PDA

View Full Version : Disgusted!!!



Hilltopfarmva
Apr. 9, 2011, 01:22 PM
Just heard bad news that the 2007 full sibling to one of my fillies, broke down in her last race and was euthanized. Magic Toes was orignally trained by Brown and then was sold to Kuhns. She broke down under the latter trainer. But here is what disgusts me: A woman contacted me on facebook to see if I could help her buy this filly thinking I knew the owner as I now owned the filly's dam and her full sister. After lots of phone calls it turns out Magic Toes was given to Brown. The lady wanted to buy the filly and was told the filly was for sale by one of Browns people. She offered money and Brown told her he wanted to run her one more time and then he would contact her to sell her. He entered her repeatedly and she never got in or the race didn't go. I message the lady a month or so later to see if she ever got Magic Toes, she said she was told the filly shipped to FL to run. I looked her up on Equibase and she was now running under David Kuhns as owner/trainer. WTH!! Why did Brown not call the lady back to say he was willing to sell her the filly to be a show horse? Now she is dead and it is all because of the sad and pathetic, I don't give a damn about a horse trainers at Charles Town. It makes me sick. Sorry to vent and I don't post on here much any more because of all the behind the computer screen know it alls, but I wanted to get this out. Her full sister is not going to race nor be sold as race horseany more, I don't want to subject her to the butchery of the racing industry. And I am a licensed trainer btw.

Frog
Apr. 9, 2011, 02:25 PM
"Her full sister is not going to race nor be sold as race horseany more, I don't want to subject her to the butchery of the racing industry. And I am a licensed trainer btw."

A licensed trainer that doesn't see the business side of things, perhaps.

This guy didn't call about selling the horse for one reason- he didn't want to sell the horse.

It's always a shame when a horse breaks down.

That's about all there is to it, that I can see.

Hilltopfarmva
Apr. 9, 2011, 03:28 PM
He sold the horse. Just not to the woman who wanted her as a show horse. And I do see the business side of racing, just not the butchering end of it, because without horses, then you can't be a trainer now can you?

danceronice
Apr. 9, 2011, 07:30 PM
So he sold the horse to someone else. Unless she had it in writing he was going to sell it to her, they didn't have a contract. Maybe someone offered him (or the owner of record, which is a different person than the trainer in her last start with Brown, so she never ran under his name) better money (did the woman who wanted her offer at least $4500? That's the tag she was running for.) If he has a buyer there with cash in hand who'll take the horse, who's not very profitable, now, is the smart business decision to pass and hope they'll still be there if he calls someone who cold-called him weeks ago and they say sorry, changed my mind?

It's just me, maybe, but I really wouldn't dream of calling total strangers and saying "Hey, can I buy your horse for a totally different purpose than it's serving now, even though you've never advertised it for sale?" If I did that to a race trainer, I'd certainly want to offer the stated 'price tag' if it's a claimer--the tag they're running for.

caffeinated
Apr. 11, 2011, 09:33 AM
hilltop... on this one I feel ya.

There are some people I've met that I swear go out of their way to not do right by the horses.

Whether the owner sold the horse, or whether it was just "good business..." I don't know.

Will leave it there, I guess.

moonriverfarm
Apr. 11, 2011, 02:39 PM
I am with you too hilltop. So what if the buyer wanted the filly for something other than racing? Most racehorses are not going to make a million dollars so why not let her go where she ha a chance to be successful? Except for the greed and the "one more race" mentality she might not be dead. I thank God every day for the trainer at Evangeline who knew my horse was never going to make any money racing and who gave him to me rather than run him into the ground and break him down. It's a ruthless business sometimes.

SwtVixen
Apr. 11, 2011, 03:42 PM
Racing is a business. No one knows if a horse is gong to break down --- there just isnt any way, and certainly when it does happen, fingers cant be pointed saying..."you shouldnt have run the horse". It happens, no ones fault.

I've posted this elsewhere trying to keep perspective... but in the last 10 years of eventing 38 people have DIED. People died, folks, and I dont see protesters standing at the start box saying..."dont do this, you'll die". There are hundreds paralyzed and maimed for life --- with just as many horses lost. It happens.

Racing is its own business, just like eventing, show jumpers, h/j's --- foxhunters........its its own world. I would wonder if people are asking these other professionals to give them their horses when they are ready to retire....... or before something happens to them. I dont know but I doubt anyone is standing at an out-gate asking to be given a horse that doesnt ribbon.

What I notice is folks wanting these tb's ...sometimes for their own horses, but mostly to train and flip. These racing horses have a life, and when they retire there are adoption agencies, CANTER, and other outlets to secure one.
There isnt this butchering or need to call to arms a rally to save racehorses, many times its like a plane crash, the only time you hear about it, not the thousands of good races.

I know of DK, he had a horse I would have liked to personally own, and did send him a message that if he retires the horse to contact me, I was willing to pay the claim -- he decided to continue to run the horse and he is still running only
under a different trainer, it was claimed. As someone said, offer the tag; doesnt mean they'll sell you the horse either.
Sometimes it has nothing to do with the trainer, but the owners.
If you do have a trainers license, then this is redundant to you , but maybe it will help others understand.

Linny
Apr. 11, 2011, 04:03 PM
You also must consider that many times trainers are contacted by someone who says they want the horse but then when called back after the career is over they have changed their minds or gotten married or had kids or lost their job and can't take it on. Trainers that have been burned are less likely to bother. Remember, in racing claims are made almost sight unseen. Horses change hands alot more and alot faster than in the h/j world where you shop for a year and hem and haw. Race trainers haven't the time for that. (Yes, trainers also run horses into the gound thinking that they have a good home waiting, yet what the potential owner wanted was a riding/sport horse, not a pasture puff.)

Also, the horse has an owner too. Maybe the owner made the sale without consulting the trainer?

I do feel bad about what happened to the horse, I always do. Everytme a horse breaks down someone shouts about "greed" but if the horse was running well and in good condition why was it greedy to expect more races out of him? It's no more greedy that to expect one more run from your foxhunter or a few more trips from you show hunter.

Rubyfree
Apr. 11, 2011, 04:18 PM
Well, it's one thing to call an owner or trainer and say "I would like to give this horse a home when they're done running" and rather another entirely to say "I would like to buy this horse of yours now, even though you are not listing her for sale and are not done racing her". Unless your friend was offering magnificent sum, that's sort of a pretentious move.

