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pwynnnorman
Apr. 1, 2004, 03:49 AM
I don't have much hope for this, but the threads about holding up the ring, pricing pony jumpers and the new association make me wonder if there's any way to put exhibitors into the driver's seat a bit more in this sport.

It is a trainer-driven sport, and that's not necessarily the fault of trainers (but rather of "do-it-for-me" exhibitors, perhaps)...but there are some really frustrating and/or just plain BAD developments in the industry that exist only because trainers won't sign on or won't let go.

Does anyone see any hope for any new governance structure to break up the trainers' stranglehold? Has anyone seen anything in the proposals' by-laws that might do this? And, perhaps more importantly, is the issue just a matter of "representation" on committees--or is it too systemic to be effected by that?

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

pwynnnorman
Apr. 1, 2004, 03:49 AM
I don't have much hope for this, but the threads about holding up the ring, pricing pony jumpers and the new association make me wonder if there's any way to put exhibitors into the driver's seat a bit more in this sport.

It is a trainer-driven sport, and that's not necessarily the fault of trainers (but rather of "do-it-for-me" exhibitors, perhaps)...but there are some really frustrating and/or just plain BAD developments in the industry that exist only because trainers won't sign on or won't let go.

Does anyone see any hope for any new governance structure to break up the trainers' stranglehold? Has anyone seen anything in the proposals' by-laws that might do this? And, perhaps more importantly, is the issue just a matter of "representation" on committees--or is it too systemic to be effected by that?

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

M. O'Connor
Apr. 1, 2004, 05:34 AM
huh?

Are you saying that trainers=bad?

I think you are oversimplifying a myriad of economic dynamics that drive the sport by labeling "trainers" as the ultimate bad influence...

Only a balanced representation of all concerned will result in a balanced outcome--there are "bads" in all sectors; who do you think finances "bad" trainers, and why do you think others are so willing to give in to their demands?

My point being that these situations do not develop just because "trainers are the bad guys." There are plenty of others to blame.

The problem is that there are very few neutral parties in the sport, and those, defacto, are not influential.

Maybe a better approach would be to focus on the positive factors that exist and devise a way to allow these to flourish, instead of focusing so much effort and attention on the negatives.

MCL

wtywmn4
Apr. 1, 2004, 06:15 AM
EDUCATION plain and simple. Owners need to educate themselves. Read, listen and learn. The more you know, the better you will be. (sorry for the cliche) Talk to your vets, talk to your blacksmiths, go to shows and just watch. You don't have to show to learn. Buy books that will educate you to equitation, hunters, veterinary medicine, course designing, shoeing etc. Instead of dumping everything on the trainer, take some responsibility. Am a firm believer in a hands on owner. This is your investment, both in the horse and in training. With better education prospective or current owners can ask questions that will lead to a more realistic partnership with their trainer. And please, don't tell me you don't have the time. You do, make the time. There's more to riding and ownership than walking into the ring.

dirtgirl
Apr. 1, 2004, 06:19 AM
Yup, the more you know, the more you can informed decisions for yourself and your horse. Trainers are not necessaily "bad guys" but they will make decisions that work for them that, in the long run, may not be best for you. Having said that - I have seen many horse owners who I knew had doubts just keep blindly trusting their trainers because they didn't want to deal with a situation themselves.

becca's boys
Apr. 1, 2004, 06:29 AM
Thank you M.O'Connor! Any argument that places the majority of burdens and faults onto just one group is....well...stupid.

Come on...lets try to be a part of the solution and help open lines of communication between all parties involved in our sport. Clients, riders, trainers, instructors, barn owners, horse owners, show management, vets, organization leaders, judges, stewards, junior riders, parents, breeders, recreational riders, local show and breed organizations, and so on....they ALL have their places within this sport and they all deserve respect! Instead of whining about who to blame why don't you sit down and figure out what each group has to offer before you post something so unconstructive.

I think we all agree that horse sports have many issues to resolve and many factions to please...finger pointing is not going to get anyone anywhere. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sorry, not feeling very patient this morning!

Flash44
Apr. 1, 2004, 07:43 AM
I was such a wimp years ago, whatever someone suggested I agreed to just to avoid even the slightest controversy.

However, in my grumpy old age, I've realized that I don't have to do whatever a professional suggests, whether it be a horse trainer, a show manager, a people doctor, a salesperson, etc. I can go to another professional or just do nothing. It took me a really long time to learn how to say "no." Now I say it a lot.

THE OWNERS ARE PAYING THE BILLS. What is a trainer without any clients? Vote with your pocketbook and your feet. Support those who run their businesses to your standards, whether it be a small local show or whatever.

khobstetter
Apr. 1, 2004, 08:04 AM
I absolutely disagree...

This sport is in the hands of the owners now!!!

Owners drive this sport..they want to win!!! It's truly that simple.

Owners shop trainers until they find one that will make blue ribbons adorn their walls at all costs......and then they spend the money to get all that blue..

And then the average WONDERFUL everyday rider trys to step to the ring and have a "sporting" chance at the ribbons....yeah right!!!

Because there is so much of that, it has brought the dishonest, "bad", difficult trainers to the top who are really HAPPY HAPPY to take the money and put the blue ribbons there.

It's the owner who MUST have that Zone award...who MUST be on the Horse if the Year charts...who MUST march up the aisle at the banquets...who must have a VERY quiet horse to ride for each lesson...who wants to walk in the ring and WIN WIN WIN but only ride once a week...AND SO ON.

IMHO that is what brings out the bad here.....a WIN WIN WIN driven sport...at any cost.

There are "scoundrals" in ALL industrys but with the priority on all these "year end points" it has all gone hay wire and is spinning out of control.

We have all these banquets and awards presentations all over this country and it rewards only one thing...THE GUY WITH THE MONEY...and trainers have to keep up IF they want to keep those clients. EVEN DOWN TO THE LOCAL ASSOCIATIONS.

The only way to march up that aisle and get the HUGE year end ribbons and award is with money..either the money to BUY the horse that will win every time..or the money to pound poor "Spot" into the ground every week to get enough points to beat the horse that wins every time and doesn't have to go as much.

It takes us months and months and sometimes years to get the honest hunter to the ring...and then we have to show against the "helped" ones. We still win BUT it takes a special client to be patient enough to do it the right way and those clients are few and far between because of the $$$$$ time costs...its easier to get there faster with "help".

And the clients want to march up that aisle!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats all folks....PLEASE get together and change that!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Marcella
Apr. 1, 2004, 10:08 AM
I have to agree with the fact that people want to win and are setting the prices for the horses. A horse is only worth as much as someone will write a check for. I can say my horse is worth 500,000 but if I couldn't sell him for that, he isn't really worth it.

If you want to do it yourself, you can. Nobody is stopping you. The only person giving power to trainers is the owners and riders who feel they cannot do anything without the trainer.

It is awful many trainers think they are gods and goddesses and hold the rings up at the shows, but that is more of show management's issue of getting on them to move along.

I guess I am trying to say that trainers only have as much power as you permit them to have. For me, they have none as I do everything myself and have gotten into fights with trainers at shows that start rearranging my jumps I am in the middle of schooling over. You yell at them enough, they'll back down.

"What are you liberals so afraid of?"--Anne Colter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mmreca

Bumpkin
Apr. 1, 2004, 10:24 AM
There is nothing worse than seeing grown women who cannot even buy their jeans without asking their trainer what kind to buy.

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

PineTreeFarm
Apr. 1, 2004, 10:30 AM
noodle doodle said:
"If you want to do it yourself, you can. Nobody is stopping you. The only person giving power to trainers is the owners and riders who feel they cannot do anything without the trainer."

I agree with that statement 100%.
I've never had a trainer. Instead, I've used an instructor and met a coach at regional shows. I select and buy my horses myself with the advice of my instructor. No agents, deal direct with the owner.

Knobstetter said:
"We have all these banquets and awards presentations all over this country and it rewards only one thing...THE GUY WITH THE MONEY...and trainers have to keep up IF they want to keep those clients. EVEN DOWN TO THE LOCAL ASSOCIATIONS."

I disagree with this. Sure, at the National level you are probably right. At the zone level it's not true.

Most of the trainers I know are good horsemen. They are in a profession to make a living and need training fees and commissions to do so. Some people do need a trainer.

Point being, not everybody needs a trainer to be able to show but many trainers would like to convince us that we can't function without one.

ponyjumper4
Apr. 1, 2004, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I disagree with this. Sure, at the National level you are probably right. At the zone level it's not true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with that and agree with knobstetter.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
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whalo
Apr. 1, 2004, 10:54 AM
Being a trainers daughter this topic offends me.

"You yell at them enough, they'll back down."

Wow what are we talking about here hired dogs?

Black Market Radio
Apr. 1, 2004, 11:09 AM
whalo, EVERYTHING offends you...

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
You have got to be the WORST Pirate I have ever heard of.
Ah, but you HAVE heard of me!

amrose3
Apr. 1, 2004, 11:33 AM
If someone feels they need to wrestle the sport back from trainers it is their own fault. Horse owners need to educate themselves about what is going on with thier animals and not just sit back and expect someone else to take care of everything. You need to talk with your vet or blacksmith and your trainer if there is a problem so can be part of the decision of what path you want to take with your horse. The same goes with your horse showing goals. If you aren't going to communicate your goals with your trainer then it is no ones fault but your own.
I am not a trainer but I do have one. Just like any sport if you want to be competitive you need to have a coach. As in every sport there are good and bad instructors. You can only make the decision of what kind of trainer yours is if you are involved. If you want someone to do all the work for you then you can't complain about being dependent on them.
There are also many people out there who are competitive but are not big $$ people. They just know what it takes to get there because they have to be educated and do alot of the work themselves.
I do have a question tho....I am curious regarding the suspended trainers. Did the owners of the tested horses know they were not complying with USA rules or did they just let the trainers do what they want?

Member/Founder of the "Well Endowed Craniums Clique"

Janet
Apr. 1, 2004, 12:27 PM
I really don't think the "holding up the ring" issue can be laid completely at teh feet of teh trainiers.

Every timne this isue comes up, an number of riders make the (legitimate) point that "I am paying to have my trainer's expert advice before going into the ring, and expert critique afterwards. Therefore _I_ don't want to go into the ring if my trainer isn't there."

Yes, some of the trainers "encourage dependance", and some of these issues are not as prevalent in other disciplines.

But I don't think it is fair to "blame the trainers".

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Bellevista Farm
Apr. 1, 2004, 12:37 PM
I think trainers should have a license to train from the local associate level to AA rated shows. They will get licensed at the level they are capable of passing. They would have to take an instructor's test, and a stable test. Just like the race horse trainers.

I think that would be a better step than more policing trainers at shows and fining them.

If riders and owners complain about the trainer then his license gets taken away. Bad trainers would be weeded out. Good trainers would stay. Young up and coming trainers that are studious would be awarded a license.

A rider could then train with a trainer at their level and move up and on. Or start with the best if they can afford the best.

RugBug
Apr. 1, 2004, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sillyponies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I disagree with this. Sure, at the National level you are probably right. At the zone level it's not true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with that and agree with knobstetter.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Add me to that list. Especially after watching someone come to our local association shows who rides on the "A" circuit and then use her nice eq horse to win the medal final and tack shop gift certificate. I remember watching her rounds and thinking, 'Wow, what an awesome rider,' and now all I think is 'how sad she had to ride in that class just to win.' I suppose she could've been using the smaller circuit to tune the horse up, but it smacked of loading the deck in her favor. Bring your green horses to the local shows, but don't compete in something where you will simply blow away the competition just because you can.

I also agree with the majority of khobstetter's post. Trainers have to fight to keep clients these days. It surprises me how often people change barns and trainers. I've only ridden with two trainers my entire life. (I understand changing for certain reasons...unsafe facilities, drugging, padding bills, etc...but seems the slightest offense is enough to make people move). Each trainer has had their strengths and weaknesses, but I recognize them and don't expect them to be perfect.

The responsibility for our sport belongs with everyone involved (owners, riders, grooms, show management, associations, judges, etc.) not just trainers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

Marcella
Apr. 1, 2004, 12:58 PM
Yes, when trainers come and steal my jumps that I am in the middle of clearly schooling over, i.e. the time I was yelling I was coming over the oxer when some trainer was adjusting it for her student, you need to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. I have been yelled at many a time by a trainer out in the schooling ring, asking me where my trainer was because I shouldn't be schooling without them there. If you yell right back at them, they back down and leave you alone. If you cower in fear, they think they are the ones in charge. Well, they are not. I am, as is everyone else who has said the one who writes the check.

I didn't say your daughter needed this, nor did I mention all trainers need it. Some have a huge attitude and need it broken down by the small guy. If I am the one to do it, so be it.

"What are you liberals so afraid of?"--Anne Colter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mmreca

findeight
Apr. 1, 2004, 01:00 PM
Trainers are professionals who depend on the income they derive from horses to feed themselves and their families...that is how they live.

Waiting at a ring because of stupid decisions on schedualing from show management really isn't the point here...it's a perception that pros are somehow "controlling" the sport and we ammies have to get it back.
Pony jumpers likewise are no fault of the pros
Just that the division languishes due to lack of interest and/or lack of kids small enough.seems when those 8 year olds finally grow and get strong, they are to darn tall http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Parents don't want to buy Pony Jumpers for the kiddies and that's not the trainers fault either
Whole idea of having to "wrest control" from the pros is BOGUS..and that's just MHO.

But I have been a very hands on owner for 37 years now...and didn't always have a trainer, in fact used to break colts and rehab spoiled ones since I had no money. Been in most of the breeds and disciplines too.

We have nothing to fear from trainers...and that idea of licensing them? Has some merit but who in hades is going to set up a nationwide, multidiscipline regulatory agency? And who the Hell is going to pay for it?

I'm not. Why? Because some of the worst overall "horseman" I've ever seen had a certificate from some agency or other...or a degree that said they knew what they were doing when they didn't know where the used food came out.

I know you don't want to hear it but I depend on my trainer..and I know enough to challenge her, or leave if I deem it necessary.

No. Good trainers have very little to do with what is wrong in the sport. Have to say that more people then ever are able to participate in this sport and there is more right them wrong.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Marcella
Apr. 1, 2004, 01:03 PM
I am not trainer bashing, as there are many wonderful ones out there that do a wonderful job displaying their expertise. I love to watch a good professional ride.

Again, if you let them take advantage of you, as any person, they will keep doing it. If you make your own decisions and your trainer doesn't respect that, find someone who does.

Being a trainer is a business. Those who act like it do a really good job. Those who do hold their clients' hands end up having to do a harder job to keep them around because that client is looking for someone else who could possibly do a better job holding their hand.

"What are you liberals so afraid of?"--Anne Colter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mmreca

amrose3
Apr. 1, 2004, 01:09 PM
Great post noodle doodle

Member/Founder of the "Well Endowed Craniums Clique"

Flash44
Apr. 1, 2004, 01:11 PM
I actually had a trainer tell me he was "using" a jump in the schooling ring when I was trying to warm up. I had actually jumped it once when he came over and started "using" it. There were only 2 jumps, the other was a cross rail. I told him that I was using it too, which seemed to surprise him. Another trainer actually chuckled.

RugBug
Apr. 1, 2004, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by noodle doodle:
Being a trainer is a business. Those who act like it do a really good job. Those who do hold their clients' hands end up having to do a harder job to keep them around because that client is looking for someone else who could possibly do a better job holding their hand.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I agree that being a trainer is a business, you just can't take the hand holding out of the equation. Riding is a high pressure sport. Many people need extra encouragement to ride/compete successfully. Trainers have to walk a fine line of being the professional but also being the friend/encourager/psychologist.

