Oakleigh's Comment: we do not have is a program of trainers ... [Archive]

Hidden Hill Farm

Dec. 2, 2003, 08:01 AM

Being on both sides of this issue, I have a different perspective. We breed and buy very young stock, raise, break, train and sell our own quality warmblood horses. My husband has been riding and training professionally for almost 20 years.

With so many young horses at home right now, the glory is minimal for him. However, the progress we're making is wonderful, but very time consuming. We have about 32 horses here right now and all but 3 of them are our own sale horses. We've got a few nice warmblood mares (young show prospects, not career broodmares) in foal right now and so they're off the ride list until their babies are weaned.

However, on a normal day, we have around 17+ to ride. That's just our horses -- an easy day in the winter (with so much less daylight) is around 13 horses. I also have a couple breeder friends that I work with. They send their young stock and put a set price on it.
Whatever I turn it into once it's here is ours on top for labor, board and horse show fees.
It's a risk, but the horses are very nice and I can make enough money to make it worth doing.

However, I have also lost a ton of money by taking "consignment horses". The horses were not what they were supposed to be. I asked for statements in writing as to the level of training and description of the horse -- all lies. The breeder/owner went behind my back directly to the customer and screwed me. (The woman used to post on the bb). After this happened, I decided NO more consignment horses and I would be VERY cautious about "partnerships". SO, now I only deal with a couple people who I know very well. Point being, there are crooked trainer, owners, breeder...I'm a straight shooter as those of you who know me know.... so, I just cut those types of people right on out of my life and my business. It's simply not worth the risk -- or my reputation.

I don't know exactly what the answer is, but there seems to be a solution for some people.
It's just got to work for everyone involved. A friend of mine breeds lovely warmbloods, and has a situation like that worked out with a local trainer. I don't know exactly what she has offered him, or what scale they plan on taking this to as far as horse showing... However, so far, it has worked well for her. I will be interested to know how it goes in the future.

However, in response to the comment about needing trainers to bring young stock along affordably... I agree, but as to how to do that....I just don't know. In order to run a top notch facility, it costs money. It costs me almost $600/ mo. just to tie up a stall. That includes 2 full time grooms/ and a part time person/ plus my husband and I working full time -- daily grain, hay, shavings, turn out, blanket changes...that's my cost. So, if you factor in training time. I just can't afford to do it for under $1200/mo. That's $23 a ride as the horses work 6 days a week. Well, if my husband drives off the farm to ride, it's $50/a ride. (Which he doesn't do anymore) We don't have boarders because we can't afford them. We don't solicit full training customers because we do much better with our own horses. However, I do keep a couple stalls designated for people who really want to send their horses. -- Never more than 3 at a time. It's just not cost effective when we could be working one of our own.

Look at your cost of breeding a youngster, getting it started (basics) and old enough to actually do something at the shows... and what do you have $10-12k at least.
Ok, so add to that, the cost of horse shows, and you're going to EASILY have an extra $15k into a nice horse before anyone even knows who the horse is...

I think that a possible solution (which an international GP rider friend of mine suggested-- and it has worked for him) is a 50% partnership. You hand over the raw material with a 50% ownership and send the horse off for full training. You pay the costs of keeping the horse only, but no training fees. You pay the horse show entries, but no extra fees (the trainer is earning that in sweat equity).
You let the horse go for a couple years and hope that he turn out to be something worth a decent 6 figures... and if that is the case you will end up with half. SO, if you breed a baby, have $10k in it by the time he's 3 y.o. send it off for a couple years and have (realistically) $30k in it, and it sells for $175k you end up with $87,500 minus the $30k initial investment for a profit of $57,500.

If you look at the stock market, and money market rates, it's not a bad idea if you've got a really nice horse that is going to be worth some serious money. For a mediocre horse, it's obviously not worth it to either trainer or breeder.

As a breeder, I know I've got around $6k in a foal when it hits the ground if all goes well. By the time we break them at three we've probably got at least $10k invested. So, would I take the chance and send them off if I couldn't do it myself? I just don't know. I don't think the problem is the trainers or the breeders (everyone needs to make a living). The problem is that it just plain costs money to breed, raise, train and show horses.

The business woman/ rider/ trainer side of me is mildly offended by the comment "we need trainers to help get our youngstock to the show rings"... Well, yeah, I need someone to come do the electrical work in my barn because I don't know how to do it, but I have to pay for it because my electrician has fees that he charges to do the job. If I could get someone to come over and "help" me do it, I'd be thrilled, but I seriously doubt that's going to happen!

I'm mildly tired of people complaining about training fees -- until you've walked a mile in the shoes of a trainer trying to make a living....

Oldenburg Mom hit the nail on the head when she said "exceptional young stock". For anything less than an exceptional horse, it's just going to be worth it.

I'm not slamming Oakleigh...we've been struggling with the idea of gelding our lovely colt. It's not been an easy decision, but we are going to geld him this winter. We may collect him and then geld him, but I don't thing raising a young stallion prospect (and going through the whole approval thing) in the US makes any sense for us either.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 2, 2003, 08:16 AM

Hotdog! A reply.

And what a reply ... thanks very much indeed Hidden Hill for taking the time to write a lengthy and explicit reply.

And yes, I believe the way to go is the 50% route. Absolutely. That is the only way to make it worthwhile for the trainer. And yes, exceptional is the right way.

I think this is the way it should work: an agreement is made--partner on a horse with trainer. In my case, because I'm a BUYER, I'm trying to be an intermediary between breeder and trainer, so in fact what I'm doing is fronting candidates from the breeder to the trainer. Again, you hit the nail on the head: exceptional qualilty, e.g., one of the ones I'm looking at has Olympic sire on the top and bottom. I think that's one that --at a minimum--should be evaluated.

The youngster grows up AT the breeders' farm, until 3.5 yrs, then goes to trainers' farm. The trainer does an evaluation for one month, whether she/he believes there is talent. No talent? Sell and cut losses.

Talent? Take him/her as far as she will go.

That's what I'm thinking. And as far as I can see there's no downside. EVERYONE's a$$ is covered.

The problem is finding the RIGHT trainer. And you're absolutely correct. My biggest worry at this point is finding one that's honest. Because we're talking about a multi-year agreement here.

What's your take on this ....

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Hidden Hill Farm

Dec. 2, 2003, 08:37 AM

I completely agree. I think it could work. However, I think breeders need to be realistic and use an opportunity like that to promote their farm and their horses and not look at it as a one shot deal money making opportunity.

Many trainers do not have the luxury of time to take on a horse like that. It needs to be a candidate who has been in the area for a long time, has enough skill and experience but is still hungry enough to want to do something like that. Yes, really hard to find the right person. However, I think it's a great idea.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 2, 2003, 08:59 AM

Yeah, the trainer is the problem.

Any suggestions about finding the right one? Any criteria to ask about or attributes to consider?

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Dec. 2, 2003, 09:11 AM

Be VERY careful about partnerships. I have heard more of them going sour than being successful - especially in the horse business. If you didn't already have someone in mind, or someone that you've worked with, before you bought your stallion prospect, then I'm already hesitant for you.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 2, 2003, 09:25 AM

RP -

No this has nothing to do with him. This is going forward.

I'm quite excited about this, ... any suggestions about finding someone? What's your take on all this?

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

cyriz's mom

Dec. 2, 2003, 09:33 AM

Boy can I relate to this.

I have a 4 y.o. TB stallion who's been approved by the RPSI and who will go to the 100 day in August.

This is all new to me...breeding and stallion approvals. My situation is a little different as the stallion was GIVEN to my husband and I as a wedding present by a family friend who races TBs, so doing a partnership isn't an option and no matter what happens with our guy, he'll have a home for life. I didn't go looking for stallion prospect, he landed in my lap and with encouragement from others, decided to see what kind of potential he has. So far, it's been worth it, but I know that 2004 will be very stressful for me...first year trying to get outside mares, first year competing, preparing for the 100 day and then letting strangers have my baby for 100 days. Hopefully it will all be worth it.

I have found a couple in Texas who have been recommended to me. She's German and he's Swiss (I believe). He used to work for the RPSI preparing young stock for approvals/testing. They are going to help me prepare Cyriz for the test. I'm thankful that I found them, because while there are great trainers in North Texas, I don't know how many have experience preparing young stallions and their training fees are very high and out of my budget.

I also have some 3 and 4 year olds who are now all jumping around 2 - 2'6" and show quite a bit of potential. My challenge in selling them has been that the "A" show trainers around here don't seem to be interested in training and only want made horses jumping 3 - 3'6" with lots of miles. That's not my program. I don't want to keep them that long. I believe some have six figure potential, but I don't have the capital to get them there. I'm pretty open to out-of-the-box solutions, but haven't had much luck.

cyriz's mom

Dec. 2, 2003, 09:38 AM

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 2, 2003, 09:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I believe some have six figure potential, but I don't have the capital to get them there. I'm pretty open to out-of-the-box solutions, but haven't had much luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly my point. Breeders don't have the capital.

And, I don't believe it would be a problem for you to give away half of your 6-figure boy, would it? But, and there is always a but, the issue is the trainer.

I've got a call into GM to see what he has to say about all this. What his thoughts are, what he thinks. That's assuming, of course, he even returns my phone call (HIGHLY unlikely!)

I feel like putting an ad in CoTH: Wanted. Trainers looking for exceptional YOUNG horses to bring along --- salary: a cut of the action! LOL. OF course, the other issue is, "How good is the trainer?"

There's got to be an answer out there somewhere!

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Heather

Dec. 2, 2003, 10:35 AM

I don't want to make this a "disciplinist" thing, but it occurs to me that a potential problem would be that different discplines have different resources. The truht is, the discipline that would have the most rainers who would be intereted in this sort of deal is eventing. BUT, eventing horses don't go for one millionth the $$ that the other disciplines do, they aren't particularly wild about full warmbloods, and it's been nolted that hunter/jumper people only like to deal with hunter/jumper people--you could have the next Rox Dene in your barn, but if you're not a known hunter trainer, it can be murder getting them out to look at it.

The fact that so many hunter/jumper don't want anything but made horses leads me to question whether or not there are many hunter/jumper trainers who would have the knowledge or interst in doing a partnership on a young horse? But, that IS where the big bucks are.

I think this isn't a bad idea, but I think the conitnually difficult challenge to overcome is the dearth of people who can and will work with young horses. The money issue is almost secondary.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 2, 2003, 10:55 AM

Heather,

While money DOES, obviously, play an important part in this, it is my belief that this is not primarily an issue of cash or discipline. The primary issue here is quality.

Finding the exceptional quality, I believe, in the US takes time, and I believe it's there. And THAT's what's important, not the discipline.

Because, as we all know. There is NO money in horses. You do it for the love.

The problem with this idea is finding the right trainer that cares about younguns. And is willing to bring them on s-l-o-w-l-y. This, in turn, will/would be good for all parties. Breeders, trainers, horses (me too!)

Does this make sense? I've tried writing it three times and I may not be making myself clear.

OH, and yes, you are absolutely correct. There is a dearth of people willing to work with young horses.

I'm planning a trip to Germany next October. If I have not found a suitable trainer I will look at "importing" one. I believe this is too good an opportunity to pass up... and if I fail I will learn faaaar more.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Gettin Jiggy with it

Dec. 2, 2003, 01:11 PM

Well I would just like to say that there are honest trainers out there wanting something like this. I for example have many years training young horses up to modified grand prix level (haven't had the horse with true Grand Prix talent yet) and also have three young stallions that I am bringing up very carefully. One problem is that people don't want to give up 50% of thier horse and also people don't want to invest in young horses. I have two 2.5 year olds both imported that are going to be worth 6 figures one as a jumper the other as a hunter and am trying to find an invester with no luck. I also know of a 4.5 year old mare in Holland who is going to be worth a ton within 2 years but don't have the money myself only the the training expertise.

PaintBy#s

Dec. 2, 2003, 01:30 PM

Another "option" (chose a certain breeder except), is that before you going looking for that "made" trainer...

...Search for that young rider with the POTENTIAL to be a "made" trainer/rider...

Now that I have looked, visited local shows...inspections..anything horse related really, I have seen several talented young riders. (ages 14-18+)

I made the mistake early on of trying to go out and BUY my horses (notice horses plural) looking for that "special horse"(quality) to help me get to the levels I was ready for/and needed a mount for...

I was training with an instructor that eventually I outgrew, and coming from a family of NO horse background struggled to find new trainers etc.

ANyways my point?

There are many young riders out there struggling to find quality mounts, coming from families of no horse background, with not enough $$ to by the high quality...that would LOVE to meet breeders willing to send them horses or willing to let them ride for them... breeder pays boarding/vet/farrier etc....student pays shows maybe?

And eventually what happens is your horses get the miles they NEED to attract those already "made" trainer/riders...

If you keep stock at home, there is no extra cost to you, and most striving, young talent riders don't want money for their skills, just the quality animal to get them out to the shows, so they can get recognized and move up...

You horse is getting quality training/riding and showing...for not much more $$ then you already spend on them... and your helping a talented young rider, prosper and work their way to being "made"...

I know some irresponsible young riders have ruined it for the worthy ones, but the quality young riders ARE out there... just have faith,do "trials" and give it time....

Just a thought....

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 2, 2003, 01:38 PM

Hey KT - please let us know if GM gives you a response. From recent personal experience I can say that Hunterdon is not the best place for a young horse. Training young horses is not the focus of that facility.

Having said that I think it is a great idea to talk to as many people about this as possible. Just by your post - I now know about Hidden Hill farm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. They sound like they have a good/well thought out program.

It is very frustrating as a lot of this is "On the job training" for breeders to find the next step for their young horses. I have been most happy with the event riders who have started my young horses. They understand the concept of "going forward" and making things interesting for the horse.

I think that it is rare to find one trainer that will be able to start a horse and then go on and successfully compete/market the horse to be sold for good $$. Having gone through this a few times - the top riders/trainers don't want to take the risk of getting hurt with a youngster. The people who are good at starting the youngsters don't always have the neccessary "polish" to do well in the show ring (don't mean to offend anyone here).

It would be great to develope a "directory" of farms that are like Hidden Hill Farm. Of course for programs like this to be successful the breeders need to be realistic and not be "barn blind" about what they really have.

MsHunter

Dec. 2, 2003, 02:50 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ok add me to the list. I dont advertise and am usually always full, but my farm has a link and some of the horses I have started are on the page. Crystalacres who posts here knows first hand we can get them going correctly and affordably. Of course she threw a few curve balls along the way, 1) showing on the line while being started u/s, 2) getting bred, 3) showing while bred and doing the YHUS. We didn't send her home polished but in the 3 months we started her she could w/t/c be quiet not need a lunge (oops Kell we didnt teach her that) and go in the ring and garnish awards.
It is amazing how many people aren't aware of who does this for a living!

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

Celtic Witch

Dec. 2, 2003, 04:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Laurie@CBF:
I think that it is rare to find one trainer that will be able to start a horse and then go on and successfully compete/market the horse to be sold for good $$. The people who are good at starting the youngsters don't always have the neccessary "polish" to do well in the show ring (don't mean to offend anyone here).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is hard to find such a trainer in the US as they are all but non-existant.

I have my stallion with a great stallion producer in Holland. I have spent my entire equine career starting horses and dealing with remedials. I hope to combine the two by spending a month this winter with my Dutch trainer to learn just how he puts the polish on the stallions for their licensing and 100 Day Tests and going back for more training. However, I've no idea how many new customers this is going to earn me as I am not a big name.

In my experiences on the other side of the fence, these are the problems we trainers face;

#1 -Y'all want a big a name, top notch facility, world class care and a backyard price.

#2 -90% of all owners are completely barn blind and I have been misled to the point where I not only lose money but my and my staff's wellbeing were put in danger. Therefore, I would not be keen to jump into a partnership such as Hidden Hill's. With time and trust, I would do it, but not from the outset.

#3 -Everyone wants to reproduce the European system but on their own terms to the point where it is not possible financially.

Now, I am very realistic about my skills. I can start a horse beautifully (including all basic manners needed by a horse who will be stabled and competed) and get him to 2nd level dressage and jumping courses of 3'6 nicely. I can even introduce the horse to showing. What I cannot and will not do is campaign someone else's horse. I lack the polish needed to do a really good job as I'm working with a psychologist to overcome my nerves (I try too hard). Reading Geoff Teal's article in PH was all too familiar.

Now, I can get a horse to the level where a bigger name trainer is going to look at him for around $750 a month. But that is with more European style care than US "A" barn.

I have just bought land in South Carolina to be improved with the use of the neighbouring facility. If someone were to set up an operation similar to the youngstock yards in Europe, how many of you are really going to get behind it and support it with your horses?

Susie

Sporthorse South

Dec. 2, 2003, 05:26 PM

Susie, get in touch when you relocate to South Carolina. I know quite a few folks in GA/SC/NC who are looking for trainers to start youngsters in both dressage and h/j. We thought about doing it at the facility I am affiliated with, but decided instead to focus on the 4 y/o and up crowd, mostly due to space and time constraints.

Celtic Witch

Dec. 2, 2003, 05:51 PM

Sporthorse South -I will definitely do that. I have the option go now, without my husband, but I'm not too sure how good that will be for my marriage! If all goes as planned, I intend to move in winter 2004.

Cheers,
Susie

Hidden Hill Farm

Dec. 2, 2003, 06:28 PM

Regarding Celtic Witch's post maybe I should clarify.

We own 100% of our horses. They are not "partnership deals". I do not offer "partnerships" or jump into anything.

When I said I am on both sides of the issue, I meant that it is because I am a breeder and my husband is a professional trainer.

I ONLY work with a couple close breeder friends as favors. I do lots of business with them (we buy horses from them) and we are in contact almost daily. I do not need to take horses in partnership, I have just agreed to do it on a small scale because I trust the people I am dealing with 100%.

A year ago, I took a few consignment horses, and we learned a very big lesson. Consignment horses are just not for us.

I think that the concept of partnering is an interesting one. Obviously, it would need to be entered into very carefully. However, when you're a breeder sitting at home with a talented youngster and you can't afford to take him to the top, it might just be worth a try. Sometimes you have to look at things optimistically and say nothing ventured is nothing gained.

For example:
We buy horses off of video ALL THE TIME. I don't have time to go running all over the world looking at horses, and many times, the good ones are gone before you can even get a plane ticket. Many people think that is a huge risk -- one they would never take. It's just a different perspective.

[This message was edited by Hidden Hill Farm on Dec. 02, 2003 at 09:47 PM.]

TKR

Dec. 2, 2003, 07:27 PM

Maybe the "young rider" idea is a good place to start. A young rider with good skills working with a good (big name, perhaps) trainer -- maybe a working student or "understudy" -- who is serious about riding and bringing along some nice sponsored horses would be helpful to both parties as well amenable to the trainer.
PSG

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 3, 2003, 05:40 AM

Well, first, thanks everyone for replying.

Second, there are some great ideas being thrown around here. And when I had such an awful day yesterday, believe me, this has started today off with a cheerful pat on the back. Thanks!

Ok, down to business.

First, Gettin Jiggy with it (I assume it's an alter LOL) You are RIGHT! There are honest trainers out there wanting something like this. The problem is finding them. As we all know the horse business is riddled with dishonest people looking to make a fast buck by selling or misreprenting a horse. Just look at the current scandal going on with USA Eq.

As far as your remark about giving up 50% of a horse for training, I have no problem doing that... and I don't believe most breeders would either. Again, I think it all depends upon a couple things: the quality of the foal and bloodlines; the "evaluation" period of 1 month; the willingness to try something different ... which may fail!

And, I also believe this is the way to help the US breeder be more competitive in the world market. I think you breeders out there are producing some astonishing horses ... I know, I saw them at the breed shows this past summer. Getting them OUT and CAMPAIGNED is the name of the game. But the trainer can't do it on his own, neither can the breeder. And an owner has to have major bucks to do so. Most owners don't. HOWEVER, working together, with each person putting in their expertise effort and time, a young horse CAN be campaigned.

Celtic - here are my thoughts -

#1. Yup, you're right. We all want that for our animals. Everyone needs to know "this ain't gonna happen."

#2. I agree. I had my come-uppance this summer at the breed shows. They are an excellent testing ground for what you've got.

#3. You're probably right. I refuse to deal with ANYONE who is not realistic about the road ahead. For example, with my stallion prospect: I am hopeful but know that the chances of him being approved are veryveryvery slim. That doesn't mean you don't try. It just means it's going to be a very long and difficult road.

Let me throw this out for consideration: what would you folks think of a internet site where trainers and breeders could "meet" with the specific idea of doing "deals" like this on individual horses?

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 3, 2003, 05:45 AM

Oh, and the young rider is NOT the way to go. The young rider could be brought in to 'campaign' a prospect, but not in the initial training stage.

The objective here is CORRECTLY started. And SLOWLY so the horse has a long and productive life and is not fried mentally by the time he's three and a half.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

PaintBy#s

Dec. 3, 2003, 07:37 AM

OM- By young rider I was not meaning inexperienced/not qualified.

There are many young riders that CAN start CORRECTLY and proceed SLOWLY at the horses pace....

Give young riders a chance...they are the future http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And some youngins (and by this I mean 15-18 yrs old+) that I have seen personally knock your socks off so to speak.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

jackie

Dec. 3, 2003, 08:57 AM

This is an interesting discussion as I have the same problem--Obviously I did not think this out very well when I started down this path. (I must have thought I was going to win the lottery-or else have a litter of horse crazy girl children-neither of which is good business planning!)

I have been thinking about partnerships too.I wonder whether most breeders could realistically give up 50 percent of the horse while still ending up with showing fees, board etc. (I gather most professionals would not go for a 50 percent split of all the fees-showing, board, training, riding on an unknown product?)

You would be giving up 50 percent of the horse-for training/schooling fees- which are usually, by far, smallest part of the bill - while still likely to have a very large monthly bill for showing, board etc.

I guess my only hope is to arrange a ship-in-for- schooling and meet-you-at-the-show approach with local talent once my babies outgrow my w-t-c talents?

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 3, 2003, 09:09 AM

Jackie,

I don't think the partnership route is necessarily so cut and dried. Personally, I have different arrangements with different partners.

For example: I bought my Florida horse. My partner pays for board, food, feet, etc. I contribute to vet and pay insurance. Show fees I pay for and she hauls at her expense. It is working so well I am thinking of doing another one with her in June. Don't forget, she's in charge of her training.

Quite frankly, she's having a delightful time with the horse. She loves her to bits and is looking forward to honing her skills.

The hunter/jumper prospect is a different can of worms. This boy is a stallion prospect thus I need a different type of trainer. Plus, he really is world-class, with his bloodlines. So I need a trainer that has a lot more experience under her/his belt. I'm looking for the right one, hence the call to GM.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Gettin Jiggy with it

Dec. 3, 2003, 10:13 AM

Now how would one go about finding investors in young horses? I do have the ability to train them from start to finish, I have the horses that are young and still relativly inexpensive, but don't know how to convince people that investing in a horse is a good idea. Any thoughts?

To Oldenburg mom I wish you were closer to the frozen north as your young stallion sounds very nice and I bet he would turn heads at Spruce.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 3, 2003, 10:31 AM

Hey Jiggy -

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Now how would one go about finding investors in young horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends upon the investment required ($1,000? 10,000? $100,000?) And of course, your track record. And the track record of any horses you've bred and sold...

