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Kyzteke
Apr. 16, 2011, 02:30 PM
Just browsing Dreamscape Farm's website.

Quite impressed with their young stallion Sir Gregory in terms of conformation and movement. Then looked at his pedigree.

Pretty heavily linebred. Donnerhall 3 x2 plus SG's dam (Premiere) is a result of a half-sib to half-sib breeding!

BOth her sire (Don Gregory) and her dam (Pandora) are o/o the mare Granete.

Don't usually see this sort of linebreeding in warmbloods and I found it very interesting.

Any info on Granete? They must have thought very highly of her to try this, and apparently it worked out well. Not only has she produced Premiere, but Premiere herself has produced multiple SPS mares and, of course, an approved stallion.

BTW, anyone seen Sir Greg. in person? Love to hear feedback.

Edgewood
Apr. 16, 2011, 04:36 PM
I researched Sir Gregory a lot (bred to him last year for a 2011 foal). I had not been able to find much on Granate, outside of the fact that she produced Don Gregory plus some other offspring.

I also thought that the breeder must have felt very highly of her to breed Premiere, who is line bred to Granate.

FWIW, Premiere has actually produced 3 licensed stallions. Sir Gregory, Don Romeo and a 2008 Sandro Hit stallion that sold for about 80,000 Euros last year at GOV licensing

Don Romeo is on this website (also linebred to Donnerhall and Granate like SG)
http://www.reitstallkruse.de/pferde/deckhengst2.htm

Kyzteke
Apr. 16, 2011, 10:54 PM
I researched Sir Gregory a lot (bred to him last year for a 2011 foal). I had not been able to find much on Granate, outside of the fact that she produced Don Gregory plus some other offspring.

I also thought that the breeder must have felt very highly of her to bred Premiere, who is line bred to Granate.

FWIW, Premiere has actually produced 3 licensed stallions. Sir Gregory, Don Romeo and a 2008 Sandro Hit stallion that sold for about 80,000 Euros last year at GOV licensing

Don Romeo is on this website (also linebred to Donnerhall and Granate like SG)
http://www.reitstallkruse.de/pferde/deckhengst2.htm

Really? They didn't mention this on the Dreamscape site, just the SPS mares she has produced. So that linebreeding thing really paid off for them.

When is your foal due? What sort of mare did you breed to him?

I have my stallions bought and paid for this year, but really am considering him for 2012. I like alot about him and his pedigree is very strong.

Edgewood
Apr. 16, 2011, 11:01 PM
Really? They didn't mention this on the Dreamscape site, just the SPS mares she has produced. So that linebreeding thing really paid off for them.

When is your foal due? What sort of mare did you breed to him?

I have my stallions bought and paid for this year, but really am considering him for 2012. I like alot about him and his pedigree is very strong.

I emailed Jennifer last fall about Don Romeo, I came across him by googling Premiere with her DE registration #. Jennifer didn't know about him at the time. The SH - Premiere son just was licensed in the fall 2010, so she probably hasn't updated her website yet. I downloaded his GOV licensing PDF document if you are interested, I could email it to you.

I have a leased Rio Grande - Rollicking xx mare bred to him that is due in about 3-4 weeks. Her owner was riding at the barn in Germany where SG was trained before importation and really loved him. So I was already thinking of breeding to him when she offered me the lease.

He is a really lovely stallion and both my friend, who rides successfully at GP, and Holly Simenson had very good comments regarding Sir Gregory.

Kyzteke
Apr. 16, 2011, 11:17 PM
I emailed Jennifer last fall about Don Romeo, I came across him by googling Premiere with her DE registration #. Jennifer didn't know about him at the time. The SH - Premiere son just was licensed in the fall 2010, so she probably hasn't updated her website yet. I downloaded his GOV licensing PDF document if you are interested, I could email it to you.

I have a leased Rio Grande - Rollicking xx mare bred to him that is due in about 3-4 weeks. Her owner was riding at the barn in Germany where SG was trained before importation and really loved him. So I was already thinking of breeding to him when she offered me the lease.

He is a really lovely stallion and both my friend, who rides successfully at GP, and Holly Simenson had very good comments regarding Sir Gregory.

Interesting choice for him. Are you breeding for jumping or dressage?

I have 2 mares (half-sibs) that I would consider for him. Both are o/o a Batido (Bolero) mare. One is by Weltmeyer and one is by Rubino Bellisamo (Rubinstein). Both look like he would fit phenotypically.

Yes, I would love to see Premiere's info. I'll PM you with my email addie.

DO keep me posted on the foal -- in fact, if you have any pics of your mare I'd love to see them.

Edgewood
Apr. 16, 2011, 11:37 PM
DO keep me posted on the foal -- in fact, if you have any pics of your mare I'd love to see them.

For the Rio Grande mare, I am hoping for a nice dressage horse that also has good jumping skills. She had lovely Rousseau and Soprano foals already. And also, many Oldenburg breeders seem to infuse a fair amount on good moving jumper blood.

But, FWIW, I initially inquired of my friend in Germany for a dressage bred mare (would have line bred to G line, Graphit) to Sir Gregory. But when my friend offered the lease on her mare, I took her up on it, since this mare had proven foals on the ground whereas my mare is a maiden, so I went with a more proven stallion (Royal Prince).

The mares are here:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze85onr/our_mares.html

Rio Grande mare is Razzle Dazzle and the one I will probably breed to Sir Gregory eventually, but decided on Royal Prince for now, is Panache.

Kyzteke
Apr. 16, 2011, 11:43 PM
Rio Grande mare is Razzle Dazzle and the one I will probably breed to Sir Gregory eventually, but decided on Royal Prince for now, is Panache.

I see Razzle Dazzle has Roberto up close!

Love him and another fine example of linebreeding.

Edgewood
Apr. 16, 2011, 11:53 PM
I see Razzle Dazzle has Roberto up close!

Love him and another fine example of linebreeding.

Yes, very interesting linebreeding on Roberto, especially to the mares Plucky Liege (x3) through her sons Bull Dog, Sir Gallahad, and Admiral Drake and Mumtaz Begum through Nearco and a daughter. And then of course to Nearco and Blue Larkspur.

DownYonder
Apr. 17, 2011, 07:38 AM
Premiere is actually inbred, since her sire and dam had the same mother (Granate).

And she was apparently linebred only twice to Donnerhall - results were the 2004 stallion Don Romio (Don Romantic) and the 2005 stallion Sir Gregory (Sir Donnerhall I).

Paardenfokken doesn't list the the year of birth for her two fillies, but they were both sired by Sandro Hit, as was the 2008 unnamed stallion. I am wondering they were born in 2006 and 2007, or if they are more recent models. Also wonder if she is still producing - she is 17 y/o this year.

As for Sir Gregory - I have also heard from numerous sources that he is a REALLY good stallion, and should produce very nicely given his own excellent physical and mental attributes and his very strong genotype.

springer
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:43 AM
I'm breeding my 4 yr old Balta Czar mare to him next month. Love him! From what I've seen so far, he has some very nice offspring-

Kyzteke
Apr. 17, 2011, 10:54 AM
Premiere is actually inbred, since her sire and dam had the same mother (Granate).


Well, you know what they say: it's linebreeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't!:D

No one has ever actually given me a definite separation between the two. What if it's grandsire to grandaughter - is that linebreeding or inbreeding. Where is the line drawn?

Either way, this seems to have worked great in the case of both Premiere and SG. Lovely horses and, in the case of Premiere (and her dam) obviously top class producers.

rodawn
Apr. 17, 2011, 12:06 PM
There was obviously something known about the mare Granate that prompted the breeder to breed this closely. She must have been known to have some extremely remarkable, highly desirable traits. Inbreeding that closely makes certain genes more available to passing on to future offspring, thus increasing the incidence of desired genes to be passed on to the future foal - in this case, the mare, Premiere. And this is exactly what happened, since Premiere is an awarded mare.

Sir Gregory is a remarkable stallion. He has some pretty lovely foals on the ground in Europe and a few have been born already in North America just this spring. We will be breeding to him this spring.

You could inbreed once and get, say, a filly. That filly would then have to be outcrossed to a stallion that had very few of the same genetics as she contained. You would not want, for example, to breed your inbred filly to a stallion who was also inbred with the same family line. That's drawing the line and risking some really weird defects.

