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amt813
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:57 PM
I am curious about tack nosebands. Why did you put one on your horse - or for what purpose would one put a tack noseband on a horse - and did it help? TIA.

Dapple Dawn Farm
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:59 PM
I wouldn't _ever_ see the need to use one :no:

STA
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:43 PM
I used a tack noseband on one horse twice. I put it on loosely with a standing martingale, he stuck he head in the air to buck. (Yes, he bucked with his head up.) Never bucked, but tried to buck about twenty minutes later, hit it again and never tried again.

PNWjumper
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:52 PM
I used one on a mare I had. She was the. worst. headflipper. ever. It wasn't a physical issue, it wasn't a rider issue, and it was almost identical to the habit that her sire had through his life of showing. She was a small mare with a very upright neck and she could practically set her head in your lap if she wanted to (and she did.....often). She came very close to getting me in the face good more than a few times, and caught my helper rider in the chin more than once.

We tried using a running martingale on her (it did absolutely nothing), and tried using a standing martingale on her (she broke one with her head flipping and it didn't curb the behavior at all either). In the meantime I had her in an intensive dressage program because I was sure that I could at least start to address it by strengthening her hind end and getting her more comfortable using her neck in a "positive" way. But as she got stronger and more "correct" she still continued to head flip and it finally dawned on me that it was deeply ingrained habit that strengthening alone wasn't going to address.

I eventually took her to a clinic with a very BNT who suggested a standing martingale and a tack noseband. For the purpose of the clinic he tucked a rock under the noseband and tightened the standing. The difference it made in the mare was incredible. She hit the rock a couple of times and then (true to her wickedly smart personality) softened into a lovely frame and did not flip her head again for the rest of the clinic.

I had the kid who was riding her ride use the tack noseband and a standing martingale from that point until I sold her. It kept her from engaging in her habit (which I think was very much ingrained in her as much as cribbing for a cribber or weaving for a weaver) and made her much more rideable. The goal was to eventually wean her off of it entirely, and to my knowledge the kid that has her now doesn't need it.

In regards to the post 2 above mine....

I don't believe that there's anything that's *never* appropriate with horses. Anything can have a use in the hands of an experienced and sensitive horseman. Can a tack noseband be abused? Absolutely. Would I use it on an average horse without trying other things first? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that it *can't* have a use for any horse ever.

cswoodlandfairy
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:58 PM
I used one on my gelding and its not tight or anything but he actually doesn't like it when I switch to a normal noseband. I actually made my own because most out there are really hard and he just needs it for his head and forwardness. I guess it kinda keeps him in check. My homemade one has rounded conical shaped "tacks" and I could put my weight on the area and it doesn't hurt me at all. But it has definitely helped with him wanted to raise his head above the bit and take off with me

goodmorning
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:59 PM
A tack noseband really doesn't go into effect unless the horse flings it's head around, opens it's mouth...not desirable traits, and the noseband isn't the first thing that comes out of the tack trunk ;) I've also seen in used on a pony that like to yank the reins & freight train around the corners. Worked wonderfully, and this was an absolutely lovely pony otherwise.

Dapple Dawn Farm
Mar. 24, 2011, 02:20 PM
PNWJumper...I said I couldn't see a situation where I would use it....I'm not a fan of trying to stop a behavior with pain.

Petstorejunkie
Mar. 24, 2011, 02:27 PM
PNWJumper...I said I couldn't see a situation where I would use it....I'm not a fan of trying to stop a behavior with pain.

They work great when used on the appropriate party, the rider.

amt813
Mar. 24, 2011, 03:42 PM
Thanks for all the responses so far ...

I am trying to see if it would help with my horse - but I wasn't sure if it was an appropriate use or would be helpful -

I show my horse in both the hunters and jumpers. When I show in the hunters it usually the 3' but I have also competed in the 3'3" A/Os. He is far from the fanciest horse in the world - but I think that if I could rectify this one issue it may help a lot. Some times in front of a jump he will invert a few strides before take off and jump somewhat inverted. Its not like hes knocking my teeth out or jumping like a deer but its definitely noticeable. Most often its when I have to open his stride and move up - whether it be inside a line or for a bit of a longer distance - I sort of lose him in that rather then staying down and relaxed and opening his stride he puts his head up. I am not strong enough to really keep him together with my leg and hands when he does this.

He is very well broke on the flat and I can open his stride and collect him with him in a frame. I can keep his head down and him together from a collected canter to a jump. But if I have to push him onto a more gallopy stride on course I lose the togetherness and the head comes up. My thought was that perhaps a tack noseband would serve as slight reminder that his head shouldn't come up when we go to open the stride in front of a jump - this might not work at all - but it was a random thought I had.

Hopefully my explanation makes some sort of sense. Thanks again for all the insight! :)

mjhco
Mar. 24, 2011, 04:29 PM
PNWJumper...I said I couldn't see a situation where I would use it....I'm not a fan of trying to stop a behavior with pain.

