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Madeline
Mar. 23, 2011, 07:52 AM
That the same magazine printed Denny Emerson's article on how to NOT jump ahead of your horse the week after they published roughly 500 pictures of riders jumping ahead of their horses.
Maybe they should have been in the same issue...

2ndyrgal
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:08 AM
regretably, the "show hunters" of today have, with the exception of the hunter derbies, have no relation to riding a young or unproven horse over fences. You can bet that the people who start these horses over fences do not ride like that. It's ugly, it's not effective, it is however, in fashion, though I have no idea why. Well, actually, I do. The trainers drill the horses till they're almost like circus horses and all the riders have to do is lean and cling.

Everything I learned to ride on (back when all bridles had flat, unadorned leather nosebands and all saddles were hard as bricks) would have unceremoniously dumped me on my face had I approached a fence like that.

I'm glad they put Denny's article in there.

Note to GM, you should have never started the crest release, you should have just taken their reins away till they learned how to use them.

Trixie
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:13 AM
The trainers drill the horses till they're almost like circus horses and all the riders have to do is lean and cling.

Everything I learned to ride on (back when all bridles had flat, unadorned leather nosebands and all saddles were hard as bricks) would have unceremoniously dumped me on my face had I approached a fence like that.

Lord have mercy, are we seriously getting into this again?

monstrpony
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:19 AM
I don't have a dog in this fight, at all; haven't jumped in over 10 years. But I am curious about one thing--since the hunters value the horse using it's front end & shoulder well, and overjumping--then why do they also favor a riding style that seems to be designed to flatten the horse's front end? Does it somehow enhance the horse's jump to be ridden this way? Is there any advantage to it? Or is it really just an unfortunate artifact?

Trixie
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:23 AM
FWIW, though, I'm pretty well grateful that my horse doesn't "unceremoniously dump me on my face" if I make a mistake. His job is to take care of me out there - since I'm pretty sure an important quality of a lady's amateur hunter is still MANNERS. My trainer has been on him exactly three times, though.

Why do we always forget hunters is judged on the horse, regardless of what the rider is doing? What wins is the horse who had the best course of that day. If that horse has a monkey on his back, it doesn't actually matter as long as the monkey paid all the appropriate USEF fees and is wearing an ASTM-approved helmet.

Tap2Tango
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:28 AM
Lord have mercy, are we seriously getting into this again?

Do you think she would actually let this subject die off??? How many times can we hear, "Well back in my day..." :rolleyes:

magnolia73
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:33 AM
It's funny that hunters in general look like they jump pretty safe and cute despite their riders overly generous crest released and ducking.

To be certain, nobody thinks it is a good idea to to a light half seat and giant crest release to a down hill log.

And I have had the privilege of riding with Denny and many really awesome eventers, but they are preparing their riders to do something much different than produce a flowing hunter ride. The whole idea there is to get some speed, then come back and repackage to jump.

LookmaNohands
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:50 AM
Do you think she would actually let this subject die off??? How many times can we hear, "Well back in my day..." :rolleyes:


Good riding is good riding. It has nothing to do with "back in my day."

If all those riders in the show pictures had to jump a downhill bounce they would all fall off unless they took Denny's advice. But they aren't jumping downhill bounces they are in a show ring. Two different things.

Denny is right though--again!

Tap2Tango
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:56 AM
Good riding is good riding. It has nothing to do with "back in my day."

If all those riders in the show pictures had to jump a downhill bounce they would all fall off unless they took Denny's advice. But they aren't jumping downhill bounces they are in a show ring. Two different things.

Denny is right though--again!

You must not be familiar with the OP...She is constantly bringing up topics about hunters then when people disagree with her she starts to go on about how hunters were back in the day. Gets old after awhile...

CBoylen
Mar. 23, 2011, 01:06 PM
regretably, the "show hunters" of today have, with the exception of the hunter derbies, have no relation to riding a young or unproven horse over fences. You can bet that the people who start these horses over fences do not ride like that..
Why would you assume that horses would be trained by riding them differently than they're meant to go when they're made up?


Everything I learned to ride on (back when all bridles had flat, unadorned leather nosebands and all saddles were hard as bricks) would have unceremoniously dumped me on my face had I approached a fence like that.
.
Which is why you wouldn't want to train a hunter to the override, and then have to retrain it to a ride acceptable for the showring.

2ndyrgal
Mar. 23, 2011, 01:16 PM
That says it all right there.

Because if you point a baby at a fence in a light half seat with your hands under your chest and your shoulders sticking out, when he stops, chips or spins you're coming off.

I don't care if it's "back in the day" or yesterday, it's wrong, it's ugly and it just lends more ammunition to the camp that thinks a great many riders on really nicely trained horses would have a hell of a bad day on one that was a beautiful mover and jumper, but hardly point and shoot.

I guess if laying on a horse's neck while he jumps around and only sitting up for lead changes is your cup of tea, then fine, but don't pretend it's anything other than that. Someone posted on one of these forums a video of a rider, bareback, doing a puissance fence. Her equitation was wonderful and effective.

Good eq should be easy over anything lower than 3'6" and I'd think it was essential over that. But the rails fall and the ground's flat and trigger has his 6 figure knees up to his eyeballs, and the judges never seem to hear all the rubs....

Don't get me started on the number of them wearing bar shoes on front.

Thoroughbred1201
Mar. 23, 2011, 01:30 PM
I don't care if it's "back in the day" or yesterday, it's wrong, it's ugly and it just lends more ammunition to the camp that thinks a great many riders on really nicely trained horses would have a hell of a bad day on one that was a beautiful mover and jumper, but hardly point and shoot.

I guess if laying on a horse's neck while he jumps around and only sitting up for lead changes is your cup of tea, then fine, but don't pretend it's anything other than that. .


Amen.

It got started by trainers trying to show how much their horse cracks it's back and jumps them loose. "See how great he jumps?!? I just can't stay with him!" Now, all the kids and amateurs copy like lemings . . .

Trixie
Mar. 23, 2011, 01:48 PM
Because if you point a baby at a fence in a light half seat with your hands under your chest and your shoulders sticking out, when he stops, chips or spins you're coming off.

Um, a hunter round doesn't have anything to do with the ride that someone would give a greenie baby that stops and spins. The horses that are winning are not greenie babies that are stopping and spinning.

FWIW, though, it is entirely possible to ride a greenie in a light half seat successfully – a light half seat should not mean that you are on any level out of balance.

With that said, you don’t want a hunter who is reliant on being “overridden.” The goal here is for everything to be – and to look – as smooth and as soft as possible. They should be trained to be soft and responsive to light pressure. They should not stop dirty if the rider is imperfect (awful manners), and there’s no way in hell that would fly in the hunt field, either, where there are times when people aren't 100% balanced.

I've had the opportunity to sit on some very well known show hunters and I have found that they are generally light, responsive, and pleasant - a real joy to ride.

SillyHorse
Mar. 23, 2011, 01:53 PM
Amen.

It got started by trainers trying to show how much their horse cracks it's back and jumps them loose. "See how great he jumps?!? I just can't stay with him!" Now, all the kids and amateurs copy like lemings . . .
Am I incorrect in thinking that a hunter is judged on its way of going and how it would be to ride in the hunt field? Why is cracking its back and jumping its rider loose desirable in the show ring?

Thoroughbred1201
Mar. 23, 2011, 02:50 PM
Am I incorrect in thinking that a hunter is judged on its way of going and how it would be to ride in the hunt field? Why is cracking its back and jumping its rider loose desirable in the show ring?

No, you are correct. That is the rule. But the reality is that the roundest, loftiest jump and the best movements is what wins. And that no longer has any bearing on the hunt field at all. And with all the lovely, big moving, big jumping horses these days, trainers have to do whatever they can to point out how much better their horse is.

The other thing that was brought up was the crest release. As George Morris has pointed out, that release, meant for beginners, has destroyed classic position. It's almost impossible to have a correct position over a bigger jump with a lofty horse and a crest release.

dags
Mar. 23, 2011, 02:51 PM
Today we have show hunters & field hunters, and never the twain shall meet again.

Other than that, I don't know what the OP wants. Eliminate Denny's ariticle? Or perhaps exclude all 500 winners from having their picture in COTH? There is no solution when approached in this manner, and I believe that's why a few are quite over the pointless tirades.

supershorty628
Mar. 23, 2011, 02:59 PM
The other thing that was brought up was the crest release. As George Morris has pointed out, that release, meant for beginners, has destroyed classic position. It's almost impossible to have a correct position over a bigger jump with a lofty horse and a crest release.

There are a lot of top jumper riders who do the crest release (Mclain Ward, for one). I hardly think it is impossible to have a correct position with it.

The crest release and a bastardized version of it are two completely different things.

Carry on... anyone want popcorn?

2ndyrgal
Mar. 23, 2011, 03:03 PM
I'm saying that there is absolutely no reason for a hunter rider over fences to "pose" all the way up their horse's neck with their arse sticking up and their hands jammed into the horse's neck, it doesn't make them "with" the horse, it makes them look like the worst kind of passenger. And if something does happen, and eventually, it will, they have no base of support to overcome it, unless God's watching, they're coming off, at best, a bruised dignity, at worst? Well, I've seen it, and it isn't pretty. In a light half seat, your shoulders should only be slightly ahead of your knees, and just like doing a jacknife off the diving board, you let the thrust of the motion close your hip angle, you do not throw your shoulders out into space or you'll end up face first. Water or dirt, same result. There is absolutely no argument FOR this position, it produces no more flowing round than when GM rides with perfect form over fences, it is simply laziness and greed on the part of trainers who get big$$ for made horses because they haven't taken the time to teach their students how to actually ride correctly.

Madeline
Mar. 23, 2011, 03:32 PM
You must not be familiar with the OP...She is constantly bringing up topics about hunters then when people disagree with her she starts to go on about how hunters were back in the day. Gets old after awhile...

Did I say anything about "back in the day?" Or hunters, even?

I just commented on what I thought was an odd editorial choice. Kinda like running one issue with 500 pictures of Hummers and following up with a thoughtful article on fuel efficiency.

Sheesh. Am I not allowed any opinions?

Aerial
Mar. 23, 2011, 03:40 PM
Yeah you did actually. You mentioned how if back when you rode in less-than-cushy tack and you did that to your horse he would've dumped you on your face

Kryswyn
Mar. 23, 2011, 03:41 PM
I knew a great trainer whose touch was majikal. He was a one in a million horseman. Which is why many of the best horses he trained went nowhere, because the one thing he couldn't teach them was how to take a joke. Because he rode every fence soft, light, and balanced.

That the 500 horses pictured won year end awards with people laying all over them (allegedly, I haven't seen the issue) I think is a tribute to the horses.

supershorty628
Mar. 23, 2011, 03:42 PM
Yeah you did actually. You mentioned how if back when you rode in less-than-cushy tack and you did that to your horse he would've dumped you on your face

No, to be fair, that was the second poster, 2ndyrgal.

magnolia73
Mar. 23, 2011, 03:43 PM
It's an over-correction more than anything since the cardinal rule of hunters is not to catch your horse in the mouth or give too stingey of a release.

Bottom line, I watch a class of crappy 2'6 hunter riders and yes, maybe the riders look like hell, but the horses are relaxed and happy looking about the situation. I wish I could say that about other disciplines where jumping ahead is the cardinal sin. Many, many people love to swear up and down their superiority to the inferior hunter as they have a fantastic autorelease...only to find out they actually stiff their horse 9 times out of 10 who deals with by getting tense, jumping like a llama or many other lovely forms.

Most of us suck, have poor balance and have saints of horses who tolerate either jumping ahead or being caught in the face.

And if the hunter way so frequently leads to falls and other drama.... then why do I see people have an awful lot of stops and run outs yet stay on the horse? Yes, they probably would be dead at an event and well, a lot of those eventers would be dead too if we took away their mikmar ultra combo that they have a death grip on the whole way through XC that keeps Dobbin from heading three counties over since he is so damn tense about jumping because of the number of times his poor face has been grabbed (more commonly known as he "loves" to jump).

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 23, 2011, 03:46 PM
It's an over-correction more than anything since the cardinal rule of hunters is not to catch your horse in the mouth or give too stingey of a release.

Bottom line, I watch a class of crappy 2'6 hunter riders and yes, maybe the riders look like hell, but the horses are relaxed and happy looking about the situation. I wish I could say that about other disciplines where jumping ahead is the cardinal sin. Many, many people love to swear up and down their superiority to the inferior hunter as they have a fantastic autorelease...only to find out they actually stiff their horse 9 times out of 10 who deals with by getting tense, jumping like a llama or many other lovely forms.

Most of us suck, have poor balance and have saints of horses who tolerate either jumping ahead or being caught in the face.

And if the hunter way so frequently leads to falls and other drama.... then why do I see people have an awful lot of stops and run outs yet stay on the horse? Yes, they probably would be dead at an event and well, a lot of those eventers would be dead too if we took away their mikmar ultra combo that they have a death grip on the whole way through XC that keeps Dobbin from heading three counties over since he is so damn tense about jumping because of the number of times his poor face has been grabbed (more commonly known as he "loves" to jump).

:lol:

You're my hero today. I love it.

I don't know why everyone gets so snippy about other peoples' riding. As long as the horse is relaxed and happy (which they must be if they are the ones winning) who cares? If I want to leap up my horse's neck and click my heels over his butt over every fence it's my business, not yours. :p

Thoroughbred1201
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:07 PM
It's an over-correction more than anything since the cardinal rule of hunters is not to catch your horse in the mouth or give too stingey of a release.

Yes, they probably would be dead at an event and well, a lot of those eventers would be dead too if we took away their mikmar ultra combo that they have a death grip on the whole way through XC that keeps Dobbin from heading three counties over since he is so damn tense about jumping because of the number of times his poor face has been grabbed (more commonly known as he "loves" to jump).


It's interesting you bring up eventing. I'd always felt exactly the same way.

