how the weekend had gone. The horse was her daughter's, and it was the 16 year-old daughter and 8 year old horse's first CCI*. They had jumped clean, but Mom and Dad, who had been crewing for her in the box, and the kid hadn't understood exactly how it worked, and the kid had ended up 45 seconds late going out of the box.

Kid had a regular instructor at home, who couldn't come to the show. Mom and Dad were not horse people, but were there to help out becaue no one else from "home" was available. Obviously the kid had been well prepared in many respects, becasue they had jumped around, and the horse had finished in good shape. But clearly, there was a significant knowledge and ability gap present.

My interpretation fo what wynn is saying is that while in a perfect world, our sport would be filled with top notch horseman, who have a complete understanding of the sport and it's rules and traditions, that is simply no longer the reality and is becoming less so every day.

To put a finer point on it, the damn dummies are already here folks, so now what do we do? Me personally, I can't imagine putting myself in that situation unless I was 100% educated and briefed. But that's me. Not being me isn't a crime, LOL.

I had an internet argument with someone a few months ago, who believed that riding as a sport and endeavor had been completely ruined by removing it from the purview of the military, including women, and allowing it to become a hobby, past time, or a place for amateurs. He advocated a "city on the hilltop" appraoch where young men who were serious about the art and craft of riding,would be accepted into special schools, where they would be molded over many years, with no thought to their enjoyment or fun, only to their serious scholarship.

This person was unwilling to acknowledge that that reality of riding became extinct somewhere around 1970, and that women riders, amateru sportsman, and commercial riders making teams was here to stay, and that riding, for most, was now about fun, first and foremost. He was so stuck in his ideal, that he could no longer see the forest for the trees.

While this is an extreme example, and I think that eventing is WAY more progressive than this, I think wynn's general point was to say that as a sport, we need to start thinking about how to deal with the uneducated masses that will become a greater reality in our sport (and while we the peons can debate whether or not growing the sport is a good or bad thing all we want, it's pretty clear to me that the decision has already been made for us--the USEA and the USEF are all about growth, period. We are going to become a commercial sport whether we want it or not.)

I'm not going to comment on the specific incident, because i wasn't there and have no idea what really went on. But as to the general concept she was discussing, I do sort of see her point.

JAGold

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Heather:
They had jumped clean, but Mom and Dad, who had been crewing for her in the box, and the kid hadn't understood exactly how it worked, and the kid had ended up 45 seconds late going out of the box.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And she will never make that mistake again. --Jess

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> AS I READ YOUR POST MY FIRST THOUGH - WHERE WERE YOU - WHO WOULD GO TO A CCI TO SEE THEIR HORSE RUN AND STAY IN THE BARN? HAVING COCKTAILS? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Harrigan, I am pretty sure that the reason she was waiting in the barn is that she is the owner of the SECOND horse Christian was going to ride.

She was presumably waiting WITH her horse, to help with the switch from horse 1 to horse 2.

Kritter

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sfir:
Ok - I am going to make one more statement here as now Christan is being attacked as a rider and for her desire to get on her second horse.
Firstly, Christan is an excellent rider and horseman. By wanting to get on her second horse she was doing what almost every rider has done in that situation. You are still running on adrenaline at that point and all you can think about is getting back on and going. I do not in any way believe she was acting selfishly. I also should have added at the point I told her that I was finding a medic and she was not going to be able to ride her second horse she said 'I know' and was starting to realize she was not functioning at 100% as the excitement was wearing off.
Honestly people, she is a great girl and an experienced rider and I do not feel she should be the target of any animosity in this thread.
Ruthie <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know I'm new here, but I just wanted to back Ruthie up (for the record, I was a volunteer at this show this past weekend as well). Having had concussions in the past it was not untilI had had a couple of days rest that I truly realized how impaired I was after I had that concussion and short-term memory loss - I needed others there to tell me not to do things because I was too out of it. That's why the rider was checked out by a medic first and people should stay with you the first few hours after you have a concussion. I cannot imagine how hard it must of been for Christian to not get back on that first horse and not get on her second horse. Unfortunately, that's part of the sport - you take chances.

Kritter

(edited to add)

tbpalsx2

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:50 PM

{Egad! My friends--potential Connor sponsors, in fact--were equally appalled. How the heck can one get SUPPORT for a talented horse when it seems that all he's doing is competing in some half-assed sport where people risk their necks and no one knows what to do when something goes wrong? I'm NOT a hands-on owner. I haven't watched Con compete in over two years (I went to AEC, but I didn't watch him go). I seriously doubt I'm that unusual or that Christan's situation--competing alone or with very little help--is that unusual either...right?}

Wrong!!! As the owner of several event horses I can tell you my riders do not ride at events alone or with little help. As the owner I want my rider to take help along,a friend, a groom,10 minute box help etc. especially at a 3 day event. At Midsouth when our CCI* and our other level riders ,Prelim and novice were on course the friends, family or grooms were aware of how long it takes to complete the course. If someone did not return in a reasonable time we found out what was going on by going to anyone with a radio and asking. luckliy a few of them were just slow on course. And at events I attend I am not at the stable or ten minute box waiting. I am out on course sometimes with friends or other owners to observe our riders. I begin to question "where is my rider?" if they do not jump certain fences or return to the finish line in a period of time. This weekend one of our prelim riders had a fall and although we did not see it or hear about it on the PA when she did not jump the fences on the end of the course and return to the vet box we asked a jump judge where number so and so was. We learned she had a fall and several of our group went immediately and running to the jump where she fell. We saw someone with a golf cart and bummed a ride. She was not seriously hurt but did land on a rock and get a nasty cut. The EMTS had attended to her cut and our grooms and other riders helped her and her horse back to the stable area and then family took her to the hospital for stitches. I am very glad Christan was not seriously hurt in her fall. I am glad you were there to assist in the ten minute box. I am just surprised that you don't watch your horse go and would not know when to expect your horse and rider to return to the vet box or complete the course. Perhaps I am naive about owners but I have been at Rolex, Foxhall, advanced Horse Trials and CCIs and I see owners out on course nervous and excited about their riders and horses. I would never wait for the organizers and volunteers to come looking for me if my riders have a problem. In fact how would they even know who I am to seek me out. We all go to events well aware of the dangers and that is the reason I want to know what is going on out on course from start to finish. I have gone to other events where there is no PA in the stabling area. When this happens we just make sure we go somewhere we can hear or see. Trust me I have planted myself right next to a jump judge where I can hear what is going on at the fences I cannot see. I hope you will not let this one situation sour you or sponsors to the sport. Also Christan will not be the first or the last rider who will try to get on a second horse when hurt. These riders get so caught up in the ride they will just keep going if possible and sometimes when impossible. And they will try to ride even when the EMTS have tried to keep them for observation. This is part of their dedication and love for what they do. Crazy I know. May of the Cothers make a good point in that learning what to expect and taking action if you think something is not right is fine. I have never had someone refuse to help me when I have asked about my horse on course.I also know the fear when someone you know does not return to the finish line because of a fall so I hope your long rant was partly based on your fear and not a comdenation of our sport.

california rider

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:16 PM

ok I am blind from reading some 7 pages

I am confused first by the fact you would wait 45 minutes for you rider? WHY? I had trouble reading past that.

Secondly after reading the post from the woman who helped your rider and said she would not let her ride the second horse that this was a miscommunication as they let her leave on foot which is why there was not a big deal (bells, whistles and additional announcements) made as there might have been had the event been stopped had the injury been significant to warrant a ambulance at the scene of the fall.

WHY IN THE name of mergatroid did you take her to the hospital. ANYONE AND EVERYONE knows you get better service at the hospital when you arrive in a ambulance. I would have had a ambulance take her.

I am sorry to say I think you were ill prepared to cope with this emergency. It bothers you as you felt helpless and the adage that those who fail to prepare (becoming educated about protocol, like not waiting 45 min and knowing her number) prepare to fail!

The event did not let you down, you let yourself down and now through a series of diatribes are trying to justify your anger, embarrassment and feeling of being helpless in a emergency. We have all been there but tend to blame ourselves not other people. Have some pride take some reasonability here!

And I hope your Potential sponsors are not reading all this as it reeks of being a bit unstable as all too many "stable" people are in the horse world.

good evening.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:43 PM

I don't dispute that Wynn might have had some good points or constructive criticism. But her post was also loaded with -- I think -- overly harsh criticism where it wasn't warranted.

She said she was "unimpressed" with the eventing world. She was "appalled" about the organization of the event, called volunteers "clueless," and cited a "dreadful lack of communication under conditions that could have resulted in real tragedy."

That's blowing a valid criticism -- that the PA couldn't be heard in the barns -- WAY out of proportion. When you do that, you risk alienating the people who can help implement changes, and there's the possibility that your completely valid message will get lost.

I think Wynn is confusing the "live and learn" message I think a lot of us are trying to get across with "sink or swim." Most of us have learned how the system works at events and have explained how Wynn could have found the information she needed. At the event, I'm sure most volunteers, spectators, grooms, whatever, would have done the same thing. That's education, folks. And eventers are famous for helping each other and spreading the knowledge around. Like, "Hey, watch the turn after #7, the footing is slick."

What I, personally, have an issue with is the fact that blame has been thrown around. Like it was somehow this huge, egregious wrongdoing that Wynn didn't know where her rider was immediately. That something needed to be changed, that the sport is heading in the wrong direction, whatever.

Hey, Wynn... now you know, right? Yeah, so you were aggravated for a little while, but everyone is fine and you'll know how to better handle it next time. That's living and learning in action.

And you can nicely mention on your event evaluation that it would be really helpful if the PA system were improved for next time... but thanks ever so much for putting on this lovely event! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Synrgystyk

Oct. 26, 2004, 04:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by california rider:
WHY IN THE name of mergatroid did you take her to the hospital. ANYONE AND EVERYONE knows you get better service at the hospital when you arrive in a ambulance. I would have had a ambulance take her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily true and it's this misconception that gets ambulances used like taxicabs. From what Pwynn has said about Christan's head injury, she should've gone by ambulance in case something more serious happened on the way. But if you think going in by ambulance is the way to get "better service" at the hospital, you're in for a quick trip to the waiting room.

Ambulances and emergency personnel are for emergencies. Please don't use us as a taxi service just because you think you'll get seen quicker at the ER. You won't. And transporting your butt to the waiting room might just mean that we're unavailable for a true emergency call.

Lorree

Heather

Oct. 26, 2004, 05:05 AM

You know, I think it's my personality to be uninterested in he said, she said, which is mmost of this thread. When i read the first post i rolled my eyes,and didn't respond, because yes,my basic answer would have been something along the lines of "doo-doo happens", "learn from your mistakes" and "glad everyone was OK." I/we have no idea what really occured there--it's between wynn, Christan, and the event and EMT's. So why argue about it?

But when it took a turn towards the "general conecpts/food for thought" vein, I became more interested and responded--because THOSE are things worth discussing. But, it seems most people would rather argue about specifics they'll never really know about.

This "incident" is a dumb thing to argue about. The greater thoughts about the changing face of our sport are not.

JMHO.

KellyS

Oct. 26, 2004, 05:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Heather:
Kid had a regular instructor at home, who couldn't come to the show. Mom and Dad were not horse people, but were there to help out becaue no one else from "home" was available. Obviously the kid had been well prepared in many respects, becasue they had jumped around, and the horse had finished in good shape. But clearly, there was a significant knowledge and ability gap present.

My interpretation fo what wynn is saying is that while in a perfect world, our sport would be filled with top notch horseman, who have a complete understanding of the sport and it's rules and traditions, that is simply no longer the reality and is becoming less so every day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, even in this situation, I don't think the burden of responsibility is on the USEA or the organizers to impart this knowledge. My question would be: Why wasn't this kid working with a knowledgeable pro or mentor at her first CCI* or at least have a knowledgeable vet box team? Eventers are famous for being do-it-yourselfers and believe me, that is why I like the sport so much! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif But, competing at a * is a whole different ball of wax, so to speak. It would be like riding in the Medal finals without a trainer or coach present. Even the top event riders have coaches and an experienced team present.

