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alter4areason
Apr. 16, 2011, 06:47 AM
Strike two so far...paying $8/hour cash and want someone to come in daily and clean up manure in common areas. It takes anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.25 hours depending on the time of year. We provide an ATV and cart to do the job with. First person was taking 2+ hours because of all the cell phone breaks and the fact she insisted on coming after dark most days. Needless to say, we had to fire her. However, based on that experience we decided to go to a per-cart rate for next person.

Right now it takes a little less than an hour to fill the cart. We decided to pay the new person $10/cart to make it worth her while and to allow some leeway. At first, all was great. Then, carts started coming in 3/4 full and manure left in areas. When we tried to address it, person said it was supposed to be $10/hour and that was all she could do in an hour. When I referred back to the written parameters of the job that she had been given at the beginning, she had mysteriously "lost" her copy and looked at the new copy I had available like it was from another planet. She hasn't shown up since.

Suggestions? Neither the per/hour nor the per/job approach has worked thus far...is it just the type of work or our approach? I'd like to be able to add on some other responsibilities eventually, but if you can't show up regularly and follow simple directions regarding manure removal, how can I trust you with feedings???

judybigredpony
Apr. 16, 2011, 07:07 AM
Seriously..theres not enough money to be made to cover the cost of gas..if it takes 45 minutes to 1.23 hour..just do it your self.
I pay way more to get 11 stalls cleaned.

IronwoodFarm
Apr. 16, 2011, 07:36 AM
You are offering a low wage, very part time job that involves manual labor....what kind of people will be attracted to that? Either make the job have enough hours to be viable -- who needs $10 - 20 a day when gas is approaching $4 a gallon or pay better wages. Honestly, you can make more babysitting and it's easier work.

If this is all you can pay, then I think Otherwise, you'll be spending all your time trying to manage a string of unsuitable workers who won't last.

deckchick
Apr. 16, 2011, 07:43 AM
I am a "Jill of All Trades" I do all sorts of jobs to earn money to supplement my income. No way would I be able to afford to work for you, it's just not worth my time to travel to your place for $10 - $15 a day. If you really want someone to come muck out your stalls, and it only takes about an hour, pay them $25.00 a day and be done with it. I would come and do that for $25.00 a day if it really only took about an hour. If you can find someone, then don't stand over them and watch their every move. So what if they are on the cell phone? People call me all the time to book a job, I am charging you a flat rate, and honestly, I will give you your money's worth.

tazz001
Apr. 16, 2011, 07:50 AM
Pay versus gas cost...no wonder you can't get or keep good people. I wouldn't even apply.

alter4areason
Apr. 16, 2011, 07:58 AM
There is NO WAY I am paying someone $25 to muck four stalls...um, minimum wage isn't even $8/hour and taxes get deducted out of THAT. Let me put it to you this way...most substitute teachers that I know in my area get paid $100/day for 7 hours...that is less than $15/hour. And then it gets taxed. And those people have at least a B.A., if not a Masters degree. And no one pays for THEIR gas. You are all correct - it is unskilled, manual labor. So, $8-$10 hour cash is like $14 on the books. As far as me paying you to talk on your cell phone...:no: No wonder there are so many illegal immigrants running around this country "taking all the jobs".

I'd like to give someone more hours, if you read my original post, last line. I guess I need to rephrase my question: Hourly rate versus a per-job rate? Most farm owners I've talked to say the per-job rate is the better approach but that didn't work out any better for us...

dogponyshow
Apr. 16, 2011, 08:03 AM
I too have the same problem-with needing about an hour a day to muck out pastures. Fortunately I have a wonderful woman that does this. I really do NOT want to do it, have done it for 5 years, and I clean the ten stalls in AM, so I hire it out. When she isn't able to work, I have a teenager come after school. I mean, $10.00 for 1 hour of work 5-6 days a week, that's not bad!

bird4416
Apr. 16, 2011, 08:03 AM
I think what people are trying to say is that the job is too small for anyone to be interested in. Therefore, you will have to overpay to get and keep a person. I've been in that position before also and that is what I had to do.

deckchick
Apr. 16, 2011, 08:15 AM
There is NO WAY I am paying someone $25 to muck four stalls...um, minimum wage isn't even $8/hour and taxes get deducted out of THAT. Let me put it to you this way...most substitute teachers that I know in my area get paid $100/day for 7 hours...that is less than $15/hour. And then it gets taxed. And those people have at least a B.A., if not a Masters degree. And no one pays for THEIR gas. You are all correct - it is unskilled, manual labor. So, $8-$10 hour cash is like $14 on the books.

Substitute teachers are paid a day rate, so that is worth their while to show up. I am talking about the 1 hour a day rate.


As far as me paying you to talk on your cell phone...:no:

If you are paying a rate as opposed to an hourly wage, what do you care?


No wonder there are so many illegal immigrants running around this country "taking all the jobs".

Really? :rolleyes:


I'd like to give someone more hours, if you read my original post, last line. I guess I need to rephrase my question: Hourly rate versus a per-job rate? Most farm owners I've talked to say the per-job rate is the better approach but that didn't work out any better for us...


Per job would probably work out better for you.


Exactly Bird4416! No way am I driving to your farm for an hours work and getting paid $10.00. It barely covers my gas and wear and tear on my truck.

If you have other jobs/more hours, then that's a whole different ballgame, but you won't get anyone that's reliable or good based on .75-1.25 an hour @$8-10 only.

mvp
Apr. 16, 2011, 08:32 AM
There is NO WAY I am paying someone $25 to muck four stalls...um, minimum wage isn't even $8/hour and taxes get deducted out of THAT. Let me put it to you this way...most substitute teachers that I know in my area get paid $100/day for 7 hours...that is less than $15/hour. And then it gets taxed. And those people have at least a B.A., if not a Masters degree. And no one pays for THEIR gas. You are all correct - it is unskilled, manual labor. So, $8-$10 hour cash is like $14 on the books. As far as me paying you to talk on your cell phone...:no: No wonder there are so many illegal immigrants running around this country "taking all the jobs".

I'd like to give someone more hours, if you read my original post, last line. I guess I need to rephrase my question: Hourly rate versus a per-job rate? Most farm owners I've talked to say the per-job rate is the better approach but that didn't work out any better for us...

Yes, but OP the substitute teacher spent much less of the per diem rate just getting to the job.

Maybe you do need to make this job bigger, not smaller, from the beginning in order to have it make sense for someone to take.

