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gold2012
Apr. 7, 2011, 06:47 PM
Okay, so we all know the FEI list is clear as mud....and I suppose if you have a degree in chemistry, you might actually know what all those substances are...

But for the rest of us....

I was thinking, rarely, but thinking, maybe it would be nice to compile a "FEI approved substances for dummies" handout. Today, our horse, who is waiting on his FEI passport back from USEA had a minor scratch, and my daughter and I wanted to put something on it. WELLLLLL....shoot, now what. Don't want to use anything we know we can't...which we don't know much yet.

So idea, if all of you wonderful FEI competitors would name WHAT IS allowed, that you know for a FACT, it would be SOOO beneficial to us. I was talking to someone who is a regular that comes to the events here to sell tack and stuff what was legal, even she was...heck if I know...it doesn't make sense.

So her and I talked, and we decided to try and come up with a list of what we can use, what drugs and what time frame, etc...for the lay person who doesn't want to text poor Jenn 50 times a day.

Thanks.

faybe
Apr. 7, 2011, 06:52 PM
Don't know if you're a techie but the FEI has a "Cleansport" app for prohibited substances (the app is for iPhone, don't know about the other smartphones). It has a search function so if you have something you want to give, you can type it in to see if it's legal.

gold2012
Apr. 7, 2011, 06:57 PM
Yeah, but it's not, that I can tell, name brands, but rather, for the most part, (hmmm that was clear and decisive) really name brand, but rather lists things like.....Hydrogen Oxide...I used that one cause I know what it actually is...grin...

Hence why I want to compile a list of things that actually name products...

For instance, the way I understand it, you can use Sore No More gel, but not liquid...Why? they both have exactly the same stuff in them..the gel actually has one more ingredient...

So you get the idea.

joiedevie99
Apr. 7, 2011, 07:05 PM
Yeah, but it's not, that I can tell, name brands, but rather, for the most part, (hmmm that was clear and decisive) really name brand, but rather lists things like.....Hydrogen Oxide...I used that one cause I know what it actually is...grin...

Hence why I want to compile a list of things that actually name products...

For instance, the way I understand it, you can use Sore No More gel, but not liquid...Why? they both have exactly the same stuff in them..the gel actually has one more ingredient...

So you get the idea.

As far as I know all Sore No More products are out as they contain Arnica. Has that changed?

deltawave
Apr. 7, 2011, 07:13 PM
No need to reinvent the wheel.

http://prohibitedsubstancesdatabase.feicleansport.org/

Could not be simpler. :) Works for brand names as well as generics.

"Arnica" did not yield any results--might not function for herbals.

Nope, I take it back--"Valerian" is banned and that's an herbal. Maybe arnica is OK after all. Or there are some holes in the database. Still, it ought to cover most of the stuff that's in an ointment or something you'd put on a minor scratch.

There are plenty of "legal" medications that fall under FEI rules. They just need to be declared and documented.

Divine Comedy
Apr. 7, 2011, 07:25 PM
I'd really love to see a database where I can search for the brand name....like "Sore No More Liniment" or "Cowboy Magic Shampoo" and be able to tell what is legal and what isn't. It's a pretty huge pain to have to search for all the ingredients, especially if I'm in a store looking to buy something.

deltawave
Apr. 7, 2011, 07:28 PM
That's where the smart phone app might come in handy, so you can check the ingredients before you buy, with the bottle in your hand. Since most products have multiple formulations, it would be a gigantic and unending task for one governing body to keep up with every potential product in a database.

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 7, 2011, 07:45 PM
As far as I know all Sore No More products are out as they contain Arnica. Has that changed?


only if you make them drink it....some are ok used as directed (on the skin). At least that was what I was told.


I thought both the liquid and gel are fine...as braces on the skin. But a couple weeks out...we typically just used plain alcohol to be safe.