You could use a stallion who might be inbred to a different family line if you really happened to like the traits of that family. But most breeders don't even do this. Your resultant foal would be inbred once on top to Family A and inbred once on the bottom to Family B. From there, you would have little choice but to outcross to an entirely different family for the grandfoal. Too much inbreeding is linebreeding gone awry. Inbreeding is when a horse is doubled up within the 1st generation, i.e. a stallion and mare bred together who were both sired by the same stallion, or who were both born of the same mare. Pandora and DonGregory are out of the same mare (Granate). There is little new blood in this pairing. Thus Premiere carried 50% blood of Granate and her other 50% came from other sources. That's pretty dense.

It's line breeding if 2 or more generations back there is a repeated name.
Sir Gregory has Donnerhall appearing once on top and once on bottom, but 3 generations back. There is a hefty mix of fresh genes to add to the Donnerhall genes.

Interestingly if you look up Sir Gregory's blood mix, even though he was linebred to Donnerhall, and inbred with Granate (and thus inbred with Graphit), he interestingly is calculated to carry 25% blood of Donnerhall, 12.5% of Graphit, 12.5% of the mare Aufnahme, and 3% of Ramiro. His father line is family #1702 which is Darley Arabian. His mother line is incompletely known but listed as the Morgenstrahl mare. He has an ancestor loss of only 23-31% ... this means he has a strong ability to pass on the highly desired Donnerhall-Graphit family traits.

When you're breeding a mare to him, it is because you REALLY like Graphit and you REALLY like Donnerhall. Because you're going to get a foal with those general familyline traits.

Kyzteke
Apr. 17, 2011, 12:26 PM
There was obviously something known about the mare Granate that prompted the breeder to breed this closely. She must have been known to have some extremely remarkable, highly desirable traits.

Yes, Edgewood and I were discussing this. Unfortunately neither of us have been able to find out much about Granate. Since this sort of cross is rare in WB breeding (not so much in Arabian or even TBs), this was a big risk for the breeder to take and really thinking outside the box.

I would LOVE to hear more about Granate or find a pic. How would we go about doing that? Any way to track down her Reg.#?

As for "the next step" with a mare bred this close, an outcross can produce great, but I've also known many fine horses that trace back to one or two horses MANY times. Mostly (again) in the Arab breed...I had Arab mares with something like 20 crosses to horses like Abu Farwa & such. And they did this by going "back to the well" over and over again.

My "main" Arab mare has 3 crosses to Bask+++ in 4-5 generations, and I would not hesitate to cross her to a double bred-Bask stallion if he suited her phenotypically and was a sound, well-formed animal. In fact, I would do that rather than go to a total outcross in many cases. Bask+++ is proven to produce very, VERY tough, sound performance horses -- you can't kill 'em, although you might WANT to!;) They can be really spicy, but once you have that working for you, it's golden.

Back on track - I am so pleased to be hearing all these good things about SG. He's definitely on my short list for '12.

Dutch
Apr. 17, 2011, 01:07 PM
Sir Gregory impressed me from the first time I saw his video. That he is performing successfully in the show ring is even better! I'll get to see one of his offspring first-hand when my Ster KWPN-NA Idocus x Wanroij mare foals in June.

rodawn
Apr. 17, 2011, 01:22 PM
I can't find too much on Granate herself, but I can tell you a few things about some of the members of her family, who made her who she was.

Her grandfather, the stallion, Grande, produced a highly remarkable number of offspring who went to international Grand Prix Dressage and Show Jumping ring. In the 2000 Olympics, 6 of his grandkids were in the medals in the dressage ring alone. In 2004, I counted at least 4 of grandkids in the Olympic Dressage ring and I believe 3 of those medalled. The Elite Mare, Brentina, is a great-granddaughter of Grande. He, himself, was a performer. I only have pictures of him after he retired and he was quite fat and not looking very handsome at all, but he outproduced himself many times over. He descends from the great Goldschlagger who basically revolutionized the G-line. Goldschlagger was responsible for producing the Graf lineage, who went on to produce huge jumping and dressage stars. His grandson, Grande, looked like a jumper, but produced equally talented dressage horses as well. This line was known for it's big neck, round body shape, superior temperament and rideability.

Then you get Duellant. He was famous for his HUGE ground-covering trot, exceptional expression. Duellant produced exceptional states premium mares, but really became known for producing stallions - he sired (at least) 42 of them and ALL of them were great - Duft, Duden, Dezember, Derby, just to name a very few. He sired the highly awarded state premium mare, Duellfest, who was Grande's mother.

The stallion, Fling, is in Granate's pedigree. He is named as one of the 12 elite foundational influential stallions used by the CWHBA in their identification process of proving warmbloods as a distinct breed in Canada. Fling was an exceptionally handsome horse of his day and known for temperament, movement, athletic abilities, and for producing many, many state premium mares, and elite stallions, the most famous one being Feiner Kerl, as well as Flugfuer I, II, and Flintenstein I, II, and III. Fling carries grandpa stallion, King twice - once in his sireline and once in his damline to bring in some TB influence (he was 1/2 TB, sired by TB stallion, Kingdom). And at this point, we're getting so far back there's nothing for information and only hand-drawings for pictures. Great mares of distinction back then were named after their farm - Morgenstrahl Mare, Hanlon Mare, Norfolk Mare, etc. And these particular 3 great mares are in Granate's lineage.

Fling and F-line began the famous W line of today - Weltmeyer and kind.

Interesting note: The Elite Mare, Brentina, also carries Fling's blood through Feiner Kerl twice because Grande has Fling on top and bottom of his pedigree.

So this is an extraordinary family tree which carries a heavy propensity to pass on the same certain gifted traits time and time again in rather reliable fashion. Donnerhall was merely the product of this exceptionally strong line that was carefully nutured in Germany for many generations as was thus Don Gregory. We see these traits in Sir Gregory - namely, big gaits, exceptional temperament, strong competitive nature, very athletic and dressage-talented. Of his foals that I've seen, they are stamped pretty much in line with D-line traits. And, from what I have seen, I would say the D, F and G line powerfully controls whatever influence the S line might have brought to the table, except perhaps that S add some lightness and blood.

It was a smart choice of the breeder of Sir Donnerhall to breed his powerful D-F line mare to Sandro Hit to produce SirD I and also SirDII. This influence improved the hindquarter a bit which Sandro Hit is a bit weak in. Then in turn, the owner of the inbred mare Premiere, knowing she had very dense, powerfully influential D and G lineage that she would most likely be the most overwhelming influence against any stallion she was bred to, in this case, Sir Donnerhall, which resulted in Sir Gregory. I would say, they're very correct. Smart breeding all around.

Horses like this are a gift to North America and we're very fortunate that the Arnold's were able to snatch him like they did. It's quite the coup.

It should also noted of one other very great and influential stallion is located in Sir Gregory's motherline and that is the Anglo-Arabian Stallion, Inschallah, who was enormously influential in athletic calibre, temperament, durability and addition of some refinement.

Kyzteke
Apr. 17, 2011, 02:20 PM
Thus Premiere carried 50% blood of Granate and her other 50% came from other sources. That's pretty dense.


Rodawn: first of all, thanks so much for your detailed information on Granate's pedigree in your post below. GREAT information.

But here is a question I've long wondered about in terms of linebreeding/inbreeding: if Granate was the actual dam of Premiere her blood would be just as "dense" (ie, 50%) and no one would worry about it. So why the issue this time?

My thought was always that linebreeding/inbreeding is not only used to intensify blood, but also to keep available the genetic package from a horse who may no longer be available.

So even if you have 30 crosses to a horse in a many generations, you may still only have 15-30% of his/her blood, which (to me) is not dangerous.

Again, I don't want to de-rail my own thread with an in-depth discussion of linebreeding, but it's a question I always wondered about.

RunningwaterWBs
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:54 PM
Thanks for this fascinating discussion! My Dutch keur mare is in foal to Sir Gregory and due in June. It's great to learn so much more about his bloodlines. Can anyone find pictures of the mares? I'd particularly like to see Granate.

Cindy's Warmbloods
Apr. 17, 2011, 10:17 PM
I have a Sir Gregory foal due in a couple of weeks out of a Rambo mare. Really excited to see what baby is like!

Gayle in Oregon
Apr. 17, 2011, 11:12 PM
I have a 16.1hh black/bay mare in foal to him and she may, may??? foal tonight but its only 327 days. She is T/B by Birdonthewire and she graded premium score with the GOV. She has amazing gaits, cadence, and is remarkably balanced in the canter. But, she has a big walk and exceptional trot, too with a quick and active hind leg. I am really hoping for something special. I like the line breeding in Sir G especially on an outcross such as my mare. We shall see in a few hours or days. I will post pics on this thread and the new foals as well as soon as I get my new foal.