But recently I was at a Hunter schooling show. Several very nice horses and riders. And an eventing trainer who's kids didn't know the first thing about hunters. And you know what? Those eventing kids rode the socks off the hunter kids. They were tight as ticks, rode their horses well, knew how to balance them and ride to a distance.

It was really interesting to see them go down the line away from us, and not a single one of them dropped their shoulder. Every single hunter kid, including the 3'6" kids, dropped their should the last stride.

In the adult equ class? An eventer on a green TB, smoked the course. The judge (a carded judge) looked at me, and said 'she's equetating the h**l out of this course', and she was right. We told her that her horse should be a medal horse. He was green, but jumped beautifully and was incredibly scopy.

It was really clear: the eventing riders outrode the H/Js on their own turf. But I guess it isn't surprising: the eventers have improved while the H/Js have dropped to the lowest common denominator. And I'm incredibly sad about that fact.

True horsemanship is form following function.

Trixie
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:11 PM
It was really clear: the eventing riders can outride the H/Js on their own turf. But I guess it isn't surprising: the eventers have improved while the H/Js have dropped to the lowest common denominator. And I'm incredibly sad about that fact.

One horse show is not exactly factual evidence that eventing riders "can outride the H/Js on their own turf."

A good rider is a good rider is a good rider. I've seen outstanding riders and really crappy riders from both disciplines and I certainly wouldn't go about making blanket statements about how one is better than the other, especially not based on one schooling show. :rolleyes:

Dramapony_misty
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:13 PM
I don't ride hunters, but I would think that it should be a rider's pride as a horseperson. Your eq may not be perfect, but try to give the best ride you can to make your horse go the best you can. Yes, things happen where some jump ahead...others get left behind... but gosh! Don't do it on purpose!

If you have the talent to ride a horse well enough to win some big class, flaunt it and ride WELL! Don't look like you suck just to show that "oh look! Dobbin can still be pretty even if I'm one step away from eating dirt." It's like the smart girl who thinks she needs to dumb herself down to get the cute guy. Have some pride in yourself!

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:16 PM
It was really clear: the eventing riders can outride the H/Js on their own turf. But I guess it isn't surprising: the eventers have improved while the H/Js have dropped to the lowest common denominator. And I'm incredibly sad about that fact.



If this is true then can you please explain why the US Jumping Team has managed to bring back team gold at the last 2 Olympics, while the US Eventing Team has only managed to trip over themselves for the last decade?

I love how these discussions always turn into Eventers rule and H/Jers Drool. :rolleyes:

Trixie
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:20 PM
Don't do it on purpose!

If you have the talent to ride a horse well enough to win some big class, flaunt it and ride WELL! Don't look like you suck just to show that "oh look! Dobbin can still be pretty even if I'm one step away from eating dirt." It's like the smart girl who thinks she needs to dumb herself down to get the cute guy. Have some pride in yourself!

Out of curiousity, do you really think people are riding like they "suck" on purpose? :confused:

Thoroughbred1201
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:20 PM
One horse show is not exactly factual evidence that eventing riders "can outride the H/Js on their own turf."

A good rider is a good rider is a good rider. I've seen outstanding riders and really crappy riders from both disciplines and I certainly wouldn't go about making blanket statements about how one is better than the other, especially not based on one schooling show. :rolleyes:


Very true. There have always been good riders in each, and you can't make blanket statements.

But I've got to tell you, in 40 years of going to shows - both A circuit and local -I can't begin to tell you how different this was. And it wasn't like the hunter kids were bad riders, either. They were quite good. But this particular event trainer really knew her stuff, and her kids will win anywhere - equ class or event.

Thoroughbred1201
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:24 PM
If this is true then can you please explain why the US Jumping Team has managed to bring back team gold at the last 2 Olympics, while the US Eventing Team has only managed to trip over themselves for the last decade?

I love how these discussions always turn into Eventers rule and H/Jers Drool. :rolleyes:


If you knew me, you'd understand how unthinkable the statement I made is. I've never had a lot of respect for eventers. I've always thought they were seat-of-the-pants, jack of all trades-master of none. I've always ridden h/j, and never wanted to do anything else. And what I was watching wasn't top level. That's another animal completely. We've been talking about the under 3'6" crowd.

Personally, I don't think it's the disicipline - I think its the teaching. The eventing pros are going towards more focus on technique. And, as this thread stated, the hunters are going for less. I just happened to see the results of it at one small show, and it was pretty incredible to watch.

Couture TB
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:28 PM
If this is true then can you please explain why the US Jumping Team has managed to bring back team gold at the last 2 Olympics, while the US Eventing Team has only managed to trip over themselves for the last decade?

I love how these discussions always turn into Eventers rule and H/Jers Drool. :rolleyes:

Debating on if I should touch this quote but oh well it is a snow day up by me :lol: I wouldn't say that Eventing has managed to trip over themselves. Jumpers and Eventers are different sports. Honestly it is easier to go to competitions to compete against the best for the Jumpers, IMO, due to the amount of shows. The US only has one **** event in all of the US, which is bigger then most of Europe, and they are much more Eventing geared over there. Kinda like they don't do Hunters there. They do Jumpers and Eventing for over fences.

Trixie
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:28 PM
But I've got to tell you, in 40 years of going to shows - both A circuit and local -I can't begin to tell you how different this was. And it wasn't like the hunter kids were bad riders, either. They were quite good. But this particular event trainer really knew her stuff, and her kids will win anywhere - equ class or event.

But that's not because H/J riders all suck and have dropped to the lowest common denomenator, it's because this particular eventing trainer is a good trainer and her kids rode nice courses. Remember, the basics of both sports are the same and any good rider from either sport should be able to complete a basic hunter or equitation course correctly.

Really, there's bad everywhere. I've seen just as much scary-bad eventing riders as I have H/J, they certainly don't smoke em every time out. I certainly wouldn't hold out one group of kids at a schooling show to speak for the sport.

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:34 PM
Debating on if I should touch this quote but oh well it is a snow day up by me :lol: I wouldn't say that Eventing has managed to trip over themselves. Jumpers and Eventers are different sports. Honestly it is easier to go to competitions to compete against the best for the Jumpers, IMO, due to the amount of shows. The US only has one **** event in all of the US, which is bigger then most of Europe, and they are much more Eventing geared over there. Kinda like they don't do Hunters there. They do Jumpers and Eventing for over fences.

And yet, somehow, even with our horrible hunter riders, the US has managed to beat Europe in Show Jumping pretty soundly in the last 10 years.

Eventing? Not so much.

You can make all the excuses in the world, but the results speak for themselves.

Not that it really matters except that I think people should be more careful when proclaiming eventers' superiority.

Couture TB
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:38 PM
And yet, somehow, even with our horrible hunter riders, the US has managed to beat Europe in Show Jumping pretty soundly in the last 10 years.

Eventing? Not so much.

You can make all the excuses in the world, but the results speak for themselves.

Not that it really matters except that I think people should be more careful when proclaiming eventers' superiority.

Did I say anything about horrible hunter riders? All I said was that the US does not lend itself to the ability to compete against other countries eventers as much as the European countries do.

meupatdoes
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:40 PM
That says it all right there.

Because if you point a baby at a fence in a light half seat with your hands under your chest and your shoulders sticking out, when he stops, chips or spins you're coming off.


Maybe you would come off, but not everybody has to be laid out in the back seat with their feet on the dashboard to stay on a horse that does something sudden.

Thoroughbred1201
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:41 PM
All I can reiterate was that it was sense of what I was watching. It was a sense of technique, and riding forward, and getting the job done with style and class. Everything we push in the H/J world, and that I didn't see a lot of in the eventing world in the past.

There are good and bad in each discipline, and I don't 'hate' either one. both have their place. But horsemanship is horsemanship, and the day-to-day work and the spit-and-polish show. And I saw it in one discipline that day, and not in another. And I'd never seen it so clear-cut before, and certainly hope never to again. It wasn't flattering.

Both the judge (again, carded judge) and I were commenting on it. She felt the same way I did.

Aerial
Mar. 23, 2011, 05:47 PM
No, to be fair, that was the second poster, 2ndyrgal.

Whoops, my bad! OP, my apologies. show's how awake I am today.

Dramapony_misty
Mar. 23, 2011, 06:00 PM
Out of curiousity, do you really think people are riding like they "suck" on purpose? :confused:

When I see "congratulations" ads with beautiful horses and adult riders up on the horses' necks, ducking off to the side and looking down to make sure they are really clearing the fence? Yes, yes I do.

I'm certainly not taking away from the great riders who look up where they are going (basic principle of riding for all disciplines) and in good balance.

Trixie
Mar. 23, 2011, 06:06 PM
When I see "congratulations" ads with beautiful horses and adult riders up on the horses' necks, ducking off to the side and looking down to make sure they are really clearing the fence? Yes, yes I do.

That seems a bit harsh. I just assume that they're proud of their horses but nobody's perfect.

I know I wouldn't take a horse that costs roughly about as much as my house into the ring planning to deliberately ride as if I suck. Maybe that's just me.

Madeline
Mar. 23, 2011, 06:32 PM
If this is true then can you please explain why the US Jumping Team has managed to bring back team gold at the last 2 Olympics, while the US Eventing Team has only managed to trip over themselves for the last decade?



Would it be too obvious to point out that the US Jumping team is made up of jumper riders, not hunter riders?
Sure, they may have started on hunters, but they've moved on.

Couture TB
Mar. 23, 2011, 06:32 PM
Tell you what how about everyone on here posts pictures of themselves jumping and we can pick ourselves and each other apart.

I will start. I seem to always have a slightly loose lower leg and tend to jump ahead of my horse. My back is darn near always roached.

http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/MattsonTraining/?action=view&current=Absolutevertical4-1.jpg

http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/MattsonTraining/Podesta/?action=view&current=ChaseCreek3DayEvent-2000-CrossCo-9.jpg

http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/MattsonTraining/?action=view&current=AbsoluteJumping1.jpg

And tell you what for sh**s and giggles here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mb4m1QNbqA

Oh and the show pictures were put in ads as that horse pinned for Horse of The Year at that level.

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 23, 2011, 06:43 PM
Would it be too obvious to point out that the US Jumping team is made up of jumper riders, not hunter riders?
Sure, they may have started on hunters, but they've moved on.

But they did build their foundation in the hunters. ;)

Look, I'm not saying that the praying mantis look is pretty or desirable or the image of good riding, I'm just saying that there is a lot more to a good rider than the ability have perfect equitation in the air. A lot of those riders are still learning. Why begrudge them that? Or are you so perfect that you've never once leaned up the neck?

Somebody earlier said form follows function. And I agree. And since the pictures in question were of Zone winners, I would say that they are at least moderately functional. No matter how much you dislike their way of getting it done.

CBoylen
Mar. 23, 2011, 06:46 PM
Because if you point a baby at a fence in a light half seat with your hands under your chest and your shoulders sticking out, when he stops, chips or spins you're coming off.
It's entirely possible to ride in a light half seat to the jump, keep your shoulders back, and still do a crest release. You can't tell that from a still picture. We don't start the babies any differently than we ride the show horses, because that would be counterproductive. Most of us manage to stay on most of the time. But when staying on is the main concern, then you're entirely missing the point.

ynl063w
Mar. 23, 2011, 06:50 PM
This thread reminded me of a recent issue of COTH that gave me a chuckle. I dug it out - it's the February 21st issue.

On page 18, there is a letter written by a reader who included a picture of herself from the mid 70s jumping a tiny log jump at a hunter pace. She congratulates herself on her beautiful equitation and bemoans the form of today's riders while pointing out that none of the top professionals of her time would ever "lie on their horses' necks over top of a jump".

I turned the page and laughed out loud, because there on page 20 is a picture of Rodney Jenkins riding the green conformation hunter champion at Harrisburg in 1970. Guess what? He is using a very long crest release, his fingers are open, he's ducking to the left, and his backside is waayyyy out of the saddle (parallel to his shoulders). He is quoted as saying, "in my opinion, to ride a jumper well you had to ride a hunter too".

All of you who constantly come on this forum and imply that you know more about how to ride a hunter than the top professionals do are seriously misguided.

Thoroughbred1201
Mar. 23, 2011, 07:31 PM
Look, I'm not saying that the praying mantis look is pretty or desirable or the image of good riding,.

LOL! Love it. That's a perfect description.

Flashy Gray VA
Mar. 23, 2011, 07:46 PM
I turned the page and laughed out loud, because there on page 20 is a picture of Rodney Jenkins riding the green conformation hunter champion at Harrisburg in 1970. Guess what? He is using a very long crest release, his fingers are open, he's ducking to the left, and his backside is waayyyy out of the saddle (parallel to his shoulders). He is quoted as saying, "in my opinion, to ride a jumper well you had to ride a hunter too".

God.

Bless.

Rodney Jenkins!!! And God bless his "awful" crest release!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

FYI Rodney had a nice filly named Dream come in 3rd in last weekend's Gr. III Cicada Stakes at Aqueduct. :)

MHM
Mar. 23, 2011, 09:25 PM
God.

Bless.

Rodney Jenkins!!! And God bless his "awful" crest release!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

FYI Rodney had a nice filly named Dream come in 3rd in last weekend's Gr. III Cicada Stakes at Aqueduct. :)

I still miss seeing Rodney at the shows!

I'm glad he's doing well with the racehorses, but I miss him.

RugBug
Mar. 23, 2011, 09:34 PM
Tell you what how about everyone on here posts pictures of themselves jumping and we can pick ourselves and each other apart.
.

Paging Trixie. We need some proof that hunter riders are all over the place. Are you willing to supply it? :winkgrin:

Couture...your horse looks nice and honest. I can tell you that my hunter would kill you if you tried to ride him like that. In the very least...he'd be a stopper in about 2 weeks.

Look, the point with hunters is to get the best (hunter-style) jump each and every time. The horses don't seem to mind how they're being ridden if they are jumping like they do each time. Do you really think if they would jump better with the rider in the rumble seat that it wouldn't be the fashion?