Believe me, the last thing I want is for eventing to go the way of h/j land where everyone needs a trainer holding their hand. I have never had a coach at an event and I don't even train with an eventer; however, with the amount of time and money it takes to do a real three day, I would think having experienced help on hand can make the difference between having a successful competition or a not-so-successful competition (which can happen even when you have all the right help available.

And in turn, a young and/or inexperienced rider is able to become a top notch horseperson as they learn from those that already are. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SBH

Oct. 26, 2004, 06:27 AM

Okay...it took me a while to get back in this discussion but...the reality of the whole situation is that PA systems at events for the most part, stink. Its impossible to run wire all over the horse park so everyone can hear everything clearly. I do feel this is a weakness. I hate being in the barn area and not know what is going on in the other areas, but I deal with it because the other good things about the horse park and its events outweigh the bad. I am not saying that there are things that could be improved in the eventing world - improvements can be made in everything. The problem I had with the original post was that the sport was being blamed for someone's ignorance. Yes, we eventers get protective of our sport when people start critisizing it. We have enough critics out there trying to change eventing "for the better". If you truly are interested in helping the sport improve, volunteer, get on your local association, and educate yourself as to how things work before you start attacking us.

Oh yea, and by the way, if Con gets to Rolex, the PA system isn't much better so you better get used to searching out information for yourself.

california rider

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:02 AM

I am not suggesting every tom dick and harry should get in a ambulance. When a head injury and memory loss is involved having the person in your car is just silly.

This weekend there was a head injury that also involved a seizure. Imagine how fun that would have been for her in her car on the way there. And watching her friend bleed and convulse. Better safe than sorry and paying the ambulance bill. NOt seeing this as a glorified taxi service.

I made a assumption that many of you would know what I meant but since it is apparent that I must state things in black and white. I stand by using the ambulance for TRUE emergency situations like head injuries. They bring a second out to take the person so there is always one available should another fall occur while first is in transport.

horsemad!

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:08 AM

Just a quick question… some of you suggested getting radios so you could listen in to what’s happening on course. I’m pretty sure this is against the rules with Ontario Horse Trials Association… does the same not ring true in the States? Just curious http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

JAGold

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by california rider:
This weekend there was a head injury that also involved a seizure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At Ram Tap? I hope everyone's ok. (Now I'm worried -- would you mind sending me a PT about who got hurt?) --Jess

DizzyMagic

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:16 AM

Back in the realm of the hypothetical - i.e. not speaking about this event in particular - I think the refrain "Volunteer" is not going to work. Yes it's a good way to learn the ropes. No, the syndicate owners of horses are not going to do this - they are, in fact, going to be wandering around clueless at the big events. Suggesting that they need to put tons of effort into learning this sport before they get involved doesn't really acknowledge the nature of the way the sport is going. It seems to be moving away from grassroots and toward...something else. Maybe that is not a good thing. Maybe it is. But it is changing.

Just my thoughts...

Emily

JAGold

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DizzyMagic:
No, the syndicate owners of horses are not going to do this - they are, in fact, going to be wandering around clueless at the big events. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. But if they just want to watch, then they don't need to know how to find the vet in the 10 minute box. They need a good program, clear explanations of rules, divisions, scoring, and awards, a comfortable place from which to watch, and good interactions with people in the equestrian community.

Owners who want to be involved -- who want to groom -- do need instruction from their riders.

The suggestion that people volunteer to learn more about how three days work was aimed at riders or those who WANT to know how to groom. --Jess

SBH

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:27 AM

Then if the owners are not going to volunteer to learn then it should be their rider's job to show them the ropes. I know riders are busy and have their minds on more important things than hand-holding the sponsors but they can assign one of their friends or students to help. It is beyond my belief that you can expect the organizers of an event or the USCTA to take this on. If an owner isn't going to take the time to volunteer or get involved enough on their own to learn what goes on, then how do you expect an organization to teach them? Do you really believe they would attend a clinic or read a book? I seriously doubt it. I think owners are wonderful people - to spend the amount of money they do, without even riding the horse themselves, but if they do not want to learn the rules of the road then they should stay in the background and let the people that know what is going on do their job.

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Heather:
... But when it took a turn towards the "general conecpts/food for thought" vein, I became more interested and responded--because THOSE are things worth discussing. But, it seems most people would rather argue about specifics they'll never really know about.

This "incident" is a dumb thing to argue about. The greater thoughts about the changing face of our sport are not.

JMHO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree the incident is a dumb thing to argue about it, but I think the reason people are still discussing is that she has used this one ridiculously straightforward incident and used it as a launching pad to go off on the nature of the sport... most people are looking at this intellectual leap that she has made and are thinking "you got this from THAT?!?!"

Janet

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by horsemad!:
Just a quick question… some of you suggested getting radios so you could listen in to what’s happening on course. I’m pretty sure this is against the rules with Ontario Horse Trials Association… does the same not ring true in the States? Just curious http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
US rules
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Article 1715. Radios and Cellular Phones.
The use of a radio or cellular phone while competing is forbidden, under penalty of
disqualification. Any other use while on the competition grounds by competitors, trainers, or
members of the competitor’s support group, is subject to restriction by the technical
delegate and the president of the ground jury. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>SO if you have an actual RADIO, you need to clear it with the TD and/or GJ.

The intent of this rule is to prevent "unauthorized assistance", not to prevent "listening in" on the communications net. So it would probably be approved.

Note that, technically, you have to check with the TD before you are allowed to use a cell phone!

But a scanner is just a receiver, and not a transmitter. And US communications law is VERY CLEAR that anyone can "listen in" on radio transmitions.

Janet

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DizzyMagic:
Back in the realm of the hypothetical - i.e. not speaking about this event in particular - I think the refrain "Volunteer" is not going to work. Yes it's a good way to learn the ropes. No, the syndicate owners of horses are not going to do this - they are, in fact, going to be wandering around clueless at the big events. Suggesting that they need to put tons of effort into learning this sport before they get involved doesn't really acknowledge the nature of the way the sport is going.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly.

Two different roles. Spectator/ hands-off owner is one role. "Support team" is a different role.

You can be one, the other, or both.

A The role of spectator/hands off owner doesn't require a lot of advance training/briefing/planning.

B The role of support team requires a LOT of advance training, briefing, and planning.

THIS problem came about becuase someone who came prepared for role A found herself thrust into role B without the requisite preparation.

But I don't see how this can possibly be the fault of the organizers or "the sport".

In fact, the only remedy I can see would actually be very counterproductive- keeping the unprepared restricted to "spectator areas".

DizzyMagic

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:49 AM

I see what you're saying Janet, but the owners I've been involved with tend to blur the lines - they're hands off unless they want to be hands on. I'm not saying I know what to do about it (or even that there is anything to be done) - just that the idea of more and more clueless "owners" traipsing around events seems worth discussing.

Emily

tecumsea

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:18 AM

Yesterday I wanted to responed but could not. (work damnit) The solutions to the problem are all around you. Your rider is a very good rider but left alot untouched in the event of what to do. Unfortunately the way to learn that is to go through what you did.
It may be benificial for you to observe what others do at the top levels even when things go wrong so that you may be further educated and not mad because the education was not handed to you.
This I feel is the best result.

EventerAJ

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:19 AM

Phew. Last time I checked this topic it was at 2 pages...now 8. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I don't think I can add much after Erin, tle, and Jess, but I've already typed it out anyway.

I feel that riders are pretty much responsible for everything they can control, specifically THEIR knowledge, and the knowledge of their associates (owners, grooms, helpers, family, the horse, the dog, etc). It is up to the rider to have a competent trainer and be prepared for the event. It is certainly NOT a sin to be inexperienced, so long as you have experienced help. That is how you learn. Event organizers and officials are not instructors or teachers. They have specific jobs to make the event run smoothly; almost all of them are certainly willing to answer relevant questions, but that is not their sole purpose in life. When you take the SAT, the exam proctors aren't going to give you the answers-- you're expected to know.

And as for PA systems: I trailer in to most of my events. If I want to know what's going on, I hike to the ring. Sure it's work, it takes an extra 20 minutes, but that's how it goes. Being aware of what's going on, without travelling a mile (KHP) is definitely a luxury I appreciate. Usually xc is very well announced at KHP (providing you are near a speaker, of course).

Synrgystyk

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by california rider:
When a head injury and memory loss is involved having the person in your car is just silly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're absolutely right. Head injuries are true emergencies and should be treated as such. Head injury patients need to be transported to a hospital in an ambulance.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> This weekend there was a head injury that also involved a seizure. Imagine how fun that would have been for her in her car on the way there. And watching her friend bleed and convulse. Better safe than sorry and paying the ambulance bill. NOt seeing this as a glorified taxi service. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, you're right. This was a situation where ambulance transport was necessary. It's a little difficult to treat a head injury/seizure patient in the back of a car.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I made a assumption that many of you would know what I meant but since it is apparent that I must state things in black and white. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a little difficult (and often dangerous http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) to infer meanings from BB postings. Assumptions either way can get you into trouble. But your original statement was that you'll get better service if you arrive by ambulance; you didn't limit it to "true" emergencies.

I've been on far too many "emergency" calls that origninated because someone assumed that a patient automatically gets better/quicker attention from the ER when he/she arrives by ambulance. Thanks for clarifying your original statement. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Lorree

pwynnnorman

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:25 AM

WHOA! This thread is still alive? Gee, thanks for continuing to consider these things. I'm posting this just out of respect for those still discussing. Alas, I jsut don't have time today to join in, although I'm dying with curiousity to find out what has transpired! Later!

Anne FS

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:00 AM

Yep, I'm still playing. pwyn, you wrote: Why are you so touchy?

We're not, but since you think many of us are, I'll tell you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

1. half-assed sport, nobody knows what to do, appalled, dreadful, fiasco, unimpressed, etc. - yeah, that pretty much did it.

So that's one.

2. by saying things like thank you for considering these things (and other similar things you've said) I get the impression that you are pleased that your thread has started an education revolution in eventing, when in reality all the things you suggested, pamphlets, books, educational seminars, protocols, standards, and on and on, ALREADY EXIST and have existed. And guess what, people are taking advantage of them and now it's like because you called attention to this issue in the sport you're making it all happen when the reality is it's been there all along. In addition, you've said that although eventing sees the need to educate, we on the BB don't, and that simply isn't true.

It really seems as though you haven't heard a word that was said unless it came from yourself. I really mean this in a friendly manner, but really, that's how you seem in this instance.

2ndyrgal

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:04 AM

The only odd thing I noticed was in the CCI (?)show jumping portion, they got the scores bolloxed up from 3rd on down and dropped everyone a place AFTER they had presented the ribbons. With all the rain they had, it's amazing that they could hold it at all.

Gry2Yng

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:36 AM

I would really like to have all of the porta-potties wired for sound at Horse Trials/Three Days because it seems my dressage score is always announced when I am unable to hear it due to the call of nature. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anne FS

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:35 PM

As long as it's not 2-way sound!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

tle

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:43 PM

I dunno Anne... I wouldn't mind 2-way sound if it meant I could ASK for toilet paper delivery and someone would bring it as needed! (seeing as how it never fails that they are out). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Anne FS

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:59 PM

ROTFLMAO! Good one, tle! Although I always assume there won't be any tp, plus I try never to use those things as the day wears on - just too nasty!!

As to the PA system, I love the pony club PA periodic announcements: "The official rally time is XXX" to help keep everyone (or at least those who can hear the PA) on track!

eventer girl

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:29 PM

It is sad to see what this board has come to.

You guys are eventers COME ON! I'm dissappointed.

