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View Full Version : What to do: don't want to tattle, but...Update



cllane1
Apr. 6, 2011, 01:28 PM
When I was looking at ride times and some of the riders for Chatt this weekend, I noticed that there is a person in the Rider division that completed three events at the next level up last year. Doesn't that make the rider ineligible for the Rider division?

I hate to look like a tattle-tale, but should I bring this to the organizer's attention?

wildlifer
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:00 PM
I think you can compete at the next level up, just not the one above that.

I.e. at Novice, you can still do it if you have done Training, but not if you have done Prelim.

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

However, even more annoying, I know someone who has ridden around Rolex and is now competing in the Novice and Training River divisions. Nice, eh?

cllane1
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:03 PM
For Rider, it has to do with how many completions at the next level up you've had in the past 24 months.


From the book:
Levels restricted by rider are limited to those competitors who have not completed more than two Horse Trials at the next highest level or higher in the previous 24 months. e.g. Training Rider - the competitor may not have completed more than two Horse Trials at the Preliminary Level or higher in the previous 24 months.

4.6 HORSE (H) - Open to competitors of any age, horse may not have completed an event above the level, e.g. a Novice Horse may not have completed an event at Training level or above, a Training Horse may not have completed an event at the Preliminary level or above, etc.

scubed
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:08 PM
It is worthwhile to check because sometimes it is just an error. A friend of mine who is eventing at advanced now was entered in a BN Rider division last week. It was a clerical error. Easier for everyone to get it sorted before the event starts.


4.5 RIDER (R) - Levels restricted by rider are limited to those competitors who have not completed more than two Horse Trials at the next highest level or higher in the previous 24 months. e.g. Training Rider - the competitor may not have completed more than two Horse Trials at the Preliminary Level or higher in the previous 24 months.

If someone did Rolex 4 years ago, but hasn't competed above Novice since then, they are fine for the Novice Rider Divisions, whether or not you consider it an appropriate display of sportsmanship. You could not do both the Novice and Training Rider divisions unless you were failing to complete when you entered training, in which case, regardless of past history, a rider division could be appropriate

Sonoma City
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:12 PM
IME, tattling has never won anyone any points. Unless this rider is competing against you and you're really concerned w/ her beating you, I would let it be. If you see her at the event maybe mention something. She may not have even asked to be put in that division, and might rectify it herself. If I tattled on every adult amateur who I've seen get paid for schooling other people's horses when they were away, or hunter rider who stretched the interpretation of a rule to get an edge, not to mention IHSA, I would be able to eliminate a lot of people who I compete against :P I'd rather just beat them :-D

SevenDogs
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:13 PM
Keep your eyes on your own paper. Period.

I HATE SEEING A THREAD LIKE THIS ON THE EVENTING BOARD.

If spending time worrying about what other competitors are doing (rather than riding our horse the best we can) becomes the norm, I'd rather we just go back to all "Open" classes. Leave this type of things to the other disciplines Eventing tries very hard NOT to be.

This is a very unattractive by-product of entry information available online. Interestingly, recent other threads where the OP has been "positive" that the riders is ineligible for a certain class have been proven WRONG.

I had some well-meaning person make a big issue to me about another competitor in my class not being eligible (they were not riding themselves). I couldn't have cared less. I'm there to ride my horse as successfully as I can.

cllane1
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:25 PM
Ok, that's fine, SevenDogs, but then what is the point of having division restrictions? Does the organizer or USEA automatically flag someone who enters the wrong division? Is anyone checking these things at all? If not, again, what's the point? And since we have restricted divisions, shouldn't people play by the rules?

We all see threads complaining about this or that at events (the Poplar footing thread comes to mind), and everyone jumps on the poster who complains but doesn't report. So all I was asking was whether it was appropriate to do so.

I have not come across this situation before. Does the organizer want to know (or care) or not?

SevenDogs
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:29 PM
You asked if you appeared to be tattling... my answer was YES!!!!!!!

Why do you assume most people *don't* play by the rules? Your assumption that someone is trying to cheat is really annoying. 99.9% of eventing riders strive to do the right thing, which is what makes eventing great.

Are you even riding in the show? Do you know that the division assignments are final? Do you have any idea if the rider even asked to be placed in that division (and if not, may ask to be moved)?

Tattling on another competitor is WAY different than a competitor discussing footing or other issues they had at a show with the Organizer.

SonnysMom
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:29 PM
Keep your eyes on your own paper. Period.