SnicklefritzG
Mar. 23, 2011, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
Look, I'm not saying that the praying mantis look is pretty or desirable or the image of good riding,.


LOL! Love it. That's a perfect description.



I'd like to see Zorak in the ring::winkgrin:

Macchiato4
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:06 PM
And if the hunter way so frequently leads to falls and other drama.... then why do I see people have an awful lot of stops and run outs yet stay on the horse? Yes, they probably would be dead at an event and well, a lot of those eventers would be dead too if we took away their mikmar ultra combo that they have a death grip on the whole way through XC that keeps Dobbin from heading three counties over since he is so damn tense about jumping because of the number of times his poor face has been grabbed (more commonly known as he "loves" to jump).


Wow, how mature of you to stereotype and bash another discipline that you most likely have no clue about. :no:

magnolia73
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:19 PM
Actually, I've ridden with some very good eventers who ride beautifully. I've also ridden some with horses who jump with consistent dangerous form who "auto release"(or claim to) over every jump while using big bits. I've ridden with awesome hunter riders who event and hunt and can ride XC. I've also ridden with some who ride like shit.

And I've actually taken a lesson or two with Denny who is awesome and very good at getting you into a secure position.

Couture TB
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:34 PM
Paging Trixie. We need some proof that hunter riders are all over the place. Are you willing to supply it? :winkgrin:

Couture...your horse looks nice and honest. I can tell you that my hunter would kill you if you tried to ride him like that. In the very least...he'd be a stopper in about 2 weeks.

Look, the point with hunters is to get the best (hunter-style) jump each and every time. The horses don't seem to mind how they're being ridden if they are jumping like they do each time. Do you really think if they would jump better with the rider in the rumble seat that it wouldn't be the fashion?

Hehe he was not an easy ride. :lol: But he is the horse I did Prelim Eventing on, schooled Advanced, and did a couple mini Prixs with. The black one that is. The other one I posted the 'little' over jump just for giggles.

Though I must ask why your horse would be a stopper in 2 weeks? Over the last 15 years I have taken horses that are dirty stoppers XC to them packing around pc students.

RugBug
Mar. 23, 2011, 10:48 PM
Though I must ask why your horse would be a stopper in 2 weeks? Over the last 15 years I have taken horses that are dirty stoppers XC to them packing around pc students.

You're fast and busy with your body, upright and then throw your shoulders at the neck, while throwing your hand up in an exagerrated long crest release and bring them back quickly on landing, almost snatching. You also hold to the base and then throw him away. He'd get you for that left leg (like your horse does at about 1:10). I've got a similar left leg and man, does he take advantage if I'm not down in it the way I should be.

Now, I'm not saying you couldn't get him around a course...but it wouldn't be hunter pretty and after a while he'd start stopping. He won't tolerate all that riding. He wants to be left alone 98% of the time. Half halt to the jump, half halt on landing, keep your inside leg on to keep that left shoulder out and steer. If he's tentative, close your leg just a bit. That's his ride.

BTW... I love that your horse's name is Pest. so cute.

Couture TB
Mar. 23, 2011, 11:01 PM
Yup I agree with you on the ride. Due to past training before I got him if you didn't ride with very very short reins he would bolt like a bat out of hell, hence the very exagerated release (heck I wouldn't call it a crest release, I call it get out of his face then bring the sucker back :lol:) And yes, the left leg is a work in progress as it was shattered and I lost most feeling in it. Ducking, he broke my nose a few times before I learned to duck to the side :lol: Funny thing is if you rode him anyway else you would be very sore and you would be lucky if that was all.

And I beyond agree that if you rode a horse that wanted to be left alone most of the time then that would create a problem. But as I always say give the horse the ride it needs. :) And thank your for the critique. Funny thing is we agree :lol:

The horse that over jumped the little jump was a lot like your guy. Leave me alone. Sometimes give a little half halt. Other then that leave him alone and he would give you a slow honest ride all the time. He was very fun to train. Brought him along from halter broke to 3'6. Actually trying to locate him to buy him back.

RugBug
Mar. 23, 2011, 11:21 PM
And I beyond agree that if you rode a horse that wanted to be left alone most of the time then that would create a problem. But as I always say give the horse the ride it needs. :) And thank your for the critique. Funny thing is we agree :lol:

So, for "turn about" purposes...

Photo #1 (http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g14/slorugbug/Orion/OandRolltopturn.jpg)

Photo #2 (http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g14/slorugbug/Orion/OrionXC5-10-09.jpg)

Photo #3 (http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g14/slorugbug/Orion/Orion1.jpg)

This was in PH. (http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g14/slorugbug/horse%20stuff/Showsmaller.jpg)GM dinged me for my set hand..and my tense expression. I can't argue. Ha!

And lastly, the TB (http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g14/slorugbug/Elf/Nottobad.jpg)I'm still learning how to leave alone. I wasn't leaving him alone in this shot and he's paying me back my getting quick, flat and twisting.

But in the end, your comment of "give the horse the ride it needs" is all that hunters are doing. They want the easiest ride possible, with the horse doing as much as possible. We want to be able to leave them alone. Get them to where they need to be and then do nothing. If the horse still jumps well and carries on with the rider doing the mambo up there, so what?

I wish Trixie would post a picture or two. She jumps the bigger stuff and has LOVELY equitation to boot.

allison finch
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:00 AM
I don't like todays crest releases at all. I dislike how riders use it to "prop" themselves using the horse's necks. Many have totally lost how to use their lower legs to counter balance their upper bodies.

When I ride jumpers, I try to use an auto release

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w162/allisonfinch_photos/Abjump1.jpg

I do use a form of crest release, but not to use as a prop

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w162/allisonfinch_photos/w-WOOT.jpg

And, gee, I event too. It is not one discipline against the other. It is just good basic horsemanship. Sadly, I think that many in todays hunter ring are just plain losing some good basic techniques.

SnicklefritzG
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:20 AM
Regardless of the jumping style that the top hunters horses have, I too dislike the way the some pro riders look when they are perching on the horse's neck. Being slightly forward is one thing, but practically laying on the horse's neck is another. The forced look of "hey look what my horse can do" is unappealing. Let the horse's form speak for itself.

RugBug
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:35 AM
The forced look of "hey look what my horse can do" is unappealing. Let the horse's form speak for itself.

After watching some of the tops ride...not looking at stills but seeing videos of them...I really don't think there as much of the "OMG, my horse jumps so hard I can't stay in the tack" histrionics as people would have you believe. I think the pros are just riding the horse under them...staying soft, doing what it takes to get the best round.

I challenge anyone to go watch a lot of videos of these pros and see what you think.

SnicklefritzG
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:50 AM
^^ A lot of us already did before making our respective comments.

Prime Time Rider
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:57 AM
A point I think many of these posts have missed is that hunter riders (show ring, not fox hunters) typically ride in an arena that is perfectly flat with no slope. An artificial environment. How many show hunter riders out there have ever hacked (much less jumped) their horse XC? I think that's why the eventer riders exhibit a much tighter position; try jumping up on the horse's neck while jumping down a ditch or bank!

SnicklefritzG
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:59 AM
^^ Exactly. I doubt people in the hunt field would perch like that. If you did it on X-C at a big event, it could be bad news...

magnolia73
Mar. 24, 2011, 08:20 AM
How many show hunter riders out there have ever hacked (much less jumped) their horse XC? I think that's why the eventer riders exhibit a much tighter position; try jumping up on the horse's neck while jumping down a ditch or bank!


A lot more than you think.

I do think the issue is in the learning curve. We should all stay balanced over our leg with our hand allowing the horse full freedom to use his neck as a balancing gesture. We are not all balanced over our leg. In hunters, you must give a good release to get a good looking jump and keep some flow. In eventing and jumpers, you need to land ready to communicate. When we err, hunters err on the side of throwing away and jumpers and eventers often err on a stingey or non-existent release.

Unfortunately if you do that on a hunter it looks ugly. Do it on a jumper or XC and it does not matter, plus you can make that turn.

The other difference in hunters is that you need to flow around the course. The two steps in front of the jump need to look like the steps in the turns, on the long sides- you can't be extending, collecting, making big half halts here and there. You shouldn't be sitting up and making big changes in front of the jump. You are supposed to be sitting light and flowing to the jump.

So we all have different jobs and have developed different styles. It really is OK as long as the horses are happy,

meupatdoes
Mar. 24, 2011, 08:38 AM
How many show hunter riders out there have ever hacked (much less jumped) their horse XC?

How many show hunter riders have you met IRL?

T. Whitehead used to hack to the Old Salem shows from Baxter Road; if he had to jump a stone wall on the way he jumped it.

Growing up riding at Coker Farm there were huge grass fields (several of them on a notable slope, btw) with solid XC fences sprinkled among the equitation jumps. Summers were spent riding on grass on the hill, not in a perfectly manicured arena where all the jumps fell down. Pretty much all cooling out was done on the trails in the woods behind the fields. Trainer would get on her bike to head back to the barn and we would slip off into the trees to cool out in the shade.

We would also go do hunter trials where you jumped from field to field over stone walls etc etc and the judges evaluated your ride from tree stands. Still have the picture on the piano; the only thing that differentiates it from a typical eventing photo is the horse's braids, the rider's flat back and the navy blue coat.


But what do I know.
Obviously I have never so much as hacked (much less jumped) my horse outside.
I just love reading about all these things I've apparently never done.

Everythingbutwings
Mar. 24, 2011, 08:55 AM
adult riders up on the horses' necks, ducking off to the side and looking down to make sure they are really clearing the fence?

Dramapony, that's where you are mistaken. They are looking for a place to puke where it won't splash up on their boots. Cause they suck so, right? :winkgrin:

2ndyrgal
Mar. 24, 2011, 09:15 AM
It sounds from your post like you aren't from the last 10 years of show hunters and that's who we're talking about. I grew up "back when" where there were similar conditions. If you're younger than 40, I apologize, if not, then probably none of this post applies to you.

I thought it was interesting that someone linked the photo of Rodney Jenkins from the 70's. If memory serves, it was a pretty big fence. I don't think there was much under 3'6 to jump at all, and lots of the stuff was fence types that are just now starting to return in the hunter derbies. Which came into existance because a) they can justify prize money, and b) outside-diagonal-outside-diagonal, is a lot of time, boring. My picking is mostly on the legions of young riders and AA types that haven't developed a "style", they just brace themselves on the neck because that's what they were taught from the begining.

The horses in the pictures are not all spectacular, but they're all honest, the best trait a horse can have in my mind.

And to the trainers that have posted on this saying that's how they jump all the totally green-never-seen-a-fence-before, babies so they'll be used to it?

I'm probably not going to send you my horses.

Anyone want to give me a good reason why the absolute, total, unquestioned authority on hunt seat riding in the entire world, Mr. George Morris, even in his admittedly aging years, would not be caught dead riding the way 90% of the hunter riders ride today? Because if someone finds a quote from GM saying "oh, it's to give the horse a good ride, what you look like doesn't matter",

then I'll shut up.

Czar
Mar. 24, 2011, 09:34 AM
In hunters, you must give a good release to get a good looking jump and keep some flow. In eventing and jumpers, you need to land ready to communicate. When we err, hunters err on the side of throwing away and jumpers and eventers often err on a stingey or non-existent release.

Unfortunately if you do that on a hunter it looks ugly. Do it on a jumper or XC and it does not matter, plus you can make that turn.



But a non-existent release DOES matter....to the horse.

This is the thing - it does start at the lower levels but it's not greedy trainers that don't care. You catch a horse in the mouth, you punish the horse. You jump ahead and fall off, you punish yourself. As an instructor, you'd better believe that while learning, I would rather my students jump ahead than get left behind.

Would I love to teach them how to do it right without having to take the lesser of two evils...of course! But let's be honest; there's maybe 1 out of 30 kids that actually has the tenacity to want to ride well & go beyond the once-a-week pony ride. Most are there like they show up for their piano, swimming, dance lessons - mom & dad want to fill up another hour of their time. They don't want to do no-stirrups work, they don't want to ride around in their 2-point & they certainly don't want to take the time it takes riding ONCE a week to actually build up enough muscle to ride properly before they get to do the "fun" stuff. Furthermore, the instructor is under pressure from BO to keep the clients happy since that means $$$$ & we all know horses don't live on air.

It IS a lack of horsemanship that you see at the lower levels but I would hardly blame that on the trainers - at those levels you do what you have to to keep people happy so you can continue to eat ;) If you want to blame someone...blame society for the instant gratification phenomenon that forces instructors and trainers to modify their training programs to stay in business.

At the upper levels however, I always find it amusing when people bash top riders. I mean really, how do you even have the gall? And if it was so horrible, why do the horses continue to jump freakishly amazing?

And lastly, I am almost ALWAYS too far out of my saddle over a jump for what is considered pretty.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2091641390097913210ixCzmm

I have ridden babies for most of my riding career (going on 20 years), have taught countless horses to jump & have had to get on even more that needed tuning up. I can honestly say that I have only once come off over a fence. It's called holding on with your legs people :rolleyes: The horse in this pic was a young TB I was bringing along - I was 5 months pregnant at the time but still managed to get too far out of my saddle :)

magnolia73
Mar. 24, 2011, 09:42 AM
Well, it works for the trainers, horses and riders. I don't know. My trainer who worked on my horse has jumped her in a field over coops and tires. Her kids all jump in the same field. They do crest releases. Nobody dies. The horses all look relaxed and rthymic before, during and after the jump. When they take a peek the riders all seem to handle it nicely. Her main jump course is set in an open field that goes up and down and is bumpy and lumpy. Sure, they aren't jumping banks....

I mean, this style of riding might not make everyone happy but it seems to work for a lot of people and a lot of horses. It may well simply be a short cut to do basic jumping and keep your horse happy.