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Gettin Jiggy with it

Dec. 3, 2003, 11:00 AM

OK

the one is a coming 5 year old KWPN mare top ten in free jumping competition in Holland and is now doing very well in the 4 year old jumpers in Holland. Top bloodlines easy to ride 16.3 and impressive, an upper level horse with the mind for a Jr/Am. Investment would be 30,000 investor owns 50% I train and show, investor pays 50% of fees or none and I get a 15% commision off the top when we sell.

My record is good I have shown to 1.50 jumpers at 'A' shows including Spruce have won a number of times at Spruce and do a good job with starting (yes I get weekly lessons as I feel you are never done learning). So I am not a big name, but am getting better known all the time. This particular horse would be one that I would want sold within a year as she is at a prime age.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 3, 2003, 11:17 AM

Having said that, let me get this straight.

Mary is your investor. So, Mary gives you $30,000 and for that she owns 50% of the horse. That means the horse is currently up for sale for $60,000.

The horse lives with you (???) and you would spend X amount of time per day with this mare? You would also show her in ??? shows?

So tell me, are YOU the breeder?

Anyway, you would show her and price her at ???. Let's say, $90,000? And you get lucky enough to sell her at that price.

SO! Your partner gets her $30K back plus $15K back. If you pay entry fees the amount drops to $8,750?

Hmmmm. Well on paper it looks good. But as an investor, I sure wouldn't tie up that much unless I was pretty darn sure I could considerably appreciate the horse within 6-12 months. Which I believe is a pretty tall order.

What IS this horse currently on the market for?

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Gettin Jiggy with it

Dec. 3, 2003, 11:47 AM

So as an investor would it look better to Mary if she put up an inital fee and then no other money or would it be better for a lower initial investment and then pay fees on top? And if she put up $30,000 and the horse sells within a year for $90,000 she makes $15,000 is that not a good profit margin especially if I were to cover all expenses? I would also have it in the contract that investors is garanteed to get back inital investment in case of death or disability (this is why a mare and insurance lots and lots of insurance).

I am just trying to get some ideas as to what potential investors want to see so thank you for your input.

By the way this horse isn't on the market in Holland and horses of her caliber have sold for between $100,000 and $150,000 as 5 and 6 year olds in my area so I think $90,000 would be very realistic.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 3, 2003, 12:04 PM

Jiggy,

Personally, I'd look for a lower initial investment. And the fees. What are we talking about here?

Plus if you were presenting this to a potential investor I would want to see YOUR record of achievements, PLUS similar horse achievements. Do you see where I'm going with this?

You are in a different position that the ones that I am looking at, as your girl has already started her career.

What was her price as a weener ... or yearling? Are we looking at $10K or $20K?

Plus, yes, $15,000 is a very good return for a year's investment of $30,000 ... obviously it's 50% of your investment. What I'd do is try and throw out some ideas and see what comes back.

If YOU are the breeder, then you already know where your market is... unless you've never sold any foals!

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

poltroon

Dec. 3, 2003, 05:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gettin Jiggy with it:
So as an investor would it look better to Mary if she put up an inital fee and then no other money or would it be better for a lower initial investment and then pay fees on top? And if she put up $30,000 and the horse sells within a year for $90,000 she makes $15,000 is that not a good profit margin especially if I were to cover all expenses? I would also have it in the contract that investors is garanteed to get back inital investment in case of death or disability (this is why a mare and insurance lots and lots of insurance).

I am just trying to get some ideas as to what potential investors want to see so thank you for your input.

By the way this horse isn't on the market in Holland and horses of her caliber have sold for between $100,000 and $150,000 as 5 and 6 year olds in my area so I think $90,000 would be very realistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're taking 15% off the top also, that's 90k - 13.5k = 76.5k which you then divide by two... so now the investor's return is $8,250, not $15k. Which is still good - but it is still a high risk investment.

As a horseman, I'd be concerned about what constitutes "disability" - a horse eats a lot while the diagnosis continues - and what if the horse just doesn't work out? It decides that it doesn't like collection and won't jump over water and needs a perfect ride? There are a lot of scenarios where the insurance doesn't pay off and the horse doesn't sell.

As an investor, I would be most interested in a scenario that does not involve me paying expenses - that is, that I put in an up front amount that limits my total loss to my initial investment. Horses (especially in training barns) eat so much so fast that you can easily drop $10-$20k a year in an urban environment on board and showing expenses. Even an expensive horse's profit can be literally eaten by a slow market or a year of inopportune stone bruises.

Khamian Farms

Dec. 4, 2003, 03:33 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

I've got a call into GM to see what he has to say about all this. What his thoughts are, what he thinks. That's assuming, of course, he even returns my phone call (HIGHLY unlikely!)

[B]OM - don't be surprised if he DOES call you back. I left a message at Hunterdon last month regarding a possible clinic in SC - GM himself called me back with the dates - left a message on my machine - shocked the heck out of me. Been afraid to call back, he might answer the phone http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Julie
www.caspianpony.com (http://www.caspianpony.com)

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 4, 2003, 04:30 AM

Poltroon,

Glad to see you chime in here. Your comment - <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>As an investor, I would be most interested in a scenario that does not involve me paying expenses - that is, that I put in an up front amount that limits my total loss to my initial investment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
is exactly right.

Let's talk specific hypothetical scenario here.

We've got investor
We've got breeder
We've got trainer

Breeder has exceptional horse. Let's say this horse is on the market for $20,000 and it's only a yearling. Investor says, I'm interested, I think this is an interesting proposition. Here's HALF your asking price. We're partners. We want Julie to train. Julie, in two years this boy comes to your farm for training. When he arrives he will be familiar with saddle, bridle, and immaculate ground manners But not yet backed. You have one month, Julie, to evaluate him for potential. At the end of one month he is either sold or Julie begins to seriously train.

THAT's an example of what I think would work. And I think it's a win-win situation for everyone.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 4, 2003, 04:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Khamian Farms:
OM - don't be surprised if he DOES call you back. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll let you know as I think I'd keel over in a dead faint if he did.

He's the guy who'd know, however. Now if I can just get him to pick up the phone ...

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Dec. 4, 2003, 04:52 AM

SO, are you asking the trainer to be a third partner (if the horse has potential)?

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 4, 2003, 05:08 AM

RP,

Yes, in certain circumstances. In the particular situation I cited above, it would be because of the potential of the horse, and of course, the pricetag. $20,000 for a yearling is a LOT of cash. I don't have it. And the breeder doesn't have it to spend for training fees. And the trainer doesn't have it to buy this nice of a foal and keep it for two-three years just eating.

I have a horse that I've partnered WITH the trainer (the breeder was paid the full asking price) as it was a much less valuable horse ... bloodlines nice but not as nice. And the $$ price was 1/4 of the example cited above. She lives in FL.

I think the key here is that everyone is contributing a piece of the puzzle, if you will, to the benefit of everyone, including the horse. Don't forget, everytime that horse walks into the ring the breeder's name is being announced. The better the horse does, whether it be at a breed show, a hunter or dressage ring, whatever, the breeder's name is mentioned. As is the Trainer's.

You know what's funny? Location doesn't matter! You can have a trainer in CA, the breeder in GA and the investor in NY. Who cares? The only critical issue is trust. Trust and talent. And believe me, ... of the two I have learned the hard way, trust is the most important. And the most difficult.

But while I only have two horses in this program, I have to say, I'm having the time of my life! Whoohooo!

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Castlegate

Dec. 4, 2003, 05:20 AM

HEY OMOM: Glad you made that call to GM....by the way when I was a kid, I had the wonderful opportunity to meet and clinic with him several times....he is a lovely man and I will bet he DOES call you back....HE is a professional!

Hey and don't forget...I have 2 empty stalls....you find the next great baby...we need to talk!!!!

Hang in there...this thread has been full of good ideas!

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 4, 2003, 05:34 AM

Castlegate ...

I already have and am looking for a partner.

He/She is due to be born sometime in March. I thought I was going to have to give her up as the deal I was working on fell through.

Are you up for this? E-mail me and lets talk.

<KT is seen leaping for joy as she walks to get her Starbucks morning coffee.>

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

retreadeventer

Dec. 8, 2003, 06:10 PM

I apologize, as I've come in late in this discussion, but I've read through the posts, and I'd like to say that as one of the "honest trainers" everyone is looking for, where are you breeders and owners?
I have five empty stalls in my barn, a 2003 Dressage at Devon champion in hand this year, and I can't find a paying horse this winter.

All of this talk about partnerships and financial schemes really is just another way to get around the expenses of training and caring for good horses to insure they get the early education necessary to become expensive, saleable horses.

Most owners don't want to sell their horses for a profit, they want to have them trained first and then see if they can ride them or if they are good enough to compete for themselves, or breed. I think that is the difference in what the true commercial breeders want, and what the backyard breeders want. One really is in the market to sell and the other is not really

And with regard to the training and care of young horses, I can't wait to get more horses in my barn to train -- and I have a very reasonable rate -- and I am waiting. I live close to several big horse areas. We had a super competition record this year with three different horses. I have a new 2-year-old barn and two arenas plus an Exerciser, track, grass turnout. I built my farm for training young horses in dressage and eventing.
So my point is that the honest, classical, young-horse trainer is out there -- you just need to find us; because we're honest, we're poor, so we're off the beaten path!
Hollihorse

Don't underestimate the power of a single committed person. They say one person can't change the world, but indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

eurofoal

Dec. 8, 2003, 10:20 PM

Well, hmmm, lots of interesting ideas floating around here. The one thing that strikes me particularly is that in Europe, it seems like many, many more people are able to start their own horses and bring them up to an acceptable level. Whether they are actually doing the riding, or have staff members ( often young people), it seems like a higher percentage of them do more of their own work.

I have trained several dozen of my young horses to w/t/c under saddle. I keep thinking that I'm getting too old to do THAT again, but climbed up on my coming three yr old every day this week. I guess I feel that if I am capable of doing my own work, then I darn well better get out there and do it.

My TB's for sport were extremely hard to sell until riding age. The majority of them sold at prices pretty heavily in the red, even the nice ones. There was just too much competition from ex-racehorses and too many buyers willing to go that route. They went mostly to individuals, who had a trainer. They went to the shows, won at the shows... now, nearly all of these fancy tb's that I kept track of did really well. Several either sold for big bucks or the owners were offered and refused prices of 6 figures.

Now, the difference that I see between those owners and someone with a "sales" horse is: 1) They're at the A circuit shows and the horses are getting seen, and purchased, at these venues. But, the owners did it for fun and would have done it anyway. The horses were out and about enough, that they were consistantly in the ribbons.

2) Even with nice horses, buyers aren't necessarily lining up to buy them. It didn't matter, because they weren't "sales" horses.

Any given barn may be looking for one or two clients at any given time. Politics (we're in So. Cal) play a part, possibly a huge part. Trainers can gong a horse in 30 seconds flat and that horse will NEVER sell to that barn no way no how. I've had nice horses get gonged, and forget it, take them somewhere else to sell them. <and hope that nobody from the first barn is there visiting...> One trainer that's very well known around here once gonged a horse ("it couldn't jump..") that went to the Olympics a year later. We're still laughing about that!

When I have a "sale" horse-- everything spent is weighed on return for dollars spent. This goes from the moment of birth, when I immediately assume the stall cleaner postion, muck rake in hand, lest the horses assume that there's a helper lurking in those deeply bedded stalls somewhere.

For my older horses, this means that they are on a budget-- a show budget, a training budget, etc. It's naive to think that you have xx number of shows to sell your horse at and that there are any assurances that it will sell for xx dollars during that time. It may sell, but it might take longer, too. Or the offer may be less, or the horse got a stone bruise...

At Indio, for example, lots of horses change hands. Lots of horses brought there to sell come home without any nibbles, too. It's packed, it's huge, and there's no guarantee that anyone in particular will have successfully identified your horse and be actually watching your darling's round when the time comes. It's also, what, an 8 week show at $1000 per week? You're there weeks 1 & 2 and your potential buyer is there week 8.

Now, I didn't mean for this post to come out as negative as it may come across, but simply want to voice a caution that even the trained horse isn't necessarily the end of the equation or a guarantee of financial success.

Geez, I can't believe that I went on that long! (and on, and on and on...)

Jill
www.eurofoal.com (http://www.eurofoal.com)
European bloodlines made in America

Heather

Dec. 9, 2003, 07:13 AM

This has been a great thread--and I have a variety of thoughts.

I think a big issue touched on brilliantly in an earlier post, was the concept of the lack of respect young horse specialists recieve in this country. And that needs to change at the customer level. I've been thinking back . . . I was "raised" in my horsie education under a European model--two French trainers, both clasically educated (one a grduate of Haras and Saamur). We started our own young horses, and I loved it. They brought over from France a student of theirs to be a young horse specialist for them. I promise you, you have never seen someone more gifted in this department. She was literally worth her wieght in gold, and can put a start on a horse that would make you weep. She hated to show, and only wanted to ride babies.

You know what happened? It didn't work. Nearly every customer would get annoyed or complain that they were paying my "name" trainers, but this other "no name" was riding their horse. They wanted a discount, or to have a contract that only the trainer would ride them. He would repeatedly say, she's better than I am at this. But no one cared or believed. So the young horse specialist had to learn to teach beginner riders, and only rode youngsters owned by the trainers or customers who were smart enough to know what a treasure she was.

As I have mentioned before, this was a career path I wanted to chose when I was younger. But, I'm sorry, I'm not willing to work my tail off and take the risks for "a roof over my head, meal on the table, and no commute". I wouldn't have expected to get wealthy, but a living wage is a must. And it didn't exist for that profession, so I went to school and got a desk job.

So we need customers--breeders and owners of young horses-- to STOP looking at people's resumes in terms of what level have you ridden or how much showing have you done. Those same owners and breeders need to be EDUCATED (uh oh, there's the flamable word) to know good riding and good young horses development when they see it. If you aren't a rider anymore, that's fine, but I would humbly suggest if you aren't knowledgable enough about the type of riding you are breeding for to be able to pick out the talented young horse riders, then you probably aren't knowledgable enough to breed the proper horses.

As far as the partnership issue, we've done something like that with our youngster. We own him 100%, and pay his expenses. But JUST his expenses. What it costs to feed and clothe, etc. him, and entries, vet, shoer, etc. Our trainer donates her "time" because she believes in the horse's potential. (And for the record, she's a cci**** eventer who has consistently produced horses at the top levels, from scratch).

Neither of us is hot to sell him, because for her it's about a nice horse, and for us it's about a baby we intially bred for ourselves. But should the proverbial offer we can't refuse come down the pike, or he reach his limit of ability earlier than we plan, she will get double her normal commision on the sale to compensate her for the time she's put into to him.

Now, my trainer couldn't afford to do something like this on lots of horses. But for a truly excpetional one, I think you'd be able to make this sort of deal with a trainer.

The trick is that NO ONE really WANTS to be stuck with the monthly expenses, but that's frankly just part of the deal. If it's going to be left to the trainer, then they better get AT LEAST half the value of the horse. If left to the owner, then the trainer shouldn't expect to make as large a profit. Partnerships need to be approached from the angle of what is a workable solution to the problems of each partner, rather than a who can make the most money or get the biggest piecce of the pie.

Commercial breeders ARE at a disadvantage. But, I also think that the disconnect between breeders and riders isn't all from the rider side--breeders can be guilty of it as well.

As far as why Americans aren't interested in American bred horses--I think the reasons are myriad, but most of them boil down to one thing--education. Education on the part of American riders and trainers as to what's available here, and education on the part of breeders as to what people are willing to buy and pay for that's under the age of four. The truthful bottom line, is that breeders aren't stuggling because boatloads of American's are buying babies overseas. They are struggling because they are buying started, and often competitive horses for THE SAME PRICE as unstarted US-breds.

I've been toying with idea of buying a young Irish horse next year if I sell one of my horses. On a doemstic breeders site, I found a handsome four year old, closely related to a horse I rode briefly last year and fell in love with. According the site, he's had 30 days under saddle, no jumping, no hacking out. Price, $15,000.

For the same price, I can fly to Ireland and import a five year old, who has hunted for a full season and done 5 training level-equivalant horse trials. Now how much of a hit for the home team am I , as a consumer, expected to take? I admit it would be more patriotic to buy the US bred, and I'm sure the quality of one horse to another is comparable, but I don't even know if the US bred will jump, let alone go cross country. The imported horse had already proven he can do both.

So what's a consumer to do?

Wo this was really log and disjointed, but these are the things that go through my head.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 9, 2003, 07:28 AM

Well, I am reading ... no wrong word ... studying your comments Heather, Eurofoal and Hollihorse.

And I'm reading them specifically because I am just getting ready to commit to another baby, yes, with a partner.

AND, to be honest, I'm scared. All the "what if's" that crop up have me running for my proverbial bucket. Heck, I don't know if this is going to break my heart or not.

I do know this: if people don't TRY and improve the way things are done, TRY and find a way to get these exceptional horses to market, to find a way to make ... not a TON of money, just a little ... well, nothing will change. And just for all you folks out there ... yes, I am buying domestically.

I've hedged my bets as much as possible. I've tried to limit my liability, as well as my partners'

Now, all I can do i hope. And, at least THAT doesn't cost anything!

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

STF

Dec. 9, 2003, 07:34 AM

I think the key is finding someone that can bring these horses along correctly....not rush them and use the building blocks to do it right.

http://www.spindletopfarms.com
Swedish Warmblood Breeding
Offering foals by Rubignon - Vivaldi and now.....Pablo

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 9, 2003, 07:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by STF:
I think the key is finding someone that can bring these horses along correctly....not rush them and use the building blocks to do it right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

STF -

Easy to say. Difficult to do... unless you have a ton of cash. And no one I've met this year has a ton. At least none that have horses (LOL)

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

siegi b.

Dec. 9, 2003, 07:58 AM

Heather - while you make some good points, I don't agree with some of your post, specifically the statement that breeders should be knowledgable enough to be able to pick a good trainer for young horses (or else they're not smart enough to breed horses?). I've been in this racket for a long, long time and have learned things the hard way - by experience - and let me tell you there are a few "trainers" that can ride well and could do a good job starting a youngster IF ONLY they would actually spend time with the horse and not just charge for training. I have also found it difficult to assess after just a meeting or two with prospective trainers things like their general attitude towards young horses, something I find very important. So they have good riding skills but manage to ruin the prospect because of inconsistent/hard handling, etc. on the ground. It is very difficult to assess all these things unless you have known the person for some time.

Hollihorse tells us that she has several stalls open but can't find
customers to fill them. And in the same breath she generalizes about breeders not wanting to sell their young prospects because they want to try them first. That is not what I would call good marketing..... in addition to being plain wrong in most cases. And having had a champion at Dressage at Devon this year (who was it BTW?) doesn't mean that much to me. I had the Grand Champion four years ago (a 2-year old filly by the name of Petra) and she was pulled out of my field by Willy Arts to go to Devon. No prior training whatsoever. I also have the No. 2 and 3 Dutch colts in the country in my barn right now - no prior training, just GOOD breeding!

I consider myself lucky in that I have found my gem of a trainer and I intend to hang on to her until I get out of breeding. She had ALL the credentials AND to this days LOVES horses. She has also been a great help in placing my youngsters in the best possible places which, after having been so well started by her, has not been too difficult. Ours is a friendship based on mutual respect for what we have accomplished and continue to achieve.

In order for the regional training centers for young horses to succeed, there needs to be an understanding that not every trainer can be the perfect choice for every breeder, and sometimes people need to settle for second best (in their opinion) in the interest of a financially reasonable/feasible training program. And that is also the reason why, in my opinion, this isn't going to happen.

Sporthorse South

Dec. 9, 2003, 08:15 AM

Heck, I just lost half a post - trying again!

Heather, your post was not disjointed at all. You made a lot of really excellent points, as did many others on this thread and others. North American breeders, buyers, and trainers need to wake up. Most breeders have their horses priced too high, most buyers don't know what they are looking at, and most trainers are unrealistic about their own abilities and their fee/commission structures. As long as breeders price fairly mediocre weanlings at $10K and up, and buyers expect world class quality at bargain prices, and trainers charge $1500/mo and up (or expect to get a sales commission equal to or better than the sale price of the horse), we are going to have problems getting our young horses out into the world.

I like the idea of regional training centers, but who is going to set them up, fund them, manage them? The amount of effort and money it would take to get something like this off the ground would be staggering. There would have to be financial and marketing support for this at the top levels of the sport - our new NGB, USDF, the breed registries, etc., would all have to climb on board and promote this thing, which would be tough enough given all the politics, personalities, etc., involved, but the big sticking point would most likely be money. It would take a lot of $$$ to buy/build/lease appropriate facilities around the country, staff them with the right people, and vigorously promote them, year after year, with a monumental ad campaign. The sporthorse public would have to be made aware through constant advertising and other publicity efforts that there are places that specialize in young horses, to the mutual benefit of breeders and buyers. It might just be a pipedream to think that a place like this could exist, but heck, this is the season for dreams, right?

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 9, 2003, 09:32 AM

My goodness, everyone is making such good observations.

I have read them all ... and sporthorse south, as a buyer, yeah, you're right, I don't have a clue what I'm looking at. Thank goodness my purchases have not depended upon my opinion.

I've retyped this three times now ... what ARE we saying? What IS the problem? There obviously are trainers bringing young horses along. Is the complaint that there are not enough of them (so that the corresponding price is low?) or is it because the TOP riders are not bringing along young horses?

I don't think, at least in the h/j world the buyers care where the heck the horse came from as long as the performance is where they want it and the price is right. Is this just naive?

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 9, 2003, 09:36 AM

Oh, and by the way, just in case any of you were on the edge of your seats waiting,

No, GM hasn't called.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Heather

Dec. 9, 2003, 10:28 AM

siegi--I appreciate your thoughts, and understand what you are saying, but honestly, perhaps I';m either naive or just very lucky, but I Haven't found it rocket science to find someone who excells at and enjoys making up, youngsters.

Now that may be because I'm an eventer, and I think the number of trainers who are used to and expect to ride youngsters is higher in this discipline than in the others. (perhaps a good philosophical question to explore may be why that is??)

If I am looking for someone with a show record, I examine the people I've seen ride who ride similarly to myself. I also look at what horses they are competing at those levels. My trainer rode at the four star level on a horse of unknown breeding whom she aquired as a four year old. That tells me this is someone who can do the whole deal, from bottom to top. I looked in to someone else, and found they had nevercompeted a horse at that level that hadn't been purchased competing at AT LEAST the intermediate level. That tells me this is a person who lacks the skill and interest to ride babies. I look at the horses in their barn--in my trainer's barn, fully half of the horses she has in training are either"problem" horses or babies. The only "made" horses she has, she either made herself, or are sale horses.

If I am not looking for someone with a show record, I go and watch them ride several horses. I again look at the number and type of horses in their barn. I ask them about their philosophies of training, and expereince with youngsters. I ask them what the first steps are for a horse in their program. I know a graduate of Haras, for instance, has started double digit young horses every year, many of them stallions.

Edited to add: You know, the truth is, in my sport at least, you can tell who the young horse folks are and who aren't, There are some big names you can see riding young horses at Novice or Training everyweekend they aren't campaigning their big guys, and there are some big names you never see competing below prelim. Is this not the case inother disciplines?