I agree he is a gift to North American breeders.

stolensilver
Apr. 18, 2011, 04:13 AM
It should also noted of one other very great and influential stallion is located in Sir Gregory's motherline and that is the Anglo-Arabian Stallion, Inschallah, who was enormously influential in athletic calibre, temperament, durability and addition of some refinement.

FWIW Inschallah and his most famous son Inschallah II were both know for their very difficult temperament and explosive sharpness. Even professionals were wary of horses by these two. If you got a good one they were exceptional but many of them were close to unrideable.

Kyzteke
Apr. 18, 2011, 04:33 AM
FWIW Inschallah and his most famous son Inschallah II were both know for their very difficult temperament and explosive sharpness. Even professionals were wary of horses by these two. If you got a good one they were exceptional but many of them were close to unrideable.

Well, both Rohdiamont & his full brother Royal Diamond are o/o an Inschallah mare and the VERY ammie-friendly producing stallion IDEAL is by Inschallah, so I'm not so sure your info is correct.

Ideal is not producing much any more, but in his time he was one of the most popular stallions in America and literally produced 100's of foals, most of whom went to ammie owners/riders. I bred a TB mare to him and got a great colt (turned gelding) who would turn himself inside out for his rider.

So this certainly doesn't match what I have experienced with Inschallah horses.

stolensilver
Apr. 18, 2011, 05:02 AM
I assure you I'm speaking the truth. I'm talking about all of the offspring and what he tended to throw, you are talking about the offspring from his best, preselected stock. Big difference!

DownYonder
Apr. 18, 2011, 06:02 AM
Routinier is linebred to Inschallah AA (by the Inschallah grandson Rohdiamant, and out of the Inschallah daughter Cancellaresca). I have always heard that he is a big sweetie.

But I'm not sure why it is necessary to disparage Inschallah on this thread about Sir Gregory. He is FIVE generations back in Sir G's pedigree, and there have been nothing but raves about Sir G's temperament, character, and rideability.

And I also have heard Sir G described by some extremely knowledgeable people as a "gift" for North America who would have never left Germany if he had been bigger and dark in color. The breeders loss in Germany is our gain. :cool:

stolensilver
Apr. 18, 2011, 07:06 AM
Apologies for the tangent DY. I think it is an important one though. It shows the difference between knowing about the very best a stallion can produce but not being able to find out about the rest of that stallion's produce.

As I said Ischallah's best were incredible horses and those seem to be the ones that have been bred on from. But many others were so sharp they verged on dangerous. It is this sort of knowledge that is so important when choosing a stallion. Don't look at his best offspring. Look at the smaller auctions, the less famous studs and see what he usually throws. And then decide whether you would be happy with one of his average offspring or not because, lets face it, you are far more likely to get an average offspring than you are one of his top 1%. That's the law of statistics.

selah
Apr. 18, 2011, 09:48 AM
Apologies for the tangent DY. I think it is an important one though. It shows the difference between knowing about the very best a stallion can produce but not being able to find out about the rest of that stallion's produce.

As I said Ischallah's best were incredible horses and those seem to be the ones that have been bred on from. But many others were so sharp they verged on dangerous. It is this sort of knowledge that is so important when choosing a stallion. Don't look at his best offspring. Look at the smaller auctions, the less famous studs and see what he usually throws. And then decide whether you would be happy with one of his average offspring or not because, lets face it, you are far more likely to get an average offspring than you are one of his top 1%. That's the law of statistics.

All of the wonderfully trainable Inschallah-line horses mentioned in this thread were crossed with Rubenstein...very purposefully, if Inschallah was known to be difficult, as Rubenstein is known to stamp a wonderful disposition and trainability through generations.
IMHO, it would be more helpful to know who Inschallah was bred to to get the "...many others were so sharp they verged on dangerous."

Emy
Apr. 18, 2011, 10:11 AM
I am a fan of SG! We have a Harvard mare due in June and are getting excited for the cross! The Fresh Semen we recieved was of very good quality which is a big plus in my books.

As to Donnerhall linebreeding, one of THE very best St.Pr. mares we have ever had is a (Dormello x Donnerschwee). She is pretty, leggy, elegant, a super mover and hands down one of the kindest mares I have ever known. It made me change my thoughts on linebreeding, like many have stated; when it works it works well.

Kyzteke
Apr. 18, 2011, 10:55 AM
All of the wonderfully trainable Inschallah-line horses mentioned in this thread were crossed with Rubenstein...very purposefully, if Inschallah was known to be difficult, as Rubenstein is known to stamp a wonderful disposition and trainability through generations.
IMHO, it would be more helpful to know who Inschallah was bred to to get the "...many others were so sharp they verged on dangerous."

Again, not to dispargage SG and I wouldn't worry a bit even about "bad" Inschallah in his pedigree since it's one time and buried in the 5th or 6th generation.

I mean, I had a great-great-great uncle on my grandfather's side who killed a guy, but that sure doesn't make me an axe murderer.

But again, I must point out Ideal, who has Zeus on his bottom-side and no "R" line what-so-ever. He was picked out by the (then) breeding director of the Oldenburg Verband for importation into the States and over the years produced many hundreds of foals in the USA o/o all sorts of mares. Almost all those foals were ammie owned and operated (as was Ideal himself).

So if the "law of averages" was to apply, Ideal was bound to have produced quite afew nasties, and, in some 20yrs of breeding, he has not.

So again, maybe there are some devil Inschallahs out there, but I would not say (from my experience) they are the norm.

And back on track -- I am thrilled to hear all the great reports about SG -- I almost wish I didn't already have stallions for 2011 booked. Can't wait to see his foals.

Lynnwood
Apr. 18, 2011, 10:58 AM
FWIW Inschallah and his most famous son Inschallah II were both know for their very difficult temperament and explosive sharpness. Even professionals were wary of horses by these two. If you got a good one they were exceptional but many of them were close to unrideable.

We have a mare by Pinshcallah who was by an Inschallah son Procureur and while we all know that more goes into a horse then just sire line she could not be farther from the above statement. She spent her whole life as a A/A and A/O hunter and eq horse. The last time we used her was after two foals and multiple years off out of the pasture and into the ring with no prep. She is pretty a fantastic mover great use of body and legs o/f's. I would never shy away from another Inschallah bred horse matter of fact I seek them out :)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/in+a+pinch2

Kyzteke
Apr. 18, 2011, 11:03 AM
Sorry -- double post!

selah
Apr. 18, 2011, 11:09 AM
Just to clarify...I had never heard of a difficult temperment regarding Inschallah or any of his descendants, before those statements were made by another poster here on this thread.
I was asking what bloodlines Inschallah might have been crossed with to produce the difficult horses of whom the other poster seemed to have personal knowledge.
Actually...the following statement can be found on the web regarding Inschallah:

In 1995, Germany's former Oldenburg breeding manager and former Oldenburg N.A. breeding manager, Dr. Roland Ramsauer, said "Inschallah blood is currently very popular with European breeders. Inschallah' s impeccable temperament has been successfully and consistently showing up in generation after generation of his offspring. Breeders have discovered that although there are excellent moving stallions available, there has been some problems with unsuitable temperament. The Inschallah blood produces enormous gaits and solid conformation, but it also produces very suitable sport horse temperament.

Inschallah has been described by people who know him as a kind and intelligent stallion eager to please and careful with handlers. His offspring are collectively considered quite intelligent and very oriented to be around people.
http://www.oldenburghorses.com/Inschallah.htm

Kyzteke
Apr. 18, 2011, 11:18 AM
Just to clarify...I had never heard of a difficult temperment regarding Inschallah or any of his descendants, before those statements were made by another poster here on this thread.
I was asking what bloodlines Inschallah might have been crossed with to produce the difficult horses of whom the other poster seemed to have personal knowledge.
Actually...the following statement can be found on the web regarding Inschallah:

In 1995, Germany's former Oldenburg breeding manager and former Oldenburg N.A. breeding manager, Dr. Roland Ramsauer, said "Inschallah blood is currently very popular with European breeders. Inschallah' s impeccable temperament has been successfully and consistently showing up in generation after generation of his offspring. Breeders have discovered that although there are excellent moving stallions available, there has been some problems with unsuitable temperament. The Inschallah blood produces enormous gaits and solid conformation, but it also produces very suitable sport horse temperament.