So you have never ever

1. Pulled on the reins

2. Poked with a spur

3. Shanked a rearing stallion with a chain over its nose

4. Slapped a horse with a crop or whip

FineAlready
Mar. 24, 2011, 04:40 PM
Most often its when I have to open his stride and move up - whether it be inside a line or for a bit of a longer distance - I sort of lose him in that rather then staying down and relaxed and opening his stride he puts his head up. I am not strong enough to really keep him together with my leg and hands when he does this.

In this case, I'd say that you have your answer right here. Sounds like the "real" fix is for you to get to the point where you ARE strong enough to keep him together and get him to push evenly from behind in a calm manner even when asking him to move up and open up his stride. :) I know, I know...easier said than done! I'd say this is something that you can, and should, work on without the use of a tack noseband. I think this is particularly true because you don't want to punish him for what sounds like a good faith effort to do what you've asked (move up), albeit with a little bit of undesirable editorial comment on his part in the form of an elevated head.

FWIW, I agree with PNWJumper that in the right situation, and in the right hands, there may be a time and place for a tack noseband. This doesn't sound like the time or place for it to me, but it does sound like it was a reasonable choice for PNWJumper's situation as described.

CBoylen
Mar. 24, 2011, 05:17 PM
You might want to see if it helps. No reason why you can't take it off again. If you have to "hold" him together to move up, it's likely not going to be a very pretty huntery picture, even if you CAN do it. Much better if he learns to carry himself without you trying to put him in a package.
Part of it, without seeing the horse, is likely that you need to be more subtle when asking him to move up, and make it a gradual increase. Another part may be that, in trying to package him and control his head carriage, you're sitting down to move up, and should instead be encouraging him to open his step by keeping a soft half seat and relaxing your hand. Hard to tell without seeing it, but you can probably decide if any of that applies to you.
To answer your original question, a tack noseband can be helpful in a few cases. One is with a loose martingale as a reminder not to raise up, another may be with or without a martingale, just to get a little more attention from a stronger or unfocused horse, or to help keep the mouth closed.

HuntrJumpr
Mar. 24, 2011, 05:23 PM
I may be wrong - and would love other's perspective on this - but could a chain noseband work in this instance? They've always seemed a bit more mild to me, but certainly have been effective for the few horses I've ridden with them.

Rio Blanco
Mar. 24, 2011, 05:30 PM
My exGP mare has gone in a chain noseband once or twice because she gapes so much that she has stretched out 3 of my bridles. Downside, when they're old and smart like her, they know when it's there and when it's not...

CBoylen
Mar. 24, 2011, 05:35 PM
Sure, a chain or a tack. There is really not that much difference in effect unless you get one of the tacks with newer, skinnier studs that aren't of much use because they are too abrupt. The older tack nosebands are rounder studs or rivets. If you are going to use it without the martingale I think then the tack is more effective, but not by a lot. It's only a slight matter of degree of pressure; you can weigh one against another by pressing them into your palm.

Dapple Dawn Farm
Mar. 24, 2011, 06:21 PM
mjhco...I'd hate to be your horse...:(

leelee
Mar. 24, 2011, 06:35 PM
mjhco...I'd hate to be your horse...:(

None of the examples mjhco gave were out of the question! Consider this: we, as humans, don't communicate with kicks and bites to one another (well, hopefully). Animals, on the other hand, do communicate this way. Perhaps it isn't so insane for us to give the horse a slap on the rear every now and again...nor is it abusive.

Goodness!

Big_Tag
Mar. 24, 2011, 07:30 PM
Yknow..I get what Dapple Dawn Farm is maybe getting at..there's certainly a fine line between "useful training aid" and "painful abuse" but let's be serious..they weigh 1000lbs. How much do you REALLY think a tack noseband hurts? It sounds like they hit it once or twice, say "no thanks" and stop doing it. I've never used one but there was a hunter rider in our barn who used it and this woman babied the LIFE out of her mare. I never saw any marks or any indication it hurt the mare and let me tell you..she was a sensitive pain in the can. Couldn't use a chain over her nose, and she let you know. She was fine w/ the tack noseband.

Flame suit zipped to my eyes (I bet I look like a ninja):

See this mare?
http://www.harnessracing.com/images/bin/499.jpg
See all the garb she has on her face? that's some leather fly mask that was sewed together at the bottom, and a standard fly mask. This mare couldn't STAND dirt in her face. Went sideways, up, galloped uncontrollably. When she was 3 she was so much better than everyone else that she just went to the front every race; if not one got in front of her she could catch no dirt in her face.
Between her 3 and 4 year old year, our trainer made it his top priority to teach her to "sit in a hole" (i.e., follow another horse). And as predicted, it initially went poorly. So..he fashioned a dog-chain tiedown for her. It was loosely fastened (i.e., she wouldn't hit it unless she reacted strongly to the dirt). He took her to the track, turned her for a training mile, stuck her behind a training partner. Her head went flip, up..and then she hit the chain, said "welp, outsmarted!" She learned to sit in a hole and guess what? by the time she trained down to be ready to race, didn't need her dogchain anymore. Sometimes you have to find a way to abruptly STOP the behavior so you CAN train them.