I do think I can tell who is going to do it right (read: My way, because that's really what this is about, if we are honest). But as I said, I'd be happy to cop to extreme lucke or raging naivete.

I'm going to throw out another idea. What do breeders think of the notion of using a NH or Western guy to get broke horses, and then finishing them on their own? I like riding youngsters still, and think I put a good foundation on them, but I don't have it in me anymore to break them. I want something that's totally broke, just doesn't know anything. I think if I were seriously going to breed, start and sell lots of babies, I would consider going that route--having a good cowboy put 90 days on them, and then doing the rest of it myself.

sketcher

Dec. 9, 2003, 10:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

Let me throw this out for consideration: what would you folks think of a internet site where trainers and breeders could "meet" with the specific idea of doing "deals" like this on individual horses?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is a great idea. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe a site where trainers can put a resume or description of what they have done and what they are interested in and where breeders can post info about their young horses with pictures.

ltw

Dec. 9, 2003, 03:15 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Heather:

So we need customers--breeders and owners of young horses-- to STOP looking at people's resumes in terms of what level have you ridden or how much showing have you done. Those same owners and breeders need to be EDUCATED (uh oh, there's the flamable word) to know good riding and good young horses development when they see it. If you aren't a rider anymore, that's fine, but I would humbly suggest if you aren't knowledgable enough about the type of riding you are breeding for to be able to pick out the talented young horse riders, then you probably aren't knowledgable enough to breed the proper horses.

Commercial breeders ARE at a disadvantage. But, I also think that the disconnect between breeders and riders isn't all from the rider side--breeders can be guilty of it as well.

As far as why Americans aren't interested in American bred horses--I think the reasons are myriad, but most of them boil down to one thing--education. Education on the part of American End Quote>

Heather, you make some excellent points and I agree wholeheartedly with alot of what you have said.
When a person is searching for someone to start their young horse they need to do their homework, not just look for the BNT that does well at a horse show.

But secondy, breeders that no longer ride need to stop spending all of their time at breed shows and go watch some Performance shows at all levels to keep in touch with the requirements of the levels of dressage or jumping and to see what types of horses can compete today. It really is helpful if breeding European warmbloods if a breeder can spend some time in Europe at different events. It really helps to educate yourself to know what your breeding goals should be, and give you a new perspective.

LEP Enterprises, LLC

Dec. 9, 2003, 04:10 PM

Aren't the big breeding and training operations in europe subsidized by the government?

If true, that is an unbelieavably huge advantage over the US breeders and owners.

How can we compete when we've got the feeding AND training to pay for...and they're getting it all from the taxpayers.

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

eurofoal

Dec. 9, 2003, 04:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
My goodness, everyone is making such good observations.

I have read them all ... and sporthorse south, as a buyer, yeah, you're right, I don't have a clue what I'm looking at. Thank goodness my purchases have not depended upon my opinion.

I've retyped this three times now ... what ARE we saying? What IS the problem? There obviously are trainers bringing young horses along. Is the complaint that there are not enough of them (so that the corresponding price is low?) or is it because the TOP riders are not bringing along young horses?

I don't think, at least in the h/j world the buyers care where the heck the horse came from as long as the performance is where they want it and the price is right. Is this just naive?

__.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, does anybody care where the horse comes from if it's nice, performing at the level that they want and the price is right? If it meets all these requirements--IT WILL BE PURCHASED!!!

I think that it's very naive to think that any sizable percentage of horses will become 6 figure horses. I think that looking to training as a guarantee of that type of price tag, (as mentioned early on in this thread, in the discussions of 50/50 splits with trainers) is setting oneself up for disappointment. A quick look at ANY cross section of want ads, auction results or sale barns in Europe or the US will tell you that 100K plus horses are the exception, just like 15K weanlings are the exception. Now, 10-25K horses that go around and do their job-- those are the bread and butter horses. With an excellent herd, you can breed better than average, with the occasional stellar individual, and those above average horses will maybe raise your expected sales price range to 15-30K, or 25-40K, all other factors being equal.

You will need to factor in your costs-- if you need a trainer, or stall cleaners, or transporters or agents, factor that in to your expected expenses, just like any other business would. If you think only big name trainers can properly school your youngsters, then better figure that in, too. Inventory YOUR resources, costs, location, etc.

If you can't make money selling the majority of your horses WITHIN the price range that the majority of buyers are looking for, then be prepared to justify why your horses are so much better, and expect your buyers to want to see that proof.

I agree with Laura, if you are serious about horses as a BUSINESS, then get out there and see what's out there and what they're actually selling for.

Jill
www.eurofoal.com (http://www.eurofoal.com)
European bloodlines made in America

square halt

Dec. 9, 2003, 05:49 PM

I completely agree with Laura about keeping up with what the riders and horses are doing. This sport continually evolves, and once you are not riding, it is way too easy to become "barn blind". There are too many people ready to tell you that they have the ONLY way to breed (sort of like a tired commercial). You have to be knowledgeable enough to know smoke when you "hear" it, and have a concept of what is truly going on in the show ring, and in the marketplace. Then be ready and/or willing to meet that need if you care to keep pace.

retreadeventer

Dec. 10, 2003, 04:22 AM

To Seigi - the winner I handled was Ivana, she went best of breed, you can look it up. How fortunate for you that could pull a colt out of the pasture and win; I prefer my horses to be prepared, and when a client asks me to prepare a horse, I do so carefully and properly, as best I can. I personally, could never take a paying horse and dump them in a pasture as preparation for something as prestigious and life-long as Devon.
And may I say that as a young horse trainer, starting horses properly is ALL of what they become. Their first moments under saddle mean everything to their cooperation the rest of their life. The natural methods, the cowboy stuff with round pens and ropes do much to destroy movement and minds of young sport horses, because we are expecting so much more and different work of our horses when they mature.
I don't charge that much more than a cheap cowboy but I can guarantee that I will try my best to have your horse patiently and correctly started so that you may take it anywhere you want to go -- either to sell or to ride -- and in any discipline, eventing, jumping, dressage.
Perhaps not everyone wants to keep what they breed, but among the small breeders in my region, (DE/MD/PA) I think that's a fair statement. Those are the owners I am going to get; the large commercial breeders start their own, don't they?

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 10, 2003, 06:57 AM

I don't believe Seigi's filly was intended to go to Devon that year, but impressed Willy Arts so much when he arrived it was decided to take her.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Maren

Dec. 10, 2003, 08:26 AM

@LEPEnterprises

no, the government is not involved in the training of youngsters. Some states have their own, government substitued state stud farms, but many wb registries don't have any of this and those that operate Nationwide like Trakehners, do not get one cent.

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

LLDM

Dec. 10, 2003, 07:21 PM

I think OM and Sketcher have the right idea. It needs to start with a website! Now, who's website can we hijack.... Breed registries? Dicipline sites (USAEq, USDF, USET)? Hmmmm.

SCFarm

"If you want a soft horse, be soft. If you want a focused horse be focused. If you want..."

LLDM

Dec. 10, 2003, 07:28 PM

Hey Erin! You out there? Would the COTH sponser this? Would it be hard to do? Would it be expensive? Us poor starving breeders and trainers could pay a little http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

You guys have such a professional, wonderful, well run site!! Please share (more), please!!

And I promise, no baby eating silliness. (Honest) I'll even forget how to spell Oldinbarg http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif!

SCFarm

"If you want a soft horse, be soft. If you want a focused horse be focused. If you want..."

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 11, 2003, 04:05 AM

I am going to start my own website anyway and have already started the design work.

I'll be glad to do it.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

LEP Enterprises, LLC

Dec. 11, 2003, 10:56 AM

If the government is subsidizing the stud farms, that right there is a huge advantage. I'm already $2400 into my 2004 foal, and that is before any of the costs of the care of the broodmare are factored in.

***
Edit, shoot, I'm already $3400 into the cost of my 2004 foal. I forgot the two trips to the vet and the week long stay to get her pregnant. I was only counting the stud fee, collection fee (X2) and shipping (X2).

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 11, 2003, 11:06 AM

So, LEP. What do you think?

Think this partnership thingie could work?

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 12, 2003, 11:10 AM

A Regional Training Center with a focus on Working Students under the supervision of a Bereiter or other professional - similar to the 100 day test for stallions would work nicely. The professionals could change (possibly short term - 3 months) rotating expertise. Also a horse's focus or specialty could be aimed at when the Center is specializing in that discipline. Salary for the professional/facility could be paid by % of sale of the horses. Working students would receive tons of experience under a professional of their chosen discipline without huge expenses. Horses would be evaluated by the professional to make sure the "raw material" is what would have a good likelihood of selling, and agree on a minimum acceptable price. Breeder agrees to pay basic fee of $100.- $200. per month to cover grain/hay, etc + farrier and vet bills. Professional/facility would have the right to extend beyond 3 month period to achieve a sale, or owner could decide to remove horse after 3 months no sale for a pre-agree upon training fee.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

LEP Enterprises, LLC

Dec. 12, 2003, 01:31 PM

I think it could work.

I think it would need a huge influx of capital to start. I like the idea of there being an auction of the young horses that are trained there, that can give the owners a real incentive to send their quality youngstock.

I think they would need to have certain standards as to what types of horses they would accept (i.e. registered, bred for sport prospects, and not just the farmers cart horse's accident).

If there was a facility that offered reasonable boarding rates, that had a qualified staff of professionals and motivated students, I would very seriously consider sending my young horse there to be started. Especially a place that was supported by ASHA or the breed industries, and scheduled yearly auctions of the trained prospects. Maybe twice yearly actually, spring and fall.

Could be really spectactular! Now someone get Denny in here to comment on this with us http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 12, 2003, 02:26 PM

I think that the breeder would need to pay more than $100-200 per month. At the start the horses should also have a cursory vet exam at the very least - with an option of a full series of X-rays. It can be financially devastating to have a fabulous horse that one invests a good amount of training in - just to find out that the Navicular films have more changes than some vets would like to see (another can of worms).

LLDM

Dec. 15, 2003, 09:36 AM

I ran through some preliminary numbers and Laurie is right. It would take more than that. Still, it might work.

SCFarm

"If you want a soft horse, be soft. If you want a focused horse be focused. If you want..."

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 15, 2003, 09:58 AM

I was using the figure of $100 - $200. as in the Chronicle Commentary. I do think that would work if the funding for start-up came from grants for the Students - breeders providing the tools (horses). It is about providing a place that trainers can come to see a nice group of sales prospects in training. If 20 - 25 four year olds are in training and sell (during the 90 day training period) for $20,000 - $30,000., even if only 15 - 20 sell at 25% commission, that would bring in $30,000. - $40,000. per month to run the facility and pay the professional.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 15, 2003, 10:06 AM

Darlyn,

Yeah, you're right. And I'm NOT being a nay-sayer. That's the deal once it get running ... but getting the momentum together to get the thing running is going to be a royal PITA.

It's not just finding the place, it's finding the people. Flying to Germany, interviewing Bereiters, setting up a corporate structure, making decisions, doing the marketing, advertising for this place. You're not going to just open the doors and people are going to hand over their carefully bred youngsters.

Plus, brining up the 100 stallion test? Hey, they just raised the price to $10,000 per horse. If breeders had that kind of cash lying around, there would be NO MARKET GAP.

Everyone is stuck between a rock and hardplace. You're damned if you do, and damned if you dont.

*sigh* I don't know what the answer is.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 15, 2003, 10:50 AM

The 100 day test has to pay for itself without sales commission. Actually $100 - $200 per horse, per month would more than pay for grain/hay/sawdust and basic labor for stall cleaning.

Start-up needs are where we really need the USEF/Breed Societies to help. If the USEF (UsaEq?) can help with where to get Educational Grants to begin a student training center, and the Breed Societies can help with European contacts for Professional(s) it can work. It would also be good to have a Hunter/Jumper trainer experienced in young horse starting, working with the facility, as we lose many Hunter sales to Europe.

At November Hill Farm, Gerd Zuther basically ran what we need, but it was privately owned for profit. He had youngsters they bred in training for sale, had working students learning under him, ran several very sucessful auctions, and the 100 day test. Many of his students have gone on to successful careers in the sporthorse world. Perhaps he can offer advice.

I know this a huge project, and I have super prospects standing around eating in my barn as well, but with recent articles in the COTH aimed at solving our problems as breeders and sellers, the time seems to be ripe. Obviously on this forum, we have the "ears" of the "powers that be". They are listening, and looking for suggestions at how they can help us. There is a HUGE amount of knowledge on this board, and if we can solve some of the "problems", and come off with ideas that can actually work, we might just find out that people in places that can actually help implement this are taking notes.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 15, 2003, 11:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:

It would also be good to have a Hunter/Jumper trainer experienced in young horse starting, working with the facility, as we lose many Hunter sales to Europe.

Oh yes. Yes, yes yes. I've got the perfect guy for the job, but I don't think he'd do it. Too bad.

At November Hill Farm, Gerd Zuther basically ran what we need, but it was privately owned for profit. He had youngsters they bred in training for sale, had working students learning under him, ran several very sucessful auctions, and the 100 day test. Many of his students have gone on to successful careers in the sporthorse world. Perhaps he can offer advice.

Hey, when do we go buy him lunch?

... COTH aimed at solving our problems as breeders and sellers, the time seems to be ripe.

Couldn't agree more. I really couldn't.

Obviously on this forum, we have the "ears" of the "powers that be".
Do we? Do we really? Hmmmm not quite sure about THAT, but I'll take your word for it.

They are listening, and looking for suggestions at how they can help us. There is a HUGE amount of knowledge on this board, and if we can solve some of the "problems", and come off with ideas that can actually work, we might just find out that people in places that can actually help implement this are taking notes.

Oh please. Please please please. This idea is a good one for everyone.

Well, let me throw this out there:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>For those of you reading this thread ... c'mon. Who would be willing to volunteer for some help putting this idea on paper and getting it moving? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 15, 2003, 11:42 AM

Obviously on this forum, we have the "ears" of the "powers that be".

Do we? Do we really? Hmmmm not quite sure about THAT, but I'll take your word for it.

We have had good feedback about ideas on this forum from the USAEq "Powers that be", as well as mentions in several COTH articles. They are out there trying to help. They are listening!

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

LLDM

Dec. 15, 2003, 03:24 PM

Well, this is one of the reasons I was hoping that COTH would sponser the website idea. This seems to be THE place where the ears are! People (breeders, trainers, buyers) need to buy into the idea first. We need to build to critical mass to get the right people and support to make it fly.

This is also a neutral site between the breed registries. I really think the registries would have to get behind it for it to have enough credibility. And you're right Fairview, they have the German contacts. And they are starting to appreciate the hunter market (or at least the hunter market money http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

Hang in there with us OM, keep talking. If these threads hang around long enough (there's a lot of folks reading them anyway) the more general buzz will be created.

For those of you lurking out there - please chime in!

If you are a trainer, there are many advantages for you too! The website, sure, but also wouldn't it be nice to get horses to bring along FROM this type of program? They would have CONSISTENT BASICS to work with! If you speak up your needs won't be overlooked.

The concept is to grow all our talented youngsters and develope a system in this country that works!

SCFarm

"If you want a soft horse, be soft. If you want a focused horse be focused. If you want..."

PaintBy#s

Dec. 16, 2003, 01:43 PM

Regional training centers sounds like a good Idea, but It also sounds like something that is going to need time/hard work/ and money and something that isn't going to happen over night.

I think the first start and a great Idea is the website.
Possibly different sites for different things? One for trainers/riders willing to train, where they are/what discipline; competition riders/trainers for upper levels; site for the "backing and starting the youngsters"...

I am also a firm believer in that we need to start supporting our young talented riders. More colleges with good Equestrian programs, with some kind of national certification, perhaps like that in England with the BHSAI and BHSI so there is a national standard of some kind.

And perhaps some kind of program similar to the private working student arrangements now with top trainers that would mentor some of our promising and talented young riders.

I think that the equestrian world is full of amazingly talented young riders. We lose some to boys, some to different, "better hobbies"/careers...some that want to escape the politics..

But In my experience...personally and friends/posters etc. It's the finances that get the young students.
If the student doesn't come from a horse background(family)..then their families aren't as willing to spend the money to send the kid to an equestrian school/program.

Depending on the person, and their status..it could take ages for them to save up money to go to one of these schools/programs......Eventually they get discouraged and move onto something else.

I also think distance is a problem also.

Just my .02....But worth the thought?

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

mbp

Dec. 16, 2003, 02:17 PM

Lots of good ideas, but I will say that I think you would find over time that the majority of the youngsters with 3 mos start are NOT going to sell for 25,000-30,000. I really believe, and I may have a skewed view, but I think 10-15,000 will be much more the average sales price and the first couple of years you will have many fewer sales at 90 than you will have after a few years.

I am not trying to be a neighsayer - just realistic. I know of a nice young mare who has a good show record, including a regional ammy championship, who just sold with great xrays for under 20,000. I think you have to be realistic and not expect all the horses to sell at top $. FWIW

PaintBy#s

Dec. 16, 2003, 02:30 PM

Totally agreed MBP

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 16, 2003, 02:57 PM

To be quite honest with you, raising a horse until the age of 4 is going to in most cases cost the breeder more than 10,000. The purpose of the training center would be to get those better prices, not have to settle for losing money. What does it cost to purchase and import a nice 4 year old?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

LLDM

Dec. 16, 2003, 03:28 PM

mbp - been a while since I read this whole thread but - I think we were thinking more like 15K to 20K for a well bred, professionally started youngster and 25K - 35K for a 4 to 5 yo that is ready for a ami to move up from his schoolmaster and has a bit of a nice show record.

Trust me, we breeders know the just backed 3yo is not ready for our target market. We are trying to figure out how to get them beyond that point. And once we put all that training money and time into them, how to get them sold and not lose our shirts, give up breeding and go cry in our beer, wine, or whatever else we can steal from the disciplines' trailers while they're out showing.

Also, we tend to live in a more expensive, higher cost of living market than you. So please don't export your more reasonably priced horses here. And good luck getting our buyers out to look at yours http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I suppose you could send them to our cool new auctions and training systems (coming soon) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Pls see "New and Different Take" thread for more endless details.

SCFarm

"If you want a soft horse, be soft. If you want a focused horse be focused. If you want..."

mbp

Dec. 16, 2003, 03:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It would take a lot of $$$ to buy/build/lease appropriate facilities around the country, staff them with the right people, and vigorously promote them, year after year, with a monumental ad campaign<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This point, raised by Sporthorse South, is one that worries me some about the future, not just for starting young horses but for so many other horse related issues. We are not generating the physical infrastructure the sport needs to grow. Big shows at big show grounds are still there. But the moderate show grounds/training facility for the schooling shows - we don't have what we should to build the sport. Go to a county that doesn't have soccer fields. Kind of hard - they all have public access soccer fields these days. Now go to a county that doesn't have a decent h/j dressage show facility for schooling shows. That is not so hard to find - most counties don't have easily rentable show grounds that work for h/j and dressage shows. We don't seem to have much push to generate infrastructure either and that bothers me more so than even the availability of young horse trainers. BUt that is not so much to the point I guess.

I would be hesitant to work with university equestrian grads in general, but I do wonder if there could be something done through Pony Club, where say a minimum B level rider does working student/apprentice for a certification in starting young horses?

A website is a good first step. I still think having the breeders set aside their registry affiliations and align themselves into regional breeders groups would help as it would promote more density - which is going to be helpful. I just don't see you being able, even with some outside support, to do much for less than 400/mo. Commission fees are just too iffy. I think too you would need something like the volunteer efforts of a regional breeders group to "chick sit" this type of venture. Twenty breeders willing to risk 1500-200 each could possibly put together a 3mos facility lease and overhead costs. Over time, costs might drop, but you need a group commitment. We can recite over and over that it should come from the NGB - but it won't. It needs regional breeder groups to coordinate and commit to pull it off.

I still think we need something like USDF for the breeders, with regional groups acting like GMOs. Lets say the regional groups had a relatively highish annual fee(maybe 150 or so) but for that, you got a discounted rate at any training center (say the 400/mos instead of 750/mos for non-beeder group) with your young stock, and a few regional shows for started 3-4yos with some prize money - show open to all but only members eligible for the $$, the ability to enter your stock (even if they were started elsewhere) in sales/open house days at the regional centers (that would be held maybe 3-4 times a year) and a magzine and/or some clinics.

Ok - this would be "enough" stuff that breeders who are not sending their horses to the training centers might still pay up and join. Those $$ would help with baseline funding. Easier, with this set up, to get the registries or NGB to maybe kick in some prizes/$ for the young horse shows than to take on the commitment for operating/paying for a training center. Sales days - open house tryout could get to be some good bonding sessions between local buyers and riders and the breeders. Some shows with some $$ become an incentive for breeders and if the horse is purchased from a paid up breeder - then the new owner steps into those shoes. So more incentive to buy the regionally bred horse who can win some $ at the regional shows that are targeted for young horses too (so maybe they have dressage materiale and hunter under saddle and 2 foot courses and training-first level dressage - all young horse stuff - not so much discipline shows as young horse shows).

The shows are held at the training centers, so yes, -those horses may have some advantage (so send you horse there for training http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) and if they attract other regional breeder's horses too -not just the ones at the training centers - they may generate some additional $$ for funding of the overall effort.

That kind of scenario. But I think you need regional groups who don't really care if someone has IRDs or AngloArabs or Hannoverians or Trakehners, etc. - they just care that they are regionally based, developing sporthorses, and are willing to put their money in for startup. THe training, buyers preferences, shows, etc. will sort out the horses. WHo cares if the other 18 horses at the training center are all AWR? Well - you might care if they all sell before and/or at a better price LOL But really - it has to be financially prudent, geographically based, and rider/buyer friendly.

Don't you just know that if there was a training center with a few hours that had young horses all the time and had young horse only shows every 2 mos or so, some weekend you are gonna go watch. Buy a hot dog. Tell a friend about a horse you saw there. A few months later - several of you go and watch. Maybe one takes a young horse they have. It does well - but it was imported and doesn't qualify for the prize $$. So you start to think hmmmmm. Finally a friend buys a 3 yo horse at one of the open house days. ONe they saw at a show the month before. They show them the next year at some of the local and convenient young horse only shows at the training center and actually win some $$. And you see more young horses there when you go to watch them. So eventually you buy one . . . .

But breeders can't think they will get there without working together (across registry lines) and without getting low/no return for a couple of years. And the whole thing gets much easier when you already have some regional gmo type breeders groups to be the nexus, with some centralized organization on a national level.

eurofoal

Dec. 17, 2003, 08:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mbp:

I would be hesitant to work with university equestrian grads in general, but I do wonder if there could be something done through Pony Club, where say a minimum B level rider does working student/apprentice for a certification in starting young horses?

A website is a good first step. I still think having the breeders set aside their registry affiliations and align themselves into regional breeders groups would help as it would promote more density - which is going to be helpful. I just don't see you being able, even with some outside support, to do much for less than 400/mo. Commission fees are just too iffy. I think too you would need something like the volunteer efforts of a regional breeders group to "chick sit" this type of venture. Twenty breeders willing to risk 1500-200 each could possibly put together a 3mos facility lease and overhead costs. Over time, costs might drop, but you need a group commitment. We can recite over and over that it should come from the NGB - but it won't. It needs regional breeder groups to coordinate and commit to pull it off. <edit>

... the ability to enter your stock (even if they were started elsewhere) in sales/open house days at the regional centers (that would be held maybe 3-4 times a year) and a magzine and/or some clinics.