Who's to say the horse wouldn't have broken down racing "once more" for the old trainer, or that she would have had a pasture accident the first day home with your friend, etc?

Look at it this way: Say you see a horse in a pasture that you think is pretty. You go knock on the door and ask the complete strangers who answer to buy said horse. They tell you they are going to (event/hunt/barrel race/jump) Dobbin a little more but they'll give you a call. A couple of months later, you find out through the grapevine that Dobbin was sold to someone else and consequently had a life-ending injury in the new home.

Would you go posting a thread about what jerks all the parties involved are and proclaim the whole industry is disgusting based on their actions?

I'm not saying there isn't stuff in the racing industry that makes me sick, but the willingness and glee in "outing" every individual who won't sell a horse to an off the track home is also pretty disgusting.

stolen virtue
Apr. 11, 2011, 11:45 PM
Well horses are not my business just my personal pleasure and I'll say it-there is a time to sell a race horse and it is not after they break down, I get it Hilltop, squeezing one more race out of this horse destroyed it. There was a perfectly honest buyer but it was important to race rather than retire sound.

I have a Canter horse and the previous owners did right by him, and for that I am gratefull. He has a family to love him for the rest of his life.

SwtVixen
Apr. 12, 2011, 04:47 AM
SV> as horses arent your business, it might help to understand that no one knows if/when/how a horse breaks down......again, it happens.

Its really not a matter of *squeezing* another race as that horse might have raced for another year, maybe 2 or more
and done well. No one ever knows that either. Racing is what these horses love -- they are bred for it just as jumpers are bred (ask Denny how long his lineage is on his jumping stock).

Its always sad when a horse is injured; but theres no fault to be given here. Just because someone wanted a trainer to *give* them a horse (rather presumptious anyway IMO) doesnt mean since they didnt, they erred -- mentioned above were many reasons why such a request might have been denied.

danceronice
Apr. 12, 2011, 09:47 AM
There's nothing in the mare's race record to indicate she was an accident waiting to happen, either. In fact the chart for her last race just says "bad step", which we all know can happen just walking out to the pasture. It boggles my mind when people assume because a horse breaks down that it was three-legged in the paddock and the trainer said "Aw, run it anyway." Not saying there aren't some bottom-feeders who would, but most trainers do not send horses out they think are likely to go down. For starters, they'd never get jockeys to work for them again (look at the strike staged against Gill horses at Penn--remember if the horse goes down, there's a rider up there who goes with him, who isn't suicidal. Not to mention all the other riders in the race who could get caught in the pileup.) Plus, they don't win any money if they DNF--even if someone's operating on a base profit motive, sending out a horse you know is unsound is bad business as they're not likely to win you any more money than they would standing in the barn.

Pronzini
Apr. 12, 2011, 11:02 AM
The assumption some have that nonracing homes are always better than racing homes is a little interesting coming from this website where there is often some thread about abuse someone witnessed at a show or in a back pasture or by the side of the road. I'm not speaking about the OPs acquaintance specifically but most TB trainers in this Internet day and age have stories about the public contacting them regarding individual horses that somehow come up on their radar. Sometimes its a nice gesture like "let me know if this horse ever needs a home" but often its not. There are people out there with super inflated notions of the value their ownership brings to the table and they want to pay pennies on the dollar for a viable racehorse just to "get him off the track". I dare them to go to Rolex and do the same thing.

Linny
Apr. 12, 2011, 12:29 PM
There is no way to prove or disprove something that didn't happen. There is no way to know if the horse in the OP would have been fine had she left the track.

The assumption that life away from the track is always more risky than at the track is a fallacy. Yes, racing is tough on horses but horses get hurt doing everything. I know of several old horses that have left the track and gotten fatally injured in their stall or turnout. How many event horses are hurt every season? Are there squads of people seeking to rescue horses from Denny and the O'Connors? Why the assumption that eventers are caring horsemen and race trainer are just greedy abusers?

Xctrygirl
Apr. 12, 2011, 02:04 PM
Any of you detractors watched the replay of the race???

Its on Calracing.com for a free registration.

That mare was very game in the short amount of the race that she contested. I half expected to see a horse lollygagging along behind spitting the bit. But not Magic Toes. She was in the one hole and though she broke slow, she dove into the bridle and moved up the rail willingly. And then her official chart had it right, she took one bad step.

One bad step is all it takes in this world and it'd be good if we all could come to acknowledge that fact. With that one bad step the time and energy of MT's exercise riders, groom's, farriers, vets, trainer and owners towards her quality of life was ended. And I am quite sure that we don't honestly believe that everyone of them colluded to push a horse towards an untimely demise.

Back in 2005 at Delaware Park's closing day I had two runners for two or my three bosses. (Was an assistant for 3 trainers simultaneously) Talk about a bad day, the ship in broke his knee at the 1/16th pole and the former stakes horse was eased at the head of the stretch. I didn't know the ship in at all, but I had to give the go ahead to put him down. The former stakes horse had been going badly for a while and a well placed piece of instructions to Ramon allowed him to walk off the track that day.

But in neither case did it seem like these were foretold events. And it sucked mightily.

Look here for a bit of perspective: http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/showthread.php/6-Waiting-for-news-on.../page138

There are 138 pages of people asking about horses that broke down, were vanned off or pulled up. And the number of horses filling those pages in a weekly constant. Why? Because it's a risk inherent to the sport. And the world of horses as a whole. As has been stated there are deaths in eventing, steeplechasing, dressage, rodeo, and I am betting all other disciplines worldwide.

And life is a funny thing sometimes. You see people act like they are owed the life they desire. Not that they should work for it, God forbid. And then you see others that have an amazing grasp of how to work to achieve their dreams, even when Vegas isn't even taking bets the odds are so long.

I don't care if you're a backside worker, a bookie, a rider or just someone who once longed to pet a horse. We all have a life and we all will have a death, and that my friends is a fact. You just have to decide how you're gonna live it, and watch out, as best you can, for those one bad steps.

