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dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:13 AM
No names/companies will be mentioned to protect the innocent but that being said I have NO IDEA who is right and who is wrong here but something is very wrong.....
What do you COTHers think about this?
I myself am shocked!
Lets see how easy this is to explain with out ID'ing those involved....

Bought a saddle for my daughter on ebay.
Happy with what I believed is a good purchase.
Saddle payment clears and seller is paid,
saddle is shipped my direction via UPS this Monday to arrive today.
Get home from work yesterday and check emails.
First.....message from an <un-named saddle maker> company....
alleges that they own this saddle and I need to send it to them immed and then demand a refund from the person I bought it from.....
second.....I get an email from the person I bought it from saying they got a message from the
<un-named saddle maker> saying almost the same thing that they own the saddle, it was a "loaner" to a sponsored rider and was still owned by
<un-named saddle maker> and this sponsored rider had no right in the first place to sell or trade it.
Seller I bought it from said that they obtained it from yet another <un-named saddle maker> and that <un-named saddle maker> had taken it in as a trade and then purchased by this person who then sold it to me.
Sellet to me says I need to send it back to them and they will refund my money, then that person, seller to me, will have to send it back to the saddle company she bought it from and get the money back that was paid for it and then that saddle company will have to duke it out with this un-mamed professional rider.
What in the H#!! is going on here?????
Saddle is due to be deliverd to me TODAY and I do not know if I should just keep it or refuse delivery of it or what the H#!! I need to do!!!! The Saddle company that says they own it has not yet produced anything that verifies that they indeed own this saddle and that is was sold fraudulently.
Who owns this saddle? Me?, Who?
Does this make any sense to anyone? It really has me comfused.....

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:17 AM
This is the message I got from the
<un named saddle company>
___________________
hi,
I'm sorry that I'm coming with such bad news but that saddle is serial #removed> and you should ship it to us ASAP and request an immediate refund from the seller.
This saddle was left with a sponsored rider as "to remain property of <removed>". There is a contract and all the paperwok proving that this saddle belongs to <removed>. Nobody else than <removed> was authorized to sell it and this seller is not affiliated with us.
We would appreciate your help in getting this matter resolved. Sorry you are finding yourself in the middle, but this saddle belongs to us.
Please put us in contact with the seller if you don't want to be dealing with that.
You definitely shouldn't be keeping this saddle.
Thanks,

<name removed>

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:25 AM
Hi <my name removed>,
I just got a call from <un named saddle maker> is telling me that this saddle belongs to them?? Apparently they let a rider/trainer take the saddle and use it to ride but that person was not to sell it and it looks like that is what they did. I got the saddle from a local saddle company and had contacted them to see what rider they bought it from.

I am very sorry about this but I would have no way of ever knowing that. I believe the saddle will arrive in
<un named state> tomorrow but I think I am going to need to have you send it back to me. i will have to refund your $$ and then I will need to send it to who I bought it from to get my $$ back and then they will need to work it out with <un named saddle maker>

Again,I am very sorry. I sell lots of saddles and have a great honest reputation so I am very frustrated by all of this Craziness. It looks like <un named saddle maker> will need to make it more clear when they lend out saddles that the Riders/Trainers do not getto keep them as thier own.

Please reply back so I know you got this.

Thank
<un named seller to me>

chaserider
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:26 AM
Maybe I'm missing something in your post, but how in the world would the saddle company gain access to your email address?

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:29 AM
Hi, yes I do have proof from <un named saddle maker> that it belongs to them. I contacted my saddle company and they are going to take it back from me and work with <un named saddle maker> directly ( just like I thought)

Please leave a not on the door to leave the info notice but to return package to UPS warehouse. Just shoot me an email later today when you get the info notice because I will call UPS to do redeliver to me. Once I know it is enroute I will refund the $$ you gave. I will not make you wait till it arrives back to me :)

I will do an ebay ( cancel transaction right now)

Thanks

GoForAGallop
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:31 AM
Eh, just send it back/refuse notice. No matter who is right, it's a giant mess and one that you can easily get out of by sending the saddle back to the person you bought it from. Stinks to lose out on a nice saddle, but there are plenty of others that don't come with so much "baggage"!

nlk
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:32 AM
It sounds like you're getting ripped off. I would do a few things.

First I would contact the saddle company VIA their store website NOT through the e-mail. I would then demand that they produce info that it is in fact owned by them.

When the saddle gets there check to see if the serial number is in fact removed. If it is then I would probably send it back. These people are likely in Cahoots together, how else did the saddle company get your e-mail? and why would the seller give out your e-mail?

BEFORE I send it back though I would DEMAND a refund of my money. Before that saddle even thinks of going to the mail I would want that money in my bank clear and free, what's to insure other wise that the seller returns your money?

Then I would write a bad review to e-bay that the person was a fraud. EVEN if the seller was in fact a good person in the middle they should have check for something as simple as a removed serial number. Especially considering it sounds like this person does this selling saddles from tack store thing frequently.

Canaqua
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:32 AM
Maybe I'm missing something in your post, but how in the world would the saddle company gain access to your email address?

THAT! And, that email from the saddle maker really didn't sound very professional, which makes me suspicious.

I would not even CONSIDER refusing delivery or sending that saddle anywhere until you have the money in your hand. Might be a scam, might not be, but you are not the one who screwed up here, so you should be made whole FIRST, before anyone else gets what they want.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:33 AM
This is the wildest thing ever! I spoke with the person on the phone who I bought it from and she sounded very sincere but the whole thing was/is so very bizarre!!!
In my heart I believe that the person who sold it to me had NO IDEA what the history of this saddle was and thought it was a legit sale.
I am going to do the right thing, i hope, and send it back right away but not accepting the delivery and pray I do get my money back.
MORAL TO THIS STORY...........
ALWAYS, before buying a saddle, run the serial numbers by the manufacturer to make sure of the history of the Saddle!!!
I will let everyone know know if all works out as hoped for.
Un freaking believable isn't it!

Edited part....
I will call or email the saddle maker first though....good ideas people! I think that bottom line, the sponsored rider is the one that is the schmuck!!!!!!!!!!

TarheelJD
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:35 AM
First, the saddle company's statement that they have a contract and paperwork proving the saddle belongs to the company wouldn't be enough evidence for me that this is indeed the case. Contracts may have more than one interpretation, and of course they will interpret it in the manner most favorable to them. Interesting that they did not attach a PDF of the alleged contract/paperwork proving their ownership to the email they sent you.

It sounds like the party who sold it to you is trying to do right by you -- giving you your money back, and then pursuing getting their money back from the party they purchased it from. But who knows whether they are being honest about their intentions.

Have you contacted eBay to see what their policies are in situations such as this?

Reagan
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:35 AM
I would request proof before I did anything. Have them supply you with some sort of contract or documentation that shows THIS saddle, with the correct serial number was really on loan to the professional they say it was. Their e-mail doesn't sound very professional. I would make sure that they are legitimate before doing anything. Maybe try calling the company directly, not through whoever contacted you, and see if you can get more information on the saddle.

Or, get a refund and send it back to the seller and let them take on the headache. You can always find another saddle!

BeaSting
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:35 AM
It's been a while since I've dealt with ebay, but I believe that one can access a buyer's e-mail/contact info in cases of fraud or theft.

nlk
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:36 AM
Hi, yes I do have proof from <un named saddle maker> that it belongs to them. I contacted my saddle company and they are going to take it back from me and work with <un named saddle maker> directly ( just like I thought)

Please leave a not on the door to leave the info notice but to return package to UPS warehouse. Just shoot me an email later today when you get the info notice because I will call UPS to do redeliver to me. Once I know it is enroute I will refund the $$ you gave. I will not make you wait till it arrives back to me :)

I will do an ebay ( cancel transaction right now)

Thanks

SCAM!!!! She contacted them? and they told her that but she offers you no other information other then her word? Then you should just refuse it and leave a note that you will not except it? I DON'T THINK SO!!!! Again contact the saddle company DIRECTLY yourself and get your money back first!!!!!

Canaqua
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:43 AM
Yes, please don't do what they are asking you to! The seller might sound very sincere on the phone (most scammers and manipulators do!), but you have no hard proof that anything they say is true. Contact saddle company directly, yourself, at their published number. If this turns out to be true, you can then tell the seller that you'll put the saddle in the mail to them as soon as you have the money for what you paid for the saddle PLUS shipping costs.

Could be this is all true, but better safe than sorry, seriously. Don't make the mistake of being too "nice" at your own expense.

magnolia73
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:45 AM
SCAM

I would take the saddle and only return it when you have your refund in your hands. I would also want to see the contracts etc. that they claim they have- all very easy to scan and email in this day and age.

SCAM

I would wonder how the saddle maker got your email address.

Let the seller trust you to return the saddle, not the other way around.

FineAlready
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:46 AM
This has scam written all over it if you ask me.

And yes, how did the saddle company get your e-mail address? I suspect seller and "saddle company" may be one and the same.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:48 AM
I would definitely call saddle maker yourself and verify all of this before just handing it back to UPS. Once you do that you have zero leverage to ensure you get your money back.

Also why should saddle go back to the seller? Seller has your money. If anything I would think the saddle would be going back to saddle maker if this whole thing was legit.

redlight
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:51 AM
I don't get it. How did the saddle manufacturer find out you had their saddle, especially since you bought it off ebay? I'd want proof from the manufacturer that this is indeed the case before I'd ship it back. You already paid, and while I think it's great to be honorable by shipping the saddle back before being refunded, you have no guarantee that you will be refunded. If you paid by paypal you should definitely contact them to see what your rights are.

DiablosHalo
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:51 AM
I would be very very suspicious of this whole saga. Saddle maker/dealers do not write such unprofessional emails.

alliekat
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:52 AM
I would request a copy of a police report stating that the saddle was truly stolen, or better yet the county in which a PR was filed. It sounds very fishy to me and without a PR proving it was stolen I would not be sending it back. I definitely wouldn't return a thing without my paypal account being credited FIRST. Good luck I am sure you are frustrated and your daughter disappointed.

Prime Time Rider
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:00 AM
First, the burden of proof is on the saddle maker, not you, the innocent third party purchaser. You purchased a saddle in good faith from someone on eBay. If, in fact, the saddle was not sold legitimately to the party you purchased it from, that's between the seller and the saddle maker, not you. I would contact Ebay regarding the seller (especially since this appears to be someone who has a business selling used saddles). I would also examine the saddle in question when it is delivered to check the serial number. Also, the person who committed the fraud wasn't you or the eBay seller (assuming their story is legitimate), it is the person who received the loaner saddle from the saddle maker. If the saddle maker has a contract with the professional who allegedly sold the saddle, then it's up to the saddle maker to go after the professional who violated the loaner contract. You have no contractual obligation to the saddle maker! Any legitimate company would pursue collections against the professional who violated the loaner contract, not an innocent third party who purchased the merchandise through eBay. This sounds like a scam to me. Under NO circumstances would I return the saddle to the seller without first receiving a refund.

Chaila
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:04 AM
Honestly, this is between the rider and the saddle maker, not you and the seller.

I'd call the saddle maker directly and tell them to arranged to get compensation with the rider they gave it to. This is their quibble with her. She can't produce the saddle, so she must compensate them for it. She broke the contract with them by selling their saddle. So she's got to deal with it.

Accept delivery and tell the saddle maker that this is between them and the rider.

Enjoy your saddle.

Ajierene
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:14 AM
This sounds like a scam. If you actually get the saddle, do not return it, keep it. Contact the saddle maker and find out if they actually did send you the e-mail because it does not sound professional.

Hpilot
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:16 AM
I agree. Sounds like a Scam to me. How long was it on ebay? How did the saddle maker find out you had purchased the saddle in such a short time? If they were tracking this saddle all along, they would have put a stop to the ebay listing from the person who sold it to you. Something just isn't right, here.

Jo
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:17 AM
I would under no circumstances send the saddle back without a refund in hand. What's to stop the seller a.k.a. the saddle company ;) from keeping your money AND the saddle?

In fact - I'm curious to see if this saddle ever really shows up!

Sonoma City
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:18 AM
I completely agree with the other posters. No reputable saddle company would go after an ebay buyer for something like this. It's a very odd chain of events that said saddle company would even be able to trace this saddle to an ebay sale then contact you. I honestly would not be surprised if the saddle didn't show up today. I would wait for the whole thing to pan out before you do anything with the saddle (if you do in fact get it). They can wait a few more days to work out the kinks of what the heck is going on and get this precious saddle back. If it is legit, it may end up working out that they let you keep the saddle anyway.

Madaketmomma
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:18 AM
A possible other side:

A reputable saddle company will check Ebay constantly for their saddles to show up to check serial numbers against a list that they have of stolen saddles (including the saddles that they lend out). When they see one pop up they then email the people involved-WHICH IS EASY TO DO THROUGH EBAY-it doesn't man that they have her email address. You just hit send this person an email.

I may be wrong, but everyone is so quick to scream scam.

FineAlready
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:19 AM
Saddle maker/dealers do not write such unprofessional emails.

Ha ha, well, unfortunately, that's not entirely true in my experience. However, I do think this is a scam and I do agree with you that that e-mail has some please-wire-money-to-Nigeria qualities to it.

ETA: I'm also guessing, as are others, that this saddle will not show up today. Do you have a tracking number? I'm envisioning something like "Good news! I was able to stop the shipment in transit and get it re-routed back to me. I'll reverse the E-Bay transaction right away." Incidentally, you CAN stop FedEx shipments in transit. Don't tell the seller this, though!

danceronice
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:20 AM
It sounds like you're getting ripped off. I would do a few things.

First I would contact the saddle company VIA their store website NOT through the e-mail. I would then demand that they produce info that it is in fact owned by them.

When the saddle gets there check to see if the serial number is in fact removed. If it is then I would probably send it back. These people are likely in Cahoots together, how else did the saddle company get your e-mail? and why would the seller give out your e-mail?

BEFORE I send it back though I would DEMAND a refund of my money. Before that saddle even thinks of going to the mail I would want that money in my bank clear and free, what's to insure other wise that the seller returns your money?

Then I would write a bad review to e-bay that the person was a fraud. EVEN if the seller was in fact a good person in the middle they should have check for something as simple as a removed serial number. Especially considering it sounds like this person does this selling saddles from tack store thing frequently.

Before you even write feedback IMMEDIATELY open an eBay complaint. That locks up the seller's ability to do anything about the transaction (but if they are legit, will force them to do a refund through Paypal, plus bonus to them will get their seller fee refunded from eBay.) Do not send ANYTHING until you get your money back. (Normally I side with the seller since as far as I'm concerned, you buy it off an auction, you own it no matter what and if it doesn't work, tough, but this isn't you with buyer's remorse trying to scam them, it's quite possibly them trying to scam you.)

I second calling the COMPANY itself, not using their e-mail contact. Tell then you would need proof (hard copies of police reports and their contract with the rider who allegedly stole it from them) and that you aren't returning anything to anyone until you get your money back OR until you see proof that you should hand it over TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO WHOM THE THEFT WAS REPORTED.

If it is in fact stolen property, you can't buy it (you can't transfer title of something that legally belongs to something else.) However, you don't have to just hand it over to anyone who comes along the pike saying it's theirs. If it's really stolen, they can involve law enforcement and you can deal with them, not with the saddlemaker who allegedly still owns it.

alibi_18
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:31 AM
Scam.
I bet there is no saddle in this UPS package...
and this is why they want you to refuse it quickly!

I would go and get the package and check the saddle (if there is one) to make sure it is the good one. Check the serial number and call the saddle company.

Then proceed accordingly. If ever there is a saddle and you want to send it back, be sure to be paid before shipping anything.

And really, why would a saddle company really care that much for a used saddle??? As I understand it shouldn't have been sold or trade but now...what would they really do with a maybe 2-3k used saddle? Its not like if it was a stolen car...

You could maybe ask the saddle company to buy the saddle from them? ( the one who sold you the saddle could then send the money to the saddle company!!! LoL making this even more complicated!!!!)

judybigredpony
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:33 AM
Seriously KEEP THE SADDLE...and you call the Saddle Maker if you are concerned, you look up and get a corporate telephone #.....

The owence to make restitution would be on the person who sold the saddle 1st...not the trail of in between cut-outs.

This screams scam and I wonder if you will even see the real saddle in a box on your doorstep...

The Saddle Company should only be concerned about the money not a saddle they have 100's of.

Also contact E-Bay immediately to open an investigation and lastly always pay w/ PAYPAL.....

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:33 AM
Another thing that makes me suspicious is that the seller told you to refuse it and have it sent back to the UPS warehouse and notify them and then they will get it sent back to them. Seller could call UPS themselves and ask for a stop shipment. For some reason they aren't doing that so that would lead me to believe that they want it on record you refused the saddle for some reason. (not sure why because you have email proof they asked you to do this) However once you refuse that shipment you have nothing. You can't even verify what is in the box without accepting the shipment.

If I were you I would accept the shipment (if in fact it actually gets to you today) and then call saddle maker and go from there. I do think that the saddle maker should be going after the person who sold it (the person they loaned it to) not you. If in fact that is what is really going on. Also definitely do the Ebay complaint.

Let us know how it works out!

Limerick
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:37 AM
This is screaming SCAM to me. I've sold two saddles on ebay and bought two. I've never seen the serial numbers listed on any saddles on ebay so I don't see how the "saddle company" could ascertain that it is indeed the saddle stolen from them.

Please keep us updated!! And make copies and document everything related to this transaction.

Fingers crossed that it all works out for you and your daughter.