Ok - this would be "enough" stuff that breeders who are not sending their horses to the training centers might still pay up and join. Those $$ would help with baseline funding. Easier, with this set up, to get the registries or NGB to maybe kick in some prizes/$ for the young horse shows than to take on the commitment for operating/paying for a training center. Sales days - open house tryout could get to be some good bonding sessions between local buyers and riders and the breeders. Some shows with some $$ become an incentive for breeders and if the horse is purchased from a paid up breeder - then the new owner steps into those shoes. So more incentive to buy the regionally bred horse who can win some $ at the regional shows that are targeted for young horses too (so maybe they have dressage materiale and hunter under saddle and 2 foot courses and training-first level dressage - all young horse stuff - not so much discipline shows as young horse shows).

The shows are held at the training centers, so yes, -those horses may have some advantage (so send you horse there for training http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) and if they attract other regional breeder's horses too -not just the ones at the training centers - they may generate some additional $$ for funding of the overall effort.

That kind of scenario. But I think you need regional groups who don't really care if someone has IRDs or AngloArabs or Hannoverians or Trakehners, etc. - they just care that they are regionally based, developing sporthorses, and are willing to put their money in for startup. THe training, buyers preferences, shows, etc. will sort out the horses. WHo cares if the other 18 horses at the training center are all AWR? Well - you might care if they all sell before and/or at a better price LOL But really - it has to be financially prudent, geographically based, and rider/buyer friendly.

Don't you just know that if there was a training center with a few hours that had young horses all the time and had young horse only shows every 2 mos or so, some weekend you are gonna go watch. Buy a hot dog. Tell a friend about a horse you saw there. A few months later - several of you go and watch. Maybe one takes a young horse they have. It does well - but it was imported and doesn't qualify for the prize $$. So you start to think hmmmmm. Finally a friend buys a 3 yo horse at one of the open house days. ONe they saw at a show the month before. They show them the next year at some of the local and convenient young horse only shows at the training center and actually win some $$. And you see more young horses there when you go to watch them. So eventually you buy one . . . .

But breeders can't think they will get there without working together (across registry lines) and without getting low/no return for a couple of years. And the whole thing gets much easier when you already have some regional gmo type breeders groups to be the nexus, with some centralized organization on a national level.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MBP-- these are my thoughts exactly!! I love the Pony Club idea!

Perhaps one of the perqs of being involved with the trainers would be sort of mentoring program for up and coming young riders/trainers. I also thought that maybe the training centers could be shorter term-- like 30 or 60 days, and possibly even rotate locations, sort of like the inspections do. A facility can "host" a young horse/young rider training session consisting of 20 or 30 young horses (housed in show stabling, if need be)and 6-10 young riders, supervised by an expert. IT would be a cross between an intensive clinic, the "30 day" type stallion testing or a month of training, with showcase days for sales and education (auditing, too). A name trainer at a facility could "host" the training/sales sessions, and then move on for the rest of the year. That would allow me some choice in choosing my facility, and increase the likelihood of having one close to home.

We need to bond together regionally, as breeders. We need to give the customer what they want (going young horses at a reasonable price). I do, however, think that as breeders, we should have some clearer ideas of the roles of our regsitries. After all, they, of all groups, have the most vested interest in the breeders!

I do not think that it is unreasonable to expect our registries to have a more active role in supporting us, particularly since many breeders are stuggling once the foals are weaned. Our success is their success. I think that listing breeders with services to offer (horses for sale) free of charge on web sites or in directories should be part of our registration fees. It costs nearly nothing to type up a web page with links to farms that a visitor to the AHS or NA_WPN could click on to. If divided by state, then potential buyers could quickly find members that are in close proximity.

I think that [our registries] providing supervisory or guest instuctors or clinicians is also reasonable-- at a low or discounted or subsidised price. THey sort of do this already for conformation seminars and things like that. The registries or NGB's would have to participate to give credibility to the endeavor.

WE can help bring about change by simply asking for changes (writing letters), and offering our volunteer services to the registries. Our registries are a business, and, as such, certainly have an interest in keeping the customers happy. I think that most of our registries are fairly short-handed, and rely upon volunteer help for many things. This is wonderful... it allows a tremendous amount of input on the membership level.

Jill
www.eurofoal.com (http://www.eurofoal.com)
European bloodlines made in America

Sonesta

Dec. 17, 2003, 09:58 AM

Wow! I just came back to see what input you guys had for my idea of regional training centers and I am stunned at the good ideas (and that you guys did not think I was crazy for suggesting it!). I hope that we can actually pull something like this off, for I really do believe that is the way we will become competitive with Europe in our breeding.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses. 
"Find something you love & call it work."

threewindsfarm

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:14 AM

I am a breeder of warmblood horses and have some top quality offspring ( Olympic Quality), even ones that breeders fly in from Europe to see.We send all our offspring out at 3 years for training and showing.I must agree with Oakleigh'scomments about finding good trainers for our young stock,I have usedthree trainers in the past year alone in two different states and have chose them on recommendations from other breeders and clients and have been cheated,fees kept from shows, vaccinations done haphazardly by trainer not by vet, no accurate record or proof they were ever given so they had to be done all over again,young horse starved by over 100 lbs with no muscles not even the ones he left my farm with from just being turned out a couple hours aday ( I have before and after videos),also young horse attacked in stall and need surgery on face by another horse, not being trained or turned out enough, shoeing done so bad and horse jumped at miniprix with shoes barely hanging on and and long seedy toes that were the worse the new blacksmith had ever seen. These are well know trainers that do very bad things and never get reprimanded other than having your horse removed from their care. Trainers should have to be licensed and regulated like driver ed instructors or school teachers and there should be a regulatory body you can go to with your complaints.One that other people could check before their horses get abused also.

Sporthorse South

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:19 AM

Just came in to warm up (it's really COLD and blustery out there today!), so here are a few quick, rambling thoughts:

First of all, many of the registries do have a sales page on their websites, although some seem to be better utilized than others. Other than that, and moral support, I'm not sure how much help they can provide. Most of them run on very tight budgets, and I do not think it is reasonable to expect financial help from them in setting up or running training centers. Even ISR has to depend on well-heeled benefactors such as Hilltop Farm and Stargate Sporthorses to fund things like the N.A. Breeders' Futurity, so trying to get the various registries to find extra $$$$ to put towards several regional training centers is going to be very tough.

The registries can help in other ways, however, such as helping to sponsor clinics, etc. GOV, for instance, has for several years now been bringing over people from the Oldenburg auction center to teach clinics on training young horses - these usually feature Thomas Rhinow (the Oldenburg Auction Manager and former auction rider), and the current primary dressage rider/trainer for the auction horses, Johannes Westendarp (a multi-Bundeschampionat winner who is generally regarded as one of Germany's best trainers of young horses).

Going back to the idea of regional training centers - I can think of several places right off the top of my head that might be suitable venues - Paxton Farm, Carl Bouckart's Beaulieu Farms in Chatsworth, GA, or Bouckart's new place in Rome, GA, where the new **** 3-Day Event will be held, or the old Foxhall Cup place in Douglasville, GA) - I'm sure there are lots of places like these around the country, but these are the ones I am most familiar with. Most of these places are used only once or twice a year for a major competition, and then basically sit "under-utilized" the rest of the year. I wouldn't think it would take much effort to get them set up to take on 20-30 young horses for 60 or 90 day training sessions - money, yes, for hiring staff, etc., but most of them already have a lot of the structural facilities in place - stabling, arenas, etc., so at least that part of the equation could easily be taken care of.

So, even assuming we can get a place like Beaulieu Farms interested in a program like this, we still have to address the issues of MONEY and ADMINSTRATION. The set-up funds are going to have to come from somewhere (anyone got a few million dollars just laying around that they would like to - umm - "donate" to a good cause)? And, the training director and staff are going to have to be top-notch, with the kind of solid credentials that will entice breeders and young horse owners to send stock to them, and ideally without political or financial ties to any particular registry or association so as to avoid any appearances of a conflict of interest.

So there's some more food for thought. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mbp

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:54 PM

Actually, I think all the FNASHR breeders benefit from the NA Breeders Futurity - not just ISR. So the actions of Hilltop, Stargate, etc. in supporting this are to benefit a broad breeders base that would include AHS, AHHA, SWANA, RPSI, etc. in additon to ISR/OldNA. That is the kind of thing we need - stallion owners and groups doing things for broadly based breeders groups. Personally - I wish all the sporthorse registries were under the FNASHR umbrella - but I know there are issues and politics involved.

Anyway, I don't think you will be able to handle the money and adminstration with the organizations that we have available, or by addressing this as a series of 60-90 day training centers. What I think (not that anyone asked <g&gthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

1. You need a national umbrella. Maybe FNASHR setting up regional groups, or maybe USDF using it's breeding committee to assist in spinning off Breeders Group GMOs, or maybe the NGB doing something - but I don't see that one. I'd prefer to utilize USDF unless or until the FNASHR could be inclusive of all the registries - including GOV, AWR, etc.) because we need a national umbrella that unifies the breeders - not one that provides further divisions. The problem with USDF is the "D" - a lot of the breeders are not breeding for dressage, but rather hunter or jumper or eventers.

2. You need local groups under the national umbrella. Not local groups that are just for "good" registries - and only want European based registries, or are only for one particular breed. Imagine building an organization like USDF if the start had been to say - but we only want Competitive Riders who show FEI and above, so no other members. NADA. WOn't work well in the long haul. AFTER you get nice broad based regional groups that actually have member density to support activities, then let people set up their subgroups. But to start with - division = disaster.

3. The local groups need to have a gameplan of overall offerings - not just training center offerings. Those could include that: A. they would maybe host 2-3 private sales days (I think to start those will work better than auctions and be less costly) where they have a facility available, print a program, advertise the event, have some food and some entertainment, and give their member breeders an opportunity to showcase their horses to prospective buyers. A couple of different regions might go together on this and swap facilities - but both members groups could participate. B. They have a couple of clinics. C. They publish a newsletter and have a website - with listings of all horses for sale by members (including the OTTBs, the Freisans, the AQHAs, etc.- what the members have that are targeted to a sporthorse buying group). D. This may be more controversial, but I think they should maybe have young riding horse testing/gradings and mare performance tests - conducted under guidelines provided by the national umbrella. THe registries can opt in or opt out if they don't want those "open" testings to also qualify for whatever individual registry testings they would offer - but we have to start getting some baselines. Local buyers need to see what local mares can do under saddle. What local young horses can do. The testings would become both an information bank (nice to know that Stallion XYZ, whose offspring are spread over 4-5 registries, and would normally be lucky to have one mare performance tested, instead has 3-4 mares PT's and has 6-7 young riding horses, geldings included, graded, and they all get high marks - this would be nice info for breeders, for riders, for buyers, for improving stock, etc. and it is not going to happen very quickly with individual registry based testings - too spread out too dissimilar, not enough results. E. Work to establish young horse show opportunities and provide some form of incentives/prizes/monies/awards to breeders who are members of the regional groups. Open up the shows to any young horses - you need the numbers. The incentives, though, limit to members. THEN, add an F. Establish some training center availability. Several regional groups might work together on this and might alternate sites even. For example, SS mentioned Paxton. Lake St. Louis has been mentioned in the past. Maybe the sites alternate years to start and regional groups in both areas work together to support each site. In any event, try to have one or two young horse shows (see E) at the sites. The horses in training may be too green, but it would be good for them to be around a show, the show could help cover costs, and the show would bring breeders/riders to the training center. Schedule a sales day or maybe 2 with a 90 day interval between them. Have those be social days, maybe get some vets or trainers to offer some miniseminar/talks on things riders would be interested in to get them to come and have the emphasis be attendance and fun - not selling horses. Once the riders/buyers start coming and mingling with the breeders, and seeing some nice horses, sales eventually get generated. Maybe do some drawings for riders/buyers who come - maybe get tack shop to donate something? Maybe have it be related to filling out a correct quiz with bloodlines questions <w>.

4. NOW - with a gameplan of what you will offer, set a fee schedule for membership. Maybe 150 or 200 for base membership. There will be additional charges for things like the training center, maybe a per horse charge for including a horse in the sales days (which you limit to member owned horses), but the membership fee allows members - even those whose horses are not going to the training center - to have some benefits. They maybe have a 15.00/horse or similar tracking fee for putting their horses or horses they have bred and have details on, in the system and their horses, that their horses - that they either own or have bred and are now owned by others, become eligible for the training center - with preferred status and at a reduced rate from non- members. But also their horses - training center or not, are eligible for sales days, the young horse shows at reduced fee and with possibilities of prize $$, they get preferred status and perhaps reduced reates for clinics put on by the organization, AND - somehow we coordinat these benefits among the GMO type entities. So that a member in good standing with one regional group - can show their horses in a different region, maybe they can be second listed for other training centers if theirs if full - they could take an empty spot at another center and pay that center's "member" rate (bc they will vary due to local costs issues). So if I am a member, I can send a horse to my local training center at a reduced rate, or if it is full and I don't mind hauling, I could use another center at their member rates, my horses - in my hands or the buyers hands, can show in the young horse shows at a reduced rate, can win things, will get some local advertising, I can be in clinics at a reduced rate and as a preferred particpant, and I can participate in sales days that are just for members - and if I have an OTTB that is a hunter prospect, I can take that horse to the sales day too. My region has a website and I can list my horses and contact info - along with other regional breeders. And I now have a network of who other breeders are in my area. The organization has baseline dues to cover overhead, while then trying to have the specific programs like the training center pay their own way.

5. The national organization works to provide guidelines for the breeders groups to limit liability successfully, to work together, maybe gives some website consulting and linking, and coordinates horse info with USEF or USDF or whatever group is advisable to help track member's horses. The national organization works as a liason to make sure that there is less duplication of horse registration and dues and that breeders get recognition and provides possibly some regional young horse awards.

6. While you need some good dedicated staff, I don't know that you need nationally or internationally recognized individuals. We are talking about starting a horse - getting it to wt, wtc, maybe popping crossrails or doing free jumping - we are not talking about the real nuts and bolts "DRESSAGE" training.

But really, IMO, it starts with getting good regional groups that are already working together. Trying to start with the training centers and develop from there puts the cart before the horse I think (JMO). And, even without the training centers, the regional groups can start doing the other things. But, again, I am going to emphasize that you need to work together. Not worry about who you can ostracize or not include. The market with sort the horses. If you are breeding wonderful dressage horses and look down your nose at the flat moving horses the breeder up the street has - fine, don't worry - different people will be interested in the horses, prices sort, usage sorts -- it will get sorted out. Trying to pre-sort before you do anything else (e.g., let's have just a Ky Hannoverian breeders group) doesn't get you far enough fast enough. Again, IMO only.

Sporthorse South

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:51 PM

I didn't say that the NA Breeders' Futurity benefits only ISR - only that ISR had to depend on major contributions by some very wealthy ISR board members to come up with the cash necessary to make the Futurity happen. My point was that even if very large, big-budgeted organizations such as ISR do not have the cash reserves to fund these kinds of things themselves, then there is no chance the smaller registries would be able to do it.

As I see it, there are two options: either private farms/individuals are going to have to take the initiative and set up and run these training programs themselves, or some kind of umbrella group working with the blessing & support of the NGB, USDF, FNASHR, and the various individual registries will have to take it on (and when I say "support", I mean mostly moral support, because, once again, there just isn't much spare cash laying around any of these organizations). Either way, the big sticking point is going to be start-up capital, and it is probably going to take some major contributions by some seriously wealthy benefactors to make this thing take off. Anyone know those rich folks who just bought Poetin? Maybe they'd like to toss a few million dollars our way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LLDM

Dec. 17, 2003, 03:42 PM

Wow - okay, where to start. A couple thoughts:

We need standards, for trainers, eveluating horses, trainin horses & selling horses, we don't have any. Who has standards we could steal (uh, borrow)? BHS? Germany?

I like the idea of being inclusive, but, all I know is the pain of other breeders like me. I have no idea if non WB breeders have these problems. Or if they care.

Don't we need to start with a website? A place to bring people with similar issues. I know I don't "get off the farm" much. Let's hash it out on line. (I'm still hoping CoTH would be interested, them are a good central meeting ground & it's not far from their main focus.)

How many "B" Pony Clubbers are there these days (not enough for me). And even though they know how to ride, are they mature/knowledgable enough for starting horses?

Must finish barn.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

mbp

Dec. 17, 2003, 04:01 PM

B Pony Clubbers - I don't know how many or if they are mature enough in general. They were my off the cuff response though to using students under the overall direction of a training supervisor. I do know that, as a general statement, I would more typically trust a B pony clubber than I would the equine students from most of the university programs I have seen.

I think a website would be good, and I think standards are good. But I see a different "first" priority. TO me, you first need an entity to work through. The USDF mag had what was, to me, some fascinating stories on the development of USDF. WIthout it, I think dressage today would be in a much less advanced state - at both the top levels and the grassroots.

I think you need an organization whose mission, not just mission statement, is to really support sporthorse breeders at the grassroots level. And to do that, there needs to be a structure to work with and bootstrap from. I think if you have just a website - not with any real organizational support or parameters, it will either be not too worthwhile or will die out. Now that's just my opinion and could be very wrong. BUt I think the first thing is to have an organization that is really about the breeders. To be honest, the registries are not "about" our breeders on a grassroots basis. They are about promoting certain breeding ideals - not a bad thing, but it is only a fraction of what the breeders need. Because our registries here have not developed regionally - as they have in other areas of Europe, they do not really focus on serving the needs of a regional group - as they do in Europe. So we have to do that ourselves.

But just like the piecemeal issues that faced the development of dressage here prior to USDF, I think breeders will have piecemeal hit and miss development unless and until they have an organization to work with and through and it is not going to be any one breed/registry organization if we are going to accomplish much.

That is my take on the first step - getting a national organization that is committed to providing services other than registry inspections to breeders.

Sporthorse South

Dec. 17, 2003, 05:14 PM

Well, I would think that an organization like FNASHR would be a good start - BUT it would have to become very inclusive and non-political - i.e., admit other registries that its power structure has in the past tried to blackball, and it would have to become very adamant about making sure its leadership stays neutral and not financially connected in any way to any particular registry, organization, farm, trainer, etc. The old days of having the Executive Director of FHASHR also be the Executive Director and inspector for a certain large and well-funded registry would have to go by the wayside if breeders from other registries are to place their faith in programs run by FNASHR.

LLDM

Dec. 17, 2003, 07:55 PM

Well, the website idea would need to be two fold. One - The breeder/trainer connection. This would (hopefully) start helping folks in the near future. Two - A place to meet and flesh out the ideas, structure and goals of the type of organization you are describing.

This thread is all well and good, but I can't help wanting to put it a Lotus Notes type format. Lotus Notes was developed to capture just this type of info., grab the "creative" ideas and put some structure around it. It was the original "groupware" concept.

I just can't help thinking that we need a host (which, given the right host, is cheap or almost free).

BTW - I only know Equine college grad. She's awesome, but then again, she was a Pony Club grad too! If I could get her full time, I wouldn't even be needing to have this discussion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hey, here's a thought! What about a corporate sponser? Put on your thinking caps! Who do we (breeders) spend the most money with? Intervet/Fort Dodge? Maybe we should look at how other ag businesses work, like how are the cattle breeders organized? I say we poach ideas where ever we can find them.

I'm rambling... see you tomorrow.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

mbp

Dec. 22, 2003, 12:45 PM

A bump - in connection with Tiki's posts on the USDF sessions.

It very much seems that we need a central national organization that is interested in promoting US breeders. Do we have anything that can be reshaped - or do we need to start from scratch?

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 22, 2003, 12:57 PM

mbp

All the ideas expressed here are great. The tenacity of the people posting here is great.

The biggest problem is trying to get people organized... again, we have issues here that Europe doesn't. The two most obvious to me are size, and what I like to call the "instant gratification" syndrome.

Both are very solvable. But a lot of time its easier to sit back on your butt and do nothing. It's going to take a tremendous amount of cash and an even bigger effort on the part of a huge number of breeders.

And my caveat is simple: unless the US breeder has a huge input in what is *going* to be created, they (or their ideas/wishes/needs) will be either ignored or left out.

Think about that one.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

mbp

Dec. 22, 2003, 01:39 PM

That is a big issue. Because, to be honest, most of the organizations that might have any input or effect are not very directly responsible too (or responsive to) the breeders.

Many of the registries are set up with Boards that are elected or appointed by --- other board members. This is something that is not that horribly unusual when you have issues like the low density of membership and wide geographic area, but still it provides an entity whose leadership is not as likely to be repsonsive. USEF is going to be largely similar. USDF has representation that comes from the GMOs by and large. So they have input - but breeders are not much of that segment. FNASHR has representation that is appointed by the member registries - so again, if the registries are not having elected officials or representation ...

Think about it - what do breeders get a "vote" in or on? Not much directly. It can be very hard, also, to even begin to figure out where the $$ are going, to know whether claims that programs are too expensive etc. are justifiable (I assume they usually are - everything everywhere is always too expensive to do correctly).

In any event, I think the sporthorse breeders need a national representative organization. I don't think the piecemeal registries will cut it for really making things better for US breeders. I agree that it needs to be one that works with breeders of ALL the applicable registries. We don't have one now - and I don't know that we will have one in the foreseeable future. SO we can continue to be living examples of the axiom "Divide and Conquer"

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 22, 2003, 01:52 PM

mbp -

OMG! You've finally hit the nail right smack dab on the head.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> In any event, I think the sporthorse breeders need a national representative organization. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, yes and yes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>and I don't know that we will have one in the foreseeable future. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sounds like THIS, this should actually be the focus. And of course, you are completely correct again:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> SO we can continue to be living examples of the axiom "Divide and Conquer" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everything else seems to fall into place if you have the numbers behind you. The biggest question I would have ... could the different registries (think ISR/GOV) put aside their differences to join together for the good of all? Or would it be an invitation to disaster.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

mbp

Dec. 22, 2003, 01:58 PM

I don't know so much about an invitation to disaster, but I do think to rely upon the national organization being established by the registries coming together on their own is an invitation to inaction.

I think the breeders have to push for it, create it, and then get the registries to support it as a fait accompli. If any registries want to prove me wrong though, that would be nice http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

retreadeventer

Dec. 22, 2003, 06:27 PM

As Oldenburg Mom knows, I am a trainer. I would love to train a barnful of top young horses, altho I only have three at present (one my own) and space available at a reasonable rate. I sympathise with ThreeWindsFarm and her horrible experience with her young horses. Training horses for other people bears great responsibilities, many of which the typical owner does not know about or understand until the bill comes. Sporthorse breeders are GREAT owners in my opinion and the kind I would rather work for than any other owner. The idea of a national organization -- I just posted on another thread -- such as an American Young Sporthorse Association or something -- is an idea whose time has come. And I say this purely from my own standpoint as a trainer who is seeking young horses to train and show. Go for it!

Don't underestimate the power of a single committed person. They say one person can't change the world, but indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

sketcher

Dec. 24, 2003, 08:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mbp:
And to do that, there needs to be a structure to work with and bootstrap from. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree...

Following this thread, I am also thinking that regional centers are not a good way to start out but something to shoot for in the long run as the idea shows itself to be successful.