Czar
Mar. 24, 2011, 09:55 AM
Well, it works for the trainers, horses and riders. I don't know. My trainer who worked on my horse has jumped her in a field over coops and tires. Her kids all jump in the same field. They do crest releases. Nobody dies. The horses all look relaxed and rthymic before, during and after the jump. When they take a peek the riders all seem to handle it nicely. Her main jump course is set in an open field that goes up and down and is bumpy and lumpy. Sure, they aren't jumping banks....

I mean, this style of riding might not make everyone happy but it seems to work for a lot of people and a lot of horses. It may well simply be a short cut to do basic jumping and keep your horse happy.

I think we agree :lol:

meupatdoes
Mar. 24, 2011, 10:13 AM
If you're younger than 40, I apologize,

I just turned 31.

The period I was describing were my junior years where my trainers had equitation kids in the top ten in the country.

This was also when Andre Dignelli, whom you may have heard of, was based out of the same facility. With the hills and all the open fields and the whole etc.

And, yes, also a grab and a SIZABLE bank in the GP field that got regular use.


So, from my not-actually-so-ancient experience, that is how the top h/j and equitation programs in this country are run.

Maybe everybody else is riding around in a small sand arena but that was definitely not my experience or the experience of the kids that came from those programs who were winning the finals (Peter, for example) or filling out several of the remaining top ribbons.

2bayboys
Mar. 24, 2011, 10:20 AM
I have a feeling this is the type of ride that the critics refer to as ugly: Tommy Serio (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.popeyek.com/images/popeyeK_home.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.popeyek.com/&h=355&w=535&sz=104&tbnid=sKx2Lq817ZaFIM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpopeye%2Bk%2Bimages&zoom=1&q=popeye+k+images&usg=__TU4zK_Cnp873s8qAcxaGHh9BwhI=&sa=X&ei=AESLTcHGBMWV0QGV4LCBDg&ved=0CBoQ9QEwAQ)

Seen in a still photo, this rider does not inspire one to emulate his position. But I guarantee you, when I had the opportunity to watch this horse and rider combination in person, I was not paying the least bit of attention to the rider at all. And that is the point, no?

Trixie
Mar. 24, 2011, 10:25 AM
A point I think many of these posts have missed is that hunter riders (show ring, not fox hunters) typically ride in an arena that is perfectly flat with no slope. An artificial environment. How many show hunter riders out there have ever hacked (much less jumped) their horse XC? I think that's why the eventer riders exhibit a much tighter position; try jumping up on the horse's neck while jumping down a ditch or bank!


This is always the world’s most bizarre argument to me. As someone who grew up showing hunters and still does, we’ve ALWAYS ridden outside a ring. Every hunter barn I’ve ridden at has people that go trail riding and still show. The vast majority of us are not going to keel over and OMGZZZZZZZZZDIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE over a bank jump, or anything downhill. See? (http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL936/3762429/8745337/119503308.jpg)

As per Rugbug’s request (thank you for the complements) – and yes, I am from the last 20 years. This (http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL936/3762429/14951917/395888441.jpg)was where I started. I’m sure you can yammer about ducking, or whatever. I’ll just say I was probably 15 in this picture and no grand equitator. Yet, we trail rode, jumped XC, and I survived! :eek:

Today, riding hunters (http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2118/12358822/21984558/373665949.jpg). This horse LIVES for trail rides.

But you see here? This (http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL936/3762429/8745337/119503330.jpg)is where they take my hunter princess card away. Completely. Because I’ve made the freaking cardinal sin. MY HAIR HAS FALLEN OUT OF MY HELMET. OMG. OMG. Also, I’m wearing non-custom half chaps that have slid down!!!1111!!

But you’re right… we never leave the ring. (http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL936/3762429/13832131/208552869.jpg) (GAAAAAAAH MY SHIRT DOESN'T MATCH MY SQUARE SADDLE PAD!)

Mind you, I’m no professional or example of perfect equitation – I’m probably about the most amateur hunter rider there is, who sits behind a desk for a minimum of 45 hours a week and has a long commute. Yes, mistakes are made, yes, equitation slipped. I just want to point out that cross training – and trail riding – and jumping XC fences – is not limited to eventers, and is not going to make most hunter riders fall off at the walk. Seriously.

meupatdoes
Mar. 24, 2011, 10:31 AM
Trixie, we all know that's really just a very big ring that's seen some rain.

Also I believe now that the hunter riders have shown their photos the bearers of the bygone standard who like TOTES know how it is done at the upper echelons of h/j land ought to show us theirs.

magnolia73
Mar. 24, 2011, 10:59 AM
God, Trixie, I wished I sucked as much as you. :lol:

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 24, 2011, 11:15 AM
Hmmm...I'm only 22 and the barn I rode at as a junior had a bank built into the outdoor arena. Even the short stirrup kids learned how to ride it correctly. We also regularly schooled outside of the ring.

In college, the HUNTER barn I rode at had a grob and two banks in their field that we took the pre-green hunters out to play on quite often.

The first time I ever jumped my current baby green was on a hill over a log.

Please, let's try not to make assumptions about hunter riders when we don't actually know what we're talking about. ;)

tallygirl
Mar. 24, 2011, 11:30 AM
I am going to have to agree with most posters here. Pro hunter riders have lost their care of their position. I see more Amateurs that look better then them. And really who are we supposed to look up to when the pros leg is so far back and they are laying on their horses neck?

AND even though hunters is only based on the horse and how well it jumps etc... why wouldnt you want to have good equitation anyways to make a good turnout? My trainer instills good equitation in our heads. 24*7. We ride dressage most of the week for that reason and jump maybe once a week. Just saying. If im going to show i want to look my best even if i am not being judged.

englishcowgirl
Mar. 24, 2011, 11:31 AM
I am really confused. My mare and I love to show hunters and we don't ride like what you all are saying hunter's ride like. There is no ducking or excessive release, we look just like the jumper riders with our form. We like to do jumpers sometimes, cross country, and gallop around outside the arena when we have a chance. We pin pretty well at shows, although we are just on our state circuit. Please don't carry this stigma to all riders who show in the hunter ring.

Everythingbutwings
Mar. 24, 2011, 11:39 AM
It seems to me that there are one heck of a lot more amateurs going round at 2"6" vs Pros going 4" with their horses (recall just what is being judged?) looking flawless. :)

Trixie
Mar. 24, 2011, 11:48 AM
I am going to have to agree with most posters here. Pro hunter riders have lost their care of their position. I see more Amateurs that look better then them. And really who are we supposed to look up to when the pros leg is so far back and they are laying on their horses neck?

If most ammies ride better than pros, how come they aren't regularly beating them? Is it like, politics? Or maybe because it's based on what the horse is doing.

Frankly, when I watch one of the really good hunter pros, I'm not usually watching THEM. I'm not noticing if their leg slips a little, I'm noticing how smooth the ride is and watching a brilliantly jumping horse. I'm also watching the fact that they seem to never miss, which I know is beyond me.


AND even though hunters is only based on the horse and how well it jumps etc... why wouldnt you want to have good equitation anyways to make a good turnout? My trainer instills good equitation in our heads. 24*7. We ride dressage most of the week for that reason and jump maybe once a week. Just saying. If im going to show i want to look my best even if i am not being judged.

I've still never met a good hunter trainer that tells people to ride like crap or not to do flatwork.

hntrjmprpro45
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:06 PM
You know what I find amazing? The fact that this gets discussed nearly every month on this discussion board!

Alright, I'll skip to the end...

Hunter, jumper, eventing and dressage are all different disciplines and require different types of rides.

As much as it annoys the old timers, you CAN ride effectively with non-traditional equitation. Take a look at some of the top jumper riders, some have classical equitation and some have a style all their own.

The hunter horses of today are NOT the same as the hunters of yester-year. Good or bad, it has evolved into something different. Same thing applies to eq and medal classes.

I think I covered the high points of this argument. Perhaps we should compile these discussions into a cliff notes version that we can whip out whenever the topic is brought up. By the way, if you don't like the way the pros ride, become a professional, beat them all and popularize your own style!

Everythingbutwings
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:12 PM
if you don't like the way the pros ride, become a professional, beat them all and popularize your own style!

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! :winkgrin:

doublesstable
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:21 PM
:lol: Sorry had to re-post this - - because it's funny!


The trainers drill the horses till they're almost like circus horses and all the riders have to do is lean and cling.

I drilled the "ba-ge-bies" out of my old horse and he "never" became that circus horse I always wanted. :lol: And come to think of it; my current horses I have spent a pretty penny on some BNT to make them circus horses and it's not working! darn it. :lol:



Everything I learned to ride on (back when all bridles had flat, unadorned leather nosebands and all saddles were hard as bricks) would have unceremoniously dumped me on my face had I approached a fence like that.

I love this quote - truly I do! I had one of those bridles wanting sooo badly to have one of those adorned fancy ones all the rich girls were getting.... and I still have that "brick" of a saddle... and at 45 years old I FINALLY got a new cushy one... oh it's sooo nice! Hasn't helped my riding much however. :lol:


Note to GM, you should have never started the crest release, you should have just taken their reins away till they learned how to use them.

GM, thanks for sharing the crest release because I'm sure my horses mouths thank you when I was trying to figure it all out... :lol: A good hand doesn't come from the "hand" or taking reins away, it comes from a solid leg and balance... and...(I say sharing because one man alone doesn't teach the entire horse world the tricks of the trade) Well, maybe he does, since he is GM after all. :lol: ;)

magnolia73
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:30 PM
I've still never met a good hunter trainer that tells people to ride like crap or not to do flatwork.


Oh come now, lets get all the stereotypes out:


My trainer just uses ace on the horse and xanax on me. No need to ride when you have drugs.
My horse lives in draw reins.
The minimum price of a 2'6 hunter is $100,000 (well, that's after the $95,000 commission).
I'm drunk when I show. Makes the xanax work that much better.
I once tried to do flat work and get yelled at to put my draw reins back on.
My horse falls over if turned out, she can't walk on anything but perfect footing.
My mexican tacks up my horse. I have no clue if my tack is flat or raised.
My riding pants cost more than your event horse and/or jumper.

tallygirl
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:45 PM
its sad that people are even arguing this. Its like you are saying its OKAY to ride like crap. no heals down cuz you're a pro? laying on your horses neck? legs up in the air like superman? this is what some of you are teaching is okay? wow. thats sad. Again, i think a lot of ammies are better than pro's they just dont have the 100k plus horse to get them to the pro's. Sorry you are instilling poor riding amongst others. thats sad. :eek:

doublesstable
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:48 PM
I am going to have to agree with most posters here. Pro hunter riders have lost their care of their position. I see more Amateurs that look better then them. And really who are we supposed to look up to when the pros leg is so far back and they are laying on their horses neck?

I will offer an observation of mine. My trainer is a Hunter rider... and yes I have seen pix of him doing the head to the side hands way up and leg back... but watching him in person - he is a beautiful rider! I wish I had the talent he has in one pinky. There are those fences in the Hunter round that he must do what he needs - he is a pro and makes that Hunter horse go around pretty amazingly.

tallygirl
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:54 PM
I will offer an observation of mine. My trainer is a Hunter rider... and yes I have seen pix of him doing the head to the side hands way up and leg back... but watching him in person - he is a beautiful rider! I wish I had the talent he has in one pinky. There are those fences in the Hunter round that he must do what he needs - he is a pro and makes that Hunter horse go around pretty amazingly.


And Im by no means saying all pro riders do this.. But i have seen a few that are flying on top of their horses like superman around every jump. There are some GREAT pro riders out there. I just dont like the fact that some people are pretty much saying its okay to ride without our heals down, with laying on the horses neck etc. That to me is not okay.

Thats all i will say... Carry on all.....

doublesstable
Mar. 24, 2011, 12:59 PM
And Im by no means saying all pro riders do this.. But i have seen a few that are flying on top of their horses like superman around every jump. There are some GREAT pro riders out there. I just dont like the fact that some people are pretty much saying its okay to ride without our heals down, with laying on the horses neck etc. That to me is not okay.

Very true and I agree 100% with you. I do think some of the Pro Hunter riders are capable of riding a certain way and most ammies are not. Maybe that is one of the issues here?

I guess the bottom line is (just like everything in life) there is good, bad and in between in the industry. We make choices on who we ride with (in hopes) we will shape the direction. And in our sport where a judge is used, those judges, more often than not, shape it.

Maybe more people here need to be judges not trainers?? :) ;)

Trixie
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:00 PM
its sad that people are even arguing this. Its like you are saying its OKAY to ride like crap. no heals down cuz you're a pro? laying on your horses neck? legs up in the air like superman? this is what some of you are teaching is okay? wow. thats sad. Again, i think a lot of ammies are better than pro's they just dont have the 100k plus horse to get them to the pro's. Sorry you are instilling poor riding amongst others. thats sad.

It's sad that you can't really write a cohesive paragraph.

For the record, I'm not teaching anything. I'm an amateur rider. I go to a lot of horse shows. And I don't think that any of our top professionals "ride like crap." I think they regularly put in smooth, beautiful rides. If you're SO much better than they are, why aren't you beating them regularly?

And secondly, where exactly do you think these $100K horses COME FROM? And have we not noticed that these excellent amateurs are the OWNERS of these $100K horses, NOT pros?

meupatdoes
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:10 PM
its sad that people are even arguing this. Its like you are saying its OKAY to ride like crap. no heals down cuz you're a pro? laying on your horses neck? legs up in the air like superman? this is what some of you are teaching is okay? wow. thats sad. Again, i think a lot of ammies are better than pro's they just dont have the 100k plus horse to get them to the pro's. Sorry you are instilling poor riding amongst others. thats sad. :eek:

Well, a lot of the trainers who focus ONLY on little equitation points are terrible trainers.

Watch your average teenager teaching a beginner riding lesson. I'm sure there are some good young instructors but quite frankly most of them suck. All they say is "heels down, shoulders back" on repeat. They may as well just stick a tape recorder on the fence and let it do the teaching.