~Emily

Timex
Apr. 13, 2011, 01:49 PM
It sounds like there are a whole lot of assumptions being made. Brown sold the horse (um, she did have an owner, right?), Brown wanted to squeeze one more race out of her (who says she wasn't running well, and wasn't fit to run more?). Did the woman offer to BUY the mare for what she was worth (claiming price?) Or just to take her? It was an accident, horses have them all the time, all over the place. And we've all seen the proof that non-racing homes are not always any better than the racing homes. It's sad, but with the info given in the OP, I can't see what more there is to be upset over.

rustbreeches
Apr. 13, 2011, 06:32 PM
I was approached often at the track by people saying 'Oh I love your horse, I want to buy him, here's my number" Ok crazy person, thanks and I would trash the piece of paper. I'm sure there were various factors in play as to the why the sale was made. Do you really expect Ronnie to keep track of everybody who wants a horse? I'm pretty sure he has better things to do I think spouting off that this horse is dead because it wasn't sold to the lady who wanted him is slightly ridiculous. If you are so worried about the fate of every horse in the US why do you stand stallions? By offering lower end stallions you just add to the problem of cheaply bred horses in the US

Calamber
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:18 PM
SWTVixen, if "no one knows" when a horse is going to break down you better let the racetracks know because they have vets, stewards and others whose job it is to try and prevent that. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? I hope you are not actually a trainer and if you are, please tell me your name because if I ever own a racehorse again, I will avoid you like the plague. I used to work for Mr. Brown, everyone should look at the stats and read the story of Dorothy Dixer. This is just par for the course for him. Hundreds of horses and very high stats for breakdowns and cripples, maybe not under his name, but you get the picture I hope.

XCountrygirl, it does take quite a bit of collusion to push them toward that "bad step", which is why I took myself out of the equation. It also takes quite a few delusional people to think that it is just "what happens", like the proverbial s#@t. Not at all true, many, probably most, of these deaths can be avoided. It would be a much better situation all around if more were on the page of those who do take responsibility for their actions and become a better horseman and woman for it. Of course there will be deaths, as sooner or later everyone walks that route. The existentialism and nonsense that says it will just happen anyway is pure fatalism and an excuse for watching all of this for so long that it inures you to the obvious. Just don't become jaded, for the sake of the horses at the very least.

Being in busines does not mean you have to turn into Ivan the Terrible to get the bucks, or does it? Maybe that is why Dr. Byars has begun his organization and the discussion that is necessary to have regarding the industry. I am really sick to death of hearing this called a business. What kind of business carries with it this kind of attrition that is a humane kind of enterprise? It is called primitive accumulation in economic terms and then benign neglect. Both horrors and a type of British form of capitalism, a la Adam Smith. Not that of the American System, that of Henry Carey and Alexander Hamilton. You don't eat up your resources in this kind of manner, unless you are the Lord of the Manor and the hounds, horses and people are all your serfs and thus the body count matters not. This is sad and all too familiar.

sjdressage
Apr. 17, 2011, 09:37 PM
[QUOTE=Calamber;5551902]
XCountrygirl, it does take quite a bit of collusion to push them toward that "bad step", which is why I took myself out of the equation. It also takes quite a few delusional people to think that it is just "what happens", like the proverbial s#@t. Not at all true, many, probably most, of these deaths can be avoided. It would be a much better situation all around if more were on the page of those who do take responsibility for their actions and become a better horseman and woman for it. Of course there will be deaths, as sooner or later everyone walks that route. The existentialism and nonsense that says it will just happen anyway is pure fatalism and an excuse for watching all of this for so long that it inures you to the obvious. Just don't become jaded, for the sake of the horses at the very least.

Being in busines does not mean you have to turn into Ivan the Terrible to get the bucks, or does it?QUOTE]

I agree with you. I am sick of people saying that if it is a business, that money is the top priority. Horse welfare should be built into the business plan just like employee benefits are for humans. There are way to many people out there calling themselves horseman that would at the drop of the hat take a horse to an auction because "it's a business". To me, that means you are not a horseman.

There are horses that break down because of the "bad step". A friend of mine just had her first breakdown and the horse was 100% sound and starting for the 2nd time. Made an early/rank move and must have tweaked something. She was a mess. However, there are many that are preventable. There were two horses in the last week or two that were claimed at Philly Park that broke down. Chances are they were dropped because something was wrong.....

Pronzini
Apr. 18, 2011, 11:04 AM
There are horses that break down because of the "bad step". A friend of mine just had her first breakdown and the horse was 100% sound and starting for the 2nd time. Made an early/rank move and must have tweaked something. She was a mess. However, there are many that are preventable. There were two horses in the last week or two that were claimed at Philly Park that broke down. Chances are they were dropped because something was wrong.....

Horses sometimes drop just to get a win. It doesn't always mean that they are working off three wheels.

Out of curiosity, what if the first post was made about your friend's horse that you are convinced was 100 % sound going into the race and (apparently) dead coming out? Then someone went on the Internet and declared how disgusted she was with people like your friend? And your friend who is a "mess" happens to come on and read that bile.

Sure it's an assumption but we all have the right to sling mud and assume the worst? Right?

SwtVixen
Apr. 18, 2011, 06:01 PM
It would seem I hit a nerve with you Calamber...for as sjdressage mentioned......her friend just had a breakdown with a 100% sound horse. It happens. Doesnt mean I'm anything more than a realist.

If all those vets, stewards, etc arent finding fault with a horse......and deem it ok to run, then again, it seems fate has stepped in when things go wrong.

To demean me as a trainer is well..........shows you obviously missed the point of this thread. No One Knows. We all know there are *some* trainers who run sore horses; but I do hold the opinion they are the minority. The greater majority are excellent horseman with total focus on the care and well-being of their stock; and yes, I'll say it ..."its their business" -- so its natural they care more than most can imagine.

witherbee
Apr. 19, 2011, 10:07 AM
Horses sometimes drop just to get a win. It doesn't always mean that they are working off three wheels.

Out of curiosity, what if the first post was made about your friend's horse that you are convinced was 100 % sound going into the race and (apparently) dead coming out? Then someone went on the Internet and declared how disgusted she was with people like your friend? And your friend who is a "mess" happens to come on and read that bile.

Sure it's an assumption but we all have the right to sling mud and assume the worst? Right?

Excellent post. Horses do take bad steps - way too many assumptions made based on just reading that first post. If the OP knows more about that trainer, it explains why she believes the horse had a major issue, but sounds like conjecture and most trainers won't risk the horse, the rider or other horses and riders. Some of these posts are so out in left field.

As for non-racing homes being so much better, I guess that is why I am trying to find room and money to go pick up one that is being starved (one that belonged to a previous owner - is not even one of *mine*), why another was sold to a hunter lady as never to be raced and showed up at Woodbine racing, another that got a terrible pasture injury and ended up starving with the lady calling me begging me to help her sell him, I could go on and on. Doesn't mean ALL non-racing owners are horrible, same as it doesn't mean that ALL racing people run horses that they have an inkling will break down... This discussion is so frustrating.

clh
Apr. 19, 2011, 07:51 PM
Horses sometimes drop just to get a win. It doesn't always mean that they are working off three wheels.