But please (please!) don't imply that the working poor are stupid, lazy or unethical. What they are is constrained in a way that really isn't quite like the middle-class farm owner. In this case, the poor SOB spending, say, as much time to get to the job as he is doing it has to make a calculation: What will I earn by the time I consider my expenses? And the stakes are high because the pay is so low! They have the same 24 hours to make enough to pay for food, shelter and all as everyone else. They simply can't *afford* to take little jobs like this one.

But the suggestion of having a teen come do this job after school might work. I think you'd need to make it more than a cash gig and maybe create a Working Student-like position. They clean up four or five days a week after school for a lesson on Saturday mornings. The kid can afford to do this low-paying job and also get something more out of it.

kinnip
Apr. 16, 2011, 08:52 AM
I feed/muck/etc. at up to three farms a day. The smallest of them I handle two days a week minimum, two trips a day for a total of maybe 1 1/2 hrs. I get paid $30/day now and I'm about to ask for a raise, because like any business, I need to maintain my profit margin and gas is expensive. Moreover, I have to look at the big picture. If she decided she only needed me one day a week, I'd likely give notice. I could take the time I'd alloted to her, and find someone with more work to offer.
The last time I checked folks were paying for degrees, not getting paid for degrees. Wages are not immune to the law of supply and demand. There's a pretty high demand for competent manual labourers. I know this because in addition to owning a construction subcontracting company, I co-manage one of the aforementioned barns and have struggled with hiring help myself. You'll always get your money's worth. You have to decide whether you want the bargain or the work done.
Frankly if I were you, I'd bite the bullet and find another hour in the day to do it myself. Unless you are really averse to mucking, I don't think it's worth the hassle or money to fuss with an employee.

ToiRider
Apr. 16, 2011, 08:57 AM
Strike two so far...paying $8/hour cash and want someone to come in daily and clean up manure in common areas. It takes anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.25 hours depending on the time of year. We provide an ATV and cart to do the job with. First person was taking 2+ hours because of all the cell phone breaks and the fact she insisted on coming after dark most days. Needless to say, we had to fire her. However, based on that experience we decided to go to a per-cart rate for next person.

In the first post the OP clearly states that they went from a "per hour" to a "per cart" rate BECAUSE someone was talking on their cell phone. Therefore, they were paying that person by the hour to talk on their cell phone, which isn't right no matter how you spin it. They then changed to the per cart rate, so the person could talk and scoop and it didn't matter how long they took to do it. I know we are all busy people and probably skim posts, but people have been taking shots at OP when they misunderstood her post.

OP, I agree with the poster who said to make the job a bit bigger so you can pay a bit more to make it worth someone's time to come. I also like the idea someone put out about giving a lesson or two on the weekends as an incentive. I would try to find someone VERY LOCAL, so that gas is not such an issue. Call the high school counselors and see if you can advertise a position there. Of course, if you get a teenager, you want to meet the parents and get their permission

If you find a horse crazy teen and let them have an opportunity to learn about horses, that may be your best bet. When I got my first horse, I boarded with a friend of my mother's. She and her family were big into the barrel racing scene and also had Quarter horse race horses. They all also had outside jobs (the wife was a nurse), and since this was Michigan, the horses were in a lot in the winter. My parents used to drop me off Saturday morning early and pick me up at dark. I would also go out any other time I could. After I rode my horse and played with her, I would clean all the stalls for about 12 horses. I LOVED doing it, and did it for free and without being asked. Needless to say, they loved having me as a boarder! I was so horse crazy that cleaning stalls was fun! I learned so much from those people, so I got a lot out of it too.

IronwoodFarm
Apr. 16, 2011, 09:25 AM
I'm with mvp on this one. The job isn't big enough for the low wages to justify the expense of going to it.

Comparing manual labor rates to teaching rates is silly. Teachers are underpaid for the education requirements of their job. They also don't work for one hour a day.

As for cell phone use -- welcome to the modern world! People have cell phone conversations all the time at work. I run a non-profit and every person in my office has a cell phone and makes/takes cell phone calls while on the job. That includes me. The younger people like to text. It's not something to get excited about.

The question about per hour versus per job -- sometimes that works but the job needs to be defined. I don't think a "per cart load" measure is particularly good. There was a disagreement about the cartload size. So just pay $X for cleaning manure in the common areas and be specific at where these areas are located and the amount of cleaning to be done.

LauraKY
Apr. 16, 2011, 09:57 AM
Unless you have a teenage neighbor (and I wouldn't think of paying less than $10/hour), you're probably going to continue having a problem.

Gas is $4.00 a gallon! How are they supposed to get to your farm, pay for their gas and have anything left over?

My daughter has a job that is 40 (correction, 50) miles away. She figures it takes her 2 1/2 hours just to pay for the gas to get there and back (vehicle choices are a jeep and the farm truck) and she doesn't have the money to pay for a more fuel efficient car. I'd be mucking it myself, or at least have someone come every other day (if the paddocks are large enough that it's not a problem). Up the pay a bit, and problem solved. Or, do it yourself.

Why should some poor hourly worker take a loss or work for free because what you pay barely covers their transportation?

Oh, and by the way, since it sounds like you're paying them under the table, what happens when someone gets hurt and needs workmen's comp?

Jacobi
Apr. 16, 2011, 10:02 AM
Do you have any kids at your barn (clients) in the lower income range - i.e. the ones struggling just to afford a horse or better yet the ones who can afford lessons, but no horse? Find one who's really keen, that will do anything to just be around horses, and who is hanging out at the barn anyway. Then, stress the importance of hygiene (poop picking) to the overall health of the horses and the pastures and how important it is to do a good job of this. Then, be prepared to offer little extras, every once in awhile, in addition to the regular pay. Extras like a free lesson, or a chance to ride a better horse, a day out with the trainer/barn owner at a show or sale. A lesson in the finer points of horse care - eg show braiding. I know when I was an early teen, 12-16, I would have picked poop until the cows came home for that. I hope there are still a few of those kids around (I know there have been a few at the various barn's I've boarded at).

fivehorses
Apr. 16, 2011, 10:02 AM
As for cell phone use -- welcome to the modern world! People have cell phone conversations all the time at work. I run a non-profit and every person in my office has a cell phone and makes/takes cell phone calls while on the job. That includes me. The younger people like to text. It's not something to get excited about.
.

