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Treasmare2
Apr. 11, 2011, 07:01 AM
What would be the usual lease fee for a safe 3'6 hunter? Keep in mind the leaser may not use the horse for the 3'6 ring. If that is the case does the horse automatically lease for a lesser fee or is that simply a matter of leaser choice? Horse is actually at its best in the 3'6 ring and is not as brillent in the lower levels.

Big_Grey_hunter
Apr. 11, 2011, 07:15 AM
1/3 of purchase fee. It doesn't matter what the horse is being used for. If the lease is month by month, divide the 1/3 by 12.

1/3 of purchase fee can range from 5K-100K, so it's not really possible to say a price without seeing the horse move and jump, or at least know more about it.

supershorty628
Apr. 11, 2011, 09:02 AM
Whether the leasee intends to show in the 3'6'' or not should not affect the lease price. The horse is a 3'6'' horse. You are paying to lease a horse with that capability. What you do with it is your concern, but it's not going to change the price.

meupatdoes
Apr. 11, 2011, 09:08 AM
I'd like to have a Porsche Turbo, but since I'm only going to drive it on Sundays to go to the grocery store and back, can I have it for $10,000?
:lol:

Treasmare2
Apr. 11, 2011, 09:33 AM
Thank you guys. The porche reference hit home.:lol: I need to stay centered on what the horse is that I am providing to someone else.

STA
Apr. 11, 2011, 12:07 PM
I'd like to have a Porsche Turbo, but since I'm only going to drive it on Sundays to go to the grocery store and back, can I have it for $10,000?
:lol:

EXCELLENT answer!!!!!

sansibar
Apr. 11, 2011, 12:14 PM
Actually I was looking at leases and some horses I saw had different prices for different heights of competition :S, most were eq horses though.

Personally I think if you pay to lease the horse it should be the same for all heights.

Stoney447
Apr. 11, 2011, 12:30 PM
Actually I was looking at leases and some horses I saw had different prices for different heights of competition :S, most were eq horses though.

Personally I think if you pay to lease the horse it should be the same for all heights.

At my old barn there were very nice horses that were sometimes leased out for series like WEF that varied in price by who was doing the leasing. If the horse was going to be shown division-appropriate for the horse and by someone who could give the horse some exposure (usually by riding with a BNT) there was often a reduction in the lease price. This was the case to encourage talent to lease the horse, since several of these leases led to sales. However, at least this last year, a couple were leased to people who desired to show them below their max division (Adult Amateur Hunters instead of A/O Hunters) in a situation where the horse was going to be used for confidence building and helping the rider and in these situations the standard 1/3 of the purchase price was in force.

Of course all horses leased were required to have insurance ect...

STA
Apr. 11, 2011, 12:35 PM
"a couple were leased to people who desired to show them below their max division (Adult Amateur Hunters instead of A/O Hunters)"
Stoney447 you can't (legally) lease an A/O horse.

findeight
Apr. 11, 2011, 12:42 PM
"a couple were leased to people who desired to show them below their max division (Adult Amateur Hunters instead of A/O Hunters)"
Stoney447 you can't (legally) lease an A/O horse.

Yes you can, an A/O horse CAN be leased to show in the Adults where leases are allowed.

fordtraktor
Apr. 11, 2011, 01:04 PM
"a couple were leased to people who desired to show them below their max division (Adult Amateur Hunters instead of A/O Hunters)"
Stoney447 you can't (legally) lease an A/O horse.

In addition to f8's point, an AO horse can be leased as a Junior Hunter, same specs, no owner requirement.

gholem
Apr. 11, 2011, 01:23 PM
I'd like to have a Porsche Turbo, but since I'm only going to drive it on Sundays to go to the grocery store and back, can I have it for $10,000?
:lol:
To add a further wrinkle to the analogy though: # miles driven do in fact matter when leasing out a car. Every mile driven depreciates the value of the car which you would want to factor into the price of the lease.