The average amateur helping their friend ride doesn't generally compare to a professional teaching. They miss small details about the quality of the pace and the path and the straightness etc. They don't set up the exercises stratgically customized to the horse.

Look at some of the critiques on these threads. Someone rides around with the typical holes in their steering and straightness and people say, "Hands lower." Not, here are some of the holes in your flat work and now come ten ways to help fix them but, "hands lower." Hands lower ain't gonna straighten the horse.

But who is doing the critiqueing on these threads? Lots of teenagers, amateurs, and small time local pros. Suddenly they have a super sophisticated eye and can diagnose all the world's problems. But really if your horses jumped as STRAIGHT as Jen Alfano's you'd be in business.

To an uneducated eye (uneducated relative to a top pro, which most amateurs are I think we can agree?), the heels are the only thing that sticks out. Give a horse a ruler straight, perfectly paced ride with your heels up and they will criticize the heels. Give the same horse a crooked, bulging, inconsistent ride with a slightly off distance with your heels down and they will say, "Good heels, but try hands lower and stick your chest up more next time!"

Meanwhile, the person who nailed the jump straight and centered with the perfect distance and cantered away with the same pace they left the ground from was the one who gave their horse the best ride REGARDLESS of who equitated how.

Lots of people miss the forest for the trees, which would be fine if they didn't so obviously think they were better than the love child of Peter Pletcher and Louise Serio for doing so.

CBoylen
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:11 PM
Maybe more people here need to be judges not trainers?? :) ;)

Only the ones that understand that they are supposed to be judging the HORSE in the hunter ring.

doublesstable
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:34 PM
Only the ones that understand that they are supposed to be judging the HORSE in the hunter ring.

My point exactly! :)

and to add - this is one AMAZING horse.... ugly rider or not - if I were a judge :)

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.popeyek.com/images/popeyeK_home.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.popeyek.com/&h=355&w=535&sz=104&tbnid=sKx2Lq817ZaFIM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpopeye%2Bk%2Bimages&zoom=1&q=popeye+k+images&usg=__TU4zK_Cnp873s8qAcxaGHh9BwhI=&sa=X&ei=AESLTcHGBMWV0QGV4LCBDg&ved=0CBoQ9QEwAQ

TheBarnRules
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:39 PM
Personally, I don't think it's the disicipline - I think its the teaching. The eventing pros are going towards more focus on technique. And, as this thread stated, the hunters are going for less. I just happened to see the results of it at one small show, and it was pretty incredible to watch.

This.

I've been at eventing barns and h/j barns. I have noticed that, probably due to the spotlight on all the accidents in eventing, eventing trainers are getting much more "technical" in their training. A lot of the h/j trainers I see (not all of them, but a good number) are producing, what looks to me, like western pleasure horses over fences. The additional problem is that they and their students are imitating what they see winning - and it isn't GM-style riding.

I am hopeful that Derby-style shows will help bring back what the hunters are supposed to be - showing off how well your horse would go in the field.

magnolia73
Mar. 24, 2011, 01:45 PM
I just dont like the fact that some people are pretty much saying its okay to ride without our heals down, with laying on the horses neck etc. That to me is not okay.



I have never, ever heard a trainer say "Hey, please, heels up that will let your leg slip back a bit more over the oxer, crotch in front of the pommel and next time, chin below mane.".

Obviously in the HUNTER RING - a leg slipping, ducking, whatever is not the problem it is in other disciplines.

SunkenMeadow
Mar. 24, 2011, 02:09 PM
Here's the thing.

Our body influences the way our horses jump right? I think we all agree to that. Right?

Hunters are judged on the way a horse moves and jumps. Right? Straight, even with the knees, round back, clean lead changes, to name a few things, right?

Has anyone ever ridden a horse that doesnt have a smooth right to left lead change? What do you do? You try to influence the horse to land on the left lead if possible right? How do you do that?

Or has anyone ridden a horse with a right drift or a lazy right foreleg? What can we do with our bodies to compensate for that? hmmmm...let's ponder that.

Hint: in hunters we have to be smooth...meaning we can't go to the fence with an obvious hard ride, that we may use in schooling to correct such behavior... so we use the only tool available... our weight or our bodies to compensate for this. Things need to be as invisible as possible. I don't think these pros are leaning for the pleasure of it, but rather to enhance their horse.

Is it perfect? No. But what is? And truly, as many have said a still does not tell the whole story. I can guarantee you John French or Tommy Serio can ride circles around most people on any horse. Pretty is as pretty does is a favorite saying of mine.

doublesstable
Mar. 24, 2011, 02:15 PM
Here's the thing.

Our body influences the way our horses jump right? I think we all agree to that. Right?

Hunters are judged on the way a horse moves and jumps. Right? Straight, even with the knees, round back, clean lead changes, to name a few things, right?

Has anyone ever ridden a horse that doesnt have a smooth right to left lead change? What do you do? You try to influence the horse to land on the left lead if possible right? How do you do that?

Or has anyone ridden a horse with a right drift or a lazy right foreleg? What can we do with our bodies to compensate for that? hmmmm...let's ponder that.

Hint: in hunters we have to be smooth...meaning we can't go to the fence with an obvious hard ride, that we may use in schooling to correct such behavior... so we use the only tool available... our weight or our bodies to compensate for this. Things need to be as invisible as possible. I don't think these pros are leaning for the pleasure of it, but rather to enhance their horse.

Is it perfect? No. But what is? And truly, as many have said a still does not tell the whole story. I can guarantee you John French or Tommy Serio can ride circles around most people on any horse. Pretty is as pretty does is a favorite saying of mine.

Becoming involved in this thread - just had to say ^^^^ THIS. :)

Midge
Mar. 24, 2011, 02:25 PM
Oh come now, lets get all the stereotypes out:


My trainer just uses ace on the horse and xanax on me. No need to ride when you have drugs.
My horse lives in draw reins.
The minimum price of a 2'6 hunter is $100,000 (well, that's after the $95,000 commission).
I'm drunk when I show. Makes the xanax work that much better.
I once tried to do flat work and get yelled at to put my draw reins back on.
My horse falls over if turned out, she can't walk on anything but perfect footing.
My mexican tacks up my horse. I have no clue if my tack is flat or raised.
My riding pants cost more than your event horse and/or jumper.



Mag, you are spot on with this thread!!! Thanks for the laughs...

2bayboys
Mar. 24, 2011, 02:30 PM
its sad that people are even arguing this. Its like you are saying its OKAY to ride like crap. no heals down cuz you're a pro? laying on your horses neck? legs up in the air like superman? this is what some of you are teaching is okay? wow. thats sad. Again, i think a lot of ammies are better than pro's they just dont have the 100k plus horse to get them to the pro's. Sorry you are instilling poor riding amongst others. thats sad. :eek:

I've never met a pro who tells his/her students to ride in the way you describe. BUT, for a pro whose focus is the hunter ring, the rider's position in the air is rather the least of their concerns once you get to the higher levels. A hunter round is not an equitation round, or a jumper round, or a cross country round. The pros you are criticizing obviously know how to produce a hunter round that wins.

DMK
Mar. 24, 2011, 05:03 PM
Honestly, it's threads like these that make Pocket Trainer (see the light! Light available - $99.95) sorry she ever retired.

CBoylen
Mar. 24, 2011, 06:22 PM
Well, a lot of the trainers who focus ONLY on little equitation points are terrible trainers.

Watch your average teenager teaching a beginner riding lesson. I'm sure there are some good young instructors but quite frankly most of them suck. All they say is "heels down, shoulders back" on repeat. They may as well just stick a tape recorder on the fence and let it do the teaching.

The average amateur helping their friend ride doesn't generally compare to a professional teaching. They miss small details about the quality of the pace and the path and the straightness etc. They don't set up the exercises stratgically customized to the horse.

Look at some of the critiques on these threads. Someone rides around with the typical holes in their steering and straightness and people say, "Hands lower." Not, here are some of the holes in your flat work and now come ten ways to help fix them but, "hands lower." Hands lower ain't gonna straighten the horse.

But who is doing the critiqueing on these threads? Lots of teenagers, amateurs, and small time local pros. Suddenly they have a super sophisticated eye and can diagnose all the world's problems. But really if your horses jumped as STRAIGHT as Jen Alfano's you'd be in business.

To an uneducated eye (uneducated relative to a top pro, which most amateurs are I think we can agree?), the heels are the only thing that sticks out. Give a horse a ruler straight, perfectly paced ride with your heels up and they will criticize the heels. Give the same horse a crooked, bulging, inconsistent ride with a slightly off distance with your heels down and they will say, "Good heels, but try hands lower and stick your chest up more next time!"

Meanwhile, the person who nailed the jump straight and centered with the perfect distance and cantered away with the same pace they left the ground from was the one who gave their horse the best ride REGARDLESS of who equitated how.

Lots of people miss the forest for the trees, which would be fine if they didn't so obviously think they were better than the love child of Peter Pletcher and Louise Serio for doing so.
Great post.

3Dogs
Mar. 24, 2011, 07:34 PM
getting the job done right is darn fine!

some look damn awful doing it - which I do think distracts - for hunters - but -frankly, I think the whole hunter game has changed.

These days, the judging of hunters leaves more questions than answers - forget the riders. More often than not, winning rounds? The flat, dead quiet non atheletes - legs up, legs down, legs up, legs down. Forget the rider - or maybe it is the rider - who knows? Personally I don't know if many of the pros in hunters can ride the big jump anymore - someone mentioned here REALLY needs them DEAD quiet to get on. And then the drugs. AACK -

I loved that picture Denny Emerson posted and the article.
Rodney was terrific -

But both the picture and Rodney's rides from a time past.

Hunters today ? -I think they have largely gone from the uber athelete (Rox Dene, Rumba (to name a few I can think of) - though he and she won a lot, and Rumba still does, deservedly with his junior) - to the "faker" horses, Not all but many - no real bascule, decent movers, flat, no expression and god forbid any playfullness - show to show to show - so the "riding" style ? The pros make it happen, they find the distances - but but but - what's to actually RIDE?

I use hyperbole - of course there are exceptions! But watching the Performance Hunter classes at Thermal - 4-4'6 -

painful.

And then to watch a BNT get an 88 when he popped a pole out of the cup, only pole didn't fall to ground but hit the pole below? Dropped the height of the fence.

pitiful.

Thoroughbred1201
Mar. 24, 2011, 11:59 PM
This.

I am hopeful that Derby-style shows will help bring back what the hunters are supposed to be - showing off how well your horse would go in the field.


I think it's happening. I just got my Chronicle Horse Show issue. (I'm probably the last person to see it. In this far NW corner we get everything late.) Anyway, I looked at the pictures of the national winners, and WOW is all I've got to say. It looked like several of the pictures were from the derbies. Incredible horses, and incredible riders. Not one 'preying mantis' (to borrow an earlier phrase) amoung them. Just workmanlike riding. Nothing like the exagerations that have been seen in the past years issues. Just incredible horses and incredible riding.

Considering the discussion on this thread, I just thought I'd throw that out there.

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 01:34 AM
It's sad that you can't really write a cohesive paragraph.

For the record, I'm not teaching anything. I'm an amateur rider. I go to a lot of horse shows. And I don't think that any of our top professionals "ride like crap." I think they regularly put in smooth, beautiful rides. If you're SO much better than they are, why aren't you beating them regularly?

And secondly, where exactly do you think these $100K horses COME FROM? And have we not noticed that these excellent amateurs are the OWNERS of these $100K horses, NOT pros?

wow you must be fun to be around. :lol:

Like i said I am not saying every hunter trainer says keep your heals up, never said that. Never said every hunter pro rides like shit, etc. All i said is I dont think its okay to just because you are a pro rider to ride around throwing your body up your horses neck or flying around like super man. Thats not attractive

And we as ammies look up to these pro riders. If they are riding around like superman then what do we have to look up too? thats my point.

I honestly hardly ever show anymore. i work 60 plus hours a week and am riding with a great dressage trainer now and just enjoying my horse. I rode hunters for years with a trainer who made us have good equitation. Now im just having fun and to be honest I actually like it. Im not here to beat everyone or to to be a pro rider. Im just here to enjoy my horse and have a good time. These days having a good time is seriously lacking in the H/J world because everyone for some reason thinks they know it all.

I learn from everyone everyday and I dont mind not knowing everything, but i am entitled to have an opinion. There is no reason to be a know it all or be catty.....

PS doublestable. i love you and you're posts!! you are awesome. :D

doublesstable
Mar. 25, 2011, 03:37 AM
PS doublestable. i love you and you're posts!! you are awesome. :D

:) :D Why thank you!!! Wow, usually my mouth gets me into lots of trouble.

I am like you and having so much fun simply enjoying my horses.... so when are we GOING RIDING?

doublesstable
Mar. 25, 2011, 03:47 AM
Look at some of the critiques on these threads. Someone rides around with the typical holes in their steering and straightness and people say, "Hands lower." Not, here are some of the holes in your flat work and now come ten ways to help fix them but, "hands lower." Hands lower ain't gonna straighten the horse.

But who is doing the critiqueing on these threads? Lots of teenagers, amateurs, and small time local pros. Suddenly they have a super sophisticated eye and can diagnose all the world's problems.

I so understand what you are saying about trainers but think it's more of levels of trainers not just those who teach Eq.

And the critiques on these threads - :lol: you get what you pay for. And I like doing the critiques... I may be an ammy but I do take lessons, I have been riding long enough to know some things - of course I need to know more; but saying that, maybe I might help someone... Also someone will learn a lot more in a "live" lesson than from a photo or video clip. And I can say many posters here have helped me a great deal with some issues I have had.... but again, you get what you pay for.

