Barefoot trends...is it a "cult?" [Archive]

Cherry

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:35 AM

Well... I'm on more than a couple barefoot sites and one of them, at least, does resemble a "cult"... But for the most part the ideologies are based in fact... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

And I don't think it's necessarily a "trend"... There have always been people out there whose horses have not been shod for one reason or another--mine isn't shod, basically, because I can't seem to find anyone willing to be my ongoing farrier... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif This way it's easier for my horse and I to take care of her feet as nature intended and it suits me fine--I'm tired of putting up with unreliable people...

The major reason barefooters feel the need to defend themselves is because people without a clue insist on lumping them all together... I feel Dr. Strasser's ideas are interesting and probably do work for foundered horses--it seems to make sense... But what doesn't make sense is to allow the horse to suffer in pain while all this "healing" is taking place--that I don't get!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif There are things that can be done to make the horse more comfortable...

I dislike all these labels that are put on these myriad of different "trims" when a basic, plain old balanced trim is all a horse really needs... But then, each one has his own "thing" he feels is most important and that is "addressed" by a particular little tweak he/she does when trimming and without the label what would the trim, or the person be??? Nothing!!! They would be just another "farrier", but to sell their books and accoutrements they have to have a "gimmick"--they have to give their "thing" a name so people can associate it with them...

I like K.C. LaPierre's "line" on his web site--"Shoeless but not clueless"... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"Take care, beware--of greedy leaders who take you where you should not go..." ~~George Harrison~~

slb

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:39 AM

From my perspective, barefoot is not a "trend" or in general a "cult". I have been a horseperson for 40 some years and I and many people I know have always kept barefoot horses (unless they need shoes).

However, I do understand the perspective that you may have gotten from reading BBs. There are some "new and improved" methods (one in particular) that are followed by some rather fanatical defenders of those methods and their guru. Their adamant defence stems from an understanding that their method is "the only one" that recognises optimal hoof form and function. It also stems from the "no shoes ever" belief that shoes are the underlying cause of all hoof ailments as well as some other health problems. Generally, the problem arises when they express their complete and undying acceptance of a particular set of opinions and theories that are promoted as "research" and "fact" by their guru. These opinions include "founder is not bad", "abscesses are a sign of healing" and to be expected, and its ok if your horse is lame for a year...it will have a "lifetime of soundness" once its feet attain optimal form and function. This particular method also charges more than double for what it costs to go to even the more expensive farrier schools and approx. 75% of the program is a correspondence course. Many of the more fanatical followers seem to have a problem differentiating between the method and the guru. They often get overly defensive when the method is questioned and carry it over to a personal attack on their guru.

In general, this particlar method has been scritinized and deemed potentially harmful by the rest of the hoofcare community and even some of its former trained hoofcare providers and followers. Wouldn't you get defensive if the rest of the world thought you were harming your horse when you have been totally convinced that you are doing something that is better than any other approach to attaining optimal form and function and there is an implication that your horse will eventually be sound for the rest of its life?

Just my 2 cents on the subject.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Reginapony

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:40 AM

Jester,

Thanks for the laugh!

To get a little off topic, your post reminds me of the kid who used to baby sit for my brother and I. In his 20's he became a Hari Krishner and moved to an ashram. This was during the 1970's. He was there for quite a few years. He left the ashram to study medicine, and now he is a OB/GYN Doctor in upstate New York! Talk about doing a 180% in your life!

*Endurance Rider Wannabee!* (But...just passing thru...for now!)

inspired

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:42 AM

I'm a barefoot fan, but my horse is shod on all 4!!

I think barefoot fans are a bit defensive because there are a lot of folks out there that think you can't compete a barefoot horse, or that it represents sub-standard hoof care. Also, sometimes people are reluctant to take the shoes off for the above reasons, and barefoot people tend to be over-encouraging I've noticed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif My current horse is shod all-round for theraputic reasons, and although he was balanced barefoot, he's more confident and developing easier with shoes on. My last horse has never had a nail in his hoof!

jester1113

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:54 AM

You know, at first I did have some red flags and the word "cult" actually was floating around in the back of my mind as I started learning/reading/listening re: barefoot trims.

I've brought my concerns up with a few of the barefoot folks on this board AND emailed with two trimmers, all of whom said "if you're not comfortable with it, don't do it." Not once have I felt pressured.

The more I read - both barefoot advocates AND big name "experts" who say barefoot isn't an option for most horses, my gut/instincts tell me to try barefoot. I'm also force feeding all this info to my level-headed brainiac BF and he hasn't found any gotchas for me yet either. BUT, I'd like to stress, I've done tons and tons of research on this. That's the key. I want to know the gotchas. I want to avoid any sort of pain/discomfort/ill-effect for my kids.

Find what works for you and more importantly your horses.

So, I vote not a cult. It's a weltanschauung! Wait! A hufanschauung!

Only connect...

Dune

Feb. 2, 2004, 09:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Reginapony:
I have been reading the barefoot topics. It sounds like some sort of a cult, and the barefoot people seem to always have to defend themselves. I find this to be a bit scary.

Any comments?

*Endurance Rider Wannabee!* (But...just passing thru...for now!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, definitely a cult! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif The thing that bugs me about a lot of "barefoot enthusiasts" is that they think every horse should go barefoot and that shoeing is always a bad thing. Whenever I hear people being so all-inclusive, I take 2 steps back, then turn and run away! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I'm all for horses staying barefoot as long as they can, especially as youngsters. However, when we are talking about real sport horses that are being ridden 5 days a week, the reality is that sooner or later they are going to need shoes. Not every horse, but quite a few...maybe even most of them. And people that want to argue that when they don't have anything even close to an FEI horse just drive me nuts! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif They are usually the people that have a couple of horses that they trail ride a few times a month...if that. I just refuse to argue with them anymore. JMNTBHO http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ChocoMare

Feb. 2, 2004, 09:24 AM

Nope, not a cult at all. Shoes versus barefoot?....Well, it all depends on the IFs: If your horse is well balanced or can be brought into balance without pain/discomfort. If your horse has great feet to begin with. If there's no history of laminitis or founder. If, if, if. All the IFs need to be answered in concert with your farrier and you.

I asked my farrier if she thought my mare could stand the barefoot thing. I explained why I desired it (no, not just to save money) but wanted to be sure she was a good candidate. After taking copious notes, make diagrams, etc. of my mare's feet, watching her move at walk & trot, and following a fabulous trim, she said "Go ahead and keep her barefoot. She'll do fine."

I'm glad I did it. It took a while for her soles to toughen up but she's wearing evenly and is staying sound. (I do use Old Mac boots when we ride on rocky trails.)

The comfort and pain-free life of the horse should determine your choice. Shoes have their purpose, so does barefootedness (is that a word?).

Chocomare
(Do something: Lead, follow or get out of the way.)
http://community.webshots.com/scripts/controlPanel.fcgi

LMH

Feb. 2, 2004, 09:28 AM

No I do not believe it is a cult-I think barefooting has been around since horses however somewhere in the midst of changing a horse's natural lifestyle, shoes became a necessity.

I don't think it is any more of a cult than good horsemanship and good horse care.

What I think HAS happened is many farriers just don't get it done properly-not all but many-there horses and not balanced and performance suffers as a result...so owner's look for another approach. What happens often when a horse has a mystery lameness or NQR? You pull his shoes and throw him out in a field...he gets sound. SO you pull him BACK in, use the same farrier and get the same problems.

Look at the threads and look at the feet on these animals-most are improperly balanced, long toes, long underrun heels...trouble.

I think the core difference in barefoot trimmers is they MUST get the trim right-there is no shoe to "hide" imperfections in the trim-they pay attention to the hoof and how it grows. They have to get it right or the client will become frustrated and leave to find a traditional farrier.

I have 4 horses-all barefoot and all with better feet, better gaits and better traction than any had shod-were they always this way? No. I shod my hunter his entire career-he finally had to retire because he just wasn't right behind. Barefoot now he is sound.

My 6yo has struggled with a hindend NQR for 2 years-barefoot and sound. Put him back in work and was cooked within 6 months. Barefoot again and sound. Things that make you go hmmmmm....

Both suffered toe cracks and little things that just wouldn't go away. I don't have a single crack or chip on one horse now. Hmmmmmm.

The KEY to a barefoot performance horse is natural living-and that means OUT-not stabled 15 hours a day. SO it isn't an option for many boarders that are stabled within only a few hours out a day.

If you have the option and letting your horses live out, I do think most will go better barefoot than in shoes-but without the turnout, the program will likely fail. Now that said I don't think they need to be out 24 hours-just out more than in.

Think about this as well-at many bigger shows, the horses would have the shoes pulled before the u/s because they would "move better."---well what does that tell you?

I doubt I will ever shoe my horses again-I just can't find one single good reason to. They are sound on pasture, sand ring and gravel driveways. I can't imagine a show I would attend would have more demanding footing than this so why bother?

