New oral Sodium Hylauronic (Legend) product. APRIL Update

[findeight]

My vet has recommended a new oral product, LubriSyn, that should replace at least some of those pricey Legend IV shots plus leave a more consistent level in her system on a daily basis.

Theoretically it has solved the absobtion problems that rendered previous versions mostly unused by the horse's system.

Available in an oral syringe or as a gel top dressing on food.
Going with the gel...she will get this month's Legend shot and start on the stuff this week.

We'll see what happens and I will update with pricing details and whether the stuff works or not.

Mare is 16 next month. Hock issues, no lamness and still eager and willing. Had them done twice in 5 years. We have backed her down to 2'6" and are careful about the workload at home.
She will stay on the oral Glucosamines and MSM she's been on for several years, at least for now.

[findeight]

My vet has recommended a new oral product, LubriSyn, that should replace at least some of those pricey Legend IV shots plus leave a more consistent level in her system on a daily basis.

Theoretically it has solved the absobtion problems that rendered previous versions mostly unused by the horse's system.

Available in an oral syringe or as a gel top dressing on food.
Going with the gel...she will get this month's Legend shot and start on the stuff this week.

We'll see what happens and I will update with pricing details and whether the stuff works or not.

Mare is 16 next month. Hock issues, no lamness and still eager and willing. Had them done twice in 5 years. We have backed her down to 2'6" and are careful about the workload at home.
She will stay on the oral Glucosamines and MSM she's been on for several years, at least for now.

[BarbB]

which supp is this and is it OTC?

I posted questions last week about oral HA and got some good feedback on several products, just wondering about this one.

[findeight]

LubriSyn by Halstrum-they have a website listed under their name but I haven't looked at it.

This stuff was recommended to me by a race trainer a few weeks ago (a good one, as in Breeders Cup contenders and winners). He claimed most of the better track guys were now using it instead of the 3 to 4 Legend shots in the month leading up to a race and had great results.

My vet came up with the same recommendation yesterday in passing as he treated another horse. He does sell the stuff but so do others, non perscription.
If I understood correctly my vet wants about $70 for a 2 month supply...and you know he's marked it up.

I'll know more later today as well as when I get that itemized vet bill.

[welshcob]

I looked up LubriSyn and it is marketed by Butler

https://www.accessbutler.com/abc/WAButler/ProductsandServices/New%20Products.asp?mfg=Halstrum

I e-mailed and left a voice mail but haven't gotten an answer about sales rep in my area (Montana).

Anybody else have any info yet??

[findeight]

I'd hoped to have more info...like price but my vet is sick and off the road for a few days.

Probably be next week and then I won't be there to talk with him.

I WILL bump this up with updates periodically when I get the info and as we use the stuff.

[welshcob]

Well I got the scoop and should have my 2 month supply next week. I talked with the Butler sales rep for my area. She knows my vet clinic and said Butler only sells to licensed veterinarians but it does not need a prescription.

The clinic ordered me a 64 dose packet which works out to about about $115.00. Cheaper than a 2 monthly Legend shots. I'm optimistic. I am sure that I could tell a difference in Gryffin's movement after the shots last spring.

Two months should give me an idea, I like the fact it may provide a steady supply of HA in the horse's system.

F8, we'll have to compare notes on our horses progress! My clinic hadn't seem this yet and are of course glad to have a "guinea pig" -- I know they sure do a lot of Legend shots.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Currently waiting for Chris Hoffsis to call me back.

So the product specialist at the company.

Will report more shortly.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by findeight:
If I understood correctly my vet wants about $70 for a 2 month supply...and you know he's marked it up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm. Can I order it from YOUR vet! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Company is putting me in touch with the "manufacturer"

Apparently it is patented, and was developed by a Dr. Steven Allday. Racing people, do you know this name?

As soon as I get more info I'll post it. Does anyone know the significance of the 2.4 Dalton molecular weight they're touting so loudly?

[RedMare01]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally Posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Does anyone know the significance of the 2.4 Dalton molecular weight they're touting so loudly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2.4 Daltons means that the individual molecules are very (very very very) small...they probably mean it will be absorbed easily by the body. My best guess.

Caitlin

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok. Just got off the phone with someone at the company that manufactures the product.

They do NOT get their hyluronic acide from animal sources. It is bacterially manufactured. This is a good thing, I think.

Second, the oral product IS as good/better than the injections. I have placed an order. Now I just want to see how much it is.

The gentleman I spoke with was very knowledgeable about the product as well as finding out more anecdotal information. I HAVE been using HylaMotion. Price of this stuff is going to be a LITTLE bit higher.

Interestingly, he HAS suggested a loading dose of four days, double strength. Let's just see what happens.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We'll see what happens and I will update with pricing details and whether the stuff works or not.

Mare is 16 next month. Hock issues, no lamness and still eager and willing. Had them done twice in 5 years. We have backed her down to 2'6" and are careful about the workload at home.

She will stay on the oral Glucosamines and MSM she's been on for several years, at least for now.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have mine on Yucca, but will take her off for the test. I want to find out how good this stuff is. BTW, he confirmed a lot of the info you already stated...a LOT of racing trainers have their guys on it.

Welshcob and findeight ... can we compare notes? Did either of you get instructions for a loading dose? What's your cost? I'm waiting for my vet's call to find out what mine is.

[petitefilly]

Sorry to be obtuse, but there are many HA gels on the market now, available readily in vet catalogs. This product you mention might be sold by vets, but why would it be any better?

Go to KV vet or Jeffers and see the many others out on the market. HA worked in a mare I own, and the get was relatively cheap, about $15.00 to $20.00 bucks a tube depending on size.

Many have liquid forms you can top dress food with, and even powders are sold the same as GAGS for daily feeding.

Hope your horse is on the mend. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[findeight]

As explained to me...

The Hyalauronics are NOT digested like the glucs, they are absorbed. The molecular weight of this stuff allows easier absorbtion and avoids the "expensive piss" aspect of oral preparations.

My barn manager has tried various oral Hyalauronic preps without finding one that worked even close to the Legend injections. She HAS tried LubriSyn with her personal OTTB (the usual issues) and noticed a big improvement but couldn't get any more of it until now.

We are all eager to see if we get the same result.

I'm thinking the price from my vet will be closer to $70 a month given the area BUT that's still cheaper then the shots and will keep a consistent level in her system.

And again, this is a DAILY feed additive in gel form.

[Oldenburg Mom]

This stuff is, I hope I get this right ... findeight I think I got it ... it's basically Legend in an oral format. And as fingeight said, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Theoretically it has solved the absorption problems that rendered previous versions mostly unused by the horse's system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the problem with the current versions, at least from my conversations. Because this is a smaller molecular weighted product it actually does its job more efficiently.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Yup, that's the way it was explained to me as well. Plus, HA is not joint fluid. It either stimulates or gives the raw materials needed for the body to PRODUCE synovial fluid.

Did I get that right, findeight?

[findeight]

That is what I have been told.

[Oldenburg Mom]

findeight,

Have you started yours yet? Have you received it?

[findeight]

No. Vet is sick. Next week the BM will get the stuff and start her on it.

I will skip the loading dose...but at just twice the normal for 4 days that is really cheap compared to double normal for 30 days with many other products.

I will opt for the Legend shot next week as she starts the Lubrisyn then see if we can back off on those.

You know, my Barn Manager started in Eventing and has always had the knack with the OTTB and other cheap horses. If she used this on her personal, creaky OTTB and thinks it worked? I'd bet you the stuff friggen works.

Just for the record, I am in BIG barn that shows extensively and offers top rate care.

This should be a fair test. We'll see what happens.

[buff4948]

Hum, maybe I should talk to my vet about it. She gave a script for Legends and Adaqaun (sp), I'll wait to talk to her about it.

[findeight]

Adequan MAY be replaced by the oral Glucosamines that are digested rather then absorbed but some products offer more of the various Glucs, read the labels.

An injection is always a good option because you KNOW the horse is absorbing the stuff rather then pissing it out.
If you are just starting this, an injection will get the product where it needs to be a relieve your horse's discomfort faster then any oral. Start wit shots then shift to the orals if your horse is in pain now.

Talk to you vet and specifically ask about the better oral Glucosamines and this LubriSyn. Alot of recent advances in this area.

[War Admiral]

For those in the know on this one, is this useable on ulcer-prone horses? If racing folks are using it, I'm hoping the answer is "yes" but I've got to tell you, I'm starting to resign myself to the fact that Avery (ulcer-prone TB) and oral HA do not mix. I've only tried OTC products with him but I've tried 4 different ones and his tummy gets iffy every time.

So if there's a difference between this stuff and the other OTC oral HA's in that regard, I'd loff to know!

[beaulilly]

Has anyone tried Hyalun? It seems to be 2.4 Dalton weight as well. You start with a loading dose of gel which is $35 for the tube then monthly liquid which is $47.95, these are Canadian prices at at tack store in Calgary. Here is a link;

http://www.hyalun.com/

[welshcob]

Great information everyone!! Interesting about the Canadian Hyalun -- looks very similar.

I haven't seen any reference to a loading dose but will know more when I pick it up and chat with my vets next week.

[findeight]

I would think most of this gets absorbed before it gets to the tummy. There may be a difference in whatever is in the gel, paste or liquid that upsets a tummy so it's worth trying all of them to see if he'll tolerate it.

I now have two bottles of the stuff in hand, one from the vet (still do not know what the charge will be-bill in about 10 days so will post-and a freebie from the race track guy I mentioned. I just spoke to him today and he said even more of the track folks are getting with this product as it seems to work and offers no side effects. That is purely anecdotal of course.