Mayaty02
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:37 AM
I'm going to agree with those who say ACCEPT the saddle, if it in fact shows up. I would refuse to send it ANYWHERE, until I have my money back in hand. Also agree, file an ebay complaint, immediately. I tend to agree that the saddle makers issue is with the rider they gave the saddle to, not you, but I'd need an attorney's opinion on that.

Lucassb
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:37 AM
Honestly, this is between the rider and the saddle maker, not you and the seller.

I'd call the saddle maker directly and tell them to arranged to get compensation with the rider they gave it to. This is their quibble with her. She can't produce the saddle, so she must compensate them for it. She broke the contract with them by selling their saddle. So she's got to deal with it.

Accept delivery and tell the saddle maker that this is between them and the rider.

Enjoy your saddle.

This.

The saddle maker doesn't want the saddle back, after all - they just want the VALUE of the saddle. Your seller may have to write them a check for more than you paid on ebay "to make things right" with them - assuming that it WAS an honest mistake and not a scam - which I would not assume.

Either way I would keep the saddle and tell the seller it is their mistake and thus their problem to fix.

Enjoy your new saddle, and make sure you keep all the documentation on the ebay transaction in a safe place, just in case you need to prove you bought it legitimately.

meupatdoes
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:44 AM
First of all, this is such a freakin' scam.

Honestly, I think I am going to start tracking valuable ebay auctions and then somehow emailing the end purchaser telling them, actually, that's MY item, you just send it to me and get your money back from the seller.

Oh, and for proof, let me just photoshop up a little Saddle-Use Contract with the proper serial number and a CWD/Antares/Debvoucoux logo on the letter head and say, "See? I originally had a sponsorship arrangement with Greg Best with this saddle. He was never supposed to sell it!"

I mean, PUH-LEZE.

Secondly, if this were a law school hypothetical about stolen art, your defense would be "I am a bonafide purchaser who purchased in good faith and for consideration. Go to court and see if you can get a judge to come tell me y'all ain't $#it out of luck. When that fails, take it up with whatever rider you claim wasn't supposed to sell your saddle. Because that is the person you need to be dealing with. Sayonara!"


And PS, just for emphasis, over my dead body would that saddle go anywhere other than my hot little hands unless I had the money back in my bank account with written confirmation from the bank that it had cleared and they would honor the funds.

TheBarnRules
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:45 AM
Before you even write feedback IMMEDIATELY open an eBay complaint. That locks up the seller's ability to do anything about the transaction (but if they are legit, will force them to do a refund through Paypal, plus bonus to them will get their seller fee refunded from eBay.) Do not send ANYTHING until you get your money back.

I second calling the COMPANY itself, not using their e-mail contact. Tell then you would need proof (hard copies of police reports and their contract with the rider who allegedly stole it from them) and that you aren't returning anything to anyone until you get your money back OR until you see proof that you should hand it over TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO WHOM THE THEFT WAS REPORTED.

If it is in fact stolen property, you can't buy it (you can't transfer title of something that legally belongs to something else.) However, you don't have to just hand it over to anyone who comes along the pike saying it's theirs. If it's really stolen, they can involve law enforcement and you can deal with them, not with the saddlemaker who allegedly still owns it.

This.

People who are good at scams sound VERY sincere - how else would they be good at scams? Why do you think scams are so successful?

Open the complaint with eBay, and hold on to the saddle (if there even is one). I hope you paid with a credit card (not a debit card). Notify your credit card company that the charge may be a scam.

Good luck.

Chaila
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:52 AM
Yeah.. the rider needs to compensate the company for the saddle as per her contract. This has nothing to do with you. If she stole it, then it's a police matter.

Your conversation will go something like this:

"I need to speak to the president of the company." Once she's on phone.. "X rep is sending me e-mails that X rider breached a contract with you by selling a saddle she contractually wasn't supposed to. Please arrange appropriate compensation with her or turn the matter over to the local police and stop your unprofessional harassment of me."

Beethoven
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:52 AM
Yes, I agree with everyone else!! SCAM!

Wonder whats really in the box?

selah
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:55 AM
SCAM!


PLUS...if they send you a check as reimbursement...and it is bogus, and you attempt to cash it...according to several sources on the 'net:

"If you receive an email or letter in the post / regular mail saying you won a lottery and they send you a check? Or you sold something on Ebay and the buyer paid with a check? Or you took out a loan from a distant or online bank and they sent you a check? You can just take the check to your bank and cash it right?

WRONG! And what is worse, if you cash it, in most states in the US, you may be guilty of passing a counterfeit check, money laundering or worse. Clark Howard did a piece on his radio show about a man in California who was arrested for cashing a bogus check. In other words, by merely attempting to cash the check, you could go to federal prison!"
http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/checkcashingscams.php

horsegal301
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:55 AM
SCAMSCAMSCAM

I wouldn't even refuse the package, who knows if there's anything IN it. As an avid eBay who has bought and sold saddles before, If I was asked to return it, I would ask for my money back first and have it CONFIRMED in the bank and wait a week before sending the saddle anywhere.

Was this email from a reputable saddle maker official email? Anyone can make up a fake email and pretend to be someone else, especially when that email was not professional sounding at all. Was the serial number listed in the eBay auction, how would they even know what it was? They would've had to make an eBay account to access your email, and even then, your email wouldn't be revealed unless you allowed it to by communication with the user (I believe there's a box that allows your email to be viewed by the person you're communicating with).

Keep the saddle IF it comes at all. If you get a phone call from the saddle company, then deal with them, this has nothing to do with you as a third-party buyer, considering you went through the agreements and deals of eBay, your purchase was legit. This is now between the seller and saddle company.

I WOULD submit complaint to eBay for fraud. Tell them EXACTLY what is going on how they want you to immediately refuse the package even if you've already paid. Make sure they cannot do this again and report them as well as PayPal, if that's the company you paid with.

hundredacres
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:55 AM
Good Gawd...this is one of the weirdest scams I've heard of ...and I work at a bank and see them all of the time. It almost sounds sellers remorse and so she/he came up with this crackpot story simply to get the saddle back. Bizarre. If it's the saddle you want, keep it and report the seller to ebay.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:58 AM
I sure hope the OP is reading these posts!

meupatdoes
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:00 AM
I'm not following the leap that everyone is making that there is not going to be a saddle in the box.

If the person the OP bought from wanted to put up a picture of someone else's saddle that they got off the web and "sell" that, then that is easy enough to do without then getting a third party involved pretending to be a saddle company. There are plenty of Butets for sale for $1,500 sent via Western Union -once your money hits they disappear, not send you further emails about riders and sellers etc.

I think the scammer here is a third party who saw a valuable auction go up on ebay and is now impersonating a saddle company.

Both the OP and the ebay seller should tell this party to go take a hike.

selah
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:09 AM
I think the scammer here is a third party who saw a valuable auction go up on ebay and is now impersonating a saddle company.

Both the OP and the ebay seller should tell this party to go take a hike.

From OP's original post:
"Sellet to me says I need to send it back to them and they will refund my money, then that person, seller to me, will have to send it back to the saddle company she bought it from and get the money back that was paid for it and then that saddle company will have to duke it out with this un-mamed professional rider."

This says to me that the "seller" is part of the scam...

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:24 AM
I sure hope the OP is reading these posts!

I am I am! I just am not sure what to do! I now hove copies of the agreement from the saddle maker and the rider they sponsored with the serial number of the saddle on it and it clearly states that the saddle is to remain the property of the saddle company and is being loaned to a sponsored rider.
This rider then traded the saddle into another high end saddle company for a new saddle, the other high end saddle company then sold this saddle to the person that listed it on ebay and that is who I bought it from. As far as how the company found me as the end buyer, they easily did that and the saddle serial number is clearly visible on posted pictures in the add.
I really do believe that the seller that sold it to me was un aware of this whole mess and I do trust that she will reimburse me. I paid through Paypal with an AmEx and have reported to both this issue. I have saved all copies of emails as proof that I am being promised a refund.
I will keep everyone posted.
What I would LOVE to do is out the rider who is the guilty party in the first place AND the saddle company that took this saddle in on trade for a new one knowing that this rider was being sponsored by another saddle company! What a bunch of dip shits! Ane we wonder why our sport gets a bad wrap and no one can trust anyone!!!!!
Everyone please pray that I do now get screwed!

trubandloki
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:24 AM
I would definitely call saddle maker yourself and verify all of this before just handing it back to UPS. Once you do that you have zero leverage to ensure you get your money back.

I agree. Look their number up on their web site or something. Call and see if this is at all true.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:29 AM
I agree. Look their number up on their web site or something. Call and see if this is at all true.

The only number that comes up is connected with the person that says the saddle belongs to them This is the USA contact for this saddle maker I think. I do not want to list the company because I do not know if that is appropriate or not.

Chaila
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:31 AM
Then say, "I'm sorry you're just going to have to sue Cranky Von Antsy Pants (My name for the rider) for the value of the saddle."

hntrjmprpro45
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:34 AM
I am I am! I just am not sure what to do! I now hove copies of the agreement from the saddle maker and the rider they sponsored with the serial number of the saddle on it and it clearly states that the saddle is to remain the property of the saddle company and is being loaned to a sponsored rider.
This rider then traded the saddle into another high end saddle company for a new saddle, the other high end saddle company then sold this saddle to the person that listed it on ebay and that is who I bought it from. As far as how the company found me as the end buyer, they easily did that and the saddle serial number is clearly visible on posted pictures in the add.
I really do believe that the seller that sold it to me was un aware of this whole mess and I do trust that she will reimburse me. I paid through Paypal with an AmEx and have reported to both this issue. I have saved all copies of emails as proof that I am being promised a refund.
I will keep everyone posted.
What I would LOVE to do is out the rider who is the guilty party in the first place AND the saddle company that took this saddle in on trade for a new one knowing that this rider was being sponsored by another saddle company! What a bunch of dip shits! Ane we wonder why our sport gets a bad wrap and no one can trust anyone!!!!!
Everyone please pray that I do now get screwed!

Don't out anyone, especially if you aren't sure if it is legit or if it is a scam. It's quite possible that someone randomly chose the saddle company and professional to be used in the scam. Of course if everything gets resolved and it was a legitimate situation then do whatever.

Hpilot
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:38 AM
I certainly wouldn't refuse the saddle. I would at least open the box. You are not attempting to steal this saddle. Just take your time and get your money back, credited to your AMX ,plus return shipping costs, then send it back. If legit this should not be a problem.

Linny
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:38 AM
A possible other side:

A reputable saddle company will check Ebay constantly for their saddles to show up to check serial numbers against a list that they have of stolen saddles (including the saddles that they lend out). When they see one pop up they then email the people involved-WHICH IS EASY TO DO THROUGH EBAY-it doesn't man that they have her email address. You just hit send this person an email.

I may be wrong, but everyone is so quick to scream scam.

They do and should, but they then must have the seller remove them. It seems like a very strangely worded email for something coming from a big company.
Personally, I wouldn't send back the saddle unless the saddler was willing to send ME the money and then they can go back to trying to re-coup the loss from the seller or the person who stole the saddle. I would also expect something in writing, preferably on legal letterhead, not just "emails" via eBay.
It very well could be a stolen saddle but this seems like a strange way of trying to deal with it. eBay itself has a squad of legal eagles who deal with these issues. I'd much prefer to deal with them, as at least you know who it really is.

meupatdoes
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:50 AM
I am I am! I just am not sure what to do! I now hove copies of the agreement from the saddle maker and the rider they sponsored with the serial number of the saddle on it and it clearly states that the saddle is to remain the property of the saddle company and is being loaned to a sponsored rider.

Give me 20 minutes and I'll put together something just like it.
Hm, write up a couple legalese-sounding paragraphs, take a screen shot of the company logo off the website, cut and paste... voila.



This rider then traded the saddle into another high end saddle company for a new saddle, the other high end saddle company then sold this saddle to the person that listed it on ebay and that is who I bought it from.
Not your problem.



As far as how the company found me as the end buyer, they easily did that and the saddle serial number is clearly visible on posted pictures in the add.
Wow, how convenient.
Allow me to change my standard "saddle use agreement" that I use to scam people to reflect the serial number in your ad.




I really do believe that the seller that sold it to me was un aware of this whole mess and I do trust that she will reimburse me.
I personally believe her too, but no way no how would that saddle leaving my hands until AFTER the money was back in my account.
Really, this isn't your problem or her problem anyway.
Surely SHE paid something for the saddle, is she just supposed to eat that loss and send it back to this alleged saddle company?
You should BOTH tell this emailer to take a hike.



I paid through Paypal with an AmEx and have reported to both this issue. I have saved all copies of emails as proof that I am being promised a refund.
I will keep everyone posted.
What I would LOVE to do is out the rider who is the guilty party in the first place AND the saddle company that took this saddle in on trade for a new one knowing that this rider was being sponsored by another saddle company! What a bunch of dip shits! Ane we wonder why our sport gets a bad wrap and no one can trust anyone!!!!!


Except that anyone can create some official looking letter that they are Devoucoux and they lent a saddle to Aaron Vale if they are trying to get someone to send them a nice Devoucoux for free as a scam.



I do not understand why you and the ebay seller are willing to be so nice about this.
Assuming she is legit, ebay seller legitimately made money on purchasing a saddle honestly and reselling it.
You legitimately purchased a saddle, which obviously you would like to have more than the refund because if you wanted the money more than the saddle you would have kept the money and not bought the saddle in the first place.

And now one person sends you an email and (assuming they are even remotely honest) the both of you are willing to just roll over and fix their life for them? It will come at the expense of one of you because if the ebay seller refunds you, who is refunding HER? Why exactly are you both so willing to just say, "OK saddle company, whatever you want. Let us bend over backwards for you to assist you in your endeavor."????

TELL THEM TO TAKE A HIKE.
IT IS THEIR PROBLEM WITH THEIR SPONSORED RIDER.
THE END.

FineAlready
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:57 AM
I certainly wouldn't refuse the saddle. I would at least open the box. You are not attempting to steal this saddle. Just take your time and get your money back, credited to your AMX ,plus return shipping costs, then send it back. If legit this should not be a problem.

Correct. Do not let these people make YOU feel rushed into doing ANYTHING. Snafus like this (if it is a legit snafu) do take time to clean up, and any reputable company knows that.

Stay calm. Take delivery of the saddle if it arrives and check to see if it is the saddle you were expecting. If it is, then I would directly contact the saddle company (via number obtained from a source other than any e-mails sent to you by the "saddle maker"), and confirm that they are indeed attempting to get this saddle back. Depending on what you want to do next (keep vs. send it back and be done with this mess), you may want to get an attorney involved.

rustbreeches
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:02 AM
SCAM! Please do not send the saddle back. If it truly is "stolen" just wait until they send the police out to question you. You bought this in good faith. Stupid question? Have you contacted e-Bay? They have an entire legal team sitting around for stuff like this. If it is a scam they need to know If the real saddlery really wants their saddle back, I'm sure their real lawyer will draft a letter to you for them, and then you can google the lawyer and see if they are legit. Stop having contact with anybody but the e-bay legal team!

QHmom
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:26 AM
Interesting...friends of ours bought a top of the line used saddle from a well known tackstore in our area. Shortly after they purchased the saddle, it was reported stolen and ( going on memory from several yrs back) tracked to the tack store. My friends were then contacted, saddle was returned to saddle company. Because my friends were so kind about it, the company made them a custom saddle for price they paid on used one. This is does happen!

englishcowgirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:30 AM
Well, if you return it make sure you get your money back before you send it anywhere.

I would probably keep it and they could take me to court if they wanted to, you purchased it off a legit site and thats all there is to it. It sounds like the problem here is with the proffessional rider, not with you.

horsegal301
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:32 AM
OP, did saddle company reply from official saddle company email? Call you from one of the customer service/other official phone numbers listed on official saddle company website?

Don't easily bend over backwards for what could screw you over twice as easily. Anyone can pop a logo and some legal terms into a word document and email it to you or attach an "official" logo into a signature of their email.

This really has nothing to do with you... What is the seller going to do? She paid money for the saddle, correct? She's just going to give it back to the saddle company who shall not be named with no money out of it? Sounds skeevy. This is entirely between saddle company and rider who sold the saddle. TBH I don't think you should do anything unless an official person emails you or CALLS you. Do they have an OFFICIAL facebook/twitter? REACH OUT TO THEM if you're so worried.

Do not be so quick to give seller benefit of the doubt. As much as there are good people online, there are people trying to make a quick buck off of someone who isn't careful about what they do online. Please, don't fall into a trap.

Kryswyn
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:41 AM
SCAM SCAM SCAM

DO NOT REFUSE DELIVERY.

Open the box, examine the saddle. Verify that the serial number is the same as the one in the email you received from the saddle company. Contact the Saddle Maker directly if you're unhappy with the saddle and/or clarify the situation. Do NOT speak to the person who signed the email but someone fairly high up in the company.

IF this saddle was given to someone as part of a sponsorship, EITHER that saddle belongs to the rider (because who wants a saddle back after it's been beat to hell) OR the RIDER is guilty of theft for not returning it per contract.

If you just want to be rid of the saddle INSIST ON GETTING YOUR MONEY BACK FIRST (and verify that the funds can't be pulled) before shipping it back. D@mn white of the your seller to say 'once she knows it's on its way, she'll refund the money and not make you wait until she receives it. That is a CLASSIC CON line. And for pity's sake what makes you think this seller is sincere? Just because she SOUNDS SORRY??? That's what con artist are best at being believable!!!