We need to concentrate enough good equine and human talent in one place - enough to make it worthwile for potential buyers to travel to.

Maybe purchase one large facility that can handle training, sales and different competitions from all sporthorse registries - that can accomodate apprentices who are interested in short term or long term apprenticeships.

Would people be willing to buy shares in such a facility? I would if I could afford to..especially if I could make payments like a small loan or mortgage...and there was some sort of elected committee including trainers, owners, maybe an apprentice or two....making the decisions along with a good business plan.

I'd be more willing to invest my money in a share of something that is an actual investment in real estate.. people who wanted to utilize the facility without buying in could be given a regular fee schedule.

I just think the regional idea won't work at first. There needs to be one concentrated area to work from geographically, then bootstrap into a regional organization - or keep it a quality, one site training center that is of such quality and reasonably priced that people are willing to travel to shop and breeders are willing to ship the distance.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 26, 2003, 05:24 AM

OMG. I think I'm going to faint.

GM called. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Well, hesh my mouth. Guess I'll call him Monday.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

mbp

Dec. 26, 2003, 11:00 AM

I hope its not really a "hesh my mouth" kind of thing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LLDM

Dec. 26, 2003, 08:13 PM

OM - DO NOT FAINT! He hates that sort of thing http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Be a good girl and represent us breeders well.

Congrats! (the scariest work in the world!)

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

Jane

Dec. 26, 2003, 10:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
OMG. I think I'm going to faint.

GM called. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GM is a gentleman, he returns ALL phone calls and letters! The reason it took him a while to get back to you is probably because he had been in Australia and the west coast since mid November. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

blackstallion

Dec. 27, 2003, 04:13 AM

Has this already been suggested?

What if this weren't only a training center for young horses, but also a training center for trainers? Under the supervision and instruction of the head instructor (from Germany or not), trainer "wanna be's" could go spend 3 months working with the young showhorse "wanna be's" (or, at least the breeders want them to be!) and for brining along x number of horses and showing them as the final test the trainer/student receives "National Sporthorse Breeders" Trainers Accreditation and Certification (the title we decide to give ourselves).

In this way, we are creating a standard of trainer that we will recognize as having requirements we want, reward the young/new trainers for participation in our program and continued participation as they will no doubt also be gaining future clients through connections they make while in training. And we would have a nationally recognized certification the graduates could choose to go home and begin their private training programs which will meet the standards we have all been taking about. They could continue to pay annual dues and be required to train x number of horses per year or do some kind of continuing education to keep up their certification.

If we can make this a win-win situation all around, it can work for everyone's best interest. I think this type of recognition would go farther than the promise of commissions for the student/trainers, especially for those who desire a business of their own (or already have a business of their own).

Just the same as qualifying the young horses who come into the program, there would need to be standards for who may enter and what he/she must do to receive the certification.

Obviously, the selection of the head instructor(s) is extremely important and putting the program requirements to pen and paper. I didn't get through all of the threads and posts about this yet, so, sorry to repeat it, if you've already thought of this.

Kim
Eastern Shore of Virginia
Standing Katahdin
1999 Black JC Thoroughbred Stallion
http://rrthoroughbreds.tripod.com/katahdin/

mbp

Dec. 27, 2003, 02:26 PM

That general concept - training program for "student" in training, has been mentioned in bits and pieces here and there in this thread and the other. It has a lot of merit. Of course, you need some initial qualifications for people to feel comfortable having the "students" work with their horses. There were some suggestions of college equine program affiliation and a suggestion (mine http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) of something like Pony Club B proficiency, etc.

We have wondered on and off about funding issues. I wonder if there would be any way to tie in with the land grant universities and get some support with these being the types of "farmer/livestock/competitive in the markets" issues that they were originally charged with addressing. OTOH, I wouldn't really like to have a lot of the students I have seen in the University programs be the ones breaking my horses. But maybe that would be the way to start?

LLDM

Dec. 27, 2003, 06:39 PM

We so need a young horse trainer certification program. I don't know of any. Does anyone? There are tons of trainers from BNTs to NNTs. I want a trainer that specializes and is recognized as a specialist in young horses!

I don't care if they can teach riding, I don't care if they can ride a grand prix test or course. I want to know if they get and understand the correct way to start my youngsters! That they will spend all their energy, time and knowledge bringing out the best in my horse. I know they are out there. In fact I have one. But know one knows her name and she has no certificate and no one goes "Oh SHE started your horse!" even though they should.

It's a shame. Can that change?

We need our own Bereiter system!!!!!

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 28, 2003, 03:57 PM

Does everyone realise how many issues and problems we are just trying to address, much less solve? We are all talking about the entire structure of sport horses in this country.

All of us, each of us, has our own agenda: LLDM, you're worrying about your 8 guys. I'm worrying about my five guys. We're ALL worried about trainers. Well, ok. Worried may not be the right word. But it sure as heck occupies the preponderance of my waking hours.

ANYWAY. I'm still delighted that GM called. I'm looking forward to speaking with him on Monday, and I wonder what on earth he (or who) he is going to recommend for my jumper youngun...or indeed, what his comments will be on the issue.

If ANYONE is going to understand the conundrum here, I would expect he would. <famous last words.>

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

MsHunter

Dec. 28, 2003, 04:29 PM

Not to burst anyones bubble, but I do have a question LLDM for you. You stated" someone who knows how to start youngsters right". My question to all is "who decides what is right/wrong"? In the horse business what I have found is the customers/owners usually have the way they'd like things done, the trainer has there way. The rider complies with the trainer. Way back when this thread started I said we start young horses. No one even made a comment. One of the reasons we have had great success is that we don't take on too many at one time. Also, our owners visit to see progress and we send pictures/video and they come to the shows to see them in action. What is NOT negotiable is HOW we start them. In my mind, our lives are at stake to take an owners perspective who'd rather not sit on the horse until it is broke and kicking quiet or may want to only watch it from the gate and get it sold.
I'd rather have someone ask me what the youngs ones we have started have gone on to do, rather than ask me 50 questions about my training program and how I do things. In fact, giving away all your techniques and ideas isn't business savvy to begin with. I am always ready to share the end result. Getting them started and getting them sold are TWO entirely different things. horses get sold at horse shows. In my mind, it is the oNLY way to get $$. Sometimes we don't even enter a class with them, they can be sold just being seen in a schooling ring! Anyway, I had to post again as I know from ALL the people I know that no 2 people agree on how to start horses properly or how long it should take or the age in which they start etc etc. Have you guys even discussed this aspect?

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

LLDM

Dec. 28, 2003, 07:25 PM

MsHunter - Well, there is more than one way to start a horse correctly. And definitely many more ways to start them wrong. Just like with riding instruction. However, there are many organizations who specialize in or have programs to certify instructors. This doesn't mean that I will like every certified instructor, but it will cut down on the totally awful one's I have to go through.

Many professional organizations have standards. That is what I'm after. Basic standards of conduct and basic philosophies. The German's have it, they sell many horses over here based on it, and I want it. If I have to go import a Bereiter, at this point I'm seriously considering it. Not because I don't think we have the capabilty in this country, but because ITS TOO HARD. No one knows ANYTHING about anyone's real capabilities unless they know them first hand and well.

Systems, standards, something that lets me have a little clue you're not the Jeffry Domer of the horse world. I think there is a chance to do this in the dressage, jumper and eventer worlds, but the hunter world is uh, unique.

If I were a trainer, especially of young horses, I would be jumping up and down to find a way to prove I follow "standard practices and proceedures". BTW this is quite common in the business world for consultants and project based professional work. This concept, roughly translated is, "Yes, I have learned how NOT to make all those stupid beginer mistakes." In our world it would mean, "No, I didn't just read 'Lion's on Horses' and hang out my trainer shingle." In the business world certifications are based on testing, knowledge and sucessful experience.

So, my question for you is this: Do you see any value in a trainers' organization or certification type program? If you trainers do a program, you get to decide how it works and what is right. Then the breeders can decide whether or not it's useful to us.

I must be a hopeless romantic. There is a problem. Young horses need to get going and seen and find their way to the many amatuers and juniors who will ride them, show them and love them. Ami's and jr's PAY FOR MOST EVERYTHING. This should not be as hard as it is. There is a perception that the trainers make all the money (I personally think it's the folk who run horse shows). What is so wrong with trying to make a system that works for everyone. Frankly, what we have here is chaos.

I'm trying. But I am begining to suspect it is hopeless. Too many people have their own agenda, including me.

BTW - I do start my own (correctly in my mind) with help from a professional trainer. For that, I do get to decide how they are trained. It is my horse. I have had a number of offers for training thanks to this little exercise. That was so not my point.

All I wanted was to be able to tell a perspective buyer: "This horse is four years old, was started using the accepted basics by someone who is recognized for such things, and shows talent in this or these areas. He is (or is not) suitable as an amatuer's horse. And have that buyer be able to believe me.

I must have been dreaming.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

blackstallion

Dec. 29, 2003, 02:06 AM

I don't think we are that far off from a common goal as it seems. We are just hashing out ideas and it needs to be done. Everyone's thoughts need to be contributed.

I am not sure why a trainer would take such a defensive stance against a trainer certification program. I wouldn't send my 5 year old child to a school that wasn't accredited, why would I send my 3 year old horse to a school whose trainers were not certified in some way? Like a lot of others on this board, I do as much of my own training as possible. If I am going to ship out a horse for training, I want to know a standard is being followed and if nothing else, a good code of ethics is believed in. I don't blindly follow anyone. When I ask someone to finish a horse for me, I am right there watching them. Wouldn't it strengthen your profession if all trainers were required to achieve a nationally recognized certification just as instructors are required, just as judges are required, oh, and just as our breeding programs are required through breed registration and/or inspections?

Your response is puzzling http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Kim
Eastern Shore of Virginia
Standing Katahdin
1999 Black JC Thoroughbred Stallion
http://rrthoroughbreds.tripod.com/katahdin/

MsHunter

Dec. 29, 2003, 03:49 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifI can only speak from a hunter/jumper point of view and don't get me wrong, I am playing devils advocate to keep you guys thinking more than anything else. Bear in mind, I wont be able to check in again until late this evening.

I understand the concept of certification and accountability issues. I think it can be broken down first to a more obtainable level.
Rome wasn't built in a day. I think you need to get your list of trainers for EACH DISCIPLINE. We can ALL get them started u/s.
Afterwards, they need to work with a trainer of a suitable discipline IMHO.. The only difference maybe being dressage.
BUt, first of all. Find farms that are insured for you and your horses safety. My board could be $50 a month less if I didn't have every coverage under the sun, INCLUDING some medical!
Secondly, why can't success be measured by "Where are they today?" after they left trainers barn. Example. 2 years ago we started
3 young horses u/s and all of them did the IHF 2 yr old program. Afterwards they went back to their homes with their owners and or trainers.
All competed and garnished prizes or did a respectable job. Do I think all horses should get started and show late in their 2 yr old year? NO. But, I will comply with an owners request as long as the horse is mentally accepting of the work and all 3 of these horses were. Aren't credentials also horses that you have bred and raised that are showing and winning at the top venues? I thought the objective for many was to SELL SELL SELL and try to take advantage of an opportunity to take the special one all the way through? What I find ruins a young horse more than anything is TOO MANY CHANGES in it's formative years. that is MHO only and I may be dead wrong, but I think it is confusing to a horse, no matter HOW good the rider, the barn or the training methods used.. Every rider and every trainer ARE different, even if they are accomplished.
We have had horses sent to us for a 90 day program. I accept that IF I know what they envision the next step is for the horse. I don't want to know it went back home to a grassy field and then they want to try to hop on it themselves 90 days later. I also have taken in horses at 3 that we started and kept going for 6 months and took them further along and I recommended they go home for the winter and come back in the spring. Saves the customer money and the horse is more saleable at 4 years old.

Maybe what your looking for is "Integrity, Honestly, Responsibility, Affordability, and Talent".

I am not sure you necessarily find that in a trainer who is certified they can train horses.

There are many ends of the spectrum from the backyard type setting with a cowboy, all the way to the top trainers that show in WPB.

What I find is the top trainers do NOT care what I THINK about the horse, they care what THEY think about the horse. Send a tape, if it moves and jumps good, even free jumping, they are interested. They will buy. They I GUARANTEE you are NOT going to ask "WHo is it by, who is it out of, and what do you think
it can do"? They are going to form their own opinions and 90% of the time they are right on the money.

Also, 4 year olds are somewhat marketable, 5 year olds DEFINITELY marketable. 3 year old somewhat marketable. People want to put the horse in a trailer and go horse show. They are not paying 35,000 plus to look at how cute it is. If it isn't going to have that talent you need to be able to TRUST your trainers TALENT to be able to tell you this before you sink a boatload of money into the horse.

If your talking about regional centers that do this for a living, your NOT talking about trainers and riders who horse show for a living who know best what sells and what talent is
IMVHO.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

mbp

Dec. 29, 2003, 11:17 AM

Some really excellent points Ms Hunter. What I would be looking for in a trainer certification might be very different than others. I agree that there is a lot of individuality in training approaches, different disciplines and different horses need different things. I DO think that it is very important to know what a trainer's horses have gone on to do - but for younger trainers this may not be as much an option.

What I would be looking for:

1) that the trainer is tested on and proficient in a range of horse care aspects. I have seen young trainers pop a needle a banamine when the circumstances did not warrant, I have seen riders who could "ride anything" who couldn't tell when a horse was sore, or when a shoeing job was atrocious, etc. If my horse is going away from home, I want to know that the "trainer" who has full custody and control, knows how to take care of a horse. That is why I do lean towards eventers and pony clubbers, bc in my experience they have had horse care more drilled into them on a widespread basis. All the disciplines have good horsemen, I just think the overall stats are better with those 2 groups.

2) That the trainer understand the nature and effects of different types of shoes and tack. I don't want some young (or old) trainer putting on an elevator bit and then fighting my horse bc they can't keep its head down, I don't want my young horse getting eggbars bc they think its a dressage shoe, and coming home with contracted heels, etc. That kind of basic proficiency.

3) I want to know that the trainer has a good working knowledge of the rules and regs of the disciplines they are training in/for.

4) I want to know they have some baseline riding proficiency themselves - whether it is from show results themselves or independent testing.

5) I want to know that the trainer has certain guidelines they follow on disclosures to owner and buyers and on commissions and charges. I want to know that if they gave the horse tranqs and didn't tell me, and I can prove it, then there is some entity that I can report them to and that can yank ceritification. That if we agree on a commission, and they have a strawman buy with that commission and turn around and resell taking a much bigger chunk - there is an entity that might give do or say something. Commissions are negotiable, but there should be standardized disclosure. I think having some recommended training contracts with plenty of blanks for the negotiated rates, but which take some of the guesswork and recriminations out of the 1001 things that can (and do) come up, would be nice.

6) I would like to know that there is insurance, covering enough situations, and in a large enough amount, to give me a comfort level. I think certification might require that the certified provide certificates of insurance for proof of coverage.

Other than those things, the actual training methods I would not be as concerned about at this point. But I do think that having a second or advanced program that operates more like a bereiters program and does actually teach a young or new professional how to train, would be a nice program. BUt I would be plenty happy to look to results already produced for a trainer who has been around the block. But even if they have produced some horses who do ok in the ring, but they can't tell a colic from an abcess, I don't want them to have custody of my horse. So results in the ring are not the only thing that would matter to me.

And I think shows for young horses would be an integral part of a national breeders organization. SHows that maybe are not USEF recognized, are cheaper and easier to enter, but offer prize $ to horses bred by member breeders. Something along those lines - shows do sell horses.

MsHunter

Dec. 29, 2003, 06:06 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif And, mpb, I killed the thread !!!
I am sorry, I will post more later.
I like what your thoughts are and I agree
100% that horseman are required in this process.
I think they can be the trainer, or the rider, or both. I also think it is essential around youngsters. I however am not fond of pony club. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Putting on flame suit http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I understand where you were going with the thought however. I ask what another question of what costs are being thought about right now?
How are you going to keep the barn healthy with so many horses in one place coming in and out and so many young ones? Closed herds keep barns healthy and quarantine areas are a must for the new ones added to the setting.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

LLDM

Dec. 31, 2003, 08:08 PM

Oh MSHunter - This is growing fast so please join us!

All right everybody who is reading this thread:

Get thee to THIS THREAD (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=861603921) and weigh in. Anyone concerned enough to wade through to this point should share their good ideas for the new concept which has been proposed based on this and a couple of other Breeder/Trainer/Young Horse discussions here on CoTH.

Thanks for your comments, keep them coming!

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

khobstetter

Jan. 1, 2004, 08:28 AM

OK...PLEASE DO NOT FLAME ME.....I WILL OFFER AN HONEST OPINION...

Seems to me you guys are trying to blame the trainers..you are making the trainers THE problem....

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION!!!

I have a few breeders who I allow to send me their young stock....over the years I have had ALOT of breeders send me their young stock and I have given significant $$ breaks based on what they said the young horse was....

Breeders have a way of looking at their young stock with DARK rose colored glasses!!! It seems (yes a generalization) that American breeders look at their foals and ONLY see the good points and over look the bad parts of their foals.

I get calls all the time about "young prospects" that will set the world on fire...at first I took the breeders word for it and "made a deal"..I was the loser as the horses were NOT as represented..

A breeder would send me a lovely horse they said was "perfect" in conformation and manners...it would arrive with crooked legs and not stand still!!

So I insisted on photos and a video...always got one where you couldn't see the horse well.

SOOO I started flying out to see the young stock...TOO MANY wasted trips...

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOo now I go to Europe to buy them AND I BUY ALOT OF THEM!!

I personally LOVE the Young Jumper program and LOVE doing the baby green projects..

BUT TO SELL THEM FOR ALOT OF MONEY I HAVE TO HAVE A GREAT "RAW PRODUCT"..!!! It is my time and my REPUTATION on the line when I present one for sale..

I have had a 5 or 6 year old Jumper win in the Young Horse classes at Indio every year for the past 4 years..all of them for sale and all got sold....Also have baby greens that win and get sold...

Why do I love the German breeders??..THEY ARE CUT THROAT ABOUT THEIR OWN FOALS!! They are realistic about what they have and how they price it...AND they know going in it costs alot of money to breed and keep them..

Just because you have $15,000 - $20,000 in your faol, it may NOT be worth that!!! Hard fact BUT a reality.

Their pricing structure is in direct relation to what they have...

Here it seems the breeders price their horses by what they have "heard"....."I heard Joe Smo sold his young horse for $40,000...SO THAT'S WHAT MINE IS WORTH..

I would LOVE to speak to any of you with great horses that need to be marketed and sold...I need young ones!!! Especially hunter types...Indio is a coming and I need sale stock..

BUT can't you guys get a program where someone HERE (NOT GERMAN) can evaluate your stock and HONESTLY tell you what you have??? AND you listen to it...instead yo get mad at us for telling you your young horse is crooked legged, long backed, bad headed, a bad mover, jumps with its legs hanging and so on....harsh but real facts sometimes...

BE CAREFUL here with that suggestion...I have offered honest opinions about a horse or two and the breeders are PISSED at me because I pointed out that its crooked leg would not allow it to be a high dollar conformation horse..

I got one sent to me that was to be a PERFECT Conformation division horse..it was 3 years old and was "broke with some milage"...I got a 3 year old 15.1 hand paint Warmblood built like a quarter horse with horrible crooked legs, a bowed tendon, a suspensory history and a stride that was about 8' long (at best). She wanted $30,000 for the horse as someone had told her how much the paint warmbloods were worth. AND it had been with a backyard trainer who jumped it 4'. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I turned out to be the bad guy cause I couldn't sell the horse and it wouldn't stay sound. Thank God I got pictures when it arrived and did a Profile chart on it...She could have sold it right off the bat for $10,000 but kept saying "her friend" advised her different. Its now a brood mare making more of "those"!!!!!!

Sorry for the ramble BUT I just got a little itchy reading this thread where you guys seem to think the problem is the trainers...

NOPE...send me good stock and price it realistic....if it's worth $50,000 then LET'S GET $50,000.....but if its woth $10,000, at least know that.

The harsh reality for the breeder is that sometimes what you end up with has NOTHING to do with the $$$ you have in it....

Better to cut your losses and get on about breeding SUPER foals...not just faols...

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

khobstetter

Jan. 1, 2004, 08:37 AM

PS....if you are REALLY interested I would be interested and available to help you guys create a trainers group to help you..

It would ABSOLUTELY be in MY (and other trainers) best interest to be able to get young horses bred here that we NEED...we don't go to Europe cause we WANT to..we go cause we HAVE to to get the quality we want...

I'm sure there are some great ones here BUT WE CAN'T FIND THEM....can't see the forest for the trees.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Not just another young horse...BUT A SUPER YOUNG HORSE!!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Dune

Jan. 1, 2004, 09:26 AM

Well, I'm hiding behind khobstetter while I say this but, I totally agree with her. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm sorry if this bruises some egos, but her experiences have been mine as well. This "barn blindness" is mind boggling, because the breeders I know are not stupid people. And when they finally do get something that is a nice animal, they price it in such a way as to make up for all the losses incurred on the culls! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif It is also very emotional on their part, because they are proud, I guess. But it cannot be that way. Sorry. I do like dealing with someone that is not so emotionally attached to their animal and can just give me a fair price based on what the animal is worth. That is what I got by shopping in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif This is going to hit on another nerve, but here I go. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I get tired of breeders trying to 'hand-pick' the homes. Of course we want our horses to have the best homes/owners possible, but come on, gals! If the people have the $$ and they ride the horse decently, sell 'em the horse! Better that then it sits around rotting in your backyard until it is 7-8 years old, spoiled and still not doing anything. Maybe none of the breeders on this board are this way, but I've seen waaaay too much of this in my neck of the woods! OK, I hope that my flame suit and hiding behind khob. are going to be enough protection. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

dray

Jan. 1, 2004, 09:56 AM

Please feel free to continue to buy your tickets to Europe.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will proceed to help ourselves the best way we know how at this point in time.

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
www.sportequine.com (http://www.sportequine.com)

khobstetter

Jan. 1, 2004, 10:20 AM

OK..another HUMBLE OPINION...

The difference is that the European breeders come from breeding families who have done it for years!!

Here, I think, the breeders are (for the most part) relatively new, first generation, breeders. ALL are trying to do a good job but without the decades of experience their "view" of not only their young stock BUT the prices that are realistic, the breeders are "hopefuls" without knowledge.

I do not mean breeding knowledge...anyone can breed and raise a foal..yep anyone!!

I mean knowledge that comes from the school of hard knocks!! THAT is the only school that really jells the knowledge and determination that makes for LONG TERM great breeders.

Hard knocks makes a breeder REALLY wise about how they see their foals and what they expect to get when selling. Hard knocks makes for a breeder who is ADAMENT about the research of the combination...and ADAMENT about culling with a realistic eye!!!

I went to Harm Tormahlen (spelling), the breeder of Fein Cera when I was last in Germany. I have bought a couple from him at the sales and at shows BUT this time...He toured me the entire place, showed me all his horses and foals.....SOME NICE HORSES.

He had some FINE foals that he was personally disappointed in cause they didn't meet his standards. He knows every foal and they know him, they come up and rub all over him and pull stuff out of his pocket to play!!

Those foals were for sale CHEAP !!