STA
Apr. 11, 2011, 02:03 PM
A horse shown in the A/O's can be leased, but you cannot lease an Amatuer Owner horse. You have to own the horse, not lease it.
The misunderstanding is the manner I wrote the sentence, sorry. I thought the OP was stating a rider can lease a horse and show it in the A/O's.

mrsbradbury
Apr. 11, 2011, 02:17 PM
As others have stated 1/3 the purchase price is standard, and you can stipulate whatever restrictions you like for the lease. For example; I lease a horse for my program that was competitive in the A/O jumpers and big eq, but he is no longer suitable for those divivions having been a complicated ride and has maintenance issues. We use him for the 2'6".

With that being said, I do not pay the value of a big eq/ big jumper for this horse.

I would come up with a number you a comfortable sending your horse out with and take it from there. The fees and prices are always relative to what the other party is willing to pay regardless of market value.

The other consideration is how legitimate is your 3'6" horse. Can he be ridden by someone who is really at a lower level. Some of mine, like the horse above actually is easy at the lower level and adapts to his rider, and doesn't require a lot of schooling or prep.
I have a couple others who are legitimate, they jump 2'6", like it's 3'3", have huge lofty strides and crack thier backs; they do the lower levels with their owners, but right now it's a push because they are a lot of horse. The take a lot of wear and tear right now until their owners catch up the horse's ability. I know thier jobs will be easy once their owners are ready for the horse's natural division. So, what I'm getting at is? Are you stipulating the horse is uner 3'6" to save him, or are the interested parties interested in him because he's nice and they are jumping lower than he is capable?

Treasmare2
Apr. 11, 2011, 02:46 PM
What I am saying is he has been shown in the A/O division and the greens and he is a ligit 3'6 horse that would be ready to carry a junior around. The folks who may have some interest of leasing him would not be using him as a junior horse but as a children's horse.
As a 3'6 horse he has a value attached to that but if they want him for children's his 3'6 ability it is of little value to them. It would mean nothing to them that he can do 3'6 (and is better at 3'6). My thought is the cost of a children's hunter tends to be less than a junior hunter. He also does all the tests and has the soft jump that would make him a useful eq/medal horse as well. So I may be asked by them to lease him for less and my thinking is I should not change that because it is their choice what they do with him.
Also from my stand point my 3'6 horse will lose his 3'6 value as a result of not going in that division....he would become a 3 ft horse based on show record. I am thinking when this lease ends and I go to sell or release do I have a horse to lease that has not shown himself to be a 3'6 in the previous year? Complicated but I hope I am making my point is a muddy sort of way?

findeight
Apr. 11, 2011, 03:12 PM
That used to be true but these days? If a 3'6"er spent a season plodding around in the 3' because that is who wanted to lease him? I doubt it would lower your price point too much...especially if you tune him back up with a show or two at 3'6" before you release or offer him for sale.

But NO WAY I would lower the lease fee just because they don't want to show 3'6". He is what he is-a 3'6" horse. His value reflects his training and experience regardless of what they want him for.

I would be careful to be sure the kid is competent though. IME 3'6"and up horses have a different kind of jump and alot more step-they can intimidate a rider even over lower fences...I had one scare the crap out of me, like going over the falls in a barrel over the top of everything-he jumped HARD and really wrapped around his fences, even at 2'6".

Last thing you need is a timid rider riding him all season...for that they should pay you double.

benni
Apr. 11, 2011, 03:15 PM
Lease fee is usually 1/3 to 1/2 the purchase price. It used to be 1/3, but now with fewer sales it can be as high as half the price when their value is 30k or less. These are variable!

Linny
Apr. 11, 2011, 03:35 PM
At my old barn there were very nice horses that were sometimes leased out for series like WEF that varied in price by who was doing the leasing. If the horse was going to be shown division-appropriate for the horse and by someone who could give the horse some exposure (usually by riding with a BNT) there was often a reduction in the lease price. This was the case to encourage talent to lease the horse, since several of these leases led to sales. However, at least this last year, a couple were leased to people who desired to show them below their max division (Adult Amateur Hunters instead of A/O Hunters) in a situation where the horse was going to be used for confidence building and helping the rider and in these situations the standard 1/3 of the purchase price was in force.