So, my mare is now on it as of yesterday. I will start my 11 year old 16 pound Siamese on it this evening at 1/2 cc..increase to 1 cc if she tolerates it well. Have to use the bottom half of a syringe of course(she won't touch alien food), hope I don't get all over the living room. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Have to work the next few days and won't be posting much if at all but I'll update as we can tell if it works in a week or so.

[Alter Equine]

I'll be joining in on watching this thread with great interst and reporting results. My horse starts on Lubrisyn tomorrow.

[welshcob]

OK F8, if this is ok for your cat, what about for MY back???? Since it isn't made from animal by-products.....

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Lord Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

Apparently it is patented, and was developed by a Dr. Steven Allday. Racing people, do you know this name? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that there are 2 Steve Allday's in the racing world. So this must be the same Steve Allday who used to be a race track vet in California. That is until he was 'disinvited' (for lack of the correct word) from racetracks in that state.

He then moved his practice to Kentucky and became the vet for a small trainer (among others) who had spent decades plying his trade in the middle ranks of the business. The following year, said trainer trains the Eclipse Champion 2 year old colt AND the 2 year old filly, both of humble breeding.

Toward the end of that year, Allday is hired by Frank Stronach as his racing manager and Allday in turn hires said trainer as the private trainer for Stronach's enormous racing empire.

In the meantime, the champion colt and filly move on to other trainers (Hall of Fame trainers) who are unable to replicate their 2 year old success...

I had heard several years ago that Allday was no longer with Stronach. This must be what he has been doing since he left there.

[BelladonnaLily]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
This stuff is, I hope I get this right ... findeight I think I got it ... it's basically Legend in an oral format. And as fingeight said, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Theoretically it has solved the absorption problems that rendered previous versions mostly unused by the horse's system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the problem with the current versions, at least from my conversations. Because this is a smaller molecular weighted product it actually does its job more efficiently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Corta-Flex has a LMW (low molecular weight) HA product that is currently being sold as a trial sample with the regular CortaFlex HA. Is this comparable in terms of molecular weight with this product?

[Saddith]

Someone else brought up this product:

"Hyalun is an oral solution containing hyaluronic acid for oral administration. The hyaluronic acid in Hyalun is one of the purest and highest in molecular weight. Molecular weight is no less than 2.4 million Dalton’s."

Which apparently matches Lubrisyn for molecular weight. What is the difference between the two products? Has anyone tried Hyalun? Why hasn't it caught on since it has been on the market for a year or so?

[Oldenburg Mom]

ACK!

Ok. Supplement confusion is now setting in. And your comments, LHU, do not help either.

This stuff is making me just NUTZ.

Does ANYONE know what they're doing with joint supplements?

[egontoast]

beaulilly, which tack store? Do you know anyone who has tried it?

[canyonoak]

well, I am waiting for the LubriSyn people to get back to me...so ijn the meantime, Ive ordered some Hyalun.

Best price Ive seen is

http://www.americasequinewarehouse.com/

which has the 90 ml size on sale for $82.75, free shipping. (2 or more even cheaper)

so I will report back on Hyalun..and if the LubriSyn people ever tell me how to order their stuff, and they are not wildly expensive, will give theirs a try as well.

I do think that LubriSyn's PR is very savvy--making it hard to get, getting the stuff into the hands of racetrack people, building a mystique for the product...

[beaulilly]

Egontoast, I saw it at the Mill Store in Okotoks. The lady there said she has heard great things about it, people have told her they can cut right down on time between injections. She also said humans are taking it too and say it's great. I am going to try it next month as I just had the injections done last month. My girl will definately let me know if it works! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I was really surprised to see it there as I thought we could not get it in Canada, I've been trying to get my hands on some form of HA for a long time. She said they had had it once then Customs would no longer allow it in the country. They opened the boarder to it again, but I worry it could come and go. If it works it would well be worth stocking up on incase customs changes their mind again.

[egontoast]

Thanks. It might be worth a try.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by canyonoak:
well, I am waiting for the LubriSyn people to get back to me...so in the meantime, Ive ordered some Hyalun.

Best price ..etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That makes the 1-month supply cost--if you buy two--at $26.86, which is very good. The best price I've found for this so far is $29 and change for the 1-month size.

I am so skeptical, though.

HAS ANYONE USED Hyalun?

The only Hyluronic Acid product I can really stand behind is Hylamotion.

[Kinsella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
I doubt that there are 2 Steve Allday's in the racing world. So this must be the same Steve Allday who used to be a race track vet in California. That is until he was 'disinvited' (for lack of the correct word) from racetracks in that state.

He then moved his practice to Kentucky and became the vet for a small trainer (among others) who had spent decades plying his trade in the middle ranks of the business. The following year, said trainer trains the Eclipse Champion 2 year old colt AND the 2 year old filly, both of humble breeding.

Toward the end of that year, Allday is hired by Frank Stronach as his racing manager and Allday in turn hires said trainer as the private trainer for Stronach's enormous racing empire.

In the meantime, the champion colt and filly move on to other trainers (Hall of Fame trainers) who are unable to replicate their 2 year old success...

I had heard several years ago that Allday was no longer with Stronach. This must be what he has been doing since he left there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What was he allegedly "disinvited" for? And, more importantly, what exactly does this have to do with the product in question?

[beaulilly]

Well, I just received a call from Kansas! It was the rep from Hyalun returning my email request for more info! I was wowed by that, in all my years of emailing for more info on a product, only 25% ever email me back and NO one has ever bothered to actually call me waaaayyy up here in Calgary! He said he has heard wonderful things about the Lubrisyn product and felt their Hyalun is on par with them as far as he knows they are manufactured the same way.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by beaulilly:
He said he has heard wonderful things about the Lubrisyn product and felt their Hyalun is on par with them as far as he knows they are manufactured the same way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, theirs is cheaper for sure. Any guarantee... any comment on competitors like HylaMotion?

[Kinsella]

OK, I have been doing some research... Here's what I have found after a preliminary search of information.

Hyalun and LubriSyn are similiar products. Hyalun APPEARS cheaper because the dosage of HA is smaller. LubriSyn's dosage is 3ml HA per dose to Hyalun's 1ml HA per dose. So if you up Hyalun to deliver an equal dosage of HA it becomes the more expensive of the two. And from what I can find, the dosage advertised for Hyalun is what would be appropriate for a large breed dog. HylaMotion is 1.3 million Daltons, as opposed to the 2.4 of LubriSyn and Hyalun, making it a less effective product.

I will be doing more research on the two drugs, but as it stands, my money is with LubriSyn.

Oh, and as for Dr Allday, I could find nothing about him being "disinvited" from CA tracks. I did find one 'infraction' from 1999 - he was reprimanded by the stewards at Turfway for giving an assistant trainer a syringe of vitamins (nothing illegal). For those that don't know racing, you have to understand that trainers CAN NOT have a syringe with a tip or needles AT ALL at the track. They have to cut the tip off of the large dose syringes before using them. Any trainer caught with a needle or syringe will be fined and possible suspended. The only other things I could find were assumptions based on the fact that horses he worked with won. That's bad why?

As for the two 2yo BC winners, they were Countess Diana and Favorite Trick. Countess Diana raced 6 times as a 2yo, finishing 1st 5 times and 2nd once. She had a knee chip removed in Dec of her 2yo year. She went on to run 8 more times, but never returned to her 2yo form - which is not too surprising after a knee surgery. Favorite Trick won all 8 of his races as a 2yo. As a 3yo he ran 8 times, finishing 4 times 1st and once 3rd. Three of the four wins were in the following races: The Jim Dandy Stakes (G2), the Keeneland Breeders Cup Mile (G2) (this is now the big turf mile race at Keeneland), and the Swale Stakes (G3). Not too shabby of a 3yo year.

I'll let you know what else I find out about the drugs.

[CHJoker]

Watching this thread closely!! Thanks guys for so much information.... (This would be a good example of why I hang out on COTH!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kinsella:
OK, I have been doing some research... I'll let you know what else I find out about the drugs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WELL DONE! Bravo. If I have seen an improvement on Hylamotion, this is going to be a miracle drug.

Calling my vet now ...

[CHJoker]

Kinsella,

I was wondering if you could post the link where it says that 1ml HA is the dose for a large breed dog? I haven't seen that anywhere, but I am sure I am not hitting all the right places with my keyword searches, either.

I know the "gold standard" of many oral HA products seems to be 100 mg per serving...

Edited: Thanks Oldenburg Mom!

Here is a link I came across about some people discussing Hyalon
http://forums.horsecity.com/cgi-bin/bb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=019440

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well! The plot thickens!

Just got off the phone with Hyalun. The dosage, per dropper full, is 5 mg.

According to the patent on the product, the therapeutic dosage is .004 mg per pound. That means for a 1000 horse, the dosage would be 40 mgs.

Information supplied on this is FROM LubriSyn, except for the actual dosage of Hylaun, which came directly from Hylaun. Both companies are using the same patent, which is licensed to them.

So they're competitors. And they probably aren't going to have nice things to say about one another.

The one thing that impresses me most about LubriSyn is that it's bio-fermented from bacteria. As opposed to using animal sources.

So. That's the latest from my neck of the woods...

[CHJoker]

"According to the patent on the product, the therapeutic dosage is .004 mg per pound. That means for a 1000 horse, the dosage would be 40 mgs."

Actually, though, with my math (okay, calculator)...

.004 mg/pound x 1000 pounds = 4 mg/dose

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif sooooo....if you had a 1500 pound warmblood, then you might want to give a bit more (6 mg per dropper), but for the average 1000 pound horse...
5 mg/dose would be fine...