Do I think less "conventional" training methods are overused? Yes. Do I think they should therefore be discounted as inhumane and wrong? No.

Pixie0304
Mar. 24, 2011, 07:56 PM
anyone would have a picture of a tack noseband or chain noseband ?

sorry, i can't seem to find the translation in french :D
and cant seem to picture it either

is it a noseband with chain underneath?

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Mar. 24, 2011, 08:00 PM
It always AMAZES me how many people absolutely CRINGE at the thought of using a tack noseband on little Poopsie, but would gladly use a chain over the nose of an unruly horse, or use a spur to wake up a lazy one, or a nutcracker cribbing strap to stop a cribber, or an electric fence to contain one, or.... Not to mention all the HANDS one sees on a regular basis hitting poor Poopsie in the mouth every other stride, or the way some of the most saintly ponies are expected to happily cart little Sally around while she SLAMS down on his back every step, or YANKYANKYANKS him on the approach to every fence.

I've seen a number of tack/chain nosebands, and never once have I seen one that would injure a horse if used properly. The "tacks" are really quite flat and round, not the horrible SPIKES people make them out to be (wouldn't improve matters any to have a horse with blood running down its face while going around). Don't quote me on this, but having seen several in real life (not merely discussed on an internet forum), I imagine the name "tack noseband" comes from the old-fashioned metal thumb-push-pins because the "tacks" resemble the flat-ish, rounded end of those. Another comparison would be the studs on leather armchairs/couches. I'm sure that like all unconventional equipment, there are variations of such nosebands that are more barbaric. Those, however, are not the norm, and not the type to which I am referring.

I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that using a properly fitted tack noseband on a horse is any worse than using a chain over the nose on the ground (funny how we just had a thread on that recently, and only two or three posters in several pages chimed in to say they refused to use one EVER). Or how one can turn a horse out in a field with a HOT fence expecting them to learn through self-inflicted discomfort, but cry abuse at the thought of expecting the same result from a piece of tack?

Notice that no one here with any experience using one has touted it as a first, second, third... fifth??? resort? It's a rarely used piece of tack that has it's place in situations where all else has failed.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Mar. 24, 2011, 08:02 PM
anyone would have a picture of a tack noseband or chain noseband ?

sorry, i can't seem to find the translation in french :D
and cant seem to picture it either

is it a noseband with chain underneath?

Yes, a chain noseband has a small length of sewn to the inside of the top/front portion. A tack noseband has several small metal studs or "tacks" arranged in the same fashion.

kinnip
Mar. 24, 2011, 08:27 PM
Golly! I'd much rather use a "gadget" a couple of times to stop a behavior that is harmful to the horse and dangerous to the rider than pester the poor critter ad infinitum.

mbhorse
Mar. 24, 2011, 08:40 PM
I used to lease an A/A hunter that was an ex-steeplechase horse that went in one. It kept him from raising his head up the last few strides in front of the jumps. The one we used was not barbaric at all. It had about a half dozen round studs that were flat on the end, and we never cranked it tight.

DoubleTwistedWire
Mar. 24, 2011, 10:21 PM
anyone would have a picture of a tack noseband or chain noseband ?

is it a noseband with chain underneath?

Yes. There's an Edgewood one on eBay here:
http://compare.ebay.com/like/190510903639?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&rvr_id=220590586007&crlp=1_263602_309572&UA=M*F%3F&GUID=610fb6a611f0a0b584148be4ffeba0ba&itemid=190510903639&ff4=263602_309572

I'd much rather see one of these, done properly so it's essentially self-correcting and only comes in to play when necessary, then something like the crank nosebands you see in the dressage ring.

ponymom64
Mar. 24, 2011, 10:32 PM
It's pretty much a passive training tool, it doesn't come into play unless and until the horse exhibits the behavior it is designed to correct, much like a chambon.

I would much rather see a piece of equipment like this used to school a horse or pony than the constant hauling on their mouth, that might be the other way to correct the problem.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Mar. 24, 2011, 10:51 PM
I would much rather see a piece of equipment like this used to school a horse or pony than the constant hauling on their mouth, that might be the other way to correct the problem.

When I think about the average rider's ability to properly correct a problem that might be alleviated through the use of a tack noseband, it makes me think most horses would be better off left to "correct themselves" with passive-action tack than be put through the stress and confusion of an under-educated seat and hands in such a situation.

mbhorse
Mar. 24, 2011, 11:11 PM
When I think about the average rider's ability to properly correct a problem that might be alleviated through the use of a tack noseband, it makes me think most horses would be better off left to "correct themselves" with passive-action tack than be put through the stress and confusion of an under-educated seat and hands in such a situation.

FrenchFry, you nailed it :)