Wow, I have a problem with that if the cell phone use is private but on company time. Just as I would have a problem if co workers were conducting private calls on a lan line. Where is the work ethic???

Toirider, thanks for pointing out the erroneous attack on the OP.

OP, a 10 an hour job seems like decent pay, and it is when you are paying for 4 - 8 hours a day, but to expect someone to come to work for you for 1 hour a day and get 10 is somewhat unreasonable, unless they live very close by or was a hs kid with a job to do after school.
I pay the boys who help me two days a week, 2 hours a day 40 bucks. Yes, that is good for hs kids, but I also want to beat out the competition by paying them more so they stick around. Hiring new people and the training involved is time consuming.

Sooo, I would expand the job, groom each horse, or scrub water buckets, put hay in stalls, fill horse buckets with water, rake the yard, etc, etc.
Have the person work at least a couple of hours, or pay them 20 bucks a visit, with expectations of what is to be done.
Ie, entire paddock(s) should have manure picked up. If it takes them a half hour or 3 hours...not your problem, you are paying by the job.
Be reasonable with your time it takes to do the job. In my previous life, I use to do job task anaysis, so I am fairly accurate about job flow, average time to complete a task/job.

Also, treat them like gold, and really appreciate them...that helps keep them around.
If they do any extra, give them more money, if they need a hat to keep the sun off...buy them one. If they need gloves, etc
The days of finding plentiful help to do manual labor is long gone. Most Kids aren't brought up to work manual jobs, and most adults just won't do it.
You have to give them an incentive...pay is one, and being kind and appreciative to them is a bonus.
Good luck.

Chief2
Apr. 16, 2011, 10:13 AM
It sounds like the part-time job would be well-suited to a young, high school teenager, one who cannot get a local minimum wage job in town. It's not easy for teens to get work, as there is too much competition from adults who have been displaced in the work place. So that is where I would tailor this job to if I wanted to successfully fill the position.

If an adult is looking at getting a job, they are looking at all of the parameters to see what they are getting into. If it's only mucking common areas (I thought that meant pastures) and then there are four stalls to be mucked, that's not a lot to keep someone in what is essentially a dead end job on any farm. Young teenagers don't look at things this way, though, and if it is an after school job, someone might just be willing to take you up on it. That would give you the latitude you feel you need to expand the job into feeding based on their mucking performance, or leave the job as it is. If you remain pleasant as a boss, the teen might stay on for a while, or add it onto a second part-time job. Good luck in filling the position.

On Par
Apr. 16, 2011, 10:35 AM
Is this an everyday job? And is it just stalls, or pastures/padocks too? I agree with everyone else, it's just not profitable enough to keep any good help around. If I were you, I would see how I could shuffle things around to get the help to come out every other day or twice a week, and pay them two or three times as much. It's the same amount of money for you, but less time for them, which makes it more profitable.

Also, this isn't a job for an unemployed, looking for work type person. This is a job for a highschooler (or a middleschooler within walking distance), college student who's conveniently close. Are you paying someone to come out to your personal farm, you don't have boarders or lesson students who would be interested in working off some of their money owed?

pj
Apr. 16, 2011, 10:42 AM
There is NO WAY I am paying someone $25 to muck four stalls...um, minimum wage isn't even $8/hour and taxes get deducted out of THAT. Let me put it to you this way...most substitute teachers that I know in my area get paid $100/day for 7 hours...that is less than $15/hour. And then it gets taxed. And those people have at least a B.A., if not a Masters degree. And no one pays for THEIR gas. You are all correct - it is unskilled, manual labor. So, $8-$10 hour cash is like $14 on the books. As far as me paying you to talk on your cell phone...:no: No wonder there are so many illegal immigrants running around this country "taking all the jobs".

I'd like to give someone more hours, if you read my original post, last line. I guess I need to rephrase my question: Hourly rate versus a per-job rate? Most farm owners I've talked to say the per-job rate is the better approach but that didn't work out any better for us...
Definately the per job rate is better for you. I've been ...done over a few times by the per hour thing. :mad: last time by my stepson and he did a royal job of it.
Never again.

With the gas thing the way it is you ARE going to have a hard time getting someone unless you pay a reasonable amount unless they live just right down the road or next door.

Good luck.

cbv
Apr. 16, 2011, 11:01 AM
$25.00 per visit (so usually 50/day for am and pm checks). That is for 3 - 4 horses that in most cases are out on pasture full time. No stalls to clean, just check/fill troughs, sometimes depending on the time of year and if the pasture needs supplementing, throwing some hay or grain. Look at each horse and make sure they are ok.

I am relatively sure it takes her less than an hour -- maybe less than 1/2 hour a day. But she has to arrange her schedule around it, drive here and home or here and to work, and as everyone says has to be worth her time and effort. $8.00 or $ 16.00 an hour wouldn't be.

The high school kid that cuts my inlaws small lawn at their river cottage gets $30.00 a week for what probably amounts to less than 1 hour a day per week. But he is concientious and plenty are willing to pay it for the piece of mind.

IronwoodFarm
Apr. 16, 2011, 11:51 AM
Wow, I have a problem with that if the cell phone use is private but on company time. Just as I would have a problem if co workers were conducting private calls on a lan line. Where is the work ethic??? .

Seriously, have you worked in a modern office recently? Everyone has cell phones. In my office, people can make and receive personal calls on their cell phone, as long as it is kept infrequent and short. I have staff with kids, staff with elderly parents, staff with medical issues -- do you think I am going to be the "telephone police" and start telling people to stop talking? That would be the first step to creating a very unhappy work place. All my staff is admin exempt, work 40+ hours a week, attend work, and do a good job. I certainly will not get huffy with them on personal calls at work.

As for me, my farm is 85 miles away from my work. I depend on others to help me. I definitely take calls at work related to my farm. I will call a vet, call a farrier or handle a sales inquiry. It's short conversations. If the conversation is longer, then I take that time out of my lunch hour schedule. My staff works that way, too.

As for a person talking on the phone and picking manure, I can multi-task, so doing both is not a problem. If the job is a piece rate job, then who cares how much they talk as long as the job gets done? Everyone who works for me at my barn uses their cell phone all the time.

The problem from a management perspective is that if you try to micro-manage everything a person does at work, it takes too much time and energy.

VCT
Apr. 16, 2011, 12:08 PM
As others have said, they money to be made from the job is not worth having the job. That is the problem.