So again, does more = better?? Or, does it simply justify a higher price?

Does Hyalon use animal sources? I haven't seen that anywhere?? Is it on the website somewhere, or did the Hyalon rep say that?

I am going to order it...since it is easily available, AND small http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif it should be easy to import!! YEAH!!!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well. CHJoker ... I never said I could do math! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Good questions. More research coming up ...

[CHJoker]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

My dear, why do you think I have a calculator sitting on my desk at all times???

Not because of my "Beautiful Mind", LOL!!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Oooops. Just got the word...it's 0.04 Sorry!!! Which makes sense, actually. 40-45 mgs per dose.

Now, I would be willing to bet that because e.g., HylaMotion is, theoretically, less effective (lower molecular weight) you'd need less product (LubriSyn) for the same--or hopefully better--results.

I don't know. Personally, the proof is in the pudding. I'm going to wait, get mine, try it, then report back.

Anyone get theirs yet?

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by findeight:
If I understood correctly my vet wants about $70 for a 2 month supply...and you know he's marked it up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, can you confirm this? If this is the case, I'm going to order it from your vet! (Can I do that?)

[Critters Everywhere]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by findeight:
If I understood correctly my vet wants about $70 for a 2 month supply...and you know he's marked it up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, can you confirm this? If this is the case, I'm going to order it from your vet! (Can I do that?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too! Me too! My vet wants $70 for a 33 day supply...and she doesn't normally put much mark-up at all on her meds...especially when she really believes they work, like this one!

[Critters Everywhere]

Okay, I have another question on the Hyalun...

I went to this link (http://www.americasequinewarehouse.com/) from earlier in the thread & was trying to figure out how many doses are in the container, assuming the 5 mg/day rate. In the text, it says "5mg/ml of Pure Hyaluranic Acid..." Then on the item description, it says "180 ml bottle". Now, wouldn't that translate into a 180 day supply, not a 90 day supply? Color me TOTALLY confused at this point! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[JackieBlue]

Hey all, I used to work for Bayer (makers of Legend) so I know a thing or 2 about this HA stuff. I'm pressed for time right now, but just wanted to ask if you are all aware that Legend works equally well whether injected in the joint/joints itself or intravenously?
It's absolutely true. One Legend IV injection (4mL) will treat all your horse's joints, no joint inflammation, no risk of synovial infection, no time off, much more affordable when treating more than one joint, ...
I honestly don't know why some vets still insist on injecting into the joint when it can be risky and, with Legend, it is completely unnecessary.
Legend is derived from a bacterial source as well. The cell wall of s. equi. Products derived from animal sources usually come from rooster combs and may have protein contaminants.
Legend will work if injected intramuscularly, as well. It's a tricky thing to discuss because that would be an off label usage, but the product specialist told me when I worked for Bayer that I could inject my dog (IM) with 1cc to help his arthritis. It was like a miracle for him.
The molecular weight isn't really the big deal everyone wants you to believe it is. There are many more important factors.
Anyway, I've got to run. Be back later.

editted to add that 2.4 million daltons is a HIGH molecular weight. The theory is that high molecular weight HA supp leads to greater viscosity of the synovial fluid.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JackieBlue:
There are many more important factors.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please,... educate all of us! I'd LOVE to know more. What IS important?

[RAyers]

Please do a search on this forum for hyaluronic acid. I have listed/described several time how HA works in a joint. It has less to do with "lubrication" and more to do with protecting the physiologic function of the synovium and the articular cartilage. The more important factors include current disease state of the joint, form of the articular surface, presence of destructive enzymes in the joint etc.

Reed

[JackieBlue]

Ok, I could probably do a search and find this out for myself ( I really am trying to get out the door), but, Reed, are you a relation to Jeff Ayers?
He used to train an older girl at my barn when I was a little pony kid in PA. His student cleaned up in the eq and he was kind enough to always answer my questions and to give me great pointers to use with my pony even though I had a different trainer. I really looked up to him and I used to try to ride just like the girl he coached! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[RAyers]

I am not a good enough rider to be related to Jeff Ayers. Anyway, I am a looney eventer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I am just a bone/joint geek at the university. In some of my more recent work we have begun to work with HA polymers to reconstruct the cartilage surface and act as a drug delivery system.

Reed

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAyers:
I have listed/described several time how HA works in a joint. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reed,

I was more interested in the comment that JackieBlue made regarding important factors in the product. ... especially since she specifically mentioned about the molecular weight.

[RAyers]

The product itself is a long chain polysacharride. The higher the weight the longer the chains. A long time ago it was thought that high MW HA had to be used when injecting directly into a joint. Now, we have I.V. and oral routes as well. The thing is that these routes have different metabolic avenues by which to utilize the HA. Studies concerning the how the HA is administered and how well it works in the joint, beyond Legend, don't exist, but the indication is the MW has little to do with how it is utilized. There are plenty of other factors that come into play to determine efficacy, such as those just listed.

Reed

[Rooty]

I am considering starting my horse on Legend and will be following this with interest. Someone mentioned earlier about the oral products causing stomach upset? Is that common? My horse has the constitution of, well, a horse, but I think I might lean more toward the injectible if that's the case but would like some more info.

[BelladonnaLily]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Oooops. Just got the word...it's 0.04 Sorry!!! Which makes sense, actually. 40-45 mgs per dose.

Now, I would be willing to bet that because e.g., HylaMotion is, theoretically, less effective (lower molecular weight) you'd need less product (LubriSyn) for the same--or hopefully better--results.

I don't know. Personally, the proof is in the pudding. I'm going to wait, get mine, try it, then report back.

Anyone get theirs yet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. Now I'm really confused. Which is better, orally, LOW molecular weight or HIGH molecular weight. If LOW isn't as good as HIGH, why is Corta-Flex HA coming out with a new LOW molecular weight? Or am I not even on the same page as you guys? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I thought LOW was easier absorbed?

[RAyers]

BelladonnaLily,

You are in the twilight zone of commercial nutraceutucals. These companies can make any claim about high vs low weight without proof. There are no studies to show absorption in horses. Whatever data is out there is whatever the company wants. At the same time studies such as the clinical one done by Corta-Flex are still VERY subjective (e.g. one vet's lameness is not the same as another's).

You and everyone else are asking the right questions but there is NO data other than that from the studies used to support the FDA approval for Adequan and Legend as to what works.

Reed

[findeight]

I am busy with business travel so haven't seen my horse since she started on the LubriSyn, too soon I think anyway.

I HAVE seen my elderly, tubby kitty. I gave her 1/2 cc on Sat. evening. No side effects or digestive upsets so gave her 1cc Sunday...but had to go out of town and just got back tonite, just gave her 1cc. Kind of early and she didn't get it daily..BUT SHE STOPPED LIMPING behind http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
And she's trotting instead of shuffling up and down the stairs...and it's been a couple of years since she's done that.

She's still creaky but...perhaps we are on the right track?

Will update with progress on both of them.

What will it take to get this approved for us humans??????

[RAyers]

findeight,

It does not have to be approved for humans. It is a nutraceutcal. The FDA has no governance over this so you can eat as much Lubrisyn as you want and the company can say pretty much what they want. The fact they have a patent means nothing. It only means that other companies can not duplicate their mixture. So go for it. If you want to eat it, there is no reason not to. But if anything negative happens you have no real recourse.

For those wondering about the "science" stated on the company's website, they basically state teh findings done by Kawcek et al. in their study examining Legend for the treatment of osteoarthritis. In other words they have not done ANY work of their own. They just take other work and attribute it to their product. And that is legal.

Reed

[Oldenburg Mom]

Reed-

You are the expert here, please, guide us.

I think the issue, for everyone, is "What the heck do we do? Who do we believe?" This company states this, this one says, No THIS! and the average consumer, e.g. MOI! is left looking like a cartoon character wondering who to believe and what to do.

I have one horse with arthritic conditions (RRB) and one horse with NQR issues (NQR).

Thus far, I have used HylaMotion. I have seen improvement in both horses. This is a good thing. Legend and Adequan are, quite honestly, too expensive and require a vet (more $$$). If there is a less expensive alternative that can be given orally, I'd like to know about it. This is why I've tried to follow (and contribute) to this thread.

Neutraceuticals are such a grey area, honestly, I don't know what to believe. You're right, there are very few studies, and personally, I do not have enough of a science background to evaluate whether they (the studies) are meaningful or not. Anecdotal information can be persuasive--e.g., findeight's E.T.K--but are really meaningless. Do I think findeight is making this up? No. But one person's experience on one ETK does not a study make.

So what's a body to do? Other than quit my job and go to Vet school, at some point one has to make a decision. I ask people, like yourself, on this board as they have more experience, education, knowledge.

SO! What would you advise? Help Us, Obi-Wan-Ken-RAyers. You're our only hope! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[welshcob]

Sooooooo. Like f8, we spend our money, dose our critters and if our kitties are more comfortable -- we've lucked out http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

If we can't tell any difference, well, we tried and learned a bit http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I know for my back, Aleve, Advil, Excedrin, Ibuprofins just doesn't do a thing -- they help a lot of people, I need plain old aspirin at high doses -- takes the pain away.

Hopefully we all find something that helps our individual horses.

Thanks to all (so far) for this great information.

Still waiting for our LubriSyn to arrive.....

[Oldenburg Mom]

Welshcob ...

Hon, you've got more guts than 99% of the people on this BB--including me! You're facing Montana winters. That requires the strength of Hercules!

No wonder you have back problems ... it's from shoveling all that snow!