And to that matter i would think the moderator at some point SHOULD HAVE stepped in...but rather was just as involved. Disappointing.

Erin

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:54 PM

"Involved"? Yes, I was "involved" in disagreeing with the original poster. Last I checked, I'm still allowed to have an opinion, even if I am the moderator.

You're "sad" and "disappointed" why, exactly? Because everyone didn't agree? It'd be a pretty boring world if we did...

horsecents

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:55 PM

I'm surprised it's not listed in the Omnibus under other information: Bring TP _ Porta Johns run out of it on first day. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

RAyers

Oct. 26, 2004, 03:28 PM

I can see it now, the next time I am working a CCI or HT:

"In the schooling area, 25 is up with 24 one away, 78 two away,...."
"Attention in the barns, we are 30 minutes from completing the Preliminary so Training riders need to start wandering up."
"Attention in the porta-john, toilet paper supply is sufficient for 2 hours so be sure you get things done now."

Reed

tbpalsx2

Oct. 26, 2004, 03:54 PM

I am really upset that gry2young wants the PA to work in the porta pottie. Gee when I don't want to know what is going on out on course due to my nerves for my riders I always lie and say I have to go to the restroom just as they head to the start box. That way I can be a big chicken and not hear a thing. Later I return to the finish area or stabling just in time to make a big deal out of how awesome their XC ride was. Of course it is sad that I get so worked up and excited that I have to escape.At some shows the porta pottie is the only place i cannot hear the PA system. Guess we need a new thread to address "XC spectator, owner,show mom, friend anxiety".

RAyers

Oct. 26, 2004, 04:00 PM

Ooo, another idea!

How aobut radios in the porta-john? Then you can have the 2-way communication people want. Of course we will need to have a Helmut to be the WC Steward and make sure everything goes smoothly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Reed

Heather

Oct. 26, 2004, 04:15 PM

Ok you guys ARE KILLING ME, with the TP announcements! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

BTW, I'm not necesarily saying in my example of the family, that their mistake was someone else's responsibility, but rather an additional examplethat even withthe best intentions, things can be missed, go wrong, what have you. Having a zillion time penalties on cross-coutnry hurts nothing but your pride, but it's still food for thought (and actually, IMHO, a great advertisement for the training three day).

I think a little navel contemplation is always helpful for any endeavor. That's what pwyn started here. After gazing at at our navels, a huge percentage of people seem to feel that everything is just fine and nothing to consider further. So that's fine. But I don't think we need to leap all over her for suggesting or starting the navel gazing to begin with.

tle

Oct. 26, 2004, 05:29 PM

Ok, it wasn't a "porta potty" per se, but I will admit Reed that I HAVE made an announcement or 2 from the jon (it's a love hate relationship with the wireless mic)... as well as answered more than a few questions on the radios. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

adamsmom

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:21 PM

You guys are scaring me.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

GatoGordo

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:35 PM

Any event groom who has done her research would know ahead of time to bring her own roll of TP. I really don't see why we need to waste PA time with such frivolities.

RAyers

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:43 PM

I admit I have answered plenty of radio calls while, "indisposed" in temporary facilities out on XC. I have even made barn calls from such locations as High Prairie has the barn PA directly connected to a specific radio channel.

See folks, tle and I showing you what REALLY happens behind the scenes to make sure competitions run smoothly! I'm sorry but pwynnnorman has no idea what we go through to get things done.

Reed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

horsemad!

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:03 AM

The thing I find difficult about using the *ahem* facilities while announcing and controlling is trying not to drop your mic, one of the many radios or clip boards, or your pen into the biffy! I’m glad to hear (I think http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) that tle and Rayers also go the extra mile to keep the show running and take their gear into the loo with them. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

pwynnnorman

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:09 AM

I'm baacck!

I think this is the phrase that got "y'all" going:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> How the heck can one get SUPPORT for a talented horse when it seems that all he's doing is competing in some half-assed sport where people risk their necks and no one knows what to do when something goes wrong? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll not apologize for those words, no matter how you hurl the insults. IMPRESSION is important to people outside the sport and, whether you want to agree or acknowledge it or not, "outside the sport" is just as important as inside the sport.

I was NOT calling the sport half-assed, I said that it SEEMED as if it were--and I'm telling you, folks, that that WAS the impression my companions had. You wanna tell them to just up a leave? One was a high level manager at the IRS. Another a high level manager at a major research firm. Two others were the owners of one of Con's siblings.

And here's the thing: this wasn't just some podunk event out in nowheresville. This was (well, at least it was billed by me--my fault for sure) a "big deal" kind of event. My friends were left to wander around or sit in the barns after I left because they sure as heck didn't know what else was going on. (Yeah, they can read, but y'know, most of them have been to dressage and h-j shows, and like me, they're accustomed to hearing and seeing what's going on, not just having to decipher it. Not important to you? Well, if you're like the decisionmakers--and I don't think you are--then the growth of this sport is really in question (and again, I don't think it is--I think, like in h-j, the sport trying to grow beyond its "we're only volunteers, so you can't blame us" roots into something a bit more established--at some levels at least).

Nope, folks, you can be as snide as you want to but 1.) having a crappy PA system (are you telling me KHP has a HISTORY of crappy PA systems?) and 2.) not having (or, yes as I implied, having but not using--a la the armbands, which YOU FOLKS poo poo'ed, if I recall correctly--a protocol for dealing with a head injury in a sport where such probably isn't uncommon (not a broken bone, but a head-not-thinking-straight injury) is NOT IMPRESSIVE.

Yup, folks, I brought my friends to be impressed and they weren't. Not by Christan or her fall or even any confusion directly involving that (I stated, the gray horse thing was OUR fault, after all), but rather for the lack of communication and support that, yes, THEY, not just I, perceived. Hate me for it? Hate THEM for it? Go right ahead. They aren't your clients, after all, and maybe you don't operate in that vein anyway. Fine for you, but maybe not so for others whom you do not represent.

Lisamarie8

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:25 AM

Pywnn,

If your "clients" weren't impressed, I'm going to go as far as to say that was your fault. Had you known where to go or who to ask or what to do, you could have handled the situation in such a way that your clients would have been no worse for wear.

To be perfectly honest you sound a little like a child who falls down in the cafeteria in front of the whole school, gets embarrassed and then blames the shoe for being untied. Passing the buck just doesn't work here. Im sorry your weekend didn't turn out as impressively as you would have liked, but perhaps being a little more proactive would have been the band-aid on this particular bullet hole.

Crappy PA system or not, I think the responsibility to impress your clients falls on your shoulders, not the KHP's. Sh*t happens at events, you gotta role with the punches, and I hardly think your instance shows a great flaw in the KHP managing of an event.

FlightCheck

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:30 AM

I'll jump in later with more, as I just got off a plane...

Pynn, was that you wearing a maroon turtleneck/shirt during dressage?

The horse park doesn't have the same "sound system" in the barns as it does for the rings, etc. You use a radio to transmit to the barns - a totally different system than the regular PA.

My boss, who could not be there because he had Emergency Surgery, usually adds more speakers on XC.

I can't comment on the actual XC announcing because I was announcing all dressage Thurs/Fri/Sat and then SJ on Sunday. (Giles was the XC announcer on Sat, and Rick the Sunday XC announcer).

Now I'm going to bed.

wanderlust

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:36 AM

Amen, LM8. pwynn, if there was not enough "support", it was your rider's fault, not the fault of the event. Did you really expect the event to provide folks to hold your and your rider's hands? Come on, now. They don't do that at h/j shows, either. It is the responsibility of the rider to bring an appropriate support team, and clearly your rider dropped the ball.

If you were scrambling around trying to help, all you had to do was give your clients the course map, pick out the best spot to watch a bunch of fences, and send them there while you straightened things out. Not brain surgery.

Again, your fault and your rider's fault, not the fault of the event. You can spin it any way you want, but I don't think many of us are going to align to the point of the view that the event is at fault for not being impressive. YOU took people there to impress them, yet YOU didn't know how an event was run and YOU left them sitting in the barn without instructions for where to go watch. Seems pretty clear where the bad communication came from.

tle

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:39 AM

You have GOT to be kidding! I was liking this more and more when you weren't around. AT least then I didn't finish the day with a headache from banging it against the wall while moaning "why doesn't she GET it?". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I think this is the phrase that got "y'all" going:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> How the heck can one get SUPPORT for a talented horse when it seems that all he's doing is competing in some half-assed sport where people risk their necks and no one knows what to do when something goes wrong? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll not apologize for those words, no matter how you hurl the insults. IMPRESSION is important to people outside the sport and, whether you want to agree or acknowledge it or not, "outside the sport" is just as important as inside the sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes that was part of it that started it off. Along with all the criticisms of the sport, the organizers, the volunteers, etc. from someone who then PROFESSED to have no knowledge. Just a wee bit high & mighty for most of us. If you want to hang on to that holier-than-thou attitude, please return to the H/J ring nearest you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I was NOT calling the sport half-assed, I said that it SEEMED as if it were--and I'm telling you, folks, that that WAS the impression my companions had. You wanna tell them to just up a leave? One was a high level manager at the IRS. Another a high level manager at a major research firm. Two others were the owners of one of Con's siblings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And their employment status is of relevance how?? Someone could be the garbage man or a hooker and I wouldn't care one iota. See, that's the great thing about eventing -- things like that that define status aren't of any importance (unlike what you're used to in H/J land I guess). It's like name-dropping -- annoying.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And here's the thing: this wasn't just some podunk event out in nowheresville. This was (well, at least it was billed by me--my fault for sure) a "big deal" kind of event. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
and rightly so. ANY CCI* is a big deal!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>My friends were left to wander around or sit in the barns after I left because they sure as heck didn't know what else was going on. (Yeah, they can read, but y'know, most of them have been to dressage and h-j shows, and like me, they're accustomed to hearing and seeing what's going on, not just having to decipher it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) the fact that they were left on their own certainly isn't the fault of the sport or the event. YOU bring 'em, YOU entertain/educate/deal with them! God, that's like saying I am bringing my 4yo with me but can't be bothered to deal with him/her all weekend. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

2) Glad they can read. One would hope so for a high level manager in the IRS. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

3) Perhaps the problem lies with this statement -- most of them have been to dressage and h-j shows, and like me, they're accustomed to hearing and seeing what's going on. Guess what? YOU'RE AT AN EVENT NOW BABY NOT A H/J OR DRESSAGE SHOW!! Good god woman... this is an entirely different sport! Just because we also ride horses, also do a dressage test and also do a jumping round doesn't mean things are going to be exactly the same! To expect and then DEMAND such as you have done is arrogance of the highest order.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Nope, folks, you can be as snide as you want to <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hello pot? This is kettle. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>but 1.) having a crappy PA system (are you telling me KHP has a HISTORY of crappy PA systems?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> and 2.) not having (or, yes as I implied, having but not using--a la the armbands, which YOU FOLKS poo poo'ed, if I recall correctly--a protocol for dealing with a head injury in a sport where such probably isn't uncommon (not a broken bone, but a head-not-thinking-straight injury) is NOT IMPRESSIVE. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ONCE AGAIN, just because the protocol for dealing with a head injury did not keep you, the self-proclaimed hands-off owner in the loop, does not mean it is non-existent OR unimpressive. Get some knowledge before you start spouting off things and making yourself look like a much bigger fool than you already appear to be.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Yup, folks, I brought my friends to be impressed and they weren't. Not by Christan or her fall or even any confusion directly involving that (I stated, the gray horse thing was OUR fault, after all), but rather for the lack of communication and support that, yes, THEY, not just I, perceived. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
which I think I have already mentioned is not the fault of the sport but the fault of 1) Christian for not having mentioned the appropriate things a support crew shoudl know, 2) your fault for not "babysitting" your guests, and 3) your fault for having unrealistic expectations based on your experiences in other disciplines which you also passed on to your clients.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Hate me for it? Hate THEM for it? Go right ahead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) don't hate anyone. Feel frustrated at you for being thick-headed in not getting what people have been telling you for 9 pages yet. Feel sorry for your clients. And feel defensive for teh sport in lieu of the jabs, barbs and accusations being hurled at it by someone who has proclaimed their ignorance but keeps on pushing the issues she doesn't know anything about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>They aren't your clients, after all, and maybe you don't operate in that vein anyway. Fine for you, but maybe not so for others whom you do not represent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right... they are YOUR clients... therefore YOUR responsibility. This mess is YOUR mess. Please stop passing it off as a "tragedy of errors" committed by the sport or the event. Someone (Erin?) said it best several pages ago when they pointed out that your frustration lies in the fact that you were frustrated and embarrassed in front of your clients. Hardly makes it the fault of the entire sport or even of the event.

dps

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:42 AM

I admit I did not read all nine pages but I do want to say PLEASE don't lash out at the volunteers and helpers. It is very hard to get enough people together to do this for free let alone have them criztized on how they did it. Most of them don't know what they are suppose to be doing until 5 minutes before they start and it can be very stressful. I feel it is the grooms/owner's responsibilty to know what is going on and should have a plan in case of emergency and if you have someone riding for you please have their emergency contact information in your pocket.
I evented by myself this year and was very nervous about doing this but it was at the lower levels. I always tell my husband where I'm going and to be close to his cell phone in case I need him to come get me or the horse.

cinnabar

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:50 AM

pwynn, I have been so holding my tongue on this, since many others have already typed and retyped my thoughts (Erin, tle, and more), but I have to mention...