Out of curiosity, what if the first post was made about your friend's horse that you are convinced was 100 % sound going into the race and (apparently) dead coming out? Then someone went on the Internet and declared how disgusted she was with people like your friend? And your friend who is a "mess" happens to come on and read that bile.

Sure it's an assumption but we all have the right to sling mud and assume the worst? Right?

Well said Pronzini! My thoughts exactly. We don't know who reads these boards/threads and when we bash someone, we may indeed be bashing our "friend". As someone who has bred horses and currently has race horses, Pronzini is correct, horses are dropped in "class" in order to help them get a win. If they can't win in open company, they eventually end up in claimers.

Calamber
Apr. 22, 2011, 09:43 AM
It would seem I hit a nerve with you Calamber...for as sjdressage mentioned......her friend just had a breakdown with a 100% sound horse. It happens. Doesnt mean I'm anything more than a realist.

If all those vets, stewards, etc arent finding fault with a horse......and deem it ok to run, then again, it seems fate has stepped in when things go wrong.

To demean me as a trainer is well..........shows you obviously missed the point of this thread. No One Knows. We all know there are *some* trainers who run sore horses; but I do hold the opinion they are the minority. The greater majority are excellent horseman with total focus on the care and well-being of their stock; and yes, I'll say it ..."its their business" -- so its natural they care more than most can imagine.

Hitting a nerve is correct. Nice term for what happens with some of these horses feet, but then you would never know that would you? If you are so proud of your training and racing theories, publish your name behind them. I am not afraid to do so. Fate is the horse that those who will not improve their knowledge ride.

There is always a way to rationalize the suffering that goes on isn't there? Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. This is not to say that the OPs horse was "deliberately damaged", but there is the sin of omission as well as the sin of commission. It is to say that the trainer in question is not part of the solution, not by a long way. "A Lot of Mary" still challenges the trainer's memory of poor decisions and lots of lost money. Oh well, I told you so.

Amber Lane Smith
formerly Loudoun County, Va, now Bainbridge Island, Wa

Kyzteke
Apr. 22, 2011, 10:01 AM
I am not on the track now, but was in the 70's. Even worked at CT for a brief spell.

Yeah, horses break down when racing.

And the break down NOT racing. I went out one day and found my 9yr old stallion with a fractured femur. Living in the same pasture he'd lived in for most of his life.

It happens. Sorry for your loss, but hindsight is always 20/20 and I'm sure the trainer/current owner feels just as badly as you do.

Pristine
Apr. 22, 2011, 06:08 PM
According to the vet doing the breakdown statistics almost all of the horses that have catastrophic injuries had suffered some previous and maybe unnoticed injury like micro cracks in their bones. Some horses cannot handle mud and should be not be raced on an off track. My fillies full sister could not handle mud. Her breeder told me that after she raced unsuccessfully on it. Her next start after she broke her maiden the trainer ran her in the mud. She was pulled up vanned off and never raced again. My horses half sister also did not handle mud. She was pulled up vanned off and she did race again but the owner/trainer ran her in the mud again. She was pulled up vanned off again and has not been heard from since. I fear the worst happened to both of them. I am still upset about the trailer fire. Valuable 2 year olds sent from FL to NY with not even one attendant. One of those colts had just sold at OBS march for $60K. If I had just invested $60K in a horse I would not only have been willing to pay extra for an attendant I would have insisted on somebody being with him.

witherbee
Apr. 26, 2011, 03:38 PM
According to the vet doing the breakdown statistics almost all of the horses that have catastrophic injuries had suffered some previous and maybe unnoticed injury like micro cracks in their bones. Some horses cannot handle mud and should be not be raced on an off track. My fillies full sister could not handle mud. Her breeder told me that after she raced unsuccessfully on it. Her next start after she broke her maiden the trainer ran her in the mud. She was pulled up vanned off and never raced again. My horses half sister also did not handle mud. She was pulled up vanned off and she did race again but the owner/trainer ran her in the mud again. She was pulled up vanned off again and has not been heard from since. I fear the worst happened to both of them. I am still upset about the trailer fire. Valuable 2 year olds sent from FL to NY with not even one attendant. One of those colts had just sold at OBS march for $60K. If I had just invested $60K in a horse I would not only have been willing to pay extra for an attendant I would have insisted on somebody being with him.

1. There is mud, and then there is mud. Sometimes mud is deep and sticky, and sometimes it is just watery. The real issue is how the track is underneath that - are the horses going right through and hitting the bottom, and if so, is that bottom rock hard. It also varies from track to track. Scratching a horse late to the race requires a vet, so sometimes it is hard to judge what the track will be like when you are far from race time. It is a day to day and sometimes minute to minute decision to decide if and when to run a horse. Your post makes it seem very simplistic, and once again trainers are being villified when the whole story is not known. As if we all just want to go out an break down our horses. Also, sometimes that particular race that the horse is qualified for does not come around often - not a reason to run a sore horse, but possibly a reason to try one to see if they can handle the course if it is not too muddy. Often times if you miss a race, it sets the horse back because you have to wait for another that fits your horse's Conditions, and you may also have to deal with the racetrack not choosing your horse because you scratched (there are usually more horses than spots available for some races). Same as the OP, IMO not enough information to make these assumptions about running in the mud.

2. In many states it is ILLEGAL to have an attendent in the trailer. We use Lorraine almost exclusively, and when we don't we use our neighbor, and he does not have an attendent either. A camera would be a good addition, but I certainly do not blame Lorraine for not having one - this was a sad, freak accident IMO.