Of course all horses leased were required to have insurance ect...

You can't show a leased horse in A/O's so leasing an A/O horse is always a conundrum. he is a true 3'6 horse but the leasee CAN'T show him at his preferred height so charging "extra" because he won't be getting 3'6 exposure is somewhat unfair.
That said, a 1/3 of the current value (what you could legitimately expect to sell him for) is standard and anything in that vicinity would be legit.

chi.adult.hunter
Apr. 11, 2011, 03:41 PM
It sounds like, from your perspective, that you will get very little benefit to the horse's 3 foot 'downgrade.' However, I think you're not giving enough weight to some other benefits you might receive:

(1) Do you have other viable lessee options? ("A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...")

(2) As far a horse preservation goes, a year campaigning at 3' might not be as physically difficult on the horse as a year at 3'6".

(3) How much do you trust their program (or the programs of your other options)? Your horse is still doing the greens (or just finished). A questionable program could destroy your young 3'6" horse (mentally or physically). A good program (or possibly the a questionable program, but at 3') would be a safer bet.

All of that being said, if you weigh the specific benefits and drawbacks and you STILL don't think the 'pros' to this type of lease warrant a discounted lease rate (plus the 'cons' you listed in your last post), then don't drop your price!

However, from the lessee's perspective, I can certainly see why they may come back to you with a lower offer. If you don't budge, don't be surprised if they walk away.

Linny
Apr. 11, 2011, 03:41 PM
I hadn't seen that the rider in this case is a Jr.

I wouldn't lower the price to that of a 3' horse because she wants to do childens, not juniors. If you were selling him would you drop the price for a 3'0 buyer? No! His value is still the same.
It would be like selling a GP jumper (or Derby hunter) to me for the price of a 2'9/3' horse because thats all I'd require of him!;)

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 11, 2011, 03:51 PM
IMO, if the buyers are taking the time to look at a 3'6" horse to lease for the 3' divisions, they're likely to be able to afford the cost of a lease for a 3'6" horse.

Stoney447
Apr. 11, 2011, 04:10 PM
I am aware of the fact that you cannot show a leased horse in the A/O's, however with the advent of Performance Working Hunter these horses can still be shown at appropriate height while on lease regardless of green eligibility. Furthermore, as was pointed out by another poster, there is no ownership restriction on Junior Hunter at 3'6". Again, one year one of the leases out of this barn had shown at two shows in the A/O before Sep 1 with, obviously, its owner the year previous. USEF granted a Green status reinstatement and the horse was leased (and eventually bought by person who leased) and shown in the greens at 3'6". All of the cases of horses that I personally have refered to in response to the OP's post have been sale horses in the 6 figure department that the owner decided to lease for exposure (for sale) at WEF and other series. Perhaps this is not the case of the OP, but it was not specified at the time of my previous post.

http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2011/16-HU.pdf
In case anyone needs a reference to the fact that there are more 3'6" divisions than just A/O.

Apparently semantics were at play here (and I didn't feel, honestly, that I would need to spell that out and be a walking rule book quoter here :rolleyes:), since I meant that these horses were A/O horses with their owners, but were being sold as 3'6" horses. Since the goal was selling for their value and getting them seen, the owners wanted them to be shown at 3'6" (potentially demonstrating their future use as open hunters or A/O horses with a new owner once bought) by someone who could do so successfully and as such cut the lease price (2 to juniors in the past, and once in the case of the reinstated green horse).

So how this ties in to my posting in regards to the OP's question is: The only case that I have seen a reduction in lease price is in the cases I have described above. While showing these horses below their divisions may not affect their price in the short term, they are also not getting as much exposure to the crowd that you are marketing toward and as such, paid the going lease price in these cases. If you are looking to sell that might be a consideration, if not I would assess your future goals with this horse and determine if it is worth it to you to lease under your horse's worth.