Sit tight. If you like the saddle, and it fits DD and pony, keep it. So far I've not seen anything that indicates your saddle is truly stolen property.

Mayaty02
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:42 AM
Please whatever you do OP, DO NOT SEND THIS SADDLE BACK UNTIL YOU HAVE YOUR MONEY BACK. You are the buyer on the end of a legitimate transaction on ebay. The saddle everyone wants is in YOUR hands. Make them pay you the money back and THEN and only THEN send the saddle back to the seller with delivery confirmation and insurance.

tbsplease
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:42 AM
Even if this is totally legit and not a scam at all, the saddle company is being rather ridiculous and unfair IMO
Because the way I see what they're asking to happen, is for you to send the saddle back, and then the seller would refund you. Then I'm sure the seller would want a refund from the other saddle company where they bought the saddle, and then what's that saddle company supposed to do, try to get a refund for their money from the rider (which I'm guessing wouldn't likely happen)? It's not yours, the ebay seller, or the other saddle sellers fault that this happened, it's between the rider and the original saddle company. and if the saddle company really wants to be reimbursed they need to deal with the rider themselves - this is way too complicated to ask all of you to inconvenience yourselves for their return.

And that's a big IF that it's even legit.

MHM
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:44 AM
Well, if you return it make sure you get your money back before you send it anywhere.

Exactly!

Let us know what happens. This is the kind of thing that keeps me away from EBay.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:44 AM
Even if everything OP has been told is true I agree that sounds very fishy that she is supposed to just refuse saddle and wait for a refund. I would at least accept shipment, confirm that saddle is in there with that serial number than call the saddle company and say okay how do you plan to handle this?

You need to be reimbursed and so does the person you bought it from and what about the saddle company that is was traded into, etc.

I guess we are all jumping to the conclusion it is a scam and perhaps it is not but at the same time seems a pretty big leap of faith to expect you to just refuse the shipment and have no way of knowing when or if you will get your money back.

jay0087
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:49 AM
Like everyone says this sounds like a scam. Just cause someone sounds nice on the phone doesn't mean they can't scam you!!! I sold my horse trailer to a lady that seemed really nice, her check bounced and then she disappeared. Its said it had to happen like that esp. since it was an old trailer and we would have almost given it to her, if she just told the thruth.

If its not a scam as soon as you have your money back the saddle comes back. That is the fair thing to do and unless its a scam everyone will understand. Let the seller know that you will mail it back when you get your money and if they get nasty I would think someting is up.

Like I have told my mom, serial killers are nice at some point, how do you think they get people to go with them?

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:51 AM
The only number that comes up is connected with the person that says the saddle belongs to them This is the USA contact for this saddle maker I think. I do not want to list the company because I do not know if that is appropriate or not.

Okay I missed this. I am confused, are you saying the only phone number you can locate on the web is for the person you are already dealing with? That seems a bit odd. Can you ask them to call you from a company phone with caller ID? Can you contact their overseas location? I find that very strange.:no:

findeight
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:52 AM
I dunno.

But I DO know OP needs to keep the saddle until she gets the money confirmed in her account from seller.

What raises an odor is asking her to immediately send it back and WAIT for a refund-so she has no saddle and no money. And it's odd law enforcement is not involved with stolen property and that an unknown third party-the saddle maker-popped up and demanded she return it to the seller and wait for that seller to refund her????? Why did they not want it or the money back at the saddlery??? There is also that "do it right now, hurry, refuse it and send it right back and then you will get your money" song and dance.

Soooo...OP absolutely MUST tell us if that saddle shows up today. And, please, call the saddlery using a legit # or website, not any info she was given.

Chardavej
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:54 AM
What I want to know is how the saddle company got the name of the BUYER of the saddle? You can click on the ad and send an email to the SELLER (and then it doesn't give you the email address of the seller) but you can NOT get the email address of a BUYER.

Also, if you refuse and it's a scam, they can show they shipped it, you refused it, and then good luck getting your money back.

Did you contact the saddle maker only through the email you received or did you CALL them at the number on their website or email them from their website? Lots of people can make emails look like a legitimate email address, so don't go by that.

STA
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:56 AM
I think alliekat has the closest answer when she writes about a Police Report. The saddle does not sound as if it were a $250.00 saddle. More like $2500.00. You should contact your Police Department and make a report. Follow the officer's instructions on how to handle this situation. I hope you will get your money back. As previously stated in many of the comments there are several "coincidental", "questionable", or just plain strange happenings with this story.

trinityhill
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:57 AM
I'd at least accept the package and hold it for now. Tell the seller to credit you first before you send it back. Once it has cleared you can send it back. After all, the seller got your payment in full before she sent it to you. Why should it not work the same the other way around, especially with so many questions surrounding the situation.

superdon
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:58 AM
Saddle payment clears and seller is paid,
saddle is shipped my direction via UPS this Monday to arrive today.

If seller would not send saddle to you until payment cleared, why does seller expect you to send saddle back before he/she even initiates your refund. You deserve the same protection as seller--don't send saddle back until the refund to you is confirmed and cleared. JMO

KBC
Mar. 30, 2011, 11:58 AM
Subscribing through morbid curiosity..

OP, sorry you found yourself in the middle of this sh1t storm, apart from all the headache, what a disappointment if you find a nice saddle that you think will work, and now you have to start shopping all over again.

Fillabeana
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:04 PM
What if it IS a scam?
What if it isn't a scam?

You need to be responsible for your own due diligence in both cases.

I think you should contact eBay, Paypal, and Amex (to alert them to a possible scam) and the original saddle maker (to alert to a scam as well as verify the stolen saddle story)- all via your own search/means of communicating and NOT by simply returning emails. CALL the number you got off the website! If it is a scam, the scammers might be assuming you won't call. When you do call, if it is the same person as represented in the emails, you can very simply tell them that you are following up loose ends to be sure this whole thing is not a scam. If it isn't a scam, they ought to appreciate that you are doing your best to not be taken in.

In your efforts to contact these three parties, you should be polite and not burn any bridges, but you should not be sending anything anywhere until the saddle is in your possession and the refunded money is cleared to your bank. I would be asking the original saddle maker for a police report that the saddle was, in fact, stolen. Once those two things are done, you will absolutely know where to send the saddle.

I would tell all parties that you are not sure if this is a scam, or a stolen saddle, and you are doing your best to make sure that you either expose it as a scam or do the right thing.

But PLEASE DO involve eBay, Paypal and Amex- they will have fraud experts on staff that can help you to sort this whole thing out properly, scam or no scam.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:04 PM
If you are having trouble finding an alternate contact for the saddle company I would call a tack store that sells that type of saddle and ask if they have a contact number for them. I do notice on the web some of the saddle makers don't provide much direct contact information because they don't do direct sales. However they should have sales reps that deal with saddle shops, etc. Just a suggestion.

red mares
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:13 PM
Food for thought..

I had a fairly legitimate sounding scammer contact me when I was trying to rent out a room. Things weren't too screwy just enough to get you wondering. I waited a couple days to reply after they didn't respond to an ID request. My email was something to the effect of "Sorry for the delay, but this is my house and I would like to be sure you're not some sort of serial rapist or scammer so I do need some ID before we go forward" Never heard from them again. :)

Legitmate people understand if you're wary of scammers.

findeight
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:14 PM
Hmmm...I just thought of something here...

How does that saddle maker know which saddle that is if there is no serial# and they have not physically inspected it???

I mean, I can remove a serial number and claim Joe Big Time rider rode in it to inflate the value-even of there were other markings elsewhere on the saddle, who could tell off a picture????

Between me and others around my barn, we have dealt with the makers of all of these top name brands a top rider would get for endorsement purposes-and they are very GOOD to work with and don't act like this. I am pretty sure they'd just call the cops and e bay if their stolen property turned up on e bay, not search out a 3rd party and contact them.

More I think of it, more scam it seems.

FineAlready
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:16 PM
You know what, OP? Why don't you contact the police where you live right now and describe this crazy situation to them? I'm sure they have seen enough scams that they can tell you how to approach this one. Additionally, it would not hurt to have a police report about this situation, for your own protection down the road.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:18 PM
Hmmm...I just thought of something here...

How does that saddle maker know which saddle that is if there is no serial# and they have not physically inspected it???

I mean, I can remove a serial number and claim Joe Big Time rider rode in it to inflate the value-even of there were other markings elsewhere on the saddle, who could tell off a picture????

Between me and others around my barn, we have dealt with the makers of all of these top name brands a top rider would get for endorsement purposes-and they are very GOOD to work with and don't act like this. I am pretty sure they'd just call the cops and e bay if their stolen property turned up on e bay, not search out a 3rd party and contact them.

More I think of it, more scam it seems.

okay I am confused I thought the serial number was only "removed" from the post not from the saddle correct?

danceronice
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:19 PM
This.

People who are good at scams sound VERY sincere - how else would they be good at scams? Why do you think scams are so successful?

Open the complaint with eBay, and hold on to the saddle (if there even is one). I hope you paid with a credit card (not a debit card). Notify your credit card company that the charge may be a scam.

Good luck.

The nice thing abour eBay/PayPal from a buyer's end (though when it's the case, as it more often is, the buyer is trying to scam the seller, it does put the seller in a bad place-heh, ask me how I know) is eBay WILL get you your money back, credit card or no, and they will go after the seller themselves (which they can do as sellers have to have a particular kind of PayPal account.)

However, they WILL expect the item returned to the seller if you get a refund.

Linny
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:20 PM
It seems to me that the saddler needs to get the money back from the rider to whom that saddle was on loan. I most certainly hope that they have torn up any sponsorship contract with said rider.

I agree with getting in touch with the company and verifying the story. It seems to me that there should be lawyers involved in this situation as it invoves a broken contract (rider failing to ride in sponsor's saddle,) theft (rider trading saddle to another dealer/company) and I will presume that this saddle is quite valuable as most riders who are sponsored and not riding in cheap tack.
I would still not give up the saddle until you are re-paid. It still appears to me that the company needs to chase down the errant rider to be paid for the saddle.

trubandloki
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:25 PM
okay I am confused I thought the serial number was only "removed" from the post not from the saddle correct?


Hmmm...I just thought of something here...

How does that saddle maker know which saddle that is if there is no serial# and they have not physically inspected it???

Read OP's post quoted below.



As far as how the company found me as the end buyer, they easily did that and the saddle serial number is clearly visible on posted pictures in the add.

danceronice
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:28 PM
It seems to me that the saddler needs to get the money back from the rider to whom that saddle was on loan. I most certainly hope that they have torn up any sponsorship contract with said rider.


The one problem with arguing that "it's between the saddlemaker and the sponsored rider" is that if they are treating it as a theft, neither the seller nor the OP has a right to the saddle. Just because a purchase is made in good faith does not mean it can legitimately transfer ownership of stolen property. Even in much more complex situations (like "the Germans conquered Paris and Herman Goering stole my family's art that we left in our house" where said art is now in national collections) the court will generally find that the property belongs to the person from whom it was stolen or their heirs and assigns and they either need it back or need just compensation.

But if the saddler is treating it as a stolen property case, there should be a police report. And only the police should be involved in taking possession of the stolen item. If they can't show they're treating this as theft, it will be much harder for them to claim it should be returned.

smurabito
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:28 PM
This may have already been said, but how do you even know they really sent you this saddle in question?

meupatdoes
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:32 PM
The one problem with arguing that "it's between the saddlemaker and the sponsored rider" is that if they are treating it as a theft, neither the seller nor the OP has a right to the saddle. Just because a purchase is made in good faith does not mean it can legitimately transfer ownership of stolen property. Even in much more complex situations (like "the Germans conquered Paris and Herman Goering stole my family's art that we left in our house" where said art is now in national collections) the court will generally find that the property belongs to the person from whom it was stolen or their heirs and assigns and they either need it back or need just compensation.

This is not necessarily true.

While there are fewer protections for the innocent buyer in common law systems than in civil law systems, it is simply not true that legitimate title can't be transfered.

For example, depending on what state you are in a bona fide purchaser can legitimately gain title to land that the person who sold it to them did not actually own. Whoops!

This is why the whole industry of "Title Insurance" exists.

Kryswyn
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:33 PM
okay I am confused I thought the serial number was only "removed" from the post not from the saddle correct?

You are correct. The actual serial number as well as all names were redacted from the original emails that were posted.

findeight
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:33 PM
OOOPs...sorry guys, read that one wrong. My bad.

I think OP ought to call Amex ASAP. They have fraud experts and are extremely good to deal with-that's why I keep their card for these type things. They will probably tell her to take that saddle and not do anything until this is sorted out.

I remain unconvinced the saddle maker is as they say given the way they are handling this, directly contacting the third party buyer and not the authorites and e bay.

867-5309
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:36 PM
Another vote: do NOT refuse delivery of the saddle. Inspect it, and send it back to the person you paid, AFTER you are refunded. Ebayer didn't ship it to you without payment, why should you do same? Take pix of everything including the condition of the box before you open it.

And yeah, how DID the saddlemaker get your email address?

Somermist
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:38 PM
OOOPs...sorry guys, read that one wrong. My bad.

I think OP ought to call Amex ASAP. They have fraud experts and are extremely good to deal with-that's why I keep their card for these type things. They will probably tell her to take that saddle and not do anything until this is sorted out.

I remain unconvinced the saddle maker is as they say given the way they are handling this, directly contacting the third party buyer and not the authorites and e bay.

I totally agree.:yes:

Kryswyn
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:39 PM
One of the reasons I'm suspecting scam is because the seller is asking OP to REFUSE the UPS shipment, which means she can't open it to even verify what is inside, ie the advertised paid for saddle.

I sincerely hope that the OP didn't put a note on her door before leaving for work today. If she did, I hope UPS is late in delivery. If they have stopped by you may still be able to catch the saddle at the local hub before it's returned. Just tell them it was refused by mistake. They should offer to redeliver.

selah
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:39 PM
OMG...this would be the perfect troll thread! We are all so excited about it (myself included)!
:p:lol::p

trubandloki
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:41 PM
A
And yeah, how DID the saddlemaker get your email address?

Winning bidder on ebay. Pretty easy.

klmck63
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:41 PM
I think it's best to:
1. Accept the saddle, see if it is exactly as advertised.
2. Contact the saddle company directly to see whether they have really been in touch with you or not.

THEN if it is really a stolen saddle:

3. Get your refund from the seller.
4. Confirm with the bank the money's really in there and staying there.
5. Send the saddle back, seller pays for shipping, leave a less than positive review on ebay. Seller should not have suggested you refuse the shipment and probably should have been more careful about what they were selling.

OR if this is a somewhat elaborate scam:

6. Report to ebay and credit card company and possibly police.
7. Keep the saddle, if it's actually what you wanted.

If the saddle never comes in the mail? Report to ebay, police and credit card company. Cross your fingers you can get your money back!

Kryswyn
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:41 PM
OMG...this would be the perfect troll thread! We are all so excited about it (myself included)!
:p:lol::p

I, for one, am loath to leave my laptop for even a minute in case there's an update from the OP!! :D:lol::winkgrin:

Go Fish
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:44 PM
IF this saddle was given to someone as part of a sponsorship, EITHER that saddle belongs to the rider (because who wants a saddle back after it's been beat to hell) OR the RIDER is guilty of theft for not returning it per contract.



This is the part, really, that makes me think it's a scam or something is up. I suppose it happens, but I've never heard of a saddle company giving a saddle to a professional as part of a sponsorship and then expecting to get it back. My trainer is sponsored by a saddle company and he gets to KEEP every saddle they give him. It's part of the deal.

Unfortunately for you, if this does turn out to be true, you are the end user and you will be held responsible for returning the saddle to the saddle company. It will then be your responsibility to go after the second party for a refund, through the courts, if necessary. The courts don't care how many times the stolen property has changed hands and who ends up with empty pockets. Their job is to get the stolen property (or value) back in the hands of the owner and unfortunately, in this case, you will be the one left holding the bag.

I would definately accept delivery of the saddle and go from there. The only party that would be getting the saddle back from me would be the saddle company, after I'd verified that they actually exist, of course. You then may have to pursue the person who sold the saddle to you, or go through Ebay.

After you receive the saddle, call AmEx immediately, if you haven't already done so. They will help you with this. They are amazing at handling fraud cases and will likely dispute the charge with your seller. You won't have to do a thing. That's been my experience, anyway. You have 30 days with AmEx to file a dispute.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:45 PM
I know I wish I had he UPS tracking so I could see when it is delivered LOL.
OP you seem to be really trying to do the "right" thing. Just remember you can go against what you are being asked to do and still do the "right" thing. Sign for the package. Inspect, take pictures. If this is being treated as stolen property then the police who took the police report should be able to contact your local authorities and find out what needs to be done to resolve it.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:46 PM
okay I am confused I thought the serial number was only "removed" from the post not from the saddle correct?

CORRECT. I removed the serial number from the post and all other identifying names such as saddle makers, sellers riders etc so as not to throw anyone under the bus that does not desreve to be squashed by a bus.
I have spoken with Ebay, PayPal and Am Ex, also with the Ebay seller AND with the person that is the USA contact for the saddle maker that owns the saddle,
This is all such a mess and I hope I get my money and I feel I will since it was a sale through Ebay, paid via PayPal on an AmEx card.
Is this all rediculous or what????
Bottom line people I will say again ALWAYS check with a saddle maker before you buy a saddle from anyone, run the serial number by them to make sure about the saddle. I know I will from now on if I ever get the guts up to but a used saddle again! Ugh and I need to buy one.....THIS SUCKS!!!!