[Critters Everywhere]

I sent an inquiry on the 90 day supply of the Hyalun...this is the response for those that were also puzzled:

Response: Thanks for the great question. Actually, the dosage for both the Hyalun and the Hyalun 90 is still 5mg but the smaller bottle is more concentrated and only 1ml is needed versus the 2ml on the Hyalun 90. We felt that for oral dispensing that we needed to allow 2ml for the horse owner to see the actual
product going into the mouth and also the pump worked more effectively when more fluid was dispensed. A 1 ml dispensing through the long equine tip dispenser did not function well with the pump. Again, the 2ml dispensed through the Hyalun 90 dispenser yields 5 mg just like the more concentrated smaller bottle. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,

Darren Landis
Hyalogic LLC
Edwardsville, KS
1-866-318-8484


My original inquiry: comments: I would like to try your product on a mare with general arthritis, however I'm a little confused about the osage. When reading the description of your 90-day product (Hyalun 90), it says in the description that there is 5mg/ml, but then the product size is listed as 180 ml. Are both these numbers correct? Do you recommend a 10 mg / day dose for the average horse? I was under the impression that the 10mg/day was only for the first three days as a loading dose (per the description of the gel version).

Thank you for your help & clarification!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Critters,

I'm still puzzled as to WHY they'd suggest a doseage of only 5 mg.

&lt;KT shakes her head ...&gt;

HylaMotion is 100 mgs, LubriSyn, 45 mgs. 5 mgs, isn't even in the same ballpark!

Is it me? Am I not getting it?

[CHJoker]

For me, the fact that the patent says that .004 ml per pound is the therapeutic dose, that is the deciding factor.

I work in the pharma industry, and I can tell you that more is not always better. In some case, (depends on the compound) you see serious adverse effects with too high a dosage.

If efficacy is seen with .004 ml per pound, and you give that dosage (ie, for a 1000 pound horse, 4 mg/day) then adding more may or may not be at all advantageous.

Then again, maybe with this type of product, more IS better. But, it seems that if a therapeutic dosage for horses has been established, there is probably something to substantiate that. I really don't know.

Here is an excerpt from the website:

Toxicology: LubriSyn (Sodium Hyaluronate) was administered at 3, 5 and 10 times the recommended maintenance dosage of 45 mg daily for 90 days with no adverse effects.

But, is that 45 mg of pure sodium hyaluronate, or is that 45 mg of PRODUCT? There is a big difference.

Is anyone sure that EACH dose of Lubrisyn has 45 mg of HA?

And, the same question..if it does have more mg of HA, does it make it more effecive?

Does the higher molecular weight have anything to do with absorbtion rates, and perhaps that is why lower molecular weight products have a higher mg content of HA? Because alot of it doesn't get absorbed?

This is confusing. Basically, I want to know, is it necessary to spend more money for the lubrisyn, if you hit the therapeutic dose recomendation with the Hyalun?

[Oldenburg Mom]

The therapeutic dose is .04. I got it wrong the first time, the corrected myself.

Sorry.

[CHJoker]

Okay, here is a link to the patent:

http://www.humanbodyrecon.com/patent.htm

"The effective amount of hyaluronic acid, or a salt or digest thereof, is from about 0.1 .mu.g/kg to about 400 .mu.g/kg of body weight per dose. The warm-blooded vertebrate may be a human, or an equine, canine, or feline species. In one embodiment the method is used to reduce joint pain n a person afflicted with osteoarthritis."

First off..this patent is for human use, it looks like.

Second off... 0.1 mu.g/kg to 400 mu.g/kg is a big difference.

Third... does mu.g/kg = mg? In searching, I found a reference to mu/g conversion to mg

"multiply the serum concentration by the volume of distribution (Vd) and divide by 1,000 to convert (mu)g to mg"

Too complex for me, but obviously, the mu/g and mg are not the same thing.

I am wondering OM, where did you find the therapeutic dosage information??? I can't find it in the patent, on lubrisyn OR Hyalun's website...

Where did you get that specific number.. .04 per pound of body weight?

[Oldenburg Mom]

CH

From the LubriSyn folks. Having said that, in reading the patent I see the therapeutic dose is between 0.1 to 400 .mu.g, which stands for mU/g milliunits per gram (mU/g)

Now, having said that, I would be willing to bet that 400 .mu.g is equal to 0.04 mgs.

Whaddya think?

[CHJoker]

Here is the product info from Legend:

Hyaluronic acid, the conjugate acid of hyaluronate sodium, is extracted from the capsule of Streptococcus spp. and purified, resulting in a form which is essentially free of protein and nucleic acids. Legend Injectable Solution is supplied in 2 mL (20 mg) and 4 mL (40 mg) vials. Each mL contains 10 mg hyaluronate sodium, 8.5 mg sodium chloride, 0.223 mg sodium phosphate dibasic and 0.04 mg sodium phosphate monobasic. The pH is adjusted to between 6.5 and 8.0 with sodium hydroxide or hydrochloric acid. CHEMISTRY:

So, I think that if the oral product is as effective as the injectable (which is the claim, due to the higher molecular weight)

And Legend uses 20-40 mg per dose vials (but are administered only every so often) , then maybe 5 mg per day is comparable? Perhaps it is a good idea to do a "loading dose" ?


Perhaps, though, if 20-40 mg of HA is good for 6 months or more in the horse's body... 5 mg per day is just as effective?

Really, really hard to say. I guess I know the answer.. the only way to be sure would be to do a comparitive trial with horses of the same condition and grade of lameness... one with 5mg, one with 45mg daily.

But, I think I will try the Hyalun for now, and see if I see a difference. I think I will do a "loading dose" for the first few weeks, however...

[CHJoker]

This is what the definition of mu/g


mU/g milliunits per gram (mU/g)

The results of some medical test are reported in milliunits per gram (mU/g).

* A unit is a standard of measurement and a milliunit is one-thousandth of a unit.


I am such a loser when it comes to the metric system. So, I think...well, I think one thousandth of a gram is a milligram.

I just would wonder how exactly this "therapeutic dosage" has been established, especially when a rep from a new competing product is the one who states it.

Whaddya think?

Especially since, from what I have read... the HA doesn't actually "replace" the HA in the synovial fluid, it acts as a stimulant for the body to produce more.

Just how much stimulant is needed? (ie, binds to the receptor sites of the cells manufacturing HA?) Is the extra just peed out?

[Oldenburg Mom]

Hey, I think that's great. errrr. I just saw your second post. I think the information is coming from the patent, not the company, although the company is the messenger.

But as far as that goes, we're both getting info from each company ... perhaps we can meet somewhere in the middle. Manufacturing technique for Legend is the same as LubriSyn ... what's Hyalun saying about theirs?

I'm just about the start mine on the LubriSyn, taking her OFF the Hylamotion. We can do a comparison!!! COOL!

I've also been using some bute on an ad hoc basis. Have you? I am going to discontinue ANY bute. The only other supplement I have her on is Yucca.

Let's make sure we compare notes after a week. I am going to do a loading dose too.

Wow, I feel just like a scientist (kidding.) WHERE'S MY WHITE LAB COAT????

[CHJoker]

LOL, we can definately compare notes, but scientifically, there would really be no merit.

I have no idea the condition of your horse, the underlying reasons for varying lameness, etc... and vice versa for my horse....

It could literally be comparing apples to oranges. Just because I saw results, actually, wouldn't even say much..

I guess what I would have to do is try one product first, and on the same horse, after a "washout" period, try the second product on the SAME horse, and compare results....

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHJoker:
LOL, we can definately compare notes, but scientifically, there would really be no merit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one I had figured out ... but it's still going to be fun!!!

[CHJoker]

I agree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh, and I wrote to Hyalun to ask their opinion on the matter...

I have a feeling though..alot of this is rather "unexplored" territory...

WE are PIONEERS in the new frontier of horse health....

Or one of the famous "there's a sucker born every minute".

But then again...No guts, No glory!!! For 40 bucks plus shipping, it is worth a small "test" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

high five, fellow Pioneer-er (aka suck-ah http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif!)

I've got some technical stuff coming this afternoon via fax--I'll share as soon as it arrives.

In the meantime, we need more info on your Guinea pig! What's her Chief Complaint? What is she on? For how long? Any bute? etc. etc.

[findeight]

According to my vet, the injectable Legend does not remain in the horse's body very long. Certainly the feeling at the racetrack where they give a shot a week leading up to a big race or in show barns where they get it the week before a major competition.
Even tho he makes more off the Legend shots then the LubriSyn, he is recommending the oral product as better overall then a shot.

We'll see as I said earlier.

Fat cat is not turning back into a kitten, thank God-16 pounds of acrobatic Siamese would be a bit much. But she is moving more comfortably off her "hocks" and moving more then she has for awhile.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Hey findeight ... since you've actually GOT the stuff, what's it like? Did you taste it? Is it gloppy? Easy to measure? Are you top dressing or did you get the syringe thingie?

[WWCountry]

I've been reading this thread with much interest. I have a question re: use of the Lubrisyn vs use of Legend. For example, The day before each show my horse gets a shot of Legend. Cost is $67. If I went with the Lubrisyn, (which seems more cost effective) would I start it just before a competition or would my horse live on it? Anyone know?

[Alter Equine]

4 days on Lubrisyn, 2 rides, no issues, no change to report. $122 for a 2 month supply.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Alter Equine,

"no change to report" ... what do you mean?

WWCountry, haven't a clue. Ask the company???

[JackieBlue]

In answer to someone's question on the previous page, Hyalun also is derived from S. equi, a streptococcal bacteria.
Are the Lubrisyn people really saying that their oral form beats Legend injectable? I would find that very surprising.