[pwynn said: QUOTE]
I think this is the phrase that got "y'all" going:

quote: How the heck can one get SUPPORT for a talented horse when it seems that all he's doing is competing in some half-assed sport where people risk their necks and no one knows what to do when something goes wrong?

I'll not apologize for those words, no matter how you hurl the insults. IMPRESSION is important to people outside the sport and, whether you want to agree or acknowledge it or not, "outside the sport" is just as important as inside the sport.

I was NOT calling the sport half-assed, I said that it SEEMED as if it were--and I'm telling you, folks, that that WAS the impression my companions had. You wanna tell them to just up a leave? One was a high level manager at the IRS. Another a high level manager at a major research firm. Two others were the owners of one of Con's siblings. [/QUOTE]

No, you did call the sport half-assed. Your own direct quote indicates that your horse seems to be competing in some half-assed sport. That the sport is indeed half-assed. At least that's the way I read it.

Now then, if you consider your companions are your "clients" from whom you are seeking some kind of future support, then I would consider you their "hostess" for the day. Since you invited them along for certain reasons, then, as a proper hostess, I would expect you to be knowledgeable of what you wanted them to see, understand certain protocols (that are readily available for those interested in learning), and be prepared to educate your companions/clients on the sport.

I can't blame your companions for being unimpressed. How could they not be, especially when all they have to go on is your point of view?

You weren't prepared to be a hostess. If you don't like that term, then you weren't prepared, as the horse's owner, sport pony breeder, and seeker of potential sponsorship dollars to properly market your product. You won't take responsibility for that. If you want to market the result of your pony breeding efforts in eventing, then you should learn about the sport and how things work and be ready to show it off. As with most horse endeavors, things can and do go wrong, and a good hostess should be able to handle such tragedies gracefully.

I would imagine that some of your ponies have great talent in eventing. However, you may find that conducting business at h/j or dressage venues more conducive to promoting your ponies, only because you may be more comfortable in those environments (where the overall action is more controlled and contained).

oskaar

Oct. 27, 2004, 08:01 AM

Well, I may as well chime in here, as I am waiting for my meeting to show up...

The medical response program is in in place to have immediate care for horse and rider. I am fairly certain it is unethical, if not outright illegal, for the EMTs to disclose injuries and medical status. These things are not announced over the loudspeaker to prevent panic, to allow other riders to go on with their day, and to protect the injured party from rumormongers.

As for the rest of your argument(s) (although I must say, I am confused as to what you are actually trying to say), I have to say this: I have enjoyed supporting your endeavors, and Christan's as well, through your reports on the board. The more you open your mouth (or type), the less I respect you, and unfortunately, I feel as though you are dragging Christan's name through the mud along with your own (for those who don't know her).

There sure are a lot of ears on this board, many who never post a single thing, and it's unfortunate that you choose to present your arguments in such a childish way--maybe some of those ears would take some professionally presented criticism and make a change.

Hilary

Oct. 27, 2004, 08:54 AM

I don't know squat about shepherding a prospective sponsor for my horse around an event. I DO Know how to shepherd my mom and elderly relatives around one. I also know how to shepherd donors for other purposes around projects they support.

They depend on ME to make the arrangements so that their day is great = whether I am saying "Mom, the best place for you and Aunt Sally to watch today is either at the bank complex or at the water fence, and here are directions for the best way to get to each. This is my number, I ride at this time. Btw, I think Aunt Sally might find a better place to sit at the water fence"

Or I am arranging with the director of an organization to give a tour to a group of donors, it is ME they look to, not the agency. Not just give them the address and say "have at it".

Fence2Fence

Oct. 27, 2004, 09:37 AM

After reading all nine pages, some very valid points on both sides.

The thing I take away from this topic is how important it is to know the event you are going to attend if you are going to introduce people to the sport. I think I've always understood this because I only invite people out to shows that I'm familar with. The course is friendly, the facility is beautiful, it never rains on that weekend (ha). There are some shows that I know not to drag family and friends too because it always seems to rain.

About the speaker system at the KHP: I was starting a course walk last summer, and one of the announcers was doing his own wiring. Know those line of trees below the steeplechase barn? He had the wire tied to a hatchet and was THROWING it over a limb of a tree. He'd pick it up and THROW it over the next tree, and so on, until each tree in that line was "wired". I was like "Dude, what are you DOING?" His reply was: "If you want to hear announcements for cross country tomorrow, I need to get it wired." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Maybe I walked away from that experience with the wrong assumption (and one of our experienced announcers can correct me), but the cross country course isn't permanently wired for the PA system. It's something that each show does before each event.

Maybe eventing isn't on par with other sports, but we face such unique obstacles. I would consider KHP one of the nicest venues around--and look what they have to do to provide the services that they do.

I guess the barns aren't wired because there isn't any trees in the stabling to string the wiring through, lol.

Anne FS

Oct. 27, 2004, 10:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I think this is the phrase that got "y'all" going:

[QUOTE] How the heck can one get SUPPORT for a talented horse when it seems that all he's doing is competing in some half-assed sport <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you see how you aren't listening? I told you that phrase did it. I told you. TWICE. Did you listen? Obviously not. So did others, Erin, I think, and more. Did you listen? Obviously not. You totally missed that and now you write, "I think this is the phrase.." Oh, how brilliant you are.

<<I'll not apologize for those words, no matter how you hurl the insults.>>

WHO "hurled insults"? Facts, lady. Quote 'em, here, so we all can see.

<>

Yes, you were.

<<You wanna tell them to just up a leave? One was a high level manager at the IRS. Another a high level manager at a major research firm.>>

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

<<My friends were left to wander around or sit in the barns after I left because they sure as heck didn't know what else was going on.>>

That's YOUR FAULT. My gosh, woman, talk about wanting your hand held!!

<<(Yeah, they can read, but y'know, most of them have been to dressage and h-j shows, and like me, they're accustomed to hearing and seeing what's going on,>>

What did they THINK was going to happen? Did you truly lead them to believe they would see a CROSSCOUNTRY course of what, a mile or so, and be able to see it all from the h/j stands. Ohmygod. So. You admit they thought they'd see everything that happened. On Cross-country? At an EVENT? You badly misled your clients. BADLY.

<<into something a bit more established--at some levels at least).>>

Eventing is quite well established already. You took no advantage of the information available to you.

<<Nope, folks, you can be as snide as you want to>>

Again, quotes, please. Who's been snide besides you?

<<not using--a la the armbands, which YOU FOLKS poo poo'ed, if I recall correctly--a protocol for dealing with a head injury in a sport where such probably isn't uncommon (not a broken bone, but a head-not-thinking-straight injury) is NOT IMPRESSIVE.>>

There IS A PROTOCOL. PAY ATTENTION! Were YOU the emergency contact on Christian's armband? If not, it is ILLEGAL for an EMT to give you information about her condition. ILLEGAL. AGAINST THE LAW. YOU AREN'T IN THE LOOP.

Nobody hates anyone. Again, you are the only hateful one here.

<<They aren't your clients, after all, and maybe you don't operate in that vein anyway.>>

EXACTLY. Now you get it. We DON'T treat our clients the way you apparently treat yours. We treat 'em right. With education and respect and taking care to see that they are informed and comfortable, whether things go well or ill for our riders.

tle

Oct. 27, 2004, 10:22 AM

Thought of something else I wanted to say (imagine that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Yup, folks, I brought my friends to be impressed and they weren't. Not by Christan or her fall or even any confusion directly involving that (I stated, the gray horse thing was OUR fault, after all), but rather for the lack of communication and support that, yes, THEY, not just I, perceived. Hate me for it? Hate THEM for it? Go right ahead. They aren't your clients, after all, and maybe you don't operate in that vein anyway. Fine for you, but maybe not so for others whom you do not represent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's a similar situation... especially is you substitute friend/owner for client in your story. I'm heading to an event I know well that I tell everyone how nice it is this coming weekend. I will be riding my "client's" horse at this event. She is coming with me. Being a hands-on owner, I fully figure she will be helping me around the barn... but if she chooses to spectate all weekend with her 4yo daughter who is also coming, so be it. I am the rider and riding the horses (hers and mine) in the event is something I signed on to do, help or no help.

However, whether or not she helps or spectates and relaxes all weekend, you can bet that she will have

1) a working knowledge of the facility -- where the stall is, where the dressage and SJ rings are, where the bathrooms are, where the secretary's office is, where the scores are posted and where XC starts and finishes (for at least her horse's level if not both). I feel this is MY responsibility as she is my guest at the event.

2) working knowledge of the sport. She rides dressage so she "gets" that part. But she will be informed of things like unauthorized assistance, how the scoring works, where to stand/not stand, etc. Again, as MY guest I feel it is up to me to educate her so she doesn't get hurt and/or interfere with those (including myself) who have worked hard to get to the event.

and finally 3) a general even vague understanding of things should I get hurt -- specifically where the truck keys are! Luckily for me, she is a VERY competent horsewoman so I don't have to go into those details. But as someone who goes to MANY events by myself (including the H/J show a couple weeks ago where I fell pretty hard on my back), I OFTEN tell people I know where to find my truck keys. Oh... and I also have (although it needs updating) a sheet in my truck that tells all my pertinent information -- contact numbers for me, the horse, the dog (he's often with me) as well as allergy information for me, feeding instructions for the critters, etc. As someone who goes (and who likes to go) to events by myself, I feel that is the LEAST I can do not only help out shoudl I get hurt, but my obligation for care of my animals in my absence.

I hope this little story shows you how much YOU are responsible for YOUR clients (not that any professional business person should need to be told that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ).

FlightCheck

Oct. 27, 2004, 10:33 AM

Fence2Fence:

I'm sure that was my boss, Nicho, doing the throwing.