Also remember higher fat diets used to be considered a "fad"-now it is readily accepted as a good way to feed. Perhaps when more show horses compete barefoot and show less troubles this "fad" will be accepted as well.

If anything, it will make farriers seriously evaluate their work and step up to the plate.

What frustrates me is owners just dismiss the option as cultish without even educating themselves on what a good balanced trim is! You might be surprised what a little education would do for your perspective.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

ChocoMare

Feb. 2, 2004, 09:45 AM

LMH hit the nail (no pun intended) on the head with one word: EDUCATION.

Read, read, read. Talk to others, then read some more. You shouldn't do anything without good, solid research. I didn't decide on barefoot just 'cause it's a fad or others said, Oooh, you should/must do this. I made an intelligent and well-informed choice. I consulted many people, read tons of articles and used my own common sense.

If you click on my pictures, you can see her feet pretty good in STAR5 in STAR7. She's balanced and straight. This didn't just "happen." She's on flax (done to improve her once wretched, shelly feet and poor coat) and is seen regularly by my wonderful (thank you God!) farrier.

Star's stablemate, Belle, has to have shoes. Her feet got torn up while summer pastured in a very rocky area. Goofing around with the girls over the shale tore them up. She needs the support right now. This was not a case of, well we'll leave her barefoot 'cause thats "better." It was a decision made between the owner and the farrier based on Belle's current hoof condition and the type of work she's doing.

Like LMH, I doubt I will ever shoe Star unless there is a medical reason to do so. Again, this is my educated decision.

Chocomare
(Do something: Lead, follow or get out of the way.)
http://community.webshots.com/scripts/controlPanel.fcgi

jjackson

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:04 AM

It doesn't help their image when the local barefoot enthusiast shakes her head and goes "tsk tsk" every time she passes my shod horse (who is sound and shod by one of the best farriers around)!

LMH

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:19 AM

jjackson-no that behavior doesn't help matters any more than the owner of the shod horse rolling her eyes when a barefoot horse walks by.

Without defending the more than enthusiastic barefooters too much...I do think there IS a sort of valid reason for the response. For many, perhaps a horse had some problem that was frustrating to deal with-once barefoot the horse became better (my 6yo for example)...also as you read and educate yourself there IS alot about keeping a horse barefoot that makes sense. It is sort of like you are reading along and AHA WOW this makes PERFECT sense.

In the midst of all the wow and oooo and ahhh, the owner is so thrilled and excited that she can sometimes forget not everyone has this information-and many don't even care!

Does it help matters? Nope-in fact it can make matters worse if the goal is to simply inform owners that there is another way.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Ghazzu

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:32 AM

Ideally, barefoot would be the "default" condition, with shoes added only when necessary.

My best friend and I were shocked a few years ago, when she bought a young horse who'd never been shod, but had been shown in hand and doen well for his breeder.
She brought him to a show just to see the sights and tried to find a handler to catch lead him. (She was recovering from an ankle injury and couldn't do it.)
The first question they all asked was, is he shod? When told no, they all declined to handle him.
(So I, the clueless, got elected.)

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Dianna

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:35 AM

Who knows. Some horses do well barefoot, some don't.... there isn't an absolute on this issues, there cannot be. There are way too many variables. Now, if all horses were of the same size, conformation, and were used in the same manner, climate and for the same function -perhaps there could be a definitive answer to the question - which is best. But, as of now, there is no definite response.

As for horses that didn't stay sound with shoes but are sound without - I wonder if they would have stayed sound without shoes while competing. Again, very many variables come into play.

Also, I have had horses that simply became way too sore in the transition period one year; but, then a year later, it wasn't a problem.

I think as horse owners, we have to see what we have to work with and make a good choice. Stay away from farriers that say THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, because, that is so far from the truth, that it should send warning bells.

As far as whether the problem lies with poor farrier services - could be - I see far more shoddy farriers than good ones. For my part, less is always more when it comes to a horse and their feet.

LMH

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:37 AM

Ghazzu-you bring up a question-why DO horses have shoes that are only shown in hand?

Why DO halter horses have shoes?

This is completely bewildering to me. And regardless what anyone decides to do long term-it is not healthy for these yearlings and 2yo's to be sporting around in shoes...

Which i guess begs the next question-TB's shod as yearlings (I would assume) and 2yo's. Perhaps it contributes to the years of crappy TB feet?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

LMH

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dianna:
As for horses that didn't stay sound with shoes but are sound without - I wonder if they would have stayed sound without shoes while competing. Again, very many variables come into play.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes they do Dianna http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Many many of them do.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

jester1113

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Which i guess begs the next question-TB's shod as yearlings (I would assume) and 2yo's. Perhaps it contributes to the years of crappy TB feet? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMH, I've been wondering this non stop recently.

Only connect...

Flash44

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:47 AM

I agree that there needs to be flexibility. I have one pony that will hopefully never need a shoe. My TB is in aluminum fronts and steels behind during show season, and steels in front and barefoot behind from November - April.

Dianna

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:47 AM

LMH - I know there are many horses who purportedly compete barefoot and stay sound, as there are literally thousands of horses who compete with shoes - and stay sound.

My question was more based on your comment about your horse that was competing (with shoes) went lame. Pulled shoes, went sound. Went back to competing, went lame and then at pasture was sound.... I was curious if this horse ever competed barefoot and if he didn't, I wonder if being barefoot would have made the difference.

I think that if you have a "GOOD" farrier who knows what they are doing - they can probably keep your horse sound with shoes; and if the horse itself is able, without shoes. But a so-so farrier or worse, is not going to probably succeed in helping any horse stay sound.

Two Toofs

Feb. 2, 2004, 10:54 AM

Barefoot in itself doesn't bother me, but the misinformation that is spread about shoes via internet forums drives me nuts. And I hate to think that some are getting their education about hooves from these types of sources. Shoes do not cause lameness or contraction (or prevent "de-contraction"), nor do they impede hoof mechanism or circulation.

Improperly applied shoes can cause these things, but so can a improperly applied barefoot trim. It is the application, not the shoes. The shoes really have nothing to do with it, operator error (on the part of one shoeing or trimming) is what causes problems.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[This message was edited by Two Toofs on Feb. 02, 2004 at 02:03 PM.]

Dianna

Feb. 2, 2004, 11:00 AM

Two Toofs ... thank you, that was beautifully said ...

Ghazzu

Feb. 2, 2004, 11:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Ghazzu-you bring up a question-why DO horses have shoes that are only shown in hand?

Why DO halter horses have shoes?

This is completely bewildering to me. And regardless what anyone decides to do long term-it is not healthy for these yearlings and 2yo's to be sporting around in shoes...

Which i guess begs the next question-TB's shod as yearlings (I would assume) and 2yo's. Perhaps it contributes to the years of crappy TB feet?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, in this particular case, I suspect it was because the horse in question is a half-Arab, and even though he was being shown in the hunter/stockhorse division vs. the English pleasure type, the BNTs of the Arab scene seem to equate high action with quality.
And shoes will increase action.

This was a few years ago--horse in question is now doing 2nd level dressage and adult hunter division sized fences (very nicely).
His owner usually doesn't divulge his breeding to clinicians, and she's been asked more than once if he's a Dutch warmblood... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh, he does wear shoes now, though--fronts only.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

okggo

Feb. 2, 2004, 11:31 AM

Not a cult-y here, I swear- and my girl has nekkid feet, but no point in putting shoes on a stall potato.
I just wanted to share a story of 'Gold Dust' a 10 year old appy with laminitis. Lame as lame could be, years of fruitless efforts- pads, eggbars, etc etc etc. Owner gave up, gave him away to be a pasture puff- saw him a year later in the hunt field 100% sound and barefoot. So, in some cases less is better.
My gelding came to me with 4 shoes, I pulled the hinds right off. I kept on the fronts b/c he had a horrible lil' club foot that had to constantly be rebuilt b/c it was the size of a nubbin. He lost that left front shoe weekly. So I finally said' okay, you win and left it off. That fixed the problem- the hoof was a nub b/c he would pull chunks of it off with his shoes (and the club foot)- and losing shoes weekly led to a mini foot.
His new owner has him shod all around in is constantly scratching events/hunts b/c he throws that l/f shoe.
Now, by giving those examples I'm not saying you should or should not pull your horses shoes- that is totally dependant on each individual horse, and it's demands. I just thought I would share a couple of 'no shoe' success stories.