AnotherRound
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:49 PM
Interesting. Is the OP here?

I don't buy the explaination of how the saddler found the OP by her saying "they easily did that". Huh? HUH??

The OP does not know that the saddle being sent is the saddle in question so she has to open the package

The OP does not know that the saddler really wants the saddle back because the email was amateurish and she has not received documentation about his saddle which she can absolutely connect to THIS saddle (so far its just people talking)

The OP has no obligation to return the saddle she bought legally

The saddler has no legal right to harrass the OP about returning the saddle - the contract was with the sponsored rider, if that was breached, they need to deal with the sponsored rider

If the saddle has been illegally sold or stolen, the saddler MUST make a police report. For example you are not able to take someone to court to get your dog back from them which they took and won't return unless you are willing to file a stolen dog report. If they won't file the stolen dog report, the court will assume that the dog was not stolen.

The saddler cannot name the OP as stealing their saddle because she didn't steal their saddle.

If the saddler is unwilling to report the saddle as stolen, they can't recover the saddle.

However, so far, there is no proof that

a - the seller sent the OP a saddle
b - the saddle sold to the OP is the stolen saddle
c - the email is legitimate
d - its not a scam
e - etc.

selah
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:51 PM
I, for one, am loath to leave my laptop for even a minute in case there's an update from the OP!! :D:lol::winkgrin:

Yeah!!! Probably a very good thing we're not all in a room together...the excitement would be deafening!!!

(Unless there's a big keg in the corner, large popcorn maker, maybe a few nachos...and a bottle o' something with a worm in it:D)

Kryswyn
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:54 PM
Dodedo, did I miss something? Did you receive the saddle? Did you refuse it? Because if you get it, you should try it on and see if it fits. I would think the saddle company would be willing to sell you the saddle at an extremely attractive price (less even than what you paid the seller) because of the entire mess (and the fact that this allows them not to go after the rider who wrongly sold/traded the saddle). Really you should at least be able to see this saddle and take pictures for reference.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:54 PM
CORRECT. I removed the serial number from the post and all other identifying names such as saddle makers, sellers riders etc so as not to throw anyone under the bus that does not desreve to be squashed by a bus.
I have spoken with Ebay, PayPal and Am Ex, also with the Ebay seller AND with the person that is the USA contact for the saddle maker that owns the saddle,
This is all such a mess and I hope I get my money and I feel I will since it was a sale through Ebay, paid via PayPal on an AmEx card.
Is this all rediculous or what????
Bottom line people I will say again ALWAYS check with a saddle maker before you buy a saddle from anyone, run the serial number by them to make sure about the saddle. I know I will from now on if I ever get the guts up to but a used saddle again! Ugh and I need to buy one.....THIS SUCKS!!!!




Thanks for the update. So are you still planning on refusing the package? What did Ebay/Amex advise? Why not accept and then get your refund and then send back to actual owner?

Seems strange to return to the person who shipped it to you and then they ship it back to actual owner

Did they file a police report? If so did they send you a copy?
You sound like you are doing all the right things, very sorry this happened to you.

867-5309
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:55 PM
Winning bidder on ebay. Pretty easy.

How do you get the email of a winning bidder? I just went to Ebay & tried to do it on a sold/completed auction and it's 'anono-mized' for example the winning bidder's name is shown as W*****7 ?????????

OP please let us know what's in the box! If it ever arrives!

SillyHorse
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:56 PM
CORRECT. I removed the serial number from the post and all other identifying names such as saddle makers, sellers riders etc so as not to throw anyone under the bus that does not desreve to be squashed by a bus.
I have spoken with Ebay, PayPal and Am Ex, also with the Ebay seller AND with the person that is the USA contact for the saddle maker that owns the saddle,
This is all such a mess and I hope I get my money and I feel I will since it was a sale through Ebay, paid via PayPal on an AmEx card.
Is this all rediculous or what????
Bottom line people I will say again ALWAYS check with a saddle maker before you buy a saddle from anyone, run the serial number by them to make sure about the saddle. I know I will from now on if I ever get the guts up to but a used saddle again! Ugh and I need to buy one.....THIS SUCKS!!!!
Please tell us you DID NOT return or refuse delivery on the saddle before getting your money back from the seller! The seller did not ship to you before you paid, and you should not, either. To me, this really stinks of scam.

myalter1
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:56 PM
867-5309 - love you name...lol brought me back to 1984!

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:57 PM
I, for one, am loath to leave my laptop for even a minute in case there's an update from the OP!! :D:lol::winkgrin:

LOL thank you for making me laugh today! I really needed that! XOXO
I PROMISE I will update as to this continuing saga! I am glad I have an office day today so I can follow this thread myself!
Good gosh I didnt know what a can of stink I was opening here but at least it is entertaining some of you COTH'rs
At least I am bring entertainment value to someone!!! :D

Now I REALLY want to open up this package and just touch this saddle as it must be the most famous saddle today! But I was told by everyone, PayPal, Ebay, AmEx, UPS that I am covered if I refuse it and have the tracking number to prove it is sent back to seller.

Now....back to work and waiting anxiuosly for the dreaded doorbell!

caffeinated
Mar. 30, 2011, 12:59 PM
I think it's best to:
1. Accept the saddle, see if it is exactly as advertised.
2. Contact the saddle company directly to see whether they have really been in touch with you or not.

THEN if it is really a stolen saddle:

3. Get your refund from the seller.
4. Confirm with the bank the money's really in there and staying there.
5. Send the saddle back, seller pays for shipping, leave a less than positive review on ebay. Seller should not have suggested you refuse the shipment and probably should have been more careful about what they were selling.

OR if this is a somewhat elaborate scam:

6. Report to ebay and credit card company and possibly police.
7. Keep the saddle, if it's actually what you wanted.

If the saddle never comes in the mail? Report to ebay, police and credit card company. Cross your fingers you can get your money back!

Agreed - though if you do receive the saddle, ID it, confirm with saddle company and get your refund, IMO you'd send the saddle back to the saddler, NOT to the person who sold it to you. :)

mswillie
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:00 PM
This seriously smells like a scam. Like is reeking to high heaven of a scam.

Is there a UPS tracking number? There should be and you should be able to see where the package (if it exists) is.

If a package does show up, receive it, don't refuse it. If you refuse it then a potential scammer has your money & the package.

Open it, carefully documenting what is in the package, take photos if you can. Get some witnesses (think Al Capones vault). Good chance it's a box of rocks. If you don't open it and ship it back you can never prove what was in there. If the seller is the scammer that buys him/her time to disappear.

If the scammer is a third party they get the saddle (provided it really exists).

Did the "saddle company" provide an address to send the saddle to?

How much feedback did the seller have?

Sounds like a two party scam to me. The seller in cahoots with the "saddle company"

No harm will be done if there is a saddle in the box and you take custody of it. You can sort out the details later. I wouldn't let the saddle out of my hot little hands until all the money (including shipping & insurance fees) was safely in my account and verified by the bank.

If by some slim chance this is all legit, law enforcement can handle it.

Also I would not contact the seller again until the package is in your hands.

Good luck.

Mayaty02
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:01 PM
I think if we were all in a room together we would all SHOUT, do NOT refuse the package! but oh well....guess that's what you're going to do. Best of luck

red mares
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:01 PM
LOL thank you for making me laugh today! I really needed that! XOXO
I PROMISE I will update as to this continuing saga! I am glad I have an office day today so I can follow this thread myself!
Good gosh I didnt know what a can of stink I was opening here but at least it is entertaining some of you COTH'rs
At least I am bring entertainment value to someone!!! :D



It sure beats the Project schedule file open in the other window on my screen. Sorry for you hassle, but thanks for the diversion.

selah
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:04 PM
Now I REALLY want to open up this package and just touch this saddle as it must be the most famous saddle today! But I was told by everyone, PayPal, Ebay, AmEx, UPS that I am covered if I refuse it and have the tracking number to prove it is sent back to seller.

Now....back to work and waiting anxiuosly for the dreaded doorbell!

TOUCH it?! Shoot...after all this, I think you should set yr bare arse in it...and have the UPS guy take a pic of you doing it:D

(o lord...I really do need an alter:o)

shawneeAcres
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:07 PM
TOUCH it?! Shoot...after all this, I think you should set yr bare arse in it...and have the UPS guy take a pic of you doing it:D

(o lord...I really do need an alter:o)

I just about spewed my drink all over my screen! LOL

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:09 PM
Wow I am surprised Ebay/Amex and UPS all told you to refuse it. I agree that you will have proof you refused it and proof you should get a refund, but..............................still seems wrong to ship it back to the person you bought it from. On the other hand if you do accept the package and it turns out to be a box of rocks then you really are screwed so I guess you should listen to Ebay/Amex folks as they do know best in these situations.

I am surprised that this happens, that sponsored professionals are expected to return saddles they are given to use. Maybe they aren't normally but maybe the sponsoring saddle company takes offense when the rider trades it in for a higher end saddle?

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:12 PM
OP please let us know what's in the box! If it ever arrives![/QUOTE]

Maybe this is candid camera and I need to open the box to let out the gorgeous, fit, sexy, rich man that will jump out of it!!!!

I just tracked it again through UPS and the status is....

On Vehicle for Delivery Today

Also have an Ebay msg that the seller has cancelled the sales transaction and is granting a full refund contingent on the package being returned to her, so that being said I will refuse the package so that there is documentation that I NEVER had posession of it and it was returned un-opened.
I will have to forgo seeing and feeling the buttery soft leather and the wonderful sweet smell.
Sigh....
Still I promise to update as the story unfolds.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:15 PM
TOUCH it?! Shoot...after all this, I think you should set yr bare arse in it...and have the UPS guy take a pic of you doing it:D

(o lord...I really do need an alter:o)

OMG you are right! Nasty Picture that I can send them AFTER they refund my money!

Monica67
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:15 PM
It's been a while since I've dealt with ebay, but I believe that one can access a buyer's e-mail/contact info in cases of fraud or theft.

THIS IS TRUE. It all sounds very suspicious.

Carolinadreamin'
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:16 PM
Selah, you have got a way with words!

To the OP, please continue to keep us posted and I hope it all works out in the end.

Monica67
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:19 PM
It sure sounds like a total scam. Take delivery, you can always send it back later. First, find out how the actual saddle maker got your information. No way should they have been able to look it up.

Get law enforcement involved! Who cares if the seller refunded your money and cancelled the transaction. That can all get sorted out later.

Fourbeats
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:22 PM
TOUCH it?! Shoot...after all this, I think you should set yr bare arse in it...and have the UPS guy take a pic of you doing it:D

(o lord...I really do need an alter:o)

I'm sitting in my classroom while my students take an exam and trying my best not to laugh out loud. :lol: Getting a few strange looks.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:25 PM
As much as I want to know what is in the box I do think that if Ebay/Amex/Paypal have advised to refuse it then she should. If she accepts, opens and it is a "box of rocks" not good. If she opens it and it is damaged she could have an issue, etc. I hate to say it but if the EBay transaction shows it has been canceled, etc. You probably should just refuse it. One question I have is why didn't seller just request a stop shipment and return via UPS and refund your money right away? Saves driver from even having to stop and it is still obvious that you never had possession of package and are due a refund.

Calvincrowe
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:29 PM
Fourbeats! Me too!! My kids are like "what's so funny?" and there is no way to explain...at all! We are on a half day schedule (conferences) and they are working silently, so my snorts were definitely a disrupter. I am a bad, bad teacher;)

Hpilot
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:30 PM
Geez, can't you at least shake the box????:yes: Inquiring minds what to know.

BLBGP
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:30 PM
Does the saddle maker have a legitmate address or is it xxsaddlemaker@yahoo?

Does the saddle maker have a legitimate phone number (a main line, not whatever has been given to you) that you can call, ask for a supervisor (not the name given to you), and confirm the story?

horsegal301
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:31 PM
FYI


You cannot see a winning bidder's name in the already sold item description unless it is YOUR item that you're selling or YOU are the one who won. It shows you the first and last letter/number and that's it, so I hope you realize what you're dealing with now.

Please, just accept the box. DO NOT REFUSE IT. This person is pulling a fast one on you. Accept the box, see what's inside - If you have to, ask the ups guy to WAIT. Even if she just emailed saying that she wants a refund and started the process, I would BE SURE to check what is inside, that way you can still get her despite all of this happening. It sounds wrong on SO many levels. Unless she saddle maker responded to her directly and she willingly gave them your address, there is no way this is legit saddle company.... and I'll ask again, did the email from a legit company email address? You have no idea how easy it is to fake. I've gotten fake emails from paypal and ebay saying that a transaction has been reversed/made and realized it was fake because it went through my email and not through the ebay or paypal account. Just because they're not asking you to send it to nigeria and want to pay you an extra 100 dollars to ship it there doesn't mean you shouldn't count this out as a scam.


Just don't want you to get fished.

867-5309
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:33 PM
Thank you Horsegal301. So how then, OP did the the saddlemaker get your email?

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:34 PM
Hopefully Ebay's person that advised you took into consideration that the "saddler" emailed you directly. Crossing fingers your money is refunded.

wildlifer
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:38 PM
Just to let you know -- eBay scams can be VERY complex. I had a similar thing happen to me when I bought an external hard drives. I even got intimidating letters sent to my house by some guy claiming to be ex-NYPD, now private detective. However, as soon as I got suspicious and started asking for credentials, everyone clammed up. I threw away all the mail, kept the hard drive, and all is well and the scammers gave up. It amazing the lengths they will go to.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:44 PM
Again I come back to why if this is all legit didn't the Ebay seller just ask UPS to stop shipment and return it to original sender, thus no worry on part of Ebay seller getting the package back? (unless UPS won't do that, I know FedEx will)

I just hope that Ebay, Amex and PayPal all fully understand the situation. On the other hand if this is truly a scam why should we expect there is actually a really nice saddle in the box? It could be anything and by opening it not sure OP is doing herself any favors. UPS guy won't wait and take it back once it is opened. She would have to repack and reship on a new tracking number to return it. And doubt the UPS guy will be her witness that it is a box of rocks or a crappy saddle.

Camstock
Mar. 30, 2011, 01:47 PM
Now I am thinking the whole thread is a trolling mission about a scam.

Celeritas
Mar. 30, 2011, 02:00 PM
Just jumping in to say that I'm SO GLAD I decided to purchase a used saddle directly through the company, rather than through ebay!! I've been looking for one of the french brand saddles for a while and considered bidding on a few, but I got too nervous and decided to go directly through the saddler themselves. I didn't get as good a deal as I maybe could have through an auction (but still fairly priced), but for my piece of mind, I'd say it's worth it after reading this saga!!

MHM
Mar. 30, 2011, 02:09 PM
Now I am thinking the whole thread is a trolling mission about a scam.

Somebody posting to get ideas of how to go about it? :lol:

KBC
Mar. 30, 2011, 02:19 PM
OP was asking 4 days ago if this saddle was a good deal for the buyer??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=170620326116&si=BYVlCwO0nO4vNszUgWaTNuJ0A%252FY%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

I'm just doing the math 2 + 2 = :confused:

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 02:26 PM
Haffy I got curious and saw the same thing. So perhaps she was able to get the saddler at the number on their website and it is legit. I hope so for her sake. (you can find their number) that is a hefty amount of money to lose.

OP hope it all works out, I do not think you are trolling at all.
Did the saddler ever provide a police report?

Hunter Mom
Mar. 30, 2011, 02:37 PM
Fourbeats! Me too!! My kids are like "what's so funny?" and there is no way to explain...at all! We are on a half day schedule (conferences) and they are working silently, so my snorts were definitely a disrupter. I am a bad, bad teacher;)

Mine are doing state assessments! I really should NOT be laughing.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 02:50 PM
Haffy I got curious and saw the same thing. So perhaps she was able to get the saddler at the number on their website and it is legit. I hope so for her sake. (you can find their number) that is a hefty amount of money to lose.

OP hope it all works out, I do not think you are trolling at all.
Did the saddler ever provide a police report?

Nope, not trolling just venting!!
I did not get a P Report from saddler just a request to send them the saddle back to them. It doesnt seem like they have ever reported it missing or maybe they never even knew until it was pointed out that I bought it on Ebay? I do not know.
If I sent the saddle back to them, the original saddler then I would NEVER get my money back so that was a big fat NO!
I did get proof from the Ebay seller that the saddle was given to a rider as a sponsor item and clearly says on the contract that it belongs to Mfr. She herself had to demand this proof from the saddler as well.
This was then given to me because I demanded to see proof from the Ebay seller that all of this was in fact true before I would return anything.
As much as I would LOVE to out this rider so everyone knows this person may be dishonest I will not do that because I do not know what made them trade a saddle in for a new one when they did NOT own the one they traded in in the first place....What is wrong with people????
At this moment I beleive the seller will do right by me and refund me my money as soon as she sees that UPS is transporting it back to her. Then I REALLY hope she is made whole and she can get her money back and then it will be the problem of the saddler that took the saddle in on trade from this rider to work it out.
As I said before I will let everyone know what happens and when I have my money back which I do trust will be soon....
I suppose I will not disclose riders name so I do not "damage" riders reputation.....all righty then.....as my daughter says....what ever!

piccolittle
Mar. 30, 2011, 02:56 PM
Another question, did you have to explain the situation to the seller or did she already know what was going on when you contacted her? Was she contacted by the saddle manufacturer? How fast was she able to get the "contract" to you after you asked?

This all sounds extremely fishy, and working in a legal department I tell you I have seen too many of these successful scams to feel comfortable with the action you have taken.