[Oldenburg Mom]

I've heard mixed about Hyalun--chicken source mostly. But whether or not that's true--who knows? They do not specifically say on their website it's from the streptococcal bacteria--unless I missed it (entirely possible.) HylaMotion, I never looked but am looking now but would guess it's the chicken.

[JackieBlue]

I said that Hyalun is derived from Strep equi because I spoke with a product specialist at the company and had all of my questions, including this one answered completely and professionally.
I would not say such a thing if I could not back it up and I think the "Hyalun folks" would be understandably upset by a "chicken source" rumor.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Jackie -

As I said in my post, "But whether or not that's true--who knows?" meaning, that's what I have heard.

As Reed pointed out so accurately,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is a nutraceutcal. The FDA has no governance over this so you can eat as much Lubrisyn as you want and the company can say pretty much what they want. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no axe to grind for EITHER company. Actually, I could care less. My only interest is whose product is going to do the best job for my horse, at the least expensive price. And that includes the one I've got him on now, which is the Hylamotion.

Findeight's original post<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My vet has recommended a new oral product, LubriSyn, that should replace at least some of those pricey Legend IV shots plus leave a more consistent level in her system on a daily basis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

was where this thread started. And at some point on page 2 Hyalun information was added. I certainly am not impugning your information--merely citing what I've heard.

[Fessy's Mom]

Not entirely relevant, but pertaining to the question of whether or not Hyalun or Lubrisyn claims to be better than Legend injections, when I stopped at the Conquer booth at Equine Affaire, that was indeed their claim - that daily or every-other-day Conquer was better (more effective) than Legend injections because it maintained a consistent level of HA in the system. I wonder if this is also their (lubrisyn's) argument?

And to take this in an entirely different direction, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif has anyone ever done Cosequin and Legend/Conquer/Lubrisyn together? How is Lubrisyn different from Conquer I wonder?

Like many of you, my main goal is effectiveness at the best price. And although (on my vet's recommendation) I've gone to using Cosequin alone - didn't think to ask about combining it with Conquer - I wonder why Conquer hasn't come up in this discussion. I found that for about $16 a tube (60cc) that the maintenance dose of 5cc every other day works out to only about $20.00 a month. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif MUCH cheaper than, what, $60.00 a month for the Lubrisyn?

Edited: Checked back on the Conquer site and it says to give the 5cc dose of Conquer daily (50 mg HA) so it's $40.00 a month. Still cheaper...but is it as effective?

[McVillesMom]

Well, I ordered Lubrisyn today (I work for a small animal vet, so I get it at cost). I figured, can't hurt, might help...my horse has no "active" problems at this point, but he's a 13 year old TB with 33 starts hoping to move up to Training level eventing this year...I'm ALL about preventive maintenance! I definitely noticed a difference in him last year when we were doing Legend/Adequan injections, so I figured it was worth a try. (BTW, he is on Cosequin and MSM also, which I will continue).

Reading this thread, I was a little confused about dosage...per the website (http://www.halstrum.com/) for Lubrisyn, the daily dosage for the liquid would be 15 mL, or 1/2 ounce (giving 45 mg/dose of sodium hyaluronate). I ordered the 16 oz aqueous gel, so we'll try it for a month and see what happens.

[LMH]

OH

My

GAWD...

Can someone PLEASE give me a summary of what you have discovered...is the jury still out?

Are we talking about just using oral HA to REPLACE other joint supps...or to add to the ever increasingly expensive list of things to put in the bucket?

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
OH

My

GAWD... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I know. And we're just the poor suckers trying to figure it out. Lord have mercy, what's a body to do?

[LMH]

Well OM, can I ask you to keep me informed when there is a decision reached?

I for the life of me CAN'T add this to my list of barefoot, nutrition and saddle fit... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[CDE Driver]

Sorry to be so uninformed, but what is the differance between Legend and Adequan (sp)?

[Oldenburg Mom]

CDE - I haven't a clue. The only thing I know is that they're expensive.

LMH ... well it looks like we're sorting ourselves into two camps. The Hyalun and LubriSyn.

I would stay tuned to this thread over the next two weeks as we all compare notes.

I'd also like frequent updates on findeight's ETK.

[Alter Equine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Alter Equine,

"no change to report" ... what do you mean?

WWCountry, haven't a clue. Ask the company??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My apologies for being so vague. My horses' hocks are a study in bone spavin. He'd had a pretty demanding life before I got him 2+ years ago. His job now is to tote me around the 3' ring and be as cute as possible. He's 14 and is sound, stiff behind but even. His one hock has become so fused that we can't inject it. Adequan works quite nicely for him. I'm hoping that Lubrisyn will help him out.

As of last night, he's been on it for 4 days. I've ridden him twice. No ill effects at all but I have noticed no change in his movement. Of course it is very early days.

I'll keep watching this thread, as it is fascinating and informative and report how my horse responds.

Thanks for all the great info.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Alter,

Are you doing the loading dose for one week? That's what I was advised.

[McVillesMom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CDE Driver:
Sorry to be so uninformed, but what is the differance between Legend and Adequan (sp)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Legend is injectable hyaluronic acid. It can be given intra-articular or intravenously. Adequan is injectable glycosaminoglycan (similar to glucosamine) that is given intramuscularly.

I think http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Old_Guy]

Happened into your discussion and read the postings regarding Lubrisyn. We have maintained several show horses on Lubrisyn since October, and have eliminated joint injections completely. The comparisons to other preparations on a science basis may offer an explanation as to why the Lubrisyn product is so effective, but the point is, in my barn it has made a tremendous difference. We have weaned show horses that were injected regularly or were receiving weekly IV HA and Adequan to keep them sound enough to train and show, off of injectable support completely, and now use primarily oral Lubrisyn. The cost and management benefits are gratifying to say the least, and there must be a healing effect in the daily use, because our horses keep getting better...more symetrical in their cadence and stronger on both leads. It seems to have an anti prostaglandin/anti inflamatory effect as well, keeping the horses more comfortable and in a better frame of mind.
If spending thousands on maintaing show horses makes you an expert, my anemic bank account is a sign that I qualify. It works...try it and you'll spend more time riding and less time debating the science.

[Alter Equine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Alter,

Are you doing the loading dose for one week? That's what I was advised. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume my horse is getting the loading dose as I am not giving it directly - my Coach/BM is a smart cookie and started 4 on it at the same time - so I am fairly certain she is following the directions.

Of course this damn weather provides a bit of a challenge, sorting out the ways of going between normal and the effect of plummeting temperatures.

Old Guy - that's that kind of stories we've heard about the success of Lubrisyn and why I have my fingers crossed that it will prove that effective for my guy. Thanks.

[CHJoker]

Old Guy,

No offense, of course, but you sound alot like an advertisement! I would most certainly hope that you are a real Lubrisyn customer, and not a retailer of the product...

What I really want to know is how the Hyalun and the Lubrisyn stack up.

1. same ingredients
2. same molecular weight
3. The ONLY difference seems to be in the mg content of HA per dose. (5 mg vs. 45 mg per dose) unless you do the hyalun gel, which contains 6x the mg of a regular dose...ie, 30 mgs.

So, the bonus question of the day is:

Is there a therapeutic dose recomendation from any study? Is 5 mg per day as effective as 45 mg per day? Long term?

What I may end up doing is trying the Hyalun, and see if there is any difference. Then, try the Lubrisyn, and see if there is any difference. It is worth the extra money if there is a dramatic difference... but if not...well...

Oh, OM, about my horse. No major problems. that might make seeing a difference hard. Just arthritis in the knee, and a bit stiff sometimes. But, if it seems to make him more comfortable, in general, I hope I will notice.

Even if I see nothing with both products, I will probably go back the the least expensive, and give it just for preventative purposes.

My husband is convinced I take better care of my horse than I do of myself. Maybe he is right.

And come to think of it, maybe I WILL try some of that stuff (HA). I have an old knee injury that sometimes bothers me. I wonder?

[canyonoak]

well, Ive ordered Hyalun 90 and ive had a LOOOONG talk with the people at Hyalun--

toll free 1 866 318 8484

and am waiting (waiting, waiting) for the LubriSyn people to get back to me..

it sounds like Hyalun and LubriSyn are EXTREMELY similar in terms of composition.

Only the ad campaigns seem to differ&lt;g&gt;

Conquer appears to be differnt in composition, aaccording to the Hyalun guy,..

anyway, will give Hyalun a try and LubriSyn as well if they ever tell me how to order it..

[Lord Helpus]

This is all very interesting and I will follow it closely for the next 4 weeks. That is how long I have to go on the combination of Conquer/HylaSport I am using now.

[Side question: Are the people who mention using HylaMotion actually using HylaSport, which is the new name for the product? Or are there 2 different products?]

I did not intend to double up on the HA, but I had been using the HylaSport and then my trainer started the Conquer. The horse started moving better than he had in over 2 years -- lower head, lifting his back, really swinging fron the shoulder and letting his spine move freely.

That is on 200mg of oral HA a day.

And I ordered the product recommended on p. 1 (can't remember the name right now) that has 250 mg of HA/day for Sam who is at home now and I needed something easy for the farm sitter to add to his feed.

How/why am I so happy with giving this huge dose of HA? Am I really giving 5x the optimal dose?

[CHJoker]

MMMM..the molecular weight of the HA determines how much actually is absorbed by the horse (as is my understanding)

therefore... the dosage (mg) required depends on how much of the HA is actually absorbed.