Inschallah has been described by people who know him as a kind and intelligent stallion eager to please and careful with handlers. His offspring are collectively considered quite intelligent and very oriented to be around people.
http://www.oldenburghorses.com/Inschallah.htm


Selah, thanks for posting this. Again, this has been my personal experience with his get/grand-get.

And now, back to our star: SIR GREGORY! :D

stolensilver
Apr. 18, 2011, 03:15 PM
I have most knowledge of Inschallah II and he was mainly crossed with TBs as that was the major mare base at the time. This was quite a few years ago!

When they were good they were very, very good and when they were bad they were horrid! :lol:

I don't want to put a new post at the end of this thread and derail it again but I do want to set the record straight regarding Kareen's post 4 after this one. All along I have said that Inschallah and Inschallah II had some outstanding progeny. That is backed up by Kareen's statistics. That has never been in question.

What I am saying is that, just as some stallions sire offspring that vary in size, others sire offspring that have a wide range of temperaments. Inschallah was one of those. His best were international standard. The rest were not and often the reason they were not was explosive over-reactivity.

We sometimes mention on this board how important it is to see as many offspring by a stallion as possible. IMHO this question of temperament is one of the most important reasons why. Looking at the best a stallion produced can give you a very false impression of what you are most likely to get from using him. It is far more important to look at his average offspring and ask yourself if you would be happy if your mare produced one of those.

stolensilver
Apr. 18, 2011, 03:16 PM
And now back to Sir Gregory who seems to be a lovely stallion who is getting a lot of good mares. :)

Spike
Apr. 19, 2011, 02:35 AM
We just got our Sir Gregory foal. He was born couple of hours ago. He is simply handsome!

Peg
Apr. 19, 2011, 03:16 AM
Congratulations, Spike! Pics? Peg

Kareen
Apr. 19, 2011, 06:01 AM
As far as Inschallah goes I don't know where you took your information from to say his get was difficult. Quite the opposite. If you have experienced problems with Inschallah II offspring o/o TB mares maybe the mares weren't wisely chosen.
This AA is one of the most prolific AA producers within European warmblood breeding. One should never confuse sharp with difficult. Difficult in my way of thinking is a horse that will respond badly to being asked to perform in whatever shape or form. A horse that does not have the mindset to stay out of trouble.

The Inschallah that was here in Europe has most definitely been an epitome of a performer and the blood is rare but popular to date in my neck of the woods. His only limitation was the 'wrong' color which once again proves how counterproductive it is to make color a major consideration in sporthorse breeding ;)

Here are some numbers to back up his statement in breeding, if you take a look in the 1995 FN yearbook you will find at that time 59 direct Inschallah offspring were actively competing and winning in Germany:
11 of them at FEI level. From his many approved stallion sons
Ibikus, Indonese, Inuki and Intervall (Oldenburg), Im Frühling, Impala (Westfalian), Ingold, Inschah, Interpol (Hanoverian) had already produced many FEI competing offspring themselves. One can in no way say he had fallen out of favor with riders or breeders. Quite a few of his stallion sons went to international or at least national level themselves (e.g. Ile de Bourbon with T.Frühmann http://www.thomasfruehmann.at/Thomas%20Fruehmann/Meine%20Erfolgspferde/slides/Scannen0023.html, Inselfürst (sire of Ironman) in dressage etc.etc.
In my opinion the two major factors why Inschallah has not been used even more is because he was grey and he wasn't particularly interested in jumping the phantom so was only available through live cover. While Furioso II and Zeus had massive benefits from AI which only just came up in WB breeding here in Europe at the time he often took a long time to do the deed.

Sorry for OT but I felt this view had to be put in perspective.

DownYonder
Apr. 19, 2011, 06:24 AM
I have most knowledge of Inschallah II and he was mainly crossed with TBs as that was the major mare base at the time. This was quite a few years ago!

When they were good they were very, very good and when they were bad they were horrid! :lol:

So you are talking about Inschallah II, who I assume was the full brother of the Inschallah everyone else is talking about?

It is not unknown for full siblings to be VERY different in temperament, and these differences can certainly be exacerbated by differences in rearing and handling. And I-2 was bred to mostly TB mares, while I-1 was bred to mostly WB mares - another big factor to consider.

But to get back to Sir Gregory - Spike, congrats on your foal!

Spike
Apr. 19, 2011, 07:23 AM
Thanks! Picture is poor quality (taken with my blackberry this morning) but better ones we'll take today!

http://www.autumnsstables.com/photobucket/sternentanzer_8hrs_old.jpg

We are very happy he is friendly, was up pretty fast, is already solid on his legs who are endless! Can't wait to bring him out for the first time!

Kyzteke
Apr. 19, 2011, 10:32 AM
Thanks! Picture is poor quality (taken with my blackberry this morning) but better ones we'll take today!

http://www.autumnsstables.com/photobucket/sternentanzer_8hrs_old.jpg

We are very happy he is friendly, was up pretty fast, is already solid on his legs who are endless! Can't wait to bring him out for the first time!

OK -- great picture of some animal in a blanket!!:D

Seriously, you need to get a pic of him NAKED :) and in the day light.

But from the vague outline, he seems very substanial and correct. What is the breeding on his dam?

Kyzteke
Apr. 19, 2011, 10:36 AM
As far as Inschallah goes I don't know where you took your information from to say his get was difficult. Quite the opposite.

Kareen -- thanks for your very informative post. Makes me wish Inschallah was closer up in SG's pedigree!

And again, not to derail this thread, but are there any good producing sons of Inschallah active in breeding now? I LOVE the AA influence.

Spike
Apr. 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
OK -- great picture of some animal in a blanket!!

Seriously, you need to get a pic of him NAKED and in the day light.

But from the vague outline, he seems very substanial and correct. What is the breeding on his dam?

Kyzteke:
LOL... I know I know!! Naked won't happen for couple of days, as here spring has decided to skip its turn in the normal season's rotation. It was below 40 degrees yesterday night outside, so not that warm in the barn... And now meteo channel plans are 10 cm of snow for tomorrow! We want to try a first trip outside this afternoon, so... better pictures will be taken for sure!

His dam is Serenti, a CW mare by Geronimo II (Shirrocco (by Sandsturm) x Ramiro Z/Lector mare), and out of a Polish Trakehner mare by Poprad x Leszek x Dekanter.
Picture of Serenti: http://www.autumnsstables.com/img/serenti_01.jpg

This mare is booked to Sir Wanabi for 2011-2012, but Sir Gregory will be a repeated breeding for sure in the future! So far I just plain love what I've got!

Kyzteke
Apr. 19, 2011, 01:49 PM
Picture of Serenti: http://www.autumnsstables.com/img/serenti_01.jpg


Wow, what a lovely mare Spike! Not to take anything away from SG, but with a dam like that I have no doubt you got a super foal.

smm20
Apr. 19, 2011, 04:04 PM
But here is a question I've long wondered about in terms of linebreeding/inbreeding: if Granate was the actual dam of Premiere her blood would be just as "dense" (ie, 50%) and no one would worry about it. So why the issue this time?



I can answer this. Think about basic genetics. Imagine a single gene - made up of paired alleles. One allele is from the mother. One allele is from the father (50% mother, 50% father). When the individual carrying this gene breeds, there is a 50% chance that the offpring will receive the allele from the individual's mother and 50% that the offspring will receive the allele from the individual's father. Say the offspring receives the allele from the motherline. Now the offspring has the motherline allele and another allele from the other parent. If this offspring is bred to a sibling that also received the motherline allele, the resulting offspring (grandchild to the original individual) can have both alleles from the motherline - in this case 100% of the gene is now motherline. The overall genetic contribution of the motherline is 50%, but some single-locus genes may be 100%, while others will be 0%. In this way, you can fix traits in the line.

-----------------

Same thing using symbols:

Single gene with three possible alleles: C, D, and E

Step 1: Individual #1: has alleles C and D

Step 2: Individual #1 breds with individual #2, who has alleles D and E. The resulting child (individual #3) has alleles C and E (50% from Individual #1 and 50% from Individual #2)

Step 3: Individual #3 is bred to his sibling Individual #4, who has alleles C and D. The resulting child (Individual #5) has alleles C and C.

Individual #5 is now guaranteed to pass allele C to any offspring he/she might have. If allele C produces a desirable phenotype, then this situation is a good one for breeders. In Individual #5, 100% of the alleles for the gene are sourced from Individual #1.