I HATE SEEING A THREAD LIKE THIS ON THE EVENTING BOARD.

If spending time worrying about what other competitors are doing (rather than riding our horse the best we can) becomes the norm, I'd rather we just go back to all "Open" classes. Leave this type of things to the other disciplines Eventing tries very hard NOT to be.

This is a very unattractive by-product of entry information available online. Interestingly, recent other threads where the OP has been "positive" that the riders is ineligible for a certain class have been proven WRONG.
By MYOB in this case it is like condoning it. If it was a mistake, as scubed pointed out, it is easier to fix ahead of time.
If it wasn't a mistake and that person really isn't eligible for tht division why allow them to potentially beat somebody that legitimately is in that division.
If the rider entered Novice knowing that she is not eligible for it she is counting on other people silence.
I don't think that OP needs to throw a loud hissy fit in the secretary's stand but a quick email would be fine.

Much as you may hope that eventing doesn't go the way the other sports or equestrian disciplines have gone, due to human nature it will to some degree. We have become a society that winning is everything and sportmanship be damned.

If there is an easy way to politely point it out to organizers why not. Why tolerate cheating as it only encourges others. I think it encourges the following thought process for some people "Well, so & so isn't really eligible for that division and she rode in 3 HT's above her division and I only rode in 2 so I should be able to go back to Novice too. If everybody is cheating anyway and getting away with it why should I be honest?"

Proving somebody took money for schooling somebody else's horse is much more difficult than going internet and printing off rider results for the last year or two.

SevenDogs
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:41 PM
Why tolerate cheating as it only encourges others. I think it encourges the following thought process for some people "Well, so & so isn't really eligible for that division and she rode in 3 HT's above her division and I only rode in 2 so I should be able to go back to Novice too. If everybody is cheating anyway and getting away with it why should I be honest?"

.

Why do you automatically assume someone is cheating?

If I were to see something like that, I would assume that either 1) a mistake was made; or 2) I didn't have all the facts; or 3) I don't care. 99.9% of the people are trying to do the right thing. Just ride and stop trying to eliminate competitors from your division so you have a better chance of a ribbon. It's only a win if you truly beat everyone.

Frankly, I am never going to condone this type of behavior. If others want to jump in and head this direction, I can't stop you. I will be out riding... and hoping we just go back to "Open" divisions only if this kind of thing continues. Perhaps next, we can all go on "Amateur" patrol. :no::no::no:

I evented at the lower levels 20 years ago, when some ULR's argued against them, saying that it would ruin the spirit of the sport. I really did not believe recognizing lower levels would result in this type of problem.... I'm beginning to worry that I was wrong. I am so disappointed by the increase in these types of threads.

Lisa Cook
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:46 PM
Sometimes mistakes get made....I am by no means a professional or upper level rider, having only ridden to Novice.

But I am not eligible for BN Rider division. I went to check my entry status for Pine Top last March and lo & behold, there I was - in BN Rider. I don't know if I made a mistake on my form or if the organizer made a mistake, but I immediately sent an e-mail asking to be moved out of that division.

(It turned out to a be a moot point as Pine Top ended up splitting BN into junior and open divisions.)

It could just be an error on someone's part that just hasn't been caught yet.

Did I read somewhere that the USEA's new online entry program is supposed to prevent people from entering divisions for which they are not eligible? That might be the long term solution to the "tattling" dilemma.

purplnurpl
Apr. 6, 2011, 02:58 PM
there is nothing wrong with sending a quick note to the organizer.

believe me, riders who enter in divisions that they are not eligible for would rather have the mistake caught before the start of the event rather than feel the torment of being subject to repercussions if the error is caught after the fact.

(ex: Jennie Brannigan at the AECs--don't you think she would have benefited if someone had caught the error before she won two divisions? I think so.)

The rule used to be two divisions above. So the change has probably caught this person off guard.

I had a friend who had a stop on XC and not own up to it. She took someones ribbon.
I hate that even more.

RoeVee
Apr. 6, 2011, 03:03 PM
I think one of the great things about information being on-line is it IS going to make everyone more accountable. It is going to get harder to "cheat". It will also allow riders and show organizers to be more pro-active in ensuring riders are in the right division - it could very well be a clerical error. Get it fixed.

If the rider is not eligible for that division there is NOTHING WRONG with letting the organizer know (not sure why this is tattling???). The organizer can investigate (if they choose to) and correct before the start of the competition.