Ravencrest_Camp
Apr. 11, 2011, 10:14 PM
Lease fee is usually 1/3 to 1/2 the purchase price. It used to be 1/3, but now with fewer sales it can be as high as half the price when their value is 30k or less. These are variable!

I am sorry, but that is just insanity. :cry:

Can you imagine anyone, in any other situation, paying 1/2 ( or even 1/3 for that matter) the value of an asset to be able to use it for one year?

When will the craziness top. :confused:

Spartacus
Apr. 11, 2011, 10:30 PM
I know an 18 year old hunter/eq horse who was leased for 3 months, for 20K. And he was not a big eq horse, just a nice medal horse. Mom and Dad just wanted their daughter to be successful and safe for the summer show season....and the horse was/is a point-and-shoot.

Linny
Apr. 11, 2011, 10:34 PM
Considering how volatile an asset a horse can be and how short a high performance career can be 1/3 is OK, but I'd think that 1/4 would be more legit. While I know how expensive it is to buy and support and train a horse up to a "certain" level, getting 1/2 of it's present value back for a one year lease seems very high.
I wish I could lease out my new car for 1/2 it's value for one year with the stipulation that it come back to me in present condition.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 11, 2011, 10:41 PM
That's the thing, though. It NEVER comes back in it's current condition. Simply because it's an animal that's aging, and that will always be negatively affected by the demands of training/showing. Think about it- if you leased your car out for a year with 20,000 miles on it, and it came back in exactly the "same" condition, but with 100,000 miles on it, it's worth significantly less than it was when it left your care. You can't turn back the odometer. Same thing with the horse, except that with the horse, you also take on the risk of a minor "fender bender" becoming a very expensive vehicle on blocks in your yard.

Rel6
Apr. 11, 2011, 10:44 PM
I know an 18 year old hunter/eq horse who was leased for 3 months, for 20K. And he was not a big eq horse, just a nice medal horse. Mom and Dad just wanted their daughter to be successful and safe for the summer show season....and the horse was/is a point-and-shoot.


$6,666 A MONTH?! Why do I find this hard to believe...I leased a very nice point and shoot 3'6'' jumper and she was only 2k a month. Point and shoot fancy junior hunters might go for 3.5k a month...

mrsbradbury
Apr. 11, 2011, 10:48 PM
Back to OP, in your case I would not adjust the lease price for your horse. Unfortunately I cannot advise you on a range to ask for your horse. I would be investigating their program however, and how they prep their horses. As I stated, as as Findeight was adding to; the process to dumb down a legit 3'6" can put a lot of wear and tear on him.

I do not feel that a year or two packing a kid around the 3' will hurt his value any, mileage is mileage under a good team and you could always tune him back up. There are many horses that do the bigger divisions with a pro, as well as the c/a with their owners, and they do just fine.

I hope everything works out for you.

ExJumper
Apr. 12, 2011, 12:03 AM
Just wanted to add that a month-to-month isn't necessarily 1/3 the price divided by 12. You pay a premium for the time of year that you want the horse. If you want it during the peak show season and don't want to have to pay for it during the off season you would expect to pay (or charge) a premium.

Big_Grey_hunter
Apr. 12, 2011, 12:26 AM
Just wanted to add that a month-to-month isn't necessarily 1/3 the price divided by 12. You pay a premium for the time of year that you want the horse. If you want it during the peak show season and don't want to have to pay for it during the off season you would expect to pay (or charge) a premium.

good point!

meupatdoes
Apr. 12, 2011, 09:30 AM
IMO, if the buyers are taking the time to look at a 3'6" horse to lease for the 3' divisions, they're likely to be able to afford the cost of a lease for a 3'6" horse.