As with any service industry, people will always be wondering if someone else is "doing it better." That's just a fact of life. Trainers have to draw the line of how far they are willing to go to keep people from leaving. As long as people continue "shopping" for better trainers for unsubstantial reasons (i.e. more results, quicker results, etc.) some will drawn that line in the grey areas.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

findeight
Apr. 1, 2004, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
I actually had a trainer tell me he was "using" a jump in the schooling ring when I was trying to warm up. I had actually jumped it once when he came over and started "using" it. There were only 2 jumps, the other was a cross rail. I told him that I was using it too, which seemed to surprise him. Another trainer actually chuckled.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, there are AOs all over..and I don't mean Amateur Owners.

Not only don't my trainers ever hog the jumps in a shared schooling ring...I'd have a verbal piece of that jackass myself.

Again...something like this doesn't scream for eliminating the pros.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

pwynnnorman
Apr. 1, 2004, 01:29 PM
Uhmmm...excuse me? Did NO ONE read this statement from my original post:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is a trainer-driven sport, and that's not necessarily the fault of trainers (but rather of "do-it-for-me" exhibitors, perhaps)... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saying it is trainer driven is a long way from laying every problem at the feet or trainers, folks.

Saying it is trainer-driven is stating a FACT. For example, if trainers "signed on" to pony jumpers, there'd be a decent division there. They don't, so there isn't.

Owners do not get involved enough in rule making, that, too, is a fact. Why? Because trainers and show managers have an incentive to maintain rules that enable their businesses to survive--owners don't. Without some incentive, in this country and in this "era", nobody does nuthin.

I agree wholeheartedly with anyone making the argument about trainers having to do what it takes to stay in business (it amazes me how short-term the collective memory of some posters can be since I've taken that stand time after time after time).

Indeed, I dare say, sadly, that I suspect the response to this thread illustrates exactly why it is a trainer-driven sport. Some of you just parrot whatever you last heard without actually putting much thought to any complexities that exist. Others are quick to jump on the "there's more to it that than" bandwagon--and then turn around and use that mode to transport themselves into "its simple, just do THIS" city.

Silly people. Just about every post here responded with such obviousness--it's like smoking (I'm reading Kyle Mills' book "Smoke Screen" right now)...or over-medicating horses, in fact. Guess what the response to those issues have always been: EDUCATE YOURSELF.

And yet we all know that that doesn't happen. That isn't reality. YOU people here, because you choose to entertain yourselves by blathering on in these threads, are at least more conscious of issues, etc. But you then proceed to act like EVERYONE is or should be just like you, when in actuality, folks, I dare say that you (WE, really) most definitely do NOT represent the majority of people in this business.

Let me repeat that: people who post on BBs do are not representatives of trainers or clients in the industry.

So, while it may seem "obvious" to you that the "solution" (that one almost makes me laugh) to every problem in this industry is "education," (rather than a systemic issue that might be addressed through the foresight of a progressive-thinking, representative and empowered group of industry decision-makers), that is probably as silly and shallow a presumption as many of you were so quick to assume my initial post was.

Just about every issue in the industry is a complex one, but ask yourself this: WHO ADDRESSES THE ISSUES? Who, folks? When issues are out there, who handles them?

YOU?

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

Bumpkin
Apr. 1, 2004, 01:43 PM
pwynnnorman, I wish I knew.
I came back into this after years of being away, and I am astounded on the level of trainers, and the total "Sheeple" attitude of so many owners.
Yes they love their horses and want the best for them, but they put so much more trust and faith into having someone else do everything for them, it makes you wonder why they even have a horse.

What I really hate hearing, (when an owner is taken advantage of, even though if the owner even knew the very basic care of a horse and should have seen the problem waaaaaaaaaaay before it became a major problem), is "well, thats the way it is done with Hunter's"!!!???....
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
As if all Hunter owners just get on and ride their course and hand the horse off to a groom or trainer and don't even know how to tack a horse up.

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

findeight
Apr. 1, 2004, 02:25 PM
Well, from one of the "silly people", perhaps this new representitive organization might equalize the playing field...having representitives from each level-from show managers to Adults to Pros...or maybe it won't.
Who knows.

But my opinions are based on my experience, 75% being without any formal trainer, and I resent your implication that I am "parroting what I last heard". I don't do that. I speak for myself...and if that does agree with longtime pros? There is a reason.

You obviously have never been around for one of my screaming matches with my head trainer-niether one of us holds anything back. Only happened twice in 8 years but it scared the heck out of all who heard. I think that is a good thing, two passionate people butting heads with the goals of horse and rider at stake.
An honest relationship based on a shared mutual goal of excellence....but I am NO follower of any so called guru and would take a hike in a heartbeat if I suspected that.

You know we are all individuals and lumping everybody into convenient categories of blind followers just doesn't get it.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

amrose3
Apr. 1, 2004, 02:52 PM
Maybe I am not getting it but I believe that there is a trainer for everyone. If someone wants their hand held then so be it, that is their business. Everyone is looking for something and I believe that there is someone for everyone. I prefer to have a say in what goes on with my horses. Sometimes I don't always agree with my trainer but I do respect her enough to listen to the reasons why she feels a certain way. Do I always change my mind? NO...but she respects me enough to make the choices I want. Would all trainers want me for a customer? Probably not, but that is why this horse thing is a business and in business there are customers who choose where they want to do thier business. I respect those who are talented enough to be able to train themselves...I am not one of them and recognize this.
Actually for one week and one week only, I would love for someone to do everything for me. Then I wouldn't have to get up at 5:30AM feed my horses, muck stalls, hook the trailer up, wrap, load and haul my horses to lessons. Oh, and if I happen to be going to a show..have to braid them, and get up possibly at 4AM to get it all done and be at the show in time to be prepared for my classes. It would truly be a luxury but I would probably miss the work too much!

Member/Founder of the "Well Endowed Craniums Clique"

findeight
Apr. 1, 2004, 02:59 PM
You know, I am about the lowest maintainance client in the barn because I selected sombody who followed my standards in care and provides me with the level of instruction and support I need. One who doesn't mind defending her position or allowing me to defend mine.

If that standard is not met??
I am the client from Hell and have no problem being out in 45 minutes, done it too in past-taking other clients with me.

Say again, lumping everybody who works with a trainer into a single category is a real mistake.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Bellevista Farm
Apr. 1, 2004, 03:16 PM
everyone not just trainers can attend their local, state, regional and AHSA now called USAE meetings and present a proposition.

RugBug
Apr. 1, 2004, 03:35 PM
what a great way to get people to reply to your thread and think about the issue....berate them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
&lt;snip&gt;it amazes me how short-term the collective memory of some posters can be&lt;snip&gt;

,snip&gt;Some of you just parrot whatever you last heard without actually putting much thought to any complexities that exist. Others are quick to jump on the "there's more to it that than" bandwagon--and then turn around and use that mode to transport themselves into "its simple, just do THIS" city.&lt;snip&gt;

&lt;snip&gt;Silly people. Just about every post here responded with such obviousness--,snip&gt;

&lt;snip&gt;that is probably as silly and shallow a presumption.&lt;snip&gt;

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
(it amazes me how short-term the collective memory of some posters can be since I've taken that stand time after time after time).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got to add that you give yourself too much credit here. I recognize your name...but as to what "stands" you've taken...I haven't a clue...even if you've taken them time after time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sorry, but I see this as more self-help issue. Nothings going to change until the majority wants it to change. There is a whole slew of people who are quite content with the status quo. They are like drugs addicts...feeling good about their horses and trainers without seeing the monkeys on their backs.

I've personally found myself a trainer who is a no-name but is willing to spend the time making sure my horse is trained correctly. She apologized last night that our plan for him is progressing slower than we had hoped. I commended her for not trying to rush things...if it takes a year of flatwork before my horse starts jumping, so be it. But you won't hear that from a lot of owners...or trainers. We are going to a show on Sunday...just to ride around in the warm-up...which equals no money for her. She's happy to take me so we can give my horse the experience. Again, not a normal view for either the trainer or owner. There are trade-offs to riding with her (she's not strong on equitation but fantastic with how the horse is going) and I gladly make them...because I know we are approaching things correctly (and I am aware enough of my eq to fill in the gaps).

Until that majority (and I agree that this BB does not equal the majority) start seeing the monkeys...most productive changes will be grounded before there is even a chance to see if they will work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

becca's boys
Apr. 1, 2004, 04:33 PM
Okay Pwynnorman...let me get this straight. You are pissed because the pony jumper division is a joke and you think that is the fault of all of the "trainers" out there??

So you have now come to the conclusion that since it was a "trainer" conspiracy to squash the pony jumper division...it is only logical that those evil "trainers" must also be conspiring to take control of the entire sport...one brainwashed customer at a time! Oh yeah...and all of us here posting on COTH are the brainless lemmings...parroting whatever we hear(except for you of course). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

BTW, if you want to get involved in any level of ANY horse sport organization...ummm, YOU CAN!!! MOST of the people involved in big decision making (at both local and international levels) are NOT trainers....In fact, the trainers are as much at the mercy of those in power as you are (if not more, seeing as how their livlihood depends on thriving horse sports). And the trainers are most certainly at the mercy of the customers...so how in the HECK can you argue that the trainers have a stranglehold on this sport?????

If anyone in this industry has any power it is YOU and ME....the CLIENTS!! We can take our money and spend it (or not spend it) however the heck we like. I certainly do not patronize trainers or horse shows that I do not like....do you?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

OLD A/O
Apr. 1, 2004, 04:44 PM
I think the answer is somewhat simple: "If you win they will come."

Barn owners and trainers do not have a company retirement so they need to make as much money as they can while they are still young. Unfortunately, they deal mostly with children and this puts non-horsey parents at a disadvantage.

Trainers do treat non-horsey parents different than horsey parents.

Off the soap box now!!

Linny
Apr. 1, 2004, 04:56 PM
If we are talking about owners getting ripped off, dealing repeatedly with shady characters etc, then self help is the answer.
I work in racing and the subject of how not to get robbed in the purchase of horses arises all the time in racing. The term "horse trader" didn't spring from whole cloth. The fact is that (using the racing model here!) many folks get into horses and check their brains at the door. successful business person meets a "Kentucky Hardboot" trainer and before long he's out $5 million. This guy would not have entered a business arrangement at any level in in primary field without thorough investigation of the venture yet he pours money into racehorses. Why? In order to have that kind of capital he HAS to be somewhat smart! Where did he leave his brain, the credit office at Fasig Tipton???!!!!
The same thing happens in H/J (and presumably onther riding sports) all the time. When things don't make sense to a smart business person they allow an answer like "Thats the way its done" to pacify them. Would they accept that from a fellow businessperson in their field. Most of the people showing on the A circuits got there by being successful at something.

I have a great deal of respect for good trainers. I've been lucky to have worked with a few. My current trainer (if you want to call her that, I'm a horseless lesson student) is very hard working and a great horsewoman. She's had to deal with several clients who have had less than favorable experiences and are very "gun shy" about trainers. IMO the good trainers try to create "horsemen" by which I mean riders who can solve (at least some) of their own problems.
My intent isn't to create "hell clients" and make trainers lives miserable. I do think that riders/owners need to educate themselves. I do think that many riders stay at questionable barns for the wrong reasons. They stay at a level below their skills because the trainer doesn't want to have to work to move them up. This way they keep grabbing ribbons at overmatched rivals. They assume that the devil they know is preferable to the stranger one down the road.
Owners need to ask questions AND trainers need to answer them in a straightforward way. If the answer in unsatisfcatory the client has to probe further. Too many "bad" answers and its time to barn shop.

As far as those who are willing to pay a fortune to to get some satin ribbon and have their name in the COTH, well they'll always be there. If they meet up with a "horse trader" trainer they probably get what they deserve. BTW, if you know of any of the above, looking for a great and honest trainer send them to my trainer. I want her to have big money clients so she stays around and can afford to give me my lessons

The game needs people willing to spend a lot of money. It also needs them to do so judiciously. Support the good trainers and put the bad ones out of business by not patronizing them.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

Flash44
Apr. 2, 2004, 10:44 AM
OLD A/O, I don't have company retirement either, and I've been with my company 10 years. Mr. Flash's is a joke. We are all equally reponsible for our futures, and if we can't earn enough at what we are doing to pay for our retirements, we either need to change jobs, spend less, earn more certifications/qualifications to increas what we make, or just suck it up and live on what is left of social security.

xegeba
Apr. 2, 2004, 11:26 AM
becca, how did you get that Pwynnorman is "pissed off " about Pony Jumpers? She was merely expressing an opinion about why the division is struggling and she's right.

Midge
Apr. 2, 2004, 11:42 AM
Pwynn, I guess I am not sure of the nature of your problem. What part of the industry (and I am assuming you are talking H/J here) is trainer driven and if so who should be driving? What BAD developements exist as a result and do you have any ideas how to change them?

I have to confess, I have not read the pony jumper or the holding up the ring thread so perhaps I am missing a good part of the information. I do remember when chidlrens/adult jumpers started and my immediate reaction was, 'Well, now there's a market for every POS out there.' I would think the same thing would happen eventually with the pony jumpers, which I think would be a positive for most trainers.

*****
Still trying to find the answers to life's persistent questions.

bonstet
Apr. 2, 2004, 03:49 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Midge:

I do remember when chidlrens/adult jumpers started and my immediate reaction was, 'Well, now there's a market for every POS out there.' QUOTE]

Hysterical!

I agree that it's not the trainers' fault - it's the result of clients who just want to win without a single care for the horse or the process. It's the draw of fame, I guess.

Perhaps it's been mentioned in the holding up the in-gate thread, but aren't trainers who hold up the gate just trying to make sure that the judge sees who trains the rider entering the ring? That's not being a power-hungry diva, that's making sure the client gets all the help they can get for the (hoped-for) result: winning (or at least pinning).

xegeba
Apr. 2, 2004, 04:21 PM
Bonstet...what is not the trainers fault? Are you sure every client that shows only cares about the color ribbon he/she gets and doesn't give a crap about their horse?

OLD A/O
Apr. 2, 2004, 07:29 PM
Dear Flash 44-

We are on the same page and I am in total agreement with you. I guess I did not make that clear. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for saying it better than I did!!!

TQ
Apr. 2, 2004, 08:40 PM
There are good trainers and there are bad trainers. There are knowledgeable owners who do a great job and there are owners who think they know it all and abuse their horses out of ignorance. There is something to be said for the people who dedicate their lives to working with the horses full time 7 days a week 365 days a year. Experience is a great teacher. Learning from the best professionals over decades of being in the business means it is not necessary to re-invent the wheel and maybe invent a square one. Knowledgeable horsemen and dedicated, honest trainers are treasures and should be supported and appreciated. Abusive trainers should be avoided.

I walked down a few awards aisles this winter, both national and zone levels. I did not chase points or medicate or abuse my babies. They spent at least 1/2 day in the grass at home every day. We did not attend any shows that would keep them from being happy, healthy babies. Our hunters and jumpers were lightly shown and were consistently successful.

As an owner and breeder and trainer I think it is important to remember that everyone is an individual. There are good and bad trainers and knowledgeable and dedicated owners...there are also owners who don't know near as much as they think they know and their horses suffer. Find people that you trust and allow them to do the best job they can do for you. Do as much as you can do and ask for help and listen to experienced people who know more than you do.

xegeba
Apr. 2, 2004, 09:04 PM
TQ... How does one decide that the trainer knows more... and knows more about what? If we are talking about A circuit clientele, you know as well as anybody that a horse owner who does anything more than pay the bills is a pain in the butt...

TQ
Apr. 3, 2004, 08:35 PM
Actually, I love owners who take an active part and can share in the decisions regarding their horses. I have had some very knowledgeable owners and we have had fun and worked hard together and enjoyed every minute of it all. It feels like we are partners and we can acheive much more working together for the good of their horses and the accomplishment of their goals. It makes the whole thing fun for all concerned.

I have also had some owners who think they know it all and will not listen to reason and end up abusing their horses out of ignorance and it drives me wild.