We had coffee and a Danish for hours and he talked about how difficult it was keeping his eye on the REAL point...not just foals BUT SUPER FOALS !!

He has had some of the best stallions, (Capitol, etc) and has gelded some VERY well bred ones that did not throw SUPER foals...sure they threw good foals, BUT NOT SUPER FOALS!! He has given away well bred mares cause they just threw "nice" foals and NOT SUPER FOALS.

His point was simple...he is breeding for winners in the sport..NOT HOUSE PETS!! It costs ALOT of money to breed for and keep foals and THE DIFFERENCE is in the end price you can sell them for.

Just because he likes a certain horse, stallion, mare or foal...it doesn't matter!! His point is to breed for something he can get top dollar for...therefore he is cut throat about his breeding..to which stallion and out of which mare...

I think there are alot of trainers who would get involved IF it were beneficial....

BUT the problem for trainers is exactly as stated so far on this thread...we cannot get good "raw products" here and if we are honest with you...you bad mouth us and blame us for your inferior young horse.....not something we really want to get involved with..

BESIDES..we can always go to Europe and we don't have to wear these younghorses that are not the quality some breeders think they are..

OK.....flame up...I think this is good dialog and would hope something good comes out of it and we can all figure out a way to work together HER IN THE USA...

I for one am available for ideas....

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 1, 2004, 10:36 AM

khobstetter and dune:
I would welome your opinion of my foals and the price I have on them. I am breeding my 3rd generation. Please feel free to PT me.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

khobstetter

Jan. 1, 2004, 11:57 AM

Fairview..

Looks like you have some beautiful foals!!!! I would love to see them in person sometime when I am east. Do you have a video?? I specifically loved Niagara.

Thanks

dray..your post is one of the reasons we don't deal with breeders (yes a generalization)..

All we have done is post suggestions, opinions AND offered to get involved with the breeders..instead you just get a bit snippy with us..

We WILL continue to go to Europe, at a loss to the local breeders... BUT we would like to NOT have to......

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

dray

Jan. 1, 2004, 01:12 PM

I'm also a rider. One of my foals is scheduled to go to Europe. I do breed nice horses and ahve been told so by european friends who visit me. I have consulted at length with my Euro friends regarding my program. I have several come to the farm each year for visits and reviews, etc. I might have another foal being bought by a European if I decide I want to let her go. Now want to keep my options open regarding her potential as riding and breeding horse because her bloodlines are fairly special. We'll see as time goes on.

It's okay with me if you want to assume I am ignorant. Free enterprise is the governing body in the end. Good luck in your travels. And you are so correct, generalizations tend to create snippy comments. I do apologize for that comment.

Kind regards,
Donna Ray

Laurie@CBF

Jan. 1, 2004, 04:27 PM

Dune and Knobsetter I do appreciate your comments - even if they are painful to some. In my early years I have to agree with you that I wanted too much money for my young horses. Unfortunately NONE of the trainers that I sent my horses to had the guts to tell me that. They were happy to train and show the horses (and take my money). Sometimes I would drop 1K in a week going to one of the bigger hunter shows. It wasn't until I had spent about 10K in six months I finally realized the horse that I wanted 25K for wasn't going to get sold. When I told the trainers it was time to bring my horse home - they said - you know we did have someone interested in her - but there just wasn't enough room on the top of her price to make it worth it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. They did not even present me with an offer. Bottom line was that horse was great for the professionals, but needed a lot more mileage to be suitable for the typical amateur. No one told me that - I finally got that on my own http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. It was an expensive lesson for me.

I feel now I do have much more "realistic" prices on my youngsters. What I find for people who are looking for babies is that they want the stunning mover - even if there is no way they can ride it (like my mare oh so many years ago). I have worked hard on breeding more "amateur" temperaments into my young horses - but now I have to hold on to them until they are US as they aren't the "breed show winner" as a baby http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

I am still in the learning curve - but it is getting a little less "steep" as time goes on.

khobstetter

Jan. 1, 2004, 04:36 PM

Good Lord Donna, I NEVER asumed you were ignorant!!! Where did that come from??? Please don't put words in my mouth..

I am trying to establish one thing....we (trainers) want to buy in the states, we do not want to travel to Europe...but it is difficult to find good young prospects here....THAT"S a fact..sorry but it is.

I would LOVE for the breeding and training folks to get together..it is a win win for everyone..BUT the fact remains, just as the last inneraction here...it seems it is difficult for breeders here to unite and work with the trainers...it just seems the breeders are always shooting them selves in the foot when it comes to "us".

That's sad because we are the ones looking to buy YOUR horses AND we are the ones giving clients advise as to "yes buy" or "NO don't buy".

It sounds like you sell all of yours for really good prices and don't need to get involved with us......well, there are several here who (IMHO) seem to want to create marketing and sales!!
The true "loser" in this situation is the breeders..and I have several I work with so I know. It is difficult and very $$$$ consuming to raise young horses and I for one hope we can all find a better way for sales so the breeding here in the states GROWS!!

I as a trainer can always go to Europe to buy horses...you as breeders cannot send all your foals over there to be sold.

Seems to me the very best win-win for everyone is to try to get united and work together.

I read this entire thread and did not take offense to most of it..I simply offered a response and my opinion on how we can make things better so I -AND ALL MY TRAINER FRIENDS- don't have to fly over the sea!!!

If I were a breeder reading this thread I MIGHT be a little teeny bit excited that someone was actually willing to get involved....yep, thats what I would do.

PS Thanks for the emails from the 3 breeders I got emails from....

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

khobstetter

Jan. 1, 2004, 04:41 PM

Laurie....I am SO sorry for your experience!!!

Fact is that there are alot of "trainers" out there who are afraid to lose the $$ so they are not upfront. Seems like a bad way to communicate with you breeders and it really makes it difficult for you to trust ANY of us...just as it's a bit difficult for us to trust ANY of you..

HEY HEY..maybe thats the problem..trust and a GREAT working partnership with breeders and trainers. Now isn't THAT a novel idea??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Maybe this thread will help in working to a relationship, or a side "organization"-"group" that can be benefitial to all..

It has to start somewhere..if I can help any of you, let me know..I will try!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

khobstetter

Jan. 1, 2004, 04:50 PM

OK guys..I started a thread on Off Course..let's see if we get any responses.

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

eurofoal

Jan. 1, 2004, 06:00 PM

I do agree with Knobsetter, too. And, I'm a breeder, not a trainer. In fact, I just made a post on the dressage board "cost of a young horse" poll, that makes many of the same points. I find that I often agree more with the shoppers/trainers and riders than with the breeders. (Knobsetter, you'd enjoy reading that thread, I think...)

It doesn't matter how much the product cost you to produce, because it has nothing to do with the value of your product. The good ones are still good, the bad ones still bad, regardless. I am particularly unsympathetic to those who indulge themselves with all types of paid services or overpriced breeding stock (If it's worth 10K, don't spend 20-- know your market!) or poorly timed insemination programs and then gripe about how much they spend.

I sell my foals at a pretty good rate, for pretty good prices. My prices, which aren't give away prices, are usually LOWER than the same quality at many other barns, both the great ones and the "oops, don't ever repeat that breeding" ones, too. Overall, it's a tough way to make a buck but I do it because I love it. My stock has gone from fair to good to excellent over the past 15 yrs, and my "whoopsies" nearly non-existant now. Like Laurie, I'm learning much faster now!

The lesson that I've learned the best, after all these years, is that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'd rather sell a foal for a decent price, even my best one, than hang on and hope for the mega-bucks later on. Too much can happen. Once again, it's because I'm a breeder-- I'm not really the one who can best train or campaign a young horse as a show horse. If I keep one, it's usually with the plan to keep it for myself.

Jill
www.eurofoal.com (http://www.eurofoal.com)
European bloodlines made in America

LLDM

Jan. 1, 2004, 06:22 PM

Hey guys - PAY ATTENTION!!!

We are not afraid of the TRUTH!!!!!

That is the WHOLE POINT of this excercise!

There is no SYSTEM!!!!

How do we fix it? Read THIS HERE (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=861603921) and post your constructive critism! We need your ideas on how to make this work for ALL OF US!!!

sorry for all the shouting...

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

Celtic Witch

Jan. 1, 2004, 06:56 PM

I am loving reading this thread! I think the whole regional training centre idea is far fetched if it is anything beyond a trainer tailoring their own yard and programme. I really liked the idea of a website specifically for young horse specialists.

I no longer sell horses for other people on commission. Too much headache for those of us who haven't been around as long as khobstetter (who's posts I agree with 100%). But for those of you who need your youngstock started, what are you willing to pay?

In order to pay my bills and have a small salary (I could make a lot more bartending or waitressing), I need to charge $750 a month. That includes $150 to feed and bed the horse, $150 in stall rental (to include the horse's share of water, electricity, insurance and maintenance), and a measely $10 an hour pay for me @ 1.5 hours a day. Personally, I think its a bargain but wonder exactly what services y'all want and what you want to pay for them.

Regarding qualifications, I'm a BHSAI having earned it in England. And let me tell you, in my experience, letters after your name count for squat.

I know many AIs, IIs and even an I whom I would never ever place a horse with. Qualifications only mean you passed the test on that day. They do not mean that you uphold those standards day to day nor are they a guarantee of one's ethics.

To make it more difficult, neither does a nice yard. I managed a yard in England for an FEI show jumper. The place was fabulous and very clean on the outside. On the inside, the banks in the stables were growing mushrooms and my grooms and I had to wear masks while we removed them. When I was just a livery there, my horse nearly suffered bandage bows because the owner forgot to tell the grooms that I would not be out that night to change them. My horse went without water on several occasions. To get rid of his worm burden (new import), she dosed him with the full contents of every wormer available at the local tack shop. I thought working there would allow me to care for my horses to my standards and keep using the fab facilities.

Instead, I learned that when training horses, exhausting them on the equisizer before riding is a good idea. If any horse acts up, put the bit up higher/switch to a bigger bit/tighten the flash/put on bigger spurs/exhaust him on the equicizer or longe. If a horse isn't getting an exercise, just make the fences bigger etc, etc.

So, I am not a big fan of paper qualifications. Instead, research the professional. Show up unannounced to watch a schooling session. Ask for references and then just ask around. Had I done that about the above yard, I never would have moved my horse in! Instead, I let myself be impressed by a flash yard with flash horses. And I nearly lost my stallion because of it.

Eurofoal -loved your last post.

I agree that the first step is to get realistic. If you cannot afford the price of training, sell it when its young even if it will not fetch the price you hoped or don't breed it. Breeders cannot blame trainers for their mistakes or lack of foresight.

Furthermore, most trainers are in the same boat financially. They too need to make money and cannot afford to give away their services anymore than breeders can afford to give away their stock.

Susie

Royal Oak Sporthorses (http://)
Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.

dray

Jan. 1, 2004, 08:34 PM

Susie,
Well said. Exhausting topics to say the least. We do need a network for breeders to select appropriate trianers for their young horses and an avenue to sell young horses in America. We cannot expect our breed registries todo that for us.

To an extent, you're right about hte letters behind a name...just like with lawyers and doctors...they passed a test on a given day. However, the fact that you dedicated the time to complete the program does say something about you. Free enterprise governs success when a good job is done and this won't be an endorsement per se for trainers, simply an avenue through which matches can be made, so to speak.

What you have said is true as well, trainers cannot train horses for free. Consignments deals can become sticky.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.
Donna

blackstallion

Jan. 2, 2004, 02:56 AM

These are all excellent points from the trainers. If we want to keep buyers in North America, we need to know why they are shopping in Europe. I agree with the comments about some breeders being barn blind, and there are also many dishonest dealer types who will outright lie about a horse to make a sale. But what we are trying to get organized will separate the men from he boys so to speak, in that the young horse will be required to meet minimum standards to get into the program and I would think that conformation and temperament will be at the top of the list. Breeders are not above getting educated as well, and perhaps we can sponsor classes on conformation and evaluating youngstock in order to strengthen our end of the program. I would be interested in more about what trainers are buying and what they want to see when they evaluate a young horse. What age do you like to buy? What conformation are you looking for? What indicators about temperament are you looking for? ETC. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Heading over to the other thread.

Kim
Eastern Shore of Virginia
Standing Katahdin
1999 Black JC Thoroughbred Stallion
http://rrthoroughbreds.tripod.com/katahdin/

MsHunter

Jan. 2, 2004, 03:39 AM

Susie I agree on all accounts with your post.
Since we have not taken any loans, and we are far from being "finished" we can charge less.
But, last years trip to the accountant told me we can charge LESS for our services and survive but we CAN NOT charge less for our board. The numbers aren't working. We are at $550 with an increase coming this spring to $600. However, that being said, we added into that price mane pulls, show clips, baths, daily grooming, flyspray, hoof polish etc. In reality, is there a board increase? No. The owners however like to get one bill without a million misc charges. Also, we have them set up an account with my farrier and veterinarian, so I have no idea of those costs and I don't play middleman in the services. Also, this way, they can be on top of their horses in that regard.
Our training board is $900 for a horse showing
in a program. We lowered our young horse board to $750. has this increased business or interest? NO. ONly from our regular and repeat clientele, which by the way keeps our farm pretty busy and active. So, when you ask us why we don't advertise, I think you will find that some of us don't need to, nor do you hear about us. Maybe we ARE the best kept secrets out there.... Thoughts to ponder....

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

Dune

Jan. 2, 2004, 09:47 AM

Well, I'm glad that khobstetter was able to make it back to the board sooner than I. Once again, I agree with her posts 100% and she said it much more eloquently than I could have. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I am heartened by the mostly positive responses from you breeders, because we are looking for a solution...not just a venue to gripe. I keep saying that I would like to buy my next prospect here in the US. I would loooove to be able to do that! Dray, I'm sorry that you were offended, that is the response I'm most used to hearing which is why I usually try hard to just bite my tongue. However, if you are not one that is having difficulty selling your horses, then it doesn't really apply to you....so I'm not sure why it bothered you so much. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif In any case, I hope that we can continue this diaglog and have some sort of resolution or a least a step in the right direction. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif PS Fairview, check your PTs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Dune on Jan. 02, 2004 at 01:12 PM.]

mbp

Jan. 2, 2004, 10:57 AM

Khobstetter - some really interesting info. You know, I think that FOR HUNTERS IN PARTICULAR, you might be very correct that lots of new breeders have a hard time evaluating their product. I know, there is barn blindness for everything, but breeders get much more "dressagey" feedback with inspections. Both re: the mare and their foal on the ground. I have seen a lot of instances where a foal doesn't have good dressage type movement and it seems that automatically the comment from the breeder will be - "this one will make a good hunter". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If you ask them WHY it might make a good hunter, they often will list the things it DOES NOT HAVE FOR DRESSAGE with the assumption that it will then be agood hunter.

I also see a lot of breeders who will get upset with hunters for not knowing bloodlines or being impressed by bloodlines. On a couple of occassions, though, I have put that back to the breeder complaining with questions like -- Ok, tell me what hunters you know and what you know about their bloodlines and what makes them a good hunter. Usually they are just as bereft. I had one breeder who made those complaints, but when I asked how they thought their horse would compare to, say, Strapless, they just gave me a blank look. Some of the registries are going to start more hunter input, but given how big the market segment could be, they have been the Cinderella of the US breeding industry to some extent.

It also seems to me (maybe wrongly???) that more of the longstanding hunter breeders, whether large or small, start their own. So that a lot of the ones breeding specifically for the hunter market, and not so much having the horse that didn't have enough movement for dressage, handle their own stock. Maybe that is a mistaken impression?

As for how the horses are started, I understand your issues. To be honest, I have sent some of my youngsters out without much other than leading under their belt. But I have been very upfront about that and let the trainer see the horse first to make sure that they wanted to take it that green (no lunging, etc.) It has always worked out fine, but they knew what they had and I knew the horse needed work and handling before it could be started. I didn't expect to drop the horse Friday and go by Weds to see it go w/t under saddle http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here's a suggestion - maybe as a trainer, if you are getting vids in of the horse, you could first put together a vid of a young horse that has what you want on them when they come - standing on cross ties, tacked, lunging, etc. You could send that out and ask them to follow that format on what they send back to you and mention that the vid shows the type of start you generally would want? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You know, I am in a strange one foot here, one foot there situation. I am less and less interested in selling anything and so will probably not breed very much. I am probably the kind of seller that makes Dune nuts, not so much from the pricing standpoint as the "good enough" home standpoint. It doesn't have much to do with how good a rider someone is, but it is just that I have gotten jaded over how many bad things people are willing to do to horses. So I really do admit to a reluctance to sell without knowing a lot, bc I brought that horse into the world - I have a responsibility (in my mind) to it. But I do understand that is not a very businesslike attitude. And for me, at least, it is not an "are you good enough for my horse" it is more of a "will you be good enough to my horse" which is a pretty different question.

OTOH, I have a lot of business background and I see the industry as a complete mess and morass from that standpoint. Everyone does have a short fuse, there have been lots of infights, etc. BUt it is pretty great that something like COTH's bb exists to air some of the issues.

khobstetter

Jan. 2, 2004, 07:59 PM

mbp...super feed back.

I don't completely see the industry as a mess..I see it as a young fledgling trying to learn to fly and haveing a bit of a hard time with hitting the pavement every time..but it keeps getting up and trying to fly again.

I do the inspections here in California every year and I was involved with the 100 day test a few years ago with Ragtime. I think for the breeders it is really difficult to get their "scores" from the Germans and then have to try and sell the stock here in the USA.

Ragtime got lower scores on his head (it was too "feminine") and his trot (it was NOT "explosive")...hahahaha on them, he is a fabalous hunter, a HUGE winner and I just got a TON of money for him!!!! He has THE most beautiful head and the flatest, floating trot in the ring, and he jerks his knees around his ears...AND ALL WITHOUT DRUGS!!!!!

The inspections can cast a very bad shadow over someones opinion. We have had premium foals who then couldn't jump their way out of the feed box...and we have had foals with very low scores that have gone on to be SUPER horses!!

I am afraid the breeders get caught up in what the inspections say and lose perspective of what we want in AMERICA!! And that translates into what the horses are really worth. Remember the judges are looking for BIG Dressage horses and Jumpers!!

It may be that the breeders are breeding to get better scores in the inspections BUT that may not be the horse WE want to buy!!

What we are looking for here is quite different than what they look for in Europe in inspections...especially as it relates to hunters and Eq horses....and thats where the BIG money is!!

Sorry you guys but that's the facts...and to be very blunt..we go over there and usually buy the horses that are NOT working for the Europeans!!! We don't USUALLY go and buy the premium foals or the top breeding stock...we go to buy sport horses and we usually buy the ones that are NOT going up in the ranks there!!

I think the American breeder goes over there to buy the premiums.....not the sport people.

I buy young stock and LOVE doing it. I go to the spring auctions and buy prospects that I know WILL NOT work for them but are SUPER horses for what I am looking for. I go to the farms and buy horses the BNT trainers there pass up..and I bring them home and the BNT here buy them from me!!! I go to the amateur riders and buy the horses they cannot get to the top of the ranks on...and I bring them home and sell them to wonderful children and amateurs here...

One more thing.....the market over there for the breeders is the BIG time jumpers and Dressage horses....the BIG market here are the children and amateurs, HUNTERS AND EQ HORSES...sure we would ALL love to have the big time horse and get big time money but it is usually just us (and you) buying and selling nice, pleasant hores for the American buyer,,,

If the breeders are going to focus on the inspections, then we have a problem...there must be a way to compromise...

OH YEAH!!!! I KNOW the breeders over there do that, I KNOW!!!! But they are breeding HUGE numbers remember, so its simply a matter of the odds. It is not unusual for me to go to a farm where they have 50-100 foals..its numbers!!! We don't have that luxury so we have to be a little more selection and careful.

I have loved dropping in over here on the breeding forum!! Hopefully I have not offended anyone and we can continue to try and find a way for me to buy YOUR horses and not have to fly over the pond!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

mbp

Jan. 4, 2004, 12:45 PM

It has been a lot of fun listening to a trainer's perspective. I think one point in particular caught me eye - something I know, but don't think of that much and don't articulate ever. The fact that the trainers who take riders over are usually NOT buying what were the premium foals. Let's face it, for every successful competition gelding you find, even at the highest levels of competition, that is a horse that didn't make the premiums cut. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The hunter market is really big - I don't really breed for it but I certainly understand some of the dynamics - it really drives the sporthorse industry here IMO. I know that NA/WPN has recently broadened its scope and some of the other registries have too - they are, for example, letting Hunter performance fulfill some of the performance criteria. But still, if they everything they look for and reward at inspection is from more of a dressage standpoint, and if we don't have any good 3/4 yo performance testing to sort out "style jumper" type horses, then the disconnect will still exist to some extent.

It would be great to get some hunter folk involved in the seminars held in conjunction with the inspections now and then - so that they could give some input on what the hunter ring really is looking for and if a breeders dressage reject really could be a hunter standout - or just a hunter disaster too!

It's been fun getting your input - thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.

Cherry

Jan. 4, 2004, 06:46 PM

News flash!!!! In a similar vein--I just got back from Border's Bookstore tonight, where I read the horse magazines (since subscribing to them all would break my bank)...

In the January issue of Practical Horseman, Scott Hassler (of Hilltop fame) says that what the horse industry needs is people to ride these young horses... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif He is so pumped up about this that he's going to try and get the USDF pumped up too... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif This should be interesting.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Evidently he doesn't see a problem with lack of trainers--perhaps he and Frank Chapot should have been contacted as well as GM... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Everything looks good until you start to examine it!!!", uttered by me on more than one occasion

[This message was edited by Cherry on Jan. 04, 2004 at 09:54 PM.]

khobstetter

Jan. 4, 2004, 09:39 PM

Cherry..

I don't think there is a shortage of trainers for the young stock. There are plenty of nice young, and old, trainers that don't do the big open circuit who do a great job at starting young horses.

I think the lack is in a well thought out system of what to do with the horses you guys breed.

Seems to me (again MY humble opinion) that you folks breed for these young horses without a well thoughtout plan about what do do next. It's sort of like..."we will breed and have foals and then worry about what next"..

NOT a good plan.. Part of your breeding plan should be what you are going to do with it at each stange of its life.....AND KNOW AHEAD OF TIME WHO YOU WILL SEND THE FOAL TO!!!!

Seems to me (and again MY humble pinion) that all of a sudden you guys are going..."oh shiy, what do I do with it now!!!"

When my DR client was doing so much breeding we ALWAYS took into account the type of horse MY barn could deal with and what WE could sell since I am his trainer. I was open enough to help him have a diversified program and he did really well with his foals..all sold and have great careers ahead of them with SUPER owners.

I have read several posts here from breeders who have foals and cannot afford to send them out for a proper, safe start.....IMHO those breeders have bred TOO MANY FOALS for their program. Seems to me that the best way to make money is to only breed the # of foals you can financially do right by.

I know it is "fun" to have babies rompling around all the time BUT not if you can't sell them for GOOD money and not if you can't afford to give them a wonderful, kind start in their training.

Also, just to answer a question that was asked of me......I sell hunters, jumpers and Eq horses from the Short Stirrup divison up to Junior Jumpers and Future's horses....AND GP hopefuls...when I go to Europe I go to look for good horses of all kinds...I can sell a good one every time.

You don't have to breed hunters...just breed SUPER foals of any kind. The basic breaking and starting is excatly the same....even for a dressage horse..IMHO!!!!