Plenty of buyers "take the time" to look at a horse without doing ANY research whatsoever into what it is supposed to be costing or they even come pick up the horse to ride it at their place down the road and then look at the owner with pancake eyes when the owner says, "Well, before you take this horse with you we should work out how much the eventual lease price would be," because as it turns out they were under the impression this whole time that this horse would be free and they had no thoughts of paying a cent.

Whether they are really that clueless or just playing dumb so they can get a couple lessons on a nice horse is still something I wonder.

Trixie
Apr. 12, 2011, 10:03 AM
$6,666 A MONTH?! Why do I find this hard to believe...I leased a very nice point and shoot 3'6'' jumper and she was only 2k a month. Point and shoot fancy junior hunters might go for 3.5k a month...

I don't find it hard to believe any more than I find paying 6-figures for a small pony hard to believe. I went to school with a child whose parents paid more for her 12.2 hh wonder than my parents paid for their HOUSE. And my parents have a nice house!

The child in question probably only got two years out of that pony. I imagine that they sold the pony for the same or more, but it also could have dropped dead or become useless at any point. It was insured, sure, but still.

Whether or not it's a financially sound investment, well, that's up to the individual, I guess. Given that I don't consider anything with horses to be financially sound, I won't make an investment in this industry that I can't afford to lose.

In this case? It's a 3'6" horse and should be priced based on that, not based on their plans for it. The mitigating factor would be if you needed to lease the horse to this particular person, for whatever reason.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 12, 2011, 10:08 AM
Plenty of buyers "take the time" to look at a horse without doing ANY research whatsoever into what it is supposed to be costing or they even come pick up the horse to ride it at their place down the road and then look at the owner with pancake eyes when the owner says, "Well, before you take this horse with you we should work out how much the eventual lease price would be," because as it turns out they were under the impression this whole time that this horse would be free and they had no thoughts of paying a cent.

Whether they are really that clueless or just playing dumb so they can get a couple lessons on a nice horse is still something I wonder.

This hasn't been my experience with buyers/lessees looking at 3'6" horses with the help of a trainer. When I leased my horse out in December (standard lease agreement, approximately 1/3 the purchase price, lessee carries mortality insurance with me listed as beneficiary), everyone that came to see him came with a trainer, and came knowing at least a ballpark of what it was going to cost them for the year. Of course, the OP didn't indicate whether this was the case or not, so perhaps the interested party is looking on their own, or really is clueless. Who knows?

ponies123
Apr. 12, 2011, 10:14 AM
$6,666 A MONTH?! Why do I find this hard to believe...I leased a very nice point and shoot 3'6'' jumper and she was only 2k a month. Point and shoot fancy junior hunters might go for 3.5k a month...

You should hear what some people pay to lease a top horse for a weekend come medal finals.

Jsalem
Apr. 12, 2011, 10:16 AM
While it may sound "ridiculous" to pay 1/3 or even 1/2 the purchase price for a year's lease, you have to consider:

Best Case Scenario: Your horse comes back at the end of the year in excellent condition physically, still sound and in excellent condition training- wise. You lease the horse over and over again.

Worst Case Scenario: You've received a portion of your horse's value for the use of him for one year. Horse comes back wrecked. Either physically or mentally disabled. You, the owner, now pay to rehab or retire your horse.

There are advantages and disadvantages to leasing.

findeight
Apr. 12, 2011, 10:29 AM
If you can afford it, it's not ridiculous. No more then those who chose a Mercedes over a Kia. Not fair to judge those choices.

Far as leasing? You can pay and pay and pay and pay board on a horse sitting in a field or standing in a stall you cannot use any longer for various reasons looking for the perfect situation to sell or lease it into...and then maybe it gets hurt, sick or is unable to be ridden and you pay and pay and pay board for the rest of it's life.

Or you can place it in the best situation available. For those that have financial issues and have to get it out of their wallet at least temporarily? Don't judge the choices based on where you are at the moment as you may find yourself where they are in the future.

Of course, if you have a trust fund and your own place, you are pretty much safe from ever having to make a decision like that. For the other 98% of horse owners, it's a possibility.