EqTrainer
Apr. 3, 2004, 08:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
TQ... How does one decide that the trainer knows more... and knows more about what? If we are talking about A circuit clientele, you know as well as anybody that a horse owner who does anything more than pay the bills is a pain in the butt...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason they are often considered a pain in the butt is because they refuse to take the advice of the person who cares for and rides their horse daily. Who else could know the horse better? Certainly not the carrot provider http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There is probably no other profession where amateurs expect to be taken seriously over the professionals they are paying to do the job. A hurtful truth to many owners is that paying the bills DOES NOT mean you know what is best for the horse. It breaks a trainers heart to see a horse she has nurtured and brought along, misunderstood and sometimes inadvertently abused by an owner who stops by a few times a week (if that) to give goodies, dole out the pats, and hop on for a spin around the farm.

Yes there are bad trainers. Yes there are bad clients. My question is, if the owners want to do it themselves then why don't they? IMO it's because they really don't want to get involved in the nitty gritty of training and managing the horse. That's fine.. but let someone else do it and don't begrudge them the money you have to pay to make that happen!

Bumpkin
Apr. 3, 2004, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TQ:
Actually, I love owners who take an active part and can share in the decisions regarding their horses. I have had some very knowledgeable owners and we have had fun and worked hard together and enjoyed every minute of it all. It feels like we are partners and we can acheive much more working together for the good of their horses and the accomplishment of their goals. It makes the whole thing fun for all concerned.

I have also had some owners who think they know it all and will not listen to reason and end up abusing their horses out of ignorance and it drives me wild.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

Hidden Hill Farm
Apr. 4, 2004, 08:02 AM
Well said EqTrainer! Find a trainer you like and you can trust and let him do his job!!! Learn what you can and use the help you're paying for!

Yes, many people want the quick fix or the blue ribbon NOW -- not in 2 years when rider and horse will finally come together as a team. However, creating divisions for them to show in doesn't help the problem. Yes, throwing any POS into the child-adult jumper division, instead of making them earn their right to compete in the jumpers by winning in the BigEq is HORRIBLE. OF COURSE it is. But look at the retired Grand Prix horse in those divisions today. It's not like all of those kids actually have to ride anyway. It's a frustrating time for the h/j world. However, I don't think for a minute that it's because there's too much control in the hands of the trainer.

Khobstetter and findeight, I completely agree.

When customers think they have "educated" themselves -- is when they make the BIGGEST AND WORST mistakes. Yeah, go ahead and talk to a vet or two on your coffee break, chat with your blacksmith while he's out for spring shots. Oh, yeah, instantly you'll know more than a trainer who's been riding for 40 years, competing on the "A" circuit, managing 100 horses and continuing to learn.

If you don't have an honest trainer who you feel comfortable with , GET A NEW TRAINER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But don't fool yourself into thinking that you should be the one calling the shots!!! THAT is what is wrong with this industry. Too many people who think they know everything, but really know nothing!!!

That is why they don't really understand the cause and effect of anything. They don't understand that working for 2 years towards that blue ribbon will be much more rewarding than giving the horse a big shot of whatever is needed to make him comatosed enough for the kid who can't ride to get a ribbon.

I know I sound like a broken record...FIND A TRAINER who you can trust, who is looking out for your best interest, who can really teach you something and then-- listen to what they have to say and follow the program they have set. IF you don't want to do this, rent some video tapes, build your own barn and have fun.

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 12:06 PM
TQ, based on your post, it would appear that you are smarter than the average bear.

pwynnnorman
Apr. 4, 2004, 01:16 PM
(sigh)

I give up. Peeeeople!!!! I was BY NO MEANS WHATSOEVER talking in the least about INDIVIDUALs and their trainers! What the heck does your individual relationship with your trainer have to do with whether pony jumpers fill or the rules involving holding up the rings are enforced? Or even whether there should be a prestigious division for the 14.3-15.2 hander (another major issue that is dead in the water due to trainers influence on rule-making)?

Geez!

I count three people out there willing to see the forest as well as the trees here--which is EXACTLY why trainers have so much influence over the SYSTEM.

(WOW, I suppose I could open up a whole new can of worms by trying to get you people to see the issue by comparing the relationship between rules, policies and philosophies in h/j to eventing and dressage--to see how there are fewer developed based on trainers' needs and more based on exhibitors' and owners' and breeders' needs...but after the way this crazy thread has evolved, all I want to do is see it end. It's so utterly hopeless here, it's positively hillarious.)

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

amrose3
Apr. 4, 2004, 01:27 PM
I see both sides of the coin but...how do you find a trainer you can trust if you have no knowledge of this sport and never question or educate yourself about it.
A long time ago I purchased a horse in Canada with a "reputable" trainer (guiding me) who had been around a long, long time. About one week after the horse arrived it came up lame. The vet my reputable and knowledgeable trainer prefered to use was in Florida and wouldn't be back for a week or so. I went along with the trainer who wanted to wait til the prefered vet came back before we made any decisions even tho my gut told me something else. Needless to say the horse which was vetted by the purchasers vet (horse was in Canada) was never going to be totally sound. The barn through which he was purchased through refused to take him back. I now had a $20,000 deduction as I ended up donating him to a college. Yes I could have filed a lawsuit against the seller but since it was in Canada I had to retain an international lawyer and it would have ended up costing me more than the horse. I decided then and there that I was going to know something about what I was spending sooo much money on.
Yes, I want to know what shots my horse is given and also if he is lame, why is he and what steps should be taken to get him sound. Yes...I want to know what the blacksmith is doing as some think they know more than the vet or trainer. If I am buying a horse I want to know what the future holds as far as the horse holding up...or is the horse physically capable of doing what I may want to do in a couple of years as I will be paying for the care of this horse for many years.
I am very, very lucky to have found a great, supportive, honest trainer who encourages me and never, ever discourages me from taking an active role in the care of my horse. I will say that there are many who don't want to be that involved and that is their perogative. I have been involved with my trainer for about 10 years and I would hope that I have learned something in that time.
I have also noticed over the years that the people who want to win immediatley after becoming involved with horses or don't do the necessary training that it takes to be competative...they never last long.

Member/Founder of the "Well Endowed Craniums Clique"

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 01:30 PM
pwynn, your thread was dumbed down, which is too bad because you asked a great question.

khobstetter
Apr. 4, 2004, 02:10 PM
pwynn and xegeba...

My opinion is still the exact same...it is in the hands of the owners NOW!!!!

I must have not been clear, and after going back and reading my ONE post here I can see why you are frustrated.

The industry is NOW in the hands of the owners...THEY are the ones in entire control..the problem is that they do not unite and try to make differences as a group.

I for one would LOVE it if you guys would all get together and form a SUPER "owners" group that YOU would educate owners as they come into this sport... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I absolutely DO NOT agree with this post.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> you know as well as anybody that a horse owner who does anything more than pay the bills is a pain in the butt... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The owner that is a pain in the butt in my barn is the one who does NOT want to take the time to listen and learn..the one who is too busy to do anything but write the check..the one who is too busy for our twice yearly goal meetings..those are for me the "problem" clients.....HOWEVER, they are the ones that want to dictate my barn practices and that is not going to happen!!!

I want the clients educated, I want the clients there when the vet is there, I want the owners to have and EXTREME amount of contact and input, I want them to learn and know our sport so they fall in love with the REAL sport..

BUT the reality is that the largest % of owners do not want to be bothered and cannot take the time...

Then along comes a few of "you" who want to be involved and "most" trainers do not run that type of barn....it's too much work!!

So...I AGREE that it could be different, BUT it is TRULY because of the majority of the owners who want the easy way to the top...pay for it and let the trainer be in charge...

The only real way to make a difference is with your own pocket book...don't train there http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif...BUT THAT IS ANOTHER TOPIC WE HAVE BEAT TO DEATH ON THIS BB. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Midge
Apr. 4, 2004, 02:50 PM
Pwynn, thank you for taking the time to answer my specific questions! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I do have a problem with the fact you think trainers are trying to stymie the developement of new divisions. For the most part, trainers make most of their money buying and selling. A new market for a horse that is hard to sell size wise would I think be welcomed for the most part. However, based on the number of entries in current divisions, you would have to create a size split in the childrens and adult hunters. I am guessing you want a small/medium/large split. Since a more legitimate split is based on age, you would have to have a six section split in those two divisions.

Creating size based open divisions is of course out of the question.

*****
Still trying to find the answers to life's persistent questions.

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 02:59 PM
khobstetter, in your quote you left out a huge part."A circuit clientele". "A" circuit clientele means "A" circuit trainers. "A" circuit trainers do not run (as you stated) those type of barns because it is too much work. I couldn't agree more!! Therein lies the answer to some of Pwynn questions. Pony Jumpers a bona fide division? Probably not... too much work, easier to buy those overpriced pony hunters (whose price tag by the way is not being driven by the client). A new division for that tweener sized group of horses? Probably not... too many horses ... the price of all go down. There will never be an organized group of owners because it is a hobby. Pywnn is a breeder(hobby or not) , her frustration is understandable and valid.

upperco
Apr. 4, 2004, 03:15 PM
Pony jumpers? The reason that the division probably doesn't fill is because it is too often dangerous.

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 03:17 PM
upperco, the kids in Europe don't seem to have a problem with it. Our biggest divsion here is pobably like crossrails to the little tykes that live across the pond...

khobstetter
Apr. 4, 2004, 03:27 PM
Pony Jumpers...I'll "go there"

We had a pony 2 years ago and toted it all over this state...Indio 1/2 Circuit Cha,mpion, Del Mar, Show Park, LA and so on to find pony classes....we won soooo much she qualified to take it back east at the end of the year...she didn't have the money,...

Why don't you guys chime in here about why you don't buy Pony Jumpers??? pwynn and xegeba are tyrying hArd to make a difference and want input...

HERE'S THE QUESTION...

Parents/Adults...why not buy a pony jumper for your child?

Children...do you want one??

As far as the Pony Jumpers being dangerous...have you ever seen a class in Europe..?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Scary and FUN FUN FUN for the kids to learn..but they learn!!!!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 03:31 PM
hobby... I know and like you... You are one of the few that really does care aqbout the sport beyond what it brings to your bank acct. Thanks for engendering a healthy debate on a subject that really does matter.

Snowbird
Apr. 4, 2004, 03:38 PM
Ther real problem is a the lack of communication between the segments of the industry. This is why I have worked so willingly to try and correct the misinformation.

The fact is that Show Management has been condemned as thieves and pick pockets, and Stewards as gullible idiots bought by management, then we have the crooked political jusdges buying and selling horses and themselves to the highest bidder. So why should not anyone wonder if it's the trainers, the owners, the amateurs, the Federation or anyone else? Hey! maybe it's farriers and the vets they seem to make all the money.

The fact is that the basic structure of our associations is flawed. There is no communication between all these factions and the only logical reasult in the recrimination that we see.

I can tell you that the NHJA will shortly offer you a pure democracy that will change that situation.
motto:
To Empower the Members

If the amateurs, owners and trainers sat down together and had a shopping list of issues that need to be addressed it can be done. We could clear the air with honest and open interaction. Whast makes the trainers look bad is the back room secrecy of hidden deals and that can easily be fixed.

We simply need to properly design a paper trail that tells who, where, when, how and how much.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Lord Helpus
Apr. 4, 2004, 03:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
Pwynn, ... What part of the industry (and I am assuming you are talking H/J here) is trainer driven and if so who should be driving? What BAD developements exist as a result and do you have any ideas how to change them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Midge, I am no way picking on you. You just happened to ask a question that I want to answer.

As many people on the BB know, I am a VERY independent ammie. I have my own farm, I find my own horses. I start them entirely by myself and go to a trainer when we are getting ready to show. I start showing all my horses myself, only having a trainer show them when they go PreGreen, since that division is the province of professionals.

I pay for every lesson and every ride. I do not expect them to give anything away. Every thing I get froma trainer, I pay for.

Now we come to the part of the question I want to answer: What part of the industry is trainer driven? Sales of expensive horses.

An ammie like me cannot sell an expensive horse. Flat can't. Trainers will not have a client buy a horse directly from an ammie -- It is a closed circle. "I'll buy your horse if you buy mine. We all have to stick together to survive" they reason.

I know of no exceptions to this statement. -- Once a horse gets over the $75,000 range, even if that horse is the absolute BEST horse for their client, no trainer will approve of the client buying it unless another trainer is involved.

Why do I wish I could leave trainers out of a sale? Because of the rampant fraud that exists in this part of the horse world. A trainer is an agent. An agent owes a fiduciary duty to his client to get the most advantageous deal he can for that person. Self dealing is FRAUD. It is illegal and unethical. Pure and simple.

Yes, there are some trainers out there who will sell or buy a horse on a straight commission. everyone knows where every penny goes, and the entire dealing is open to scrutiny by any of the parties involved.

But the percentage of such ethical, honest trainers is small. Pathetically small.

People may say that they have never had this problem. I bet they have and not have even known it. Because if a trainer of a buyer is limited to X% on a sale, he will recommend another horse to his client. One from which he can skim money off the top.

I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Yet it is a closed society. I don't know how to break into it, as an amateur trying to get nice horses sold.

I know a solution -- To have sellers and buyers talk to each other, deal directly with each other and each pay their agent the commission agreed to.

I know that happens on the lower price levels, so I don't need to hear a chorus of trainers chime in that they are honest. I know there are honest trainers out there. I am talking about the majority of BNT's who regularly deal in six figure horses.

Last winter, my trainer/agent for George was 100% honest. We discussed this entire issue before going to Florida. When George started winning, we discussed an asking price. I feel comfortable that my agent was representing me honestly. To give him credit, his name is Don Sheehan from Southern Pines.

But, then I hear (by accident) that a potential buyer has had George priced to her at 150% of what I am asking. And he was not worth that. So he did not sell.

If you see a trainer acting as my agent, you can be assured that he is honest and is pricing the horse at the price we have agreed to. Because if he isn't, he will not be my agent for long. It is the buyer's trainer who I cannot control. That is where the fraud is committed.

Could I advertise George with a price attached so that the potential buyer knows what the real price is? Yes. Would he sell? No. Because most BNT's will not have their clients even try a horse whose price is out there in public. Not enough room to double dip and commit fraud.

This has become an accepted practice in this industry. When was the last time you saw a six figure hunter advertised with the price attached. I bet it is a long time ago. "Serious Inquiries Only" has become the mantra.

It is wrong, it is corrupt and it is entirely in the hands of the trainers. Because client's rely on their trainer's opinion of horses to buy. And trainer will not give a positive opinion on a horse on which he cannot make a secret profit from his own client.

If there are BNT trainers out there who might read this and who are honest, please feel free to make yourselves known, so that as sellers we know who to talk to about selling nice horses for realistic prices.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Weatherford
Apr. 4, 2004, 03:50 PM
Agree, LordHelpus!

A friend of mine sold her horse through a BNT (an honest one)... Had a price tag of $15-18K (trainer getting 10%)... Horse was sold for $30K - trainer still took only 10%, and kid got her college tuition and more! Trainer was dumbfounded that the horse sold for that kind of money - especially since it went to be a trail horse... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

There ARE good honest trainers out there...

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 03:53 PM
Lord Helpus, your post on this thread along with some other threads from the not so distant past are making the BNt's more than a little anxious and irritated...

Lord Helpus
Apr. 4, 2004, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Lord Helpus, your post on this thread along with some other threads from the not so distant past are making the BNt's more than a little anxious and irritated...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that a bad thing? Any trainer who believes that their [selling] clients should get 85 - 90 % of the agreed upon sales price, and that their [buying] clients should pay 10 - 15% commission on the asking price are encouraged to speak up in any forum they feel comfortable. I encourge them to make their practices made known.

I would be happy, nay, excited, to deal with them, as I bet a lot of other people would.

If you are implying that I should not say what I think because I might offend some people who do not put their client's interests before their own, please feel free to PT me so that I can understand your position.

I certainly do not mean to defame the reputation of any honest trainer. I am happy to correct my statement with respect to them.