~and even MORE unpleasant is the UNWIRING at the end of the show!!~

LisaB

Oct. 27, 2004, 10:44 AM

Eeewww, pwynn! Sorry this is all bumping uglies but I do have to chime in here.
I haven't met you personally but of course met Con. You are a hands on owner from what I know. I rode your horse and that's not the rider's way of riding. I knew her too. So, given that your a conscientious owner, you are probably looking out for the best for your horse. Who wouldn't?
Given that and the hoopla over making a three day, you were probably expecting W. Palm Beach. But eventing is inherently different. We are all hands on, no frills type of people. Given that, when you get some suburban head honchos out to the boonies, they are not going to be endeared to it all. If you wanted to impress the crap out of them, go to Rolex, Burghley, Athens. Just someplace where there's a PR crew available. And to contact them prior to arrival so they can help you out.
In order for you and your friends to understand eventing, you should have had an experienced eventer with you to explain and where to go, what to do.
The sport is not half-assed. It's extremely organized and well thought out. It's just not fancified for the IRS manager(please, keep them at home http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)
It's also not simple. Not many lay-people 'get it'. Your rider was handled properly, period. Your horse was taken into experienced hands VOLUNTARILY because sfir is a true event person. We are about generosity and understanding and most of all educating(ourselves, horses, or others)
I'm positive if you went up to ask ANYONE in the ENTIRE event a question, they would either answer you or send you in the right direction.
And I think a definite apology is in order for the wiring guy since he had to go in for emergency surgery and couldn't do the extra wiring on x-c day. (Did it have to do something with throwing that hatchet with the wire attached over trees?)
How about next time you go to a 3 day, ask me and I will join you. Then we can go over all the 'stuff' and hopefully, you'll get the lines of communication you were hoping for.

Fence2Fence

Oct. 27, 2004, 10:48 AM

Does he have a British accent?

It was a very funny encounter. He was a nice person--and he can throw a hatchet!

FlightCheck

Oct. 27, 2004, 11:08 AM

Yep, he's British.

No-one throws a hammer like Nicho!!

asterix

Oct. 27, 2004, 01:07 PM

Zowie, just read this entire thread. I am not going to repeat what everyone else has said, although by and large I agree with it.
I have been trying to come up with what "protocols," "guidelines," or "placards" would have helped with the alleged lack of communication and education (the PA system issues are separate, and as everyone has said, details of injuries are usually not announced that way anyway).

How about:
Welcome to Fancy Event XYZ! If you are here to watch a rider, please be aware that the cross country phase (held on Day X) is a fast-paced ride spread through woods and fields over Y acres of natural terrain. Riders should complete this phase and cross the finish line approximately Z minutes after they leave the start box (located next to the vet or "10 minute" box; please consult the map). We hope you will take the time to find a place on course to safely watch your rider compete. Jump judges at each obstacle can assist you with an appropriate viewing location.

There are some unfortunate circumstances in which a rider does not finish in a timely fashion, or may not finish at all. These circumstances may include (but are not limited to): being overtaken by a faster rider; getting lost on course; having one or multiple stops at one or multiple obstacles (may include being overtaken by a faster rider, see above); falling off at one or more obstacle; falling off in between obstacles; having horse fall at an obstacle; having horse fall in between obstacles; having horse run off into woods after fall of rider; having horse run back along course after fall of rider; having horse run back to trailer/barns after fall of rider; having horse run in any direction except forward with rider still aboard; sudden fainting spells; acts of God.
Should any of these circumstance occur while your rider is competing, please be assured that event officials and medical and veterinary personnel will be immediately notified and will leap professionally into action. They will be very busy. There may or may not be a related announcement over the PA, depending on the nature of the incident. If you become concerned or believe your rider to have encountered difficulties, please ask a jump judge, area steward, the event secretary, or anyone in a golf cart or carrying a radio to help you determine what has happened.

I am only being a little bit sarcastic -- I think it would be VERY nice and a real relief for people to know this sort of thing, and it could be printed up and maybe included in a rider's materials to give out to friends/family/clients. I don't think it should go in the program, since (again from the perspective of promoting the sport) your _average_ spectator does not need to and should not pester officials with queries about individual riders and mishaps on course.

And as for the question of "dummies" or weekend warriors entering the sport...first of all, I assume these terms would not apply to a first time CCI* rider, but rather to all of us low level riders. Perhaps we should require competitors to volunteer or complete some kind of "certificate of participation" before actuall competing. If you groom for a friend you could have it filled out. Right, I know, no one would mandate this. SO what would you have USEA do???

At lower level events I think officials/volunteers are mindful of the possibility of new competitors and spectators. I was both XC and SJ warmup steward last weekend at a recognized event, and in both places I had to do a little on-the-spot educating -- several novice riders had no idea that XC warmup fences could only be jumped in one direction, for example, and I had a posse of Training SJ competitors nearly run each other over because they completely forgot to call their fences. SHould they all have known better before they showed up? Um, technically. But if they can learn by me yelling at them in warmup, that's fine. They will know next time.

But it's a whole different story at the upper levels. Perhaps we need a stricter delineation between who is "working" to support a rider, and who is just there to watch. Then we could require some kind of experience or education for the workers. But I do think this sort of thing is more regulation and micromanaging than eventing is going to bear. The OP is right to suggest that we are resistant to changing the "figure it out" nature of our sport. The question becomes is that a bad thing? What do we lose by holding fast to this attitude?

asterix

Oct. 27, 2004, 01:11 PM

Wow. sorry that was so long. Assume no one will read, probably a good thing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

NMS

Oct. 27, 2004, 01:17 PM

I'm going the high road here and ignoring the delivery of the OP, but here is one thing I've been thinking about...how about if the organizers, td's, etc., all volunteers, even jump judges wore some sort of ID? Like a Pinny, or a badge of some sort? That way ANYONE would know they are part of the organization, and the announcer could say to anyone "if you have ??contact anyone in a Pinny." It would be an easy way to ID folks whether you are in the know, or not.

Just might make it easier on family, friends, or people just curious and wanting to get involved. Also, from a volunteer prospective, it does give you some visual "influence" if you need to use it.

Ok, here is a good idea from a bad thread. Any comments? Add to it and I'll send it off if it has any merit.

Nanc

Judi

Oct. 27, 2004, 01:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by asterix:
Wow. sorry that was so long. Assume no one will read, probably a good thing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Asterix... Well said... well said.... I think someone should copy and paste your text to print for thier next event.

: )

Judi

Oct. 27, 2004, 03:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:

Yup, folks, I brought my friends to be impressed and they weren't. Not by Christan or her fall or even any confusion directly involving that (I stated, the gray horse thing was OUR fault, after all), but rather for the lack of communication and support that, yes, THEY, not just I, perceived. Hate me for it? Hate THEM for it? Go right ahead. They aren't your clients, after all, and maybe you don't operate in that vein anyway. Fine for you, but maybe not so for others whom you do not represent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey pwynn... I understand your frustration but you seem to be holding the H/J world (which I have recently crossed over from) up as some sort of shining example of a discipline that caters to the novice rider and/or spectator/sponsor/owner.

I am curious how you think your perspective clients would have been treated at a Top Rated H/J show had a rider been injured in the ring?

It has been my experience that the event organizers at the large H/J Circuits take even less responsibility in contacting anyone associated with the rider than perhaps the Horse Trial event organizers do...

Let me explain....
At any of the major AA HITS shows there can be up to 8 rings running simultaneously and forget being able to hear where any of the show rings are in order of go at the barns which can be located a good 10 to 15 minute walk from any ring. If a rider is hurt the Trainer/Asst. Trainer and Groom who are there at ring side will contact the staff back at the barns with thier OWN radio system... NOT the show grounds. In fact there is absolutely NO communication on the show grounds to the spectators about the injury other than... calling for an EMT (which they usually will not do accross the PA).

Also... as for spectator friendly...
Any spectator that shows up to one of these large shows for anything other than the Grand Prix would be hopelessly confused as to what class they were watching and what ring they were at... let alone how to even find a competitor they might be there for.

As far as understanding the eventing ropes for us Novice folks... I am just beginning my eventing career with my show jumper. We are going to our first Horse trial this November... I have already competed with my horse at a one day derby and competed my trainers Intermediate Horse in the Novice division at a 3 day horse trial last month. The entire time my trainer taught, informed, demonstrated, course walked, and guided me every step of the way. We arrived Thursday and discussed every detail so that I was prepared for anything should I need to help my fellow riders and/or her.

I have also attended at least 2 other 3 day events to understand what I needed to know so that I'm not unprepared and overwhelmed when I finally do my first 3 day with my own horse. I must admit I was amazingly overwhelmed when I attended my first cross country day as a spectator... (coming from the Hunter/Jumper world) I mean 3 horses on course at once... it was confusing.. amazing AND exhilerating... AND I was hooked...

It is my trainers duty to educate me and it is my duty to get educated... to the point that I feel completely comfortable and knowledgeable to handle the many details involved with a 3 day.

I mean this with no malace Pwynn... and I hope you find the right event to take your clients to so they can truly get an understanding for how wonderful this sport is.

: )

Gry2Yng

Oct. 27, 2004, 04:21 PM

Judi,
As it is my duty to help educate the newbie, here goes.

A three-day event and a horse trial that takes place over three days are different. The terms three day and horse trial and eventing are not interchangable, but you are far from the first to do so.

A three day and a horse trial both have dressage, show jumping and a cross country jumping phase. A three day has what is known as Speed and Endurance Day, which includes cross country as well as Phases A, B and C. Phase B is also known as steeplechase and Phases A and C are known as roads and tracks. A true three-day can only be found at the preliminary level and above (the CCI). Training level three days are offered as an educational opportunity.

Horse trials are often held over three days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday). Three-days are usually held over four day (or five if you count the jog) Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, with two days of dressage on Thursday and Friday.

It is not the easiest sport to learn. Your point regarding big H/J shows is excellent.

Judi

Oct. 27, 2004, 04:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gry2Yng:
Judi,
As it is my duty to help educate the newbie, here goes.

A three-day event and a horse trial that takes place over three days are different. The terms three day and horse trial and eventing are not interchangable, but you are far from the first to do so.

A three day and a horse trial both have dressage, show jumping and a cross country jumping phase. A three day has what is known as Speed and Endurance Day, which includes cross country as well as Phases A, B and C. Phase B is also known as steeplechase and Phases A and C are known as roads and tracks. A true three-day can only be found at the preliminary level and above (the CCI). Training level three days are offered as an educational opportunity.

Horse trials are often held over three days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday). Three-days are usually held over four day (or five if you count the jog) Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, with two days of dressage on Thursday and Friday.

It is not the easiest sport to learn. Your point regarding big H/J shows is excellent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah... I stand corrected... I will more than likely only be competing in Horse Trials.... That will help keep me straight.... I've only crossed over from the H/J world since June... loving it.... but oh.. sooo much to learn...

Thanks for the education Gry2Yng....

: )

Janet

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:34 PM

And just to be further confusing, Badminton, which is one of the biggest "Three- Day Events" in the world, is OFFICIALLY called "Badminton Horse Trials"!!

fanfayre

Oct. 27, 2004, 07:58 PM

VERY well said, asterix!
And now, if I may make a suggestion to pwynn, assuming you're open to suggestions.
When your rider and horse are feeling better and back in competition mode, why don't you invite those guests who you wanted to become sponsors to a Horse Trials? This way they can see the quality of horse and rider, and have an idea of the preparation and committment it takes to get to a CCI, in a less "frenzied" environment.If they say "No", are you sure they are the kind of people you want as sponsors, anyway?

His Greyness

Oct. 27, 2004, 08:39 PM

Having plowed through 10 pages of this diatribe trying to figure what's going on and why the two sides are getting so wound up I have finally come up with an analogy that may explain things. This response is intended to annoy both sides equally http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif !

Ms.Pwynnnorman was actually on a sales call with potential clients. Just like some computer salesmen I knew whose high tech demo didn't work in front of some critical customers, she sought to blame others as a way of dealing with her own embarrassment. One of the critical things to do in any sales situation is to set expectations correctly (then you can meet them!). As some of you have so vociferously pointed out, she doesn't apparently have enough knowledge of eventing to do so. I would not expect to sell a truck in the same way as I would a sports car. Eventing (fortunately) is nothing like the hunter-jumper world.