Individual #5 may share 50% of his/her genetics with Individual #1, but the overall distribution of the alleles is much different than if Individual #1 were the parent.

I hope this helps.

Kyzteke
Apr. 19, 2011, 06:32 PM
I can answer this. Think about basic genetics. Imagine a single gene - made up of paired alleles. One allele is from the mother. One allele is from the father (50% mother, 50% father). When the individual carrying this gene breeds, there is a 50% chance that the offpring will receive the allele from the individual's mother and 50% that the offspring will receive the allele from the individual's father. Say the offspring receives the allele from the motherline. Now the offspring has the motherline allele and another allele from the other parent. If this offspring is bred to a sibling that also received the motherline allele, the resulting offspring (grandchild to the original individual) can have both alleles from the motherline - in this case 100% of the gene is now motherline. The overall genetic contribution of the motherline is 50%, but some single-locus genes may be 100%, while others will be 0%. In this way, you can fix traits in the line.

-----------------

Same thing using symbols:

Single gene with three possible alleles: C, D, and E

Step 1: Individual #1: has alleles C and D

Step 2: Individual #1 breds with individual #2, who has alleles D and E. The resulting child (individual #3) has alleles C and E (50% from Individual #1 and 50% from Individual #2)

Step 3: Individual #3 is bred to his sibling Individual #4, who has alleles C and D. The resulting child (Individual #5) has alleles C and C.

Individual #5 is now guaranteed to pass allele C to any offspring he/she might have. If allele C produces a desirable phenotype, then this situation is a good one for breeders. In Individual #5, 100% of the alleles for the gene are sourced from Individual #1.

Individual #5 may share 50% of his/her genetics with Individual #1, but the overall distribution of the alleles is much different than if Individual #1 were the parent.

I hope this helps.

I'm sure it will once I understand it, and I'm sure I'll understand it after reading it 4-5 times :D. And at least someone answered the question.

So thanks in advance!

Kyzteke
Apr. 19, 2011, 06:37 PM
Kyzteke:
LOL... I know I know!! Naked won't happen for couple of days, as here spring has decided to skip its turn in the normal season's rotation. It was below 40 degrees yesterday night outside, so not that warm in the barn...

Ah, is this foal a tough boy or not? I had a (mistake) foal born in mid-February one year. I'm only 90 miles south of the Canadian border, so it was COLD. 2 ft of snow, temps never above 30-38 degrees.

I DID keep the filly in a (very airy) barn for 2 days, but after that I kicked her out for several hours at a time -- as long as it wasn't raining/snowing. She NEVER had a blanket.

She did fine....never even saw her shiver. I always made sure the hay pile was big enough for her to lie down on when she wanted....that was the only pampering she got.

Remember, the blanket just squishes down their natural haircoat....

Can't wait to see your boy NAKED!!;):lol:

rodawn
Apr. 19, 2011, 09:16 PM
As with any stallion it is the pairing to the correct mare. Inschallah was hot, but he was not mean. There is a difference. He had other traits which outweighed some of his heat - legs which were sturdy and not prone to breakdown and he was enormously athletic. The D-line with Inschallah is a good pairing. D-line are usually calm, cool and collected - sometimes they can be a little too cool. If there is a hotter D-bred horse out there it is because there was an outcross with a hotter horse.

Kyzteke - Because Granate was paired with a stallion not closely related to herself, it offered a mellowing of the inbred genetics, but it was a pairing that was highly complimentary. Inbreeding is valuable if you want to zero in, as it were, on very specific traits and make them a powerful influence into future generations. They usually do this if there is a very valuable lineage that is starting to disappear. This is exactly what happened with Premiere - she became the most powerful influence to her offspring, both genetically as well as environmentally. Bred to a complimentary lineage and you can have yourself a spectacular horses.

I would be careful, however, to breed a mare who was so closely bred as Sir Gregory is. It just might be too close. Breeding as it is tends to be like Russian Roulette and anything can happen. If you bred a mare who was closely inbred with Donnerhall and Graphit, you might basically get a replica of Premiere. But this could also backfire. Donnerhall and Graphit were not perfect and you might end up with the bullet that comes with Roulette and get all the bad stuff in one fell swoop. It is good to breed to an inbred horse if you really, really like the general family traits the family presents - and breed to a complimentary line - A, D, maybe some F and W.

Sir Gregory is not considered inbred. He has a mom who was inbred, but he, himself, now contains enough additional ancestors that I would basically call him cleanly and carefully linebred. He is a horse that would work well to breed to mares who are completely differently bred, or to mares who are somewhat linebred to the basic D line. Either way, you are going to be getting a strong D-family line trait in your foal. I'm sure Jennifer will not mind me saying so, but Sir Gregory has been stamping his foals beautifully with his clear D-line family trait characteristics - type, big movement that comes correctly from the hindquarters, character, interior qualities and quality of gaits that the D line is so famous for. His SH grandfather just adds a bit of lightness, beauty and refinement, some pizzazz, if you will. It's a nice mix.

I'm breeding a completely different-bred mare to him this year - She's a Belisar-Actueel-Nabuur-Le Mexico KWPN mare and it should be a very interesting mix and a somewhat calculated risk, but I'm counting on SirG to stamp this kid with the (personally preferred) D-line traits and characteristics.

Kyzteke
Apr. 20, 2011, 12:22 AM
Kyzteke - Because Granate was paired with a stallion not closely related to herself, it offered a mellowing of the inbred genetics, but it was a pairing that was highly complimentary.

Not sure what you mean about "mellowing the inbred genetics". Do you mean just taking the risk out by outcrossing?

That phrasing would make more sense.

As for inbreeding & linebreeding, you are preaching to the choir -- I am a big fan of it used properly. It DOES tend to be somewhat of a risk, but can pay off handsomely, as in the case of Premiere.

Raffles, a very famous Arabian stallion, is another example, in that he was produced by mating his sire to a daughter.

And I bred my Rubinstein I granddaughter to a Rubinstein I son and have been VERY happy with the resulting filly.

So far I really like SG phenotypically AND am very impressed with his pedigree and strong motherline. We'll see how he produces.

The mares I would have in mind for him are half-sisters (same dam) and would be total outcrosses, one being by Weltmeyer and the other by a Rubinstein I son. Both mares are o/o a Batido mare, and so have Bolero in the 3rd generation.

The only linebreeding between either of these mares and SG would be back to the D-line through Dirk who is in the 4th generation -- far enough back not to worry me so much.

Dorienna
Apr. 20, 2011, 07:37 AM
now breeding a Don Gregory daughter to SG would be inbreeding right?

off to read all of the above posts again...

Edgewood
Apr. 20, 2011, 07:58 AM
Both mares are o/o a Batido mare, and so have Bolero in the 3rd generation.

The mares with Bolero blood could possibly nick very well as B- to G- crosses, mainly through Bolero and Grande were very popular because they turned out so well. I have had many AHS/Verband inspectors comment on my one mares Brentano to Gold Luck cross (she was Gold Luck - Weltmeyer - Brentano) as an exceptional example of this B- to G-nick.

FWIW, the mare I was thinking of breeding to Sir Gregory is the daughter of the above mentioned mare, by Pablo. So she is line bred to Graphit. So there would be 4 crosses to Graphit in the 5th generation.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10527893&damid=10452215

SpiritN
Apr. 20, 2011, 10:24 AM
And I bred my Rubinstein I granddaughter to a Rubinstein I son and have been VERY happy with the resulting filly.


Kyzteke,

Not to complete threadjack, but I just saw the most incredible filly last weekend.. her sire is by Rotspon and her dam is by Rubinstein I. So, somewhat similar linebreeding to what you mentioned. Just GORGEOUS filly!!!

Kyzteke
Apr. 20, 2011, 01:43 PM
now breeding a Don Gregory daughter to SG would be inbreeding right?

off to read all of the above posts again...

No -- I would call that linebreeding myself.

DG is SG's grandfather, so you are doing the same thing I did when I bred a Rubinstein I GRANDDAUGHTER to a Rubinstein I SON.

That would put the concentration of Rubinstein I in the foal's 2nd and 4th generation, which is (I've heard) good placement for linebreeding.

But again, don't get too hung up on the terminology...that's why the saying is "It's linebreeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't.";)

Dorienna
Apr. 20, 2011, 02:09 PM
ok, now i'm really confused! I really liked SG for my mare, but disregarded him right away because i thought it was too close...