My filly’s motto:“when in doubt, run yourself into a frenzy, and impale yourself on a gate.”

swampgum

Feb. 2, 2004, 03:11 PM

Two Hoofs -- you are very wrong with your statement that shoes don't cause contraction. I made a previous posting about this very subject some time ago. It is physically impossible, I repeat physically impossible for the metal shoe not to cause a degree of contraction because of the way a metal shoe changes the weight bearing forces of the hoof against the metal(ground). The direct forces applied from the ground on to the hoof wall of a barefoot start at the white line and as the hoof spreads on weight bearing the forces shift inwards-basically a sliding affect. This cannot happen with a metal shoe nailed on. When a hoof with a metal shoe hits the ground the direct forces applied to the hoof from the ground are at 90 degress (vertical) directly up the hoof wall and stay at 90 degrees. The forces cannot shift inwards as the hoof expands due to a rigid flat surface and this impeding of hoof wall action is what causes contraction. It is only the skill of the farrier which determines what degree of contraction occurs.
LMH- you are totally correct in your statement about stabling. Stable environments are the most destructive lifestyle imaginable for healthy hooves. All the things horses do in satbles results in ammonia which destroys hoof wall. Standing on a hard dry surface combined with waste matters doubles the problem. Standing in stables also is bad for the digestion and metabolism of horses. At all times prevent stable living if you want healthy hooves and horse in general. This stabling of horses for large armies is what created the need for shoeing in the first place. Hooves were destroyed and so they had to put shoes on to keep them sound. Horses living in healthy environments can maintain healthy hooves which don't need shoes. Most ranch horses and the majority of other horses that don't live in stables don't need shoes. Keeping horses barefooted should be everyhorse owners priority if possible and for whatever reason you have to use metal shoes at least let your horses spend half the year barefooted and use boots if needed

Dianna

Feb. 2, 2004, 03:28 PM

Swampgum, I don't intend to get into a debate on this topic, but, no I do not think you can make that 100% statement. Why? Because I have horses who have come to me pinched off, and have been able to bring them up several shoe sizes (or my farrier has).

With a blanket statement like that, I can see where many people would wonder if the barefoot concept is a fad or a cult or whatever. I do not think those hard-core statements do any good when promoting barefoot. Interestingly, you don't hear many people who advocate the use of shoes say, your horse must wear shoes or they will be crippled...

Open mindedness is essentially in this particular world.

TC Manhattan

Feb. 2, 2004, 05:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by okggo:

My gelding came to me with 4 shoes, I pulled the hinds right off. I kept on the fronts b/c he had a horrible lil' club foot that had to constantly be rebuilt b/c it was the size of a nubbin. He lost that left front shoe weekly. So I finally said' okay, you win and left it off. That fixed the problem- the hoof was a nub b/c he would pull chunks of it off with his shoes (and the club foot)- and losing shoes weekly led to a mini foot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OKGGO, I had similar experience several years ago with an Arab of mine. He'd always been shod all around, I kept him that way. One very muddy, wet winter (his second with me) he kept losing shoes weekly. They'd get ripped off, re-set, but chunks of hoof missing and gradually got to where farrier had a difficult time just trying to renail the shoes. His solution to me: pull his shoes and let him go barefoot to let his feet grow out. I remember almost crying as I watched my horse hobble around on what I imagined would end up as "bloody stumps." But the ground was soft and we weren't doing much ring work anyways (no indoor that winter.)

Well, it was a seemingly LOOOONG wait until summer. His feet grew in fine. So fine that he never wore a shoe again for 6 years. We competed (quite successfully at our "low" levels) in 2'9" hunters, through 1st level dressage and BN eventing. The only time he got re-shod was just fronts during one very dry, droughty summer. Basically, his feet grew back like "concrete." They were SO tough it was a challenge for me to rasp him...no soft hooves on THAT pony. (And he was kept at a boarding facility with only 2-3 hrs. T/O per day, the rest was stall-bound.)

Now mind you, I am NOT a fanatic about barefoot. (I didn't really know that this had risen to the level of "cult" status.) But I sure didn't mind saving on the shoeing bills. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Any horse of mine that can stand it will live barefoot. That said, right now I have 1 totally nekked, 1 with fronts only and 1 (and he's the retired one) with shoes all around. Whatever works, but I'm all for shoeless if I can get away with it!

"Have no expectations, only abundant expectancy."

TC Manhattan

Feb. 2, 2004, 05:04 PM

Oh, a bonus: you don't need snowpads when they're barefoot! More $$$ saved! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Have no expectations, only abundant expectancy."

Feb. 2, 2004, 05:16 PM

Dianna - I have no doubt that proper trimming and shoeing can indeed increase the size of the foot, and by a lot in some cases. I'm just not so sure that the shoes still don't limit the true potential.

LMH

Feb. 2, 2004, 06:20 PM

With all the pictures of feet that truly NEED help-I would love to see one of a shod foot, balanced, no contracted heels, no underrun heels, no long toes, no flares and with a hoof width greater than length...

(I am thinking slb will step up here but would love to see others).

I am not saying at all they don't exist-it just seems we are seeing alot of troubled feet lately-so it would be nice to see some good ones!

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

slb

Feb. 2, 2004, 07:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It is physically impossible, I repeat physically impossible for the metal shoe not to cause a degree of contraction because of the way a metal shoe changes the weight bearing forces of the hoof against the metal(ground). The direct forces applied from the ground on to the hoof wall of a barefoot start at the white line and as the hoof spreads on weight bearing the forces shift inwards-basically a sliding affect. This cannot happen with a metal shoe nailed on. When a hoof with a metal shoe hits the ground the direct forces applied to the hoof from the ground are at 90 degress (vertical) directly up the hoof wall and stay at 90 degrees. The forces cannot shift inwards as the hoof expands due to a rigid flat surface and this impeding of hoof wall action is what causes contraction. It is only the skill of the farrier which determines what degree of contraction occurs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Swampgum, I would like to gain a better understanding of this statement. Can you provide a more detailed explaination of *how* the forces are shifted in a shod shoe? Doesn't the shoe simply become an extention of the foot when applied...therefore the forces normally applied to the foot would simply be applied to the shoe, rather than the shoe changing the forces applied to the foot? Do you have references or a link for further reading?

IMO, I can't see this happening to the correctly shod foot. If I understand this correctly, it seems that this would be like saying that a barefoot horse that is on hard level ground will be more likely to contract than one on soft ground. It is well understood that soft ground tends to cause contraction in barefeet and hard ground tends to help the foot to move outward..

I think I might be able to see this happening IF we are taking about the primary loading forces being applied to the hoof wall....but then that is not a correctly shod foot. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Blaufelden

Feb. 2, 2004, 07:52 PM

Any type of shoe WILL cause a contraction of the hoof. Our Oldenburgs & Trakehners have large, excellent feet and always have shown barefooted. On the other hand, we do have an upper level Thoroughbred mare who needs them on the front. There's no way I would put shoes on a great, healthy, balanced hoof if I didn't have to. Its not a cult thing, its common sense.

"... one of those who knows that life is just a leap of faith; spread your arms, hold your breathe and always trust your cape." ~s&g clark~

Mary in Area 1

Feb. 2, 2004, 07:59 PM

I do think the Natural Balance people are a cult. I went to a multi-day seminar at Tufts Veterinary school that invited Dr. Strasser to speak and explain her beliefs and methods and to have questions and discussion with a panel of vets and farriers. It was fascinating.

I attended all the sessions and listened carefully and took notes. By the end of the seminar, I was convinced that Dr. Strasser was one of the most narrow-minded, egotistical, rigid people I have ever met. She basically would not answer the detailed, serious, scholarly questions of the distinguished panelists. She just rolled her eyes and said they didn't understand.

The crowning moment came when someone asked her if there were ANY horses competing at the FEI level with a Natural Balance trim. For a long time, she wouldn't answer, just blabbed on and on about this and that. Finally, someone asked her yes or no. She said no, "that a barefoot horse's hooves would not stand up to that abuse." When pressed for clarification, she replied "Yes, I think that any activity that cannot be done on a barefoot horse is abusive to the horse."

Wow. That made most of the sporthorse people (vets, farriers, riders, trainers, breeders, etc.) in the room realize that this woman was truly bonkers!

"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed."--Pogo

Two Toofs

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
I do think the Natural Balance people are a cult. I went to a multi-day seminar at Tufts Veterinary school that invited Dr. Strasser to speak and explain her beliefs and methods and to have questions and discussion with a panel of vets and farriers. It was fascinating.

I attended all the sessions and listened carefully and took notes. By the end of the seminar, I was convinced that Dr. Strasser was one of the most narrow-minded, egotistical, rigid people I have ever met. She basically would not answer the detailed, serious, scholarly questions of the distinguished panelists. She just rolled her eyes and said they didn't understand.

The crowning moment came when someone asked her if there were ANY horses competing at the FEI level with a Natural Balance trim. For a long time, she wouldn't answer, just blabbed on and on about this and that. Finally, someone asked her yes or no. She said no, "that a barefoot horse's hooves would not stand up to that abuse." When pressed for clarification, she replied "Yes, I think that any activity that cannot be done on a barefoot horse is abusive to the horse."