That is good for everyone. :)

Bobthehorse
Apr. 6, 2011, 03:42 PM
No, its not great that people have to make these threads. Not because someone cares about possible rule breaking, but because there are people breaking rules in the first place (in this case, maybe). Maybe the person breaking rules doesnt effect me, but they should still be held accountable for doing so, and its not about eliminating competition, its about dishonesty. I dont buy into the 'keep your head down' school, if you see something wrong, always speak up.

Here we have Jr, Sr and Open (for riders who have ridden above the level they are competing in the past 2 years). I have had a current 3* rider in my Sr division before, on multiple horses, and it was certainly no clerical error as it was never rectified and the times up far in advance online. Not that it matters to my ride, but I just dont like to see people think the rules dont apply to them for whatever reason.

I always let the organizer know when they have put me in the Sr or Jr when I should be in the Open. And not just because Open generally runs later so I can sleep an extra half hour.

SevenDogs
Apr. 6, 2011, 03:56 PM
I always let the organizer know when they have put me in the Sr or Jr when I should be in the Open. And not just because Open generally runs later so I can sleep an extra half hour.

TOTALLY different thing for rider to correct their own entry (which happens all the time -- good on you!) vs assuming someone is intentionally cheating and "reporting" them.

In this case, the OP hasn't told us whether or not she is even riding in this show/division or just "perusing" other people's divisions/shows.

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 6, 2011, 04:04 PM
My assumption is that either I don't know all the facts about the rider in question...or it is a clerical error. Errors happen all the time...people either enter the wrong division or get put in the wrong division.

I would just ignore it--even if it was in my own division. I probably wouldn't have even noticed it unless it was a good friend of mine (or someone like Boyd put in BN Rider). In which case I might say something to my friend (hey, I think they put you in the wrong division)...or tease Boyd. But I would probably leave it up to the rider to catch and fix themselves.

In the big scheme of things...not important.

Janet
Apr. 6, 2011, 04:22 PM
The rule used to be two divisions above. So the change has probably caught this person off guard.
Other way round.
It has been ONE level up and either 2 years or 24 months for many years.

NEXT year it will be TWO levels up and FIVE yeaers.

cllane1
Apr. 6, 2011, 04:37 PM
In this case, the OP hasn't told us whether or not she is even riding in this show/division or just "perusing" other people's divisions/shows.

I am riding in this show and in this division. And I'm sure you'll use that information to claim that I am going through everyone's records and trying to get people thrown out of the division so I can win.

I am certainly not assuming that this person, or anyone else, is intentionally out to "cheat." I'm sure it's a mistake or oversight. All I was asking is whether to mention it to the organizers, partly to avoid a situation where the rider might end up qualifying for something she's not eligible for and getting tripped up by it later.

Janet
Apr. 6, 2011, 04:38 PM
I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume it was a clerical error on someone's part (secretary, rider, etc.)

As such, I see nothing wrong with a gentle notification - I wasn't expecting to see so-and-so in the Rider division, are you sure it is right?

Divine Comedy
Apr. 6, 2011, 05:36 PM
A long time ago, I sent off a polite note to an organizer about a horse/rider pair in my Training Rider division who had completed three prelims in the very recent past. The horse/rider were moved to the Open Training division. Times were up, so no one had caught the mistake (which I assumed it was). I'm quite a bit OCD so it BOTHERED me (yes, in capital letters) because it WASN'T RIGHT. Not because I was concerned about ribbon placements, etc.

Sorry, don't consider it 'tattling'. I don't care whether other people report it or not. And I also don't check my competitors results out before the show anymore, so I never know any more if they are qualified. But I have no problem with sending a polite note to the organizer. If they fix it, great. If not, whatever, I feel better.

Purplnurpl, what is the story w/Jennie Brannigan and AEC divisions? I definitely don't remember this one.

Janet, are they really changing the experience rules next year? Are QRs going to count for more than two years now?

deltawave
Apr. 6, 2011, 05:54 PM
Why do you automatically assume someone is cheating?



Why automatically assume the OP is assuming they are cheating? ;) Maybe the rider in question didn't realize or misread the rule. Maybe it is simply a mistake. Maybe it completely slipped someone's mind to check their qualifications. Maybe they ARE cheating. Doesn't really matter. It is not the obligation of the OP to report it, but it is certainly their prerogative.