On the other hand most of you were so busy defending eventing that you missed the point she was trying to make. Eventing needs outside sources of funds, particularly at the upper levels, to function. So dealing with the clueless affluent is a neccessary skill for eventing organizations to develop. I have often thought events need to provide some Wal*Mart greeters to explain things to the uninitiated and then rattle the collection can in front of them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ! Requiring potential sponsors to undergo some "training program" before you will let them give you money is a really dumb strategy.

We now return you to the rant in progress.

annikak

Oct. 28, 2004, 03:32 AM

Flightcheck-
Please tell Nicho that we hope he feels better- he is FANTASTIC at what he does. (and i speak for members of uspc, too) And Ma'am, you do an outstading job yourself! I am always really glad to know when you are all there. Part of a really good event!! Thanks! (From someone who has a hard name to read-- And you do it really well! I was actually tickeled when you said it right in dressage, and later, jumping!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Hilary

Oct. 28, 2004, 04:32 AM

With regards to officials wearing some sort of notification - they do! They usually have a nametag with a ribbon on it. No, it's not a day-glo body stocking, but it IS something that the rest of us schlubs don't wear. FWIW, they are also usually more dressed up than the average spectator or competitor.

Or are nametags with "JUDGE" on the little hang-down ribbon only used in Area I?

Gry2Yng

Oct. 28, 2004, 04:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Requiring potential sponsors to undergo some "training program" before you will let them give you money is a really dumb strategy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anyone is suggesting potential sponsors go through a training program. Those who ASSIST a rider in the 10 minute box have to be educated. Perhaps this is the distinction that is causing the confussion, but I don't expect a sponsor to know how to work the 10 minute box. I don't even expect and owner or a parent to know. But whoever the rider puts in the box should know what they are doing. If that IS a sponsor so be it. They have now stepped out of the realm of spectator.

To continue your analogy, what wynn did would be like asking on of the customers on the sales call to step up to the table and fix the computer when your presentation goes badly.

asterix

Oct. 28, 2004, 05:49 AM

Right, and that's what my overly verbose tongue-in-cheek rant was getting at -- we could beef up training/education guidelines (or even make them requirements) for people actually assisting the rider...although then we would have to draw a sharp line between assisting and watching ...

but if we want to educate sponsors or "pure" spectators, it's pretty hard to do in the way I think pwynn was suggesting. We'd have to compose a long and sort of scary sounding essay for them to read...

SBH

Oct. 28, 2004, 06:33 AM

Look, I was one that was defending our sport to the hilt. I do understand that our sport is a hard one to follow if you are new to it. I think having "greeters" at an event is a good idea but a bit unrealistic at most of them. It is hard enough to find volunteers to cover all necessary jobs without adding more. Like has been suggested before, Rolex or possible Fair Hill are wonderful venues for this type of interaction. I'm not sure, but if you called in advance, they would probably try to accomodate you. Team Challenge is very well run event but it is small scale (even though it has the *) in comparison to the two I mentioned above. They do not have corporate sponsors to contribute so it can't be expected to be on that level, and may well not want to be. Maybe, if its not already available, it would be a good suggestion to be able to schedule in advance to have "greeters" at the big 3-days to meet potential sponsors and owners. But...on the smaller scale, I still believe that it is the rider or owner's responsibility to take care of this either personally or arrange to have someone that "knows the business" show them around.

asterix

Oct. 28, 2004, 06:55 AM

um, as a frequent volunteer at events of all levels, can i vote AGAINST the dayglo body stocking idea?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

At Fair Hill we all had pins on our jackets, and Waredaca makes me wear this dreadful yellow apron. It won't land me on the cover of Cosmo, but you can spot me from a mile away.
However, at neither event was it made clear that we "had" to wear these items, and I know the yellow apron goes by the wayside for many volunteers. I wore it this time because, as XC and SJ warmup steward, I thought being highly visible was both a safety and a logistical benefit.
As a jump judge I doubt I would have...

tle

Oct. 28, 2004, 06:59 AM

LOL You think riders complain now about the positioning of the fence judges when their green ponies spook at them.. let's put the fence judges in day-glo body stockings and see the ponies (and people http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ) spook!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

gahawkeye

Oct. 28, 2004, 07:52 AM

The first couple years at Foxhall I was an "ambassador" in the sponsors/members tent. Job was to visit tables of non-horsey sponsors/those new to sport and ask if they had any questions, try to explain the sport, give a little history on various horse/rider combinations, explain scoring etc. Basically give them a little information so that watching would be interesting. Great PR role and think it helped.

Linus

Oct. 28, 2004, 08:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by gahawkeye:
The first couple years at Foxhall I was an "ambassador" in the sponsors/members tent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooh, great idea. If you don't mind my asking -- was it paid or volunteer? (I doubt many events would/could afford to pay someone for this ... but then again how many can spare volunteers for nonessential things?)

OT, but this has been bugging me. TLE, what's that little sheep with a flag thing under your name?

tle

Oct. 28, 2004, 08:31 AM

Linus... got me! I think it has something to do with AIM, but what I don't know.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 28, 2004, 09:12 AM

Back again. Lot's of speeches to grade this week (group projects-ugh).

I've had fun with this (not that I'm thrilled with enraging you folks), but as someone who has had to deal with communication for so many years in my career, it has been intriguing for me to follow how much you all are so quick to read into a persons words things that simply may not be there OR which may be far more complicated than what can be described in a few (or even "not few enough"!) paragraphs.

As you can imagine, I have by now told my friends/colleagues about this thread (including some not present) and they're like rolling around either in laughter or in anger because of the silly assumptions so many of you have chosen to make...and the sport's seemingly (oh, no, there goes that WORD again: "seemingly," "seems," etc.--equivalent to "IS" in so many of your minds, for some reason) "delicate" status that its events can take some criticism.

Very weird, for someone looking in from the outside.

I would like to clarify one thing of huge importance though: why I brought up protocols. A lot of you chose to intrepret that to mean "tell me everything" when I was specifically talking about how very scary it is to deal with head injuries. Not broken legs. Not falls in general. Head injuries where the person is not making sense, especially progressively so.

That's a serious matter when that person is the one responsible for another being (like her own horse). In a sport where head injuries aren't uncommon, having a published protocol for the laypeople who may have to deal with possibly serious head injuries that aren't immediately in evidence IS a good idea. To poo poo it is stupid. In a perfect world, y'know what I'd do (yeah, I have taught and worked in PR for a more than a decade, so yeah, that IS simply the way my mind thinks): I'd have some slip of paper (oh, no! more paper!) in a file somewhere to whip out and hand to the parent, groom, child, driver, or whoever took charge of the person injured after the EMT so they'd know what to look for as signs of a worsening condition. I did some quickie searches online and found a number of team sports who had something similar (soccer is the one I remember the most: goalies clocking it with the goal post a lot, I guess).

Next, sorry, folks, but I've now heard enough negative views on KHP to believe that it's not perfect. If that facility can't take some criticism, well, it does have a long way to go then. I wasn't expecting West Palm Beach--which is my all-time favorite show ground, I'll admit--but I wasn't expecting bad PA systems, obviously. Who WOULD?

And as to "wandering around clueless", what, pray tell, to do THINK I meant by that? That they couldn't tell that horses were doing x-c here and stadium there and dressage over there? They'd have to be dumb and blind for that. No, they were clueless about the things that would have enabled them to enjoy THE event, not eventing in general. Silly people. They're interested in Connor. They all go online and check out whatever courses he's taking. They compare his dressage scores to the BNTs. They read Christan's reports which she sends us in great detail. They do the "woulda-coulda-shoulda's" when things go wrong.

Which is why not knowing who was going when or where because of a faulty PA system (and, come to think of it, SIGNAGE would have been nice, too), left them too clueless to appreciate the novice, training, prelim, or how Buck Davidson did (a name they know) or when Prelim would do dressage, or how many were left to go in division X, etc., etc. Stuff, yeah, they'd come to EXPECT in a highly billed event like this one.

Frustration of rising expections, folks. You may not care to acknowledge it today, but as h-j and dressage DO and start addressing things that effect it from the outside in, you may find eventing having to play catch up to its significant disadvantage. Sadly, people DO see eventing and event horses as something lesser--and the problem is you folks just don't seem to care! That is the one huge disappointment to me about this thread because I'm serious breeding ponies for this. To hear it put down bothers me, and then I'm even MORE bothered to see things happen that DESERVE it being put down (like PA system problems and, as YOU guys pointed out pages ago, useless jump judges and armband--your indications not mine, see page 2 or 3 I think.

(BTW, in case you didn't know, I evented through Prelim years ago and have bummed around this sport for decades--as I said before, I love the sport and have been involved and aware of it since I attended the same prep school as Michael Plumb and was a member of the same Pony Club as Bruce Davidson (not at the same time, though). Thus it is also a bit silly to ASSUME that someone who criticizes the sport knows and/or cares nothing about it.

JAGold

Oct. 28, 2004, 09:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I would like to clarify one thing of huge importance though: why I brought up protocols. A lot of you chose to intrepret that to mean "tell me everything" when I was specifically talking about how very scary it is to deal with head injuries. Not broken legs. Not falls in general. Head injuries where the person is not making sense, especially progressively so.

That's a serious matter when that person is the one responsible for another being (like her own horse). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not a lawyer, but I think that giving out guidelines such as you describe could open up the organizers to all sorts of liability concerns. But more importantly, I think you have a mistaken notion of the responsibility the organizers have for the riders. Entering a competition does NOT make the person or people running the competition responsible for you. The entry is a contract that obligates the organizers to provide certain services -- facilities and judges who meet standards set out in the rule book, emergency responders as required by the governing body, reporting of results to USAE, and similar conditions. But the entry does not turn over responsibility for the horse and rider to the organizers. Competitors are still ultimately responsible for themselves.

And a few other things. What is your point in telling us that your collegues are "rolling around in laughter or in anger?" Are you trying to express some intellectual superiority? Because all I can say is that for someone who is a self-professed expert in communication, you are having a lot of trouble getting your point across. And blaming the listeners isn't the mark of a sucessful communications strategy.

And similarly, I don't care how much experience you have had in the eventing world. The fact remains that you didn't know enough to figure out who was in charge or what was happening in an enviornment where lots of other people could obtain that information. --Jess

tle

Oct. 28, 2004, 09:33 AM

MUST.... BACK.... AWAY.... MUST.... NOT .... FEED....TROLLS....

PS. GO JESS!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

pwynnnorman

Oct. 28, 2004, 09:50 AM

Hardly, JAGold. The guidelines I found had to do with watching the person so signs of more serious injury. Sleepiness, sluggishness, bruising not initially apparent, increasing mental confusion, etc. Nothing at all that would involve liabilities, just proper treatment. Are you saying that it's grandma's responsibility to figure out what to do after Joey has taken a header into some rails on the baby novice course and if grandma doesn't know, then tough luck, Joey? Is it NOT grandma's responsibility, ultimately? Of course! But can the sport help, if possible? Well, yeah. And some DO.

Some of your comments, taken to their extreme, could be considered rather callous, y'know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>self-professed expert in communication <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep up the exaggeration, tle. Such techniques don't attack my character as much as they do yours, dear.

tle

Oct. 28, 2004, 09:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
Hardly, JAGold. The guidelines I found had to do with watching the person so signs of more serious injury. Sleepiness, sluggishness, bruising not initially apparent, increasing mental confusion, etc. Nothing at all that would involve liabilities, just proper treatment. Are you saying that it's grandma's responsibility to figure out what to do after Joey has taken a header into some rails on the baby novice course and if grandma doesn't know, then tough luck, Joey? Is it NOT grandma's responsibility, ultimately? Of course! But can the sport help, if possible? Well, yeah. And some DO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh... that's the job of the EMTs. That's why they're there! If grandma is being passed little joey after he was checked and released by the EMTs and grandma doesn't know what to do, perhaps the EMTs would be a MUCH better source of information than the organizer. The vet just checked my mare for an eye infection yesterday. who am I going to ask about followup care -- the vet or my barn owner?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>self-professed expert in communication <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Keep up the exaggeration, tle. Such techniques don't attack my character as much as they do yours, dear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
exaggeration??? You're the one who keeps reminding us that you've worked in communication for oh so long... like the rest of us can hardly put 2 words together by comparison. My character is just fine, thankyouverymuch. I neither need to defend it, nor do I need your approval. Of course, I also take personal responsibility for things that are my responsiblity -- rather than passing off embarrassing moments as the fault of any/everyone else but me.

horsemad!