Wow. That made most of the sporthorse people (vets, farriers, riders, trainers, breeders, etc.) in the room realize that this woman was truly bonkers!

"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed."--Pogo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strasser has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Natural Balance. Completely different theories (and Natural Balance makes shoes as well as having guidelines for trimming).

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

trailblazer

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:04 PM

Is barefoot a trend? It seems that shoeing is the "trend." After all, shoes came later on.

I think people should do what is best for their horses. I am not going to tell a stranger to take shoes off his horse, whom I have never seen.

But to say that shoes are somehow "necessary" for competition is no different than making blanket statements in FAVOR of going barefoot. You might feel that your horse "needs" shoes. For all I know, he does. But how can anyone say that my guys would also need shoes if only I were at a higher level?

Re: contraction. Yes, it happens. 100% of the time? I wouldn't say that - there are always exceptions. But shoes are not some sort of miracle treatment. Be careful. Do your research. Weigh the pros and cons. Yes, there are cons. If you are willing to deal with them, great. Just don't ASSume that those who go barefoot only ride once a month. Do I trail ride? You bet. On rocks, on pavement, across rivers, through fields. If my horse needed shoes, I think he would have reached that point by now. His dressage work is a piece of cake compared to what we do outside of the ring...

Two Toofs

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Blaufelden:
Any type of shoe WILL cause a contraction of the hoof. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If improperly applied.

Properly applied shoes will not cause contraction, and will even allow for a contracted foot to "de-contract" and become normal again.

This is just plain scientific fact and I've seen it with my own eyes over and over again. It just doesn't stand to reason that a properly applied shoe could cause contraction if the hoof is "decontracting" while shod.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

trailblazer

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:07 PM

Oh yeah, good old Strasser... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

She ranks up there with those who say that a horse should be wearing shoes by 2nd level. Yes, I have heard that... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

slb

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Is barefoot a trend? It seems that shoeing is the "trend." After all, shoes came later on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good one Lexiboo http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Blaufelden

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:54 PM

Perhaps I've come to the conclusion that all shoes will cause contraction of the hoof, due to SO many lousy farriers! I however DO know that every time that horse steps down, the hoof - although we can't see it - is moving; spreading if you will, due to obvious weight bearing. And its meant to absorb just like our own feet do. If there's any impingement, then we have a problem in the making.

"... one of those who knows that life is just a leap of faith; spread your arms, hold your breathe and always trust your cape." ~s&g clark~

Lookout

Feb. 2, 2004, 09:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Two Toofs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Blaufelden:
Any type of shoe WILL cause a contraction of the hoof. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If improperly applied.

Properly applied shoes will not cause contraction, and will even allow for a contracted foot to "de-contract" and become normal again.

This is just plain scientific fact and I've seen it with my own eyes over and over again. It just doesn't stand to reason that a properly applied shoe could cause contraction if the hoof is "decontracting" while shod.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So, how does an improperly applied shoe cause contraction? And how does a properly applied one prevent it? Specifically? Those feet you saw decontract in shoes, how did they get contracted?

username

Feb. 2, 2004, 11:01 PM

somewhat confused (my natural state, it appears) about why anyone would feel pressured either way re bare feet. Perhaps people aren't giving it enough time. It was suggested to me a while ago that my huge, heavy WB would need a year of growing bare feet before his feet would be great bare and not to do it if I could not give him that time.

As it happened, he went bare for a year and (you guessed it) his feet ARE great! They have a strong flexible horn that gleams as though it were polished, and only rarely is there any smoothing of rough edges common to the bare footed ones.

Oldest guy has been bare since we got him years ago simply because his (then) brittle feet COULD not support shoes. Youngest (17) has never had shoes in his life and has feet like a mountain goat and trailrides ANYWHERE without damage!

Does this mean YOU should try it??? I highly doubt it! Like anything else you have to gather as much info as you can that is pertinent to your own situation and then make a decision to give it a FAIR trial and be self-responsible for the results. Don't let anyone else TELL you what to do because YOU have to live with the results! DO take the opportunity to look into it though...just because "that's the way we have always done it" doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. But it has to work for YOUR situation. And only yours.

Two Toofs

Feb. 3, 2004, 03:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:

So, how does an improperly applied shoe cause contraction? And how does a properly applied one prevent it? Specifically? Those feet you saw decontract in shoes, how did they get contracted?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a non-scientific nutshell, an improperly fitted shoe (too small) is probably one of the biggest causes of contraction. Toes too long/breakover misplaced is another contributing factor. You see a lot of TBs off the track with contracted feet because there is a tendency to shoe short at the track in order to try to be certain that a horse doesn't pull a shoe during training/racing. It's the "old timers" way of some, rather than learn the skills needed to keep a properly fitted shoe on the foot during these extreme circumstances (racing).

Too long between resets can also contribute.

If you don't have a properly fitted shoe, it will pull the heels forward as they will have nowhere else to go. They need to have the room to grow where they are supposed to and the horse needs some sort of base of support for the rear of the foot. Also contributing further is the tendency to not remove the contracted/underrun heel, an error in thinking that you don't want to remove heel if the horse doesn't have much. But until it is removed and given the room it needs to grow properly, it will never correct itself.

Trimming too much frog can contribute. Enough should be left that the frog is able to touch the ground when the hoof is fully loaded during movement. If the conformation of the hoof makes this difficult, some sort of frog support should be added.

Nails behind the widest part of the foot are a huge no-no and asking for problems.

Want to make a huge mess? Don't remove the underrun heel and put on a wedge, add insult to injury by wedging without some form of sole/frog support http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif (should never be done). Sometimes it is necessary to add sole/frog support after removing underrun heels and affording the rear of the damaged foot to be able to function in order to remodel itself. Not necessarily a permanent measure, but can speed up the remodeling process.

The longer the hoof remains improperly shod, the more damage is caused and the longer it will take to correct. Over time, the digital cushion becomes damaged & deformed and will not remodel itself properly until the causes of the damage are removed. The more damage, the longer to remodel. This is why it is preferable to pull shoes and let a horse go barefoot, even just wearing itself, that to remain improperly shod. However, a properly shod horse can remodel more quickly properly shod than barefoot. I've seen horses severely damaged by improper shoeing that needed to be shod properly a time or two and get well on the way to restoring proper form so that they could go barefoot (yes, shoeing in preparation for barefoot!) The changes that are made during this time put the hoof in a better position to withstand going barefoot with a lesser amount of transition time. Barefoot or properly shod, it can take a year (or more in severe cases) to restore proper hoof form.

Another reason (IMO) that you see poor hoof quality in horses coming off the track is that generally their legs are at least washed off/hosed daily - even when just coming in from the walker.

Be sure the horse is landing heel first or flat. Landing toe first (too long of toes, improperly placed breakover, etc.) contributes to contraction. Things like setting the shoe back a bit (with breakover properly addressed) allows the toe to wear itself naturally between resets. I have one shod like this in NBS and his toes never need to be trimmed. He wears them himself, they never change length.

So how did those feet get contracted? Improperly fitted and/or applied shoes. How did they "de-contract"? Properly fitted & applied shoes.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

jester1113

Feb. 3, 2004, 05:18 AM

I was just reading a chapter on the "deleterious" effect of shoes from Jaime Jackson's book on the ride in this am (he uses that word a lot http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). I can xerox a few pages and fax if anyone is interested. He has some good diagrams of the how the hoof expands and contracts on loading/weight-bearing, and how shoes impede this process. I can TRY to turn the xeroxs into pdf's, but can't guarantee legibility...

Interesting read.

Only connect...

Schoolmarm

Feb. 3, 2004, 06:08 AM

I swing both ways. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have a horse who is 13 now and has never been shod, and who has shown consistently over the years, Eq, Pleasure, dressage and over fences with no problems. On the other hand, I have a horse who CANNOT go without front shoes for so much as a day or she is lame for months. Post-founder, low soles, bad feet. The rest of my 7 horses are mixed--some entirely barefoot, others with fronts only, none with all 4.

So, IMHO, it's important to read, learn, and watch the horses. If they can go barefoot, great. I have definitely found that horses who don't have nail holes in their hooves tend to have fewer cracks and breakages, and there's never a nail hole abscess or a chance of "quicking". But, again, it's a horse-by-horse issue. I don't think anyone can logically deny that barefoot is natural, but to force either style just because it's the latest thing or what "everyone I know is doing" is bad horsemanship. It took me a looooooong time, by the way, to find a good, flat-shoer who could do a barefoot trim without soring or laming the horse, so this is not a simple question.

I must also say, though, that I've never done so much damage to a horse as I did during a brief binge of "corrective" shoeing. I believe that far more important than the barefoot vs shod controversy is the question of whether some owners over-correct, temporarily improving movement at the expense of cartilage and tendon damage. Barefoot or shod, a horse's conformation MUST be taken into account.