ETA: OP for a little cut--I would check but I think you are safe to put your basic triple antibiotic ointment. But once you are at an FEI event...I think you need to run most things by the attending vet.

scubed
Apr. 7, 2011, 07:57 PM
If you look here at the product description, it specifically says it has arnica and meets FEI zero tolerance rules. http://www.bigdweb.com/prodinfo.asp?number=20SNMTG
Not that I believe everything manufacturers say about their products....

gold2012
Apr. 7, 2011, 08:41 PM
So, first, brand names are NOT included on the FEI website. Second, have any of you actually LOOKED at what is included in a list of what is in something? Also, did you know Yucca can't be given, because it has analgesic properties...so it's banned, even though, it can't be found on the list. How many other things aren't found on that list? A LOT. Because it will test positive for something else. Hence asking ESTABLISHED, been there DONE THAT FEI competitors to help clear it up.

As for checking on a smart phone app...you know, not ALL of us have one of those. My simple little, cheap plan, doesn't do that. As well, I dunno about anyone else, but I simply haven't hours to go through a list looking at ingredients for multiple purchases.

I REALLY would appreciate ANY help.

Thanks.

gold2012
Apr. 7, 2011, 08:43 PM
only if you make them drink it....some are ok used as directed (on the skin). At least that was what I was told.


I thought both the liquid and gel are fine...as braces on the skin. But a couple weeks out...we typically just used plain alcohol to be safe.


ETA: OP for a little cut--I would check but I think you are safe to put your basic triple antibiotic ointment. But once you are at an FEI event...I think you need to run most things by the attending vet.

See, here is a good example...I was told to NOT use alchol at a TR3D cause it too would test positive for a prohibitive substance.

And here is the quandry....horses need help. I dunno any athlete who doesn't take an aspirin ocasionally, or rub liniment on themselves after a workout....

I absolutely believe in the zero tolerance thing....but if we are going to have that, we need to know what we CAN USE.:yes:

gold2012
Apr. 7, 2011, 08:46 PM
No need to reinvent the wheel.

http://prohibitedsubstancesdatabase.feicleansport.org/

Could not be simpler. :) Works for brand names as well as generics.

"Arnica" did not yield any results--might not function for herbals.

Nope, I take it back--"Valerian" is banned and that's an herbal. Maybe arnica is OK after all. Or there are some holes in the database. Still, it ought to cover most of the stuff that's in an ointment or something you'd put on a minor scratch.

There are plenty of "legal" medications that fall under FEI rules. They just need to be declared and documented.

How is the average person suppose to know "Valerian" is a herbal? This is where it gets so muddy.

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 7, 2011, 08:53 PM
See, here is a good example...I was told to NOT use alchol at a TR3D cause it too would test positive for a prohibitive substance.

And here is the quandry....horses need help. I dunno any athlete who doesn't take an aspirin ocasionally, or rub liniment on themselves after a workout....

I absolutely believe in the zero tolerance thing....but if we are going to have that, we need to know what we CAN USE.:yes:


Rubbing alcohol used when bandaging a leg doesn't test and is perfectly fine at FEI events. I'm not sure who told you that at the T3D but that is not correct.


ETA: A list for dummies may be a nice thought but it isn't all crystal clear for a reason. Horses metabolize things differently...so what is a safe witholding period for one horse will not be for another.

Divine Comedy
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:35 PM
Gold2012, generally I don't use anything at an FEI event to 'help' the horse recover. I'm with you though, it would be nice to give them a liniment bath, etc. But I stick with icing, hand walking, and maybe seeing if there is an equine masseuse on grounds if my horse is especially stiff. Back on track blankets, magnetic therapies, infrared. But mostly icing and handwalking.

At home, before the event, I try to make sure all the products I own and use (shampoo, ointments, etc) on a regular basis are FEI safe especially if I'm less than a month out for an FEI show. I don't worry too much about small cuts as long as they look okay, I just make sure they're clean and I put vaseline on them to soften and help them heal faster. After galloping, I ice and wrap, no liniment. Etc, etc.