If the molecular weight is high enough (2.4 million daltons seems to be the goal), then it would seem that less mg of HA per serving would be needed to be effective...

So, it would seem... "optimal dose" depends on more than just the mg per serving content...

The hylasport HA is a lower molecular weight than the hyalun or lubrisyn HA(which are both 2.4 m daltons)

I don't think that the optimum dosage of this 2.4 m dalton HA has really been established. Only time will probably tell. And your fellow COTHers, of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Saddith]

Hylasport and Hylamotion are two different products.

Hylasport is marketed by Horsetech - and Hylamotion is marketed by Vitaflex. Hylasport is a combination joint product containing Glucosamine, MSM, Chondrotion and HA, where Hylamotion is just HA.

I would think that even though Hyalun and Lubrisyn seem similar, they probably aren't. The dosage is a big factor to consider as well.

This may be a dumb question, but has anyone considered feeding the IV Legend? I mean, it would be very cost prohibitive, but is there some reason why you couldn't? Would it make them sick?

[CHJoker]

excerpt from : http://www.colostate.edu/depts/equine/graduate/orthopedics/questions/tjd.html

"We recently completed an experimental investigation of intravenously administered HA using a carpal chip model with the horses exercised on a treadmill. Twelve horses were used and six received 40 mg of Legend intravenously on days 13, 20 and 27 after chip fracture and six horses were treated similarly with a placebo of physiologic saline. Seventy-two days after surgery, the joints subjected to osteochondral fragmentation had increased synovial fluid total protein, glycosaminoglycan and prostaglandins E2 levels compared to contralateral joints without fragments. They also had increased synovial membrane inflammation. With treatment with intravenous HA, there were significantly reduced levels of synovial fluid total protein and prostaglandin E2 compared to joints with fragments in nontreated horses and also reduced synovial membrane cellular infiltration and vascularity (Fig 11a-d). Last but not least, horses treated with intravenously administered sodium hyaluronate were also determined to have a reduced degree of lameness compared to nontreated horses. We also showed no deleterious effects on articular cartilage.


The results of this study were very impressive but we still don't know the mechanism as to why intravenous HA is achieving benefit.The time that HA lasts in the blood stream is extremely short, so we assume at this stage that the beneficial effects must be due to the HA localizing in the synovial membrane and working through receptors stimulating other events. We do know that the synovial membrane has an excellent blood supply so that intravenous administration may provide more access to the synovial membrane cells than intra-articular administration. "
********************************************

Now, this is interesting, because apparently, it is not the HA itself that is providing relief..ie, you are not "replacing" hyralonic acid in the joints. There seems to be some sort of "reaction" by the synovial membrane cells to the presence of the HA, and THAT is what is causing the benefits observed.

So, could oral HA be just as effective? There haven't been many studies done, but that doesn't mean that it isn't effective.

Even if all of the HA is "absorbed" before it passes the stomach, that could theoretically be good, couldn't it? Absorbtion into the blood stream seems to be the goal....if intravenous reaches more "synovial cells" than intraarticular...I wonder how many cells the oral route could effect?

probably, like many oral/intravenous medicines (ie, antibiotics, etc), the oral route would be slower acting... as it must pass through the stomach and then into the bloodstream...but long term...it could be as effective?

And then again, what is the "effective" dosage considered to be??

Ahh...back to the search.

[Fessy's Mom]

That certainly seems to support the argument I mentioned in my other post about the rep for Conquer telling me why they believe their product works better than Legend - because by giving it daily you're able to maintain a higher level of the HA in the body. Makes sense. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[CHJoker]

15
Sakakibara Y; Miura T; Iwata H; Kikuchi T; and others
Effect of high-molecular-weight sodium hyaluronate on immobilized
rabbit knee.
Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Tokyo Kouseinenkin Hospital, Japan.
Clin Orthop 1994 Feb;(299):282-92
Unique Identifier: MEDLINE 94163864

Abstract:

Experimental osteoarthrosis of the knee joint was induced in
rabbits using a polyethylene binding brace. A 1% solution of
sodium hyaluronate (HA) of molecular weight 1.73 x 10(6) (HA-173)
was administered intraarticularly at a dosage of 0.1 ml/kg body
weight twice a week. Changes in articular cartilage and synovial
membrane, and joint contracture were compared with a saline
control group at intervals throughout a six-week period of
immobilization. In all groups, articular cartilage degeneration
and joint contracture progressed with time but were inhibited by
the administration of HA-173. Additionally, the results of a 1%
solution of HA of molecular weight 9.8 x 10(5) (HA-98), a 1%
solution of HA of molecular weight 2.02 x 10(6) (HA-202), and
saline, each administered twice a week for five weeks at a dose
of 0.1 ml/kg body weight, were compared. It was clear that the
articular cartilage degeneration was significantly inhibited by
HA as compared with saline, and that the effect was more potent
with the higher molecular weight, HA-202, than with HA-98.
Furthermore, joint contracture was inhibited by HA, and the
effect was more potent with the higher molecular weight, HA-202,
than with HA-98.
******************************************

Of course, this test is on rabbits, not horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But still interesting...

[RAyers]

CHJoker,

The study you site has nothing to do with oral administration of HA either. The HA was injected directly into the joint (intraarticular administration). Thus you can not equate any of this to the products that are being discussed here.

Reed

[CHJoker]

Rayers,

I respectfully disagree that it has NO interest or relevance, in that, the molecular weight of the intraarticular version on rabbits seems to be more effective. No, of course it doesn't say that the oral version of the same formulation would yield the same results... but I think everyone knows that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I most certainly did not state ANYWHERE that any of this information EQUATES anything.

No studies that I am aware of, or can find anywhere, actually compare oral HA to IV or intra articular HA, or directly compare molecular weights of oral products..although I have heard plenty of claims. I did, in fact, find a summary stating there seems to be no difference in IV HA products of differing molecular weights administered to equines. However, I couldn't find the complete research paper. ORAL versions simply haven't really been researched, it seems.

However, In order to believe that these studies have NOTHING to do with the oral form of HA is to believe that the molecules of HA are destroyed completely when given orally to a horse, and rendered useless. The form (molecular weight, mg content) of some oral HA products are the same as the IV version, so the key question is... is the oral form absorbed into the bloodstream as fully as the IV version is? Are they absorbed at all? What mg content and molecular weights are the most effective? Because, if the oral version of the same product (IV) IS proven to be absorbed as fully, then, YES, these studies have ALOT of relevance.

I have to say, I am also wondering a bit about your background on this particular subject? Do you/have you work(ed) for any major brand promoting their IV product, or any oral HA products? Do you do research for any particular company, which could have a stake in producing/marketing HA?
You seem to know an awful lot about HA for a layperson, and that is why I ask http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Let's face it... no maker of an IV HA product in their right mind is going to do a direct comparitor with an Oral HA product, unless they were 100 percent convinced their product was superior. These tests may be taking place behind closed doors, but no way would they be published, so long as they were finianced by vested interests.

So, that leaves the makers of oral products to substantiate the claims, and as we all know, this is very, very expensive, and why should they?? Word of mouth can be very effective for these types of products. We are not the only ones having these types of conversations!!

So basically, we will all have to wait for unbiased research into this area. Or, try it on our own horses, and see what happens.

[RAyers]

CHJoker,

Check my profile. I am a university researcher specializing in bone and joint replacement. I have also have extensive research experience in getting drugs and devices through the FDA.

The questions you ask are good questions and those should be directed at these companies. Consumers need to hold these companies accountable for their claims about their products. When they realize that they are dealing with an educated client they may finally use some money and start trying to figure out what is really happening. And that will make life better for every horse.

What frustrates me is that companies such as those listed here (as well as many others) get away with making claims that their product does this and that without so much as a real study. They take other research such as the study you mention and directly equate it to their product when there is still no understanding aobut how things are broken down in the horse's gut. To me this can be very misleading.

Yes, we as consumers have to try it on our own horses, but at the same time we need to be sure we do not perpetuate the misuse of research that has little to do with the product.

Reed

[CHJoker]

"Extensive research experience in getting drugs and devices through FDA"?

What do you mean by this??

As you and I know, but everyone else may not...the process for approval from the FDA for drugs and devices (I am assuming human use) starts with an IND (assuming a new, unresearched compound). Then the clinical trials begin, and the information is submitted to the FDA. Then approval is granted or denied. ALOT simplified here, but I am sure you are aware of the process. This is usually done by a pharma or device making company...not University researchers, unless they happen to also be employed by said company. But the actual process is usually handled by the Regulatory affairs department of a company, in close collaboration with the Clinical research department, in medium and larger companies. In very small companies, this is done by whoever gets together the paperwork! But, the point being, it is done by a company which would like to get a new drug/device approved.

So I must ask...Do you provide research services for any particular company? Because I would wonder why a University Professor? Researcher? would be applying regulary to the FDA for approval for products. What a University researcher most commonly MAY be providing to a company is serving as an "investigator", ie, conducting a clinical trial (for compensation) for a company.

(Edited to add) More specifically, after reading your profile, it seems you are a professor at the University of Colorado, and Colorado State University conducted the study I cited using Legend intravenously. Did you, by any chance, work on this trial??

I fully understand your frustration as a researcher, but I don't actually think any of us acting as consumers are "perpetuating any misuse of research". I agree, the companies that market many "nutraceutical" products are making some unsubstantiated claims, in some gray areas (like absorbtion rates/efficacy of oral HA). But, we as consumers KNOW this, or at least, we should. Also, oral HA, through toxicology studies, HAS been proven to be non toxic. So, really, all we as consumers have to lose is our hard earned cash. And considering what other junk we waste our money on...is this SOOO bad? you try it, it doesn't work, you stop giving it! But, what if it does work?? (uh..safe bet Bayer wouldn't be so thrilled about this possibility).