Pristine
Apr. 26, 2011, 04:37 PM
My ex rode in back from Fl to NJ and vice versa. If they changed the law somewhere then the horses should fly. I remember recently a story where an attendant on a trailer from NJ to NY allegedly fell out so it must be legal in NY too. Considering that the drivers story changed from one article to another I would not ever use those people. First story said saw smoke via camera in back. Stopped woke up other driver who was sleeping,tried to put fire out but it got out of control. Later story says did not see fire until it was too late to save horses. Honest peoples stories generally stay the same. I would not trust somebody whose story changed that much. These were not cheap horses who had poverty stricken owners. They could afford first class. Considering that it was not hot at the time of the fire why were the windows open? Trailers have vents for air circulation and the best are climate controlled. I saw a picture of their custom built trailer on their web site and I do not see a trailer big enough for 6 horses to have box stalls as sombody who commented on Paulick claimed they had. They also supposedly had hay in the center of the trailer when hay bales should have been stored up front away from the horses. They should only have had a small amount of hay in hanging hay nets and they should have had buckets of water which could have been used on a fire. They should also have been carrying one or more fire extinguishers.

danceronice
Apr. 26, 2011, 04:38 PM
Do you always enjoy armchair quarterbacking, Pristine?

spotted draft x filly
Apr. 26, 2011, 04:56 PM
My ex rode in back from Fl to NJ and vice versa. If they changed the law somewhere then the horses should fly. I remember recently a story where an attendant on a trailer from NJ to NY allegedly fell out so it must be legal in NY too. Considering that the drivers story changed from one article to another I would not ever use those people. First story said saw smoke via camera in back. Stopped woke up other driver who was sleeping,tried to put fire out but it got out of control. Later story says did not see fire until it was too late to save horses. Honest peoples stories generally stay the same. I would not trust somebody whose story changed that much. These were not cheap horses who had poverty stricken owners. They could afford first class. Considering that it was not hot at the time of the fire why were the windows open? Trailers have vents for air circulation and the best are climate controlled. I saw a picture of their custom built trailer on their web site and I do not see a trailer big enough for 6 horses to have box stalls as sombody who commented on Paulick claimed they had. They also supposedly had hay in the center of the trailer when hay bales should have been stored up front away from the horses. They should only have had a small amount of hay in hanging hay nets and they should have had buckets of water which could have been used on a fire. They should also have been carrying one or more fire extinguishers.

Have you ever seen the inside of those trailers? They're really neat with all the different ways they can be set up for horses. You can make several box stalls or have tons of stall and a halfs. The windows are left open for ventilation/fresh air. Even the smaller vans leave their windows open. As for the hay, the new owners of the horses probably didn't want to leave all that hay behind. You should see what some of the race horses travel with and how much of it gets packed onto a truck with them.

My husband drives for one of the big horse van companies and I've seen and been inside all the trucks. So if you have anymore questions about the different horse vans/tractor trailers feel free to ask. Also some really big name horses do ride by themselves with out an attendant on local and long distance trips.

witherbee
Apr. 28, 2011, 01:32 PM
I would absolutely use that van company - have in the past and will again. They have some wonderful CARING drivers and the owners are fantastic. As for the news story - seriously, reporters RARELY get a story right, so I doubt that the driver changed his story. I have never heard of ANY of the vans travelling with an attendent in the back and would never expect it. have shipped horses for decades - mares with foals, stallions, youngstock etc and never, ever felt that they were not adequately supervised etc. Some people are just so judgemental and like to kick people/companies when they are down. This was a freak accident and a horrible one, and if you were not there you have no way of knowing whether it could have been prevented or whether any of the horses could have been saved.

My condolences to the owners, the van drivers and the van company and RIP to those young horses. As for the smoker, I hope that person knows what they have done....

Calamber
May. 4, 2011, 09:48 PM
Those cameras that you can hook up to a screen on the dashboard should probably be standard equipment if they care to know what is going on in the back. It is not such a great investment and if anything good can come out of this, I would hope the company bears the cost. I cannot see attendants would do much good if they could not get the attention of the driver, they too would have died. How would that be possible if you are in a tractor and trailer? I have ridden in one of those rigs as an attendant to racehorses shipping to another track, and believe me, it crossed my mind if we had a problem with one of the horses, we were toast. It is a very horrible accident but if I were in the business, I for sure would not ship without some way to see in the back especially after knowing about this situation.

Just read the change of story business regarding the camera. The mainstream media is nearly never to be believed in my book, that just goes without saying. Now I want screens up in the open airways. I always thought there was a chance of flying rocks or stones and really hated to have horses facing into the wind in those open door types. What a bloody waste.

Pristine
May. 4, 2011, 11:02 PM
I have had 6 different horses transported in 5 different trailers including a large livestock trailer + I have also had other livestock transported and transported some myself. I also checked out the web sites of many different horse transport companies including the ones the derby horses arrived on. I also visited the web site of the company that had the fire. Their web site shows a trailer with a walk in front compartment where hay and a water tank are usually stored. On a long trip some van companies want one square bale of hay per horse to feed them on the trip. Florida to New York is a long haul and transporters usually say they stop every 2 to4 hours to check on the horses hay and water and make sure they are OK. Most say you can have an attendant if you want to pay extra. Most have a video camera to watch the horses and make sure they are not in danger of harming themselves. If the hay was set on fire by a cigarette there would have been plenty of time to put it out before it spread if there was somebody paying attention. The van companies I checked on use hay nets and have water buckets. The amount of hay in the hay net could have been shoved in the water bucket and the fire would have been history. I have loads of experience with hauling hay and I used to smoke cigarettes and I know hay does not go up that quickly from just a cigarette. The people who transported my horses did not leave windows open and they did not have any bedding on the floor of the trailer. The livestock trailer had opening at the top but my horse had his hay in a hay net and the rest of the hay was in the back half separated by a metal divider. The horses on the trailer were all 2 year olds and being babies were more likely to be upset on such a long trip. I do not believe that they did right by those horses. People should do everything possible to prevent disasters. I have also put out fires and it is not that difficult. I read about a trailer fire that was started on purpose and half the horses died. How do you know it was an accident? It could have been arson.

Laurierace
May. 5, 2011, 08:55 AM
Pristine I challenge you to dedicate your life to nothing other than throwing a lit cigarette intentionally into a trailer while traveling both vehicles are traveling 60mph. Maybe 50 years from now you would have perfected the technique. The only person to blame is the smoker who most likely doesn't have the slightest idea he/she caused the tragedy.

trubandloki
May. 5, 2011, 09:29 AM
:eek:

Scary that there are so many people who seem to have functioning crystal balls that they do not share with others until after something bad happens.

Lots of horses (not just race horses) get sold to people other than someone who wanted them too. Lots of horses have life ending injuries.

The rest of this is just drama and hind site is 20/20 drivel.

Calamber
May. 5, 2011, 09:44 AM
:eek:

Scary that there are so many people who seem to have functioning crystal balls that they do not share with others until after something bad happens.

Lots of horses (not just race horses) get sold to people other than someone who wanted them too. Lots of horses have life ending injuries.

The rest of this is just drama and hind site is 20/20 drivel.