Good luck, though, and I really hope it works out.

horsegal301
Mar. 30, 2011, 02:57 PM
Starting to think we are getting trolled considering OP has still not disclosed whether these emails from saddlery are coming from official email... not sure why she is ignoring what everyone else is saying either. Well, we tried to help you?!:confused:

Aerial
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:00 PM
I thought you said she had already cancelled the transaction and refunded your money? :confused:

findeight
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:02 PM
It is possible that rider does not even know it's gone and somebody else passed it along to the seller.

Just sayin....some of these people run 2 strings plus some at home plus doing alot of riding they have to fly back and forth to. They have more then one saddle and never promise to use ONLY the endorsed brand provided saddle(s) to show in.

Not in anybody's defense at all here...just saying it's possible somebody figured they'd never notice one missing-and they were right.

danceronice
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:06 PM
I would really, really suggest you open a complaint with eBay directly. Do NOT rely on the seller to refund on their own.

And I would definitely not divulge the rider's name if there is no police report or anything other than the saddlemaker's word to go on. They are not disinterested parties.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:08 PM
I thought you said she had already cancelled the transaction and refunded your money? :confused:

Transaction has been cancelled through Ebay, yes. The $$ is to be refunded back through PayPal,
I have no refund yet but I also have no saddle yet as UPS has not arrived. They usually come late afternoon.

To the fools who think I am trolling, get a life! Watch TV for your excitement. I am not trolling this whole situation IS happening and I am on pins and needles hoping that by doing the right thing I will be rewarded with my money back. The Ebay seller has a good reputation and gtreat feedback so I feel compelled to trust her. She notified me at about the same time as the saddle maker notified me.
Like I said over and over I think the bad egg is the rider from the get go....
Will still keep everyone posted but those of you calling me a troll or otherwise, find something else to read please.
(This is NOT aimed at Aerial either.....just to clarify....)

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:10 PM
It is possible that rider does not even know it's gone and somebody else passed it along to the seller.

Just sayin....some of these people run 2 strings plus some at home plus doing alot of riding they have to fly back and forth to. They have more then one saddle and never promise to use ONLY the endorsed brand provided saddle(s) to show in.

Not in anybody's defense at all here...just saying it's possible somebody figured they'd never notice one missing-and they were right.

Yep. At this point I think anything is possible and that is why I will not divulge names.
This is a mess isnt it!

Aerial
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:10 PM
Ah I see. I'm not much of an ebay-er so that part wasn't really clear to me. Hope everything works out!

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:12 PM
If you look at other posts by the poster I don't think she is trolling. Perhaps with all that is going on she forgot to respond about the email source. I guess I can see her point why she would have to return it to seller to get "her" money back and let them deal with the other parties involved. It does seem crazy to have to send it back to seller then they send to saddler but who knows? The only thing is if they never reported it stolen and there is no police report to me saddler does not really have the right to demand it back.

piccolittle
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:13 PM
Just wanted to point out also that for eBay to pursue the seller or refund you money under Buyer Protection, you have to have proof that you returned the item (in the form of a tracking number and postage receipt). By refusing the delivery you won't be issued a new tracking number for the package and won't have any proof that you didn't just keep the item. I would be very careful here and I would urge you to open the package and get a new tracking number issued. It's worth the shipping expense to protect yourself.

horsegal301
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:26 PM
Just trying to help you out, but you keep forgetting to answer a very important question and it seems like you're disregarding what advice people are giving you. Piccolittle pointed out something very valid. I would keep it, open it up and make sure it's there, and then go to the post office yourself and ship it out with confirmation that YOU sent out yourself so that you can have it on paper that you yourself sent it. I would not send it out until your money is back in your account and confirmed in your account.

Like I said before, people cannot just "find out" your email from a listing, you have to be the winner or the seller of a listing to see who wins, outside viewers of the listing or other bidders cannot see your username, thus have no way to harass/message you if they're unhappy with the outcome.

I have had scams including buying an expensive Nikon Camera and selling a Laptop and have received fake emails from people asking me to send it somewhere else and how they've put money into my bank account and it was never there, they never even paid the invoice. When I bought the Camera, it broke before I was even able to use it, seller communicated at first, and then flat out ignored me, and until I contacted ebay and paypal I was screwed. It's been a while since that incident, but I have found and have friends that have found out the hard way getting scammed because people will go out of their way to screw you over.

Are these official emails from Saddlery? Are they on their letterhead? If this is such a concern, why has the Saddlery not contacted you by phone? Official phone number? Official email address? You're sitting there waiting, so do some detective work if you want something done about this. PayPal and eBay will only do so much. Seller is just making it worse by sending you things which could just be made up.

findeight
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:29 PM
Hypothetical situation here...

VBNJR (very big name Jumper rider) has some horses at WEF and some at Ocala-the saddle in question is at Ocala.

The Ocala horses finish up one Saturday evening, rider drives back to WEF Saturday night. Horses at Ocala-and saddle-ship back to...oh...say New Jersey on Monday. Rider flies to Europe to look at horses Monday and flies back to WEF on Thursday then stays there for 2 more weeks. Then goes to Tampa.

How the heck would they know that saddle never made it home???

They wouldn't. Somebody who works for them might know...and not share.

I know a few VBNJRs, not well but well enough to know they don't get home much but do have alot of saddles, some freebies for endorsements, some personal and some client saddles for thier horses in various places. They would never miss one if they were not using it at that time.

Really don't think a top caliber rider would need to swap an endorsement saddle with a tack room full of them. But somebody working for them might. Or a casual visitor or a "buyer" trying a horse on a busy afternoon at that Ocala show.

Voldemare
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:36 PM
I had someone claim the saddle I returned was damaged & in several emails described the damage differently. She was nice but dragged her feet on refunding my money then finally said she would. PayPal tried the refund but she had NSF in her account. Luckily I had saved all our email correspondence & had a compelling case why the saddle was returned to her in perfect condition. PayPal refunded my money then took up a claim with her.
Really love PayPal.
Then I bought a saddle at my local tack shop!
Moral, of course, is be very careful when buying on ebay, make sure your paper work is in order, and don't be fooled by someone being nice.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:41 PM
That is why I was told to refuse the package. That way it was never in my posession and I never opened the box....

SidesaddleRider
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:42 PM
OP was asking 4 days ago if this saddle was a good deal for the buyer??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=170620326116&si=BYVlCwO0nO4vNszUgWaTNuJ0A%252FY%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

I'm just doing the math 2 + 2 = :confused:

If this is the particular saddle that is being discussed, I can tell you that the seller is 100% legit. She lives about 30 min away from me, and I have dealt with her several times before on buying/selling saddles. There are no scams on her part in this mess.

Chaila
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:50 PM
If you refuse the package, you have no tracking info. Then the seller can say she never got it back. Then you have no saddle and no money.

Accept shipping of the saddle and get your own tracking number and make the seller pay you for the saddle and shipping.

YOU have done nothing wrong here. You do not need to cooperate or be "nice."

Call CWD or whoever and tell them to request remuneration from the rider for the saddle and ask for a copy of the police report before you ship it to anybody.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:54 PM
If this is the particular saddle that is being discussed, I can tell you that the seller is 100% legit. She lives about 30 min away from me, and I have dealt with her several times before on buying/selling saddles. There are no scams on her part in this mess.

I do think she, like me is totally innocent in all of this.
The whole ordeal has me a bit freaked out but I have spoken with her and I believe she is a reputable seller.
This whole series of events is absurd that it happened and I honestly wish I had not started this thread as it sure stirred up a bucket of stink!
This was I am sure a freakish thing that just so happened to me....sigh....what luck I have.
Bottome line the saddle should never have been traded in to have ended up on the journey that it has taken.
I now find myself jumping out of my skin every time I hear a truck drive up. UPS? UPS?......

hundredacres
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:55 PM
Nope, not trolling just venting!!
I did not get a P Report from saddler just a request to send them the saddle back to them. It doesnt seem like they have ever reported it missing or maybe they never even knew until it was pointed out that I bought it on Ebay? I do not know.
If I sent the saddle back to them, the original saddler then I would NEVER get my money back so that was a big fat NO!
I did get proof from the Ebay seller that the saddle was given to a rider as a sponsor item and clearly says on the contract that it belongs to Mfr. She herself had to demand this proof from the saddler as well.
This was then given to me because I demanded to see proof from the Ebay seller that all of this was in fact true before I would return anything.
As much as I would LOVE to out this rider so everyone knows this person may be dishonest I will not do that because I do not know what made them trade a saddle in for a new one when they did NOT own the one they traded in in the first place....What is wrong with people????
At this moment I beleive the seller will do right by me and refund me my money as soon as she sees that UPS is transporting it back to her. Then I REALLY hope she is made whole and she can get her money back and then it will be the problem of the saddler that took the saddle in on trade from this rider to work it out.
As I said before I will let everyone know what happens and when I have my money back which I do trust will be soon....
I suppose I will not disclose riders name so I do not "damage" riders reputation.....all righty then.....as my daughter says....what ever!

Personally, I think you're nuts to send it back without having a refund first.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 03:58 PM
If you refuse the package, you have no tracking info. Then the seller can say she never got it back. Then you have no saddle and no money.

Accept shipping of the saddle and get your own tracking number and make the seller pay you for the saddle and shipping.

YOU have done nothing wrong here. You do not need to cooperate or be "nice."

Call CWD or whoever and tell them to request remuneration from the rider for the saddle and ask for a copy of the police report before you ship it to anybody.

But I have the tracking number and all emails about this and will be able to track it right back to where it came from.
I was told by Ebay. Paypal and AmEx that this was OK since it will show that I did NOT accept the package.....it will show that it went back to her!

LvdSprtHorse
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:08 PM
Don't count on it. Last time I looked, to be refunded that amount of money in a dispute, you need signature confirmation viewable online. If you merely refuse the package, I doubt seller will have to sign for the package leaving you lacking sufficient proof to make your claim. Cover your bases. Accept the package, send it back usps or UPS with signature confirmation and insurance after the seller has refunded you.

pepperw
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:10 PM
I would NOT send it back or refuse delivery at this point.

alto
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:11 PM
I was told by Ebay. Paypal and AmEx that this was OK since it will show that I did NOT accept the package.....it will show that it went back to her!

Yes, if the saddle "disappears" after you refuse it (as signed & witnessed by the UPS employee - make sure you do get signatures!), it will be an insurance issue between the seller & shipper.

We just all want to know what's in the box :lol:
FWIW I also believe the seller to be reputable.

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:12 PM
I have to agree about refusing it now. At first I thought better if she accepted but now on the advice of EBay/PayPal/Amex she had been told to refuse. I still don't know why seller didn't ask UPS to stop shipment but maybe per EBay etc. best was to do it this way. UPS will have a record of it being refused and a record of the shipper advising them to return it to them. This will all be a matter of record associated with the UPS tracking record that OP has. I have definitely switched my vote from accepting and opening to refuse. If indeed this was scam then accepting doesn't make much sense since it would probably not be a nice saddle inside.

Seems the seller has be vouched for on COTH so that is good news. I still think the saddler was wrong for contacting the OP directly and still wondering how that went down. I also think if they have not reported it stolen they should have just let it go once they found out saddle had already been sold several times and contacted the rider they loaned it to instead.

I agree outing rider bad idea as very possible it was not the rider who actually traded it in as has been posted.

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:12 PM
OP was asking 4 days ago if this saddle was a good deal for the buyer??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=170620326116&si=BYVlCwO0nO4vNszUgWaTNuJ0A%252FY%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

I'm just doing the math 2 + 2 = :confused:


Since we clearly know now that it is CWD why dont you contact Amandine in the office to help get it squared away? im surprised she hasnt jumped on this board to rectify the situation or give OP some other solutions, etc. It isnt the OPs fault that the pro rider did this and if they want their saddle back then i think they need to make OP a new one. I would not be sending this saddle back without some sort of resolution. just my 2 cents. But i am seriously shocked at the whole situation. CWD needed to deal with Pro rider, not the OP. :eek:

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:23 PM
Since we clearly know now that it is CWD why dont you contact Amandine in the office to help get it squared away? im surprised she hasnt jumped on this board to rectify the situation or give OP some other solutions, etc. It isnt the OPs fault that the pro rider did this and if they want their saddle back then i think they need to make OP a new one. I would not be sending this saddle back without some sort of resolution. just my 2 cents. But i am seriously shocked at the whole situation. CWD needed to deal with Pro rider, not the OP. :eek:

I have covered all the bases. I hope,,,,,
Saddler doesnt seem to care that I will have no saddle :-(
They just want it back. I hope they get it back but it will have to go back to seller then back to 2nd saddler before it can even get back to original saddler the 2nd one will need to either get their $$ back from the Pro or their saddle back from the pro. YES this is FUBAR!!!!!
Saddler has said they also believe that the seller will follow through and refund my money. Seems like the Ebay seller is on the up and up!
I should have my money back but I will have no saddle and will be pretty gun shy about trying to find another one. I really wanted this one too! It met all my criteria though it was more expensive than I wanted, I still wanted it for my daughters easter gift.
I too am shocked by the whole situation but think the seller is as well....

BLBGP
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:23 PM
Since we clearly know now that it is CWD why dont you contact Amandine in the office to help get it squared away? im surprised she hasnt jumped on this board to rectify the situation or give OP some other solutions, etc. It isnt the OPs fault that the pro rider did this and if they want their saddle back then i think they need to make OP a new one. I would not be sending this saddle back without some sort of resolution. just my 2 cents. But i am seriously shocked at the whole situation. CWD needed to deal with Pro rider, not the OP. :eek:

That was my thought a few pages back. My questions were:

Does the saddle maker have a legitmate address or is it xxsaddlemaker@yahoo?

Does the saddle maker have a legitimate phone number (a main line, not whatever has been given to you) that you can call, ask for a supervisor (not the name given to you), and confirm the story?

BLBGP
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:24 PM
I have covered all the bases. Saddler doesnt care that I will have no saddle :-(
Saddler has said they also believe that the seller will follow through and refund my money.
I should have my money back but I will have no saddle and will be pretty gun shy about trying to find another one. I really wanted this one too! It met all my criteria though it was more expensive than I wanted, I still wanted it for my daughters easter gift.
I too am shocked by the whole situation but think the seller is as well....

You are a very nice mom to buy your daughter a new saddle for Easter. Sorry it wound up all wonky.

moonriverfarm
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:24 PM
SCAMARAMMA!

Mimi La Rue
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:28 PM
My guess to all this is that the seller wants the saddle back so she can sell it to someone else for more money. I would not be surprised if you see this saddle listed again for sale by the seller. Just my guess.

However if I remember correctly someone from CWD has stated on this board that this seller has sold stolen saddles in the past.

Really though there is NO WAY an outside person besides the seller can get your contact information, so how could you get contacted by the saddle company?

Did the email from CWD have an email with "cwd" in it, like abcd@cwdsellier.com???

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:30 PM
Truly a bummer no saddle but at least hopefully sounds like you will get your money back. You have been most gracious through out this.

Maybe someone on COTH has the saddle you are wanting and will pm you :)
trying to be positive.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:31 PM
You are a very nice mom to buy your daughter a new saddle for Easter. Sorry it wound up all wonky.

Thank you!
I am very sorry this has all happened and even more sorry that my daughter was told about it in the first place but I was so excited I couldn't keep it to myself! It was really hard to tell her and try to explain this mess.
Life lesson learned.....

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:32 PM
I have covered all the bases. I hope,,,,,
Saddler doesnt seem to care that I will have no saddle :-(
They just want it back. I hope they get it back but it will have to go back to seller then back to 2nd saddler before it can even get back to original saddler the 2nd one will need to either get their $$ back from the Pro or their saddle back from the pro. YES this is FUBAR!!!!!
Saddler has said they also believe that the seller will follow through and refund my money. Seems like the Ebay seller is on the up and up!
I should have my money back but I will have no saddle and will be pretty gun shy about trying to find another one. I really wanted this one too! It met all my criteria though it was more expensive than I wanted, I still wanted it for my daughters easter gift.
I too am shocked by the whole situation but think the seller is as well....

WOW. i am truly shocked. they usually care about their reputation and their customer service above all else. I am sorry you are being treated that way. that is just awful. And Amandine IS the office manager. Is she the one that contacted you? her email address would look like this Amandine@CWDsellier.com ?? The ebay seller is not in the wrong. But the pro rider is in the wrong and CWD needs to take that up with him/her and not you. that is not right. I guess after this situation you wont be getting a CWD. Thats too bad all of this happened. I am truly sorry. Just make sure you are dealing with CWD directly and not just some random person. Good luck OP.

Mimi La Rue
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:34 PM
SEE POST #38

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5490390&highlight=scullion66#post5490390

CWD rep states this seller has sold stolen saddles in the past. They didn't care about selling them then and never took down the listings to them.

Mayaty02
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:38 PM
SEE POST #38

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5490390&highlight=scullion66#post5490390

CWD rep states this seller has sold stolen saddles in the past. They didn't care about selling them them and never took down the listings to them.


The plot thickens...

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:40 PM
SEE POST #38

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5490390&highlight=scullion66#post5490390

CWD rep states this seller has sold stolen saddles in the past. They didn't care about selling them them and never took down the listings to them.

Well that is a bummer since someone else vouched for the seller. Hoping this still means that OP will be getting her money. Shame that this happens so frequently. Hard to believe.

MILOUTE55
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:48 PM
OK now this is getting too frustrating and I need to rectify something. I have asked the OP to do it on several occasions through personal messages and she isn't willing to do that so I will.