Whether it is due to gas money... or just having the daily obligation for what amounts to $70ish a week. Just not worth it. Way better options out there for most people. So you are going to get not so great workers, or good workers who haven't been around the block enough to know this is a bad deal from the start. Once they figure it out... you get the reduction in quality of work / reliability because they feel like they are getting taken for a ride basically.

ThirdCharm
Apr. 16, 2011, 12:45 PM
My last barn helper decided to include "travel time" in her hours at the barn. Which would have been fine, if she'd mentioned it to me first, and if she didn't live less than ten miles away but somehow left at 9am and didn't get home until 10:20.... with variations, on multiple occassions. Sheesh.

Jennifer

mswillie
Apr. 16, 2011, 12:46 PM
There is NO WAY I am paying someone $25 to muck four stalls...um, minimum wage isn't even $8/hour and taxes get deducted out of THAT.

There is NO WAY I'm working for a single hour at the rate of $8.00/hour. By the time I start my car and drive to the job I've probably burned at least $3.00 in gas if I'm coming from close by.

My time is worth far, far more than $5.00/hour. I wouldn't even consider a job like that for less than $25.00 and even at that it would have to be convenient and more or less "on the way". And I actually enjoy mucking. It's good exercise and I don't have to think too hard about what I'm doing.

As an after school gig for a local horse crazy kid you might get away with $10.00 for the job if you could throw in a once a week lesson or something similar. Beyond that save the headache and just do it yourself.

Cruiser12
Apr. 16, 2011, 07:08 PM
There is NO WAY I'm working for a single hour at the rate of $8.00/hour. By the time I start my car and drive to the job I've probably burned at least $3.00 in gas if I'm coming from close by.

My time is worth far, far more than $5.00/hour. I wouldn't even consider a job like that for less than $25.00 and even at that it would have to be convenient and more or less "on the way". And I actually enjoy mucking. It's good exercise and I don't have to think too hard about what I'm doing.

As an after school gig for a local horse crazy kid you might get away with $10.00 for the job if you could throw in a once a week lesson or something similar. Beyond that save the headache and just do it yourself.

This

HOOF123
Apr. 16, 2011, 08:58 PM
VOLUNTEER-ask around- different scenery-etc...:)

Equisis
Apr. 17, 2011, 02:00 AM
In terms of per-hour vs per-job: set a flat rate for the work you need done, and hold your worker to the standards you expect. Mucking is worth $X and if it's not done to your standard, they can improve or they can leave. I agree with the other posters, though, that the travel time and gas costs necessary to get to your farm must be worth the amount of work and the pay. If you want quality workers, make it worth their while.

nightsong
Apr. 17, 2011, 02:09 AM
Look for a worker that is not totally self-supporting or doesn't have to travel far. Neighbor? Schoolkid (jr. high, high-schooler, college), bored retiree or the like would be VERRY good. I'm kind of in forced retirement, and would be verrry happy with a job like this.

yellow-horse
Apr. 17, 2011, 05:16 AM
Neighbor kids without a car, there are few jobs for hs kids near me, the 3 kids that come over here walk, they are 14-16 yr old range they don't feed or bring in/out but they muck, weed, clean buckets, clean the barn, wash the deck, clean my garage, they get 10 bucks an hour, in the sumemr i try to give them something more to do, it beats flipping burgers,i knwo the parents, the kids all have their own chores to do at home

TheJenners
Apr. 17, 2011, 08:04 AM
Add more hours and it might become more enticing.

Or, alternatively (and also, a question, are these stalls or areas? My impression from the original post was this was paddocks or common areas, but then later you said four stalls...) If these are common areas, why not make it a weekend job only? Or "Once or twice a week, come muck paddocks at $15/cart." I'd do that, and I'm employed with a well-paying job. I can't come every day, nor would I want to, but I'd be more than willing to come once or twice a week for a couple hours and make a sweet $30-$50 extra a week. That's a bag of dog food, bag of horse food, two annual shots (almost), the pull up bar I'm ordering, trip to the book store, etc. I like to muck, in fact I like manual jobs, but my schedule doesn't allow me to come every day. But a couple times a week and I'd be there. Might get better luck that way, if these are common areas or paddocks....

rustbreeches
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:45 AM
Subs around here make $88 a day, but all they have to do is pass a back ground check. There is a district paying $160, but I wouldn't step foot in those schools without a side arm.

I pay a teenage girl $8/hr to hang out with my children and eat my food. And I pay a 4 hour minimum, because we are pretty far out so we are looking at at least 45 min in the car.

In the 90's, I wouldn't step foot on a farm for less than $20 because otherwise it wouldn't have begun to cover wear and tear on car and my gas and still left me a decent wage.

I agree with OP, if you are paying by the hour, there should be no cell phone use. My dad is a contractor and if a guy answers a call on the clock, he gets his pay and has to clear off. You are paying them to do a job, not talk.

Can't you come up with some filler work? Like clear manure and then rake up this flowerbed/sacrifice paddock/front yard? Then it might be enough to warrant the $20 I suspect it is going to take to get even a highschool kid on site

butlerfamilyzoo
Apr. 17, 2011, 10:14 AM
Agree with the others, this simply doesnt pay enough even for so little of time needed to complete it, just not worth the effort, even for the high school kid who's parent's pay the gas bill. Maybe not even for the HS kid that lives next door or down the road... This takes an hour out that they could be working fast food for the whole evening and bring home more cash. Not to mention the fact that kids dont really seem to know the value of a dollar anymore, maybe something the present economy will put back into them, but i doubt it.

I would start looking for the person that cant afford horse board. Let's face it, it really doesnt cost that much to feed an extra horse... Probably no different than what you would be paying someone to come in and clean, frankly, probably much less than that. So you arent going to make a profit charging them $300-500 a month for your nice little private barn... You'll have dependable help that will most likely spend more hours at the barn and actually get to know your horses and treat the place more like their own, have some pride in it...

Then, really, they take care of their own horse so it's not much of an issue for you, and you dont have to spend the time to give them lessons like a working student position would. You might even get a riding buddy out of the deal.

judybigredpony
Apr. 17, 2011, 10:34 AM
OP I pay $4.50 a stall w/ 11 stalls max, 6 minimum.
Under 5 mucker won't drive out because not worth the fuel to drive here.
I don't care if she talks on phone or takes breaks. Its by the stall not hour.
I learned good trust worthy honest knowledgeable help is worth their weight in Gold.

You have been offered a ton of good suggestions, and once you get over being called "cheap" you can move forward.