**If you're lucky enough to own a horse, you're lucky enough.**

**Proud author of newly-released It's a Horse's Life!**

situpandride

Feb. 3, 2004, 06:39 AM

I've owned horses for 20 years and have rarely had one shod, if they come shod, I take the shoes off, it might take a year to have them barefoot and rideable but I have time so it doesn't matter. I am not anti shoe, I just don't see why I should do something the horse doesn't need, if the horse needed shoes, I've had them shod. Rarely have they needed shoes.
I don't think people that shoe their horses are stupid and cruel, for what some horses are expected to do and they way they are expected to live and for the amount of time they have to acclimate, it might be better for the horse to be shod. I've ridden my barefoot horses over all kinds of terrain and participated in many different disciplines, it has taken a big effort to keep them barefoot and sound but there's nothing wrong with shoeing if that's what you have to do.

Dianna

Feb. 3, 2004, 09:59 AM

As I read through these posts, there is one thing evident - these types of posts are fruitless ... in fact, detrimental.

I think that barefoot vs. shod is one of those issues that is a very personal thing .. heck, I have a barn full of horses right now, none of which have shoes on. They will start back to training and continue barefoot so long as I feel it is in their best interests.

But, the best interest of our individual horses is a very "individual" choice; and, I think blanket statements - such as, all horses in shoes will have contracted feet is a sad statement. It is one that demonstrates a closed-mindedness that keeps the horse world from moving forward. Again, I don't think there is any horseman that would say that ALL horses have to be in shoes.

The horses that I have seen go up in shoe sizes needed to do so because of poor farrier work, for various reasons, the most common was that they were way too pinched off.

TC Manhattan

Feb. 3, 2004, 10:54 AM

DIANNA, I beg to differ with you. I think a forum like this thread can be VERY educational. I learned alot (and dismissed some as well) and a special THANK YOU to TWO TOOFS! Your post was very informative! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

"Have no expectations, only abundant expectancy."

LMH

Feb. 3, 2004, 02:56 PM

I agree with TC-I have learned a lot from different posts on different topics where a debate was going on! Think about the higher fat debates or training dicsussions!

There may be some point one person makes that lets the lightbulb click on http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

swampgum

Feb. 3, 2004, 04:01 PM

SLB-- in answer to your question. For a hoof to work (function) correctly it simply has to be able to have maximum ground contact in all the correct places as nature intended. Adequate frog pressure--which applies forces to the digital cushion that in turn applies adequate pressure onto the lateral cartilages which compresses the venous plexous which results in blood being forced from the hoof up the leg--hence good circulation. What happens when our bodies don't have proper circulation--things go wrong. A horse is no different. This action of the frog and digital cushion also forces the rear quarters of the hoof out into their correct position. So when a metal shoe is nailed on it is impossible for the frog to get the correct amount of ground contact to perform these two vital functions . It is so simple to see when you have an understanding of how a hoof works. In regard to my earlier email the shoe also affects the distribution of weight onto the hoof wall at weight bearing because the flat rigid surface of the shoe prevents the ground making contact with the inside of the white line. As I previously explained as the hoof bears weight the barefooted hoof starts to spread and the load shifts from the initial contact--the hoof wall (white line and outside hoof wall which the metal shoe sits on) to the inside of the white line. This is a major shift in forces appied to the hoof. This results in the external upward forces applied to the hoof laminae which are initially at 90 deg at the point of impact changing to less than 45 deg against the hoof wall as a result of the hoof spreading. This change in weight bearing is vital to change the angle of pressure exerted onto the hoof wall in the rear quarter area of the hoof which is the most important part of the entire hoof as it is exposed to the most direct forces which are applied at ground contact. With a metal shoe nailed on the impact forces are from a flat rigid surface and they stay at 90 deg which results in an absence of vital sideways pressure being exerted to the wall laminae so it is impossible for the wall to grow into the correct position. So I repeat again that ALL SHOES CAUSE CONTRACTION but if the farrier is skilled and or particular he will minimise the amount of contraction by correct positioning of the rear branches of the shoe combined with ensuring regular shoeing.

slb

Feb. 3, 2004, 05:33 PM

Swampgum...thanks for taking time to explain. I'm not sure that I argee with your model of function, but that is a moot point to this discussion.

The main point is that (as I mentioned before) it seems your model assumes that the hoof wall is the primary weight bearing surface in a shod foot (or a bare one for that matter). This is true in cases of incorrect trimming or shoeing applications or in cases where this is intentionally done for a particular purpose. However, this is not so of a correctly trimmed or shod foot.

If the foot is correctly shod, the weight is shared across the foot. Primarily in the rear 2/3 of the foot (heel, frog, and bars) and at the lateral corners of the toe where point of breakover occurs.

There is nothing that prevents the frog from making ground contact in a shod foot...unless the farrier trims it continually. There is also nothing that prevents the heels from expanding in a properly shod foot...ok, I will give you they are reduced by approx .1mm at the walk and .16mm at the trot...and thus nothing prevents the foot from functioning properly...unless you believe that .1mm is enough to prevent that from happening.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Egioja

Feb. 3, 2004, 08:10 PM

Ok, I'm a barefoot person-I'll come right out and say it, as a matter of fact I have been doing the trims on my own (well, mostly-eveyr nwo and then its nice to get a farrier out to give me somethign to work with) for almost 2 years now.

That being said-I find there are 2 differn types of barefooters-the ones that say, hey, i tried it (for whatever reason), and it has worked great for me-this is what I have found, and these are the improvemnts I've seen. I highly recommend giving it a shot, and here are some sites/info to get you started. Then there is the "how dare you, take of those horses shoes immediatly, pay for the course and get her hind end in trimming gear before you ruin your horses feet even more" people. These people tend to be cult-like. I also find that, for the most part, these are the people that are incredibly anal about the trims-they sit there and measure, and do it all by the exact strasser method, whereas the others just do what works for each horse.

If you do some research on it you will find thats it is all based on the physiology fo the hoof, and when you ask a farrier about it they will agree (well, of course it depends how you mention it-but saying something like "I heard that concavity helps the hoof contract/detract and therefore helps with bloodflow-is that true?" you will get an agreement).

camohn

Feb. 4, 2004, 05:37 AM

I showed Boomer in hand barefoot at Devon. I don't really know or care if that was politically correct. Personally my whole reason for showing him in hand is simply to get out and see the sights. He has good big feet and I don't really intend to put him in shoes until the day comes I have to. He is just starting under saddle.........but mostly gets worked on the grass (when it isn't covered with ice like now!) or a neighbor's sand ring. Our horses live out except for inclement weather. All the mares are barefoot, Boomer is barefoot. The competition horses are shod in the summer and shoes pulled for the winter except for 1 Appy gelding with shelly feet that has to stay in front shoes or they crack.

Providence Farm

marta

Feb. 4, 2004, 07:50 AM

slb and swampgum~
my vet recently told me that it's the hoof wall that bears the weight, too. unless i misunderstood him. i thought the 2/3 and 1/3 was w/ re to the weight distribution on the hoof wall. i'd like to hear more about this. please clarify.

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

slb

Feb. 4, 2004, 09:06 AM

No, primary hoof wall loading has been a misconception in the past and thus has skewed much of the research regarding hoof mechanism as well as our perspective of optimal hoof form and function. Research on feral horses and carried over to research in domestic horses (see Bowker's research (http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm) has revealed that the foot requires and equal load sharing configuration in order to function normally. By "equal", I mean that the hoof wall, frog, bars and sole all partake in weight bearing. Ground contact or support of the frog is of primary importance in promoting hoof health and optimal function. The bars are an extention of the hoof wall and should be passively weight bearing. This means that they should be easily identifiable (not laid over on the sole), straight and not curved, and never cut lower then the level of the live sole plane...ideally, slightly higher is better. The tip of the toe should never touch the ground while the horse is standing - ground contact should end at the point of breakover (behind the white line).

Swampgum is correct in some assumptions that shoeing *often* results in primary hoof wall loading. However, it has been 1-2 decades since it was discovered that "nature" intended for the foot to share its load. This actually became evident long before Jackson, Ovnicek (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/research/whstudy/whstudy.html) Ovnicek and Bowker hit the BLM pens for observation. Many farriers and owners realized centuries ago that horses often "healed" themselves when left barefoot or during winter months when snow filled the shoes.

It is evident from the discussion on this and other BBs that we generally understand the problems associated with primary hoof wall loading - quarter cracks, toe splits, stretched white lines. I think that we miss the boat when we think of these things *just as* long toes and flares.

Unfortunately, it is evident that many farriers still follow the principles of primary hoof wall loading and do not observe what the foot really needs. IMO, good farriers understand the importance of a shared load and provide for that reagardless of if the horse is shod or barefoot.