1/ CWD ("saddle maker" as you all guesses) did not email the OP, CWD didn't even have the OP's email address or know the OP's last name.

2/ OP contacted me (CWD office manager, and long time COTH forum member, now turning into "everybody's personal assistant as far as saddle buying is concerned") through the private messages on this board, requesting more information on this saddle that she has seen listed on ebay

3/ It took me a couple of days to get to her message and look up what she was asking (I give priority to "regular" emails and phone calls and only take care of the COTH messages after the rest is done). By the time I read her message, OP had bought the saddle and it was on its way to her.

4/ I found out the saddle was property of CWD since it was with a sponsored rider with whom we have a contract. So I immediately told the OP that she shouldn't be involved in this fraudulent sale (well you know that since she put my message on here... the "unprofessional" and weird tone comes from the fact that a/ I have a strong French accent; b/ this was a forum message and not an official CWD email, I do make a difference and tend to check spelling and grammar more thoroughly on the latest). I only exchanged COTH messages with the OP so obviously they didn't come from my official email which is amandine@cwdsellier.com

5/ I contacted the ebay seller, that I've known for a long time (small world the world of high end saddles) and explained the situation. I urged her to cancel the sale and refund the OP immediately. She demanded proofs of ownership of the saddle which I happily provided. Ebay seller is a reputable seller and is currently trying to return the saddle and obtain money back from the person she bought it from (one of our competitors). As much as I would have liked for the ebay seller to ship our property back to us, I knew that wasn't going to happen and I understand her point. She does need her money back as well since she had no way of knowing the saddle was ours.

The OP called CWD office and asked to speak with someone in charge (so that was me), to verify the info she had gotten from ebay seller and to make sure it was all backed up by CWD.

This all just happened yesterday. We haven't been able to talk to our sponsored rider yet (left messages) and this is why I'm very frustrated that this story is being displayed with many missing parts.

The OP is getting a refund, I have absolutely no doubt about that. Why the refund wasn't done immediately is something the OP should discuss with the seller directly.
This is absolutely no scam and the OP is not a troll. She is doing the right thing in refusing the package as it will make things faster and will avoid for her to have to pay shipping fees.
Our (former?) sponsored rider might not be aware that the saddle is gone.
Our competitor most probably didn't know that the saddle was our property when they traded it in.

I hope that it answers most questions. I swore I wouldn't get involved but really it got frustrating to read this and not be able to answer. If the story is going to be discussed publicly and names/companies are going to get revealed, then the info must be complete for people to give advice on the situation.

Oh well.... now my lunch break is gone with this story...

Have a good day everyone

Amandine
CWD Office manager

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:51 PM
I spoke with everyone necessary involved in the situation outside of calling the pro rider and getting some choice words off my chest.
I assure everyone I spoke with the Ebay seller on the phone and I also spoke with the correct and proper person from the saddles mfr on the phone.
She contacted me at the same time as the seller did that the saddle belonged to them.
I made a post asking if the saddle was a good purchase because I was so tickled with finding it. It was AFTER I actually committed to buying it that this all went down. The saddler contacted BOTH me and the seller about it.
I am so bummed but that is the way it is.
I hope this doesnt happen to anyone else as it has been a royal PITA and it will not be over until that $$ is safe and back in my acct.....
Maybe I am too trusting IDK but I assure youthat if someone PM's me that they have the perfect saddle for me I will probably tell them to take a hike!

WHERE IN THE H#!! is UPS?????????????

Mayaty02
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:52 PM
well thanks for clearing all that up!

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:52 PM
I just don't understand why CWD is so interested in getting the saddle back. One would think they would simply bill the BNR for it. Unless the thing is plated in gold I don't see why they would go to so much trouble to track down a used saddle.

ETA - I just saw the post from Amandine, and while it explains a lot, I still don't understand why they don't just bill the BNR for the cost of the saddle.

Mimi La Rue
Mar. 30, 2011, 04:59 PM
I just don't understand why the alleged saddle maker is so interested in getting the saddle back. One would think they would simply bill the BNR for it. Unless the thing is plated in gold I don't see why they would go to so much trouble to track down a used saddle.

Well they probably loaned this saddle out to the pro. The pro got rid of the saddle. CWD is out of money on this saddle so they want the saddle back. Really it is still their saddle.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:00 PM
SEE POST #38

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5490390&highlight=scullion66#post5490390

CWD rep states this seller has sold stolen saddles in the past. They didn't care about selling them then and never took down the listings to them.

That is uncalled for! I do not think this seller would knowingly do this and that is coming from someone who has JUST bought a saddle from her. She is horrified with the situation and says she will do right by me. Now if I do not get my money back it will be a different story and I will be right back here telling you all to beware but at this point I think she is just as innocent as I am in this whole mess!.
I know now how easy it is to end up just like this and I did ask her about this situation that is alleged about selling stolen saddles in the past It is not a common thing to call and check about a saddles history so it can happen.
No reason to thrash her reputation over this (my) incident as she seems on the up and up.....
I will let everyone know if my opinion changes.

Mimi La Rue
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:02 PM
I just don't understand why CWD is so interested in getting the saddle back. One would think they would simply bill the BNR for it. Unless the thing is plated in gold I don't see why they would go to so much trouble to track down a used saddle.

ETA - I just saw the post from Amandine, and while it explains a lot, I still don't understand why they don't just bill the BNR for the cost of the saddle.

I just saw your update. That's what I think should be done too. Pro needs to pay for full cost of saddle at the time loaned.

mg
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:02 PM
I am glad Amandine came on here to clear things up. I know OP's patchy and vague posts could have left a bad taste in people's mouths about CWD. After Amandine's post, this all sounds MUCH more legitimate and far less confusing.

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:03 PM
Well they probably loaned this saddle out to the pro. The pro got rid of the saddle. CWD is out of money on this saddle so they want the saddle back. Really it is still their saddle.

Right, but if they bill the pro for the cost of the saddle, they are no longer out any money. I understand that it's still their saddle, but wouldn't it be simpler to just make the pro pay for it? The way they are handling it now requires the thing to be shipped who knows where and for several people to receive refunds. Not to mention, the saddler the the loaner saddle was traded to will now be out THEIR saddle.

Seems like they are making it more complicated than it has to be.

ETA - Mimi La Rue, just saw your second post and I 100% agree with you. CWD does need to receive compensation, I just think they're going about it kind of backwards.

TrakHack
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:04 PM
ETA - I just saw the post from Amandine, and while it explains a lot, I still don't understand why they don't just bill the BNR for the cost of the saddle

This.

Mayaty02
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:05 PM
I am glad Amandine came on here to clear things up. I know OP's patchy and vague posts could have left a bad taste in people's mouths about CWD. After Amandine's post, this all sounds MUCH more legitimate and far less confusing.

I for one want my day back! OP's very vague and frustrating posts made me check this thread all day (at the expense of my working! :lol:) and now Amandine's response makes perfect sense. If I had known all of that and that it was from her as the official rep of CWD, I could have done alot more work today!

SarahandSam
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:05 PM
I just watched the season finale of "Jersey Shore" yesterday. So glad to have this thread to fill the freshly created void in my life...

Mimi La Rue
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:05 PM
That is uncalled for! I do not think this seller would knowingly do this and that is coming from someone who has JUST bought a saddle from her. She is horrified with the situation and says she will do right by me. Now if I do not get my money back it will be a different story and I will be right back here telling you all to beware but at this point I think she is just as innocent as I am in this whole mess!.
I know now how easy it is to end up just like this and I did ask her about this situation that is alleged about selling stolen saddles in the past It is not a common thing to call and check about a saddles history so it can happen.
No reason to thrash her reputation over this (my) incident as she seems on the up and up.....
I will let everyone know if my opinion changes.

Hey I am not making this stuff up on my own. I saw this posted prior and this incident reminded me of what I had read in the past. It was stated this seller has tried selling a stolen saddle in the past and instead of sending it back, they kept taking down the listing and re-listing it elsewhere. Seems pretty shady!

juststartingout
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:06 PM
I think that the buyer here is what is known as a bona fide purchaser for value.... I would not have returned the saddle without receiving a refund in advance. I hope all works out ok.

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:06 PM
I just saw your update. That's what I think should be done too. Pro needs to pay for full cost of saddle at the time loaned.

I 100 % agree with this unless the saddle was stolen from their barn, etc. But then why wasnt there a police report done for stolen saddle, etc? I think CWD needs to bill the Pro rider and leave the OP alone like discussed above. :yes:

MILOUTE55
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:07 PM
I just don't understand why CWD is so interested in getting the saddle back. One would think they would simply bill the BNR for it. Unless the thing is plated in gold I don't see why they would go to so much trouble to track down a used saddle.

ETA - I just saw the post from Amandine, and while it explains a lot, I still don't understand why they don't just bill the BNR for the cost of the saddle.

well first because the saddle belongs to us, and even though the company is doing very well we cannot afford to just forget about a saddle. A 2008 CWD is still worth a lot of money!
We are not going into "so much troubles". We are just making the right thing by answering to the OP's questions and disclosing the fact that this particular saddle belongs to CWD. In order for the OP not to be involved in a fraudulent sale, the only advice we could give was for her to request a refund and ship the saddle back.

The OP has been made aware that the saddle would be available for her to buy as soon as we get it back; and that if she wanted it, it would also be sold to her at a significantly lower price then what she paid for it. I explained to her that we usually don't like to sell saddles that have been ridden in by sponsored riders because they tend to "age" and get damaged faster since they ride in them every day. We usually keep them as demo saddles or to leave with customers as loaners.

Mayaty02
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:12 PM
well first because the saddle belongs to us, and even though the company is doing very well we cannot afford to just forget about a saddle. A 2008 CWD is still worth a lot of money!
We are not going into "so much troubles". We are just making the right thing by answering to the OP's questions and disclosing the fact that this particular saddle belongs to CWD. In order for the OP not to be involved in a fraudulent sale, the only advice we could give was for her to request a refund and ship the saddle back.

The OP has been made aware that the saddle would be available for her to buy as soon as we get it back; and that if she wanted it, it would also be sold to her at a significantly lower price then what she paid for it. I explained to her that we usually don't like to sell saddles that have been ridden in by sponsored riders because they tend to "age" and get damaged faster since they ride in them every day. We usually keep them as demo saddles or to leave with customers as loaners.

yet again, that makes perfect sense and I think that's awesome that she can repurchase the saddle, and I don't see why she wouldn't consider doing that, especially since she'll be buying direct.

MunchkinsMom
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:13 PM
I have not finished reading this whole thread, but you might want to read some of the information about internet fraud on this site:

http://www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml

And see if this situation is listed, or find who to report it to, in the event that it is a scam (which it seems like to me).

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:15 PM
Despite some frustrations, hard feelings, etc I think it would be nice if the OP gets the saddle in the end and at a lower price.

If CWD is able to do this for her that is a happy ending.

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:16 PM
well first because the saddle belongs to us, and even though the company is doing very well we cannot afford to just forget about a saddle. A 2008 CWD is still worth a lot of money!
We are not going into "so much troubles". We are just making the right thing by answering to the OP's questions and disclosing the fact that this particular saddle belongs to CWD. In order for the OP not to be involved in a fraudulent sale, the only advice we could give was for her to request a refund and ship the saddle back.

The OP has been made aware that the saddle would be available for her to buy as soon as we get it back; and that if she wanted it, it would also be sold to her at a significantly lower price then what she paid for it. I explained to her that we usually don't like to sell saddles that have been ridden in by sponsored riders because they tend to "age" and get damaged faster since they ride in them every day. We usually keep them as demo saddles or to leave with customers as loaners.

I think this is a great solution if she wants the saddle. Still think they should talk with the Pro rider to see wth happened, but it looks like the OP can get the saddle after all. Great resolution to a confusing/odd story! :D

MILOUTE55
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:17 PM
I 100 % agree with this unless the saddle was stolen from their barn, etc. But then why wasnt there a police report done for stolen saddle, etc? I think CWD needs to bill the Pro rider and leave the OP alone like discussed above. :yes:

because it really all just happened in the last 24 hours or so and I can't be spending my all day on that. I've already sacrificed my lunch over it and I'm kind of starving now...

And also because we haven't spoken to our sponsored rider yet and as some posters suggested she might not be aware that the saddle is even missing. What if the saddle got stolen from our rider? What if someone else from the barn did the trade?
Innocent till proven guilty, right?

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:22 PM
because it really all just happened in the last 24 hours or so and I can't be spending my all day on that. I've already sacrificed my lunch over it and I'm kind of starving now...

And also because we haven't spoken to our sponsored rider yet and as some posters suggested she might not be aware that the saddle is even missing. What if the saddle got stolen from our rider? What if someone else from the barn did the trade?
Innocent till proven guilty, right?

Wow. Isnt that exactly what i said? You even copied it. Let me say it again.

I 100 % agree with this unless the saddle was stolen from their barn, etc. But then why wasnt there a police report done for stolen saddle, etc? I think CWD needs to bill the Pro rider and leave the OP alone like discussed above.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:23 PM
Wow I find it amazing that I now feel like one of the bad guys in this! My "vague" posts were made so as to NOT OUT ANYONE and the CWD person knew that as we were communicating about it. I am glad you finally came on here to "clear" things up but I was in no way doing or saying anything wrong. People on here just were stirrimg up things and making things sound much worse. Maybe I should have posted each and everyones names right from the start and let the free for all have at it?
Now I have a bad taste for CWD unless I take her posts the wrong way. I was trying to do my best to protect everyone involved by not disclosing anyone at all.
Good Gosh some people need to take a big drink of there own piss and vinegar!
Yes I am now mad! Wish I had been the one to tell it like it was or wanted everyone to think!
I was shocked when I heard from CWD that this saddle was what it was! Now she makes me sound like the bad guy? Is it me that needs a big tall drink right now? I want to get this over with and never look back. As far as returning the saddle to CWD, I know and everyone else knows that if I had done that my money would be definately GONE GONE GONE.
Holy Crap batman!

Ibex
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:26 PM
I fully agree - CWD could have handled it a lot better. I didn't think your posts were vague at all - you'd simply cut out the identifying details. My feeling would be to keep the d@mn saddle in your possession and let them sort it out amongst themselves. No way I'd be sending it anywhere until the money was returned to you...

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:28 PM
Despite some frustrations, hard feelings, etc I think it would be nice if the OP gets the saddle in the end and at a lower price.

If CWD is able to do this for her that is a happy ending.

Nice thought but now I am upset and have not been up to this point yet. Trying to see the positive side in people. I have an upset and dissappointed daughter and less faith in people right now and am not sure who to trust. I do for some reason trust the Maryland Tack Exchange. THERE I OUTED SOMEONE!!!!!!
Something tell me if this whole situation involved County or Devoucoux it might be a whole different story and I would end up pleased but somehow I get the feeling this stink may not go away.
Yes I now have hard feelings and UPS still has not arrived!
The driver better be cute!
Ugh

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:29 PM
Wow I find it amazing that I now feel like one of the bad guys in this! My "vague" posts were made so as to NOT OUT ANYONE and the CWD person knew that as we were communicating about it. I am glad you finally came on here to "clear" things up but I was in no way doing or saying anything wrong. People on here just were stirrimg up things and making things sound much worse. Maybe I should have posted each and everyones names right from the start and let the free for all have at it?
Now I have a bad taste for CWD unless I take her posts the wrong way. I was trying to do my best to protect everyone involved by not disclosing anyone at all.
Good Gosh some people need to take a big drink of there own piss and vinegar!
Yes I am now mad! Wish I had been the one to tell it like it was or wanted everyone to think!
I was shocked when I heard from CWD that this saddle was what it was! Now she makes me sound like the bad guy? Is it me that needs a big tall drink right now? I want to get this over with and never look back. As far as returning the saddle to CWD, I know and everyone else knows that if I had done that my money would be definately GONE GONE GONE.
Holy Crap batman!

I dont think she is making you look like the bad guy at all. Shes simply stating ALL the facts now that her company was disclosed. Her story made a lot more sense since you werent answering all the questions. Not saying you are the bad guy but a lot of people were asking you a lot of questions so it may have been hard to write back to everyone. They are going to end up selling you the saddle once they get it back at a discounted price. I would be really happy with that resolution if I were you. No need for a bad taste with CWD. It also is not their fault that the saddle happened to land where it did. I hope everything works out for the better and that you end up with this saddle. :)

MILOUTE55
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:30 PM
Wow I find it amazing that I now feel like one of the bad guys in this! My "vague" posts were made so as to NOT OUT ANYONE and the CWD person knew that as we were communicating about it. I am glad you finally came on here to "clear" things up but I was in no way doing or saying anything wrong. People on here just were stirrimg up things and making things sound much worse. Maybe I should have posted each and everyones names right from the start and let the free for all have at it?
Now I have a bad taste for CWD unless I take her posts the wrong way. I was trying to do my best to protect everyone involved by not disclosing anyone at all.
Good Gosh some people need to take a big drink of there own piss and vinegar!
Yes I am now mad! Wish I had been the one to tell it like it was or wanted everyone to think!
I was shocked when I heard from CWD that this saddle was what it was! Now she makes me sound like the bad guy? Is it me that needs a big tall drink right now? I want to get this over with and never look back. As far as returning the saddle to CWD, I know and everyone else knows that if I had done that my money would be definately GONE GONE GONE.
Holy Crap batman!