Edgewood
Apr. 20, 2011, 03:00 PM
No -- I would call that linebreeding myself.

DG is SG's grandfather, so you are doing the same thing I did when I bred a Rubinstein I GRANDDAUGHTER to a Rubinstein I SON.

That would put the concentration of Rubinstein I in the foal's 2nd and 4th generation, which is (I've heard) good placement for linebreeding.


Yes, and no. The issue as to why it is not quite like your scenario is because of the mare Granate. If you were breeding to a hypothetical stallion X who had Don Gregory as a grand sire and Dorienna's mare is by Don Gregory, then it is similar to your situation.

But the difference is that Premiere is out of two half siblings (DG and Pandora, both out of Granate), so thus, breeding a DG mare to Sir Gregory would mean 3 crosses to the same mare (Granate).


ok, now i'm really confused! I really liked SG for my mare, but disregarded him right away because i thought it was too close...

I know I would be uncomfortable with the # of crosses to a single mare and also Donnerhall. But they do this all the time in the Arab world.

selah
Apr. 20, 2011, 03:20 PM
I find it helpful to do a hypothetical mating using one of the online databases. This one can still be accessed without a fee (there is a free registration required).
http://sporthorse-data.com/

Kyzteke
Apr. 21, 2011, 09:53 AM
Yes, and no. The issue as to why it is not quite like your scenario is because of the mare Granate. If you were breeding to a hypothetical stallion X who had Don Gregory as a grand sire and Dorienna's mare is by Don Gregory, then it is similar to your situation.

But the difference is that Premiere is out of two half siblings (DG and Pandora, both out of Granate), so thus, breeding a DG mare to Sir Gregory would mean 3 crosses to the same mare (Granate).

I know I would be uncomfortable with the # of crosses to a single mare and also Donnerhall. But they do this all the time in the Arab world.

You are right -- forgot about Granate. However, given Granate's obvious quality, I would have ZERO qualms in having her 3x in a pedigree. Would not even hesitate. And I would pray to the gods for a filly!

And Donnerhall would also not bother me -- he was a brilliant stallion, a brilliant performer and a brilliant producer, so again, I would not worry. And he'd be far enough back to not freak me out.

But alot depends on what the other parts of the mare's pedigree are -- does she suit SG phenotypically as well?

Again, this sort of close-up linebreeding is pretty rare in the WB world, which is why it caught my eye. But I've been around Arab & TB people long enough to not be so freaked out about it. For instance, I don't think there are ANY hereitary genetic defects in the Arab breed that resulted from linebreeding. And the fact that Arabs are one of the longest living breeds and one of the soundest (as witnessed by their success in endurance riding), shows that this sort of breeding isn't as scary as we might think. And just about every top breeder I know in those breeds DOES use it -- carefully, well-thought out prior and by REALLY knowing their horse. So when they use it, it tends to work pretty darn well.

I mean, you aren't going to get a horse with 6 heads or anything:eek: -- which is why most people are scared off -- but you also may not get anything brilliant. But then you may....:D

The MAIN danger of all of this is that the horse(s) you are linebreeding to must not have any recessive genetic issues or major (genetic faults) such as crazy temperament, vastly crooked legs, club feet, etc.,etc. But if either Granate or Donnerhall has these, it would have shown up in Premiere or SG.

Because in this case you'd be doubling up (tripling up) on outstanding horses like Donnerhall, who proved himself in every way a sporthorse CAN prove himself, and Granate, who turned out to be one kick-ass broodmare/producer, I would personally take the risk.

Worse case scenerio -- you get just an average, ok baby. Best case scenerio? WOW!!! You get a genetic powerhouse.

Kyzteke
Apr. 21, 2011, 10:00 AM
I find it helpful to do a hypothetical mating using one of the online databases. This one can still be accessed without a fee (there is a free registration required).
http://sporthorse-data.com/

Selah -- thanks so much for this source! I use hypothetical matings as well, so I can "see" what I'm breeding, but I've been using AllBreed Pedigree. I just enter the horse under names like 'My Foal#1 or something....;)

Kyzteke
Apr. 21, 2011, 10:10 AM
The mares with Bolero blood could possibly nick very well as B- to G- crosses, mainly through Bolero and Grande were very popular because they turned out so well. I have had many AHS/Verband inspectors comment on my one mares Brentano to Gold Luck cross (she was Gold Luck - Weltmeyer - Brentano) as an exceptional example of this B- to G-nick.

FWIW, the mare I was thinking of breeding to Sir Gregory is the daughter of the above mentioned mare, by Pablo. So she is line bred to Graphit. So there would be 4 crosses to Graphit in the 5th generation.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10527893&damid=10452215

I am hoping this will be true. Actually the Rubinstein granddaughter is by Rubino Bellismo, who is o/o a Bolero granddaughter (I think...maybe great-granddaughter), so she has 2 lines to Bolero herself.

The only hesitation I would have to having 4 crosses to Graphit is that you would also be having 4 crosses to Grande, and while he DID prove himself in the end, I'm sure you know he had "issues" that would have made him a gelding if his owner had not believed so highly in him.

He was rejected by his Verband. Once he began to show successfully, he got afew more mares, but then for YEARS he was laughingly called "The Pony Maker" because his get were so short.

From my understanding, it was only quite late in his life that his value as a sire was finally recognized...when he finally started getting some good mares and the foals from THOSE mares got old enough to get out and perform.

So, you may get a great horse/performer, but others may not see it that way....

One thing I never did like about Grande is that thick, cresty neck he had...and that shows up even down the line. You can plainly see it in SG, even as a young stallion.

But it's an superficial thing. Rubinstein I had the same sort of neck, but I think if he was still alive and I could breed to him, I'd somehow get over it....;)

Edgewood
Apr. 21, 2011, 10:24 AM
So, you may get a great horse/performer, but others may not see it that way....

One thing I never did like about Grande is that thick, cresty neck he had...and that shows up even down the line. You can plainly see it in SG, even as a young stallion.



I personally like the G line horses a lot, and crossed with more modern horses, you get some really nice offspring. For this mare in question, she actually needs a rounder neck across the crest, so that is one reason I like Sir Gregory for her. That was the only negative comment that Katrin Burger had about the mare at her GOV inspection (and actually put the caveat that she was only 3 years old and the crest would get rounder with age). She received a very high GOV inspection score (7.5) and was given a Non-Oldenberg Mare of Distinction. So she is a nice mare and very good under saddle too.

But I am holding off for now with this mare, until I see how she produces. She just had a Royal Prince colt (via ET) and will be bred to another R line stallion this year. Then, after I see how she produces, I might go for the SG cross.

Dorienna
Apr. 21, 2011, 10:48 AM
this would be the hypothetical mating:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=663925

is there a difference between linebreeding/inbreeding on the mare side versus the sire side?

Kyzteke
Apr. 21, 2011, 11:26 AM
this would be the hypothetical mating:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=663925

is there a difference between linebreeding/inbreeding on the mare side versus the sire side?

That link didn't work for me, so I took the liberty of doing one on another site.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/myfoal4

As you can see, there is NO "inbreeding" whatsoever, as the closest concentration is not till G2.

You have: Don Gregory 1x2,1x3....Donnerhall 1x3, 2x4....and the lovely Granate 1 x3 and 2x4.

All of these are strong, very safe places for linebreeding! Again, I don't know alot about DG and what's behind him (because when you double up on Horse A you are also doubling up on every horse behind Horse A), but those are the only cases of linebreeding in this foals pedigree, and I (personally) can't fault either Donnerhall or Granate.

Assuming your mare "fits" SG, I would not hesitate to give it a try.

Playing it safe never got anybody anywhere....;)

Dorienna
Apr. 21, 2011, 01:50 PM
well i always worried i would stand the chance of getting some major defect in the offspring, so that is incorrect? i think my mare does fit SG, just didn't want to put either mare or foal at risk.

more food for thought!

stolensilver
Apr. 21, 2011, 02:45 PM
Again, this sort of close-up linebreeding is pretty rare in the WB world, which is why it caught my eye. But I've been around Arab & TB people long enough to not be so freaked out about it. For instance, I don't think there are ANY hereitary genetic defects in the Arab breed that resulted from linebreeding.

[snip]

The MAIN danger of all of this is that the horse(s) you are linebreeding to must not have any recessive genetic issues or major (genetic faults) such as crazy temperament, vastly crooked legs, club feet, etc.,etc. But if either Granate or Donnerhall has these, it would have shown up in Premiere or SG.