To some hindsight is drivel, to other more thoughtful people it is an opportunity to prevent such tragedies. Some people just don't want to think that much, of that there is more than ample evidence. Just look at the country in general. So many things we could have prevented, so many people who could be charged with crimes against the nation for stealing so much money. So many people looking the other way until it is almost too late. There is the tragedy. As far as this accident is concerned, screens would work perfectly or we could just say, hey, there are no people smoking various things on the road, or no flying stones, or whatever, what the heck, we've been doing it like this for x number of years, why bother changing now? Spoken like a dinosaur. Why not use it as a learning experience. I for sure would not want my horses' feet burning off of their bodies, and me blithely driving down the road with no clue.

danceronice
May. 5, 2011, 10:54 AM
Unless you ban smoking, there will be jackwagons who throw butts on the road. As for flying stones--how dumb can you be? You want that, better go invent a road surface that never deteriorates and is somehow magically protected from any foreign body ever getting on the road. Of course that latter is pointless to think about changing, there is always a chance something on the road will bounce up (hence why I think anyone with the big side half-doors open on trailers is nuts to say the least, but it's not my trailer, if they want to be an idiot it's on them.) Yet my horse somehow traveled 700 miles in a trailer with a stock-type door (an opening at the top) and an open slat near the top with nothing getting in. I wouldn't hesitate to use that hauler again.

Pristine--glad you have such extensive experience knowing how easy hay fires are to spot and put out. I'm sure many firefighters would benefit from your extensive knowledge and experience. (That's sarcasm, if you were wondering.) I suggest you take Laurie's advice and spend some time experimenting to figure out exactly how it happened so you can tell the haulers and the owners exactly what they did wrong and why they're evil people who should have known it would happen.

Accidents happen. There is no way to make any activity 100% foolproof where nothing bad ever happens. The reason anyone can look back and say "Gee, if we'd only done this" is because AFTER THE FACT, things become obvious. You can step back from the results and figure out what happened where. That's why they analyze accidents. In this case, the answer might be "smaller windows/vents, higher up." Might be a smoke detector in the trailer that goes off in the truck cab. (if you have one driving resting and one, oh, I don't know, driving? Who is watching a video feed?) A noise is more useful than a picture. Attendants? Could work, though do they have a seat with restraints? (You're not legally allowed to ride in the back of vehicles.) But you also have to ask, is the scenario likely enough to make a massive reworking necessary or feasible? Maybe figuring out a hard-wired smoke detector would make sense for the big shippers with a large number of vehicles. The average trailer owner? Probably not. Even if you do change how everyone does things and try to fix absolutely everything so it's TOTALLY SAFE, though, accidents have a way of happening. Until we invent infallible humans, they will continue to happen. The most you can do take reasonable precauations (which is not treating every single ship job like moving a load of gold from Fort Knox) and consider "How likely is this to happen again?"

Pristine
May. 6, 2011, 04:48 PM
The person to blame is the one who left the windows open. A horse could get their head out an open window and be decapitated by a passing vehicle. If it was caused by a cigarette the person who tossed it may have been the driver of the rig. Somebody posted that they tossed a cigarette out their window and it landed on their backseat. The wind rushing by could have carried it back to the trailer. If people learn from their mistakes like Calamber said then hopefully tragedies will not be repeated. Screens,smoke detectors, video cameras(which most haulers already have),even portable corrals to offload horses into in case of emergency,fire extinguishers,etc. Some haulers stop to feed horses and do not leave any hay in back. As for attendants like I said I checked the web sites of many haulers and they say you can have an attendant in the back with the horses. An attendent would have noticed smoke sooner than anybody else and could have put it out quickly. There was a trailer fire involving yearlings allegedly started by the drivers changing a tire and setting the axle grease on fire. They allegedly could not save a single horse even though they were right there when it started stopped on the side of the road. People have purposely killed horses for insurance money,revenge,etc. Horses are much more precious than gold and everything possible should be done to insure their safety.

Laurierace
May. 6, 2011, 05:00 PM
Horses in that type of rig could not get their heads out of the window if they removed their head and stuck them on a broomstick! Seriously, where do you come up with this BS? This was not a slant load, it was a van. Pick a real cause will you?

Pristine
May. 6, 2011, 11:07 PM
Horses can get their heads out of windows in vans whether or not they are slant load especially if they have box stalls which many people prefer for a long trip so that their horses can lay down. Even if a horse is tied he might untie himself or chew thru the tie.

Laurierace
May. 6, 2011, 11:09 PM
Those windows are probably two feet above their heads. Give it a rest.

SwtVixen
May. 7, 2011, 03:45 PM
If the truth be known (and it isnt).......
most likely one of the drivers/passengers is a smoker and probably tossed a cig out the window without thinking and it landed in the trailer.

Makes more sense than thinking someone passing by did this.

Either way, no one will ever really know- however, its another smoking casualty.

Pristine
May. 7, 2011, 03:56 PM
You are full of BS Laurierace. www.lorrainehorsetrans.com shows their custom built trailer. Horses could easily put their head out an open window. I have never seen a trailer where full size Thoroughbreds would have windows 2 feet above their heads. These were not miniature horses or ponies. Your are either very ignorant or you enjoy lying.

SwtVixen
May. 7, 2011, 04:14 PM
Pristine ............. all that is uncalled for.

I dont know how you went from a discussion about a terrible accident to arguing over things that havent happened.

Geeze....enough.

usedtobeaweffer
May. 7, 2011, 04:36 PM
I just started to reading this thread and had to add this



Racing is a business. No one knows if a horse is gong to break down --- there just isnt any way, and certainly when it does happen, fingers cant be pointed saying..."you shouldnt have run the horse". It happens, no ones fault.

I've posted this elsewhere trying to keep perspective... but in the last 10 years of eventing 38 people have DIED. People died, folks, and I dont see protesters standing at the start box saying..."dont do this, you'll die". There are hundreds paralyzed and maimed for life --- with just as many horses lost. It happens.

Racing is its own business, just like eventing, show jumpers, h/j's --- foxhunters........its its own world. I would wonder if people are asking these other professionals to give them their horses when they are ready to retire....... or before something happens to them. I dont know but I doubt anyone is standing at an out-gate asking to be given a horse that doesnt ribbon.

What I notice is folks wanting these tb's ...sometimes for their own horses, but mostly to train and flip. These racing horses have a life, and when they retire there are adoption agencies, CANTER, and other outlets to secure one.
There isnt this butchering or need to call to arms a rally to save racehorses, many times its like a plane crash, the only time you hear about it, not the thousands of good races.