It always depends on what side of the fence you sit, whether this is beneficial or not. Like it or not, research is published and made available to all, and this DOES, in the long term, often equate good things for the consumer. It doesn't really make sense for new researchers in a well studied area to re-invent the wheel, does it??

For the Companies that manufacture products, and the people who develop them, this could be frustrating. BUT, as CONSUMERS, on products for our HORSES, this could be OK. We might also open doors for research into human use of oral HA (research grants are easier to obtain for humans!) if oral HA for equine/canine use proves to be widely regarded as effective.

The fact is, the costs rise dramatically on a product as soon as research is required for a product to be approved and sold to the public. That is one of the reasons why IV legend costs SO much more than an oral, besides needing a vet to administer it. Bayer is a HUGE drug company, and they sure aren't running a charity, and the research performed is incredibly expensive. (In case anyone hasn't figured it out, I work in the pharma industry, but not for Bayer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). And remember, if Oral HA was required to be researched first and proven effective and marketed as a DRUG, it would also be a hell of alot more expensive than what it is now.

[Bea]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHJoker:
so the key question is... is the oral form absorbed into the bloodstream as fully as the IV version is? Are they absorbed at all? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Months ago I looked into the oral HA product Conquer. If I remember correctly the co cites a study showing high and sustained levels of HA in the bloodsteam after administration of this oral HA.

However, when I tracked the source of that study. IF I remember correctly it's linked somehow with a human study regarding RA. Presence of HA in the bloodsteam in humans is a bad sign. It means the joints are leaking synovial fluid.

So, I was stymied at that point. CHJoker, by the fact that I'm not sure if your above question is the correct one to focus on. These companies are using presence of HA in the blood as a good thing. In fact I wondered if it might mean the exact opposite. It remains in the blood, never getting into the joint.

[CHJoker]

mmm.bea, not at all! The research on the IV (INTRAVENEOUS..ie, blood stream) Ha shows SAME/BETTER effect as the intraarticular version (according to the first study I cited). So, if the oral is getting into the bloodstream at a good concentration, this is EXCELLENT news for the chances of oral HA efficacy for horses.

The actual HA seems to stay in the bloodstream a VERY short time. that is why it is suggested that it is more of a chain reaction type influence of HA that makes it effective...acting on the synovial membranes themselves, not just in the joint!

Remember, the full mechanism of action of HA (IV, intra articular, oral) is not fully understood, it seems! At the end of the day, what determines efficacy is NOT the concentration of HA in the blood (although, this seems to indicate it IS being absorbed) BUT the level of pain relief the product provides!

And IF oral HA IS able to be utilized by the horse, then the next question is...at what dosage is the maximum benefit seen?

[CHJoker]

This just occurred to me, I am not sure why I did not think to ask it before...

But, Rayers, are you aware of any independent upcoming studies comparing oral HA commercial products? I would think that tax funded educational facilities would be able to conduct such unbiased testing...but maybe that is naive? Is not enough funding provided for such studies? How do things work at your University? Because the exploration of oral HA products would seem to be a very relevant topic for most horse owners, although, probably most of the producers of such products wouldn't be able to pay research fees. But I would bet a few would provide the product at no cost to the researchers.

Could you explain to us how a research topic gets chosen by the University to perform? Could we, as horse owners, ask Universities and other research organizations to perform these studies, and would we be listened to??

I just think...well, if a research facility already had the horses from say, the Legend trial, standing around munching hay after the trial ended, and you had some easily obtainable oral HA products...Why not have a go?? Do universities sign contracts with Drug companies they do research for, promising for example, not to do these kinds of studies?? I honestly have no idea, I am just wondering.

thank you in advance for the answers!! I am not attacking you, I promise...I am just wondering why so little research on oral HA products have taken place, especially since they have been around for awhile now...

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok. Here we go gang. LubriSyn arrived today.

Tomorrow will be the last dose of HylaMotion. It will be in the morning. Monday evening she will receive her first loading dose.

She was a little NQR today. Not enough to not exercise, but enough that I noticed a LITTLE favouring. Just a little.

Reports will be daily starting Tuesday.

[McVillesMom]

I should get mine tomorrow as well...I'll report back too. We went for a ride in the park today consisting of 8 miles, trot/canter sets, so hopefully I've stressed him! We'll see what happens.

[findeight]

Had an early bird flight on Sunday moring and caught an infomercial for Conquer HA FOR PEOPLE.

While it is an infomercial and Chad Everett is still cute but just played a doctor on TV it did a good job with explaining things.

BTW its a soft gel, 2 a day. 4 daily the first month then 2 and possibly one. It did not mention exact amounts..and I recall it was priced at about $38 but you got 2 months worth.

Interesting that the first demo was of a farrier wrestling with an unwilling mare and many other testimonials were obviously horse people.

Any way...this infomercial explained how HA works to help the body increase what they called the "moisture content inside the joints"
Very simplistic but maybe that will help with understanding the concept.

My vet feels that the glucosamines found in the other preps are equally important as they provide the actual building materials as does an overall balanced ration. He feels they are best used together instead of exclusively.

You have to realize that no product is going to miraculously reverse underlying problems and also that it will take awhile to see any improvement. So give it some time and evaluate things like workload and footing as well.

Fat cat is still moving very easily behind and I think 1cc about 2 times a week will keep her that way. I use a 3cc syringe and just shoot it into the corner of her mouth, no way she'll let me get that close if I try to do it more often. She'll turn up her nose if it goes on the food.

.....and YES I know what the Lubrisyn tastes like-the glue on envelopes http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[DMK]

Yes, yes, Reed... do tell - what IS your background? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'll just be back here in the cheap seats reading my Complete Farside collection and keeping an eye on the peanut gallery... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[RAyers]

CHJoker,

I understand you are not attacking. You are asking well considered questions. What you and others must realize is that the mechanisms of arthritis as well as the function of synovial fluid are still subject to debate by researchers. If you really think about it, synovial fluid has little to do with the actual movement of the joint since it is cartilage on cartilage. The HA in the synovial fliud may act as a lubricant but studies have shown that the shear functions of synovial fluid can not account for the reduction in friction.

Another thing to realize is that companies can not fund university professors. They are state employees. Therefore any money from companies go to paying for equipment and the stipends/tuition of my graduate students. Yes we can hire professors from industry but then they do not get paid from the university.

At least in Colorado, the universities are not sufficiently funded by tax money. We receive less than %9 of our money from the state. Research topics come from companies seeking to get preclinical data BEFORE they go to the FDA for an IND or from funding agencies such as NIH and NSF that have their own research agendas. FYI it costs $150,000,000-$300,000,000 to just get through the animal studies. To get through human trials it is closeer to $1,000,000,000.

In most true research studies the horses are euthanized for harvesting of the tissues. Thus we do not have horses hanging around.

A small study on horses such as the one you mention by Kawcek et al. is about $300K. Thus they are not cheap. But this is the work that has to be done to really define what HA does in the body. Clinical studies, such as those done by Michigan State, are too subjective and do little to actually define what is happening in the body.

By the way I am not associate with any drug companies. I have worked for Amgen and have done studies for Chiron though (none associated with joint work). My funding comes partially from NASA.

[egontoast]

Purely non scientific observation here but a day or so after my horse has his IV Legend, his legs are clean. Little puffies and any slight tendon fillings gone. This suggests to me that it does something other than replace synovial fluid.

[titan]

I have a dog on the Conquer K9 while we debate about the different ligament surgeries. She has at least partials tears in both knees but has been symptom free on Rymadil & Conquer K9. It is 12mg HA per capsule plus the Glucosamine HCL & Chondroitin Sulfate. I liked it for the combination as F8 mentioned above. The capsules are identical to the Conquer HA for humans that I purchased last year - same concentration just 3/day for peeps and 1 or 2/day for dogs according to the label. FTR - I never took the human ones, the dog started them when she finished her 60 K9 capsules. So, sorry that I cannot comment on their effectiveness in humans but the dog has had no adverse effects.

[Cowgirl]

Egon...it has been explained to me that, in addition to what it does for the joints, IV Legend has an anti-inflammatory effect. This is why my vets sometimes suggest a series after a horse has had a major injury, if the horse is not on a maintenance program with it.

I have tried Conquer and HylaMotion to try to use the orals instead of Legend shots. I felt that they helped, but I found the Legend much more effective. So I learned how to give the Legend shots myself to save some $$. I give the Legend monthly, and daily he gets Corta RX HA, which costs me about $22 a month to feed. It has 25 mg HA per dose as well as triple strength Corta-Flx. I did notice that, with giving the daily oral, I now can't tell when he needs his Legend shot...he stays pretty supple all the time.

My lameness guru vet's special recipe for soundness is Legend IV, MSM and fatty acids. He is now promoting a "joint" supplement that was developed by researchers at CSU that is primarily EFAs. My sister is using it on her very arthritic 23 year old arab with great results (he also gets Legend IV) and she has discontinued the Corta Rx HA. The EFAs (most come from flax and flax oil) apparently reduce inflammation and help build connective tissue.

I pay $53 per dose for my Legend. It's really effective for my horse so I see no reason to play around with something else.

[Honestly Riding]

FWIW, since someone else mentioned dogs....our show dog is on supplements to "protect" her joints and they include a "total EFA" pill as well as Fish oil....our breeder even takes the supplements herself and swears by them...don't know if any of the dog supplements are also applicable to horses or in what doses but it might be worth asking a vet their opinion......FWIW......