Wow, where does that come from? Have you read my posts? Will you please tell me where I make you sound like the bad guy? It was never my intention and I truly believe I didn't say one bad thing about you.
I didn't say I wanted to "clear things up"; I said "clarify" and I believe it was needed.

I also said:


This is absolutely no scam and the OP is not a troll. She is doing the right thing in refusing the package as it will make things faster and will avoid for her to have to pay shipping fees.




The OP has been made aware that the saddle would be available for her to buy as soon as we get it back; and that if she wanted it, it would also be sold to her at a significantly lower price then what she paid for it. I explained to her that we usually don't like to sell saddles that have been ridden in by sponsored riders because they tend to "age" and get damaged faster since they ride in them every day. We usually keep them as demo saddles or to leave with customers as loaners.

bumknees
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:31 PM
OP relax. I dont think you are being hung out there. So dont feel like you are. You carefullly kept names out of your posts. I followed your thread beause there are more than a few saddlesI would not mind buying off of ebay ( if the govt. ever decides to relelase my refund) so if something like this should occure.
The CDW repesentive came here just to clear the haze a bit. not blaming you for your actions nor the seller nor the rider who originally had the saddle but just hoping to clear up a few things and to most likely assure the other posters this was not a scam.
Relaxtakedeepbreath..
you wanna adopt me? I could have used a parent /mom who would have spent that type of $$ on a saddle when I was a kid... We can always knock the 4 infront of the soon tobe 8 in my age... :)

Mimi La Rue
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:33 PM
dodedo I don't think anyone thinks you are the one at fault here or the bad guy. You sadly got dragged into this mess. It's not your doing. You questioned it as you ought of because it did sound like a scam. Everyone here was trying to help YOU! It got sorted out and is all good now. I do think you need a tall drink to relax a little. Maybe have a mod delete this thread since it seems like everything will work out in the end, if you want the discussion to be over?

KateKat
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:36 PM
Whoa. OP, honestly it sounds like CWD is working to clear this up for you. Also, the fact that they will resell it to you at a lower price would be enough to smooth my ruffled feathers from this whole debacle.

I don't think anyone is a bad guy here, just sounds like a lot of miscommunication.

The one thing I think is odd is that I thought in sponsorship situations the saddlemaker gave the equipment to the pro for free, and the pro owned/promoted that equipment at shows. I didn't know that in some cases the company retained ownership of it. I guess it kind of makes sense, but compared to the number of people who do actually buy the saddles at full price, the number of sponsored pros is pretty minimal. You would think a large, profitable company could write that cost off somehow as a business expense.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:37 PM
Look everyone just let this all settle down. I am a bit stressed out. Gee I wonder why?
I have tried to be really patient and understanding and all the while praying I do not get a royal scre#ing in all of this whole mess. I just want my money back and then I want to forget all of this ever happened. Good lord some people are pot stirrers getting me even more and more worried all the time.
Wish I had not started this thread and had not spent so much time on this. It was frankly helping me stay calm even though some of the posts were rather alarming.

I am going to kill that UPS guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where in tarnation is he?
Maybe my daughter just needs to quit riding! Too much headaches involved.
Time out for me now!

Mayaty02
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:38 PM
I agree with those who think OP may be going overboard in her anger right now. OP, your posts were a bit vague and hard to follow when presented with the facts from CWD. That said, you were trying to protect their identity and they were outed by another poster. Once CWD's name is out there, you bet they're going to come on here and state their side of the facts, especially since several posters actually used Amandine's specific name. She has a right to respond, and clearly she felt that she needed to. No harm no foul. I would so be all over that saddle once it's back in CWD's hands. But oh well, it sounds like its spiralled out of control. I would agree with asking the Mods to lock the post and just let it rest at this point.

MunchkinsMom
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:39 PM
I am going to kill that UPS guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where in tarnation is he?
Maybe my daughter just needs to quit riding! Too much headaches involved.
Time out for me now!

Maybe he got wind that he has a world-famous saddle and decided to sell it on eBay (just tossing some humor in here).

MunchkinsMom
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:41 PM
because it really all just happened in the last 24 hours or so and I can't be spending my all day on that. I've already sacrificed my lunch over it and I'm kind of starving now...

And also because we haven't spoken to our sponsored rider yet and as some posters suggested she might not be aware that the saddle is even missing. What if the saddle got stolen from our rider? What if someone else from the barn did the trade?
Innocent till proven guilty, right?

I do recall reading several news bits in our paper about high-dollar saddles reported stolen while HITS was going on, hope this was not one of them.

Sonoma City
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:44 PM
OP, sounds like you're getting a pretty good deal out of the situation! A day of annoyance to get a really nice saddle (which you already thought you got a good deal on) at a cheaper price! Don't be too proud to capitalize on the situation and accept their offer!

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:44 PM
Maybe he got wind that he has a world-famous saddle and decided to sell it on eBay (just tossing some humor in here).

I should actually keep the darned thing and hold it for ransome! And keep the UPS guy too!

As far as closing the thread I am tempted to ask but I want to make sure everyone know when this is all said and done how things worked out.
For now....barebacked we shall ride!

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:45 PM
OP, sounds like you're getting a pretty good deal out of the situation! A day of annoyance to get a really nice saddle (which you already thought you got a good deal on) at a cheaper price! Don't be too proud to capitalize on the situation and accept their offer!

This. :)

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:50 PM
OP, sounds like you're getting a pretty good deal out of the situation! A day of annoyance to get a really nice saddle (which you already thought you got a good deal on) at a cheaper price! Don't be too proud to capitalize on the situation and accept their offer!

I am sure that this saddle will probably never get back to CWD. I have no idea where it will end up and that is a shame.
I would not have tried to buy it in the first place if I didnt want it but there are too many hoops to jump through for it to make it all the way back to the rightful owner (CWD). I doubt I will have the chance to buy it anyway and not sure it would be a good enough deal to make me want that demon saddle anyway! It is a trouble maker saddle!
Where is UPS?????????????
I have stayed in all day waiting on them and I am starving!!!!!!!

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:51 PM
OP I bet once you have chance to relax and calm down you will see most everyone was just trying to help you including the CDW rep who was also probably frustrated by this mess. She has not spoken badly about you only wanted to clarify what you had not. I understand you were trying to not bring names, be specific and unfortunately that always causes us COTHers to go down different paths that aren't relevant. (such as how saddler got your email) and then we suspect things that are not true. Honestly I think the most bashing was done of the saddler not you at all.

I would be delighted to end up with the saddle in the end if I were you. Maybe the seller told UPS to stop shipment? You might want to check with the seller. That would have made the most sense originally.

Good luck and hope you get the saddle in the end. By the way gorgeous saddle!

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:53 PM
I am sure that this saddle will probably never get back to CWD. I have no idea where it will end up and that is a shame.
I would not have tried to buy it in the first place if I didnt want it but there are too many hoops to jump through for it to make it all the way back to the rightful owner (CWD). I doubt I will have the chance to buy it anyway and not sure it would be a good enough deal to make me want that demon saddle anyway! It is a trouble maker saddle!
Where is UPS?????????????
I have stayed in all day waiting on them and I am starving!!!!!!!

see both you and the CDW rep need to relax, eat a good meal and have a glass of vino:)
I would check with seller to see if they may have stopped shipment,so no cute UPS guy. Also you never know I think CDW will do their best to get that saddle back and then sell to you. You never know.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 05:54 PM
OP I bet once you have chance to relax and calm down you will see most everyone was just trying to help you including the CDW rep who was also probably frustrated by this mess. She has not spoken badly about you only wanted to clarify what you had not. I understand you were trying to not bring names, be specific and unfortunately that always causes us COTHers to go down different paths that aren't relevant. (such as how saddler got your email) and then we suspect things that are not true. Honestly I think the most bashing was done of the saddler not you at all.

I would be delighted to end up with the saddle in the end if I were you. Maybe the seller told UPS to stop shipment? You might want to check with the seller. That would have made the most sense originally.

Good luck and hope you get the saddle in the end. By the way gorgeous saddle!

I know ....UGH I am so dissappointed in the whole thing!

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:00 PM
see both you and the CDW rep need to relax, eat a good meal and have a glass of vino:)
I would check with seller to see if they may have stopped shipment,so no cute UPS guy. Also you never know I think CDW will do their best to get that saddle back and then sell to you. You never know.

It's CWD. :winkgrin:

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:10 PM
UPS just pulled up....

KBC
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:15 PM
I should actually keep the darned thing and hold it for ransome! And keep the UPS guy too!


You can only keep him if he is cute.



It's CWD. :winkgrin:

Not if you are CDO afflicted

http://trollcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/i_have_cdo_ocd_trollcat.jpg

OP, sorry that you have had the day from hell with all of this, I can surely understand you being frustrated beyond belief.

mvp
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:36 PM
Oh, man! I miss everything.

Hey, did anyone set up any kind of betting pool on this? The UPS truck has arrived. I want to lay some money on the OP refusing shipment..... Is there still time?

I'll tell you why later.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:38 PM
The demon saddle is gone away on the big brown truck with the big brown man driver at the wheel.
I hope this is over with and in a positive way.
I never got to see it, never got to touch it or smell it or anything.
From what I understand there is quite the stink now between the Pro who traded it in and the company she traded it to. But as long as I get my money back it is not my problem. My problem is wanting to or not wanting to find another saddle.
I will still promise to update when the money hits my account.
I did speak with the seller and she said she was right away going to credit me. She got on the phone with the UPS guy to get her proof that it was going back on the truck and heading her way.
Wow what a hellacious day!

findeight
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:38 PM
I didn't have any problem with anything said on here by any side and it looks like it is going to get settled.

Have to understand a Mother might get testy when the DDs prized present blows up in her face thru no fault of her own.

Also that anybody, dealer or individual, who buys a used high end saddle may unknowingly be buying a stolen item. The only fault here looks to be with whoever stole that saddle and sold it to the unamed first dealer who sold it to the seller who sold it to OP. Maybe there IS a police report on it from Ocala or maybe the Pro has no idea it's missing-and maybe they did not keep track of that serial # to put on the police report of there is one.

My only question is....was the UPS guy cute enough to make this worth it?

bizbachfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:40 PM
It's CWD. :winkgrin:

oooops :) CDW does something entirely different, :)

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:41 PM
Oh, man! I miss everything.

Hey, did anyone set up any kind of betting pool on this? The UPS truck has arrived. I want to lay some money on the OP refusing shipment..... Is there still time?

I'll tell you why later.

Why why why????

MILOUTE55
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:43 PM
Not if you are CDO afflicted

http://trollcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/i_have_cdo_ocd_trollcat.jpg

OP, sorry that you have had the day from hell with all of this, I can surely understand you being frustrated beyond belief.

:D LOL

it reminded me of that stupid image my husband emailed me last week:
http://theedmontonian.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/my-hair-is-a-bird-argument-invalid-386x449.jpg

OP, you did the right thing! I'll be in touch with you when we get the saddle back. In the meantime I'll be on the look for a similar used saddle for you.

tallygirl
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:50 PM
I am sure the Pro rider and the company taking the saddle in on a trade are at each others necks but it is the Pro riders fault. Sounds like it WAS indeed traded in by pro rider. Now the pro rider will have to pay for trading something in that was not their property. That's all. :yes:

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 06:51 PM
OK so everyone knows I have already recieved an email from PayPal that Maryland Tack Exchange ie the Ebay seller has credited me the entire amt of the purchase. Unless something crazy happens over the next few days I will stand by my opinion of the entire situation that she had no idea that this saddle was wayward from where it belonged. She did exactly as she promised me and refunded my money. This is a good person who stands by what she says.
I thank everyone for their support and some of the laughs today as well!

TarheelJD
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:01 PM
Glad you got your money back OP! Hopefully you'll end up with a nice saddle at an even better price to make up for all of the drama.

mvp
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:17 PM
The demon saddle is gone away on the big brown truck with the big brown man driver at the wheel.
I hope this is over with and in a positive way.
I never got to see it, never got to touch it or smell it or anything.
From what I understand there is quite the stink now between the Pro who traded it in and the company she traded it to. But as long as I get my money back it is not my problem. My problem is wanting to or not wanting to find another saddle.
I will still promise to update when the money hits my account.
I did speak with the seller and she said she was right away going to credit me. She got on the phone with the UPS guy to get her proof that it was going back on the truck and heading her way.
Wow what a hellacious day!

I win!


Why why why????

Because:

I think The Law says that if you are found to have stolen goods, you must return it stuff to the rightful owner with no compensation.

This E-bay seller has been around for a long time. I believe the seller saying she had no clue.

I also believe CWD's Competitor had no clue. Perhaps they should have tried harder to get one. But I can't imagine them asking a BNR who wants to trade in a competitor's saddle for a new one of theirs if it's A-OK. Interest of that company aside or the awkward question aside, I imagine that it's a PITA to chase down the serial numbers of every saddle they are offered in trade.

Unfortunately, I think the E-bay seller will take the financial loss here. And she was just as duped as CWD's Competitor. But I doubt the chain of refunds will include one for the E-bay seller.

But how about a happy ending? The saddle has no monetary value to anyone but CWD and it's not what it was when the saddle was new. On the other hand, how nice would it be for the OP's kid to have her booty in a saddle that had had more famous booty in it?

If CWD could come to some amicable resolution with their BNR, the OP should buy this "perfect" saddle back from them and get a name plate that says "BNR wuz here." Heck, BNR should autograph it for the kid.

What a great story behind this saddle, eh?

MHM
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:20 PM
Phew! Glad it all got resolved. Sorry you had such a rollercoaster day.

Once you catch your breath, you might want to think about buying that saddle directly from CWD, since they're offering it at a better price than you were willing to pay in the first place. :yes:

MunchkinsMom
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:31 PM
OK so everyone knows I have already recieved an email from PayPal that Maryland Tack Exchange ie the Ebay seller has credited me the entire amt of the purchase. Unless something crazy happens over the next few days I will stand by my opinion of the entire situation that she had no idea that this saddle was wayward from where it belonged. She did exactly as she promised me and refunded my money. This is a good person who stands by what she says.
I thank everyone for their support and some of the laughs today as well!

I hope you give the seller some good referral points on eBay :). And thanks for the update.

BLBGP
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:39 PM
Ohmigosh, I am so sorry I did not see this before I posted what I did. This is much better advice. I am only on page 2 but curiosity will keep me reading. I will hope we are going to read 'the rest of the story' at some point on how this all pans out.

Perhaps you should catch up on it all before posting again. ;)

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:40 PM
I win!



Because:

I think The Law says that if you are found to have stolen goods, you must return it stuff to the rightful owner with no compensation.

This E-bay seller has been around for a long time. I believe the seller saying she had no clue.

I also believe CWD's Competitor had no clue. Perhaps they should have tried harder to get one. But I can't imagine them asking a BNR who wants to trade in a competitor's saddle for a new one of theirs if it's A-OK. Interest of that company aside or the awkward question aside, I imagine that it's a PITA to chase down the serial numbers of every saddle they are offered in trade.

Unfortunately, I think the E-bay seller will take the financial loss here. And she was just as duped as CWD's Competitor. But I doubt the chain of refunds will include one for the E-bay seller.

But how about a happy ending? The saddle has no monetary value to anyone but CWD and it's not what it was when the saddle was new. On the other hand, how nice would it be for the OP's kid to have her booty in a saddle that had had more famous booty in it?

If CWD could come to some amicable resolution with their BNR, the OP should buy this "perfect" saddle back from them and get a name plate that says "BNR wuz here." Heck, BNR should autograph it for the kid.

What a great story behind this saddle, eh?

I know it! What a saga this has been.

dodedo
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:43 PM
I hope you give the seller some good referral points on eBay :). And thanks for the update.

I will but not until that refund has actually cleared the bank and is free and clear back on my AmEx card!

danceronice
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:46 PM
Re the post two pages back about who owns sponsored saddles--see, I assumed the opposite, that it's like sponsor dresses in dancesport, strictly loaners (and in most cases the dress vendor only gives them the dress at a comp and gets it back right there.) I can't imagine just GIVING someone something worth $3000+ to keep. (Though I suspect it works differently for male dancers with things like Latin trousers that have to be custom-tailored, but they're much, much cheaper than a gown or a gentleman's tailsuit.) So I would think the saddles that are $3k and up would be loaners.

MintHillFarm
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:49 PM
THAT! And, that email from the saddle maker really didn't sound very professional, which makes me suspicious.

I would not even CONSIDER refusing delivery or sending that saddle anywhere until you have the money in your hand. Might be a scam, might not be, but you are not the one who screwed up here, so you should be made whole FIRST, before anyone else gets what they want.

THIS.

So, the PI in me says it is a scam...maybe they are working together and re sell this saddle time and again and split the money....or maybe not.

I would keep the saddle, it's your only way of potentially getting the money returned. Do not send it or refuse delivery till you get the money. I would only accept PayPal to avoid anyone getting your account info.

Let us know what happens!

findeight
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:50 PM
Ohmigosh, I am so sorry I did not see this before I posted what I did. This is much better advice. I am only on page 2 but curiosity will keep me reading. I will hope we are going to read 'the rest of the story' at some point on how this all pans out.

Yeah, start on page 9 and skip the rest because that was all conjecture and the matter has been resolved now with more factual information. It was not a scam.

Saddle was returned on the advice of all parties and OP HAS HER REFUND.

The rest is between CWD and their (former?) Pro who somehow "lost" that saddle or "forgot" they signed a contract agreeing it was not theirs and to return it. And between those 2 parties only.

findeight
Mar. 30, 2011, 07:55 PM
Let us know what happens!