I know of DK, he had a horse I would have liked to personally own, and did send him a message that if he retires the horse to contact me, I was willing to pay the claim -- he decided to continue to run the horse and he is still running only
under a different trainer, it was claimed. As someone said, offer the tag; doesnt mean they'll sell you the horse either.
Sometimes it has nothing to do with the trainer, but the owners.
If you do have a trainers license, then this is redundant to you , but maybe it will help others understand.





The difference between eventer riders dying and horses dying in any sport is that the humans made the choice to do that particualr sport knowing full well the difficulties, dangerousness, etc. etc. etc … horses however do not really have the choice to say "Oh, I don't know sounds dangerous"…

That being said- I do agree with most of the rest of what you said… I just don't like comparing it to the deaths of people competing in a sport they love knowing full well the possible outcomes…. just sayin

usedtobeaweffer
May. 7, 2011, 04:56 PM
Oh yeah and Pristine… you are freaking nuts… do you even own horses? you say you have shipped horses well…. it sure doesn't sound like it… good lord… the windows in those trailers (including box stalls as they are no different than reg. stalls except the partitions are moved around) are not at a level where a horse could put it's head out. usually they are at the back of the trailer towards the horses arse… and usually have some sort of bars or screening across them… or sometimes are in the middle of the aisle where horses can't get there heads out… or sometimes to the side of the horses once again with some sort of screening or bars… any of the commercial shipping companies I have ever used have been like this.. and i have used- Brookledge, Hennesy, Lorraine, and a few others. and I have shipped up and down the east coast for over 15 years to any number of destinations… Now yes I have seen some personally owned trailers slants and what not with the windows at horse head height with the horses head sticking out. however, they would have to hang that head pretty damn far to get decapitated…

Laurierace
May. 7, 2011, 05:12 PM
You are full of BS Laurierace. www.lorrainehorsetrans.com shows their custom built trailer. Horses could easily put their head out an open window. I have never seen a trailer where full size Thoroughbreds would have windows 2 feet above their heads. These were not miniature horses or ponies. Your are either very ignorant or you enjoy lying.

I am very ignorant I guess. Join the club. I have actually been inside Lorraine's custom built trailers. Have you? By the way it's you're ignorant.

usedtobeaweffer
May. 7, 2011, 05:28 PM
Ditto Laurierace- Apparently this person has never been inside a commercial horse van… i mean do you really think they just let the horses and wander around.. cause just so you know all of those big open windows you see are in NO WAY reachable by a horse. the horses are in stalls and they are either tied or loose but in no way able to reach those windows…

Laurierace
May. 7, 2011, 05:33 PM
Horses are shipped to slaughter with a second floor of horse loaded above them. Maybe those horse could reach the windows.

LauraKY
May. 7, 2011, 06:24 PM
I just started to reading this thread and had to add this
The difference between eventer riders dying and horses dying in any sport is that the humans made the choice to do that particualr sport knowing full well the difficulties, dangerousness, etc. etc. etc … horses however do not really have the choice to say "Oh, I don't know sounds dangerous"…

That being said- I do agree with most of the rest of what you said… I just don't like comparing it to the deaths of people competing in a sport they love knowing full well the possible outcomes…. just sayin

You do know, that horses die too. I wonder what the percentage of deaths and catastrophic injury per number of horses competed is compared to racing?

usedtobeaweffer
May. 7, 2011, 07:05 PM
Laura- that's what i was trying to say. horses don't get the choice ..people do… that's why I don't think it's fair for the original poster to compare human lives to horse lives… humans ride eventers knowing full well what the possible implications are… horses not so much..so I was trying to say that it's not sucha good comparison…

LauraKY
May. 7, 2011, 07:08 PM
Laura- that's what i was trying to say. horses don't get the choice ..people do… that's why I don't think it's fair for the original poster to compare human lives to horse lives… humans ride eventers knowing full well what the possible implications are… horses not so much..so I was trying to say that it's not sucha good comparison…

Ahh. Sorry, you are absolutely right.

Mara
May. 7, 2011, 08:13 PM
Ditto Laurierace- Apparently this person has never been inside a commercial horse van… i mean do you really think they just let the horses and wander around.. cause just so you know all of those big open windows you see are in NO WAY reachable by a horse. the horses are in stalls and they are either tied or loose but in no way able to reach those windows…

Eh, not that it excuses anything, but I'm betting Pristine's around 12-13 years old. The writing is very young teen-agey.

usedtobeaweffer
May. 7, 2011, 09:20 PM
This is true… lol… maybe I should be nice…

spotted draft x filly
May. 8, 2011, 05:36 AM
You are full of BS Laurierace. www.lorrainehorsetrans.com shows their custom built trailer. Horses could easily put their head out an open window. I have never seen a trailer where full size Thoroughbreds would have windows 2 feet above their heads. These were not miniature horses or ponies. Your are either very ignorant or you enjoy lying.

Look at the picture again. Where the horses are stalled there's bars on the windows. The only "open" windows are where the doors are. All the horse vans have bars in their windows. Show that just show how ignorant you are if you can't see that in a picture.

To the OP, sorry that the horse broke down. Yes it's sad, but what makes you think if your friend got her the same thing might not have happend? It seemed to be destined for that horse to break down. Your friend could of brought her home and within a short time she would of come up lame. So don't blame racing beacause after all shit happens.

SwtVixen
May. 8, 2011, 05:40 AM
Laura- that's what i was trying to say. horses don't get the choice ..people do… that's why I don't think it's fair for the original poster to compare human lives to horse lives… humans ride eventers knowing full well what the possible implications are… horses not so much..so I was trying to say that it's not sucha good comparison…

But that was my point in offering these facts. The riders know there is a higher percentage of death and injury to (not only themselves but) the horses involved.
In racing ...well, it can happen, doesnt mean it will ..

Ok, you run a Kentucky Derby, one horse pulls up, with injuries that are repairable and you'll most likely see him racing again. I have personally handled a horse that had this happen,
surgery...with 26 screws! and came back for an excellent race career.
What Im noticing (and I havent been looking hard either) is that there are greater "casualties" in eventing.
Everyone criticized Barbaro, Eight Bells, etc...yet, made a hero out of Teddy.Attitudes "Oh, thats a shame, tsk, tsk" (which it WAS a shame and a uber talented horse was lost!)..I didnt see huge protests at the next event, or to the Team O'Conner...(and Im not saying there should have been--thank goodness)...but, you do know of the controversy brought to the racing community.