Oct. 28, 2004, 09:57 AM

It might just be that some people take offence to the condescending tone of your posts, pwynn. And it might just be that the people who say you were embarrassed in front of potential clients because you didn’t know what to do or who to talk to - because your rider hadn’t prepared you and you hadn’t bothered to try and apprise yourself of the necessary procedures - were spot on. But what do I know? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

KellyS

Oct. 28, 2004, 09:58 AM

Well said Jess! And TLE, I hear you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pwynn, your posts demonstrate "How NOT to communicate." You've ostracized your audience through your snide remarks and comments. You're obviously enjoying the conflict and keep taunting those of us who've put together thoughtful and accurate replies. If nothing else, I certainly would avoid doing business with you and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way. If you're trying to create a market for your "eventing ponies," acting like this on a public forum makes me seriously question your business sense and experience in communication.

JAGold

Oct. 28, 2004, 10:02 AM

Yes, I am saying that, as you acknowledge, ultimately it is Grandma's responsibility. And I do think that having non medical professionals give out medical advice is a recipe for a lawsuit. I'm sure a lawyer will chime in eventually. I don't think the right way to help injured riders is to give out a sheet of generic instructions. I think the best way is to have qualified medical personel on grounds to provide emergency treatment if necessary, and for riders to make their own plans in case they need assistance beyond immediate, emergency care provided by the on-grounds personel.

If you want to consider my comments callous, go right ahead. I'm trying to stick to facts and leave emotions out of this discussion, and if you interpret that as callous, then so be it. This thread isn't the way I prove that I am a good and caring person.

And the comment about expertise in communications was mine, not TLE's. --Jess

tle

Oct. 28, 2004, 10:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JAGold:
And the comment about expertise in communications was mine, not TLE's. --Jess <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oops... sorry Jess. Didn't mean to take credit for your statement. If I didn't write that in an earlier post, I certainly thought it!! LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cweimer

Oct. 28, 2004, 10:09 AM

I have tried really hard to sit on my hands during this whole thing. But I do have a couple of thoughts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I would like to clarify one thing of huge importance though: why I brought up protocols. A lot of you chose to intrepret that to mean "tell me everything" when I was specifically talking about how very scary it is to deal with head injuries. Not broken legs. Not falls in general. Head injuries where the person is not making sense, especially progressively so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Had you perhaps clarified this in the beginning, a lot of folks might not have HAD TO make so many assumptions. It - to me - was truly unclear what the heck you wanted folks to do. So, in order to engage (unless you just wanted people to read and nod), assumptions had to be made.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> In a sport where head injuries aren't uncommon, having a published protocol for the laypeople who may have to deal with possibly serious head injuries that aren't immediately in evidence IS a good idea. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a bad idea at all, as you go on to explain in the rest of that para. To me though, this isn't a "protocol". This is a nifty sheet to hand out to someone, with some watchouts. I don't think it's something that should go into every competitor's packet, nor should it be something that you find in the program. But to have available when needed, okay. "Protocol" to me is an official thing that the people involved in the event need to know. Which, in the situation you described, would not include you.

[QUOTE} Next, sorry, folks, but I've now heard enough negative views on KHP to believe that it's not perfect. If that facility can't take some criticism, well, it does have a long way to go then. I wasn't expecting West Palm Beach--which is my all-time favorite show ground, I'll admit--but I wasn't expecting bad PA systems, obviously. Who WOULD? [/QUOTE]

Apparently, anyone who's been to KHP . . . I don't think anyone was saying that it's perfect. The reaction was the way you slammed it in your original post, in the heat of the vent. It isn't perfect, but then, what is?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> No, they were clueless about the things that would have enabled them to enjoy THE event, not eventing in general.

Which is why not knowing who was going when or where because of a faulty PA system (and, come to think of it, SIGNAGE would have been nice, too), left them too clueless to appreciate the novice, training, prelim, or how Buck Davidson did (a name they know) or when Prelim would do dressage, or how many were left to go in division X, etc., etc. Stuff, yeah, they'd come to EXPECT in a highly billed event like this one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could they not go to the secretary's stand? Even at a h/j show or a dressage show, that is where I would go to look for signage like that. I'm not sure - if I were hanging out in the stables, as you described - I would EXPECT to find that in the stables at any other venue. It's not at all unusual to find this type of info out at the secretary's stand - anywhere.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Sadly, people DO see eventing and event horses as something lesser--and the problem is you folks just don't seem to care! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What people? Where? Most of the people that I talk to think that eventing is DIFFERENT. Not lesser. They may choose not to participate, for a variety of reasons, but they certainly don't look down on me. They recognize that it's a different sport, with different requirements. And likely a different "feel". I've had people tell me I'm crazy http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif, but not lesser. And vague insinuations that "someone thinks you suck" don't really register that much to me. Honest, constructive views on how to create understanding and more broadscale support do.

Boy I wish I could say I thought that's what this thread was about, it would have been a great discussion.

JAGold

Oct. 28, 2004, 10:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tle:
Oops... sorry Jess. Didn't mean to take credit for your statement. If I didn't write that in an earlier post, I certainly thought it!! LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, no problem either way -- you know we eventers are good at sharing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif --Jess

fanfayre

Oct. 28, 2004, 11:01 AM

It behooves ALL of us- friends, parents, Romans, countrymen, owners, coaches, you get the point- to have first aid training of some type. It's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!
Here in Canada, certified coaches must have a valid first aid certificate. The basic first aid course is one day/evening, and expanding from there through a 2-day Standard course. These courses are available through St. John's ?Ambulance, which is a worldwide organization, I believe. If it's not, there is certainly an American equivalent. In these courses, head injuries is a subject, as is simple CPR, burns, sprains, strains, breaks, etc.
I reccommend, pwynn, if you haven't already done so, to sign up and attend one or more of these courses, than you will never have to worry about what to do ever again when faced with that same situation. You have then taken PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for assurring your rider is NOT left alone with a possible head injury, and can either get someone to take her to hospital, or to look after your horse while you take her yourself. The event organizers have taken on the reponsibility of hiring EMTs to provide on-site first aid. You could show the least bit of respect to your rider by learning the basics of first aid to assist her if necessary.
Off my soapbox now.

gahawkeye

Oct. 28, 2004, 11:37 AM

If I remember right, didn't Princess Anne take Zara to the hospital after she fell at an event this summer? Knocked her head a little bit and had an injured shoulder. After the medics checked her out they said she needed additional attention so her Mom took her to the hospital.

Yes I think it is personal responsibility.

Hilary

Oct. 29, 2004, 05:17 AM

I wasn't at this event, but almost every event I go to, down to the pre-elementary level prints a program that tells you what is happening, where and at what time. If the sponsors wanted to know when Buck Davidson was riding and in what ring, they would only have had to look him up in the program, then flip a couple of pages to a map (also usually provided) to see where "ring 2) is located!

If your potential sponsors expected ringside shaded seats with waiters bringing cocktails, I think YOU chose the wrong event. Groton House, for instance, has a sponsors tent, but not all events do. That's not necessarily the event's fault - perhaps they should look into it, but you should have known whether or not this amenity was going to be there.

dps

Oct. 29, 2004, 05:36 AM

I have to admit I sometimes can't find my dressage ring http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif but all I have to do is ask someone and they are more than happy to tell me. I have had people offer me rides to the x-try course or offer me food when we are trailered next to each other. I show alone and its nice to know that everyone is there together as a team. Almost always when I'm riding over to do my cross country who ever I pass coming back from riding it will smile and say have fun or good luck. This is my kind of sport and I love doing it and I don't like to hear people complain because they were not catered to. That's not what this sport is about. It's not who has the most money or the fanciest horse it's your average person and your average horse having fun.

SimpsoMatt

Oct. 29, 2004, 05:50 AM

For attracting spectators to the sport, the dayglo body stockings might work even better than waiving coats in dressage!

tractor queen

Oct. 29, 2004, 07:00 AM

Sounds like you are the one having a problem taking the "criticism" that you were the problem.

Since when is the CCI* at Kentucky a "highly billed event"? They don't even charge admission!

I think your criticism should be with the medics and, if deserved, I would make the organizer aware if you felt the care they gave was less than adequate so she can inform them directly. Normally, all the care I've either witnessed or received at events has been more than adequate - and mostly overly cautious (as it should be when a life is involved).

One persons' bad experience does not a consensus make. If you think the sport of eventing needs to be changed, consider that an awful lot of us like it just the way it is. It tends to weed out a lot of the "high maintenance" people right away and leave the rest of us in peace!

Sounds like an awful lot of people at the event knew what happened to your rider from listening to the PA. I've been at the horsepark plenty of times and the PA worked fine (rain & all).

Janet

Oct. 29, 2004, 07:08 AM

As several people have said, the medics are constrained by a bunch of legal issues. If the person is coherent, and refuses further treatment/observation, there is not a lot the medics can do besides say "I recommend ..."

Carol Ames

Oct. 29, 2004, 07:24 AM

Asas aurvivor of s tbi(trsumaticbraininjury), I find it shocking that a rider who is so obviously concussed would be allowed to walk away, regardless of how stubborn we are http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif !with hindsight I must say,though I protested vehemently at the time,aftr all, I had a new horse, and, the water was the next jump http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ; I had a fall wwhich, I was "sure" was"only " ribs, and collarbone, but, which I learned a few weeks later was actually a brokenneck, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif and, had I been allowed to continue on course would likely have beecome more severe than it was, think of the movements necessary to follow a horse through a water combination http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif ;so, thank you organizers, i can say that,, I was able to walk after my brokeneck, thank God! It was however my fall at Chesterland, 14 years earlier, which, convinced me of the the theimportance of having someone to help , even at horse trials, i had been rolled over by my horse, but, refused transport to the hospital, yes, i know it was dumb http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif !, but, there was no one else to care for my wonderful horse, who, had jumped so brilliantly up to that point, I thought that that only my leg had been injured, and, so tried to hobble around forweeks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif , though, i think I nearly died that night http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif , and, probably did suffer internal bruising, possibly worse, if there is such a thing;we do ften need to be protected from ourselves,and, the old ethic of pulling a rider out of a hospital bed to jump around stadium so that, the team getsa score which, sounded "heroic http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif when I was younger,but now only STUPId! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif , and so, I do hope that christan is referred to a goodneurologist, linden Wiesmans' dad is in KY, andthat she also finds a goodbrain injury injuryy asoc. to work with; http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif the most insidious head traumas are when we appear "fine http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif "there is good info on the web,search on braiinjury, or TBI. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

rebeginner

Oct. 29, 2004, 08:03 AM

Stripping away the specifics of the event to which the OP referred, and having read all of the posts, it seems to me that the OP has a vested interest in the sport doing a better job of making itself accessible to non-participants. I believe that the OP is a breeder of horses to compete in eventing; therefore, having eventing be a growing, accessible sport is important.

Taking the vitriol out of the discussion, it seems to me the argument can be simplified to, if the sport is to grow, it should be aware of issues that are not patently obvious to the non-participant, and address them.

I don't know whether many of those who post here want the sport to grow. However, bear in mind that Badminton is the second-largest sporting event in the world. (2d only to the Indianapolis 500, according to British Eventing.) Not just the largest equestrian event, not just the largest sporting event in the UK, a small country already interested in horses.