For such a menial job, does your area have some sort of Job Center for learning Disabled? Those mildly impaired who can't handle a complex high pressure job??
Add on an hour of weeding,raking,sweeping,filling/cleaning water troughs, washing barn windows and you might have yourself a "Gem".
Since you like to supervise this sounds perfect for you. Plus they get dropped off and picked :).

Nes
Apr. 17, 2011, 10:43 AM
IMHO barn workers are worth a heck of a lot more than burger flippers around should be getting more then minimum.

We may not all have gone to school to do it, but proper and efficient stall cleaning is a very under-appreciated skill set. Anyone can throw s@^& in a bucket. A good stable hand can do it with out sending half your horses bedding in after it.



You need a boarder who wants to trade work for board.

mvp
Apr. 17, 2011, 11:17 AM
You have been offered a ton of good suggestions, and once you get over being called "cheap" you can move forward.

For such a menial job, does your area have some sort of Job Center for learning Disabled? Those mildly impaired who can't handle a complex high pressure job??
Add on an hour of weeding,raking,sweeping,filling/cleaning water troughs, washing barn windows and you might have yourself a "Gem".
Since you like to supervise this sounds perfect for you. Plus they get dropped off and picked :).

Both are good suggestions.

I read the OP as being angry at the workers or the situation. You can't exude that and also hire or keep an employee. That's true at almost any price.

When I was a kid, I worked at a barn with a guy who had a mild cognitive disability. He was great! He took his job seriously, was happy to be there and did it well. The job, money and the people were just his speed. I think his work history was full of low-paying jobs. But this one was much better in comparison to others places he had worked. He felt he fit in at our barn. Lots of that came from the BOs and clients who also agreed that he was the right man for this particular job.

Trixie
Apr. 17, 2011, 11:29 AM
There is NO WAY I am paying someone $25 to muck four stalls...um, minimum wage isn't even $8/hour and taxes get deducted out of THAT. Let me put it to you this way...most substitute teachers that I know in my area get paid $100/day for 7 hours...that is less than $15/hour. And then it gets taxed. And those people have at least a B.A., if not a Masters degree. And no one pays for THEIR gas. You are all correct - it is unskilled, manual labor. So, $8-$10 hour cash is like $14 on the books. As far as me paying you to talk on your cell phone... No wonder there are so many illegal immigrants running around this country "taking all the jobs".

Well, if this is the way you think, there is NO WAY you're going to get "decent farm help."

I mean, you've got to be kidding. You're offering barely enough to cover gas to get to the one hour long job, it's worth nobody's time or effort. And honestly? With the attitude you're portraying here, I don't think I'd work for you regardless of what you were paying.

Also? You're apparently bent on paying someone under the table, thus paying them less. I'm assuming that since it's contract labor you offer no workers comp or anything. An honest worker - which I presume is what you're looking for - would be filing taxes on that $8-10 an hour "which is more like $14." So this tells me you're actively happy to cheat the system and assume your workers will do the same, yet, are angry because you can't find anyone reliable.

clh
Apr. 17, 2011, 11:52 AM
Sounds like a very similar situation to what I've had in the past. First of all, if you are paying someone regardless of a paycheck or "under the table", no one should be spending "paid" time doing personal things like talking on the cell phone - this just isn't professional or acceptable no matter what job you are doing. You are cheating whoever you are working for if you doing personal business/private business on company time. I've known people that have been fired for it. Hence most companies have internet policies, etc... there is a reason for it.

When I put an ad in my local paper I received over 25 responses, included calls from men ages 25 to 65 years of age. When I quoted $8 an hour, not one of them said they weren't interested in the job. So, rest assured, there are plenty of people out there willing to do the work. Now, it is finding the people that are actually willing TO work, because those are two different things. We have guidelines and a barn-book set up so everyone knew what needed to be done in the barn and our barn helpers did the following: cleaned anywhere from 4 to 6 stalls (and we use a gator to haul the muck away), blew out the barn and keep the barn tidy (free of cobwebs, dust, etc), clean the run-ins, mow, weed-whack, brush the mares, help lead the mares and foals out, assist with the vet and farrier, etc... We may need someone anywhere from 1 to 4 hours a day (sometimes more, sometimes less). What I normally did was give them the equivalent of 1/2 tank of gas $$ per week or every other week on top of their salary depending on where they lived. We were fortunate enough to have the same girl work for us for three and a half years and another girls work for us two and a half years. We had part timers come and go. By paying them an additional $10 or $20 for gas that really seemed to help them out and they really appreciated it. But that was the way we did it. Again, some days all they did was muck a few stalls and were done. Other days we spent all day working with the horses, mucking stalls and mowing the yards and the paddocks and it was both me and them out there working all day long.

We also gave these girls raises every year that they worked for us, so the gal that worked for us for 3 years was making $11 an hour by the time she left.

Good luck, hopefully you'll find someone to help you out. They are out there it just may take you awhile to find them.

kinnip
Apr. 17, 2011, 11:56 AM
FYI: Since it has come up a couple of times, I thought I'd mention you aren't required to carry workers' comp on less than three employees.

ayrabz
Apr. 17, 2011, 12:06 PM
"alterforareason" :lol::lol::lol:
you aren't kidding!
Of course (!) there's a reason. You've GOT to see how ridiculous this thread is. There is NO way you'll get someone to work and do this job the way you want to 'pay' them. They just cannot afford to do so!!

Now, if YOU want something for free, GIVE something for free....Do you have a horse/pony you'd allow a teen or even a horse show mom to have a free lease on for their efforts?
I know I've mucked many, many, many a stall at different barns for this priviledge for my daughter way back when....

You're not going to get something for nothing.

Laurierace
Apr. 17, 2011, 12:17 PM
FYI: Since it has come up a couple of times, I thought I'd mention you aren't required to carry workers' comp on less than three employees.

Yeah right! I had to carry workman's comp even when I had no employees. The premium is adjusted according to your payroll with a minimum amount due if your payroll is below that. One employee can get injured as easily as four or more and then you are in big trouble. You could end up losing your farm/house over the lawsuit that ensues.

alter4areason
Apr. 17, 2011, 07:40 PM
Wow. I've been away for a few days and what a train wreck. To clarify:

1. The FIRST person was a boarder, so gas wasn't an issue as she was here anyway and lives close by. It was a matter of padding time and having several 5-10 minute phone conversations on my dime. Every time she worked. Which led to the per-job scenario. If people want to continue to DEFEND that, good for you. I'm glad you don't work here and don't be surprised if you have a boss now/in the future who doesn't appreciate that God-given right to talk on the phone instead of working that you claim to have.