Hope this makes sense and happy reading http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

LMH

Feb. 4, 2004, 09:20 AM

the bowker research is a GREAT read...

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

camohn

Feb. 4, 2004, 11:16 AM

Where can I find pics of a low heel vs. an actually under run heel?

Providence Farm

slb

Feb. 4, 2004, 11:42 AM

www.barefoothorses.com (http://www.barefoothorses.com)
She should have examples of well trimmed feet and some of underrun heels with remarks next to them.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

hansiska

Feb. 4, 2004, 12:59 PM

Yes! Now forsake your farrier gods and pass the Hi-C....

No, really, if you Can leave them barefoot, Do. (At least that's my mantra http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif).

swampgum

Feb. 4, 2004, 02:42 PM

SlB-- you are correct in your statement that "nature" intended the hoof to share it's load. The outer hoof wall first, then the frog and bars and to a lesser extent the sole. They all play an important role in creating proper hoof mechanism. If one of these structures is prevented from receiving it's maximum load then its function is interrupted and hence proper hoof mechanism is inhibited. A simplistic way of saying all this is to portray the hoof as a series of building blocks. If you take one away you have not got sound support.
I don't want to repeat myself from earlier posts but I must rebuff a staement made about the frog. Somebody wrote that the weight bearing of the frog is not affected by a properly applied metal shoe. This is a ridiculous statement. Question--How can the frog make adequate ground contact when there is over 1/4" of metal between the ground and the hoof wall? How far does a person who makes that claim think the hoof descends on weight bearing? All the proof that is needed to clearly show how a metal shoe prevents adequate frog ground contact is to simply look at the frogs on a barefoot horse and then look at a frogs of a hoof that is always shod.!!Debate over. The barefoot frog is twice the size of a shod hoof's.The reason is one is stimulated which keeps it healthy and functioning properly and the other one isn't. End of story

slb

Feb. 4, 2004, 03:03 PM

Swampgum...I would agree that many frogs on shod feet are smaller than those on many barefeet. But, from my experience with shod and unshod horses, there doesn't have to be a difference. I have also seen larger frogs on shod feet than barefeet. And, I have seen larger frogs on shod feet that were unhealthy - that is why they were larger. So, I don't think that you can make a generalized statement like that and announce that it is evidence that frogs don't touch the ground in shoes.

How does the frog touch the gound in a shod foot? Well, since the frog will grow down at least 1/4" to meet the ground in a barefoot that needs a trim, it will do the same in a shod foot. The reasons that they don't generally is because the frog is kept trimmed too short or it is deteriorated for various reasons.

Cripes...I had a long time barefoot horse with no frogs once! They deteriorated down to about half their original size and then suddenly, they were gone! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

We had suspected that he had "deep seated" thrush and that was confirmed when the frogs wasted away. They grew back rapidly to their original size. He had a compromized immune system that led to all this (long story made short).

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

LMH

Feb. 4, 2004, 03:43 PM

wow-slb-that happened to my donk...his frogs just LEFT THE BUILDING...GONE! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

They are coming back now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But that was WILD to see.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Two Toofs

Feb. 4, 2004, 04:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by swampgum:
How can the frog make adequate ground contact when there is over 1/4" of metal between the ground and the hoof wall? How far does a person who makes that claim think the hoof descends on weight bearing? All the proof that is needed to clearly show how a metal shoe prevents adequate frog ground contact is to simply look at the frogs on a barefoot horse and then look at a frogs of a hoof that is always shod.!!Debate over. The barefoot frog is twice the size of a shod hoof's.The reason is one is stimulated which keeps it healthy and functioning properly and the other one isn't. End of story<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As somebody who owns shod horses with nice big (but not too big) healthy frogs that function properly......

Like SLB said, don't trim the frog and typically by the next shoeing it will be able to touch the ground and function. If it doesn't, or if there are other circumstances that have made an iddy biddy frog, then some sort of frog support is in order until the frog is healthy enough to function without it. Only portions of the frog that are obviously shedding should ever be removed. Shoes that are made to hold dirt in the rear of the foot can also be helpful in allowing the frog to function properly (and an untrimmed frog will assist in this as well). There are plenty of ways to achieve proper frog function for a shod horse.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Invite

Feb. 4, 2004, 04:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
I do think the Natural Balance people are a cult. I went to a multi-day seminar at Tufts Veterinary school that invited Dr. Strasser to speak and explain her beliefs and methods and to have questions and discussion with a panel of vets and farriers. It was fascinating.

I attended all the sessions and listened carefully and took notes. By the end of the seminar, I was convinced that Dr. Strasser was one of the most narrow-minded, egotistical, rigid people I have ever met. She basically would not answer the detailed, serious, scholarly questions of the distinguished panelists. She just rolled her eyes and said they didn't understand.

The crowning moment came when someone asked her if there were ANY horses competing at the FEI level with a Natural Balance trim. For a long time, she wouldn't answer, just blabbed on and on about this and that. Finally, someone asked her yes or no. She said no, "that a barefoot horse's hooves would not stand up to that abuse." When pressed for clarification, she replied "Yes, I think that any activity that cannot be done on a barefoot horse is abusive to the horse."

Wow. That made most of the sporthorse people (vets, farriers, riders, trainers, breeders, etc.) in the room realize that this woman was truly bonkers!

"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed."--Pogo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything like that, but I'm honestly wondering why an FEI level dressage horse's hooves can't stand up to the work when he's barefoot. Is it that the horses' hooves are not sturdy enough or is it that the trainers don't want to risk loss of training time, as it would take time for a formerly shod horse to grow enough hoof to go barefoot? I guess I'm basically wondering if a horse with excellent hooves would need to be shod as he moved up in competition levels. I'm not trying to pass judgement on barefoot vs. shod, I am just curious. TIA http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

trailblazer

Feb. 4, 2004, 04:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Invite:
I'm not trying to start an argument or anything like that, but I'm honestly wondering why an FEI level dressage horse's hooves can't stand up to the work when he's barefoot. Is it that the horses' hooves are not sturdy enough or is it that the trainers don't want to risk loss of training time, as it would take time for a formerly shod horse to grow enough hoof to go barefoot? I guess I'm basically wondering if a horse with excellent hooves would need to be shod as he moved up in competition levels. I'm not trying to pass judgement on barefoot vs. shod, I am just curious. TIA http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think there is anything inherent in dressage that makes shoes necessary. An individual horse may need them for whatever reason (although I'm not sure what they might be http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif ), but I vehemently disagree with the statement that there is something about dressage that requires shoes! The only thing I can think of is that working on soft ground so much may somehow prevent a horse from growing tough hooves??? But this is not the fault of dressage, is it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So, why DO FEI horses wear shoes? I don't have a good answer for you. Some may genuinely need them. Some may have them put on by default. And it IS quite a process to go back to barefoot... I'm sure some of it is just "the thing to do." An acquaintence recently shod her yearling. I don't know the baby well enough to say that the owner did the wrong thing, but I did ask her why. She said her trainer told her to. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif So now there is a yearling out there who does not even have a job yet, but he has holes in his feet...

P.S. It's a good idea to take Strasser with a grain of salt. She makes the rest of us look bad. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Lookout

Feb. 4, 2004, 06:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lexiboo:
P.S. It's a good idea to take Strasser with a grain of salt. She makes the rest of us look bad. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How so?

I do not agree that the sole is weightbearing (other than the part where there is no coffin bone underneath). The coffin bone is suspended from the wall by the laminae. The sole cannot be weightbearing because if the weight descended onto it via the coffin bone, all the blood vessels between the bottom of the coffin bone and the top of the sole would be crushed with each step.

slb

Feb. 4, 2004, 07:16 PM

Hmmm....then why do all mustangs have a callous that denotes major weight bearing at point of breakover?

Lookout...would you agree that if one part of the sole is weight bearing, that all of it must be? In other words...because it is one entity, it would bear the distribution of weight across the whole entity...even if only the outer edge of it touched the ground?

And, what makes you think that the coffin bone decends to any great degree...ie to put pressure on the solar corium? How much does a coffin bone decend within the hoof capsule? And are you refering to a hoof that is optimal in form and function, or are you refering to a hoof with a compromised laminar connection that would allow the coffin bone to sink deeply into the capsule?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

sit up

Feb. 4, 2004, 08:28 PM

I've got a friend who started the barefoot thing a few years ago when her young WB was diagnosed with navicular disease. She follows Dr. Strausser's advice on the trim etc.

What I don't get is that the horse was totally lame for about 9 months getting used to this trim and walking on the river rocks that she put in the pasture to toughen up his feet.

I do agree with the 24 hour turn out. I think it is best for the horses for many different reasons. OK, maybe they also need to walk over rocky areas to toughen up their feet too but when they could have shod him correctively and had him comfortable for many many years (navicular was very minor) I don't get this drastic change.

She trims the horse's feet every day. It is just a huge commitment and not feasible for all but a tiny fraction of horse owners.