Toward that end. I would also like to mention another trainer I have had the pleasure of working with: Jim Dahlquist from Portland, Oregon. I had a young horse who he loved, so he suggested that another client buy the horse so that he would stay in his barn. He absolutely refused to take more than 10% on the deal (5% from me and 5% from the buyer), since 10% was his standard comission.

Had he taken a flat 10% from both of us (20% total), I still would have had no problem with the deal or his ethics since he was acting as agent for both buyer and seller. I certainly do not begrudge trainers from making money off buying and selling. They deserve to. But they do not deserve to make hidden profits which result in their client paying more or receiving less than is appropriate.

If people refuse to buy my horses because of my opinions, then that really says something very sad about the state of this business.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 04:39 PM
Lord Helpus, I was afraid you were going to take it that way! Let me assure you(coming from one who was educated the hard way,but EDUCATED nonetheless) I think you and people like you are a good thing for the consumer involved with this sport. If I had a friend like you years ago, i would have spent less money, had less arguments with my husband etc, etc. It is a good thing that the BNT's are anxious and irritated...

Hidden Hill Farm
Apr. 4, 2004, 04:44 PM
Once again, I'm in complete agreement with khobstetter.

As for new divisions....I actually support the idea of a division for smaller horses. I'd love to see people on horses that were suited to them instead of tiny kids on huge horses because that was the trend. Put a small kid on a small horse in a division where the horse has a chance? That's one hell of an idea!!!!!!!! It's too bad that so many nice "honies" end up with pony club lives because there's just nowhere for them to compete.

As for pony jumpers. It still terrifies me. It's like the Child/Adult jumpers. It's a wasteland for weekend warriors and horses that just couldn't compete anywhere else. There needs to be a way to change this!!!

If pony jumpers could be changed into a division that had to be "graduated to" instead of a place to put the kids who are "rough and ready" riders and poorly turned out ponies racing around hell bent for leather, yeah, I'd support it IN A MINUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just hate the fact that many of those kids just never learn to ride and like GM says, they don't belong at a horse show until they figure it out. It's not safe, it's downright scary and it is really too bad, because I think a division like that is great -- in theory.

Perhaps if you had to win a rated pony medal class to be eligible to compete...or something like that, it would be an option. It completely crazy that all you have to do to enter is pay the fees!! It's like a parent walking into a principal's office and saying here $$$$$, I don't want Suzie to attend 2nd or 3rd grade, can't you just put her in fourth!!!????

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 04:48 PM
Hidden Hill, Seems to me that if a kid goes to Indio and shows in the Pony Jumpers and is ill-prepared that would be the trainers fault,if the kid has a trainer, which all of those kids do!

Lord Helpus
Apr. 4, 2004, 04:48 PM
Thank you for clarifying your meaning, Xegeba (interesting name, BTW. Where does it coem from?). I was unsure what you were implying from your first post. I am glad you agree with me. Isn't it sad how many of us there are out there who feel the way we do...

Perhaps, instead of licensing trainers according to their knowledge and ability to teach riders and/or train horses, what is needed is an association of trainers who want to make their integrity known to others, and so are willing to take a public stance that they will deal fairly and honestly in all horse related transactions. (Now that is a true attorney sentence -- one that comprises an entire paragraph! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

I bet they would have a waiting list of people who wanted to associate with them.

Someone needs to say that the emperor has no clothes. Perhaps that is my role in this industry.

What is the worst that can happen to me? I end up owning some lovely horses -- which I can enjoy showing and (hopefully) winning on. Life could be worse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

silver
Apr. 4, 2004, 04:51 PM
Hidden Hill Farm:

in Europe the pony jumpers do just fine over bigger fences and all they require for entry is that you pay the fees. I doubt many of them would win a US pony medal class but they ride better than most people on this board.

I think it's ludicrous that pony kids are not supposed to jump over 3'. And then everyone wonders why the adult divisions are so heavily weighted towards the lower heights? Style and form, contrary to popular belief are NOT everything. Make the PJs 4' and you'll see you can ride and who can't pretty fast.

There already is a division for smaller horses: the small juniors.

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with a horse leading a "Pony Club life". Last time I went to a show with a bunch of Pony Club graduates they beat the pants off people who'd been on the A circuit for years. In equitation no less. Then they won the jumpers too.

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 05:02 PM
Lord Helpus, I think there are a ton of us out there that feel the same way you and I do... The problem is, and let me clarify that I am speaking about the A circuit end of this business, clients who figure it out, also figure out that they have to play by the rules if they want to play the game. Now that is sad..

PineTreeFarm
Apr. 4, 2004, 05:26 PM
Lord Helpus : Way to Go !!!

Hidden Hill Farm said: "It's like the Child/Adult jumpers. It's a wasteland for weekend warriors and horses that just couldn't compete anywhere else. There needs to be a way to change this!!!"

I think you are making very general statements. Perhaps it is that bad in your area. It's a nice division here. What's so bad about "weekend warriors". Many adults don't have the time during the week and aren't comfortable doing higher divisions. You could also look at the Childrens Hunter division and say that division is for horses that just couldn't compete anywhere else but I'll bet you don't feel that way!!
These divisions offer people a way to compete at larger shows on a less expensive horse or pony. Nothing wrong with that. Oh wait, maybe that is a problem, less $ for commissions.

Blue Devil
Apr. 4, 2004, 05:28 PM
Whomever suggested that riders/owners all need education--to meet the farrier, figure out supplements, etc--you're forgetting about one crucial detail: TIME. If my parents had to do any of that back when I was a junior (in the not-so-distant two years ago http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) I wouldn't have been riding, much less they wouldn't have been paying the bills for three horses at the time.

I think a lot of people, particularly on this board by its nature, forget that for some people, horse back riding is a recreational activity. Like tennis. Or golf. Or hiking in the mountains. It doesn't mean people aren't committed to buying the best tennis racket or paying for the best golfing lessons or a vacation to the nicest mountains, it just means that this one activity does not control their life. And it shouldn't. Once that happens, IMHO, this industry will lose a lot of its supporters (financially, politically, and otherwise).

khobstetter
Apr. 4, 2004, 05:59 PM
Blue Devil...I didn't read where anyone said that to be educated meant for your parents to "meet the farrier, figure out feed supplements"...

To me it means taking the time to EXTENSIVELY AND THOROUGHLY talk and converse and do twice yearly goal meetings with us, the training staff. I have over 75 clients and only about 1/3 respond to my newsletters asking for each client to set up their spring and/or fall goal meeting with us...the others are "interested but too busy, can we do it later"..

As far as other comments here about clients buying horses from clients...YIKE!!!!! No Way!!!! Why...because that in itself is a nightmare (get the pun) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif.

I am the agent, I do all the calls, show the horses, the negoiating, the bills of sales and sometimes the money changing hands also. My sale horse owners DO NOT want to talk to everyone about their horse..they hire me to do it.

ONCE A SALE IS NEAR FRUITATION...I will put the clients together if they want to be....not before...there is FAR too much emotion and personal feelings that get in the way when YOU own the horse. To us it's "just business" and no hurt feelings or arguments or??????????

I know at some point each sale I make, the people on both sides will meet and greet each other and that is FINE with me I have nothing to hide.....I just want to get the deal done and "closing" a sale is just way too personal for alot of people.

YOU may be one of the few that can do it...BUT there are not too many who can do it effectively ...IF THERE WERE I WOULDN'T HAVE SUCH AN ACTIVE SALES BUSINESS... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

EqTrainer
Apr. 4, 2004, 06:17 PM
khobstetter, I 100% agree with you.

Most of my clients send us their horses to sell because they DO NOT want to deal with it. As someone else pointed out, it is their hobby, not their business. We also get many nice horses in that sell very quickly when their owners had been marketing them FOREVER. The fact is, ads don't sell horses. People do. Why is there a network of trainers that buy and sell amongst each other? Well, one reason is that we know who we can trust and who we can't. I only want to deal with trainers that do business the same way I do. Let's face it, you can research every possible issue about a horse and still miss something.. better to buy from who you know will tell you the truth. Maybe that helps explain the apparent trainer cliques?

I am glad to see someone outline even PART of what goes on during the selling of a horse. It is often long and complicated, and every penny of that commission is earned. Also, a lot of times we have people send us horses on straight consignment, which means we absorb ALL THE BILLS until that horse sells, and train it in the meantime. 10%? I don't think so. I think I should get the difference between whatever the horse was worth when I got it and whatever I made it worth. Often that number is significant. I think it's sour grapes on the part of owners who couldn't do the work, couldn't do the marketing, didn't have the connections, but still think they should get part of that earned money. I took all the risk by putting my time and money into the horse.. I should reap the benefits.

That particular scenario is one I have not heard anyone else here talk about, but it is common, and I think sometimes when someone says they sent their horse off, it was being marketed for $$$, blah blah blah, they are NOT telling the whole story. The question to be asked before assuming they were being ripped off is.. were you paying for the horse to be trained and shown while it was there to be sold? Hmmmmm.

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 06:24 PM
Sorry EQTrainer... a horse that goes to a consignment barn is far different than what Lord Helpus was talking about...

Hidden Hill Farm
Apr. 4, 2004, 06:35 PM
Amen EqTrainer!

We also do sales and have taken enough risks. I've put my money where my mouth is time and time again that I think I've earned the right to my opinion.

Khob. Yes, GOALS are SO important. Having a client on the same page with you is everything and how frustrating when they can't even take the time to define those goals with you!!!

Recreational riding and pony club-- it's all fine. Please re-read my post and you'll see I'm not slamming them. I'm just stating that I think there a lot of nice horses that would be worth more $$$ and could provide a more suitable mount if there was a division for them to show in.

Yes, ponies jump much higher in Europe and plenty of kids ride them. That doesn't make our pony jumper divisions any less scary and any more safe.
If those kids were being taught technique and accuracy, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The kids that ride well and do pony jumpers, KUDOS TO THEM AND THEIR TRAINERS. ....AND no, it's not the trainer's fault if the kid is racing around in the pony jumpers. Many times, the parents and the kid decide that's what they want to do and they're just not ready, but because they haven't been hurt yet, and are having fun, they continue.
I'm not slamming the division in the least, just stating a truth, it's very scary to watch and many of those kids have no business being in there!!
I wouldn't buy my 7 year old an ATV and hand him the keys either, but that's just me!

BlueDevil, you restated the point I was trying to get across. Thank you. If parents and amateurs had all the time in the world to learn, no, they probably wouldn't need horse professionals, they would just become horse professionals. Otherwise, for the most part,they don't have the years it takes to get to the point where they don't need guidance and are able to make the best decisions.

khobstetter
Apr. 4, 2004, 06:54 PM
If anyone thinks the Pony Jumpers in Europe are all polished and refined...better go watch a class or two..it will change your opinion of how scary ours are and theirs ARN'T!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 07:07 PM
The question is...WHY is the Pony Jumper Division in the U.S. a total failure??? It's too scary? Why is it too scary? Scary for whom? What if there were no pony hunter divisions in the U.S. just like Europe? Then all the pro's would be teaching Pony Jumpers!!!! This does not require a degree in anything to figure out...

Lord Helpus
Apr. 4, 2004, 07:12 PM
Eqtrainer,

I am not talking about professionals who take horses in on consignment and pay ALL THE BILLS (training/ board/ shoeing/ showing, etc.) That is a different kettle of fish. I trust that you have a contract (hopefully written) that lays out all of the responsibilites of and benefits to you and your principal when you take a horse on consignment. That is a legal document and I have no trouble with any legal agreement.

Also legal (although I personally would never do business this way) is a client who knowingly agrees to accept X amount for the horse, with full understanding that any amount over that goes to the agent. The pitfall of this type of arrangement is that it is the trainer's legal obligation to advise the client (to the best of her knowledge /ability) what she believes is the fair market value of the horse. With a little honesty in their relationship, the amount agreed to by the seller and the amount received for the horse should bear some relationship to each other.

Another problem I have with this kind of agreement is that it could potentially result in a financial bonanza if the trainer finds a buyer with a lot of money. But there is never a commensurate downside risk to that trainer if the horse sells for the amount discussed or less. In such an event, the trainer still seems to expect a commission. Trainers can't have it both ways.

I have learned (the hard way) that, when I am asked how much I want for my horse, my answer is always "90% of the sales price". I want there to be no misunderstanding so that my agent could say after the fact, "Well, you said you wanted $75,000. So you should be happy with that, even though the horse sold for $125,000".

By not putting a price on the horse, if I later find out that I got $75,000, but the horse really sold for $125,000 (or any amount greated than $85,000), it is clear that my agent defrauded me.

I do not believe that many people send six figure horses on consignment, though. So that is why I did not specifically mention consignment agreements.

ANY agreement knowlingly entered into between two consenting adults is a legal and binding contract. And the terms of that contract are between the parties and no one else.

My only objection to the financial side of a horse transaction is the HIDDEN money that is not accounted for to each agent's respective principal.

Will there be agents who will not want to sell a horse for me? Sure -- lots of them. Because they are not content with a fair return for their efforts. Instead of getting a fair $7,500 - $10,000 for selling a $75,000 horse, they get nothing because they will not represent a horse unless they can make a killing.

I say to those people, "Your loss, toots".

As to the issue of only dealing with trainers who do business the same way as you do -- I'm not touching that one with a 10' pole.

A real estate agent also has to spend a lot of time and do a lot of work to sell a house (or find one for a buyer). The commission for their labor is set forth in black and white and is known by all concerned parties. Most realtors who represent a buyer or a seller get 1.5% of the selling price (each side gets 3% of the 6% standard comission. Half of the 3% goes to the agent and the other half goes to the broker under whose license that agent is operating.) Of course, different agreements can occur. I am only bringing up the standard agreement which I was familiar with when I practiced real estate law.

That means that a real estate agent makes the same amount of money selling a $1,000,000 house as a trainer makes selling a $100,000 horse (at a 15% comission rate). Why do trainers think that their work is so much harder than a real estate agents that they deserve more?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

upperco
Apr. 4, 2004, 07:30 PM
I"m really confused.Lord Helpus, I don't now about the dealings you are talking about,but how can an ammie buy,train and sell horses? It sounds like you are doing the same things that a professional does.

Albion
Apr. 4, 2004, 07:38 PM
The PJ division in Europe isn't all polished and refined - but by god, those kids can RIDE. What good is looking pretty if you can't really ride worth ****. Sure, there are LOTS of kids out in the US that look great & are super-effective as well. But there are also a fair amount of kids who are merely perching their way around a course (hunters), or riding with no finesse (lower jumper courses) - something that can't be done at bigger fence heights, like the heights the PJs in Europe are jumping! Just like the A/O/Jr. Jumpers in the US - you have to RIDE to get around safely. Some of my best riding was done cross country, riding by the seat of my pants. I learned a lot about balance, riding over rough terrain, jumping funky jumps going up hill, down hill, and in between. Did I always have pretty eq? Of course not. Can I sit a snarky baby? Yup. Pretty is as pretty does. I wish I had better eq, but such is life.

It always depresses me to see posts moaning about kids 'staying' in the ponies. On the one hand, it's true - you pretty much max out at 3'. On the other hand, why in the world should a kid who fits well on ponies & is dwarfed by the 17 hand behemoths HAVE to stop riding ponies because the only way to move up in height & technicality in this country is by moving up to horses? I have met plenty of brave, scopey ponies that could do fantastically over bigger fences - but would have a tough time making those horse strides. Definitely a bigger safety issue in the higher jumpers than in the hunters.

I don't like seeing really tall kids riding ponies - the ones that have their sturrips jacked up & look like bug boys - but there are plenty of kids out there that are going to 'max' out at 5'2" or shorter, and look BETTER on ponies than on gimongous horses. Why won't people support a bigger pony division? Ponies are JUST as capable as horses. There are breeders - like PWynn - who are breeding fantastic, really athletic ponies who could go & do the bigger, more technical stuff - the sorts of classes where you can't just ride like a bat out of hell & win - but there's no market for them. Why not? Why do short kids HAVE to move to horses to continue progressing over bigger, more technical courses? In the dressage world, shorter adults are starting to realize that they don't HAVE to ride huge horses to be successful as amatuers, and in fact, most amateurs are going to do better on that smaller, more managable, less extravagant horse - and there is a growing market for smaller horses & large ponies. Is that trend ever going to hit the H/J world?