In other words, the easiest thing to do for FEI is to only use ice and water on the horse.

gold2012
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:42 PM
I am finding it terribly frustrating that there seems to be no "guidelines" for wrapping legs, what can/can't be put on a cut.

I also find it frustrating that the educational opportunity that exist here seems to be being passed up on.

We had a thread recently about the lack of horsemanship in our youth, and how we need to educate....here would be a great example.

As to the alcohol....it was an FEI vet. Who said, and I quote: "Alcohol will test as a stimulant, and you would be wise to NOT use it for any purpose other than in extreme cases."

Also, as a side note, recently we bought a joint supplement for our intermediate horse, only to find on the list Yucca. JH told me that Yucca will test positive as an Anathegesic....hope spelled that correctly. I looked to see if it was on the Prohibited list...to find it is not. I then proceeded to contact FEI at the number they suggested, after several attempts to actually reach someone who had the scoop, I gave up and we went to injections instead. I never rec'd an answer from FEI. Either way.

Anyway, still looking for some help, if anyone is so inclined. thanx.

gold2012
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:44 PM
Gold2012, generally I don't use anything at an FEI event to 'help' the horse recover. I'm with you though, it would be nice to give them a liniment bath, etc. But I stick with icing, hand walking, and maybe seeing if there is an equine masseuse on grounds if my horse is especially stiff. Back on track blankets, magnetic therapies, infrared. But mostly icing and handwalking.

At home, before the event, I try to make sure all the products I own and use (shampoo, ointments, etc) on a regular basis are FEI safe especially if I'm less than a month out for an FEI show. I don't worry too much about small cuts as long as they look okay, I just make sure they're clean and I put vaseline on them to soften and help them heal faster. After galloping, I ice and wrap, no liniment. Etc, etc.

In other words, the easiest thing to do for FEI is to only use ice and water on the horse.

Can you send me a list of the shampoos and stuff you do use? I have heard that quick silver isn't allowed as well...we have a gray...go figure...:yes:

tuppysmom
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:56 PM
Many people spend way too much money on stuff to put on, or in their horse. Many of these "helps" are not really needed and probably are just a way to part you from your money. A nice clean wound heals just fine.

Stick with ice, walking, and a good rub down, you know, like in the "old days".

It has worked for us, and I don't know anyone who has had their horse tested more often than my DD. The little horse was tested at every event he competed at one season, but they say it is random........

Divine Comedy
Apr. 8, 2011, 12:05 AM
Can you send me a list of the shampoos and stuff you do use? I have heard that quick silver isn't allowed as well...we have a gray...go figure...:yes:

I use Quic Silver on Dante's legs, and so does everyone else that I know competing FEI. I can't remember where I found the ingredient list, and I might even have emailed them to get their ingredients. I have used it every single show including FEI, and I did get tested for drugs (well, the pony did, not me!) and nothing tested positive so I guess I was right about all my products!

So here's my list:

Quic Silver for legs/white
Equinique shampoo - I just ran out of this and it's not made anymore, so I'm looking for a new one. Cowboy Magic has lavender in it, which in 2009 was illegal...Not sure if it still is or not, but I'd like to find a color enhancing shampoo. Looking into Quic Color or Gallop Shampoo.
Pyranha fly spray
Show sheen
Quic Braid
Absorbine HoofShield, I think.

Couldn't find a liniment at the time. I've heard all kinds of things about Sore No More. I found all of the Sore No More products had arnica maybe? that was illegal. But others at my barn swore they'd been using it at FEI for years and never tested positive. Another girl said she talked to a rep recently and he swore up and down that all Sore No More products are legal for FEI. There's a debate about whether it's legal to use Sore No More as directed on the skin only, and it's only illegal if the horse ingests it. I dunno though, and I'm really not going to use a product on my FEI horse if it has an illegal ingredient listed on the product list.