Only keeping things in perspective, thats all. Not finger pointing, or bring on blame...just looking at stats.

usedtobeaweffer
May. 8, 2011, 11:05 AM
I agree… I am a hunter/jumper girl who learned all I know from race horse people after growing up on a breeding and training farm that bred the likes of Spectacular Bid… however, I have always had a problem with eventing because yes I totally agree it is EXTREMELY dangerous for horses… you know any horse sport is potentially dangerous for horse and rider. I wish there were more trainer/owners/riders etc… of all disciplines that acted more like Motion. The horse should always come first. Yes breakdowns and what not will happen … unfortunately it's the "bed" ones or the ones handled without humanity before or after that give all these "accidents" a bad name… breakdowns absolutely happen in EVERY discipline… it is our job to help prevent them and to treat a horse with humanity when they do happen… and I think Racetracks are probably the best at trying to prevent them… vet checks all day long… I think they are doing a good job…just sayin… lol

Calamber
May. 9, 2011, 06:20 AM
Unless you ban smoking, there will be jackwagons who throw butts on the road. As for flying stones--how dumb can you be? You want that, better go invent a road surface that never deteriorates and is somehow magically protected from any foreign body ever getting on the road. Of course that latter is pointless to think about changing, there is always a chance something on the road will bounce up (hence why I think anyone with the big side half-doors open on trailers is nuts to say the least, but it's not my trailer, if they want to be an idiot it's on them.) Yet my horse somehow traveled 700 miles in a trailer with a stock-type door (an opening at the top) and an open slat near the top with nothing getting in. I wouldn't hesitate to use that hauler again.

Pristine--glad you have such extensive experience knowing how easy hay fires are to spot and put out. I'm sure many firefighters would benefit from your extensive knowledge and experience. (That's sarcasm, if you were wondering.) I suggest you take Laurie's advice and spend some time experimenting to figure out exactly how it happened so you can tell the haulers and the owners exactly what they did wrong and why they're evil people who should have known it would happen.

Accidents happen. There is no way to make any activity 100% foolproof where nothing bad ever happens. The reason anyone can look back and say "Gee, if we'd only done this" is because AFTER THE FACT, things become obvious. You can step back from the results and figure out what happened where. That's why they analyze accidents. In this case, the answer might be "smaller windows/vents, higher up." Might be a smoke detector in the trailer that goes off in the truck cab. (if you have one driving resting and one, oh, I don't know, driving? Who is watching a video feed?) A noise is more useful than a picture. Attendants? Could work, though do they have a seat with restraints? (You're not legally allowed to ride in the back of vehicles.) But you also have to ask, is the scenario likely enough to make a massive reworking necessary or feasible? Maybe figuring out a hard-wired smoke detector would make sense for the big shippers with a large number of vehicles. The average trailer owner? Probably not. Even if you do change how everyone does things and try to fix absolutely everything so it's TOTALLY SAFE, though, accidents have a way of happening. Until we invent infallible humans, they will continue to happen. The most you can do take reasonable precauations (which is not treating every single ship job like moving a load of gold from Fort Knox) and consider "How likely is this to happen again?"

Did you miss where I mentioned screens? Have you never seen horses traveling down the road with their head stuck up to one of those windows in the slant loads? There are screens that roll down in some and could be standard equipment. Do you not care about anyone's horses but yours with the dismissive comment that "it is on them". I thought we were having a discussion about possible safety procedures for trailers. Why do you get insulting and call someone dumb for thinking that a flying rock might hit a horse's face? Of course roads degrade but I have news for you, sometimes accidents cause a rethinking of policy and sometimes, in a rational world, it might cause a creative, caring person to devise an invention to prevent it. Glad you are not on a public policy or safety panel for transports, at least I hope you are not.

danceronice
May. 9, 2011, 09:18 PM
No, I don't actually care what people do to/with their horses assuming it's legal. It's not my horse. Not my insurance premium on the truck and trailer, either. I'll comment when I think it's stupid or if I might get stuck dealing with it (I don't want to buy a horse and find out some NH fan fried its brain so it's useless now) but you want to put your horse at risk? No skin off my nose. Not that it appears to have happened here. Freak accidents happen.

And no, horses with their heads hanging out of slant loads is not a common sight around here. I wouldn't do it (not because of rocks, because roads aren't THAT wide I'd be sure the sides of other vehicles would clear it.) I'd roll my eyes at it. I'm not going to go pillory the owner about it, though. Their property, their loss if something goes wrong.

Calamber
May. 10, 2011, 06:07 AM
No, I don't actually care what people do to/with their horses assuming it's legal. It's not my horse. Not my insurance premium on the truck and trailer, either. I'll comment when I think it's stupid or if I might get stuck dealing with it (I don't want to buy a horse and find out some NH fan fried its brain so it's useless now) but you want to put your horse at risk? No skin off my nose. Not that it appears to have happened here. Freak accidents happen.

And no, horses with their heads hanging out of slant loads is not a common sight around here. I wouldn't do it (not because of rocks, because roads aren't THAT wide I'd be sure the sides of other vehicles would clear it.) I'd roll my eyes at it. I'm not going to go pillory the owner about it, though. Their property, their loss if something goes wrong.

I said stuck up to not out. I repeat, I am glad you are not a policy maker in any of those areas that matter. You are supremely cavalier about anything other than your own it seems. Are you really that callous about "accidents" if they do not affect you?

MintHillFarm
Jul. 29, 2011, 08:23 AM
hilltop... on this one I feel ya.

There are some people I've met that I swear go out of their way to not do right by the horses.

Whether the owner sold the horse, or whether it was just "good business..." I don't know.

Will leave it there, I guess.

I agree.

I try to figure some people out but never seem to learn that it's unlikely I will.

Maybe he was thinking he had a shot at a piece of the purse & cash a bet in that race?

Laurierace
Oct. 4, 2011, 08:22 AM
reported both spammers

Madeline
Oct. 8, 2011, 05:36 PM
...Everyone criticized Barbaro, Eight Bells, etc...yet, made a hero out of Teddy.Attitudes "Oh, thats a shame, tsk, tsk" (which it WAS a shame and a uber talented horse was lost!)..I didnt see huge protests at the next event, or to the Team O'Conner.

Totally irrelevant. Teddy died as a result of an at home barnyard injury...