BaroquePony
Apr. 6, 2011, 05:58 PM
If this happened to one of my students entered in *said* division, I would feel obligated to politely inform the organizer or TD or whomever that there might be a mistake, or maybe not.

asterix
Apr. 6, 2011, 06:32 PM
I hate the idea of tattling, and the idea that we have to police these things, too...

but a polite email to the organizer might not be amiss; as others have pointed out, this could be an unintentional error and it might even benefit the rider to have it corrected.

I know someone who qualified for the AECs one year on a result from a rider division that she turned out not to be qualified for...this was discovered before the AECs, but too late for her to try and get another qualifying result, so she didn't go at all...
(and for the record, I do not know whether she didn't realize she was in the wrong division, or misread the rules, or what, but she was very bummed she couldn't go to the AECs...)

Zoomd
Apr. 6, 2011, 08:34 PM
I agree with a few here, that an unaccusing email to the secretary is perfectly acceptable. Why you were scanning through the entrants, seeing what they've done it your business, and I have done it on occasion for curiosity too. Something like that would stand out to me also as incorrect. Just to mention, in my first two events this year in Aiken, I signed up for the JYOP divisions. During the week before the competition, I re-read the age rules and realized that I am no longer a young rider (bummer!) and contacted the secretary myself. My guess is this person did something similar, not realizing that the rule would place them in an open division instead of rider.

whbar158
Apr. 6, 2011, 09:34 PM
Many people also just don't know rules, no idea who the person is in question. But I know some people who might not know the rules and honestly think Rider just means not professional as well. I mostly do hunters and its incredible how many people just do NOT know the rules. This includes trainers, I heard a trainer talking one time after showing in the Young Hunters say "How big were those fences? They weren't 3'+ right? I mean they wouldn't be because this is for young horses and that would break their Pre-Green status so they must be like 2'9"" Seriously? You signed up a horse and did not even look at the height or specs for the division?? Oh the class height was 3' too.

So maybe the person in question here doesn't know the rules or is hoping no one says anything either. You never know. I personally am a huge rule person. I know the rules of what I am doing extremely well (or at least try to!). I also enjoy looking at past results of people, seeing what they have done, what shows, levels, horses etc. So I would be the type of person to notice what the OP is talking about without searching with the intent of calling people out, I just notice stuff.

I try to help people out with learning the rules and point out "hey sorry you actually can't do y if you do x" and try to point it out before they actual break any rules. Most of the time people just don't know the rules. It is almost like well I don't want to know them so if I break them I can play dumb or something.

Beam Me Up
Apr. 6, 2011, 10:07 PM
We must be very technologically close to automating this process, no?

Linking our USEA records with evententries or the like, and having them automatically declare which levels/divisions we are qualified for? It seems very labor intensive for organizers (or in this case a competitor) to check manually.

Innocent Bystander
Apr. 7, 2011, 06:54 AM
Keep your eyes on your own paper. Period.NO!!!

I hate to shout, but it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to ensure that the rules are followed. In fact, the USEF relies heavily on its members to self-govern themselves and their fellow competitors. Included in the rulebook is an entire chapter which lays out the procedures to be followed when self-governance is necessary and several other chapters include additional procedures as well.

Nobody likes having to "tattle," but you have to be willing to go there to help maintain a fair and level playing field for all involved. It's part of the "bad" that you must being willing to accept if you want to enjoy the "good."

LisaB
Apr. 7, 2011, 07:02 AM
With all the awards given out now to different types of people, this should be pointed out if the rider hasn't done so already.
When we didn't have the AR and H division year end awards, I would say forget it but now, speak up.

Commander Cody
Apr. 7, 2011, 07:30 AM
If it is a mistake, then it's a lot easier to correct now before everything is scheduled than later and this could work just as well to the rider in question's benefit (for points, qualifications etc..) so if I was certain, I would just send a quick email to the secretary and not pursue it beyond that. If not certain, I'd stay out of it.

A few years ago in looking at entry lists for a dressage championship show I noticed that a very well known professional was put in an amateur division. Clearly a mistake and clearly not something that could just be "let go" since it was a championship. I told the secretary who was relieved to be able to change it before things were finalized. (and totally different situation from the professional who "pretends" to be an amateur for showing purposes - we have some of those also and in that case I might ask the TD at the show to check into it but not report it as fact to show management).

ottb
Apr. 7, 2011, 12:18 PM
In all likelihood its a clerical error. I've just sent a quick email to the sec when I see the obvious error.
there is nothing wrong with sending a quick note to the organizer.

believe me, riders who enter in divisions that they are not eligible for would rather have the mistake caught before the start of the event rather than feel the torment of being subject to repercussions if the error is caught after the fact.