It might be nice if anyone who competes FEI could chime in on products they use at FEI events.

gold2012
Apr. 8, 2011, 12:12 AM
I dunno about the Sore No More either. Missy did a stint as a working student at a BIGNR, and that was what they used....but again, it's really up for interpretation...I don't think it's a good idea....I agree, it has a listed ingredient that is illegal.

Thanks for your list. Vetrolin is out right? We use to use the vetroline shampoo, and it just does the best job...but then we heard you couldn't use it.

FEI people, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE feel free to chime in.

THX.

Equa
Apr. 8, 2011, 12:28 AM
Agree with Tuppysmon. Think about all the stuff that washes off your horse and into drains and paddocks and creeks. Including unneccessary antibiotics!

gold2012
Apr. 8, 2011, 12:54 AM
Oh MY gosh...so we decided to try and google all of this...get this...the grease you put on x/c, the eventer grease, yup, has witch hazel and arnica in it...both illegal, I think. So we use Crisco?

Then I found a discussion similiar to this, where they are saying that the reason no data base exist is because no one holds manufactures accountable for what they put in, so they can't say, because, it might change to include a substance illegal.

UGH.

And for what it's worth, I know of NOTHING that will get a gray horse gray, except for whitening shampoo and Hydrogen Peroxide.....and while I am all about our earth....I don't know something to use otherwise, and going to a show with a half-green gray ISH, not something wanting to do....grin.

Divine Comedy
Apr. 8, 2011, 01:08 AM
Yeah, I'm definitely going to be giving my horse a shampoo bath before a show. And it needs to be legal ingredients.

Yeah, I think Vetrolin stuff is mostly illegal. And I know that Cowboy Magic Green Spot Remover isn't kosher either.

At least, they all have at least one ingredient on the illegal list. Whether or not they test....I just choose not to risk it.

Napoles
Apr. 8, 2011, 05:34 AM
Well theoretically this link should be helpful... but nothing I type in seems to show up..
http://prohibitedsubstancesdatabase.feicleansport.org/

Re the event grease, Barrier Event Grease purports to be free from banned substances..

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 8, 2011, 07:38 AM
Gold--not all FEI vets are created equal. Ask three of them the same question and you may get 5 different answers ;)

I was a groom on FEI level horses for years...and OTHER FEI vets said a small amount on bandages when you set a horse up for the night was fine. Personally, I usually just iced and then wrapped.

I honestly don't like zero tollerance. I think given the testing, too many people can be found to be in violation when no competitive advantage was gained.

There is also a lot they can have AT the event with supervision. I knew a horse who had to be treated with pretty heavy duty antibiotics at an FEI event and were able to have him treated.

You can also give your mare Regumate...and GG for ulcers. You just have to declare it when you first get to the event.

I do look the products that I use and am careful to try to have only legal stuff.

Having been the groom for a very famous white horse....the best thing for keeping them white isn't any special shampoo. It is washing them often and rubbing on them often. I found no difference in what I used. You can not get them really white with one bath. There is a reason I never want to own a white horse again!!!!

gold2012
Apr. 8, 2011, 09:12 AM
[QUOTE= You can not get them really white with one bath. There is a reason I never want to own a white horse again!!!![/QUOTE]

I am SOOOO there with you on that one. I scrub this crazy horse daily...but Hydrogen on the tail hairs will sure take that yellow out.

Thanks guys.

deltawave
Apr. 8, 2011, 09:49 AM
If you want to be spoon fed every single possible substance that might be banned, that's not going to happen. The burden for knowing what is and isn't legal is on the competitor.

When in doubt, you can contact the FEI or the USEF about a given product. They are extremely helpful and far more legitimate than asking someone who has shown at these levels. Even among those who have (myself included) there is a lot of urban legend and confusion. That's why the link is there. If you want tomuse something that comes up as a "not found" on the search, email the FEI or an FEI vet and ask. Nobody here has any authority to tell you if something is OK or not. Why would you rely on Google or COTH rather than the FEI?

