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TheBrightSide06
Apr. 5, 2011, 11:23 PM
I'm VERY sorry, as I realize stuff like this is posted all the time...
But I'd like to know if this is legal for dressage:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/happy-mouth-double-jointed-loose-ring-snaffle-bit/p/X1-01678/cn/1464/

I really appreciate you all taking the time to answer a silly question.
Thanks SO much in advance!!!
Emily

purplnurpl
Apr. 6, 2011, 09:13 AM
hey how's it going?!

Is this for your new horse. We need pics/videos/details!!!

What's Kobie up to these days?

(yes, the bit is legal).
below is the list from the rule book. rotating snaffles are at the bottom in bold.

1. Ordinary snaffle with double-jointed mouthpiece
2. Ordinary snaffle with double-jointed mouthpiece
3. Ordinary snaffle with jointed mouthpiece
4. Racing snaffle
5. Egg-butt snaffle: (a) with cheeks, (b) without cheeks
6. Other type of snaffle with cheeks
7. Fulmer
8. Snaffle with upper cheeks only
9. Rubber or leather snaffle jointed (a) or unjointed (b)
10. Unjointed snaffle
11. Hanging cheek snaffle
12. Dr. Bristol
13. Happy Mouth (includes loose ring, round ring, dee-ring, flat ring, egg butt, and full cheek styles
14. Ordinary snaffle with double jointed mouth piece with lozenge
15. Ordinary snaffle with rotating mouth piece
16. Snaffle with rotating mouth piece. Only as illustrated.

Napoles
Apr. 6, 2011, 10:16 AM
hey how's it going?!

Is this for your new horse. We need pics/videos/details!!!

What's Kobie up to these days?

(yes, the bit is legal).
below is the list from the rule book. rotating snaffles are at the bottom in bold.

1. Ordinary snaffle with double-jointed mouthpiece
2. Ordinary snaffle with double-jointed mouthpiece
3. Ordinary snaffle with jointed mouthpiece
4. Racing snaffle
5. Egg-butt snaffle: (a) with cheeks, (b) without cheeks
6. Other type of snaffle with cheeks
7. Fulmer
8. Snaffle with upper cheeks only
9. Rubber or leather snaffle jointed (a) or unjointed (b)
10. Unjointed snaffle
11. Hanging cheek snaffle
12. Dr. Bristol
13. Happy Mouth (includes loose ring, round ring, dee-ring, flat ring, egg butt, and full cheek styles
14. Ordinary snaffle with double jointed mouth piece with lozenge
15. Ordinary snaffle with rotating mouth piece
16. Snaffle with rotating mouth piece. Only as illustrated.

Dr. Bristols are dressage legal?? :eek:

mellsmom
Apr. 6, 2011, 10:31 AM
They have been for quite a while... the Happy Mouth in questions wasn't for a while, but they are now allowing the center roller. I only know because I showed in one for a while.

Janet
Apr. 6, 2011, 10:37 AM
I can't tell from the picture if the center piece rolls, or if it is fixed.

If it is a roller, it is not legal for dressage. ("Roller" is different from "rotating center piece")
If it is fixed, it is legal.

Dr Bristol's have been legal for a while now. At least 5, possibly 10, years.

sarah88
Apr. 6, 2011, 10:46 AM
I believe I had that bit before, and if it is the same one the center does roll... just something to be aware of.. I liked the bit alot until my horse somehow managed to chew it to death :/

mg
Apr. 6, 2011, 10:56 AM
The linked bit is not dressage legal. The center piece revolves freely (it "rolls").

The term "rotating" in the rules refers to rotation as on a hinge, like this bit (despite how the terminology in the Happy Mouth naming convention of this bit is confusing when addressing the terminology in the rule book): http://www.adamshorsesupply.com/browse.cfm/4,6512.html

baxtersmom
Apr. 6, 2011, 11:06 AM
Does anyone think you could make the center part NOT roll with a dab of super glue? ;)

I have held off from buying that bit because of this issue, even though it seems like a perfectly gentle bit that wouldn't seem to give anyone a undue advantage. Happy Mouth's other alternative for a double-joint is the french link, which is just not acceptable to my sensitive flower.

Also, does anyone else think that it's perfectly arbitrary that the Sprenger WH with a roller IS legal and this isn't? Not that I mind (we use a WH), it just seems inconsistent.

Sonoma City
Apr. 6, 2011, 11:42 AM
Also, does anyone else think that it's perfectly arbitrary that the Sprenger WH with a roller IS legal and this isn't? Not that I mind (we use a WH), it just seems inconsistent.