2. My example of the manure picking was one of the MANY jobs around here that need to be done/we are willing to pay to be done. It is not the only job, but a good example of the per/hour versus per/job approach.

3. We have included riding time as a perk of the job for the second (horseless) person. To no avail, but thank you to those of you who made the suggestion.

Thank you to those of you who made rational, helpful suggestions.

And for those of you who made snarky comments about all the better paying jobs out there and how unreasonable I am to expect people to show up and do the job they willingly agreed to, I wonder if you've seen the unemployment rate stats lately??? Just sayin'...

ayrabz
Apr. 17, 2011, 07:49 PM
okey dokey then! so what IS the 'reason' for the 'alter'?

Seriously! If this is 'reasonable' and you really DO want help and think you're offering great pay, then, why? the alter?

Nothing snarky was meant, just shocked reactions.
So you're offering a great deal for someone, and the 'economy' as you put it makes your offering a valued proposal. Right? Then...pardon muwah....but...why are you claiming otherwise here?

Ghazzu
Apr. 17, 2011, 08:00 PM
Your attitude comes through once more in your most recent post.
I'm really not surprised you can't find someone.

kinnip
Apr. 17, 2011, 08:16 PM
Yeah right! I had to carry workman's comp even when I had no employees. The premium is adjusted according to your payroll with a minimum amount due if your payroll is below that. One employee can get injured as easily as four or more and then you are in big trouble. You could end up losing your farm/house over the lawsuit that ensues.
MD appears to be a little less lenient than other states, but they do allow exemption for agricultural employers with less than three full time employees or less than $15,000 annual payroll. Given their disinclination to exempt folks in other lines of work, however, I can see why you'd want to be covered. Here in GA any employer with less than three employees is exempt.

foundationmare
Apr. 17, 2011, 08:39 PM
FWIW, the later posts on this thread interest me. What is the deal with Workers' Comp. insurance for horsemen who employ help? I will employ 1 or 2 people at most. Is there a consideration for "in kind" personnel?

Trixie
Apr. 17, 2011, 08:48 PM
And for those of you who made snarky comments about all the better paying jobs out there and how unreasonable I am to expect people to show up and do the job they willingly agreed to, I wonder if you've seen the unemployment rate stats lately??? Just sayin'...

You're using this as justification for underpaying your help and assuming they'll cheat the IRS?

I'm not sure you understand that the people that willingly agree to be underpaid for crappy manual labor (literally) are not, as a general rule, "decent farm help." If you want someone who is dependable and trustworthy, you need to expect to pay for it.

The very fact that in this economy, with these unemployment statistics, you can't find decent farm help, is rather self explanatory.

Rhyadawn
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:12 PM
If it is costing your staff more in gas than they make when they are there then yes, I can see why you are having trouble keeping people.

I gave up one of my barn jobs because of that reason. Sucked because I loved the barn and the other staff, but I was making $25 a day and it was costing me $30 to go back and forth. If there had been some other perks (work off board, free lessons, etc), then it might still have been worth it, but there wasn't room for that.

Tamara in TN
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:22 PM
And for those of you who made snarky comments about all the better paying jobs out there and how unreasonable I am to expect people to show up and do the job they willingly agreed to, I wonder if you've seen the unemployment rate stats lately??? Just sayin'...

if you trust your horses health(and I suppose you consider clean stalls to be part of the health of the horse?) to $7 help, what do you expect ? really? and paying in cash ? to people who care more about hiding from the govt than taking care of your horses?

Tamara

kinnip
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:24 PM
FWIW, the later posts on this thread interest me. What is the deal with Workers' Comp. insurance for horsemen who employ help? I will employ 1 or 2 people at most. Is there a consideration for "in kind" personnel?

Evidently there is some difference between the states. I'd call your current insurance provider. Ours is always helpful when it comes to saving us money.

rustbreeches
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:48 PM
Yeah right! I had to carry workman's comp even when I had no employees. The premium is adjusted according to your payroll with a minimum amount due if your payroll is below that. One employee can get injured as easily as four or more and then you are in big trouble. You could end up losing your farm/house over the lawsuit that ensues.

Isn't this because to have a trainer's license in MD you have to carry it for the jock and pony person?

lesson junkie
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:57 PM
If it's so easy, why don't you do it yourself?

incentive
Apr. 17, 2011, 10:14 PM
With the attitude evident in your original post, I would have a very difficult time working for you regardless of what you were paying.

And I second the suggestion that you do the job yourself since it is such an easy thing to do.

littleum
Apr. 17, 2011, 10:23 PM
I have shoveled many a stall in my day.

Here's what I'm getting out of the post:

1) If I was your boarder, and you did say "hey, you want $10 to muck those pastures each day?" I might say "why yes, that would be lovely, I'm already here, it's only 45 minutes if I hustle, sweet!". However, if the attitude you've displayed here is the attitude I'd get doing that barter work, I'd quickly abandon it. Reason? You come off as too much of a pain in the ass to make it worthwhile. At least if I'm writing you a check and you get huffy with me I can pull the "excuse me, I am a CLIENT" routine.

2) If you're hiring someone off the street, it's just not worth it. You say you have additional work to do- fabulous. Figure out how much work needs to be done each day/ every 3 days/ every Saturday, come up with a $ for that work and say "now, is this reasonable?"

Gas is about $4/gal. Let's say your prospective employees drive a car with reasonably good gas mileage of about 20 mpg city. Let's say they also live reasonably close to you- within 10 miles. They now have gas costs of $4 per day to make the trek to your place. If they have a 15-20 mile commute (30 minutes, how many of us blink at 30 minutes?) they now have $8/day gas costs.

I think it's safer to assume that your potential employees are reasonably going to have that 30 minute-ish commute, and really are going to have gas costs of $8 even if they're put-putting about in a Civic. While you might say it's not worth $25 to pay someone to do it, it's also fair for them to say it's not worth it to do the work for less.

Laurierace
Apr. 17, 2011, 10:29 PM
Isn't this because to have a trainer's license in MD you have to carry it for the jock and pony person?