Unfortunately these statements aren't entirely accurate. Sorry Kyzteke.

There are four main genetic diseases in Arab horses. These are:
Severe Combined Immunodeficiency Disorder (SCID) (test available)
Cerebellar Abiotrophy (CA) (indirect marker test available)
Lavender Foal Syndrome (LFS) (test available)
Occipital Atlanto-Axial Malformation (OAAM) (test not yet available)

The results from the tests for SCID show that 16% of Arabs carry this defective gene and for CA 20% of the Arab population carry that defective gene. This high incidence is due to inbreeding. All populations carry defective genes and the more you concentrate the gene pool (or in other words the more you inbreed) the more chance there is for a recessive defective gene to become common within that population.

The second statement is inaccurate too. Recessive genes are not expressed at all (just think of the number of black and bay horses who carry a recessive chestnut gene, Totilas anyone?) so you have no way of telling that a horse carries that gene by looking at them. You will only find out if the foal carries 2 copies of the faulty gene as they will display the disease or if we are talking coat colour, they will be chestnut. Club feet and poor leg conformation have a degree of heritability but it is low. The inheritance of these things is not straightforward and it is not due to just one gene. They also have a significant environmental component and epigenetics is guaranteed to be involved.

FWIW Donnerhall himself had OCD. He had an operation for it, if I remember correctly, on a hock when he was 5. OCD is complicated as it is multifactorial but many authors think there is a genetic component to it. So would heavy inbreeding to Donnerhall predispose the foal to OCD? I don't know but it would be something I'd think about before proceeding.

Kyzteke
Apr. 21, 2011, 08:03 PM
Unfortunately these statements aren't entirely accurate. Sorry Kyzteke.

There are four main genetic diseases in Arab horses. These are:
Severe Combined Immunodeficiency Disorder (SCID) (test available)
Cerebellar Abiotrophy (CA) (indirect marker test available)
Lavender Foal Syndrome (LFS) (test available)
Occipital Atlanto-Axial Malformation (OAAM) (test not yet available)

The results from the tests for SCID show that 16% of Arabs carry this defective gene and for CA 20% of the Arab population carry that defective gene. This high incidence is due to inbreeding. All populations carry defective genes and the more you concentrate the gene pool (or in other words the more you inbreed) the more chance there is for a recessive defective gene to become common within that population.

The second statement is inaccurate too. Recessive genes are not expressed at all (just think of the number of black and bay horses who carry a recessive chestnut gene, Totilas anyone?) so you have no way of telling that a horse carries that gene by looking at them. You will only find out if the foal carries 2 copies of the faulty gene as they will display the disease or if we are talking coat colour, they will be chestnut. Club feet and poor leg conformation have a degree of heritability but it is low. The inheritance of these things is not straightforward and it is not due to just one gene. They also have a significant environmental component and epigenetics is guaranteed to be involved.

FWIW Donnerhall himself had OCD. He had an operation for it, if I remember correctly, on a hock when he was 5. OCD is complicated as it is multifactorial but many authors think there is a genetic component to it. So would heavy inbreeding to Donnerhall predispose the foal to OCD? I don't know but it would be something I'd think about before proceeding.

I am not an Arab breeder, but I'm pretty sure SCID and LFS are NOT caused by inbreeding or linebreeding. In otherwords, you could do a total outcross and get either....it only takes ONE horse to be effected. So what is important is if the horse has it, correct?
So again, this has nothing to do with linebreeding. It's just 'bad' breeding.

It will not be "created" by linebreeding. It could be passed on, just as it could be passed on by outcrossing.

In fact, the only case I know of linebreeding INTRODUCING a genetic disorder into a breed is the case of HYPP in QH's because of Impressive and in that case he has the (recessive) gene and when folks linebred to him, genes do what they do when recessive is bred to recessive -- they appear! That's why when you breed a chestnut (recessive) to a chestnut (recessive) you will ALWAYS get a chestnut!

The other one is also in QHs and it's that horrid skin condition whose name fails me, because of linebreeding to Poco Bueno's dam. Again, it was a RECESSIVE gene, which, when doubled up, produced a certain # of horse with this condition.

So yes, recessive genes 'hide' but two recessive genes don't, which I tried, but apparently did not make clear.

In the case of HYPP, it could have been stopped quite early, but the AQHA didn't want to put the damper on breeding to Impressive, since he was THE popular stallion of the day.

And, because QH and Arabs aren't inspected and graded prior to being allowed to breed, both these conditions began to run wild.

As for Donnerhall having OCD, I would have to ask you your source, because (no offense -- TRULY), you were so off-base with the Inschallah information I'm not sure you have the inside tract on this stuff. Do you know DH's owners? The surgeon? Exactly where did you get your info?

But let's assume you are right and he DID have OCD. Do you know how he was raised? Because, according to the HUGE study done in Germany, headed by the German Hanoverian Verband, the largest component is managerial. And, yes, there IS a genetic component...it's about 8-11%. However the BIGGEST component by far is foal management.

So, to know HOW Donnerhall got his OCD (which personally, I doubt he ever had, but I'll play along) would be important. And did he pass it on? That's also vital knowledge. Well, considering he's got about a billion approved sons and they all must be x-rayed before approval, I'd say we are fairly safe in that regard...unless there is some underground market in Donnerhall OCD surgery...

And of course it's worth pointing out that plenty of horses have OCD who are total outcrosses.

Seriously, because of the vigorous inspection and culling, line/inbreeding in WBs is probably safer than any other breed, and considering the success OTHER breeds have had with it, it would not keep me up at night at all doing a cross like Dorienna mentioned.

For a brilliant example of the power of well-thought out linebreeding by a breeder who truly knows her stock, take a look at the HIGHLYsucessful Al-Marah Arabian program, now in it's 40 or 50th year. Probably THE most successful Arab program in the USA (although Varian might give her a run for her $$). That program is based on 4 horses:

This one:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/raffles3

This one:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/raseyn

This one:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rissalix

And this one:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/indraff

I would encourage anyone who is interested in linebreeding to study these pedigrees -- the cross Dorienne is thinking of is mild compared to some of these. Yet Bazy Tankersley is probably THE most respected Arab breeder alive today.

Her horses have been known far & wide for their soundness, temperament and athletic ability for the last 4-5 decades. Even today this breeding program is known for PERFORMANCE horses; animals that perform very well in dressage, jumping, western events and endurance AND have a good mind to do it! Yeah, she culls, but all breeder should do that. She is a master at what she does and it has been proven in her program.

So she obviously knows a thing or two about linebreeding....;)

stolensilver
Apr. 22, 2011, 12:52 AM
Oh dear. You are very confused about genetics Kyzteke. If a gene is recessive it will not be expressed if it is only present in single dose. A horse with that gene is known as a carrier. The disease the gene causes will only be expressed if the foal inherits two copies of the gene, one from each parent. All the genetic disorders listed for Arabs are recessive and because the Arab population is so inbred the genes for those diseases are common within that population. So the term "outcross" in an Arab would probably mean you would have to choose a horse from a different breed.

You are right that inbreeding per se does not cause the recessive genes. They were already present. What it does do is concentrate them within a population making it more likely for foals to inherit them from both parents and suffer with the disease.

Where you are mistaken is in assuming that horses with SCID and CA are able to breed. They are not. SCID is lethal by 4-6 months old. CA horses are usually symptomatic and put down before their third birthday. Generally recessive genetic diseases are severe. Until the genetic tests came out breeders had no way of knowing if their breeding stock carried the defective genes or not until the disease manifested itself in the offspring.

HYPP is a different situation. HYPP is not a recessive gene. It is Dominant with incomplete penetrance. This means that even if a horse has a single copy of the defective gene it has some effect upon the horse. When the gene mutation first appeared the muscle hypertrophy it caused was seen as beneficial and so the gene was selected for by breeders who did not know of it's negative consequences. Later on when the true effect of HYPP was known it took far too long for it to be publicised and selected against.

Regarding Inschallah my information is not wrong. People have no problem at all accepting that some stallions throw offspring of different sizes. Other stallions throw offspring with different temperaments. At no stage did I say that his best were not outstanding. What I did say was that as well as those horses he produced enough explosively hot horses for him to gain a reputation for this. It isn't a big deal but it is the sort of information you need to know if you are breeding to a stallion and it does make breeding to stallions you haven't met and whose average (rather than carefully selected) offspring you haven't seen.