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

xegeba
Apr. 4, 2004, 07:45 PM
Albion... the trend will only hit when the money hits... Let me ask you a really dumb question. What is easier? Teach a kid to ride the Pony Hunters or the Pony Jumpers. If anybody responds Hunters...

Janet
Apr. 4, 2004, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by upperco:
I"m really confused.Lord Helpus, I don't now about the dealings you are talking about,but how can an ammie buy,train and sell horses? It sounds like you are doing the same things that a professional does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Read the amateur rules. It is PERFECTLY legitimate for an amateur to buy, train, and sell HORSES SHE OWNS. She just can't do it for hoses belonging to someone else.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Midge
Apr. 4, 2004, 08:14 PM
LordHelpus, I can in no way disagree with your post. However, it is not limited to the h/j divisions, it is throughout the entire horse business. I understand Pwynn's rant to be directed at the h/j industry alone.

*****
Still trying to find the answers to life's persistent questions.

Lord Helpus
Apr. 4, 2004, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by upperco:
I"m really confused.Lord Helpus, I don't now about the dealings you are talking about,but how can an ammie buy,train and sell horses? It sounds like you are doing the same things that a professional does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because I buy a horse and only ride/train my own horse. Many people buy OTTB's and teach them their new job as a riding horse. That is what I do, too.

I do not/can not act as an agent, receive money for riding or training other people's horses or teach lessons. I just play with my own horses.

I am only doing what many, many other ammies do. Have you bought a horse? Showed that horse? Sold a horse? Does that make you a professional? Nope. Well, me either.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tardy
Apr. 5, 2004, 05:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by silver:
in Europe the pony jumpers do just fine over bigger fences and all they require for entry is that you pay the fees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not entirely accurate, I am afraid. Quite a few countries in Europe have licensing systems for riders, run by their national federations. Every rider has to have a license to compete at shows.

[This message was edited by tardy on Apr. 05, 2004 at 08:25 AM.]

cherham
Apr. 5, 2004, 05:21 AM
Great topic guys!

Just to add my thanks to whomever here said "90% of the selling price" when asked by their trainer what they wanted for their horse. That could not be simpler..up front and honest. No hidden costs...no hidden commissions...perfect.

One other thing though...the purchaser pays me (the owner directly) and then I write the cheque to the trainer. Not the other way around...that would just be an invitation to those out there that perhaps are not as honest as others. If a trainer has a problem with that concept than I would be looking for someone else to handle my horse sales really quickly.

khobstetter
Apr. 5, 2004, 11:14 AM
Well MissDog...that is a turly SIMPLE one!!! YOU chose the trainer!!!

Say NO thank you, put the halter on your horse and walk over to another trainer....somewhere on those show grounds is an HONEST one who will do right by you.

But don't bad mouth all of us...it is YOUR choice to do the deal or not...

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

RugBug
Apr. 5, 2004, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:
There is probably no other profession where amateurs expect to be taken seriously over the professionals they are paying to do the job.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really adding to the thread, but you're obviously not a teacher, are you? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:
There is probably no other profession where amateurs expect to be taken seriously over the professionals they are paying to do the job.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really adding to the thread, but you're obviously not a teacher, are you? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I AM... I teach riding. Does that count? &lt;LOL&gt; And as you allude to, I see the same problem on that side of the business, too.

I gave a woman a lesson last year who insisted on riding with these ridiculously long stirrups (it was a dressage lesson). When I asked her to shorten them, she told me NO. Her friend (ammy eventer) told her to do dressage, you need to have a long leg. Voila! Lengthen the stirrups, your leg is longer. No need for lessons at all.

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 12:20 PM
LH.. there is really nothing personal behind what I am going to say, and I hope you can take it that way.

I understand that you are extremely frustrated with a system that is NOT working for you financially. But... you are the one who decided to do this.. what other profession could you join where you didn't have to do it by the rules that were already put into place before you decided to sign up?

I am not talking about the hidden commissions. That is wrong. It's illegal. What I am talking about is - "90% of whatever a trainer can get for your horse". The fact of the matter is, in your barn, or my barn for that matter, a horse is worth a certain $$$. If a BNT can get more for that horse than I can, but is willing to pay what MY fair market value is, what is wrong with that? The fact of the matter is, you and I do not have the same clients they do, and we most likely never will. I am not sure I see why you are so willing to cut your nose off to spite your face. If you can get the same amount of $$$ by letting a BNT sell the horse for you as you would have doing it yourself... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I would not want to be a Don Stewart for anything. He spends every waking moment of every day dealing with clients that I would rather die than deal with. If a horse that is worth $$ in my barn is worth $$$ in his barn it is because he has worked his whole life to make those connections. The horse business is like every other sales industry - sales people cultivate long term relationships with people who buy their product.

I think in some ways you are saying you want to play with the big boys but you don't want to have to live in their playground http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I would not think that you would be able to command the same prices for your horses being an amateur, that a pro can. It's their *business*. You are saying your an amatuer, and it's not your business. So you don't spend the same amount of time and money that they do cultivating relationships... you don't show every weekend to be around those people.. you don't hold their hand while they get divorced, remarried, divorced, have a bad hair day... do you want to? I sure don't.

You will never pay the same amount of money for anything at a flea market as you will at an antique store.

[This message was edited by EqTrainer on Apr. 05, 2004 at 04:22 PM.]

Midge
Apr. 5, 2004, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:I understand that you are extremely frustrated with a system that is NOT working for you financially. But... you are the one who decided to do this.. what other profession could you join where you didn't have to do it by the rules that were already put into place before you decided to sign up?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think this may be the crux of Pwynn's problem with the sport.

*****
Still trying to find the answers to life's persistent questions.

Hidden Hill Farm
Apr. 5, 2004, 02:06 PM
Thanks for mentioning that Midge. I was wondering when someone would bring that up considering the fact that the thread starter is a sportpony breeder.

EqTrainer. It was so nice to see that you once again already responded with exaclty what I was thinking when I got back to the computer...
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

california rider
Apr. 5, 2004, 02:24 PM
Ever see a poster of the fish eating a small fish and behind that fish is another and another.

welcome to the horse biz

I am a small trainer in California and a couple years ago a huge named trainer turned down a horse who was in training with me for sale. This big name person turned it down because his student had found the horse through another agent. Owner of the horse became upset and I bought the horse cheap as in owners opinion that everyone had seen him with the big name and would now think something was wrong with him as they did not buy him. My purchase was 10K which was a very good deal. I went to Indio and sold him to a world cup caliber trainer for under 20K and 3 weeks later the horse sold for 85K and I was SICK over it. BUT could little old me have ever commanded that price... NEVER Do I have sour grapes? NO I try to find myself contacts now that I can work with who are big names so I can get a little of that PIE. I do find it disturbing and against the law for trainers or agents who take comm. from both sides unless both buyer and seller know the score.

silver
Apr. 5, 2004, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
The question is...WHY is the Pony Jumper Division in the U.S. a total failure??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not a total failure yet.. The main reason that the standard remains low is that the riders cannot cross enter into the Juniors. As soon as they can do that the standard will go WAY up.

In Europe there are 17 year olds who also have horses riding larges. There is an age division assocaited, I think it's under 12 for smalls, under 16 for mediums etc. so ther eis a progression there.

becca's boys
Apr. 5, 2004, 03:43 PM
Very well put EqTrainer!

I am not a trainer (and I wouldn't want their job in a million years) but I certainly respect the good ones! I am horrified to see Lord Helpus and Pwynn group ALL trainers into one hideous category of lying, cheating crooks. They clearly have little respect for the profession and for the many honest trainers out there that are trying hard to provide quality service. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Tory Relic
Apr. 5, 2004, 04:01 PM
You know -- I've been lurking on this thread from the start. I don't understand why those of you whom are trainers are insisting that LHU and others are lumping all trainers in the same category. Some of these folks have given examples of honest trainers and have said they have had problems with others. You surely wouldn't want me to believe you all think that ALL trainers are ALWAYS honest? I certainly wouldn't ask you to believe that all people in my profession are efficient ethical honest, anything at all. It's not a horse profession but come on, folks. Your defensiveness has the effect of making me think -- okay, if they are all so wonderfully honest, why are they so awfully defensive about some trainers who may not be so honest? I'm looking at this debate with the idea of learning what it's like out there and you trainers aren't convincing me with your defensiveness and yeah, it's okay to gouge the breeders and folks who rehab racers because you have connections. All it does is make me feel very discouraged about the marketability of a good horse I might breed or rehabilitate with the idea of getting some renumeration for the effort.

Linny
Apr. 5, 2004, 05:38 PM
I really don't see LHU lumping all trainers into the "bad" column. In fact, she goes out of her way to give kudos to (at least) two trainers. She has been bringing along young horses for years and I think she knows whereof she speaks.
If a horse is worth $50k (in a given market) then why should be be worth twice that (with the same training etc) because a BNT is representing him? Also, if that BNT can get $100k then the owner is still due the full amount, less the commission as agreed upon.
I do agree that at a certain level, trainers control the entire "sales game." Sellers and buyers need professional to advise them and search for them but they do need to get all the ifo thay can, before the deal is signed.

To go back to the real estate analogy, the beauty of the system is it's openness. The commissions are public knowledge and the sales price is bid through the agent TO the SELLER. The agaent doesn't have the right to agree to a price and the price is a matter of public record. I realize that the price of a horse shouldn't neccessarily be published. However unless a seller grants an agent "power of attorney" for equine transactions the agent should deliver any bids to the seller. Obviously, if the seller says, "I want $70k" and an offer of that amount comes in the agent should be able to accept.

New participants need to do their homework. Many riders start at "Barn A" and take lessons, buy a horse, trade up, begin showing etc without ever considering other barns. If you never hear anything questionable I can understand this. If the barn is Hunterdon, ok. Some are lucky and start at a great barn but many don't and never learn the difference between good and bad trainers.
BB's like this one are a great place to find out about barns. Sure there will be hearsay and not EVERYONE who has dealt with a given pro will be happy with them. It is however a good place to start. Riders who are showing would be well served to get to know some people from other barns. You may find that different trainers methods might suit you better, or even that your own trainer's answers to your questions are shady.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 05:41 PM
Oh No http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I certainly don't think (or even think I said!) that anyone is saying ALL trainers are dishonest.

I just don't understand the purpose behind the "raging against the system" instead of understanding where you fit into it and making that work for you. I simply cannot understand why if you want, for example, $50k for your horse and a BNT can get $100k and give you the $50 you wanted, you should have a problem with that. YOU'VE GOTTEN WHAT YOU ASKED FOR. Yes, I do think you should be told what is happening. I agree that it is dishonest and deceitful to not tell a seller what is on the table. But in my wildest dreams (errr.. nightmare) I cannot imagine telling a BNT "No thank you, I'll PASS on that $50k because even though *I* didn't think my horse was worth $100k, I want all the money anyway - minus 10% for you".

As Khobstetter keeps pointing out, the answer is to take your horse and money elsewhere if you are not satisfied. The system is obviously not broken *for everyone* as it continues to thrive. And the people who are actually feeding it are not here complaining.. it seems to be only those who are NOT benefiting that are upset.

Tory Relic.. I don't think I am defensive.. I think I am realistic. My advice to you about the marketability of a good horse - don't worry about it. A good horse is easy to sell if you price it at what it is worth *in your market*, whatever that may be. Just be sure you know what your market is, and don't confuse it with that of a BNT http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by EqTrainer on Apr. 05, 2004 at 08:51 PM.]

Linny
Apr. 5, 2004, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:

I just don't understand the purpose behind the "raging against the system" instead of understanding where you fit into it and making that work for you. I simply cannot understand why if you want, for example, $50k for your horse and a BNT can get $100k and give you the $50 you wanted, you should have a problem with that. YOU'VE GOTTEN WHAT YOU ASKED FOR. Yes, I do think you should be told what is happening. I agree that it is dishonest and deceitful to not tell a seller what is on the table. But in my wildest dreams (errr.. nightmare) I cannot imagine telling a BNT "No thank you, I'll PASS on that $50k because even though *I* didn't think my horse was worth $100k, I want all the money anyway - minus 10% for you".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't imagine a trainer who is about to take a 100% commission asking a client if it's ok. Are you saying that as an agent, if YOU get an offer double what I have stated that I want you are going to presnt the FULL offer to me? If you are, then you are an honest trainer/agent. If my agent has a $100k offer on a horse I'm selling for $50k, as the owner/seller am entitled to that money, less agreed commissions. Look, if you are my agent you have a responsibility to act in MY best interest, not yours. If the agreed commission is 10%, you will double your commission by getting $100k. Instead, you give me $45k, and keep $55k!!!????
EqTrainer, I have no beef with you in particular, I have NO IDEA who you are. I don't for a minute think that asking for 90% (or 85%) of the selling price is out of line. I'm currently horseless but if I decide to buy, I will use my current trainer. I have seen some of the horses she has found and trust her. I am also counting on her connections being as straight-up as she is.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

xegeba
Apr. 5, 2004, 06:18 PM
well the problem Linny is simple... If they act with your best interests in mind, then they are going to have sell a lot more horses to make the same amount of money by just doubling or what the heck, tripling the price of one. If you want to go with EQ Trainers logic, the BNT's deserve to do this because their clients are all so needy and time consuming...

findeight
Apr. 5, 2004, 06:21 PM
But, alot of times, those who say this or that horse was represented at such and such a price but sold at x amount....were not owner, trainer or buyer, didn't sit in when the check was signed and really have no idea what was involved, because it was none of their business.

Lots of barn gossip and heresay involved with sales and, unless you were on either end of the transaction, you really don't know what was involved. Lots of others are under age and their parents make and sign the deals and their kids may NOT really know what the financial details were.

I, personally, know of several deals in both H/J and Arabs where the horse was placed with a trainer/agent ON CONSIGNMENT without knowledge of every boarder/client in the barn..as it was NONE of their business.. and the owners worked out with the trainer what they wanted in their pockets...in all three cases barn biddys put out "facts" they had no knowledge of when the horse sold 3 to 6 months later for more then the owner wanted in that pocket..blaming the trainer for pocketing the "excess" when there was none..the old biddys didn't know no board or training was paid nor were any show expenses..because it was none of their business.

I'm not jumping on defending the whole concept of trainer/agents nor the possibility of getting ripped off and I am not saying some agents don't have control of too much of the market.

I am saying I read so much of "I had this friend, what do you think of what happened" or "it's not my horse but what would you think"
or "there is this horse I ride and my trainer says..."

Or, worst of all, "I read here you get get ripped off when buying horses because those who know somebody who had a friend got ripped off because the trainers are all out to get you".

You know, I HAVE been ripped off buying horses, more then once.
But so many on this BB never have and yet pass judgement on so many good pro agent/trainers..many others have had negative experiences with a single so called BNT...like a bnt in that county, not one of the top 10 or 20 in the country.

Not saying there isn't room for more honesty..but, if you have never bought and sold? Don't pass judgement nor draw conclusions based on somebody else who has never bought or sold or on something somebody told you happened to a friend when they had no real knowledge of the agreement between seller and trainer/agent.

And LHU? You are right that there is a stranglehold on an indeprendent ammie getting a price...but I think you CAN do it with your quality animals. Don't think my trainer has had any better luck with the "eternal tryers" who just cannot commit....but pay weekly lease fees to ride and show it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Maybe just in a better position to carry it longer then you can.

Flame suit on...but so many who have neither bought nor sold form opinions on trainers and the industry based on barn gossip or posts on here from those who merely parrot what they read from another gossip.......oh...that sounds like ET, or Martin Gale.