No, it does not cover the jock or pony person but yes you do have to have it to be licensed. It covers grooms and exercise riders.

mg
Apr. 17, 2011, 11:03 PM
The only time I've ever taken a job that was ~$8 per gig is when I was already at the barn and the BO would ask me if I would mind doing night check. I was already there, it was an easy job that took less than half an hour, and I liked being helpful. However, I would not have driven 15 minutes just to make 8-10 dollars. That's a bit silly.

I will also add, my BO was an amazingly sweet woman, so I liked doing the work for her. If I had gotten the kind of attitude displayed in the OP's posts, I would not have been so helpful.

justdandy
Apr. 18, 2011, 09:43 AM
There is NO WAY I am paying someone $25 to muck four stalls...um, minimum wage isn't even $8/hour and taxes get deducted out of THAT. Let me put it to you this way...most substitute teachers that I know in my area get paid $100/day for 7 hours...that is less than $15/hour. And then it gets taxed. And those people have at least a B.A., if not a Masters degree. And no one pays for THEIR gas. You are all correct - it is unskilled, manual labor. So, $8-$10 hour cash is like $14 on the books. As far as me paying you to talk on your cell phone...:no: No wonder there are so many illegal immigrants running around this country "taking all the jobs".

I'd like to give someone more hours, if you read my original post, last line. I guess I need to rephrase my question: Hourly rate versus a per-job rate? Most farm owners I've talked to say the per-job rate is the better approach but that didn't work out any better for us...

Well...when my neighbor's daughter is able to clean my barn (4 stalls), I pay her $20/day (cleaning stalls and doing water buckets). I think $5 per stall is very fair. It takes her about an hour.

judybigredpony
Apr. 18, 2011, 01:37 PM
alter4areason still has her e-mail address attached which doesn't disguise things to well.

Alter you may have the best intentions but you need to make a real work plan of chores needed then represent the whole model again w/ incentive.

chism
Apr. 19, 2011, 04:29 PM
I think what people are trying to say is that the job is too small for anyone to be interested in. Therefore, you will have to overpay to get and keep a person. I've been in that position before also and that is what I had to do.


THIS! ;)

Seriously...It costs more in gas to/from than it's worth. If you want quality help, your options are..... pay more, find more work for additional hours or add some sort of perk, like riding or lessons.


Edit - Posted this after only reading the first page. Nevermind. ;)

Oberon13
Apr. 20, 2011, 11:40 AM
I've recently started doing the weed-eating around the barn for $8/hr. However, this is ONLY because:

1) I have a horse that, in all honesty, I can't afford. So, I HAVE to work off my board as much as possible. I do teach lessons at the barn, and that pays better, but lessons are not dependable income (people get sick, weather, etc.).

2) I love my BOs. They have taken a liking to me, and they're willing to give me extra jobs around the barn to help defray the expense of board. The fact that they are kind and want to keep me around helps to make me more willing to work hard for them.

3) I'm already at the barn riding/teaching. So, I throw in a couple hours of weed-eating on the side, and I've made some extra cash. But, if I were just doing a couple hours of weed-eating, I'm not sure I'd make the 25-minute drive out to the barn.

4) In the summer, I can spend as much time as I want doing the weed-eating (I'm a teacher...I could get into THAT conversation, too, but I won't). So, I could go ride in the morning and hang out with my horse as much as I want. Then, I could weed-eat for several hours...or even six or seven! The fact that I can make the job bigger and get more cash flow makes it worth it.

KayBee
Apr. 20, 2011, 04:29 PM
Contract the labour, not employee, although you will still need their full mailing address, phone number and social security number. Then you don't have to do deductions (that becomes THEIR responsibility at tax time). At the end of the tax year, you just fill out the regular contractor tax form (can't remember what it's called in the US) and give them that at the end of the year. I worked as a contracted medical transcriptionist for American companies for 15 years. Never had deductions and was always paid piece work or day rate for minimum amount of work done. If I got that work done in 3 hours, I still got paid my full day rate the same as if it took me 8 hours to do. The onus is on the contractor to get the work done as efficiently as possible to the standards laid out in the contract.


The other advice seems good, but I think tax law has changed. If your contractor is NOT working on the premises of the employer AND they are using their own tools (ie, computer) you can pay someone as a contractor as you describe.

However, it gets iffy if you ARE working on premises and the tools of your trade ARE provided by your employer, the situation changes and the employer should be taking out payroll taxes. I know of several companies that have gotten in trouble for paying contractors as W-9 employees in recent years, and now, even if I'm only working 2 week gig for an employer, they take out payroll taxes for me.

My only caveat to the above is I'm not positive that this applies to people who are not working full time (less than 40 hrs/week) and/or work for less than 3 months and/or are agricultural workers.

I'd investigate these aspects beforehand.


The form is called a W-9 for contractors. It is mailed out once a year to each of your independent contractors. They are considered to be Self-Employed Independent Contractors. They can work as many barns/farms as they want and can set their own hours. You can contract a general time frame in which the work must be completed, in your case, cleaned stalls completed before 5 PM, for example, but you cannot state they HAVE to be there by 8 AM.

Tell your W-9 contractors, they can deduct travel expenses to and from their contractor work sites, i.e. (gas, car maintenance. They must keep a mileage log which the IRS can ask to see at any time within 10 years). They can also deduct tools-of-trade expenses as well, i.e. specific clothing and boots for the work. They must keep receipts. (and going willy-nilly shopping spree for clothing will not be accepted by the IRS as reasonable deductions - it must be specific work clothes and work boots).

This seems like good advice, but again, I'd investigate before dispensing advice such as this to employees... (Not saying you're wrong, rodawn, just better safe than sorry.)

rodawn
Apr. 20, 2011, 04:56 PM
It's fine to comment on my post, because I'm not American. I just worked for American companies and they did this for me - issue a W9. It was fine since I set my own hours and worked for any number of businesses and no one employer could limit my income by denying me the ability to work 7 days a week, if I so choose. I also registered as a business, and registering a business name is rather straight forward.

I would think barn labor could be one of those exceptions, especially since you pretty much have to work at the location - you can't up and move the barn to the contractor's location.

It's just an idea that is worth looking into as a possible solution.

And again, you have to be careful on terminology - you can't say any of this to employees. But you can discuss these things with CONTRACTORS.