Thats why I love riding with my trainers when I can afford it - they teach both Hunters and Eq and have sooo much to offer because I am beyond the tape recorder (thought that was funny BTW)... but beginner students have to start someplace and riding with John French for your first lesson probably wouldn't be the best thing to do.... ;)

meupatdoes
Mar. 25, 2011, 04:39 AM
I so understand what you are saying about trainers but think it's more of levels of trainers not just those who teach Eq.

And the critiques on these threads - :lol: you get what you pay for. And I like doing the critiques... I may be an ammy but I do take lessons, I have been riding long enough to know some things - of course I need to know more; but saying that, maybe I might help someone... Also someone will learn a lot more in a "live" lesson than from a photo or video clip. And I can say many posters here have helped me a great deal with some issues I have had.... but again, you get what you pay for.

Thats why I love riding with my trainers when I can afford it - they teach both Hunters and Eq and have sooo much to offer because I am beyond the tape recorder (thought that was funny BTW)... but beginner students have to start someplace and riding with John French for your first lesson probably wouldn't be the best thing to do.... ;)

When I switched paragraphs to the one starting with the bolded words I meant the critiques on the "Hunter Pros Can't Equitate Anymore" threads.

Suddenly teenagers and amateurs from behind their desks who would never dream of going to an AA-rated show trainerless (omg, what do I do? who is going to warm me up???) and who would not feel confident helping a barnmate go to an A show trainerless ("uh, I guess use the same warmup fence like everyone else. yeah, do that. what do you mean you want me to school it in the lows for you so it can see the course before it's your turn?!"), who wouldn't claim to know how to bring a baby horse along from scratch on their own to clock around the PreGreens or teach a rider to competitively navigate the Adults, are suddenly on this thread critiquing the equitation of Tommy Serio.

Now, if somebody has a demonstrated record of preparing several horses for the Second Years and has a string of students clocking around the A/Os, that is one thing, but those are not the people I'm seeing doing all the critiquing on this thread.

(And for the record, everybody from day one is beyond the tape recorder. Beginners need to be taught well if they are ever going to ride well. Either the trainer can do it from the start or they can waste several years doing the 2'6" all effed up and have someone start them back from scratch when they finally go someplace good.)

meupatdoes
Mar. 25, 2011, 05:07 AM
And we as ammies look up to these pro riders. If they are riding around like superman then what do we have to look up too? thats my point.

Try taking your eyes off their heels and tookus long enough to observe the pace, the rhythm, the straightness, and how the riders manage both the turns and the long approaches without losing an ounce of quality in the canter and you might find something to look up to.

Napoles
Mar. 25, 2011, 07:34 AM
When I switched paragraphs to the one starting with the bolded words I meant the critiques on the "Hunter Pros Can't Equitate Anymore" threads.

Suddenly teenagers and amateurs from behind their desks who would never dream of going to an AA-rated show trainerless (omg, what do I do? who is going to warm me up???) and who would not feel confident helping a barnmate go to an A show trainerless ("uh, I guess use the same warmup fence like everyone else. yeah, do that. what do you mean you want me to school it in the lows for you so it can see the course before it's your turn?!"), who wouldn't claim to know how to bring a baby horse along from scratch on their own to clock around the PreGreens or teach a rider to competitively navigate the Adults, are suddenly on this thread critiquing the equitation of Tommy Serio.

Now, if somebody has a demonstrated record of preparing several horses for the Second Years and has a string of students clocking around the A/Os, that is one thing, but those are not the people I'm seeing doing all the critiquing on this thread.

(And for the record, everybody from day one is beyond the tape recorder. Beginners need to be taught well if they are ever going to ride well. Either the trainer can do it from the start or they can waste several years doing the 2'6" all effed up and have someone start them back from scratch when they finally go someplace good.)

:lol::lol::lol:
Great post. I can't comment on the Hunter criticisms, having never seen one of those classes, but as someone who events and also shows working hunters in Europe, I am intrigued by the different styles. Over here, in the show classes (which admittedly seem to be very different), there is no difference in the rider's style over the fence to the same rider's style over an event fence. Quite a few eventers here would use Working hunter classes as outings for their young event horses.

Re Meupatdoes' post above, unfortunately this is a symptom of equine forums everywhere - desk warriors criticising Mary King at Badminton for having a less than perfect position over the Vicarage V. :D Goes with the territory - top equine pros are unlikely to have the time to be sitting at their computers in the middle of the day to contribute to those discussions.

Czar
Mar. 25, 2011, 08:29 AM
to the "faker" horses, Not all but many - no real bascule, decent movers, flat, no expression and god forbid any playfullness - show to show to show - so the "riding" style ? The pros make it happen, they find the distances - but but but - what's to actually RIDE?



Oh please, I hope you don't think the only important thing in the hunter ring is nailing your distances. That may fly at the lower levels but it shows an ignorance of what it really takes to make a successful AA hunter.

It's not just about what you see in the ring - it takes knowledge and time to produce those horses that you see clocking around the AA hunter rings. Once they get to the pro ring - the training has been done so to the untrained eye, the rider appears to not be doing anything (and THAT'S the point!!!!)...anyone who's ever ridden a horse over a course of jumps should know better than to believe that a horse can simply be drugged to go like that.

I find it almost amusing when people come on these threads and make ridiculous statements about how an AA hunter is prepared/trained - I mean really, do you even have any idea? I find particularly ironic when such accusations are followed up with statements such as "I don't even show anymore".

ponymom64
Mar. 25, 2011, 09:48 AM
Ummmmmmm, who do you think is training all these good riding ammies of which you speak???

Most likely the "praying mantis" pro that you are criticizing!!

MyGiantPony
Mar. 25, 2011, 10:04 AM
Like i said I am not saying every hunter trainer says keep your heals up, never said that.

Just please...it's HEELS.

I'm not normally one to point out typos and grammatical errors, because God knows I make enough of them...but at least use the right word.

Trixie
Mar. 25, 2011, 10:06 AM
And we as ammies look up to these pro riders. If they are riding around like superman then what do we have to look up too? thats my point.

That’s the thing. They don’t all “ride around like superman.” If you WATCH them ride, you’ll notice the pace, softness, straightness, and incredible jumps of their horses. Instead you're choosing to pick on their faults.

FWIW, as an amateur rider, I have plenty of photos of me in an EXCELLENT POSITION – my heels are down! My release is nice! My back is flat! I am not jumping ahead nor left behind! And lo and behold, my horse is jumping like a deer because I effed up that pace and straightness part.


These days having a good time is seriously lacking in the H/J world because everyone for some reason thinks they know it all.

If you say so. We prefer the large tailgate party.


I learn from everyone everyday and I dont mind not knowing everything, but i am entitled to have an opinion. There is no reason to be a know it all or be catty.....

People are entitled, also, to disagree with your opinion. Especially when your opinion is that pros are only pros because they’re on $100K horses (hint: they're owned by amateurs), without giving apparently any thought to how these became $100K horses. Back up your opinion a little instead of just calling things "sad" and maybe you will better make your point.


It's not just about what you see in the ring - it takes knowledge and time to produce those horses that you see clocking around the AA hunter rings. Once they get to the pro ring - the training has been done so to the untrained eye, the rider appears to not be doing anything (and THAT'S the point!!!!)...anyone who's ever ridden a horse over a course of jumps should know better than to believe that a horse can simply be drugged to go like that.

This. But I’m always amazed that people who have actually ridden courses before can think that maintaining that high-quality canter up to a gorgeous distance on minimal contact with a flowy pace is soooo easy. They must be absolutely super riders, yet we… never seem to see them in the show ring.

ponies123
Mar. 25, 2011, 10:18 AM
wow you must be fun to be around. :lol:

Like i said I am not saying every hunter trainer says keep your heals up, never said that. Never said every hunter pro rides like shit, etc. All i said is I dont think its okay to just because you are a pro rider to ride around throwing your body up your horses neck or flying around like super man. Thats not attractive

I think you're missing the point. They're not there to be attractive, they're showing off the horse. They are not models, the judge does not pin them based on how far down their heels are or how far their leg has slipped back from the girth. Have you actually ever been to an A/AA show and watched the pro hunters go or are you making all of your assumptions off of still pictures? If judges were supposed to be pinning based on whether or not the rider was "attractive" we wouldn't have horse shows, we would dress up at the farm and submit our best jumping pictures to the judges and he'd do it all online. Classes are won because of rhythm, pace, distances, movement, the horse's jumping style, etc. as a whole.

Am I the only one that gets the impression that the people arguing that pros are "unattractive" in the superman poses and don't ride half as well as the ammys they're teaching are the same people who come and critique the juniors showing at the eq finals saying they could ride better than them because their heel was not perfectly down over this fence so OMG HOW DID THEY POSSIBLY RIBBON IN THE MACLAY FINALS I COULD KICK THEIR BUTT IF ONLY I HAD A $100,000 HORSE TOO :(. Same train of thought, they don't understand that winning in the big time equitation ring is achieved not by having your elbows at an exact angle to your body, but by making a difficult course look fluid and easy just like some people can't seem to understand that winning in the hunters isn't about keeping your leg at the girth over a 4' fence. It is, again, about getting the best out of a horse and making the course like easy.

News for all of you critiquing these extremely talented professionals - it ain't easy.

magnolia73
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:00 AM
And at the end of the day... if you WATCH the live round, not just glance at a photo that is literally what- 1/200th of a second? You just don't notice the rider form issues.

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:25 AM
i realize you are watching the horse but i think everyone and i mean everyone should have good equitation no matter what english riding discipline they are doing. and thats my opinion.

My point is I NEVER said all pros go out there and look like [crap]. you are just trying to start an argument for no reason. My point was that I think everyone should care what they look like, ie, equitation. I think there are some GREAT pro riders out there but I dont like seeing a pro rider and getting excited to see their round and they are flying around like superman.

If you think going around like superman is okay then more power to you. ive seen threads on here well people post the superman pictures and everyone says "well they are pro riders they are doing something right" So some of you DO think its okay to do that. Sorry to me it is not.

There is nothing to back up hun, its just an opinion, you dont have to "back up" an opinion. your argumentative attitude is really unappealing. Some of these ladies/gentlemen may disagree but atleast they are being worthy of talking too, you are obnoxious and just throw ridiculous claims out there that are not even close to my point. thanks.

double, anytime you want! you live in LA dont you?? :D

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:34 AM
I think you're missing the point. They're not there to be attractive, they're showing off the horse. They are not models, the judge does not pin them based on how far down their heels are or how far their leg has slipped back from the girth. Have you actually ever been to an A/AA show and watched the pro hunters go or are you making all of your assumptions off of still pictures? If judges were supposed to be pinning based on whether or not the rider was "attractive" we wouldn't have horse shows, we would dress up at the farm and submit our best jumping pictures to the judges and he'd do it all online. Classes are won because of rhythm, pace, distances, movement, the horse's jumping style, etc. as a whole.

Am I the only one that gets the impression that the people arguing that pros are "unattractive" in the superman poses and don't ride half as well as the ammys they're teaching are the same people who come and critique the juniors showing at the eq finals saying they could ride better than them because their heel was not perfectly down over this fence so OMG HOW DID THEY POSSIBLY RIBBON IN THE MACLAY FINALS I COULD KICK THEIR BUTT IF ONLY I HAD A $100,000 HORSE TOO :(. Same train of thought, they don't understand that winning in the big time equitation ring is achieved not by having your elbows at an exact angle to your body, but by making a difficult course look fluid and easy just like some people can't seem to understand that winning in the hunters isn't about keeping your leg at the girth over a 4' fence. It is, again, about getting the best out of a horse and making the course like easy.

News for all of you critiquing these extremely talented professionals - it ain't easy.

I am not saying that at all. If you read above I stated that I hardly even show anymore am really just enjoying my horses now... I dont go out and judge all these peoples rides etc. I enjoy my riding time/my horses/my riding friends and just aim to have a good time. The only thing ive been doing is some little dressage shows here and there these days. I dont think im gods gift to riding by any means. when i did show i pinned well but i just don't really care about all that anymore. Again my point is that regardless if you are judged on equitation i think no matter what english discipline you are in you SHOULD have good equitation, or atleast TRY too. This again is MY opinion. If you dont feel the same way thats fine. I am not gonna sit here and banter your opinions. There is nothing to be snarky about. i have an opinion about something, you dont agree, big deal. Move on. And yes Ive been to many many many A shows. I only go to support my friends now as I am not too involved in the show scene anymore. :)

Trixie
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:35 AM
There is nothing to back up hun, its just an opinion, you dont have to "back up" an opinion. your argumentative attitude is really unappealing. Some of these ladies/gentlemen may disagree but atleast they are being worthy of talking too, you are obnoxious and just throw ridiculous claims out there that are not even close to my point. thanks.

I’m not “starting an argument.” Asking you to clarify your argument (more than “thats sad”) is not being argumentative. I also want to know what “ridiculous claims” we have apparently thrown out.

This is a discussion forum. If you can’t manage to discuss – that is, without name calling, whining, cursing and losing sentence structure - I’m not exactly sure why your “point” should be taken seriously. You’ve continually overlooked the facts, and you haven’t answered anyone’s questions. Requesting you back up your arguement properly might give your arguement some creedence, although given your responses, likely not.

So, again. Where do you think these $100K horses come from?

Everythingbutwings
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:36 AM
I dont go out and judge all these peoples rides etc.