She did already...you know, sometimes it is good to check the last few posts of a 12 page thread to see if the situation was resolved.

sdlbredfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:13 PM
I just don't understand why CWD is so interested in getting the saddle back. One would think they would simply bill the BNR for it. Unless the thing is plated in gold I don't see why they would go to so much trouble to track down a used saddle.

ETA - I just saw the post from Amandine, and while it explains a lot, I still don't understand why they don't just bill the BNR for the cost of the saddle.

This! For pete's sake, why on earth CWD did not do exactly that is boggling my mind. I am glad Amandine has provided the rest of the story, but this is so odd even having that background provided. I think CWD's rep has just bungled what could have been a really nice bit of public relations for the company. OP should have been allowed to keep the saddle, and CWD should have pursued recompense from the BNR.

sdlbredfan
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:15 PM
That is uncalled for! I do not think this seller would knowingly do this and that is coming from someone who has JUST bought a saddle from her. She is horrified with the situation and says she will do right by me. Now if I do not get my money back it will be a different story and I will be right back here telling you all to beware but at this point I think she is just as innocent as I am in this whole mess!.
I know now how easy it is to end up just like this and I did ask her about this situation that is alleged about selling stolen saddles in the past It is not a common thing to call and check about a saddles history so it can happen.
No reason to thrash her reputation over this (my) incident as she seems on the up and up.....
I will let everyone know if my opinion changes.

I agree. I hope the eBay seller (of whom I always have had a high opinion) considers legal action against CWD for that libelous statement.

Flashy Gray VA
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:17 PM
I guess in the era of very high end saddles, the legalities of arrangements between companies and sponsored riders is different, because the saddles hold a significant value for resale.

I worked for 2 VBNJRs with saddle sponsorships (during the very start of the high end Euro pillow saddle trend) and those saddles belonged to the riders, period. The cost of the "freebie" saddles was borne as part of an overall marketing and promotion budget, simple overhead - swag, as aptly stated below by mvp. No expectation of ownership rights being retained by the manufacturer.

Also, thanks F8 for making the hypothetical case for the sponsored rider being out of the loop as to the whereabouts of what is likely one saddle out of literally bazillions for the average traveling VBNJR roadshow.

To use another analogy, I highly doubt a NASCAR driver knows the exact inventory and status of each tire (costing several thousands of dollars each, actually) that is used and shipped from track to track during the racing season. That's what a crew chief is for.

I suppose there are no bad guys in this confusion between OP, original saddle maker, and E-bay saddle seller.

I have to say that I think that CWD is pretty generous with their new price offer to the OP as well as putting up with the speculation about their corporate actions on this particular thread before their rep set the record straight.

SillyHorse
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:18 PM
...but not until that refund has actually cleared the bank and is free and clear back on my AmEx card!
This is what I'm waiting to hear.

mvp
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:33 PM
Re the post two pages back about who owns sponsored saddles--see, I assumed the opposite, that it's like sponsor dresses in dancesport, strictly loaners (and in most cases the dress vendor only gives them the dress at a comp and gets it back right there.) I can't imagine just GIVING someone something worth $3000+ to keep. (Though I suspect it works differently for male dancers with things like Latin trousers that have to be custom-tailored, but they're much, much cheaper than a gown or a gentleman's tailsuit.) So I would think the saddles that are $3k and up would be loaners.

Could be, but this may be a new trend in sponsorship.

In the 1990s, I met a guy who had pretty new looking Barnsby. Story went the had been a groom for a VBNR and she had given the saddle to him. It had been swag given to her by Barnsby.


This! For pete's sake, why on earth CWD did not do exactly that is boggling my mind. I am glad Amandine has provided the rest of the story, but this is so odd even having that background provided. I think CWD's rep has just bungled what could have been a really nice bit of public relations for the company. OP should have been allowed to keep the saddle, and CWD should have pursued recompense from the BNR.

Unless I have this wrong, I don't think a CWD rep was involved. It sounds like a sponsorship arrangement between CWD and a BNR who didn't read his/her contract. If you mean Amandine by "CWD rep," well, give it time. If you were the person in charge of keeping track of saddles lent, and making sure stolen ones weren't being sold here and there often (as apparently happens), you might just had "had it up to *here*" with discovering one more of these on E-bay. It would be also frustrating to know that it got there because one of your sponsored riders had screwed up (not to mention trading it to a competitor for one of theirs! How's that for a business relationship?).

A bad day was had by all.

MILOUTE55
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:46 PM
Unless I have this wrong, I don't think a CWD rep was involved. It sounds like a sponsorship arrangement between CWD and a BNR who didn't read his/her contract. If you mean Amandine by "CWD rep," well, give it time. If you were the person in charge of keeping track of saddles lent, and making sure stolen ones weren't being sold here and there often (as apparently happens), you might just had "had it up to *here*" with discovering one more of these on E-bay. It would be also frustrating to know that it got there because one of your sponsored riders had screwed up (not to mention trading it to a competitor for one of theirs! How's that for a business relationship?).

A bad day was had by all.

Thanks! Thanks! Thanks!

I mean, seriously! :)

Now I have to run, to pick up my baby late from the daycare after a long 9 hour-no lunch day. And no I'm not a rep, I don't get commissions and I don't get paid for the extra hours and the "stolen saddles" recovery services I provide. I wish some customer would come to my rescue here and tell their stories (many with happy endings). I've actually helped locate (and brought back to their rightful owners) quite a few stolen saddles over the years.

juststartingout
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:47 PM
I win!



Because:

I think The Law says that if you are found to have stolen goods, you must return it stuff to the rightful owner with no compensation. ...

What a great story behind this saddle, eh?

Actually I don't think so.... I think that the innocent buyer (a bona fide purchaser for value) is not necessarily required to return the purchased goods.

In this case it all worked out... so no harm no foul

Brookes
Mar. 30, 2011, 08:59 PM
I used to work for a saddle company and my job was to set up the BNRs with saddles. The agreement was the saddle belonged to the company not the rider, the rider was to show in the saddle a certain number of times, etc. blah blah blah. If rider did not do so then the saddle was to be returned in excellent condition. This is very common with big saddle companies that want to get a big name butt in their saddles. Everyone knows that normally whatever the trainer rides in the folks in their barn will follow suit, or their fans will. It's a huge marketing tool for saddle companies. A very successful one too!!

However a very very well know eventer sent one of our saddles back and it looked like they had taken a chain saw to it. They had cut the stitching and removed the knee rolls, then the cantle had a huge piece of leather missing from it, looked like it had been dragged behind the horse trailer! The tree was broken. I could go on.

That rider was billed for the value of the saddle, told us to shove it where the sun doesn't shine. They said they would bad mouth our company to anyone who would stand still long enough to listen. The owner ended up writing it off.

After that our contracts changed with the riders; they were made to understand that they were on the hook financially should that saddle be destroyed, stolen whatever. We never had another problem other than that one time. But that rider had a kharma moment that we all got to witness! It's never good to piss off the universe!!

SillyHorse
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:11 PM
However a very very well know eventer sent one of our saddles back and it looked like they had taken a chain saw to it. They had cut the stitching and removed the knee rolls, then the cantle had a huge piece of leather missing from it, looked like it had been dragged behind the horse trailer! The tree was broken. I could go on.

That rider was billed for the value of the saddle, told us to shove it where the sun doesn't shine. They said they would bad mouth our company to anyone who would stand still long enough to listen. The owner ended up writing it off.

After that our contracts changed with the riders; they were made to understand that they were on the hook financially should that saddle be destroyed, stolen whatever. We never had another problem other than that one time. But that rider had a kharma moment that we all got to witness! It's never good to piss off the universe!!
Gee, I wonder who that might be... :lol:

Flashy Gray VA
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:40 PM
Well, I guess this is a bit off-topic, but I don't understand why these saddle companies don't just give 'em away as swag and insist on retaining ownership rights.

:confused:

Especially considering that it's a saddle - you know, a piece of equipment made for sitting on by people's backsides, strapped to the back of an 1100+ lb. hairy sweaty equine, used in a dirt/grass arena in an outdoor sport that happens to involve speed, heights, and the occasional wipeout/crash.

But by all means, return it to us with nary a scratch! :lol:

I have no idea what the profit margins are in the high-end saddle business. I'm certainly not comparing their revenue stream to that of major multi-nationals such as LVMH, but when Celine or Marc Jacobs or Givenchy give away ridiculously high-end pieces of clothing, jewelry, or accessories to celebrities, the advertising and subsequent sales that are generated DO cover the cost of the articles.

I'm pretty certain about this, even without an MBA or degree in fashion merchandizing. ;)

Mimi La Rue
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:47 PM
^Uhh actually most celebs get to borrow from designers. It's the same thing. Majority of those actresses give back their gowns and jewels after red carpet events.

Flashy Gray VA
Mar. 30, 2011, 09:58 PM
Mimi, I know that some items such as one-of-a-kind Oscar couture dresses are loaners, but from friends who work in the magazine side of the biz, I know that the big designers give away boatloads of stuff. Seriously - the individual gift bags for high end charity events, award shows, etc. can run into the tens of thousands of dollars according to media reports - google "Oscar swag."

Not contradicting you at all, but with saddles, considering the possibility of wear and tear, etc. it would seem to be a massive PITA for saddle makers to try to enforce strict ownership over the stuff. Just think it's a curious business practice.

mvp
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:07 PM
Flashy Gray--

Please don't argue for saddle swag!

It makes it hard on the people who really do need individualized saddles for a crazy combo of horse and rider shape. We pay a lot for a custom saddle because we are financing a BNR and also the folks who buy primarily because they saw so-n-so riding in it.

MILOUTE55
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:16 PM
Well, I guess this is a bit off-topic, but I don't understand why these saddle companies don't just give 'em away as swag and insist on retaining ownership rights.

:confused:

Especially considering that it's a saddle - you know, a piece of equipment made for sitting on by people's backsides, strapped to the back of an 1100+ lb. hairy sweaty equine, used in a dirt/grass arena in an outdoor sport that happens to involve speed, heights, and the occasional wipeout/crash.

But by all means, return it to us with nary a scratch! :lol:

I have no idea what the profit margins are in the high-end saddle business. I'm certainly not comparing their revenue stream to that of major multi-nationals such as LVMH, but when Celine or Marc Jacobs or Givenchy give away ridiculously high-end pieces of clothing, jewelry, or accessories to celebrities, the advertising and subsequent sales that are generated DO cover the cost of the articles.

I'm pretty certain about this, even without an MBA or degree in fashion merchandizing. ;)

No that's a very legit and logical question. I can't speak for all the manufacturers but for CWD I know that there are several reasons why the saddles with top riders "remain property of CWD".
First I want to clarify that by "top riders" we mean olympian or world class riders, not many riders get fully sponsored.
Ok so the reasons are the following:

1/ if the saddles belonged to top riders, they could turn around and sell them for a profit. And we all know that top riders don't make as much money as red carpet actors. So the temptation will be strong to make 4 or 5K just by "loosing" a saddle.

2/ if the saddles belonged to them, top riders could do anything they want with them. Paint them red or ride in ugly old beat up saddles; that would do no good to the company's reputation. By keeping ownership of the saddles, we make sure to switch the sponsored saddles on a regular basis so the riders always have nice saddles to ride in. There is a few exceptions to this, as some riders (like Mclain Ward) tend to love riding in one old completely broken in (understand "beat up") saddle. We've had the hardest time taking his old CWD and getting him to ride in a new one ;) In the end we did a compromise and replaced most parts on his preferred saddle so it still has the feel he likes but it looks much better.

I hope that answers your questions.

As for the whole thread, I truly think some posters need to stop calling a troll or a scam everyone that has a slightly weird story to tell. People come here to ask questions or look for advice whenever they find themselves in a weird or difficult situation. It the story was easy and the answer was obvious, they wouldn't post it here!
I really believe there are not that many true "trolls". I've seen some posters start real trainwrecks when truly they were only looking for advice or asking one innocent question. Apart from titles including "Pat Parelli", "horse slaugther" or anything negative about George Morris; I don't think anyone on this board is on a mission to start crazy threads.... I might just be naive ;)

Flashy Gray VA
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:29 PM
mvp - not arguing for or against, I'm simply just curious about the motives for free swag vs. loaners.

Miloute - your answers that have helped my understanding, appreciate the perspective of the manufacturer. Now go enjoy the rest of your evening! :D

Platinum Equestrian
Mar. 30, 2011, 10:40 PM
Well, I guess this is a bit off-topic, but I don't understand why these saddle companies don't just give 'em away as swag and insist on retaining ownership rights.

:confused:



You are kidding, right? You realize if that were to happen the price of the saddles would have to go up? Which you would then promptly complain about... They are in business to make money... :yes:

OP, Glad it got settled and hope your cash makes it back to your account...:winkgrin:

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Mar. 31, 2011, 12:25 AM
What a mess.

I sincerely hope that all comes out well for the OP, the ebay seller, and CWD.

Sounds like a headache of a day for all involved, and a sad story for a Mom trying to get something wonderful as a present for her DD.

I would like to thank our lovely friend at CWD for taking the time to answer so many questions and help us all understand better their perspective.

Slightly unrelated, I find it sad to think that saddle theft is so common that CWD has had hands in sorting out so many. But I really do hope that if my saddle were ever stolen they would be diligent about helping resolve it as it sounds they have been for other people.

Prime Time Rider
Mar. 31, 2011, 12:28 AM
dodedo I don't think anyone thinks you are the one at fault here or the bad guy. You sadly got dragged into this mess. It's not your doing. You questioned it as you ought of because it did sound like a scam. Everyone here was trying to help YOU! It got sorted out and is all good now. I do think you need a tall drink to relax a little. Maybe have a mod delete this thread since it seems like everything will work out in the end, if you want the discussion to be over?

This is ridiculous. This whole mess isn't the responsibility of the OP to rectify. If a pro rider violated the terms of her/his contract with CWD, then it is CWD's responsibility to demand the pro rider either return the saddle (which obviously, they can't since they sold it) or compensate CWD for the value of the saddle. This is a contractual matter between CWD and the pro rider. Unless the saddle was stolen from the pro rider's barn (doubtful since there is no police report indicating that it was stolen), it isn't stolen merchandise. Rather than going after the OP who innocently purchased a saddle through eBay, CWD needs to contact the pro rider and demand either payment for the value of the saddle; or the saddle back. What kind of professional company asks an innocent 3rd party to basically take the hit to enforce their contract. Why hasn't the CWD representative contacted the pro rider? Because she was "too busy???" Let me get ths straight, she's too busy to contact the pro rider who evidently violated the contract with CWD, but NOT too busy to instruct the OP to return the saddle to the seller, and contact the seller of the saddle demanding that she return the saddle, etc??? Then she has the gall to suggest that the OP contact the moderator to have this thread deleted? Unbelievable!! So that CWD doesn't look bad? Is CWD too cheap to hire an attorney to enforce its contracts with pro riders? At this point CWD should give the OP the saddle for all of her time and aggrevation!

Mimi La Rue
Mar. 31, 2011, 12:40 AM
This is ridiculous. This whole mess isn't the responsibility of the OP to rectify. If a pro rider violated the terms of her/his contract with CWD, then it is CWD's responsibility to demand the pro rider either return the saddle (which obviously, they can't since they sold it) or compensate CWD for the value of the saddle. This is a contractual matter between CWD and the pro rider. Unless the saddle was stolen from the pro rider's barn (doubtful since there is no police report indicating that it was stolen), it isn't stolen merchandise. Rather than going after the OP who innocently purchased a saddle through eBay, CWD needs to contact the pro rider and demand either payment for the value of the saddle; or the saddle back. What kind of professional company asks an innocent 3rd party to basically take the hit to enforce their contract. Why hasn't the CWD representative contacted the pro rider? Because she was "too busy???" Let me get ths straight, she's too busy to contact the pro rider who evidently violated the contract with CWD, but NOT too busy to instruct the OP to return the saddle to the seller, and contact the seller of the saddle demanding that she return the saddle, etc??? Then she has the gall to suggest that the OP contact the moderator to have this thread deleted? Unbelievable!! So that CWD doesn't look bad? Is CWD too cheap to hire an attorney to enforce its contracts with pro riders? At this point CWD should give the OP the saddle for all of her time and aggrevation!

You took what I said to the OP in the wrong way. Where do I blame her? Never! Re-read what I wrote!

I suggested to the OP that this thread could be deleted if she wanted it to be since she was starting to feel like a bad guy over all this. She didn't want it to be deleted though and that is totally fine.

piccolittle
Mar. 31, 2011, 03:01 AM
This is ridiculous. This whole mess isn't the responsibility of the OP to rectify. If a pro rider violated the terms of her/his contract with CWD, then it is CWD's responsibility to demand the pro rider either return the saddle (which obviously, they can't since they sold it) or compensate CWD for the value of the saddle. This is a contractual matter between CWD and the pro rider. Unless the saddle was stolen from the pro rider's barn (doubtful since there is no police report indicating that it was stolen), it isn't stolen merchandise. Rather than going after the OP who innocently purchased a saddle through eBay, CWD needs to contact the pro rider and demand either payment for the value of the saddle; or the saddle back.

This. I can understand that this is the easier (and less risky) thing for the manufacturer to do, as billing the pro risks some nasty words, but the pro has breached the contract. It's very frustrating to me that the pro was not apprised of his/her full legal obligations and that some BNR is going to get off scot-free for some very shady dealings while the OP has to scramble to sort this out. I very much hope that CWD is going to rethink the sponsorship with this rider, at the very least.