He is still not totally sound and basically all she does it a little dressage and trails. I believe that with a good farrier, the horse would be sounder with a lot less work.

slb

Feb. 4, 2004, 09:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sit up:
...they could have shod him correctively and had him comfortable for many many years (navicular was very minor) I don't get this drastic change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah Sit up...that is exactly the point to Strasser's methods. There are implications of "a lifetime of soundness" if you will just allow your horse to be lame for a year or two while its feet "heal" and never shod again, because shoes are what caused the lameness to begin with. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

LMH

Feb. 5, 2004, 05:57 AM

Another sad Strasser story giving all barefoot a bad name. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Schoolmarm

Feb. 5, 2004, 06:03 AM

SLB: Thanks for the outstanding information! Those research reports will be making the rounds around here, I can assure you.

**If you're lucky enough to own a horse, you're lucky enough.**

**Proud author of newly-released It's a Horse's Life!**

CrossedWings

Feb. 5, 2004, 06:44 AM

I haven't seen all the other barefoot topics but I'll just say a few things...

A) If I'm lucky enough to have a horse that has good strong feet, that do not wear down, I don't bother putting shoes on ever; I had one such pony that never wore shoes because her feet were like rock....

B) If I have a horse (which I tend to be getting lately) that has wimpy little feet that wear away like nothing I put shoes on so that, while working, they still have feet!

I always prefer barefoot if a horses foot will stand up; however, with the exception of one mare, all of my horses (when gone to work) have required shoes to keep their feet from wearing down too much.... It's either shoes or no feet.....

Quote for the week:

"Never under-estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers." - Shirt Slogan

hoppy

Feb. 5, 2004, 01:09 PM

Dune , I'll have to argue with your statement that real sporthorses will,in reality, need shoes. Sporthorses and horses that work jobs ie; ranch horses in my experience, don't always need shoes. A lot of ranches use horses exclusively for working cattle, sure they could use quads and such, but the experience these horses gain is much more valuable than the "easy way".My grandfather was one such man.
The horses he used had excellent feet, and were never shod. 8-10 hours a day, they were rode. He'd only trade off horses when roping and dragging back to the brand area.Fences were constantly rode to check for repairs.Many miles a day were done with no shoes. I don't shoe, maybe if only my horses have great feet, but it is a person's choice to shoe or not. FEI quality horses might not have the good hoof quality as the "good ole cow ponies". if they need shoes. Just a comment on comparing horses that work.

Dianna

Feb. 5, 2004, 01:58 PM

To all of you that have a far better handle of the pros and cons of barefoot as a regular lifestyle...

Does the horse's environment - such as here in Arizona - while my particular horses are out from 7:00 to 7:00 (and realistically could be out 24/7); but, the area they are in is not that large, and it is definitely a sand base. Therefore, while they can play and move about, it wouldn't be a lot of continuous movement. For the most part, their play (which is usually very rough) is in place, with periodic bolting and then back to a "you can't move me stance" until the next bolt.

Then to add to that, we have limited moisture in the air, in the ground and very little rain fall.

Would all this be conducive or counterproductive to keeping a horse barefoot as his regular routine?

I hope that made sense.

swampgum

Feb. 5, 2004, 03:34 PM

Two Hoofs-- A frog growing downwards is no indication of a healthy functioning frog--it is the opposite. It is a non-functioning unhealthy frog and very rubbery in texture as a result of insufficient ground pressure. It is only growing down because it is "searching for sufficient ground contact which is absent but necessary for proper hoof mechanism. It is not growing down for any other reason. The pressure required to provide sufficient upward pressure is not present from a frog that is only resting on the ground when the hoof has totally flattened out at maximum expansion. The further the frog has to grow down the more the quarters contract because the hoof is lacking mechanism and there is only passive pressure on the frog. It is the width of the frog which indicates sufficient ground contact and health NOT HEIGHT..

Two Toofs

Feb. 5, 2004, 06:23 PM

It's not just "growing down", it's a matter of not trimming anything except obviously shedding material and it's the size of the frog as a whole. Also, if the frog is not overly trimmed, a 'lip' of sorts is formed that allows dirt/sand to pack in the rear of the foot, helping the frog to function. There are also shoes made that help to make this very thing possible as well - holding dirt in the rear of the foot. And if it's still not functioning properly, then some sort of frog support should be added. All of this takes into consideration that the heels are not too high nor underrun. I'll invite you to look into some of the studies and techniques performed and developed by Ovnicek.

Otherwise, I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I see functioning, healthy, good-sized frogs on my horses - shod or otherwise. I dare say no one is going to convince me that what I see isn't there.

And BTW, it's Two Toofs. Thanks.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

trailblazer

Feb. 5, 2004, 06:40 PM

Oh my gosh! All this time I also thought it was "Two Hoofs." Weird...

-Bailey-

Feb. 5, 2004, 06:41 PM

some people are, some people aren't. It just depends on how pushy you are for other people to join.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Love you all-

**Formerly known as Elijah**
Founder of Spooky Horses Clique
Appaloosa Clique * Mare TB Clique
Arabian Clique * Paint Clique
http://community.webshots.com/user/baileyjump1118

Lookout

Feb. 6, 2004, 07:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb:
Hmmm....then why do all mustangs have a callous that denotes major weight bearing at point of breakover?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
it doesn't
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> would you agree that if one part of the sole is weight bearing, that all of it must be? In other words...because it is one entity, it would bear the distribution of weight across the whole entity...even if only the outer edge of it touched the ground <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>it's not one entity. there is a frog and digital cushion as well as other structures.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And, what makes you think that the coffin bone decends to any great degree...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nothing.

jrz

May. 26, 2004, 09:07 PM

My TB front feet were a mess until I went barefoot. He was often losing shoes and getting
abcesses. I use Keratex and Old Mac's and Cornucresine and his feet look great - nice heels, nice steep angle.

IMO, too much frog is trimmed off, toes are too long, people should leave dirt in. The whole foot in supposed to take some weight, not just the hoof wall. A low frog and dirt are necesary to pump blood.

Shadowsrider

May. 27, 2004, 10:13 AM

Very interesting discussion, quite informative.

I just wanted to point out that in a previous post someone mentioned that Strasser and the Natural Balance technique were the same. They aren't, though, they are worlds apart.

Gene Ovnicek is the person behind the Natural Balance way of trimming and shoeing. My farrier uses the Natural Balance technique and my gelding has large, healthy feet with shoes on for 8 months of the year. My mare is perfectly sound even though she has had navicular for many years as well as insulin resistant (therefore has foundered many times before I got her) and her previous owners were on the verge of having her put down.

A also wanted to agree that it is great of a horse can perform the job we ask of it while barefoot, but it is, IMO, irresponsible to refuse to shoe the horse on principle only, if the demands of it's job, or the issue of where it is boarded/kept or it's genetics necessitate the use of shoes.

Here is the website for Gene Ovnicek's Natural Balance way of trimming and shoeing:

http://www.edsshoofcare.com/

ExRacer

May. 27, 2004, 11:49 AM

Well, I didn't read through this thread, or the other barefoot threads for that matter... but my opinion? Do what's best for YOUR horse. Right now my mare is barefoot, at the recommendation of my farrier (who said her hooves are so strong, why put holes in them?). I've had her shod before, and I might again. But right now, she's happy and healthy without them. It's up to the owner of the horse and the farrier to figure out what is best for each individual horse. Who cares either way, as long as the horse is healthy?

swampgum

May. 27, 2004, 05:25 PM

It makes sense that as a horse owner your first preference should be to try your utmost to keep your horses barefooted. If you can achieve this goal owning a horse will be cheaper --no shoeing costs every six weeks, sounder horses for longer as a result of less arthritis and less hoof injuries and healthier hooves as a result of not having nails driven into them.