But it's from me and I think it's the truth.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linny:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:

I just don't understand the purpose behind the "raging against the system" instead of understanding where you fit into it and making that work for you. I simply cannot understand why if you want, for example, $50k for your horse and a BNT can get $100k and give you the $50 you wanted, you should have a problem with that. YOU'VE GOTTEN WHAT YOU ASKED FOR. Yes, I do think you should be told what is happening. I agree that it is dishonest and deceitful to not tell a seller what is on the table. But in my wildest dreams (errr.. nightmare) I cannot imagine telling a BNT "No thank you, I'll PASS on that $50k because even though *I* didn't think my horse was worth $100k, I want all the money anyway - minus 10% for you".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't imagine a trainer who is about to take a 100% commission asking a client if it's ok. Are you saying that as an agent, if YOU get an offer double what I have stated that I want you are going to presnt the FULL offer to me? If you are, then you are an honest trainer/agent. If my agent has a $100k offer on a horse I'm selling for $50k, as the owner/seller am entitled to that money, less agreed commissions. Look, if you are my agent you have a responsibility to act in MY best interest, not yours. If the agreed commission is 10%, you will double your commission by getting $100k. Instead, you give me $45k, and keep $55k!!!????
EqTrainer, I have no beef with you in particular, I have NO IDEA who you are. I don't for a minute think that asking for 90% (or 85%) of the selling price is out of line. I'm currently horseless but if I decide to buy, I will use my current trainer. I have seen some of the horses she has found and trust her. I am also counting on her connections being as straight-up as she is.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh... but you are assuming the agreed upon arrangement was a 10% commission.

Yes, I would tell you that I had an offer on your horse of $100k. But I would have not arranged with you to take a 10% commission in the first place.. I would have told you YES, I think I can get you what you want for your horse - I actually think I can get more - and to sell him for you, I want what comes off the top.

Pure conjecture on those numbers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but that's what I would do if I encountered such a beast. And I have sold a number of them that way, with all parties doing the happy dance. The bill of sale reflects every portion of the transaction. It's not the act of doing it that is deceitful, it's the having gone into it with a different arrangement and not revealing the facts that is.

I think it's great that you trust your trainer and her connections.. that's the way it should be, and less people would be complaining about this subject if they only did business with people they could trust. It really is that simple.

xegeba
Apr. 5, 2004, 06:38 PM
So Eq Trainer, you actually have clients that agree to this deal... I want 50,000.00 for Ranger,but if you sell him for 100,000.00 I want you to keep that extra 50,000.00.

findeight
Apr. 5, 2004, 06:51 PM
Maybe she does..or maybe she doesn't.

But, unless you sit in on the deal...you don't really know.

And that is my point.
So many post all kinds of things without ever sitting in on the deal.

If you are neither buyer nor seller nor agent and did not sit at the table during negotiations? You DON'T KNOW what the deal was..regardless of what the barn biddys, your friend or you trainer told you.

Yeah, people get ripped a new one all the time in the horse business...just be sure you have specific knowledge..as in being involved in negotiations..before spouting off. As opposed to posting based on what a friend of a friend said or what one estranged parent said to tick of another...sorry but it happens.

Base your opinions or posts on personal experience with horses you either bought or sold or lay off slamming agent sellers.

Again, not saying there are not some fraud type cases out there, just asking all to restrict what they post to what personally happened to them, not post based on all kinds of barn biddy gossip and jump to conclusions about buying or selling based on posts of those who have never bought or sold...but have a friend of a friend who knows someone who did http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
So Eq Trainer, you actually have clients that agree to this deal... I want 50,000.00 for Ranger,but if you sell him for 100,000.00 I want you to keep that extra 50,000.00.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly &lt;LOL&gt; that was an example. The day I make $50,000 on one horse you will all know it because you'll be able to hear the party wherever you are http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What I often have are ammy owners who have horses that are not working up to their potential (read: the owner rides 2x week, not very well, and horse looks like crap), or perhaps need 30-90 days worth of training to bump them up to the next level of performance. Those people, rather than putting the horse in training for the time it would take to get the horse up to speed (read: spend more money on the horse), would rather name a price, drop the horse off and walk away.

So yes, in theory I do... although I have never gotten to double anyone's price. But perhaps you are missing the facts that I am taking the risk of putting my time and effort into a horse that 1) may not vet 2) may not be what the market wants right then 3) might die tomorrow 4) might kill me 5) that the seller can ask for back at anytime.

Do you understand the advantage to the seller? It's a game of risk. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. The client never loses.. either they get their horse back with more training if things don't work out, or they get a check.

xegeba
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:05 PM
Findeight, pretend I am a buyer(have been and will continue to be one). I tell my trainer that the max amount of money I can spend is 200,000.00. Trainer shows me 7 horses ranging from 100,000.00 to 250,000.00. I NEVER meet the sellers. Everyone decides that the one for 250,000.00 is the horse for me. I make an offer for 200,000.00 through my trainer. I don't sit down at the dinner table with the owner and her agent and seal the deal... that almost never happens. This is the standard operating procedure where I come from. That is how you play the game.

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:05 PM
Findeight, I think you are so right..

I suspect a lot of the stories we hear are simply that.. stories. And often people only hear what they want to hear, regardless of being told the truth or not.. it's not exciting if there's no scandal.

The only person I know who has ever made any deals that I know firsthand were shady has paid a heavy price for it. His business, that at one time was booming, is now nearly nonexistant. I think he is considering getting into real estate.

Merry
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:05 PM
Wow. This has become a thread that hits close to home for me. My sister and I rode with a BNT off and on for years. We truly thought he was, if not a "friend," someone who looked out for us.

When it came time to market 2 of our nice young hunters, I was trusting enough to let him act as our agent. We were paying FULL BOARD AND TRAINING, by the way. And yet I was doing ALL of the showing of the two horses, not him.

Anyhoo, comes time to sell. Together we came to an agreement on what the horses should be priced at. Both horses sell promptly. However, when I found out what the horses actually sold for, the BNT doubled the price on one horse and took a 50% commission and the other one he took 30%.

His comment when I confronted him? "Well, you got what you wanted for the horses, and if I made a little extra money, then we're all happy."

Uh, what happened to being my adviser? Why didn't he say to me, "Look. I think we can get more for these two babies. Let me price them at X and we'll split the difference over and above your base price," or something like that. But no. He was willing to rip me off based on my trust in him and my ignorance as to how nice my horses really were.

How did I feel? Utterly betrayed. Left his barn. Would never deal with him again, either.

That doesn't mean that all trainers are like that. On the contrary, I can list several that, over the years, are refreshingly upfront about commissions, what they honestly think the horse is worth, how we deal with offers, who gets paid and when, etc.

But does it still leave a bitter taste in my mouth? Yes, and I don't think I'll ever totally trust a professional trainer again, which is sad.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh, how I long to run with a wilder herd. Alas, I cannot. Damn the electric fence! Damn the electric fence!"~From Cow Poetry

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Findeight, pretend I am a buyer(have been and will continue to be one). I tell my trainer that the max amount of money I can spend is 200,000.00. Trainer shows me 7 horses ranging from 100,000.00 to 250,000.00. I NEVER meet the sellers. Everyone decides that the one for 250,000.00 is the horse for me. I make an offer for 200,000.00 through my trainer. I don't sit down at the dinner table with the owner and her agent and seal the deal... that almost never happens. This is the standard operating procedure where I come from. That is how you play the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My clients rarely meet a seller when buying. I think that's normal... sellers don't want to be involved. However - every bill of sale I write has the seller's name on it and I am listed as agent of the seller.

I'm curious. What does your BOS say?

xegeba
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:12 PM
what is a BOS?

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
what is a BOS?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill Of Sale

xegeba
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:21 PM
Oh...Bill of sale. Which one, there are many...

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Oh...Bill of sale. Which one, there are many...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

pick one, any one.

xegeba
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:28 PM
Well, let's see... The first one Merry filled out and I paid her face to face, after she was so kind to bring the boy to my place. The next two,same deal. The 4th, same deal. The 5th, kinda sorta the same deal.I guess by now, you have figured out that I am one of those Educated clients that trainers love to have!

Linny
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:35 PM
EqTrainer, I give you credit, you are honest. As someone who has worked in sales, on full commission I begrudge no-one a living. When I was selling, if I wanted to make a bigger commission, I had to sell more stuff. I understand that many sellers are happy with the way you do business. You wouldn't be my choice, at this point in my life.
I am not accusing you but I feel that there is room for chicanery. If I could be convinced (as the seller) to take $5k less, you (the agent) immediately makes $5k more. It creates the atmposphere in which the agent and the principal have opposing interests.
With regard to "risk" if you feel a horse is vastly underpriced, buy him then resell. When I was a young 'un a trainer of mine found a gem standing in mud to his knees. He bought the horse for $1k. After a bath and a month or two of good food and getting in shape, it turned out that he had a super 3' horse. He sold him for $10k at his first show.
I don't begrudge him the profit, he took a RISK. Had he told the owner, "I can try to sell him for you" and given her $1k of the sales price afer getting $10k, I would have felt the seller was robbed.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

Lord Helpus
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:
I understand that you are extremely frustrated with a system that is NOT working for you financially. But... you are the one who decided to do this.. what other profession could you join where you didn't have to do it by the rules that were already put into place before you decided to sign up?

I am not talking about the hidden commissions. That is wrong. It's illegal. What I am talking about is - "90% of whatever a trainer can get for your horse". The fact of the matter is, in your barn, or my barn for that matter, a horse is worth a certain $$$. If a BNT can get more for that horse than I can, but is willing to pay what MY fair market value is, what is wrong with that? The fact of the matter is, you and I do not have the same clients they do, and we most likely never will. I am not sure I see why you are so willing to cut your nose off to spite your face. If you can get the same amount of $$$ by letting a BNT sell the horse for you as you would have doing it yourself... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I would not want to be a Don Stewart for anything. He spends every waking moment of every day dealing with clients that I would rather die than deal with. If a horse that is worth $$ in my barn is worth $$$ in his barn it is because he has worked his whole life to make those connections. The horse business is like every other sales industry - sales people cultivate long term relationships with people who buy their product.

I think in some ways you are saying you want to play with the big boys but you don't want to have to live in their playground http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I would not think that you would be able to command the same prices for your horses being an amateur, that a pro can. It's their *business*. You are saying your an amatuer, and it's not your business. So you don't spend the same amount of time and money that they do cultivating relationships... you don't show every weekend to be around those people.. you don't hold their hand while they get divorced, remarried, divorced, have a bad hair day... do you want to? I sure don't.

You will never pay the same amount of money for anything at a flea market as you will at an antique store.

[This message was edited by EqTrainer on Apr. 05, 2004 at 04:22 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not understand your post, so I am guessing that you do not understand my postition.

1. I use trainers as my agent to help me sell my horses. But I expect them to not break the law and look out for themsleves first. If the trainer hears that BNT xyz has a customer who has $150k to spend and she is looking for a horse just like mine, then I expect my agent to act legally and ethically --- which is to try to get as much $$ FOR ME as he can.

I do not expect the agent to say "You said you would take $75k, so that means that it is OK if I take the other $75k for one week's work. And that it is OK for me to not tell you how much your horse sold for [the correlary to this thought is: "because you would be upset and outraged if you found out what I had done."]

"I don't care that you, as my client, found and bought this horse, started him, have paid EVERY expense for two years, including paying me to train and show the horse and further do not care that you have taken all the risks that this horse will stay sound and be a winner. It is irrelevant to me that I have been paid for everything I have done for you and your horse up to this moment; that I have absolutely no risk and no financial stake in this horse. If he gets hurt or dies of colic, my balance sheet will not change by one iota. The only thing that I care about is that I deserve to get 50% of the money recieved in this transaction."

That is NOT OK with me, or with the law; unless such an arrangement has been agreed to between the parties, it is illegal -- the trainer MAY NOT skim off the top. Either could the officers at Enron. The size of the skimming is different, but the principle is the same.

Is this what you mean when you say that I am trying to play with the big boys and am trying to change a system that was in place when I started playing this game?

[As an aside, I have been "in this game" since 1953. I have been in it longer than 99% of the trainers out there. And it wasn't "this way" when I joined the game. I have seen the situation deteriorate and get more and more unethical and illegal over the decades. When I started playing this game, the norm was for the trainer/agent to take a straight commission which was agreed to by the parties before hand.

Over the years, the dishonest element has grown and grown, like a tumor, until it now threatens to engulf the industry.

But I don't think that "who came first -- me or the unethical, double dipping, commission skimming trainers" is an argument worth pursuing for either of us.] &lt;---- LOL. I LOVE that sentence! After being an attorney for 18 years,I have just surpassed myself in creating the ultimate in perjorative verbiage. GOOD GOING, LHU!



2. I have no control over the relationship between the buyer's agent and the buyer. If they want to agree that the buyer will buy said trainer an estate at Wellington in exchange for finding the perfect horse, then that is their business.

The only thing objectional to me is secret dealings, stacking commissions, and not maximizing benefits for the client in the transaction, in violation of the express or implied understanding between the parties.

I guess I have trouble seeing how anyone who understands ethics and the law can disagree with that point.

PS: You completely lost me with your final statement. I guess you are calling me and my barn a flea market while a BNT's barn is an antique store. Is that really what that means?

If you like that analogy that much, I will carry it one step further: If I take my fine antique to a top antique store and ask them to sell it for me, the terms of the consignment are agreed to up front. If the antique store says that they will only pay me X amount no matter what they get for it, and if I do not agree to those terms, then I am free to take my antique to another store.

BUT if I reach an agreement with the fine antique store that my item is there to be sold and I will get 60%/80%/90% of the sales price, with the store taking the difference as their commission, and then, after the fact, I find out that they have lied to me and taken more than the % we agreed to, do you not agree that I have a right to be upset and to pursue my remedies to get that which is rightfully mine, and which they have fraudulently taken from me?

I know that the Civil Code agrees with me. So I guess it really is irrelevant if you do, too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Apr. 05, 2004 at 10:48 PM.]

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Apr. 05, 2004 at 11:01 PM.]

findeight
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:37 PM
Well, since I got back into it in 1994....

I have bought two horses with my trainer as agent. Both checks went to the OWNERS with a seperate commision check to the trainer. I had all info on the owners and was free to contact them.

On the lease horses, from trainers in two states?

One was leased solely by me back in Boston and I paid the fee to the OWNER, who happened to be another trainer. Paid a separate comission to my trainer. Let me add this was a really CHEAP lease on a wonderful old horse despite the trainers involved, they really wanted a caring situation for this 17 year old and I got my money's worth. Did right by him on the maintainance front too.

One was owned by another client and I half leased, paying my half DIRECTLY to the leasee.

One I leased from the trainer then half leased to another working Adult, she paid me DIRECTLY for her half of all billable expenses.

The ones I bought..(well, since I got back in in 94)
One was rescued starving in a field for 4500. Proved not to be for me..but I loved watching him get some jogs in tough AA company in the First Years..and he paid his way even though he wasn't the best or brightest.

The second came in as a sale horse when I had had it with the other one that kept ditching me. Just happened to be hacking her when the head trainer came in and said "oh, I never thought of that for you, go jump that line..which was a 3'3" 3x3 combo when I was terrified by the other horse's misbehavior at 2'6".

She then said "Oh you really click with her, do you like her"? I said yeah, she was ok based on the 20 minutes I'd been on her.
Trainer said "this might be the one for you, you need her to restore your confidence and she needs you to direct her"

Boy, was that the best advice I EVER got..4 years later I am confident, at age 55, in the 3' with her..and we illustrated my trainer's article on Adult Hunters in the June '03 Practical Horseman...

Yeah, I need to wrestle the sport back from the person that got me 2 cheap lease horses and helped with half leases, a 4500 starving rehab, that ended up a First Year AA level horse and got me the perfect Adult Hunter that reguarly pins well despite my rides and got us pictured in a National Magazine, illustrating same trainer's article, to amaze and astound my friends and family. This is a bad thing becase....http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
The trainer made it all happen???