Again, I am available to try to help you guys get organized and try to set up a plan AS A GROUP OF BREEDERS. If i can help, let me know...

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

showjumpers66

Jan. 4, 2004, 10:05 PM

Fascinating topic ...

Laurie, you are not alone. A friend worked out a "deal" with a trainer to sell their 2 year old gelding. The trainer asked the owner to bring him to the barn and she would prep him, make a sales tape, and would sell him in just a few months. The gelding has been with the trainer for 18 months and she has made no attempt to sell him. She keeps telling the owner that he is not ready to sell yet. First he needed to be broke ... the owner paid someone to ride him for 120 days. Then he needed miles ... the owner has been paying an assistant trainer to school him ever since. Now she is saying that he needs to be in the show ring. I am convinced that this is a con to keep this horse in her barn. I went out there 2 weeks ago and made a sales tape. The trainer was very angry, but guess what? You got it, there was a potential buyer looking at him a week later.

I have spoken with several of the hunter/jumper trainers in my area. The general consensus is that they want made horses that their clients can show now. There are some clients that can not afford a made horse and are shopping for young horses, but they are interested in well started 3 and 4 year olds. There was little interest in having horses that were not ready to show in their barn taking up a stall. When we talked prices, the trainers were wanting young horses in the $8,000 to $15,000 range.

I probably have my weanlings/yearlings priced too low, but I really want them out in the sporthorse world with a career. I know of too many breeders who breed and breed and sell very few (many times due to the fact that they are priced too high). As my horses mature and become successful, they will sell my future young horses and build a reputation for me. This will not only benefit me, but also the trainers who have my horses in their barn.

I am a huge believer in giving young riders opportunities. There are many talented young riders with drive and talent, but who are limited financially. With supervision and mentorship, the young riders could be an economical solution.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[This message was edited by showjumpers66 on Jan. 05, 2004 at 01:19 AM.]

dray

Jan. 5, 2004, 04:16 AM

Kathy, et al...
You are so right. Inspections can make a person crazy. I know of many First Premiums of this and that registry who are standing in a five point stance eating grass. Further, depending on the registry, inspections can get very expensive depending on the number of foals you breed per year in addition to yearly dues for mares and stallions on top of foal review fees. The Danish have a one time fee for review of a mare, so at least you don't have to pay a "tax" just to keep your mare in the registry books.

This will be heresy for a breeder to say, but there are times I feel like I'd be happy with a Certificate of Pedigree and let the horse stand on its own based on form, funtion and ability. I can see both sides of hte fence on this issue, although I do believe that good bloodlines ahve a better chance of producing a great horse than unknown or lines known for bad ridability or tempers, etc. There are threads about horses who show on the line and do well in performance, etc. Some breeders focus on those in hand classes and by the time the horse is ready to go under saddle, feel that the trainer charges too much money when the cost of one show would often cover one month of training. Not all breeeders do this.

Also Kathy, I have a good friend who shows hunters and jumpers and we are starting to swap out a training horse now and then. If he has a horse that isn't a hunter or a jumper, but has good movement for dressage, I can take it and ride it and sell it as a dressage mount. If I have something that really doesn't have the movement for dressage, I can see what it does initially over fences and he can take it. That kind of touches on the barter thread as well, but really supports the trust factor. We have both ridden in the same ring at the same time on the same horses, etc.

At what age can you see talent for the hunter ring in a horse?

eurofoal

Jan. 5, 2004, 08:17 AM

Showjumper said:"<<<I have spoken with several of the hunter/jumper trainers in my area. The general consensus is that they want made horses that their clients can show now. There are some clients that can not afford a made horse and are shopping for young horses, but they are interested in well started 3 and 4 year olds. There was little interest in having horses that were not ready to show in their barn taking up a stall. When we talked prices, the trainers were wanting young horses in the $8,000 to $15,000 range....>>>>>>

Ok guys, so, the challenge is to put these horses in the hands of the buyers for these kind of prices!!! I think a target price of 12-18K for MOST nice 3yr olds is realistic. The nicer ones a bit more (to 25), the not so fancy ones are less (5-8K). The superstars can go for more, but, they are not going to be crowding the pastures, due to law of averages. I think that very, very few green 3yr olds in the world are going to sell for more than 25K-- maybe the top 1-2%-- that would be 2 out of every 100, so maybe not even that many.

Here's how I"m doing it--

Breeding stock:

I shop for fertile, high quality mares at decent prices
I cull for fertility and quality reasons-- If a horse isn't working for me for any reason-- I don't keep it.
I choose top stallions with lowish stud fees (I suggest a through reading of the fine print in all contracts, too). The upfront costs of a pregnancy/live foal can keep you from EVER seeing a breakeven or profit.
I monitor and chart heat cycles. I can inseminate my own mares if need be. I can also administer oxytoxin, do simple flushes, pull blood, etc. Coordinating a herd of 3 mares with a $10 shot of hormones can drastically save your vet fees.
I keep the numbers DOWN, so I don't get overwhelmed with work (been there, done that)

Foals:
I do my own work whenever possible (halterbreaking, minor vet work)
I handle the horses at the inspections or pay a flat rate per hour for helpers
I house the foals in herds (less labor involved)

Care/ routine costs:
I don't blanket (too many replacements needed)
I give my own shots/worming,
I have reasonably priced service people (vets, farriers, dentists)
I trailer myself around
I video my horses ( The Speilberg Award is safe, I assure you!!)
I do my own website

Training:
I do MUCH of my own work
I have working students or hourly paid help 1-2x per week
I use a very competent Western (paint) horse trainer that puts miles and a wonderful start on my horses at a good price, when needed.

Did I mention that I do most of my own work?

Marketing:
I keep my word in all matters and treat my clients like gold. I never insult a potential buyer (even if they really bug me!!) From this, I have built a very loyal clientele.
I'd rather sell quickly for a decent price than hang on for years for a (hoped upon) high price. I'd prefer to sell foals than 3 yr olds, as the workload gets too great with the higher number of horses. THere's not nearly as big of a market for foals, either-- so once again, I rely upon the fact that I have kept my costs down, that my foals are very good, and that they are priced competitively for what they are.

I price my foals and young horses according to market and their particular market value-- I stay on the low side of prices for their quality and rely upon an average of superior stock to keep myself afloat. I know that not everything born on my property will be fantastic, even though it's mine, and I leave the rose-colored glasses OFF at all times. I would say that I'm hypercritical of my stock, more than barn blind.

I hope for a small profit on most horses, and accept that some will be huge losses, some bring moderate profits. Overall, my financial expectations are not really all that lofty, I just want to pay my bills, make a little money if possible, and enjoy doing what I love to do. My expectations are far higher for the quality of stock that I hope to produce than they are for the money that I will make on those same horses.

Jill
www.eurofoal.com (http://www.eurofoal.com)
European bloodlines made in America

khobstetter

Jan. 5, 2004, 08:37 AM

dray..

Assuming you have a way to free jump them I can get a really good idea between 12-18 months but by 2 for sure.

There are still some variables that have to wait till them are under saddle for the "final" value price but the main points are how they move, their top line carriage and their temperament.

However..occasionally they will fool you...not to often

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

showjumpers66

Jan. 5, 2004, 09:41 AM

Well said, Eurofoal! I agree that being more self sufficient is an excellent way of cutting costs.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

dray

Jan. 5, 2004, 11:10 AM

Kathy, Thanks. I do have a chute. I host a few approvals, so that part is easy as well as fun for the youngsters. I have three that will be two in the spring, so that's definately something I'll do with them. I traditionally haven't in the past, but I think it's a very, very good idea.

Amen on temperment. If I'd started riding good horses 25 years ago...well...let's not go there.

Jill,
If I had to contract out everything that happens to support one stallion and ten mares and five foals (with seven on the way) and the riding horses, I'd be on welfare by now.

Your observation that you can't make huge profits on every horse is so accurate. Sometimes you just have to take a hit, but sometimes we will hit the Lotto and that's one reason developing our network is so important. We need to keep what we have available out there for review.

I just sold a horse to a woman in Wisconsin whom I would never have met without networking. She had a friend who knew a trianer down here and a trainer up there and they watched a video, the trainer came down and she bought the horse. Again...a network of trust.

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 5, 2004, 06:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Marketing:
I keep my word in all matters and treat my clients like gold. I never insult a potential buyer (even if they really bug me!!) From this, I have built a very loyal clientele. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an outstanding remark. Bravo, Eurofoal, bravo.

Next time I'm looking I'll give you a call ... and "really bug you" (just kidding.) Perhaps the horse industry would have less of a bad reputation if more people poured this in concrete or wrote it in blood.

These are words for everyone to live by.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

khobstetter

Jan. 5, 2004, 06:30 PM

OK...I'll throw this suggestion on the table and see if it "splatters"... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I will help create a group of trainers that will travel and do "inspections" with you.

I have no idea just exactly who I will approach or how I will set it up BUT it seems if you guys can get your foals, mares and stallions to "inspections" with the Germans for your registrys...you could certainly get organized with the young horses and do just plain..."IS HE A SHOW HORSE" type inspections!!

You could all bring your horses to one central place (stable) in a specific area (that has a jump chute) and have a great, fun day (or two) of watching young horses get evaluated!!!!

Just an idea...they would not be "free" BUT they can be done VERY inexpensive if we could get a group together and get organized...

Any takers on this......

I think for one it is A SUPER IDEA....

I'll go first!!!! I love to travel... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 5, 2004, 06:37 PM

Hey! Khobstetter!

What a great idea! Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

Isn't it great what can happen when everyone puts their idea hat on!

Flesh this out a little ... what would you have? A judge or two? Like a show? What about dressage? What kind of results could you expect? Howabout a score sheet with suggested recommendations?

How about not only a judge, but a BNT? A GM type?

How much do inspections run? About $125 or so? $150? Price it accordingly. Maybe you could even coordinate it WITH an inspection!

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 5, 2004, 09:48 PM

I have always thought a sporthorse breed show with free gaits and free jumping would be great. I thought several years ago that the Virginia Horse Center in Lexington, VA would be a super place for it. Would be fun to even just have sporthorse evaluations done like that - like a stallion approval, but for all. An assortment of trainers from Dressage, Hunters, Jumpers, and Eventing to evaluate.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

mbp

Jan. 11, 2004, 01:44 PM

bump

PaintBy#s

Jan. 11, 2004, 01:49 PM

Bump2- I think Khobsetter has thought up a wonderful idea. There are many people "wanting" this...

Shall this be added to the ideas of the NASHBA?

khobstetter

Jan. 11, 2004, 11:45 PM

I am working on a plan!!!!!!!!! Don't know if it will work yet..BUT..

IF you could bring your young horses to a central location and ALL you would get would be an honest evaluation and critic....
1. Would you come??
2. Would you pay $200 to get it...IN WRITING?
3. Would you bad mouth the judges if you didn't get a YIPPEE WAHOO?

I have to tell you this.....I am working like crazy to help you guys BUT there are alot of concerns out there...the main one being that the breeders will bad mouth the judges if they don't get super scores for their young horses!!

Most quality trainers just plain don't want to "deal" with the mud as it flys around!!

BUT!!!!! I keep talking and working on a SUPER way of doing this without it costing everyone a huge amount of $$$.

Why am I working on it?? Because we (trainers AND the sport) need good young stock to be raised here in the states...and I believe we can all get on the right track.

I will tell you this....IF I CAN GET IT TOGETHER...you guys will get one shot the first time and IF there is alot of bad mouthing from the owners/breeders who don't get "SUPER" evaluations....you will never get a chance to have ANY of them involved again!!!

That is the only concern and hesitation I have gotten. I believe we can get past it but I would really like your response to this so I have an answer the next time it comes up.

I am going to the convention and I will bring my idea to several of the good guys who know young horses and will at least entertain the idea...

What do you guys say???????????????????

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

dray

Jan. 12, 2004, 12:30 AM

One central location for the entire USA will prohibit many already financially strapped breeders from participating. Germany is about the size of Montana, for example.

For breeders to be told they have one shot at participating at a program is also rather daunting, if not positioned in an adversarial manner at best.

Perhaps you would like to expound on this idea? For example, location, age of horses, etc.

The fact of the matter, we already work with registries, e.g., pay around $500 per young horse to register and evaluate with some registries, who give us their opinions on our young stock. It isn't the judges we want to impress. It is the buyers.

That's what I havw to say about that.

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
www.sportequine.com (http://www.sportequine.com)

Laurie@CBF

Jan. 12, 2004, 05:15 AM

I think she said one stable in a specific area - so not one area in the US.

I have no problem giving it a whirl - once. I think that a judging form could be created that is "user friendly" to both judge and horse owner.

Have scales for each discipline and rank the youngster in that discipline.

The ranking can be

Excellent
very good
good
fair
needs some improvement
needs to develope more
youngster at awkward growth stage - when evens out should be....
foal looks uneven today

There are lots of ways to structure this - and I think the final terminology is what is going to be important. People don't want to come out of it feeling that their youngster is "useless". I also think that you need to leave room for the judges to diplomatically say what they see. I have seen a few youngsters at inspections that were either lame behind or neurologic. They did not do well in their score - but there was no mention of a "problem". A comment like "this is not typical movement that we see and you may want to consider having a veterinarian evaluate this youngster" may be appropriate. Sometimes it is something minor like the young horse getting its feet trimmed too short - but judges should be able to comment on what they see.

The AHS inspections are not scored - but each foal is given a verbal evaluation - in front of all the inspectors. Some inspectors are better than others as far as "diplomacy". Phrases like "I would like to see a little cleaner throat latch at this time" is more palatable than "thick throat latch". Overall though it has worked through the years.

dray

Jan. 12, 2004, 06:49 AM

Laurie,

I don't see how this would be different from the In Hand classes. We have some very well qualified judges for these classes and they are already available near most breeders. They are dimplomatic and make a point that they are observing one horse at one moment in time. There is the age old discussion regarding the inability to tie real performance to In Hand evaluations. I won't go quite so far to compare it with Arabian halter classes...

It would be one more place breeders to spend money for an opinion. Devon and other high profile shows are building a "spectatorship", but overall the stands tend to be empty. I really don't see how this type of judges-based will help breeders sell horses.

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 12, 2004, 07:17 AM

The biggest difference I see is that it might give breeders more information about suitability for disciplines other than dressage. Evaluating talent for Hunter/Jumper marketing would be a big plus. Maybe this could be worked out to evaluate 2 - 4 year olds in a jumping chute as an evaluation/showcase of talent. Maybe for the undersaddle youngsters, show over a small course of fences. The IHF classes do this, but only for a select few of nominated horses, and over IMO fences that are too big for 3 year olds.

If something like this could be worked out REGIONALLY, that would be a big plus.

Please make a note that many breeders don't have a suitable/safe jumping chute to train their youngsters. Maybe if a site can be arranged a few days earlier to give breeders the opportunity to introduce their youngster to the jumping chute before evaluating?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

khobstetter

Jan. 12, 2004, 09:00 AM

laurie...I respectfully disagree.....the "system" as it stands here for the breeders has only worked for the "breeders" who are obviously concerned about scoring their young stock. If the current system was working all of us out here would not be going to Europe to buy young stock, we would get it here.

I know there are SOME breeders out there who are selling their stock BUT from reading these threads,,it seems like we all need to get together and build a great program.

I did not mean to infer that it would be ONE location...I said a "central" location. Part of the process would be that of finding where most of the breeders are located and then trying to find a good place..probably 5-6 places or times. It would do NO good to attempt to put this together and then have no one come to the party!!

As far as the scoring..the judges and who we can get is really the key! At the 100 day test there was a rider who really offended MOST of the stallion owners and alot of people came away with a very bad taste, we do NOT want that.

We would really endeavor to get great, diplomatic judges....and PLEASE understand their entire interest in even discussing this and agreeing to be a part of it at all is to get access to young stock themselves.

I agree with Fairview
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The biggest difference I see is that it might give breeders more information about suitability for disciplines other than dressage. Evaluating talent for Hunter/Jumper marketing would be a big plus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your main buying market is in the hunter-jumper disciplines...there are simply more buyers here in the states. While, I FOR ONE, LOVE Dressage and agree that a basic dressage start is THE best for all horses....that is NOT where most of the buying public is for young horses.

H-J people simply put here in the states...PAY MORE! There are more of them..

The scores you get on your "inspections" do not mean a dilly darn to us...we want to see the athlete...plain and simple.

Can I continue to get some additional good suggestions from you as to how you see it work..

I DO have a great plan down on paper BUT I really would like YOUR input as to what you would want....POSITIVE!!

Thanks

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

LLDM

Jan. 12, 2004, 09:41 AM

I just posted this over on the "regional showcase" thread. Sounds similar, so I though I'd copy it here:

*****************************

LLDM
Working Hunter
posted Jan. 12, 2004 12:30 PM
I have thought about this a lot and proposed something like this over on the eventing board.

I am thinking of a young horse horse show (3 - 5 years) with BABY classes for babies. Suitability type classes, available in multiple disciplines (dress, H/J, baby X-country, some in hand work and even free jumping) with individual and combined championships for each age group, manners to count. Judged on slightly different standards than "big" horse competitions (as in points for "recovering well from a spook" or "behaving well under scary conditions"). I want to avoid the over preperation I see in the futurities, as I think it is a major problem there.

The key is to hold it in conjuntion with a major show or event. This would provide a built in audience! Bill it as a "prospects show". Maybe drug testing could be available. It could be unrated and all breeding, training and pedigree info. available & anounced. Horses for sale could posted with flyers and listings with contact info. right by the ring. Riders could be professional or ami's, but also anounced as such.

Just some thoughts!

*******************************************

If you add the written comments, would this type of thing be close enough? Extend the age to two, get trainers in their own disciplines to judge, make it low key and easy on the joints. What do you think?

SCFarm

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

lorik

Jan. 12, 2004, 10:30 AM

You are talking about unrecognized classes here and USEF rules will not allow for unrecgonized classes to be run during a recognized competition. This type of thing would have to be run either the day(s) before or after the recognized competition. In that case, don't you loose your built in audience?
I still love the concept of a young horse show or series of shows, though.

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 12, 2004, 10:34 AM

Another HUGE plus to this type evaluation would be the ability to evaluate the CANTER. In every discipline the Canter IS the most important gait, NOT that big showy trot that wins the DSHB classes. It would also be good to evaluate the personality of the youngsters when not trying to get them fired up to do that trot.

I was by the ring enjoying the performance of one of the big winners in a breed show, and discussing her with a BNT. He was very insistant that the mare was not bought as a RIDING horse as she was SO HOT. He said the owners imported her only to breed, and that the stallion (her sire) produced way too hot of a horse to ride. I was totally shocked. My question is WHY??? Are we truly becoming like the Arabs that just want a horse that will fire off that "big extravagant trot"?

My horses are so hard to get them "up" to show what they have. They are very willing to go forward, just not the "snorty, blowey" stuff. I will continue to go and hopefully do well with solid scores and comments, but it would be nice to have them evaluated on the actual characteristics that will make them stars in the riding disciplines. We have done quite well at Dressage at Devon - not the big wins, but very respectable. We have done it because my horses are a complete package. They get good scores in conformation, walk, AND trot. They have good canters and nice jump form as well. My problem in not selling is:
Not having the time to really market them
Not having the facility to do them justice
Not having the help to be able to show them effectively
Not being able to make a good video
Not having the funds to keep a youngster in training until sold
Not being willing to only breed one a year to be able to pay to send that one out as it has been proven that putting all your eggs in one basket is just not good business sense - especially gambling with horses not getting hurt.

I have to gamble that most will sell young for a profit, and any that I have keep will either break even, or be placed with a trainer that will be able to help me in other ways by showing them.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 12, 2004, 10:41 AM

also wanted to add my other problem
having the facility to keep the youngsters looking sales ready all year.

I can only sell in certain months, and also certain ages as I am not willing to keep my youngsters "tanked up" to look their best. It is hard to sell a ribby, muddy, long mane/coated yearling that toes out a bit to allow them to be straight when the chest widens later. We sell them as foals, or 3/4 year olds.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

mbp

Jan. 12, 2004, 11:28 AM

It would be a great opportunity to have a "hunter type" kind of evaluation, which I think is what Khobstetter is talking about. It seems that would work best in conjuction with regular inspections though?

It is such a pain to get horses to any kind of inspection, that to haul to two separate sites/times/etc. would be more of an issue. Now, if the evaluation where to be held in connection with a "showcase" type of event, I think people would be a little leery of signing up, bc they would be worried (particularly on a first time thing) about having their horse dissed. Maybe, if it was something that seemed to work best at a showcase, there would be a way of pulling the top 10 or so prospects and going over why they are the top hunter type prospects from the bunch - emphasizing the positive in that way?

If it is done in connection with an inspection then I don't think it would be as sensitive and issue. I also think that some of the registries, who are getting more and more interested, might be willing to work with you on this. Maybe the inspection could allow participants to sign up for having their horse evaluated as hunter type also, and then maybe open the hunter type evaluations to non-registry horses too, if time and space allow. I would think that would be a great learning opportunity for the inspectors as well, particularly if their registry is going to try to go down that road. FWIW.

FOr showcase events in general - Lori has a good point about not being able to hold unrecognized and recognized events/classes in conjunction. SO if the tie in event was a recognized show, you would have to go more with a showcase than a young horse show. BUt the tie in could be other events too- maybe a trade fair, maybe some seminars like saddle fitting but with a young horse slant (how your horse may change and things to watch for), etc. or maybe you could have your judges give a talk on evaluating prospects in general, etc.?

Fairview - I think a lot of your concerns are very standard. It would be nice to know that the showcase or young horse show would have some extra people on hand for hire to do handling, or to do some professional videoing etc. - then you could have a "one time" situation for cleaning the horses up, getting some help at making them look their best, getting video shot at a nice facility, etc. -- not all the problems but achunk of them would be addressed. Sometimes you can get a few of those taken care of at an inspection, but you never really know about handlers, video or still shots, programs, etc. Some organizers always have all that available, some don't or can't. If you knew there would be people to help with those things, at a doable price, then it makes it more worthwile even if you don't get a sale right there at the showcase or show.

Laurie@CBF

Jan. 12, 2004, 11:51 AM

Khobstetter, I hope you actually ment to reply to dray (Donna).

I am very interested in regional evaluations. You could send slightly older youngsters - yearlings and two year olds. The jumping chute is key for the H/J market. Even with little/no practice it can tell you A LOT about a youngster. Especially when you look at their canter - which is sooo important for the H/J's. I don't think I have ever seen a breed inspector comment on a foals canter. For me that is THE most important gait that I breed for.

These judges would actually be more linked to buyers in the US than the European inspectors that come over. Maybe even a tape could be made for further marketing down the road. Other professionals in the industry would have more respect for these opinions than the breed inspectors.

I disagree that results at our inspections and DAD have high predictive value for the horses future in the show ring. As breeding stock - maybe.

I'll comment on the registries first. In some registries your score is dependant on the individual inspector. One example is a foal of mine that did not score well at an inspection this summer. He went on to DAD and placed 7th in the open weanling class (more than 40 entries - also above two colts that went premium at the SAME inspection), and then two days later placed 8th in the Han 2 and younger class. I know this is a nice horse - so was disappointed in the inspection score.