CosmosMariner

May. 27, 2004, 06:58 PM

I think it depends upon the horse. I have a farrier I trust without question. Two of mine are barefoot and two are shod on the front only. We also have one horse on the property who is shod on all four. I do what he suggests. The two who are barefoot have great feet and do light riding. The two who have the fronts are younger and do more jumping and riding out. The one with shoes on all fours has terrible feet and really needs them. In some instances I think that shoes actually get in the way and are not helpful at all. I also think that some horses really need shoes to be comfortable. There is no black and white answer to this question.

spirithorse

May. 27, 2004, 08:00 PM

Ok, five pages says alot about this issue. I am a barefoot horseman, unless shoes are needed to correct a problem. For rough country rides, the Old Macs are put on. Cow horses, dressage horses, jumpers, even my racehorses are barefoot..............As for the Strasser method, one should really check it out because I have seen and heard nothing but complaints about sore horses afterwards. The natural method on the other hand is based on sound fact that the horses show. I have seen soooo many horses with so called bad feet wearing shoes and within six months of barefooting the feet are sooooooo much better.

swampgum

May. 28, 2004, 05:31 AM

Well said Spirit Horse. This subject started off by asking "is barefoot a cult?". You could nearly turn that statement around and say " has shoeing over the past 100 years become a cult." So many horses and I mean the majority here have been shod unneccessarily.How many horse owners with horses with beautiful healthy hooves have been coerced into shoeing their horses . How is it that horses of ALL breeds can live their lives as working horses on ranches on the plains and in the mountains and have never seen a metal shoe in their lives and yet the majority of horse owners believe that their pets cannot be ridden without shoes. We have certainly done our horses a serious mis justice.Fortunately this is changing by the spreading barefoot movement. How many people do I hear from in my travels who have successfully gone barefoot after having been told by the "experts" you will never do it. I guess those that keep their horses in a stable environment will always have to shoe their horses as the environment of manure and urine destroys healthy hoof laminae which is necessary for a successful transition to barefoot but for the rest of the horses that have open spaces to roam barefoot is a workable option with PROPER trimming and ample roadwork which are vital for achieving healthy functioning hooves that can go anywhere

spirithorse

May. 28, 2004, 06:24 AM

Swampgum,

Nicely stated. I would add that the stable environment is not the cause of bad feet, it is the lack of care by the owner/rider/barn. Also I have taught soooo many people how easy it is to keep the hoof trimmed properly so that it wears correctly and breakouts are kept at a minimum. The majority of people I teach end up doing their own barefoot work and love it, while there are those who physically cannot and need help, but with the knowledge I give them, they are in control of the horse's feet.

jrz

May. 28, 2004, 12:59 PM

I should add that by selectively using Old Mac's, I can manage my TBs feet such that he rarely needs a trim. Ie, I'll ride him barefoot in soft footing and use Old Mac's when it's rocky or when I need studs (I have Old Mac's with studs added).

swampgum

May. 28, 2004, 04:52 PM

JRZ-totally agree. Old Macs help you cross that line of "can't keep my horses barefooted to can keep my horses barefooted"

sweetfern

May. 28, 2004, 08:04 PM

Here! Hear! Barefoot when possible, please!
I have one ouchy TK who gets front shoes only, the rest of them, even my fancy SWB, barefoot!
If my TK had better balance, and didn't wear down her front feet so fast she'd be barefoot too! Maybe someday.......

Whoanellie

May. 29, 2004, 07:02 AM

Currently, all the horses at TIER are barefoot. In the spring, 3 of our residents (2 with Cushings-founder and one with Navicular) always seem to get Big Time abcesses. Our regular farrier always does the shoes/pads treatment during these episodes.

We also have a 9yr. old gelding named Zip that chronically founders. He came to us absolutely loaded with chemicals (had been on isoxsuprine for 8 months, Thyroid medication, Buted to his eyeballs, diet of bermuda & beet pulp, his own bottle of bleach to clean his feet, shoes & pads). Basically, we detoxed him off the Isoxsuprine (sp?) and thyroid medication (per our vet), changed his diet (timothy), used Pro-Bi to get some good gut flora going and then used Invigor to feed the good gut flora and pulled his shoes. Our regular farrier wanted to put shoes pads on him again as his hooves were just falling apart. I chose to have him barefoot, so he was only trimmed. Not a balanced trim as is being talked about here.

Zip did okay until I let him graze for a day or two and I found him lying down, in a sweat. I thought it was colic until he stood up with his legs shaking and barely able to walk. I immediately put him in a large, dry pen, administered banamine and called Michael LaGrone who is a barefoot trimmer out of Oklahoma. Michael flew out (he comes to our area of California every 5 weeks) and went to work on Zip. This is the last ditch effort for Zip. If his life was to be continual episodes of horrible pain, lying down (he came to us with sores on hips/hocks from lying down, thin and his coat was coarse/dull), unable to walk very far, etc. etc. we would put him down. He was only 9 yrs. old and I could not see him suffering for the rest of his life like that. What kind of life is that anyway?

Zip is doing very well now. Michael's efforts, diet change, introduction of probiotics, etc. have all helped him tremendously. I was so impressed with how Zip is progressing that we had Michael work on the 3 horses I mentioned in my first paragraph above. That was last Monday. All 3 are cruising around, eating well and moving comfortably!! All 3 had very soft soles due to being in the pads and one still had a draining abcess (big hoorah for duct tape!!). Although they all stepped out gingerly after Michael was done, by the next day 2 of them were walking/trotting around normally. The one with the draining abcess is moving very well and the abcess seems to be done!

If we could afford it, we would have Michael do all the rescue horses. It was amazing to have him show me where one hip was lower than another, a wither was higher on one side than the other, watch him make an adjustment of less than 1/4 inch to a hoof and to see that hip or wither level out. AND.....the best part is to watch the eyes of the horses after they have moved off, heads a little higher, moving a little lighter and really interested in stealing some hay from their neighbors instead of standing in a corner not wanting to move.

I could go on and on about what a balanced trim has done for some of these rescues! Reading about it, looking at pictures, etc. etc. is helpful. But "the proof is in the pudding" I guess. That is not to say that we wouldn't put shoes on if they are needed....but the balance and the knowledge of how to do that correctly is the key.

BlackWatchLady

May. 29, 2004, 03:35 PM

I have my horse going barefoot, I made that choice myself with no pushing from anyone, and, I try not to push my choice on others. If a friend asks, I explain it. Nothing pisses me off more then someone telling me my horse needs shoes( ala x farrier) I don't want to piss off my friends by saying your horse should be barefoot!

Character

May. 29, 2004, 04:20 PM

I actually read this whole thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
No, I dont think barefoot is a "cult". It is annoying though to see some people suspend common sense in order to prove a point. And I have seen that with people who barefoot, especially in following a particular model. I lost some friends over it, which is nothing short of annoying. I was the bad guy - I barefoot, but I didnt follow that "particular" model. Sheesh.

I also see it with people who shoe. Suddenly a horse is shoed on all 4's for no other reason than the trainer said they should be. And the owners are confused...but do it without question.

I dont know...I just use my own horse as a guage. ALTHOUGH, I'm a big proponent of barefoot, so would exhaust all those things first. I have friends that shoe...I guess I dont think about it all that much. The only time I think about it is when I see a problem.

Txfarrier11

May. 30, 2004, 08:54 AM

A cult? No, I dont believe so. I feel its more of a "Born Again" religion where if you believe as they do you can be saved but if not, get thee behind me.

BTW, we have 5 horses and only one of them has shoes at the moment.

Horses dont NEED shoes. And they need someone rideing them even less. To get on the back of a fellow traveler on this beautiful pea green planet and cause them pain is a sin of the greatest magnitude, IMO

I'm amazed at how long I resisted joining this thread............

spirithorse

May. 30, 2004, 09:10 AM

When I get upon the back of the horse, I am its dance partner and I cause it no pain.

Txfarrier11

May. 30, 2004, 04:37 PM

By causing pain I was speaking of riding a tender footed horse on rough surfaces. Sorry if I was confusing .

Try this experiment: Take your sweetie to the dance and glide them around the floor barefooted. Examine the look of bliss on their face.

Now take them out on the parking lot and dance them around on the pop tops, gravel and broken beer bottles. Explain to them how it will only hurt for a few months to a year.

See who they go home with........

LMH

May. 30, 2004, 05:01 PM

OH Tx! Now you are sounding as extreme as the barefoot camp! Silly boy!

Besides women have been trained in the art of looking blissful as we cringe around the danceful in 3 inch heels http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Txfarrier11

May. 30, 2004, 07:19 PM

Hummmm, I guess if your date complained about the footing in the parking lot a little slapping around would be in order. Just top make them shut up and keep dancing, ya know? After all, its for their own good

Silk

Jun. 15, 2004, 10:07 AM

Well...here is some evidence of a "cult" following. I have watched an owner use the Strasser method to try to "rehabilitate" her foundered horse. His hooves are pared down to tiny nubs...he is so lame he can barely walk. he is a little better when he has his booties on, but just barely. He is able to limp across the filed after 2 years. For the past two years, he couldnt even do that. it would take her 1 hr to walk him less than 1/4 mile. This walking was part of his "rehabilitation."

Now...bad enough that the horse is in agony, but he is constantly abcessing. She says its because the "natural" healing process is happening.

And, if this isnt bad enough, she and her cult-buddy loudly insist upon every chance they get that the shoes are CRUEL and INHUMANE.

Funny how the three Strasser cult members at my barn are the ones that dont ride their horses. One doesnt ride at all; the other two do walking trail rides on the paths.

Oh, yeah...they are also against bits (use only a bitless bridle because bits are cruel but cutting off their wind is not). Of course, when your horse is so lame it cant walk, there is not much need for control or communication.

they also soak their hooves in water every day. I was always told water dried out hooves.