The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

findeight
Apr. 5, 2004, 07:48 PM
But Merry's example is a good and valid one based on personal experience. That's what we need to concentrate on..sorry Merry.
Trust you'll not deal with or recommend that "trainer person" again..and share that with any who ask

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 08:04 PM
LH.. if you were approached by a BNT who said "I understand you are marketing your horse for $75,00.. I have a client who will pay $150,000 for him, I want the difference"...

what would you do? If all the information were laid out on the table for you, would you take it?

No I don't think your barn is like a fleamarket. I just wanted to remind that treasure is found everywhere, but the place it is found often adds or subtracts value from it. It is an ugly truth that people assume a horse is valuable if it is surrounded by other valuable horses and other people spending money.

findeight
Apr. 5, 2004, 08:39 PM
er....
I've sat on LHUs 100 year old porch in the June dusk with a nice glass of wine, looking at the bazillion dollar "horse resorts" of her neighbors in Lexington and that ain't no flea market by ANY definition.

And she does have nice horses..whatever problems she has marketing and selling, quality and performance are not the issue.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 08:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
er....
I've sat on LHUs 100 year old porch in the June dusk with a nice glass of wine, looking at the bazillion dollar "horse resorts" of her neighbors in Lexington and that ain't no flea market by ANY definition.

And she does have nice horses..whatever problems she has marketing and selling, quality and performance are not the issue.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ohhhhh.. I *really* did not mean to imply anything about the quality of LH's horses or farm. I certainly could have picked a better analogy (slap to head)..

there was NO offense intended.

findeight
Apr. 5, 2004, 08:51 PM
Doubt she took any either.
Just wanted to make it clear where she stands..and she is a lovely person.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Judi
Apr. 5, 2004, 09:17 PM
Hey Eq. Trainer. I have to say I agree 100% with LHU.

The question you just asked demonstrates the riduclous pricing of horses in general. A horse is worth what someone will pay you say. I say... that is what is ruining the sport.
--------------------
Let's take the scenario you paint:
LH.. if you were approached by a BNT who said "I understand you are marketing your horse for $75,00.. I have a client who will pay $150,000 for him, I want the difference"...

what would you do? If all the information were laid out on the table for you, would you take it?
---------------------------------
A horse shouldn't be worth $75K more just because some owner is stupid enough to pay whatever a BNT says the horse is worth...especially when they could have gotten the exact same horse from a lesser known trainer who isn't going to make $75K from a horse they never owned, trained or even worked with.. just brokered?

Why should this poor buyer be suckered for $50K? And why in the world would I want to help some BNT do so? What? Just because some people have so much money they deserve to be ripped off? Shame on all of us if we agree that is ethical. There should be a better standard to understand a "Blue Book" value of a horse that considers... Age, Show Experience, Health, Athletic ability, Breeding... etc. That is how a horses worth should be determined. Not by what a BNT thinks they can get from some unknowledgable owner he is brokering the deal for.

Obviously we can't stop people from making poor choices.. it's done a thousand times a day in the business world.

But what LHU is trying to say is it doesn't reflect well on the horse busines in general if we say ........"Good for that BNT... he just ripped that unsuspecting buyer off by marking that horse up 100%. Wow.. he made 75K in one week. Wow.. .look at that nice car they just bought from the profit from the sell. Oooo I wish I could be them!"

And the thought that someone is paying $75K more to a BNT because the BNT has babysat them through a divorce and bad hair day? What?

Where is the professionalism in this sport? That is what LHU is asking. We need to stop letting BNT's (or anyone) broker a dishonest deal like this. We need to stop buying horses when we can't talk to the previous owner and understand the horses history... his likes.. his dislikes....

We are the only one's who can stop this craziness. Because as Eq. Trainer points out. "Hey if the BNT's can get away with it... Why not... they think it's their right to... for putting up with us."

I say we all start rewarding the honest trainers and brokers out there by only buying our horses from people who represent themselves and their horses in the most honest and upfront professional way.

Now.. I'm going to step off my soap box and say that I also agree with findeight and state that all trainers are indeed not like this. I LOVE and trust my trainer. He found me my dream horse and he negotiated with the seller to get me a wonderful deal even though he was the broker. I paid a 10% commision fee and everyone was happy.

But hey... this string has certainly reminded me that I'm ever so glad I purchased my horse from an upfront honest trainer.

And if I ever need to buy another horse I will be vary careful about going to some BNT to do so because it seems it is the natural course of business to just "get what you can get"... and forget about what the horse is ACTUALLY worth.


sheesh....

http://community.webshots.com/user/stewartjudi

hifi
Apr. 5, 2004, 09:25 PM
To the original post. Itis idealistic and a really great thought, but I have absolutely no hope of changing things like that. It is a money driven sport and the exhibitor is the bank account, plain and simple. I haven't read any of the other posts, so I have no ideas on other's thoughts.

Poindexter, may he rest in peace.
Bobbie please rest in peace.
www.melodicfarms.com (http://www.melodicfarms.com)

xegeba
Apr. 5, 2004, 09:42 PM
hifi... smartest thing said thus far...Tennis anyone?

EqTrainer
Apr. 5, 2004, 09:51 PM
Allergies + decongestant = insomnia.

Judi, here is a REAL LIFE story I can tell you about clients and their money.

I recently had a trainer call me about a horse I have for sale... when I told her the price she said "oh no.. this woman has $40,000 and she is determined to spend every penny of it. I think your horse would be perfect for her, but he isn't priced high enough. I've talked to her about paying less but she is certain that she will get a better horse for more money".

I told her to run around and look at lots of $40k horses and if she can't find one to pack her around, to give me a call and perhaps he would still be for sale. For under $20k. The trainer laughed and said it might be a while before her client would spend less money.

That is a true story.

You are fooling yourself if you think that buyers are the innocent lambs. Do you think that when people have $75,000 to spend, they do a search on www.equine.com (http://www.equine.com) in the $25k category? Not likely. Do you think that if a BNT tells his client who wants to spend $150k for a horse that he has the perfect one for $75k that will make them HAPPY? You do not understand how those people think. *They think that money buys ribbons* and that the more they spend, the more of them they will get.

There are two kinds of horse people in the world - the kind who know you have to work for it, and the kind who think you can buy it. I think you may have those two groups somewhat confused. I also think it's funny that you think a very wealthy person would necessarily be upset about their trainer making $75k on a deal. They are business people, too. $75k is a staggering sum of money to me, but I know that it's not to everyone.

I still think it's odd that people can't seem to grasp that when a BNT sells a horse to a client, he is not just selling that horse on that day. When you say "just brokering the horse" the implication is that he has done nothing but pass on info. I disagree. I don't think there are many gimme's in this business. He has most likely been building that relationship for a long time.. other horses have come and gone.. many hours have been spent getting to know that person... etc. etc. etc. Most sales oriented businesses work that way. My dad sold machine tooling and he worked like a dog to get to know people.. to know their kids, their dogs name, their lifestory. And he enjoyed it, but it was STILL HIS JOB. If he broke out his commissions by the hour he probably would have cried, even though he made a good living.

I have said it before and I will say it again, YES there are unethical and illegal things going on in the horse world. But the ordinary day to day business of selling horses works for a reason... because that is what the customer wants. They have the money, they have the power. Anyone at anytime can go buy a horse from anyone they want to. Judi, I have explained to people (on my time, BTW, that I was NOT getting compensated for) how they were being taken for a ride, so to speak, by their trainer.. I have done it more than once. They DO NOT want to hear it.

Regarding "what is a horse worth".. that truly can only be answered by what someone will pay for it. I would not give a dime for a gaited horse. They are financially *worthless* to me. But I understand that people pay exorbitant amounts of money for Tennessee Walkers. I have an idea of what a certain type of horse is worth in *my* area but that changes, geographically, for many different reasons. People like different types in different places. To some people, prospect means under $5k. To some it means under $50k. How can anyone say "what a horse is worth" with such certainty?

I think a truly fascinating thread would be about "Buyers who want to buy a really nice horse and expect their trainer to negotiate down past what the horse is truly worth for no good reason other than the buyer wants to *get a deal*".

I'll bet more trainers on this board have had that awful experience (am I supposed to try to rip someone off because I'm working for this client and that's what they want?!!!) than the other one &lt;LOL&gt;

[This message was edited by EqTrainer on Apr. 06, 2004 at 01:03 AM.]

Judi
Apr. 5, 2004, 10:21 PM
Well Eq. Trainer. I do know you are right. I've heard similar stories of people who would not buy the lesser priced horse and therefor the trainer marked the horse up so the buyer would be happy with their $40K horse. Sigh.

And to those people... you are absolutely right.. they have gotten exactly what they paid for the "bragging rights" to own a $40K horse (or a $250K horse) And I will be honest with you... I do not deny you, or any other trainer for that matter, to get the highest price they can for an animal.

It's just too bad that the industry can't represent horses with a pricing that is based on horses talent and ability rather than trainer relationships. I was purely remarking on your comment about $150K for a $75K horse that the broker/trainer hadn't really trained or worked with.... just brokered the deal.

I know the industry is like this... I know that money buys ribbons. I'm very glad that i'm in the classifaction of people who have to work for thier money and ribbons. I've got a wonderful horse who can't compete against the 6 figure horses in the 3 foot Adult Hunters because he's just not refined enough. Thank goodness for the Jumpers which is the equalizer for us hard working riders with big-hearted horses. At least we can put in a great round and win on a good day.

http://community.webshots.com/user/stewartjudi

khobstetter
Apr. 5, 2004, 10:43 PM
Good Lord MissDog....did not even mean to
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Khobstetter....no need to talk down to a "dumb amature". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And as far as quoting me with the quotation marks....never in my wildest dreams would I ever refer to an Amateur as 'dumb"...if you want to quote me then PLEASE get it right..

If you saw my post as a "talking down" to, I am truly sorry...I personally loved your example and my answer was simple...PUT A HALTER ON YOUR HORSE AND TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE....that is NOT talking "down" to anyone...that is absolutely great advice for someone who is offended by the example...PUT THE HALTER ON THE HORSE AND TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

And THAT is my point...YOU GUYS ARE IN CONTROL...but some of you don't function that way...the ONLY reason a trainer can get away with that is because owners stand there and let them..

Again I say...please get organized and make some changes. I will help in any way I can BUT you guys really are in control....so TAKE control and run with it, run the OTHER way in these deals.

The fix to the problems you guys have been discussing here is actually pretty simple. Use a consignment form that lays out the agreement.

My consignment agreements give the owner 3 choices..
1. State a price, sign the agreement. I can get ANYTHING I want for the horse.
2. State a price...I do the training and care and I get 15%.
3. State a price...you pay EVERYTHING and I get 10%.

You, the customer get to decide which works best for you.

DO NOT ASK ME WHY...BUT for some reason alot of people pick #1... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

xegeba
Apr. 5, 2004, 11:07 PM
Personally, I would be Super happy if my trainer came to me and said he had found the perfect horse for me for half of what I would be willing to spend. Haven't run across that particular scenario yet...

Tory Relic
Apr. 6, 2004, 01:46 AM
This is very educational. I see two senarios here with sellers. Those that sell for themselves, like LHU, pay a trainer for all services separately, and those like EqTrainer and Khobstetter, who take a horse on consignment and absorb the costs while they have the horse. These situations, to me, are apples and oranges. I also see different buyers -- the ones who want a good horse for as little as they can pay and others who want to brag that they have a $$$ horse in their barns. Am I following so far?

And Findeight, I do think you have a point about believing "stories" heard about such things. I believe LHU because I've known her for years on another forum. I haven't had the pleasure of sitting on her porch in Lexington, though. I -- no offense to others -- tend to take things with a grain of salt otherwise, except in the case of the posters mentioned above, I do understand their position on consignments. I find these boards to be very educational, but certainly only one source for educating myself.

Interesting discussion all around.

sherman1
Apr. 6, 2004, 02:54 AM
who said "I understand you are marketing your horse for $75,00.. I have a client who will pay $150,000 for him, I want the difference"...

what would you do? If all the information were laid out on the table for you, would you take it?
---------------------------------
A horse shouldn't be worth $75K more just because some owner is stupid enough to pay whatever a BNT says the horse is worth...

your post makes a lot of sense but.....on the circuit what about those people who will simply not even look at a horse that is below $100k? It's not just the trainer's that are twisted. JoJo with her trust fund isn't going to show up to lunch and brag about the steal she got at the track for $20k. They pay big prices for horses because they're the ones in high demand. The trainers know if it's desirable enough-- somebody will pay the price.

Elghund2
Apr. 6, 2004, 04:03 AM
Last I knew, the client is the one holding the checkbook. If you don't like what is happening then don't write the check.

If you're an adult then there is no reason to feel "controlled" by a trainer. Make your own decisions. Use your brain. If you don't do that then it is your own fault.

"I thought I was dead once but it turns out, I was only in Nebraska."

Jumphigh83
Apr. 6, 2004, 04:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
Pony jumpers likewise are no fault of the pros
Just that the division languishes due to lack of interest and/or lack of kids small enough.seems when those 8 year olds finally grow and get strong, they are to darn tall http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Parents don't want to buy Pony Jumpers for the kiddies and that's not the trainers fault either
Whole idea of having to "wrest control" from the pros is BOGUS..and that's just MHO.
Good trainers have very little to do with what is wrong in the sport. Have to say that more people then ever are able to participate in this sport and there is more right them wrong.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I wouldn't know about the pony jumpers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I have only been there done that....I can assure you the downfall of the PJs is the negative attitude of the trainers.(out of the mouth of one of the BEST pony trainers out there) Trainers have EVERYTHING to do with influencing the sport for the good AND the bad. Believing otherwise is naive. THat is not to say there are not great ones out there but even the great ones can make uninformed, short sighted decisions.

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com (http://www.threewindsfarmny.com)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Ruby G. Weber
Apr. 6, 2004, 05:04 AM
Here's another side of the coin. The following scenario has taken place on more than one occasion.

Trainer tells client up front they make a 10% or 15% commission, whatever, the percentage doesn't matter. Trainer finds suitable horse for client, arrange trial, brokers deals, negotiates deal. Horse passes pre purchase, client pays owner directly for horse. Deal done. Client pays trainer, right? Not.

Client wants to wait to pay trainer until the new horse arrives from Germany or until the papers arrive or wants trainer to take less because the horse was "expensive" or wants trainer to take another horse in on trade instead of cash.

All of the above are true stories. How do I know they are fact? Because they happened to us!

MistyBlue
Apr. 6, 2004, 05:50 AM
Ruby...I can believe it. Tons of people want something for nothing. However at the point when they start coming up with alternate payment scenerios after a sale has taken place is when you point to the signed contract and it's requirements and tell them with a smile that you cannot do that as you have a a contract to uphold, but you'd be more than happy to write up a new one after the first one has been paid for for the next transaction.
Sometimes I think the business end of this business is just not treated 100% like business. Many of us are in it because it's a passion of ours, but when it comes to the business transaction part of any deal....treat it like any other business.
Any client who leaves a contract open to losing a ton of money deserves to lose a ton of money. It's stupidity and a fool and his/her moaney definitely will soon be parted. Shame on the brokers who insist to the naive horse sellers that ALL equine sales are handled without the seller knowing what's going on price-wise. But that's it...shame. It's unethical to be sure, but if everyone allows it to happen because "that's how things are" then they deserve the hit to the wallets. If that person is a BNT, then thousands of mindless sheep who are otherwise business savy will follow along blindly.
For me personally as a buyer I wold insist on dealing with the seller themselves when the money part of the equation comes up. Not necessarily face to face if that's not what they wish....but through the contract. I've sold houses cheaper than some horses sell for, but you can guarantee the sales contract is signed by the seller and NOT the other agent. The contract for sale and the check are made out to the seller. If the seller then feels grategful enough with the large sales price to reward the broker above and beyond a % fee, then so be it. But it's the seller's commodity to sell and the money is theirs. As a seller, darned tooting I want to know exactly what MY horse sold for.
Take the emotions out of the business end folks. Don't care if your broker is a HUGE NT or a local NT...it's still YOUR horse and your commodity to be sold. When selling anything, it goes from friendship to business. And good business folk don't do business with friends.