Final point about Donnerhall. It is no secret that Donnerhall had OCD. it didn't affect his career in any way so why is it a problem? I didn't bring it up as a problem, after all OCD is considered endemic in most warmblood populations. Having OCD is no bar to becoming a stallion in any studbook although the KWPN are more strict than others about it. But it is something to bear in mind for the poster who originally started this thread about Sir Gregory and was wondering about adding even more D line blood.

Kyzteke
Apr. 22, 2011, 10:28 AM
Oh dear. You are very confused about genetics Kyzteke. If a gene is recessive it will not be expressed if it is only present in single dose. A horse with that gene is known as a carrier. The disease the gene causes will only be expressed if the foal inherits two copies of the gene, one from each parent. All the genetic disorders listed for Arabs are recessive and because the Arab population is so inbred the genes for those diseases are common within that population. So the term "outcross" in an Arab would probably mean you would have to choose a horse from a different breed.

You are right that inbreeding per se does not cause the recessive genes. They were already present. What it does do is concentrate them within a population making it more likely for foals to inherit them from both parents and suffer with the disease.

Where you are mistaken is in assuming that horses with SCID and CA are able to breed. They are not. SCID is lethal by 4-6 months old. CA horses are usually symptomatic and put down before their third birthday. Generally recessive genetic diseases are severe. Until the genetic tests came out breeders had no way of knowing if their breeding stock carried the defective genes or not until the disease manifested itself in the offspring.

HYPP is a different situation. HYPP is not a recessive gene. It is Dominant with incomplete penetrance. This means that even if a horse has a single copy of the defective gene it has some effect upon the horse. When the gene mutation first appeared the muscle hypertrophy it caused was seen as beneficial and so the gene was selected for by breeders who did not know of it's negative consequences. Later on when the true effect of HYPP was known it took far too long for it to be publicised and selected against.

Regarding Inschallah my information is not wrong. People have no problem at all accepting that some stallions throw offspring of different sizes. Other stallions throw offspring with different temperaments. At no stage did I say that his best were not outstanding. What I did say was that as well as those horses he produced enough explosively hot horses for him to gain a reputation for this. It isn't a big deal but it is the sort of information you need to know if you are breeding to a stallion and it does make breeding to stallions you haven't met and whose average (rather than carefully selected) offspring you haven't seen.

Final point about Donnerhall. It is no secret that Donnerhall had OCD. it didn't affect his career in any way so why is it a problem? I didn't bring it up as a problem, after all OCD is considered endemic in most warmblood populations. Having OCD is no bar to becoming a stallion in any studbook although the KWPN are more strict than others about it. But it is something to bear in mind for the poster who originally started this thread about Sir Gregory and was wondering about adding even more D line blood.

SS, we are getting WAY OT, since this is a thread about SG. But I am NOT confused about genetics, but you seem unable to actually READ my posts. As I said at least twice -- recessive genes ARE recessive when it is ONE gene. TWO recessive genes will produce -- and I gave the example of chestnut.

Chestnut is a recessive gene, right? That's why it "hides" in black/bay horses for generations. But if you breed a chestnut to a chestnut (recessive to recessive) you will ALWAYS get a chestnut. Get it?

And your knowledge of Arab breeding (and WB for that matter) is sadly lacking. It is easily possible to outcross one strain of Arab to another without going to another breed....geez...try looking at pedigrees.

As for Donnerhall having OCD, again, I want your source. Not "it's common knowledge" but WHO you heard it from. A name! NOT Internet gossip, but an actual real person who might have first-hand knowledge. THEN I might give your story credence.

As for OCD being "epidemic" in WBs, for your information, according to a break down of DOD in breeds done by WSU, the incident of these issues in spread fairly evenly across breeds, with the % being no higher in WBs than any other breeds.

And, for a stallion to be accepted for approval, x-rays need to be submitted. Yes, the RARE stallion who has low-grade OCD is accepted, but this IS rare.

Lastly, even if DH DID have OCD, we have no idea if it was passed on to DG or any of the other horses in SG's pedigree. It is NOT a recessive gene, so doubling up on the lines would not produce any more OCD than would breeding to any ONE stallion at random.

As for Inschallah, if quotes from the German Verband itself didn't convince you, or the information from an experienced German breeder, then you just aren't going to listen, are you?

Again, if you are so privy to this information, I want NAMES of these killer Inschallah horses and the pros who called them that. Not vague rumors, but FACTS.

If you aren't willing to do that, then your opinions hold no weight....

Now, maybe we can get this thread back where it belongs -- to SG.

stolensilver
Apr. 22, 2011, 11:09 AM
K I really don't think that anything I say will alter your mind and that is just fine. You would not know the names even if I gave them to you as you are on the other side of the Atlantic and the stallion on question is long gone.

To anyone else who has any curiosity in these areas I recommend you ask around. You really don't have to take my word on anything but there really is no point posting if you aren't sure of what you say.

stolensilver
Apr. 22, 2011, 11:18 AM
Final post. My comment about outcrossing in Arabs needing to go to another breed to get a true outcross was a comment on the lack of genetic diversity within the Arab population and a reflection on the 16% and 20% of the Arab population that carry SCID and CA respectively. This same lack of genetic diversity and increased homozygosity (of non-defective genes obviously) is also why Arabs are such valuable horses to cross into other studbooks.

sniplover
Apr. 22, 2011, 01:15 PM
I would encourage anyone who is interested in linebreeding to study these pedigrees -- the cross Dorienne is thinking of is mild compared to some of these.

Those might be the foundations, but check this one out!!!

AM Double Dream (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/am+double+dream)

Kyzteke
Apr. 22, 2011, 02:09 PM
Those might be the foundations, but check this one out!!!

AM Double Dream (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/am+double+dream)

Wow! EIGHT crosses to Ferzon! Lord knows how many to Raffles. And the parents are full siblings!

And not one horrible mutant to be found anywhere:D.

No SCIDS or LFS either, I assume?;)

Does this guy have a pic? It doesn't show on the site.

Honestly, this would make even me alittle nervous, but Bazy T. really knows her stuff when it comes to breeding.

And I thing Dreamizon (sp?) was/is one of her premiere stallions, so she knew him and what he throw REALLY well. THIS part is vital in linebreeding.

What I am trying to point out to Dorienne (and others) is that linebreeding/inbreeding can be an amazing tool if used correctly. It's just not that common in the WB world, so people get freaked over it.

But Bazy T. is not some backyard breeder and her stock is not goofy-minded, crooked legged junk, so the proof is in the pudding (so to speak).

Thanks for sharing.

Kyzteke
Apr. 22, 2011, 02:26 PM
Final post. My comment about outcrossing in Arabs needing to go to another breed to get a true outcross was a comment on the lack of genetic diversity within the Arab population and a reflection on the 16% and 20% of the Arab population that carry SCID and CA respectively.

Again, there is plenty of genetic diveristy in the breed; the Polish strains, Egyptian strains, CMK, Russian to not have the same ancestors unless you go WAY, WAY back. Like "desert bred' back.

Once more I ask for your source when quoting the statistic that 16-20% of Arabs with SCIDs. Is this from Arabian Registry? If not, who?

And, no, it is NOT their genetic homozygousity that makes them so valuable as outcrosses with other breeds. Arabs have been used for this purpose as long as modern horse breeding has been going on -- back as far as the formation of the English TB. Before they even knew WHAT their pedigree was!

They have long been a refining breed because of the innate qualities the breed has: soundness, endurance, intelligence, substance without being heavy, refinement, speed.

And when the WB breeders in Germany wanted to quicken the process of lightening their riding horses, they did the same thing: they went to Arabs or Anglo Arabs -- horses like Ramzes & Inschallah...neither of whom are linebred.

All of those qualities have nothing to do with linebreeding...they have to do with the quality the breed brings to the table. Period.

ETA: The post on AM Double Dream got me curious about how he turned out. So I Googled him and found out:

#1 He was 2009 TOP stallion in the Sporthorse Payback program.
#2 He stands for $2500 to a very limited number of outside mares
#3 He is the sire of a large number of very successful performance horses, including champions in SHUS, Western, SHIH, English pleasure and halter.
#4 He is SCIDS clear.

This is what linebreeding can do if you have the stock and know what you are doing. And Dorienne -- please note the total lack of mutants in this animal AND his get! <lol> Convinced you yet?

More info on Double Dream:http://www.shnpayback.org/stallions/am_double_dream.xml

And Sir Gregory -- sorry you've gotten lost in this thread, but I really DO plan on breeding to you next year. Let's get back on track...