(ex: Jennie Brannigan at the AECs--don't you think she would have benefited if someone had caught the error before she won two divisions? I think so.)

....

Trixie
Apr. 7, 2011, 04:03 PM
I don't consider it tattling. It's a nice thought that everyone is trying to do the right thing, but it's a little naive to think everyone is always going to follow the rules, which are generally written so that things are fair to everyone. If someone isn't following the rules, then it makes things significantly less fair.

This sport is too expensive to compete against people that are deliberately breaking the rules. If the rules aren't being deliberately broken, I'm sure it can be handled graciously.

And if it can be done without filing a giant protest, so much the better.

gold2012
Apr. 7, 2011, 05:40 PM
You might check, too, if the rider actually "completed" all three competitions, if not, they are eligible for that division. They have to be completed....not just partially done.

Also, sometimes, it is just clerical...and does get straightened out before it starts.

lecoeurtriste
Apr. 7, 2011, 06:25 PM
Perhaps the rider in question is riding HC...that will not show up on the entry stats or ride times. I've taken several late entries this year where an experienced rider wanted the horse to run at x level, and had to go HC in a rider division to get it done. FWIW, the HC will show up on the scoresheet, and the person's placing wouldn't count except as an NQR.

Of course, I've also had more riders than I can count this year request or enter divisions for which they are not qualified (not in an attempt to cheat, but rather by not knowing the rules).

Perhaps the rider in question is either blissfully unaware that they are breaking the rules, or have already declared an HC ride?? Also agree that it's easier to fix before the event starts than after.

cllane1
Apr. 10, 2011, 08:50 PM
I did send a polite email to the organizer, and when I arrived at the HT, the rider had been moved to the appropriate division. Whether that was a result of my email or something that had already been caught and corrected, I can't say.

The rider had completed the Training rides on a previous horse, and the horse she rode this weekend was new to her, so perhaps it was a case of not realizing that it is the rider's completions that count, not the horse's.

Ghazzu
Apr. 10, 2011, 09:43 PM
All's well that ends well, then.

Gry2Yng
Apr. 10, 2011, 10:14 PM
:-)

Paks
Apr. 11, 2011, 10:30 AM
In this case, the OP hasn't told us whether or not she is even riding in this show/division or just "perusing" other people's divisions/shows.

Why should that matter? If I see someone breaking into your car should I keep my eyes on my own paper and not call the police because it's not my car?

Whether it is a mistake or deliberate, it should be fixed. Though the op has stated she is in the show - if someone is acting as a neighborhood watch on these types of problems great. It helps keep everyone on the up and up and provides a double check for an often beleaguered secretary.

olympicprincess
Apr. 11, 2011, 11:12 AM
I did send a polite email to the organizer, and when I arrived at the HT, the rider had been moved to the appropriate division. Whether that was a result of my email or something that had already been caught and corrected, I can't say.
Good! I would have done the same. I'd probably be polite and play naive "did the rules change for the rider division this year? because someone in a rider division has more experience than I believe is permitted to enter X level at this event..."

DragonTea
Apr. 11, 2011, 07:37 PM
Haven't you ever gotten that question in an interview... someone you know is breaking the rules... what do you do?

The best answer in the interview is usually something like, I'd approach the person myself with my concerns. But really we're eventers and usually we're all on one friendly page. Truly we're one of the best horse world sports because we want everyone to do well and succeed. Or most of the time we are on the same team. I wouldn't be too worried about it, most of the time it's truly a mistake.

There's a billion different reasons it could have happened, but good for you to ask before taking action - leaping without thinking per say. But maybe in the future you should ask your coach/trainer or an eventer around with a bit more experience with the matter rather than posting it on the internet forum? Just because you'll get so many pros and cons...and drama that it will just confuse you more.

enjoytheride
Apr. 11, 2011, 08:04 PM
I agree with the car breaking story. It's possible I should mind my own business because you locked your keys in your own car and need to take someone to the emergency room right away so must bust a window.

But if you showed up, keys in hand, and your car was gone, wouldn't you wonder why nobody asked the thief if it was their car or at least dialed 911?

We make it so hard to do the right thing because it's called tattling.