Rolex attracts fewer spectators than usually show up at * events in the UK. So, a * or ** in the US is small potatoes, spectator-wise.

I guess I find it surprising that so many of the posters here are so very defensive about the criticism of the sport raised by the OP, who is already an admitted fan of the sport. Is that perhaps a way of saying, I don't want to make my sport more accessible? I want to keep it small and intimate, so that only those in the know (participants and their knowledgeable guests) can get information.

That may be OK, too. I am a very low level rider, who has come to the sport in my dotage. I have mixed feelings about growing the sport, but I think examining the issues that the sport presents to outsiders is not an all-bad thing.

tractor queen

Oct. 29, 2004, 08:43 AM

--just to clarify...I wasn't saying the medics nec. did anything wrong...just that if it were me, and I felt it was deserving I would tell organizer. For example this is how it always works when I have jumped judged:

Jump judge briefing in the AM goes over this procedure every time:

If a rider falls the jump judge radios it in to control immediately of rider fall and if a medic is needed and then takes radio with them to check on rider. Jump judge radios in for medics if needed.

TD, safety coordinator, medics all make their way to the fence. Control decides if they need to place a hold on the course.

By this time an announcement has usually been made that "rider # is down at fence # , and advises if there is a hold on course.

Rider is assesed by jump judge and advised whether or not they may continue without seeing the medics. If not allowed to continue the jump judge starts tracking the time so if the rider is allowed to continue the extra time for the medic check can be deducted. This is done so the rider will not get irrate if an overcautious jump judge calls for a medic.

Medics arrive and take control of rider.

Once the course is clear the announcer advises that the course is open and the next rider is given a 5 min warning to get warmed up.

TD and safety coordinator record details and report accident in their final report to USEA.

There are specific rules about falls which must be recorded by th rider in their medical armband, and for how long a rider must abstain from competing after a concussion.

So medics would be negligent if:

1) They had let my rider remount without asking the usual questions to see if she was coherent. Jump judges also have the authority to stop anyone from continuing if they see fit until a medic has checked them out.
2) Without invoking the time out period (if warranted) to competely assess if she was safe to continue - this is where the jump judges keep track of the time while the rider is "assessed" to deduct from their total time later (if they are allowed to continue).
3) If not letting her continue, they should release her to someone to watch over her and be sure to relay that the rider must see a doctor to get thoroughly checked out. Most events require a hospital visit if the medic says it is warranted before allowing a rider to continue ( say you fell off in warmup).

Usually the TD, safety coordinator as well as medics make haste to any fall and are there to help locate parents/friends/spouses to assist. Who - by the by- usually beat all of them to the fence to check on their rider!

I am not minimizing the injury in any way...but come on folks if the rider says she is OK, they can't force her to do anything (especially if she is coherent at the time).

When I got knocked out, I got put in an ambulance for not remembering the President's name. But I had a signed release/consent to treat form on file with the person in charge (who was there) (form from the USEA omnibus {required for our adult rider clinics} and she told the medics to take me {over my protests}. I am very glad. Turns out it was "normal" ST memory loss and I graduaully regained memory {in the ambulance in fact}...but it was too late - they wouldn't let me out http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif - I also asked the same questions over & over and that is also "normal" - my friend was very patient - if she had been short or yelled (like Christian's nurse) I would have cried a river! I was so confused and yelling won't help...most trauma nurses (my other friend is one) are well aware of this - so I would complain to the hospital about the nurse as well. Being short with a patient is unprofessional and may very well make things worse.

BTW - Christian must report this concussion in her medical armband (riders responsibility - not medic) and I believe there is a waiting period before she can compete again. The rules are in the rule book USEA & FEI as it will depend on what rules the next competition are under as to whether a doctors release may be required.

Just an aside - Football is a major spectator sport and I don't recall them handing out flyers on the effects of a concussion to the sponsors!

I think all we are saying here is for the original poster to take some personal responsibility, she should have there quicker for her rider and paying attention to where horse and rider were on course and what their progress was. I usually stand behind someone with a radio (or by a fence judge) so I can easily keep up over the radios.

No one I know goes to their first CCI* alone or without a lot of knowledgeable help. Eventers help each other a lot, all you have to do is ask!

saruman

Oct. 29, 2004, 10:55 AM

tractor queen you have a PT

Gnep

Oct. 29, 2004, 07:11 PM

P,
Sounds to me like one of those people taht have to have constant information fed to them, Cellphone Junky.
I think everybody appreciates that you love the sport.

It always sucks if one of us hits the dirt hard, even worse if you know that person. We all understand to well the need for instant information in a situation like that.

But if I am the next one in the startbox, I just don't want to know and don't want to hear it broadcasted over the PA in all its sh... detail. Its already enough if there is a lengthy stop. Everybody knows the sh hit the fan.

If the organizers canceled the steepelchase because of the weather and footing, they should be congratulated for their heads up decision.

If one wants information, one can get the information, there is always plenty of people around that have radios, the badge of officials.

I think you lost your head instead of using it, and you sound a little bit like a kiddo whos toy got broken.

J Swan

Oct. 30, 2004, 04:54 AM

It's certainly understandable that you are upset. Perhaps this could be an opportunity for you, as an owner, to get more involved in the sport. As a passive observer, it's often difficult to understand the ins and outs of how competitions are organized and run.

From where I sit, no one did anything wrong. It really isn't appropriate for the announcer to blurt out who is injured, to what extent, etc. I certainly wouldn't want an announcer to start screaming that I'm gushing blood or not breathing or something. Particularly since medical info is confidential, the announcer isn't an MD, and the announcer merely needs to say Hold On Course. Details are only relevant to the people involved. Announcer's announce. They are not sportscasters.

What you're describing is what happens with all accidents. Equine related or not.

An accident happens. EMT's remove the injured person to the hospital. Accident is cleaned up - and normal traffic resumes. Cops don't announce who got hurt, who's at fault, etc - they just wave you through and yell at you to stop rubbernecking. While person is receiving medical attention, attempts are made to contact family.

And horse folks in general will drop everything they are doing to help you if you just ask.

I do hope the rider is ok - the horse too.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 1, 2004, 09:25 AM

Thanks, rebeginner.

Bensmom

Nov. 1, 2004, 11:09 AM

I have been sitting on my hands through the entire thread, but I believe I heard Jess call for a lawyer . . . http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

The point that it would not be appropriate for the event to hand out an information sheet covering "things to watch for" where head injuries are concerned is correct. The event is not, and cannot be, in the position of dispensing what is, in essence, medical advice.

However, if you think such a "protocol" card would be useful, I think you have two options. The first is to produce a packet, such as this for your own barn, or riding group. I've done this in the form of having our trainer now have every student fill out the USEA medical release form and provide information on treating docs, allergies, and/or hospital preference in case they have to be transported. That lives in a big notebook with the liability releases and student information. I have also researched head injuries and because they are a big deal in other sports now, there are several web sites with good information in a "psa" type format that you can print out and share within your group.

The second option would be to approach the USEA safety committee with this idea. Perhaps if such a list of signs/cautions was developed, the safety officer for the event could make sure and locate a rider that has had a fall and do a double check on them as they reach the barn area and hand out such a "psa" or protocol of things to watch for to grooms or family members.

I'm involved with volunteering heavily at our local event, and we do several of the things that have been suggested here. One of them is that once a rider has been released on course and heads back to the barn, the emt's stationed in the barn area are radioed the rider's info and get the stall information from us as the barn office (actually, I've started preparing a list of rider numbers cross referenced with stall numbers and make sure that law enforcement/emt's have that list saturday morning, so that they emt's can find the riders themselves even more quickly) They then run through the mental alertness check with the rider a second time, after some time has elapsed.

It is a great system and so far, seems to work very well.

We also have a docent system, where we have volunteers that ride the shuttle wagons with the spectators as they are being taken to cross country on saturday to explain the sport and to answer questions. They are part of a larger eventing 101 group of volunteers who maintain a booth right where the tickets are sold to answer questions and hand out exploratory information.

In addition, we have riders who volunteer their time to stand in three marked spots on xc and answer spectator questions. We also have tons of signs and a great program.

Our regular volunteers wear the bright yellow vests and are pretty visible. Our event sponsors get a private shuttle over to xc with docents to drive them and explain/answer questions.

Now, there are several answers to your complaints, other than that about the PA system. The problem with these answers is that they require a personal commitment.

Want a safety protocol for head injuries? Go to the safety committee (as an aside, since the appropriate person to ask lurks around here -- would my idea work?)

Want more education for spectators? Raise the money, find the sponsors and most of all VOLUNTEER your time. We put on one of the most spectator/owner friendly events *anywhere* -- but do you have any idea how many people it takes to make that happen? Over *400* and we aren't a three day. We even have a special appointed volunteer committee to meet/greet owners of horses and to make sure they are properly seen to. The stabling staff couldn't spend enough time, so our organizers found a couple of folks who will do nothing else but make sure that that function is covered.

One of the problems about complaining/venting around our barn is that the answer frequently heard is "I'm so glad you raised that concern, and thank you for volunteering to head the committee to solve that problem." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

subk

Nov. 1, 2004, 03:44 PM

I'd like to confirm that Libby and her team opperate what has to be the most spectator and rider friendly event in the country! You go honey...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
One of the problems about complaining/venting around our barn is that the answer frequently heard is "I'm so glad you raised that concern, and thank you for volunteering to head the committee to solve that problem." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is my most effective (non-parenting) line. You didn't like something about Vacation Bible School? "I am so happy you care enough to bring that up because we're looking for a volunteer to head it up next year." Shuts 'em down everytime!

Since I'm sure I've got you wondering, my most effective parenting line is a toss up between "I hate that for you." and "Honey, it's not about you." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Those might work here too...

Bensmom

Nov. 1, 2004, 07:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I'd like to confirm that Libby and her team opperate what has to be the most spectator and rider friendly event in the country! You go honey...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aw, shucks. :blush: Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The coolest thing to me about it is that we do it all with volunteer labor, and I forgot to mention above -- an *incredible* amount of cooperation with the city, the county, the hospital, the newspaper, the television stations. Our organizers have done the most amazing job pulling this together. I think it could be studied and replicated to an extent -- not exactly, at least until someone clones our dynamic duo http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But, it is a good example of how some of the things pwynn would like to see happen, can happen, but you have to be willing to put your time on the line, and get others to do the same.

Many of our volunteers are non-horsey. Lots of them have grown to love the sport through the time they spend working in their various areas of our event. But, and this is a big BUT, many places simply don't want to become such a big "to-do" and run more competitor oriented events.

And that's ok too -- you just maybe need to know *which* events to bring your potential sponsors to, rather than expecting the whole sport to change.

We only run one event a year for a reason. You couldn't possibly "go to the well" in terms of time/money/effort more than once a year and have it go as well as it does. You've mentioned Wellington/WPB as one of your favorite events. It only runs once a year as well, and has lots more cash $ behind it than most events -- I don't think they depend quite as heavily as eventing does on volunteers. I know that H/J shows at a lower level do -- some of the hardest working volunteers I know are local H/J show moms and dads, but that isn't who is putting on the type of show you wanted to take your potential sponsors to, is it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> That is my most effective (non-parenting) line. You didn't like something about Vacation Bible School? "I am so happy you care enough to bring that up because we're looking for a volunteer to head it up next year." Shuts 'em down everytime!

Since I'm sure I've got you wondering, my most effective parenting line is a toss up between "I hate that for you." and "Honey, it's not about you." Those might work here too... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I just *knew* you were my kind of mom! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif We weren't very popular as the officers of the local affiliation "oh, you want better notification of when it is your student's ride time? Thanks so much for volunteering to be dressage warm up steward! We've had such a hard time finding someone to do that job . . ." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif People stopped complaining eventually and we got more done! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Libby