So, you're saying that you're only an expert on the internet, right? :winkgrin:

ponies123
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:48 AM
I am not saying that at all. If you read above I stated that I hardly even show anymore am really just enjoying my horses now... I dont go out and judge all these peoples rides etc. I enjoy my riding time/my horses/my riding friends and just aim to have a good time. The only thing ive been doing is some little dressage shows here and there these days. I dont think im gods gift to riding by any means. when i did show i pinned well but i just don't really care about all that anymore. Again my point is that regardless if you are judged on equitation i think no matter what english discipline you are in you SHOULD have good equitation, or atleast TRY too. This again is MY opinion. If you dont feel the same way thats fine. I am not gonna sit here and banter your opinions. There is nothing to be snarky about. i have an opinion about something, you dont agree, big deal. Move on. And yes Ive been to many many many A shows. I only go to support my friends now as I am not too involved in the show scene anymore. :)

I think you're being ruder than anyone "arguing" (I'd call it discussing, but that's semantics for you) with you. I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're young, but in life adults often discuss and debate differing opinions without name calling and the other pettiness. I'm sorry but hunters just has nothing to do with the rider's equitation. End of story. I'm sure Tommy Serio can canter around with his heels down and his eyes up just fine, but when he gets in the show ring on an amazing horse like Popeye he is not being paid to care what the peanut gallery thinks about his equitation. He is being paid to find 8, 9, whatever spots, nail the changes, keep the pace, etc. etc. and make it look easy. He goes above and beyond "easy" he makes the horse look FLAWLESS. If you think every Joe Amateur who has ever won an adult equitation class can do that then you are very, very wrong. Even the best ammys miss from time to time - that's usually why we're amateurs (and no, I know there are some awesome ammy riders that just don't want to be pro, but for MOST of us that's not the case).

And no, Joe Amateur doesn't need a 100k horse if he can ride like Tommy Serio, he can get something green and cheap and train it into a 100k horse if he's truly that talented.

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:48 AM
I’m not “starting an argument.” Asking you to clarify your argument (more than “thats sad”) is not being argumentative. I also want to know what “ridiculous claims” we have apparently thrown out.

This is a discussion forum. If you can’t manage to discuss – that is, without name calling, whining, cursing and losing sentence structure - I’m not exactly sure why your “point” should be taken seriously. You’ve continually overlooked the facts, and you haven’t answered anyone’s questions.

So, again. Where do you think these $100K horses come from?

I know these 100k horses come from ammies i never once said they didnt. The only thing i have stated, my opinion, is that AGAIN since i guess you are missing the point. I THINK everyone should care about equitation no matter what. thats all. I am in no way claiming to be a know it all, I am just stating an OPINION. I have my opinion. it has been stated. I DO NOT need to repeat it again. :)

This reminds me of the politics arguement, you have your opinion and I have mine. I am not going to change your mind on my opinion and well you arent going to change mine. So why dont you just move on? Mine isnt an argument, its an opinion. When i show i care about equitation no matter what. thats all :).

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:50 AM
I think you're being ruder than anyone "arguing" (I'd call it discussing, but that's semantics for you) with you. I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're young, but in life adults often discuss and debate differing opinions without name calling and the other pettiness. I'm sorry but hunters just has nothing to do with the rider's equitation. End of story. I'm sure Tommy Serio can canter around with his heels down and his eyes up just fine, but when he gets in the show ring on an amazing horse like Popeye he is not being paid to care what the peanut gallery thinks about his equitation. He is being paid to find 8, 9, whatever spots, nail the changes, keep the pace, etc. etc. and make it look easy. He goes above and beyond "easy" he makes the horse look FLAWLESS. If you think every Joe Amateur who has ever won an adult equitation class can do that then you are very, very wrong. Even the best ammys miss from time to time - that's usually why we're amateurs (and no, I know there are some awesome ammy riders that just don't want to be pro, but for MOST of us that's not the case).

And no, Joe Amateur doesn't need a 100k horse if he can ride like Tommy Serio, he can get something green and cheap and train it into a 100k horse if he's truly that talented.

LOL. :lol: no im not young, nor being rude at all. I just think everyone should care about equitation, regardless. thats all. :yes:

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:52 AM
So, you're saying that you're only an expert on the internet, right? :winkgrin:


hehehe no i wouldnt even say that much!! lol. :winkgrin:

Trixie
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:54 AM
I know these 100k horses come from ammies i never once said they didnt. The only thing i have stated, my opinion, is that AGAIN since i guess you are missing the point. I THINK everyone should care about equitation no matter what. thats all. I am in no way claiming to be a know it all, I am just stating an OPINION. You are just that kind of person that wants everyone to bow down and say OMG you are so right! no. sorry. I have my opinion. it has been stated. I DO NOT need to repeat it again.

But earlier in the thread you said:


Again, i think a lot of ammies are better than pro's they just dont have the 100k plus horse to get them to the pro's.

So, thank you for exactly proving my point. You have no argument and no clue.

ponies123
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:54 AM
LOL. :lol: no im not young, nor being rude at all. I just think everyone should care about equitation, regardless. thats all. :yes:

And at what point in your life did you have a conversation with Tommy Serio (or any other pro, just using his name because his picture was posted twice) where he told you that he didn't give two craps about equitation?

southernbell
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:56 AM
What I want to know is where she gets the idea that the pro horses only cost $ 100K LOL!

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 11:59 AM
And at what point in your life did you have a conversation with Tommy Serio (or any other pro, just using his name because his picture was posted twice) where he told you that he didn't give two craps about equitation?

Again i didnt say that they didnt give a crap. But by seeing SOME by no means ALL hunter pro riders rounds they fly around like superman. Is that caring about equitation? and didnt like 5 people before me just say they DONT care about equitation they just care about how the horse is going because thats what they are being judged on? hmmmm.

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:02 PM
But earlier in the thread you said:



So, thank you for exactly proving my point. You have no argument and no clue.

And again thats my opinion. OPINION. When i went to thermal i saw a lot more ammies with better equitation then the pro riders, even if they are not being judged on it. And to my eye that was my opinion you may disagree and say the pro riders rode better etc. There is nothing for me to argue with you about that, thats your opinion. clearly you need to look the definition up in the dictionary.

Didnt you just state how you are trying to have a discussion and not name call, etc?

I have no clue? lol, how old are you? :lol:

ponies123
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:03 PM
Again i didnt say that they didnt give a crap. But by seeing SOME by no means ALL hunter pro riders rounds they fly around like superman. Is that caring about equitation? and didnt like 5 people before me just say they DONT care about equitation they just care about how the horse is going because thats what they are being judged on? hmmmm.

That doesn't mean they don't care about equitation, I'll bet those pros still instil proper equitation fundamentals into their students, but I'd also bet their lessons cover more important things than marching around the ring yelling "heels down, SHOULDERS UP, heels down, hands forward". And hunters is judged on the horse, so yes equitation is not going to be the priority as they march around a course, but that doesn't mean they don't care about equitation.

You are confusing good equitation for good riding...

Trixie
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:03 PM
I didn't name call, I just pointed out that you directly contradicted yourself.

meupatdoes
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:06 PM
OK, everyone really ought to cancel their Tommy Serio slots and get behind the velvet rope to clinic with me instead because unlike his sloppy self *I* am a role model for future generations.

I mean, compare this travesty (http://www.floridahorse.com/2008WEF/images/01.16.08KSmith.jpg) with this stellar example (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/meupatdoes/10Q2-0395FB.jpg).

So please, if you know what's good for them, send all of your impressionable children to MY ingate over at the local schooling show because they will learn FAR MORE watching me introduce my young horses to what horse show flowers look like than they ever would getting led astray by the sight of John French making a complete hash of his eq in the international hunter derby.

Excuse me while I brace myself for the stampede.

So, tallygirl answer me this.
Would you prefer to lesson with me or with John French (http://www.waldenbrookfarm.com/gallery/gallery11/french_crown_jump.jpg)?
Do you think you would learn more watching me negotiate a course or Scott Stewart (http://horsesinthesouth.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ScottStewartInclusive1Yr.jpg)?
Would you rather have me train your hunter prospect or have Louise Serio (https://www.usef.org/_AUAIFrames/Pressbox/images/topstory/6658.jpg) do it? (Assume we'd both generously do it for free.)

Please explain after giving your choices why you chose who you did and what considerations weighed most heavily in your decision.

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:09 PM
I didn't name call, I just pointed out that you directly contradicted yourself.

no, i really didnt, but you should give yourself a pat on the back for all your hard work... :lol:

You have no clue. :lol:

ponies123
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:09 PM
OK, everyone really ought to cancel their Tommy Serio slots and get behind the velvet rope to clinic with me instead because unlike his sloppy self *I* am a role model for future generations.

I mean, compare this travesty (http://www.floridahorse.com/2008WEF/images/01.16.08KSmith.jpg) with this stellar example (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/meupatdoes/10Q2-0395FB.jpg).

So please, if you know what's good for them, send all of your impressionable children to MY ingate over at the local schooling show because they will learn FAR MORE watching me introduce my young horses to what horse show flowers look like than they ever would getting led astray by the sight of John French make a complete hash of his eq in the international hunter derby.

Excuse me while I brace myself for the stampede.

Does someone have an e-mail for these pros? I think we should forward them this thread, as they may like to come clinic with you. You do have a 6 figure horse though, right? Because if not, it is entirely implausible that you could teach us a thing.

Trixie
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:10 PM
Also? "Opinions" don't really mean a lot if you can't back them up with reasoned discourse. Last I checked, much like certain body parts, everyone has one.

Saying that "ammies are better than pro's they just don't have the 100k plus horse to get them to the pros" and that "I know these 100k horses come from ammies i never once said they didnt" is a direct contradiction, but it's probably better to lose it because in your opinion, it isn't.

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:10 PM
OK, everyone really ought to cancel their Tommy Serio slots and get behind the velvet rope to clinic with me instead because unlike his sloppy self *I* am a role model for future generations.

I mean, compare this travesty (http://www.floridahorse.com/2008WEF/images/01.16.08KSmith.jpg) with this stellar example (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/meupatdoes/10Q2-0395FB.jpg).

So please, if you know what's good for them, send all of your impressionable children to MY ingate over at the local schooling show because they will learn FAR MORE watching me introduce my young horses to what horse show flowers look like than they ever would getting led astray by the sight of John French make a complete hash of his eq in the international hunter derby.

Excuse me while I brace myself for the stampede.


Hey you look awesome to me! :)

southernbell
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
OK, everyone really ought to cancel their Tommy Serio slots and get behind the velvet rope to clinic with me instead because unlike his sloppy self *I* am a role model for future generations.

I mean, compare this travesty (http://www.floridahorse.com/2008WEF/images/01.16.08KSmith.jpg) with this stellar example (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/meupatdoes/10Q2-0395FB.jpg).

So please, if you know what's good for them, send all of your impressionable children to MY ingate over at the local schooling show because they will learn FAR MORE watching me introduce my young horses to what horse show flowers look like than they ever would getting led astray by the sight of John French make a complete hash of his eq in the international hunter derby.

Excuse me while I brace myself for the stampede.

Loves it!!

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
no, i really didnt, but you should give yourself a pat on the back for all your hard work... :lol:

You have no clue. :lol:

How did you not contradict yourself?

:confused:

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:13 PM
How did you not contradict yourself?

:confused:

I was being sarcastic when i said she had no clue.. repeating what she said :)

wanderlust
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:16 PM
Hey you look awesome to me! :) Meatandpotatoes, I got a good chuckle out of your example. The equitation queens here, however, are still missing the point. I used to try to make them understand, but they don't want to.

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:16 PM
I was being sarcastic when i said she had no clue.. repeating what she said :)

Okay, but you didn't answer my question.

magnolia73
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:24 PM
I find it amazing.....

But here is the deal.... HUNTERS are judged on the HORSE. How the HORSE looks. You enter a hunter class. The horse needs to look good. You can look like shit. But you'd better ride in a way that makes the horse look good. All those trainers with crappy eq are paid because they make the horse look good. Why should they change their highly effective ride and risk the horse NOT looking good?

At the end of the day.... we all have free will though. I can go to Peter Pletcher, be offended by his ducking and go have Denny Emerson show my hunter (well, I don't know if I could pay him enough, but I digress). If it bothers you SO MUCH then go ride with a trainer that looks like an image from the 1964 Maclay Finals. Go watch Rolex tapes for equitation pointers. Go to the USEF and try to get them to modify how hunters are judged to account for rider style.

But really, stop coming here and complaining about how crappy hunter pros ride unless you yourself can do it better.

tallygirl
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:27 PM
let me clarify what i meant.. since this is going in a train wreck way for absolutely NO reason. It isnt that i disagree with a lot of you. I understand hunters is based off the horse and they do whatever they can to make the ride look easy, etc. I rode hunters for many years, i understand, trust me :winkgrin:. I am not claiming to be an eq princess but when i show I try and have good eq no matter what I am doing. I have a really bad back and sometimes thats hard but I try to make my eq look good.

I am sure these Pro trainers instill this in their students all the time which is why these ammies ride so well.
I understand that making your horse go soft and with a good pace to a fence and worrying about your eq is hard. whoever said riding was not a hard sport anyways? But i feel like you can have half way decent eq without you flying like superman on top of your horse. ie your legs over your horses tush. I am not saying I should change their riding style because obviously they are winning, i would just like to see them maybe care about their eq a little bit even when riding hunters. When your kid looks at you and says "mommy why are his legs out in the air?" what do you say to them? "they dont care in this discipline so ride however you like?"

tear me apart all you want. :)

magnolia73
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:31 PM
When your kid looks at you and says "mommy why are his legs out in the air?" what do you say to them? "they dont care in this discipline so ride however you like?"



So do it for the children????

Tha Ridge
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:43 PM
let me clarify what i meant.. since this is going in a train wreck way for absolutely NO reason. It isnt that i disagree with a lot of you. I understand hunters is based off the horse and they do whatever they can to make the ride look easy, etc. I rode hunters for many years, i understand, trust me :winkgrin:. I am not claiming to be an eq princess but when i show I try and have good eq no matter what I am doing. I have a really bad back and sometimes thats hard but I try to make my eq look good.

I am sure these Pro trainers instill this in their students all the time which is why these ammies ride so well.
I understand that making your horse go soft and with a good pace to a fence and worrying about your eq is hard. whoever said riding was not a hard sport anyways? But i feel like you can have half way decent eq without you flying like superman on top of your horse. ie your legs over your horses tush. I am not saying I should change their riding style because obviously they are winning, i would just like to see them maybe care about their eq a little bit even when riding hunters. When your kid looks at you and says "mommy why are his legs out in the air?" what do you say to them? "they dont care in this discipline so ride however you like?"

tear me apart all you want. :)

Caylei? Is that you???