Completely agree. I'm sure it's getting hard to regulate with all the new bits coming out. I love the WH, and think it's great that it's legal for USEA, but it is not legal to use for dressage under USDF. This all gets so confusing!

Napoles
Apr. 6, 2011, 11:45 AM
I can't tell from the picture if the center piece rolls, or if it is fixed.

If it is a roller, it is not legal for dressage. ("Roller" is different from "rotating center piece")
If it is fixed, it is legal.

Dr Bristol's have been legal for a while now. At least 5, possibly 10, years.

Not over here. They are illegal under Dressage Ireland or Eventing Ireland. Or FEI as far as I know?

Funny the different rules. Over here grackles are allowed now, whereas in the UK they aren't for dressage. :)

Janet
Apr. 6, 2011, 11:57 AM
Completely agree. I'm sure it's getting hard to regulate with all the new bits coming out. I love the WH, and think it's great that it's legal for USEA, but it is not legal to use for dressage under USDF. This all gets so confusing!

Driven, in this case, by the FEI.

three_dayer
Apr. 6, 2011, 12:34 PM
In the US the dr bristol is legal(it has been forever). In Canada its not(sounds like its not across the pond either). Also another little bit of information is that the lever noseband is legal for pure dressage, but not for eventing...interesting eh?

purplnurpl
Apr. 6, 2011, 03:13 PM
from the description on the link it doesn't suggest that the middle piece rolls.
hmmm...

page 72
http://useventing.com/resources/files/docs/Rule_Book_2011_web.pdf
bit #16

that is a rotating KK! Not jointed.
http://www.doversaddlery.com/herm-sprenger-wh-ultra-d-ring-snaffle-bit/p/X1-01892/cn/86/

mg
Apr. 6, 2011, 03:37 PM
from the description on the link it doesn't suggest that the middle piece rolls.

You're right, it doesn't. Which is why that bit was such a bitter disappointment when I first ordered it and it showed up being a roller!

Mudroom
Apr. 6, 2011, 04:35 PM
I emailed USEA about this specific bit last year. Here is the response I got:

"It would not be legal. The only rotating middle piece that is permitted is pictured in number 16 of the Permitted Snaffles (Appendix 4) in the rulebook. A roller like the one you have picture below doesn’t fit into the examples in the rulebook".

I have not checked to see if the picture numbers etc are the same in this year's rule book. My question related to use in dressage for eventing.

Whenever I have emailed them a picture and asked, they have been very responsive. Yes, I know the rules come from USEF, but I felt that USEA was the best place to start for the eventing specific rules.

TBrescue
Apr. 6, 2011, 07:57 PM
Slightly off the subject, but is a "hanging cheek" listed in # 11 the same as the KK Baucher? The pic looks different.

Carolinadreamin'
Apr. 6, 2011, 09:39 PM
Are you sure that this bit has the rotating piece? I've got the Happy Mouth double jointed elevator and the piece in the middle does not rotate. They make a double jointed one that does rotate but I've got the one that does not rotate (I assume they make the same for the snaffle mentioned by the OP).

TheBrightSide06
Apr. 7, 2011, 10:53 AM
It does not rotate. So it is legal, yes?
purplnurpl, sent you a PM!! :)

Thanks so much guys!

SimpleSimon
Apr. 7, 2011, 10:57 AM
It does not rotate. So it is legal, yes?
purplnurpl, sent you a PM!! :)

Thanks so much guys!

It is not legal. The plastic does spin on the middle link - and that is all that is needed to be considered a roller. Agreed the middle link itself does not spin but the plastic does.

If you search hard enough you will find another thread discussing this exact bit in which Malcolm himself states it is not legal.

Happy Mouth does make a true french link with a metal center that is legal.

mg
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:07 AM
It is not legal. The plastic does spin on the middle link - and that is all that is needed to be considered a roller. Agreed the middle link itself does not spin but the plastic does.

Exactly. I have two of the double-jointed loose-ring bits and one of the double-jointed elevator bits and on ALL of them, the plastic in the center piece spins freely.

TBrescue: a hanging cheek is the same thing as a baucher. Bauchers are legal as long as the mouth-piece is legal as well.

Janet
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:14 AM
Slightly off the subject, but is a "hanging cheek" listed in # 11 the same as the KK Baucher? The pic looks different.
If it is the KK "B-Ring" Baucher bit then my understanding is that it is legal for straight dressage but not for eventing dressage.

But check with USEA or USEF to be sure.