[CHJoker]

Rayers,

Thank you for your honest and full "disclosure".

I really do appreciate it, and your knowledge on the subject is invaluable, and thank you for sharing your opinion with us.

Yes, (sigh) I KNOW how expensive the human trials are. A million dollar trial is not a big one, as you well know. The research costs are INCREDIBLE, and this IS funded by private companies, not the government (expect in some cases, but the majority of research is paid privately).

So, as I know all too well... and I stated before... It all comes down to where you sit, on which side of the fence. If you work for a pharma company, or are a researcher, your perspective is VERY different from the health aid worker stationed in Africa watching people die every day from malnutrition or AIDS, or the poor soul sitting beside her dying mother's bedside. Or the person with no insurance, trying to get the drugs he/she needs to live.

Drug companies (hell, ALL companies) are in business to make a profit... not charity work. They MUST make a profit, because they need the money. Research is expensive, marketing is essential, there are employees (Like ME!) to pay, and share holders to make happy. The company I work for just scrapped a multi million dollar trial. Our stock tumbled. C'est la vie!

Yes, you see the "blockbusters" on the market, but you don't see the failures, of which there are MANY in this industry. But the costs associated aren't refunded when a trial fails!

It is a very complex, multifaceted issue, and certainly won't be solved by me! So, I will get back on topic.

Please, those who try these HA products, do let us know your findings!! We are going to have to pull together, and conduct our own "clinical trials", however unscientific they may be.

Until the nutriceutical companies come up with 300 K to do it. I won't hold my breath http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[CHJoker]

WEll, here is the pdf file reprint of the "Horse Journal" articles regarding nutraceuticals and specifically HA.
Doesn't included info about Hyalun OR Lubrisyn, but very interesting background info on other products, and "trials" conducted by Horse Journal

http://www.kinetictech.net/HorseJournal-equestrian.pdf

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok boys and girls.

Beautimous Mare last night got her first taste of LubriSyn. Again, she was a LITTLE TINY bit off last night ...

I am having the barn give her the loading dose of 15 ml in the morning and evening feed ... for the next six days. THEN, 15 ml in her morning feed.

I mixed it with ground up apple treats and carrots. It looked gross. But she loffed it. (ack kack kack)

I'm riding tonight. More tomorrow.

[chism]

My apologies if this has been adressed before, I've been following this thread since it started and don't have time to go back and re-read it....Do you need a prescription for Lubrisyn or can you buy it OTC? Would anyone care to share where they found it, or more specifically the least expensive place they found it? I'm considering dropping the supplements and starting Legend this spring and this looks like it may be a good alternative.

[petitefilly]

I've been reading all these posts and I have to say allthe HA products probably do well in your horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I did the Legend series on my mare last year, and followed up with Hyla gel and found my mare almost totally sound. It does work and I used any HA gel that was readily available at the time, at least five brands, they all made a difference.

Now here is a little secret, many cosmetic companies are now adding HA to face creams. Face and body lotion is sold in human form on Jeffer's site, and others are on the net. I've had my share of life experiences and my face could use some smoothing:::Yeah::: old age is a bitch. I've used the face creams and let me tell you, I see an improvement in my face now. Lines are going away! Not extreme, of course not, but they do lessen. Now my theory here is if the horse gets relief, my face has improved, does the molecular size of HA that much of a problem?

Ladies and gentlemen, HA is a marvelous product, I salute it's use, whatever brand it comes in. all

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chism:
Do you need a prescription for Lubrisyn or can you buy it OTC? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's only sold through vets. No 'script necessary.

[Cowgirl]

Well if it's sold through vets, then Mountain Vet Supply might have it. Someone could call and ask. If they don't have it now, they might be willing to get it for you. It might be an easier way for some of you to get your hands on it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cowgirl:
Well if it's sold through vets, then Mountain Vet Supply might have it. Someone could call and ask. If they don't have it now, they might be willing to get it for you. It might be an easier way for some of you to get your hands on it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Just got off the phone with them. Only through Vet's offices.

[CHJoker]

I second PetiteFilly. AFter reading up on this (like CRAZY) I think that HA works well in horses, period. The horse journal article made that pretty clearhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think I will try the Hyalun and see how it goes, and I won't stop the MSM, or the glucosamine.

I might try the Lubrisyn, but maybe not. I may have a very hard time getting a hold of it.

[toowoomba2]

Why not try all nutracuticals at once? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It supposedly can't harm a horse. Its only money, right?

In the end, all our horses will have very lubricated poop at the least.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Second day on LubriSyn. Haven't seen her move yet though ... dentist, and work have taken their toll.

I'm riding tonight, however, so I'll report back tomorrow.

Cross fingers!

[Alter Equine]

I don't have much to report. My guy's been on Lubrisyn for about 10 days. The temperature has plummeted again, I missed a couple rides due to terrible road conditions, so he is very animated and fresh and I just can't tell.

[welshcob]

Picked up the LubriSyn today, 1st dose tonight.

Was there an agreement on a loading dose??? I decided to copy F8 (I think) and do an AM and PM for 4 days.

Gryffin is in his 5th week back to work after the EPSM diet change, EPM treatments and a couple months recouperation. He feels great but we're just slowly starting school figures as opposed to the long straight lines.

I gave the speel to one of my vets at the clinic when I picked it up, he sort of rolled his eyes and said something about "another supplement" -- but did turn and ask to let them know how it works...... And the clinic did order a few different sizes besides mine, so.....

Maybe we should start a new thread about results of our "trials".

[Oldenburg Mom]

Just got back from the barn ... starting a new thread for "trials"

[buff4948]

Anymore info or is the verdict still out?

[findeight]

Got my vet bill and was charged $140 for 32 oz which is a 2 month supply or $70 a month.

Now, mare did get a Legend shot per my request last week as she started on the LubriSyn, with her, the test will be in the next week or so as the Legend degrades. I am not imagining a huge change-just a consistency matching her comfort right after the Legend shot.

My thoughts are that we possibly can do away with the $90 a month IV shot plus switch the Smart Pak to something more basic (currently mega gluc$)hence cheaper.

Fat cat is remaining much improved on 1cc twice a week.

[findeight]

Well I did start this and here's the post that did it.

Expect to be remembered at year end award time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

After 2 months the mare is off the daily Bute that was started after an injury last fall.

SmartPak is changing from GLC5500 to Missing Link plus Glucs...BUT we are, somehow, a month ahead with the stuff so have a months worth of the already paid for GLC to feed.
Will update in 6 weeks or so.

Anybody who cites the old "I didn't read all 15 pages or so" is making a mistake here...you NEED to read all 7 pages on this original thread and the 15 or so on the totally unscientific HA trials thread to underdstand what, when and why some have chosen to use HA for their high performance gimps and NQRs that still are ready to go.

My congrats to those who can maintain a real high performance horse in competition condition without any maintainance at all.

Most of us can't. This stuff, the HA, helps us.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Findeight,

You are right. You started this and personally, I am indebted to you more than you will know.

I had a horse that was unsound. I now have a completely sound horse that, once she started on LubriSyn, has not put one foot wrong ... she has gone from a pasture ornament to a workable, HAPPY horse.

Personally, I cannot thank you enough. Not only did you change MY days with her, but you remarkably changed HER life. She is happier, out of pain, and actually gets excited at the thought of jumping.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

[saddleup]

Oldenburg Mom:

Are you giving your mare anything else, or only the LubriSyn? My gelding's on Glucosamine and Chondroitin, but I need to get more aggressive as he's definitely chronically "off" on his left hind. I'm confused, but your experience makes me want to go with the LubriSyn.

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Findeight,

You are right. You started this and personally, I am indebted to you more than you will know......

Personally, I cannot thank you enough. Not only did you change MY days with her, but you remarkably changed HER life. She is happier, out of pain, and actually gets excited at the thought of jumping.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ohhhhhh. You LIKE me, you really, really like me...tonite I am wearing Richard Tyler (er,..next March anyway) and Tiffany gave me the earrings.
I'd like to thank all the little peo.....oh can it already http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And for everybody else... go back and read this stuff and READ FOR CONTENT.

[welshcob]

GOOD FOR YOU F8!!!

Thanks for reviving the original topic -- I personally would send you the biggest bouquet.... not only is my horse more 100% than he's been in the 5 years I've had him - but since taking this myself I figure I have taken away the last two years of back pain, and my 82yo mother (15 years of diagnosed Osteoporosis) finally admitted after one week that she can get out of bed without hanging on to all surrounding furniture....(she HATES to admit any drug helps -- and has not had ONE of the latest-greatest touted prescription drugs that has worked for her...)

This is truly a wonder drug for those people and pets that need some joint help.

May I suggest a Findeight Day????

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by findeight:
I'd like to thank all the little peo.....oh can it already http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HEY! Be NICE to your fan club. *sulk* I'm not kidding about this stuff, findeight. There's more to this story than I'm willing to go into, but believe me, this stuff has been a lifesaver.

saddleup --

I had Beautimous Mare on ... oh heck let's see. Four supplements? Pure Yucca, HylaMotion, Vit E & Selenium Crumbles and ... one other. I can't remember now but there was one more. Oh and of course her SunniFlax.

I ONLY have her on LubriSyn now. And I will ONLY use the gel. The syringe thingie is just too small of a dose to get right. At least, for me.

Of course, the acid test really happened this past week. I gave it to a two-footer I know with multiple aged injuried. If it works with her, well, it really IS a miracle supplement.

[saddleup]

Oldenburg Mom:

Thanks for replying. I'm going to try it.