As far as top placings at DAD helping get youngsters sold as dressage prospects http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I haven't seen it yet. I had a colt who won his weanling colt class (score 80% - out of 38 entries). He had been high score foal of the day at his inspection as well. He was also a half brother to Debbie McDonalds horse "Felix". It was big news when the Thomas's bought the three year old horse for over 200K at Verden a few months before DAD. Do you think that one dressage person was interested in this horse - NO! It was the hunter http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif people that called me because there were a few relatives doing very well in CA in the hunters.

Some registries do not require foal inspections - the AHS and the NAKWPN. Unless I think I have a stallion prospect I would prefer to not take the colts to inspections. Especially for these geldings it would be nice to take them to something like this. I also have a few ET's coming this year - and it would be a lot easier to forego an inspection until the foal was weaned.

I have been breeding for ten years. I used to put much more emphasis on the inspections and young horse classes. I am still learning http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif.

And hey Khobstetter - I would drive all the way to Virginia if you could get Rodney Jenkins to have one is his local area http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif.

Edited to add that I cross posted with a few of you - had I seen the posts I would have just agreed with you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

LLDM

Jan. 12, 2004, 01:22 PM

Hey lorik,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lorik:
You are talking about unrecognized classes here and USEF rules will not allow for unrecgonized classes to be run during a recognized competition. This type of thing would have to be run either the day(s) before or after the recognized competition. In that case, don't you loose your built in audience?
I still love the concept of a young horse show or series of shows, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure I understand. In Virginia we have rated shows who do all sorts of locals, novice & pre-green(all unrated) classes. Even WIHS (Washington International) does special locals' stuff. That is H/J stuff, but it is recognized and under USEF. Did you mean USDF? I was actually thinking more like an Eventing venue (just a thought) since they do most everything anyway.

I really don't want or need another inspection venue. I have to do the Breed org. stuff, or I may as well just give up on registrations all together. And I do value the input I get from the Germans. They know alot that I don't yet. That said, they do NOT know my market (Ami's/JR's) or the Hunters or Eventers.

IMHO - the registries will never accept an alternate inspection system. They each have their own ideas on the type of horse they want. Which is valid, since they started it. I respect that and agree to participate if I want my foals registered with them. If I want to do it as a US warmblood, there are registries for that too.

I think enough of my babies to put them up in front of all comers and let them speak for themselves as it were. I am happy to put my Old. & Han. against any young horse in the classes they will do well in. Hence the "Prospects Show". But I am very concerned they not be asked to do more than their slow growing bodies and brains can handle. I want them happy and healthy for a long, long time.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

lorik

Jan. 12, 2004, 03:17 PM

LLDM,
This was explained to me by a TD (dressage). I'm in the process of converting to a new computer and haven't figured out the pdf formating yet. I'll research and get back to you. USDF does not really make the rules. They suggest things to USEF who actually is responsible for the rules we all play by. If I can get the rule book up and running, I'll look for the rule. Alternatively, I'll contact said TD and ask for clarification.
Lori

LLDM

Jan. 12, 2004, 03:23 PM

Thanks lorik, I'm really curious now. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Maybe it is just a Dressage thing. They are so organized, unlike the H/J folks. The eventers are organized and chaotic simultaniously, so I though they might not mind... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 13, 2004, 04:51 AM

Knobstetter and Laurie -

Rankings wouldn't be important in this type of show ... because, as I see it, you would not be COMPETING. It is for evaluation only, that's why you could solicit a BNT or judge.

Does that make sense? I'm thinking several areas, gaits, temperament, jumping form, ... willingness or work ethic ... I don't know, just throwing ideas out there. Also a space for Suggestions. Maybe one could supply a copy of the pedigree with the entry for the ones not under saddle?

I'm thinking almost a clinic-type atmosphere ...

And like a dressage test, you'd have a rating and a comment.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

lorik

Jan. 13, 2004, 09:07 AM

LLDM,
USEF Article 301.3 states
All classes (rated or unrated) to be held on a U.S. Equestrian recognized date must be recognized by the Federation and are governed by all applicable Federation rules. No unrecognized classes can be held on any U.S. Equestrian recognized date, except that: a) levels of Horse Trials (Eventing Competitions) below the Preliminary Level, Combined Tests (Eventing Competitions) at all levels and levels of Combined Driving below the Advanced Level, b) classes for draft horses, c) classes for miniature horses, d) levels of Vaulting for which the Federation does not have division rules, and e) classes recognized by a national breed or discipline association and for which the Federation does not have division rules, can be unrecognized, only provided a separate entry blank is ussed and the prize list and/or Omnibus clearly states that the classes are not recognized by the Federation. See Art. 211.
Art.211 Agreement. All applications for Federation recognition are accepted with the explicit agreement of competition officials that all classes (rated or unrated) to be held on a U.S. Equestrian recognized date must be recognized by the Federation and are governed by all applicable Federation rules, and that no unrecognized classes will be held on any date for which Federation recognition is requested, except that: (and then it states the same verbage as Art. 301.3.
Since the 'classes' we're talking about are not recognized by a national breed or discipline association, I don't see how they could be run during a recognized competition. Before or after, but not during.
Sorry it took so long to find this. I'm in the middle of computer trauma.
Lori

lorik

Jan. 13, 2004, 09:12 AM

That having been said, you could run unrecognized low level combined training or combined driving in conjunction with a BN combined training or combined driving event. The problem with that (looking just at the CCI's and CDE's I've worked at) is that there is barely enough time in the day or volunteers to get the BN's through without trying to run an unrecognized event simultaneously.
Not that it can't be done, it would just take a LOT of effort.

Cospi

Jan. 13, 2004, 11:22 AM

Under eventing in the USEF rulebook there is a recognized compeition for 4 and 5 year old horses called the Young Event Horse Test. The test involves a short dressage test (40%), jumping in an arena 6 or 7 fences -up to 3'6" for 4 year olds and 3'9" for 5 year olds- (40%) and a final judging of horses shown in hand for conformation, suitability and presence (20%). The same competitior must ride and show the horse throughout the test. It is only open to 4 or 5 year old horses that have never shown at Preliminary or above.
I actually quite like this idea, and I wish events would hold more of these classes, so we could see the up and coming horses showcased. That is just MHO though. I know eventing in particular is looking for ways to bring in more spectators to their big events, why not use this class as a way to showcase young horses in front of the right BNR/T as well as making it a spectator draw? Like the trade fairs and dog agility tests. Just a thought.

khobstetter

Jan. 13, 2004, 11:45 AM

cospi..

I LOVE the Young Horse classes for the horses I have consistently in training...

I COMPLETELY disagree with the 4 year olds having to jump 3'6" !!!!!!! PLUS since they are a part of the "A" shows there are HUGE costs to those classes AND unless your horse has had 3-6 months professional training, you can't be the winner or have your horse show well...

The problem for the breeders, and hense the title of this thread, is that they don't have a training process for the young horses in order to get them to the "A" shows where those classes are...let alone the HUGE costs of showing one there.

I am working on a process where those costs are not so high.

I am currently in conversation with a California show manager who is working with me through the feasiblity of using their Monday (the day before the Breeding classes) to set up a venue for the breeders to bring the young stock for evaluation. His shows go all year and I would hope to set up something at a July show to try this the first time...

If we can get this set up, the young horses can come for a couple of days and be at the shows where trainers will drop by to see whats there and watch them work. Plus the breeders can stay a day or two and hack the babies on the grounds and trainers can see them again.

We are figuring ADVERTISING with a capital ADVERTISING to properly expose those horses and the process.

I can assure you that we are really working HARD to try to get the young horses to the buying public...

YOU NEED TO SELL.....AND WE NEED TO BUY!!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

chronic

Jan. 15, 2004, 05:15 AM

If you REALLY want to have a centralized one, you need to do this exact same thing with multiple judges and diciplines, but put it on a CD or video - HAve breeeders send in standard footage - send out an example of what is required for evaluation - you pay X number of dollars for each separate judge to watch your tape and evaluate it. THen those comments are written and you have a searchable CD or DVD with all the info, footage of movemnt conformation, jumping, undersaddle whatever - then those DVD's are accessible to buyers ALL OVER to watch, and evaluate numerous prospects. Even with regional events, you will not get the quantity of buyers & sellers & evaluaters in the same place at the same time. This could be so great if done remotely. People could STILL host video "parties" that way if you don't have the facitlities you can find one. And, If your horse has a bad day, you just do another tape when you're ready. Each year a dvd could be avaialbe to anyone interested, and they can contact any specific owner when they are really ready to buy or look. I hate to be a pessimist, but I just don't think making poeple drag their horses somewhere is going to do it nor is it going to draw in the buyers. You're on the right track - just add some technology and then I think you REALLY have something.

dray

Jan. 15, 2004, 05:34 AM

That's a major benefit of NASHBA.

We offer a DVD of the young horses for sale by members, listing on the web site, etc.

Donna Ray
North Amderican Breeders Association
www.nashba.com (http://www.nashba.com)

chronic

Jan. 15, 2004, 05:49 AM

Yes, but are they standardized and evaluated with professionals or "BNT/R's"? It is one thing to throw a bunch of horses on a dvd, its another thing to be able to evaluate them on an even scale e.g right side conformation on level concrete for 1 minute, left side... trotting 100' on level concrete toward and away from the camera, jumping through a shoot with standard distances and fence heights. You can select to watch each one of these, then look at the pedigree, then look at what judge X (dressage expert) judge Y (jumper rider), juudge Z (top breeder in that registry?) have to say on the about the horse. Select another section and see the veterinary report, Select another section and see the owner's comments. Poor quality tapes that a pro could not evaluate would not be accepted. Make these DVDs available at every recognized show in the show offices or available upon request. It would not be a minor undertaking but once it got going, I think it would take off. This I would pay decent money for to get my horse in, I would not spend the money to just send in any video or drag a horse half way across the country for "tire kickers"

khobstetter

Jan. 15, 2004, 07:22 AM

I have started different thread about somepossibilities....

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

danskbreeder

Jan. 15, 2004, 07:43 PM

I'm sorry but in my experience as a breeder dealing with hunter folks when wa the last time anyone remembers a BNT evn looking at a young horse much less judging one? In my experience BNT's tend to look at and for made horses.

dray

Jan. 15, 2004, 08:13 PM

snicker...

dray

Jan. 15, 2004, 08:14 PM

seriously, I thought they were supposed to be plowing for strength development

khobstetter

Jan. 16, 2004, 04:46 PM

The answer to tat is.......this past spring.

I sold one for $75,000 that was a 4 year old, just broke (bay with white socks by Lavall)...one for $15,000 that was a 3 year old NOT broke (tall, plain brown by Alcatraz)....one for $20,000, a Caretino yearling to Virginia...and so on.

Don't confuse the inability to FIND buyers with there not being any out there!!!

"They" do want to buy young horses!!!!!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

pwynnnorman

Jan. 17, 2004, 03:42 PM

Hate to be a spoil sport on the regional inspection thing, but I have said something similar before, so I may as well say it again:

WHY do you need someone else to tell you whether you've produced a decent animal? If you are a breeder, aren't you getting out there, educating yourself at the shows, ringside and back in the barns, so you have an eye for what your industry wants?

There's no way I'd pay $200 for someone to tell me what, being seriously in the business, I really should already know! And I wonder if that's part of the trainer/breeder problem: too many breeders wasting trainers time with stuff the breeders should know aren't what the trainers want.

Yeah, I get frustrated by the hunter world's "if it ain't a machine, it's too green" attitude and the event world's "make it, don't buy it" preference, but in spite of my frustration, I have to accept those facts and deal with them. My program isn't yet producing A3 movement consistently--I know it, I openly admit it and I'm trying to improve it...and I'm not about to waste any trainer's time if he/she wants a hack winner and I haven't got one.

If I did try this, how likely do you suppose it would be that the next time I had something, that trainer would have any respect for what I said? Zilch.

ACtually, on the practical and administrative side, I think one huge yet simple problem many breeders have is the inability to produce a really nice videotape...

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

PaintBy#s

Jan. 17, 2004, 03:50 PM

Pwynnnorman- keep rolling with the Videotape/DVD...

I posted a (in my opinion) good idea of Khobsetters thread...maybe it got lost amongst the arguements.

Should we start a new thread?

Representing RobbyJ and Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliot: NOTE: This is not reflecting my views! I just about spit out my soda when Robby posted this! (hence why its in the sig line)

"When I walk up in the piece, I ain't even gotta speak, I'm a bad muthaf&C#a, godd&&m^t you ain't gotta like me."

back to the basics

Jan. 17, 2004, 04:53 PM

Hi there,
I am new here and a friend of mine told me about this forum.
If I may give you my opinion about finding the right trainer! The right trainer is one that takes you and your horse as an individual. A trainer that takes the time to sit down with you and talk about what you would like to see happen with your horse, is one always worth looking at twice! Fact of the matter is, that just because a trainer does not have 20 horses to ride every day, does not mean he/she is a bad one. Quality not quantity! Watch the trainer ride, more then one horse. From the time he or she tacks up the horse , until he/she puts the horse back up. If the trainer speaks to you and shows you a few of his or her other "students" and not only tells you about there latest show accomplishments, but also a bit about the horses character and maybe even takes the time to open the stall door to rub the horses forehead, then you might be on to something.The best trainers are the once that never had to "learn" to ride with feeling!The once that want to bring the best out of every horse, whatever riding style or riding level that may be! What more could one asked for! QUOTE]Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Yeah, the trainer is the problem.

Any suggestions about finding the right one? Any criteria to ask about or attributes to consider?

__It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)__
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
[/QUOTE]

Love what you do and do what you love!

LLDM

Jan. 17, 2004, 06:27 PM

Hi there back, Back to Basics! Thanks for the bump.

Just so you know, this is the breeders forum and you have stumbled into the middle of a long ongoing discussion (through many threads) on some issues regarding the starting/backing of young sporthorse prospects.

The issue is not "recognizing the right trainer when we do find them" it's more like "we don't have a system to find, acknowledge and reward good trainers who specialize in starting and bringing along prospects." It is predicated on the notion that trainers who show alot or work primarily with human students aren't necessarily the best with our youngsters (since we are breeders, we tend to have a bunch of youngsters). And also, it bemoans the fact that these trainers get very little recognition, even though they can be very, very good with prospects.

I can assure you that we do seek trainers for our "babies," meaning 3 to 4 year olds, who have just the qualities you describe. In addition, we want them to be well versed in the issues particular to the physical and mental health of horses who are still growing and changing at a pretty good clip! Only the best for our kids!

In any case, welcome to CoTH! Thanks for your perspective. It always helps to have someone remind us of the most important things. We do tend to wander around some.

SCFarm (who is not too far away from your neighborhood)

Mostly Harmless

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 17, 2004, 06:57 PM

Well, an overall comment here, as I was the one that started the thread.

First, hasn't this been an interesting discussion, with development(s) one way, then another. Everyone is pitching in with his or her point of view, expanding and sometimes changing the issue, but always exploring. I think this is just great. Some have a lot of experience and some, like me, have a passion but don't know quite what to do, where to go or even what they've got. Learning takes place when those in the know ... those with experience ... share and advise those with less knowledge. Again, to all, many thanks.

Knobstetter at my stage in this business selling a 4 year old for $75K would make my head spin. Congratulations. I hope you consider this a success. And maybe this is part of the issue. Maybe the whole issue is wrapped up in your post.

Let's take your $75K horse as a case study. Two questions immediately come to mind. Here are the questions: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>

1. Did you breed the $75k kid? If so, did you know ... or at what point did you know ... you had a "high roller" on your hands. Was it breed shows? Did you do the breed show route? Was it your own knowledge? Please advise how you evaluated/priced him, ASIDE from the obvious, "whatever the market would pay."

2. What did the balance sheet look like for this horse? Did you put $100K into him in order that you could sell him for $75? What did your profit margin look like on him? (Or her for that matter.) [/list]

These may be questions that are, quite frankly, nobody's business but yours. If that is the case, please excuse the probing.

If they are not, I would love to hear your comments about how you evaluated, worked, and marketed him.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[This message was edited by Oldenburg Mom on Jan. 17, 2004 at 11:04 PM.]

[This message was edited by Oldenburg Mom on Jan. 17, 2004 at 11:08 PM.]

eurofoal

Jan. 17, 2004, 08:02 PM

Regarding the 75K horse-- how much did the breeder get for him, and when?

Jill
www.eurofoal.com (http://www.eurofoal.com)
European bloodlines made in America

back to the basics

Jan. 18, 2004, 06:42 AM

Good morning,
sorry I was way behind the new topic! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
I just got here from Germany and kind of butted in!But one thing, that you guys do have over here, that I wish we had more of in Germany, is Pastures! My god, that is something that is hard to come by in Germany. It is so importent for the youngsters to grow up in a herd and on biiiigggg pastures, that makes for a good head on their shoulders and strong bones! I will look in every ones in a while, and I hope I do not offend anybody, if I respond to something a bit "behind the topic"! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
It is so much fun! And if you should ever need to, I know a couple of breeders around here( I am working for one) that maybe able to let you know who they are using and share some of there experience with you!
And you are not to far away from my neighborhood? How cool is that? Small world, then you may already know the breeders I am talking about, who knows, you may know me! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Originally posted by LLDM:
Hi there back, Back to Basics! Thanks for the bump.

Just so you know, this is the breeders forum and you have stumbled into the middle of a long ongoing discussion (through many threads) on some issues regarding the starting/backing of young sporthorse prospects.

The issue is not "recognizing the right trainer when we do find them" it's more like "we don't have a _system_ to find, acknowledge and reward good trainers who specialize in starting and bringing along prospects." It is predicated on the notion that trainers who show alot or work primarily with human students aren't necessarily the best with our youngsters (since we are breeders, we tend to have a bunch of youngsters). And also, it bemoans the fact that these trainers get very little recognition, even though they can be very, very good with prospects.

I can assure you that we do seek trainers for our "babies," meaning 3 to 4 year olds, who have just the qualities you describe. In addition, we want them to be well versed in the issues particular to the physical and mental health of horses who are still growing and changing at a pretty good clip! Only the best for our kids!

In any case, welcome to CoTH! Thanks for your perspective. It always helps to have someone remind us of the most important things. We do tend to wander around some.

SCFarm (who is not too far away from your neighborhood)

Mostly Harmless[/QUOTE]

Love what you do and do what you love!

Janet

Jan. 19, 2004, 07:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lorik:
You are talking about unrecognized classes here and USEF rules will not allow for unrecgonized classes to be run during a recognized competition. This type of thing would have to be run either the day(s) before or after the recognized competition. In that case, don't you loose your built in audience?
I still love the concept of a young horse show or series of shows, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually. it varies by discipline.

You cannot run any (USEA) unrecognized classes on the same day as a (USEA)recognized HORSE TRIAL (though some divisions may be USEF recognized and others USEF affiliated)(which is why events that have recognized and unrecognized divisions run them on separate days).

But you certainly CAN run unrecognized classes on the same day as recognized hunter, jumper, hunter breeding, and sport horse breeding classes.

I know that someone just recently confirmed this with the USEF office. "As long as you collect the drug fees and the non-member fees, you can run any unrecognized classes you want." in the context of hunter breeding and dressage/sport horse breeding classes.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[This message was edited by Janet on Jan. 19, 2004 at 03:04 PM.]

LLDM

Jan. 19, 2004, 08:46 AM

Thanks for the info Janet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SCfarm

Mostly Harmless

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 19, 2004, 10:39 AM

Knobstetter ....

Am dying to get some feedback, unless it's too personal.

Please advise, as this is a shameless bump.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

lorik

Jan. 19, 2004, 11:01 AM

Janet,
I had actually posted the article(s) from the rule book about the middle of page 9 of this thread. It's interesting though, that USEF is advocating breaking one of their own rules. Go figure. In the interest of CYA I would suggest that before anyone schedules anything like this they talk to the TD who will be officiating at the show.

Janet

Jan. 19, 2004, 12:01 PM

Yes, I saw the rules quote you posted.

I guess it is a question of wnat they mean by "unrecognized."

In the one exception they cited that I am familar with (USEA HT at BN, N and T that are "affiliated" but not "recognized", run on the same day as P and above that ARE recognized), the competitors in the "unrecognized" divisions are exwmpt from the USEF membership rules.

So it MAY be that, if the competitors are required to be members or pay the non-member fee, that the classes are considered to be "recognized", even if they don't correspond to anything in the rule book.

At hunter show, they run all sorts of classes that don't appear in the rule book, but they ARE required to be USEF members or pay the non-member fee. That tends to support my conjecture.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

khobstetter

Jan. 19, 2004, 01:41 PM

Oldenburg mom..

Can't comment on the $75k one here except to say the owner who I sold it for only had about $26,000 in it..they did JUST fine..

However, I can comment on the $60K cause they are ok with it as no one will EVER figure out who it was...

Horse was bought in Germany for $12,000 ..shipped to the states for another $6,500...Almost a years board and training at another $10,000, other costs $2,000... and 2 shows (training hunter classes) for about $3,500.00.. for a total of about $34,000 in it...SOLD $60,000.

Another gelding bought a couple of years ago...price was $14,000 at a dressage presentation in Germany..ship and Davis quarantine at $7,000.... plus 3 months board and training $5,000.... no shows, SOLD and the sale price was about $70,000.

Another mare bought at a dressage barn cause she would not "raise up" for the upper levels..cost $8,000... ship and quarantine $7,000..6 months board and training $6,000..SOLD for $40,000.

Another ..cost $7,000..ship and quarantine $5,000....3 months board and training $3,000..SOLD for $22,000.

Another..cost $15,000..ship and quarantine $5,000...7 months board and training $7,000...3 shows $5,000...SOLD for $40,000.

Another...COST $30,000..ship and quarantine $7,000..years board and training $10,000...no shows at owners cost (leased to a kid)..SOLD $68,000.

When did I "know".....just about the minute I saw them I pretty much "knew" they were good horses. The problem is then getting someone to buy them and keep them knowing something could absolutely go wrong.

THAT is a huge risk.

I obviously do NOT go buy them at the Breeding classes or shows as they are usually WAY to expensive for the investors I deal with. I try to buy "safe" and don't "plan" on selling for big $$...I am just really excited for my owners when that happens.

I have ALOT of respect for the trainers who buy the breeding stock and do REALLY WELL with the sale $$$, BUT my people are just not there...I am not comfortable with paying big money and taking the risk. I would be devestated if they lost their shirts.

There are obviously some I see that I absolutely "KNOW" the minute they walk in the ring....then I am lucky to be there at the right time..

I also sell ALOT of sale horses where we only make $5,000 to $10,000 profit BUT for my owners..that is still super money.

My problem, from the breeders point of view...is that the young horse (the "raw product") has to have ALL of it to be worth money.

I do not have time or interest to breed young horses BUT I do LOVE the care and training of them as they get ready to go to the ring..

LET ME ALSO ADD...there have been a few times where a horse was sent to me from a breeder and I had to bear the bad news that it just was not worth too much...some of the breeders have been great receiving the information and some have not been!

I, along with most trainers...simply DO NOT want to get the "nasty mouth" because someone has bred an inferior horse and they expect me to say OH LALA.

I work with a couple of breeders here who understand and accept the sad part...I also send some young ones out for a second opinion if I feel there is a chance I am wrong....haven't been so far BUT I always watch out for my own "blindness".

For me...buying the stock I love for my clients has worked best.....

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org