The IRS has a clear definition of what constitutes a contractor. So does Revenue Canada, for Canadian barn owners who might be looking at this option. I know a barn in Calgary that just went all contractor instead of employees. Including their trainers, and stall cleaners. And the barn could indeed state certain aspects of the work had to be completed before X time of the day.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html

The major questions the IRS asks are:
1) Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?
Only in terms of the list of duties that is required to be completed for remuneration. Company cannot tell contractor when or by what means to complete said list of tasks.
2) Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)
contractor must bill Farm/company for services rendered and must provide an invoice. Farm/Company then remunerates according to invoice.
3) Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?
There is a written contract. This is a legal requirement actually in order to be a contractor. However, there is no pension plan, insurance, etc., as that implies a employer/employee relationship and the claim would be denied.

The big question that might be the problem is "Is the work performed a key aspect of the business" although when I worked as a transcriptionist for the companies, that is the one and only key aspect of a MT business and I was still a contractor. The company could even supply the equipment and I was still a contractor. Company could ask me to provide to them my intended work schedule, but they could not tell me I HAD to work certain predefined days or predefined shifts.

Prime Time Rider
Apr. 27, 2011, 12:34 AM
I pay a part-time worker to muck out five stalls and clean and refill water buckets $20 per day, 7 days a week. I don't care what time the worker shows up as long as it's still daylight and I don't care how long it takes him to complete the job. Our current part-time worker is a full-time groom at another private barn about 3 or 4 miles away. He comes to our farm generally after 5 pm or on his lunch hour. I pay him extra on a per task basis for occassional extra work such as mane pulling. We also pay a little extra ($5 or $10) for bringing in the horses if I can't get home in time and we always pay a Christmas bonus plus a little gift. Over the past five years that we have owned our small horse farm we've had five or six different part-time workers. The worst was a teen-age boy who talked on his cell phone constantly and wasn't very motivated. The best worked for us for about 3 years until he was deported and was almost like family. Since we pay by the job, not by the hour, most of our workers (excepting the teenage boy) are fairly expedient at getting the job done but still get the job done well. I always make a point to go out to the barn and greet our barn worker if I am home, ask how they are and thank them. When the weather is hot I offer them bottled water or a soft drink. I make certain that the equipment they are using is in good working order and ask them if they need anything. In short, I try to be a good employer and let our workers know that I appreciate them.

It's difficult to find good, reliable workers who are willing to do manual labor for relatively low wages. We feel fortunate to have reliable barn help and treat our workers with respect. Our last three part-time workers came to us through referrals of other workers who left our employment for various reasons. In fact, our last worker found his own replacement! I have to believe it is because we treat our barn help well and as a result have developed a reputation for being good employers.

Kate66
Apr. 27, 2011, 08:35 AM
I have 2 horses being kept fairly long term on pasture where I am not present. I pay the woman across the road $7.50/day to feed them once a day. She lives maybe 800' from my barn and I don't care when she does it. I can't imagine that from the time she leaves her house, to the time she gets back into her house it takes more than 20 mins.

kristinq
Apr. 27, 2011, 01:35 PM
most substitute teachers that I know in my area get paid $100/day for 7 hours...that is less than $15/hour.

So, you're comparing underpaid workers to other underpaid workers? :eek: ;)

danceronice
Apr. 27, 2011, 03:59 PM
It's difficult to find good, reliable workers who are willing to do manual labor for relatively low wages.

Why do you suppose that is? For someone with another full-time job, if you don't care when things get done or being lower on their priority list, $20/day would be okay. But otherwise that's a pittance for hard physical work. Unless it only takes two hours total to do everything and you pay extra for anything beyond that.

Silvercrown90
Apr. 27, 2011, 04:14 PM
I didn't read any of the responses yet (I'm a bit behind!!), but I used to pay $20 for someone to come out for about 30-45 minutes of work. The time and trouble that it takes for someone to come to my house has to be a minimum of $20 in my opinion.

Don't forget that the person has to pay for gas and wear and tear on their vehicle to get there. Plus even though in my case it was only 30 minutes of work, most people lost at least an hour of their day because of a 15-minute commute (round trip 30 minutes). They also had to spend time getting ready (most people don't wear barn clothes around the house) -- change clothes, put on muck boots depending on the weather, etc. So if you factor in everything, their time spent was at least 1 hour and 30 minutes even though the actual work was only 30 - 45 minutes.

I wouldn't change clothes and drive anywhere for $8 or $10.

Sharon

Prime Time Rider
Apr. 28, 2011, 12:58 AM
Why do you suppose that is? For someone with another full-time job, if you don't care when things get done or being lower on their priority list, $20/day would be okay. But otherwise that's a pittance for hard physical work. Unless it only takes two hours total to do everything and you pay extra for anything beyond that.

Actually, it generally takes someone an hour, maybe a hour and a half TOPS to clean my five stalls and water buckets. My horses are out all day everyday unless the weather is terrible (thunderstorms, sleet) so the stalls aren't too dirty. Also, I usually pick the stalls out again right before bedtime So, on an hourly basis they are getting paid between $15 and $20 an hour plus extra for any additional work. And, I don't care when things get done as long as the stalls are cleaned before dark.

Mosey_2003
Apr. 28, 2011, 09:32 AM
I wish I could find something like this really close to me but I agree, if it were any distance at all it wouldn't be worth the gas to get there.

danceronice
Apr. 28, 2011, 12:05 PM
Actually, it generally takes someone an hour, maybe a hour and a half TOPS to clean my five stalls and water buckets. My horses are out all day everyday unless the weather is terrible (thunderstorms, sleet) so the stalls aren't too dirty. Also, I usually pick the stalls out again right before bedtime So, on an hourly basis they are getting paid between $15 and $20 an hour plus extra for any additional work. And, I don't care when things get done as long as the stalls are cleaned before dark.

Which works (as does the $20 above for 30-45 minutes another poster offers.) If the person has another job (that would have to take priority as that one obviously pays their living, not pocket change.) If you're good with that, and didn't mind them not putting you first (I never understand secondary employers expecting to be anyone's first priority when they know their employees make their real living from someone else) then it works and sounds fair.

The problem is 1. people who think they should get BNT-style barn service from employees paid $10/hour, which takes at least five hours a day, and 2. (the bigger issues) labor willing to take that, driving the price down for anyone else. Biggest problem obviously being illegals, who can work for less and save the employer money on taxes, and working students/working off board, where they're getting goods for services. You can't pay someone who's a legal, documented worker who is strictly being hired for cash like you'd pay a fifteen-year-old working for rides and some spare change. Or "partially" paid housing as compensation (which carries with it an expectation you're pretty much always on-call as you live on-site) when the money attached doesn't make up for the un-covered living expenses.