If it is a "regular" Baucher then it is legal for both.

scubed
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:29 AM
KK Butterfly (B-ring) Boucher definitely not legal for eventing dressage. This one *not legal* http://www.123tack.com/herm-sprenger-kk-conrad-ultra--b--ring-snaffle---16mm.html

This one is legal: http://www.123tack.com/herm-sprenger-flat-baucher-bit.html

Sonoma City
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:44 AM
KK Butterfly (B-ring) Boucher definitely not legal for eventing dressage. This one *not legal* http://www.123tack.com/herm-sprenger-kk-conrad-ultra--b--ring-snaffle---16mm.html

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How do you know it is not legal? Is it written out anywhere? It is considered a boucher under USEF, and the USEA rules list bouchers as legal. I have seen people use these in recognized competition. I'm not questioning your knowledge, this is just the first time I've heard that it is not legal!

Janet
Apr. 7, 2011, 11:59 AM
How do you know it is not legal? Is it written out anywhere? It is considered a boucher under USEF, and the USEA rules list bouchers as legal. I have seen people use these in recognized competition. I'm not questioning your knowledge, this is just the first time I've heard that it is not legal!
Cause USEF and USEA say so.

Call USEA and/or USEF for confirmation.

Sonoma City
Apr. 7, 2011, 12:05 PM
Cause USEF and USEA say so.

Call USEA and/or USEF for confirmation.

I believe you. It's just a shame that you can't go to the rule books and find out what is and what is not legal. It makes it even more complicated when some bits (like this one) are legal for dressage under USDF but then not legal under USEA, and others (like the Herm Spregner WH) are legal for dressage under USEA but not USDF. That's probably why people are going around riding in recognized competitions with bits which are not legal, and why ring stewards don't catch it since they probably don't know either!

Xctrygirl
Apr. 7, 2011, 12:11 PM
Hey Janet,

Do we think it's because the bit cheek attachment area has some "sliding" room?

Or what exactly?

~Em

scubed
Apr. 7, 2011, 01:56 PM
How do you know it is not legal? Is it written out anywhere? It is considered a boucher under USEF, and the USEA rules list bouchers as legal.

It is legal for recognized dressage. It is not for recognized eventing dressage. I used this bit on on of my TBs and went through the whole thing with several TDs, judges and the rules committee. Got a definitive ruling from Malcolm Hook on it being not legal for eventing dressage. Keep thinking I should write a rule change proposal because I love the bit and agree that it is really no different than a baucher :yes:

mg
Apr. 7, 2011, 02:00 PM
<snip> and why ring stewards don't catch it since they probably don't know either!

Off-topic, but I've found the rules knowledge of bit checkers to be incredibly lacking. Perhaps this is just in my area? I remember I was randomly asked to help out at a USDF show as a bit checker once. The management didn't even bother to ask me if I knew what to look for. Lucky for them, I'm a weirdo and read rulebooks for fun. One woman had the Myler bit with the independently rotating side pieces and before I could even tell her she was good to go, she delivered a (much practiced, probably) schpeal about how the bit was legal and she had checked with the USEF, USDF, etc. I know I've carried print-outs of pages from the rulebook for any "questionable" equipment I might be using (e.g. swan neck spurs).

scubed
Apr. 7, 2011, 02:04 PM
It definitely varies. I caused great consternation when I showed up to dressage warm-up in my kimberwicke and running martingale, leaving my legal bridle with the bit check and telling them I would be there 2 rides before my time to switch. Ten minutes later the TD (who knew me) came tooling up, says to me, "carry on. I know you are fine, but needed to be responsive to the concerns of the bit check folks"

They are volunteers and in the end, it is the riders' job to know the rules. Even if the bit check and the TD say your tack is ok and it is not, the judge can eliminate you.

fooler
Apr. 7, 2011, 03:59 PM
It definitely varies. I caused great consternation when I showed up to dressage warm-up in my kimberwicke and running martingale, leaving my legal bridle with the bit check and telling them I would be there 2 rides before my time to switch. Ten minutes later the TD (who knew me) came tooling up, says to me, "carry on. I know you are fine, but needed to be responsive to the concerns of the bit check folks"

They are volunteers and in the end, it is the riders job to know the rules. Even if the bit check and the TD say your tack is ok and it is not, the judge can eliminate you.

Well stated!

TheBrightSide06
Apr. 26, 2011, 07:39 AM
I got the bit a few weeks ago and just forgot to post til now.
The center piece does NOT move, and it came to me that way. Legal!

RiverBendPol
Apr. 26, 2011, 06:12 PM
I got the bit a few weeks ago and just forgot to post til now.
The center piece does NOT move, and it came to me that way. Legal!

It sure better be bc I've been competing in it for 2 years and plan to continue to do so. ;)


......running to tack room to make sure....