Everythingbutwings
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:47 PM
The lack of punctuation and increasing use of capitalization would indicate that...

I find it surprising that so many current Pros are past winners of the Maclay medal. I mean, with Pros not being able to equitate and all. :D

Trixie
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:54 PM
I find it surprising that so many current Pros are past winners of the Maclay medal. I mean, with Pros not being able to equitate and all.

Didn't Kelly Farmer win the Maclay?

I mean, how is that possible? (http://www.equestrianlife.com/images/uploads/listen.jpg) It's obvious she has no skill. (http://equestriansport.com/images/KFarmer3.11.10.jpg)

Pretty sure even Richard Spooner (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/Spooner%20and%20Quirino%203%20Todd.jpg)once won the USET West Medal (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3405/3503442890_234661a183.jpg).

Good lord. Clearly, we all ride better than THAT.

hntrjmprpro45
Mar. 25, 2011, 12:56 PM
I am sure these Pro trainers instill this in their students all the time which is why these ammies ride so well.
I understand that making your horse go soft and with a good pace to a fence and worrying about your eq is hard. whoever said riding was not a hard sport anyways? But i feel like you can have half way decent eq without you flying like superman on top of your horse. ie your legs over your horses tush. I am not saying I should change their riding style because obviously they are winning, i would just like to see them maybe care about their eq a little bit even when riding hunters. When your kid looks at you and says "mommy why are his legs out in the air?" what do you say to them? "they dont care in this discipline so ride however you like?"

You say "Well honey, you don't have to look good to ride effectively. Period. End of story." I know it's disappointing to hear, but trainers like Richard Spooner haven't had a successful career due to money or luck, its becuase they are talented and have their own riding style that is quite successful for them.

Equitation is not the be all and end all of riding effectively. It is helpful for building a foundation for beginners to develop BUT people need to realize that good riding can come from many different styles.

In fact in one eq clinic I went to, someone asked Missy Clark if she taught all her students to basically ride to the same ideal. She said she liked to let each student develop their own style so long as they were effective. Even GM has noted that many professionals deviate from classical equitation but are still successful because of their years of experience while developing that style.

meupatdoes
Mar. 25, 2011, 01:05 PM
So do it for the children????

Well, I don't know about you, but all the announcers play "We Are The World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcwblvqir-s)" when I enter the ring.

SunkenMeadow
Mar. 25, 2011, 01:14 PM
What I want to know is where she gets the idea that the pro horses only cost $ 100K LOL!

Well they may have cost 100k when the pro got them, but they are worth at least 5x that now! lmao!

SunkenMeadow
Mar. 25, 2011, 01:17 PM
Well, I don't know about you, but all the announcers play "We Are The World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcwblvqir-s)" when I enter the ring.


Lucky you, all they play for me is that F-ing Perfect song by Pink :winkgrin::cool::lol:

ktm2007
Mar. 25, 2011, 01:29 PM
I am not saying that at all. If you read above I stated that I hardly even show anymore am really just enjoying my horses now... I dont go out and judge all these peoples rides etc. I enjoy my riding time/my horses/my riding friends and just aim to have a good time. The only thing ive been doing is some little dressage shows here and there these days. I dont think im gods gift to riding by any means. when i did show i pinned well but i just don't really care about all that anymore. Again my point is that regardless if you are judged on equitation i think no matter what english discipline you are in you SHOULD have good equitation, or atleast TRY too. This again is MY opinion. If you dont feel the same way thats fine. I am not gonna sit here and banter your opinions. There is nothing to be snarky about. i have an opinion about something, you dont agree, big deal. Move on. And yes Ive been to many many many A shows. I only go to support my friends now as I am not too involved in the show scene anymore. :)

I bolded the interesting parts to me.

I'm confused a little, because you say you don't show, and you don't go out and judge how people are riding.....so where are you coming up with the argument that (some? a lot? I'm not really sure what you think) top pro riders fly around like superman? It sounds like you are forming your opinion based on looking at pictures. Is that correct?

If that's true, I would encourage you to watch some of those top pro riders that you are calling superman, either on video or actually go watch them. The bigger "picture" may become more apparent to you.

MyGiantPony
Mar. 25, 2011, 01:34 PM
So do it for the children????

OMG iced tea *choking* spewage on screen. :lol:

MyGiantPony
Mar. 25, 2011, 01:38 PM
Lucky you, all they play for me is that F-ing Perfect song by Pink :winkgrin::cool::lol:

I get that Wicked Witch of the West music.

Or maybe that's all in my head? :lol:

ktm2007
Mar. 25, 2011, 01:39 PM
OMG iced tea *choking* spewage on screen. :lol:

I had the same reaction....except I'm drinking coffee!

RugBug
Mar. 25, 2011, 02:31 PM
OK, everyone really ought to cancel their Tommy Serio slots and get behind the velvet rope to clinic with me instead because unlike his sloppy self *I* am a role model for future generations.

I mean, compare this travesty (http://www.floridahorse.com/2008WEF/images/01.16.08KSmith.jpg) with this stellar example (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/meupatdoes/10Q2-0395FB.jpg).

So please, if you know what's good for them, send all of your impressionable children to MY ingate over at the local schooling show because they will learn FAR MORE watching me introduce my young horses to what horse show flowers look like than they ever would getting led astray by the sight of John French making a complete hash of his eq in the international hunter derby.

Excuse me while I brace myself for the stampede.

So, tallygirl answer me this.
Would you prefer to lesson with me or with John French (http://www.waldenbrookfarm.com/gallery/gallery11/french_crown_jump.jpg)?
Do you think you would learn more watching me negotiate a course or Scott Stewart (http://horsesinthesouth.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ScottStewartInclusive1Yr.jpg)?
Would you rather have me train your hunter prospect or have Louise Serio (https://www.usef.org/_AUAIFrames/Pressbox/images/topstory/6658.jpg) do it? (Assume we'd both generously do it for free.)

Please explain after giving your choices why you chose who you did and what considerations weighed most heavily in your decision.

Perfect!


Hey you look awesome to me! :)

And that, dear, is why you don't get it.




So do it for the children????Well, I don't know about you, but all the announcers play "We Are The World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcwblvqir-s)" when I enter the ring.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

tallygirl: you go ride 7-10 horse a day everyday, teach lessons, etc and then decide if you are going to make a huge effort to have "proper equitation" in every single class when you know you don't have to and it's all about the horse.

Think of it this way: Teachers work with elementary school kids on penmanship. Kids are graded on it. In middle school and highschool, you still need to be close to standards and it better be legible but you're not graded on it any longer. You can develop your own flair. Once you get out of high school, all bets are off. You can do whatever you want with your writing, including chicken scratch that no one without a secret decoder ring will ever decipher. You can even stop writing altogether and type every written piece of communication from there on out. As long as you can communicate, no one gives a rip.

The A circuit pros are communicating, very eloquently as a matter of fact. They may be writing in chicken scratch but they are writing poetry, whereas an ammie may be writing with perfect penmanship and doing a rendition of "Dick and Jane."

Tha Ridge
Mar. 25, 2011, 02:53 PM
The A circuit pros are communicating, very eloquently as a matter of fact. They may be writing in chicken scratch but they are writing poetry, whereas an ammie may be writing with perfect penmanship and doing a rendition of "Dick and Jane."

This is a nice analogy. Would Ulysses be any less of a masterpiece simply because James Joyce's handwriting was sloppy?

Flashy Gray VA
Mar. 25, 2011, 02:57 PM
Think of it this way: Teachers work with elementary school kids on penmanship. Kids are graded on it. In middle school and highschool, you still need to be close to standards and it better be legible but you're not graded on it any longer. You can develop your own flair. Once you get out of high school, all bets are off. You can do whatever you want with your writing, including chicken scratch that no one without a secret decoder ring will ever decipher.

The A circuit pros are communicating, very eloquently as a matter of fact. They may be writing in chicken scratch but they are writing poetry, whereas an ammie may be writing with perfect penmanship and doing a rendition of "Dick and Jane."

Rug, you beat me to it. The penmanship analogy is perfect for illustrating the difference here. :)

MHM
Mar. 25, 2011, 03:42 PM
I get that Wicked Witch of the West music.

Or maybe that's all in my head? :lol:

My theme song! :lol:

doublesstable
Mar. 26, 2011, 01:53 AM
In reading through all this and understand it just made me laugh. Everyone rides different... everyone thinks different. It works for some, it doesn't work for others. I totally understand the points being made and from a distance they are pretty simple and make sense - I just see (or should I say read) a lot of misunderstandings going on.....

There are many sides to "this" coin and there is not just right or wrong, black or white..... Everyone has a point in this conversation and that's why it's frustrating people....

I have seen some riders in the Hunter world that should not being doing things they see trying to replicate the big dogs. I did question my trainer years ago about this very style of riding we are discussing here and he said - not everyone is capable of riding like that and that there are reasons for using the knee, or leaning to one side etc..... Once over a jump I gave a huge release on a single fence and my trainer said - oh I love it, you look just like a trainer. LOL.

And I didn't read that anyone is beating up or comparing themselves to John French.... IMHO.. (shrug)

@ meupatdoes - My comment on the critiques; clearly I missunderstood - I understand your point after your clarification. And I would NEVER critique John French or the like because again, if I had the talent in "one" pinky that he has I would be a happy gal......

@tallygirl - yeah in LA but too much rain lately to ride I think thats why I am in a mood today! Waiting for sun!!!!

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Mar. 26, 2011, 02:27 AM
What wins is the horse who had the best course of that day. If that horse has a monkey on his back, it doesn't actually matter as long as the monkey paid all the appropriate USEF fees and is wearing an ASTM-approved helmet.[/QUOTE]

Politics aside, YES. And if you're a monkey and this is what you want to spend your hard-earned dollars doing- more power to you.


There are a lot of top jumper riders who do the crest release (Mclain Ward, for one). I hardly think it is impossible to have a correct position with it.

The crest release and a bastardized version of it are two completely different things.

Carry on... anyone want popcorn?

I really, really do want some popcorn.

Must say, I'm a big fan of the crest release. I'm all for a bit more balance and stability, weather on a young horse, a powerful jumper, or in a situation that makes me a little worried and some extra security is comforting. Disclaimer: I'm not perfect and my hands are likely the weakest part of my position o/f. I spend a lot of time working on it, thinking about it, flatting with different exercises to help correct it, and I think I'm improving.

doublesstable
Mar. 26, 2011, 02:33 AM
...I really, really do want some popcorn.

Must say, I'm a big fan of the crest release. I'm all for a bit more balance and stability, weather on a young horse, a powerful jumper, or in a situation that makes me a little worried and some extra security is comforting. Disclaimer: I'm not perfect and my hands are likely the weakest part of my position o/f. I spend a lot of time working on it, thinking about it, flatting with different exercises to help correct it, and I think I'm improving.


I love watching the big jumper riders or even a well ridden Eq or Hunter round on video.... And watch their releases - the great rounds have a mix depending on what is needed at that time.

I too have always done a crest release but find now that I am finally stabilizing my leg (on horses that actually allow me to use my lower legs - lol) I find following the mouth forward and down as the horse jumps is WAY COOL! It feels awesome... I am finding more and more consistency about it... so yay!

:)

Silk
Mar. 27, 2011, 07:10 PM
Ummmmmmm, who do you think is training all these good riding ammies of which you speak???

Most likely the "praying mantis" pro that you are criticizing!!

Yes!! Exactly :)

SnicklefritzG
Mar. 27, 2011, 08:31 PM
^^ Well just because Zorak is famous and has bad posture doesn't mean that his guests on "Space Ghost" should display the same bad "praying mants" posture.

bad posture = bad posture. period. If it wouldn't make it past GM in his magazine critiques, then it shouldn't be used in the show ring.

Big_Grey_hunter
Mar. 27, 2011, 08:47 PM
^^ Well just because Zorak is famous and has bad posture doesn't mean that his guests on "Space Ghost" should display the same bad "praying mants" posture.

bad posture = bad posture. period. If it wouldn't make it past GM in his magazine critiques, then it shouldn't be used in the show ring.

:rolleyes: That's all I'll say.

SnicklefritzG
Mar. 27, 2011, 09:49 PM
^^Oh, so I see you don't like Praying Mantis' any more than anybody else, on horses or not. lol.

alterhorse
Mar. 27, 2011, 10:39 PM
Where's all the discussion of biomechanics, physics, and behavioral theory, etc., etc., isn't that an absolute requisite of such a topic?

Horses and people are both capable of developing adaptive behaviors to repetitive stimuli.

Maybe what you're all really trying to say is that there are quite a few riders out there who lack a solid foundation in horsemanship who are riding a fair number of horses who are lacking education and or ability, and neither is doing each other any favors?

If a rider develops a superman posture, and the horse has learnt to use that resulting center of gravity in a fashion that gives that horse a desirable appearance over a fence, and that was the goal, and the rider doesn't fall off, then what's to hate?

I'd say the true sin occurs when a rider unaware of all the technicalities that encompass the foundations of excellent horsemanship, just mimics what the rider sees, and attempts to emulate it without understanding the multitude of reasons why the things the rider sees are being done by the skilled rider in the first place.

How many riders attempt to put their horse into a false frame because they want to try emulate what they see?

The foundation begins with balance, and excellent equitation training with your leg under you is the best place to begin to acquire the knowledge and skills to become a centered and balanced rider.

The horse in training requires the knowledge and skills of a centered and balanced rider to in turn develop that horse's abilities without encumberment.

As long as the rider is capable of understanding or innately "feeling", the equations of mass, physics, geometry, and motion, how they use them to influence a horse should be up to the rider, no?

I think otherwise were just debating fashion and not horsemanship. Especially if you're going to form judgments from still photos!

IMHO, pretty is what pretty does.