Otherwise, the safest bet is to not use a bunch of junk anyway--most of it is worthless anyhow. :)



Many people spend way too much money on stuff to put on, or in their horse. Many of these "helps" are not really needed and probably are just a way to part you from your money. A nice clean wound heals just fine.

Stick with ice, walking, and a good rub down, you know, like in the "old days". AMEN.

eks
Apr. 8, 2011, 11:45 PM
I was at an FEI competition with one of my horses and I used lavender Johnson's baby shampoo on her tail and then freaked out because I realized lavender is on the list of prohibited substances..I actually called the J&J and they wouldn't come right out and say it, but there isn't any real lavender in the product...

After this incident, I only use Ivory Liquid soap and it seems to do a good job..although my horses aren't gray ;)

I also think Quick Braid shampoo is illegal.

Divine Comedy
Apr. 9, 2011, 12:11 AM
I also think Quick Braid shampoo is illegal.

Quic Braid isn't shampoo, it's just a hair spray. I've used it for every single show, including FEI, and my horse has been tested before with no problems. Of everything, not sure how that one would get absorbed because it doesn't touch the skin, only mane hair, which can't absorb chemicals into the body.

I also know that I made sure it was legal when I started showing FEI. It's been a while, but I believe I emailed Exhibitor Labs (the makers of the Quic products) and got their ingredient list for Quic Silver and Quic Braid and double checked it.

gold2012
Apr. 9, 2011, 10:21 AM
When in doubt, you can contact the FEI or the USEF about a given product. They are extremely helpful and far more legitimate than asking someone who has shown at these levels. Otherwise, the safest bet is to not use a bunch of junk anyway--most of it is worthless anyhow. :)

AMEN.

Actually, if you read an earlier post by me, you will find, I did contact the FEI on a supplement we had purchased to ask about an ingredient. After repeated calls/emails to the FEI and not getting any info back, I just didn't use it. I talked with one person out of 7 calls...she said she would call me back. That never happened. So perhaps it has to do with how busy they are at that moment, but I have not found them to be helpful.

As for using a bunch of stuff, we use one shampoo, something for crud if it comes up, fly spray, and really are trying to find something liniment wise for after hard workouts....not a lot of stuff. Never cared for all of it myself.

GotSpots
Apr. 9, 2011, 10:39 AM
The USEF D&M line is really helpful - you can call with questions about particular products, and they are great.

Rubbing alcohol is fine under FEI rules. I regularly set horses up with it after XC. Plain poultice is fine if you use it. My three day kit includes baby shampoo (less drying for the multiple baths you're going to be giving) as well as a spray of rubbing alcohol mixed with quicksilver which I use to rub out green spots. In general, with our FEI horses we try to work with a super knowledgeable FEI vet and make sure we're careful about anything that might have a long half-life. Something like what shampoo we use two weeks out just isn't really something worth focusing on - it's going to be gone long before they get to the event.

Overall, I agree with BFNE re the problems with zero tolerance. I think horses in general would be happier if you could use something like a mild anti-inflammatory after XC (the equine equivalent of a human taking an ibuprofen after a hard run), as is permitted under USEF rules. Moreover, the level of scrutiny goes up as testing becomes more and more sensitive, which can catch folks unaware with unfortunate side-effects, particularly for a horse that metabolizes something unusually slowly. That being said, there are some places where FEI rules make more sense than USEF - I've been at shows where a horse has cut himself, and under FEI rules, the treating veterinarian could declare and then use a topical anesthetic to put a couple of stitches in, whereas under USEF rules they could not.

gold2012
Apr. 10, 2011, 10:09 AM
Thanks Spots...you are awesome...I wonder why they told me alcohol was illegal? We use to use that for our liniment all the time, then quit, after they said that. We mostly just use ice now....but sometimes after a particularily hard training, we like to wrap with something...

Thanks ALL!!!