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

Hidden Hill Farm
Apr. 6, 2004, 05:58 AM
I does happen all the time. It has happened to just about everyone I know (including myself) at least once. It's like going out for a nice meal and getting an extra bottle of wine and saying --- well, I guess there's just no money left for a tip....so sorry, here'a quarter and some lint from my pocket!!

eclipse
Apr. 6, 2004, 06:07 AM
Sometimes it's also on the owner's heads to why they got ripped off. Case in point: Know of a person who is trying to sell horse for $xx. They don't have any luck as they are asking too much. So, they go to new barn & new trainer is going to sell horse for them. I ask owner if they have a clause saying that seller will get 10% of price. Nope, all they want is $xx & they don't care what the trainer takes!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I say, well what happens if the trainer sells your horse for double or even triple the price. They said it didn't matter as all they want is the price they're asking! Good grief, way to get ripped big time!!

"Don't bother me; I'm living happily ever after!"

Flash44
Apr. 6, 2004, 06:11 AM
The one time I sold a horse through a trainer, we agreed on a flat fee commission if the horse sold under a certain amount, and a commission of 10% if he sold above that price.

There is something really unethical about an agent NOT disclosing their client the details of the transaction. No one likes to get fleeced. A client goes to an agent in the first place because they need the agent's expertise. Most people are willing to pay a professional for time, effort and connections, but most people don't want to be taken for a ride as well.

Lord Helpus
Apr. 6, 2004, 06:27 AM
Ruby,

I agree that not complying with an agreement is certainly not the sole province of the agents. Buyers and Sellers also run the gamut from correct to unethical. But, the reverse of KHobstetter's statement about taking the horse elsewhere, applies here: If the client does not live up to the agreement, the he is in breach of contract and should not be tolerated. The trainer should feel free to tell the client not to let the door hit him on the way out.

The trainer has no more obligation to deal with clients who do not live up to their end of the contract, than customers have to continue to do business with trainers who take advantage of them.

The only difference I see is that the trainer KNOWS when he is being ripped off. All too often, because of the secrecy in horse dealings, with buyer and seller never signing the same bill of sale, the client does not even know that her trust in her trainer is misplaced.

Back in the 1980's I was sitting at a table in Arizona (before Indio took over the winter circuit -- we went from the Phoenix A to Z show to Tuscon, etc) with VHV and we were talking about this very issue of trainers inflating prices and double dipping. Victor said that it was his policy to never handle the money going from buyer to seller. He always had the buyer pay the seller directly and then each party took care of their own agent.

His point was that, to do anything else, leaves the trainer/agent open to accusations of being unethical and can leave the trainer liable for any money that gets "lost" between the two principals. VHV did not want to be put in either position, so it was his policy to never handle the money.

I know he practiced what he preached since he and my mother did a number of horse sales and purchases in the 1960's and 1970's and once the deal was done, the principals were put together to finalize the transfer of funds. The final deal was the sale of my last junior horse when I went to college. I was over 18 by then and so I was the one to sign the sales contract. I miss Victor for many reasons, that being just one of them.

Findeight -- thank you for the nice words. Your, er, commission check is in the mail. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Apr. 06, 2004 at 09:42 AM.]

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Apr. 06, 2004 at 09:43 AM.]

xegeba
Apr. 6, 2004, 10:59 AM
Lord Helpus, you are just so logical! Hate that!

Lucassb
Apr. 6, 2004, 11:03 AM
Well - that was a long and interesting read.

I approach this issue from the viewpoint of a relatively knowledgeable amateur client - but one who has had many levels of involvement with horses I have owned. I have been a groom, barn manager and rider in multiple disciplines, and I consider myself educated about riding in general and horse care - but these days, I am not the one who provides that care to my horses on a daily basis.

The issue of "wrestling control" back from the trainers frankly puzzles me.

I already have a (pretty demanding) job. Riding is my sport, my recreation and my passion. I don't *want* it to be my second job - I don't want to manage shows, or run a barn, or get involved in reconfiguring the rules of the sport. At this point in my life, I want to ride my horses, show them when I have the opportunity, and continue to improve. I enjoy grooming my guys, but I am not at the barn everyday, and when I am not, they are groomed by the staff... ditto for riding them, farrier care etc. By anyone's estimation... my trainer is in control. Works for me.

It is not that I don't recognize that there are many practices that could be improved in our sport. I know many people who have not had the benefit of the education I've had and who have been ripped off by trainers as a result, and that's a shame. We lose many people from the sport to that type of mistreatment every year. I don't think that a mom or dad should have to become an expert in order to protect themselves from a trainer; but by the same token I think a little common sense goes a long way (I will write one check to the seller of this nice horse, and one check for our agreed upon commission to you, mr. trainer...)

As for most of the other issues... I am with those who say, "vote with your feet/wallet."

**********
"It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that
matters, in the end."
-Ursula K. Le Guin

Flash44
Apr. 6, 2004, 11:32 AM
Some trainers TAKE control. Cruise around and you'll find that many of the bigger show trainers have lesson and competition requirements in order to be allowed to board at their facility (remember that thread?). After several years of boarding with a trainer and being TOLD that the policy is X lessons a month, Y shows, etc, you begin to get comfy with the trainer "running the show." Especially when the training is saying, "You know, I think a realistic goal for you this year is qualifying for zone finals" or whatever, and next thing you know, you are doing more and more to reach these goals...it's a psychological thing. The goal turns into an obsession for you, and the trainer a means of getting there.

We've had threads about lesson/showing requirements in barns, "the list" of matching equipment some trainers present new clients, trainers who scream, etc. It's not the fault of the trainers, some of us just put ourselves in the position to be led along by the nose without considering other alternatives (I did once).

Janet
Apr. 6, 2004, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Riding is my sport, my recreation and my passion. I don't *want* it to be my second job - I don't want to manage shows, or run a barn, or get involved in reconfiguring the rules of the sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I guess I am just a glutton for punishment. In addition to a full time technical job, AND riding/competing I DO want to (and do) manage shows (or at least clinics), run my own barn, get involved in reconfiguring the rules. I wouldn't have it any other way.

No wonder every day seems too short!

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Snowbird
Apr. 6, 2004, 03:01 PM
Well Janet I'm really glad you want to view all sides of this arena because without involvement of the members there will be a runaway wagon with the sport inside waiting to crash. You give me a little hope for the future.

One factor with runaway prices is this gross misunderstanding of the difference between paper money and real money. It started with a tax loophole which has since been plugged but no one seems to have noticed. When horses could be made a small business and then all the expenses were tax sheltered there needed to be a substantial depreciation figure. SO paper was exchanged that established the value of the horse at say $250,000 and then it could be depreciated for seven years, BUT IT WAS ONLY ON PAPER.

While we were losing our sportsmanship we also lost some manners. In the ancient days when I was young NO ONE would ever admit that they spent more than $2500 on a horse because it would have implied they were not a good trainer to have to spend so much on the purchase of a horse. NO ONE would ever have asked how much a horse cost and NO ONE would have ever answered and said how much a horse cost. And, yes! while we're at it No One would have asked to ride your horse, and certainly No One ever had someone else qualify it for anything. I can still remember being told that asking to ride some one's horse was like asking to sleep with their wife. In our culture a no-no.

I don't understand why a trainer is not entitled to a profit for their time and expertise. Now, if we all were like lawyers and could charge for phone calls then we all would be very rich. There's the time on the phone finding a horse "a charge?" there's the time describing the possibilities "another charge" there's the time going to see the horse "another charge" there's the time needed to try the horse "another charge" there's all the time it takes to help the client make a decision "another charge". There's all the time spent after the purchase building self confidence and giving advice that's not during a paid lesson "another charge".

This is a two headed monster which has not grown all by itself. By expecting all the free service and free professional help and attention the arena for untruth was created.

For some reason people frequently feel that their board pays for all that extra time, it doesn't. Or a lesson should have a half hour of conversation on each side of the lesson at no charge but that's not fair.

It is the lack of business professionalism that caused the problems of lying and cheating and basically stealing because it is technically fraud.

Some one offers you a five carat diamond for $500 and you buy it and then it is confiscated for having been stolen or it's a fake diamond. Who is more guilty? The scam artist who ripped you off or you for expecting to get something for nothing?

We as horse people have created an atmosphere of upsmanship and we are never to blame! It's the nasty show manager who over charges, it's the dishonest Steward who has been bribed, it's the crooked political judge who stole it from you, it's the course designer who rigged the course for short strides and your horse has long strides, now it's the trainer. Well, folks you're running out of people to blame and we're getting there to the people who are fighting to spend the money and to run and have been swindled into believing that bigger is better, that more is better and everything is on the table except the knowledge and skills of the client.

If you want your sport back, then buy young horses and make them, learn to train and ride. It works a lot better than spend and spend and spend. If a trainer wants to keep you enslaved they just don't teach you what you need to know so that you will need them always. Where is their advantage in teaching you if it means you won't need them and you pay and pay and pay.

As clients you set your goals, you decide what you need to learn and you go where it can get done. As long as winning is the sport instead of riding of course there will scam artists who will take your money.

Priorities please! There's enough blame for everyone to share a little of it. You get what you wish for and sometimes you wish you hadn't, C'est la vie and short cuts.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Apr. 06, 2004 at 06:16 PM.]

pwynnnorman
Apr. 6, 2004, 03:17 PM
For the record, I'm "somewhat" thrilled that this thread is still going--I wasn't ignoring it: I've been on the road.

Also for the record: Sales? I'm not saying y'all shouldn't argue whatever you want to argue, but I really didn't have a thought in my mind about the market when I posted originally.

On the topic of sales, however (and it's kinda interesting how this thread has sort-of become TWO threads, in a way), it's interesting that a couple people seem to want to make that my motivation. I've never been all that keen on selling to h/j people because of these issues, but I have. But please do note that if the focus of my breeding program was "hunter ponies" it wouldn't be called Sportponies...

Oddly enough, I have a pony that I WAS pushing as a pony jumper who popped around Training and Prelim x-c fences just this weekend and thanks to the nice, honest, hardworking, "I want what's best FOR MY STUDENT, not me" (yes, eventing) trainers it looks like I could end up doing a lot better with him than through my original "marketing effort"--thanks solely to their expertise. The pony has talent. Why do you suppose that h/j trainers have no interest in real jumping talent (jumper-jumping talent, that is, not hunter)? Basically, and sadly, in h/j-dom, there's no market for jumping talent, except in those divisions that the pros dominate...hmmm, I wonder why?

I certainly have my biases--of course that's why I'd like to see Pony Jumpers develop (and, IMO, trainers ARE the reason they're miserable). It's the same as the argument I make for the "cob" division: Now tell me, WHO in the sport would BENEFIT from a division for that size range--and puleeeeze, don't tell me it can't be done because of other classes. How about combining the PROFESSIONAL DIVISIONS which are such poor performers (in numbers) to make room for a division FOR THE EXHIBITORS?

I won't repeat the argument I make on my website, but basically, folks (as someoone else said), if you're going to talk about sales, then realize that NOT having a cob division increases the prices of the "right" sized horses. If you can't figure out why...well, I'll explain later.

Think about it, though: if EXHIBITORS had a hand in what classes get priority, they'd make room for a Cob division, for sure.

Lastly, weighing in, for the record again: I think pony jumpers SUCK because, as someone did indicate, it is a whale of a lot easier to "train" a kid to ride a hunter than a jumper. And speaking of PONY CLUB! Gosh, you ought to see the stadium rounds PC'ers do in THIS country. THEY don't seem to think that kids are "unsafe" jumping 3': what is that? C-1 height? Nope, it's just taht kids have to prove they've actually learned something (i.e. got taught somehow) before they can go into the ring at x-level.

Whoops, I'm getting waaaay off track. Sorry.

Weekend warriors can leave it up to their trainers, that's fine. But why leave what you are allowed to do (like what classes at shows are offered/supported) that way? Even the thread about the A/A class being more expensive illustrates this. If A/A's support most shows, why AREN'T their classes the ones that get the msot money? Why is it--can anyone see a pattern here--the PROFESSIONAL DIVISIONS that can earn the most money?

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

EqTrainer
Apr. 6, 2004, 03:40 PM
Snowbird, I have toyed around with the "charge like a lawyer" concept lately. A LOT. And I am thinking it may be the only way to draw attention to the incredible amount of service a client gets from us - day in, day out. Not only when they buy a horse.

I recently raised my rates and during a phone call (yes, Hidden Hill, it was during dinner, and my husband had COOKED) from a mom to discuss her daughters goals with her new horse, she asked me if when her lessons run closer to 45 minutes than an hour would she be able to pay less? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Snowbird
Apr. 6, 2004, 04:06 PM
At one point in my enthusiastic youth I sat down and did an ala carte bill for an average client. $5 to take the horse out to the pasture and bring it back in and put it away, I think I figured $1.50 each to put on leg wraps. When all was said and done, even way back in pre-history on a per item ala carte charge board would have been $1200 a month.

If we were really business people and figured our phone, electric, insurance, hot water, extra tack, bits, blankets, shampoo, medication, clippers, taxes and mortgage on a per capita basis monthly as a surcharge we might start to be business people. Now the feedman and the shavings man are not afraid to tack on a $5 ssurcharge for gasoline, and it's not as if he was making a special trip just to me is it after all?

As professionals what we are guilty of is undervaluing our knowledge experience and investment. As amateurs people think because they trust us with their children, that we are friends and friends don't charge do they?

Battle Scarred Veteran

Flash44
Apr. 6, 2004, 04:31 PM
You ladies better stop answering the phone during dinner or you won't have husbands to cook for you anymore! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lord Helpus
Apr. 6, 2004, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hidden Hill Farm:

So, off I go to pound the pavement. If I find one that suits her needs, at a reasonable price, I'll take a gamble, pay to have it vetted, buy it, bring it home, take it to a horse show and they'll fly in for the weekend (while I rent them a car, take them out to dinner, put them up in my guest house and get nothing else done all weekend). Do you really think I should smile and be happy accepting 10% in that case??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


HHF -- You are not talking about acting as agent and getting a commission for finding a horse for these people. You are talking about BUYING a horse, taking the risk that your friend might not like it, and spending your own money showing it to find out if it is as nice as you thought it was.

I don't think that anyone begrudges you the chance to make a nice profit on a horse you own. If you have the eye and contacts to find a nice horse and are willing to risk its continued soundness, its marketablity, its training, its talent -- then you deserve to make a profit.

But, if we are talking about making money as an agent in a sales transaction the rule is: ANY profit made is fine and fair IF it complies with the terms of the agreement between the parties.

That is all I am trying to say. You can make a huge profit, you can charge 30% commission, you can stand on your head and twirl hula hoops with both arms, if that is part of the deal.

That is free enterprise. That is what our economy is based on. Go for it, and more power to you.

BUT... Any overreaching, or acting in collusion with other parties to the detriment of the client -- basically ANYTHING done which violates "good faith and fair dealing" is illegal, unethical and, hopefully, unacceptable.

And, beyond that, it will subject anyone who acts in such a manner to liability for their actions.

Judging from the number of BNT's who are willing to risk their very livlihood by drugging horses under their care, I am not sure if the fear of being sued for big bucks is enough of a deterrent to motivate them to act legally and ethically, but that's their choice and the risk they run is clear.

Showing horses is big business. It is no longer a sport. An incredible amount of money changes hands. Both the people who hire trainers/agents to buy or sell a horse for them, and the agents/trainers themselves, need to recognize that they are entering into a business relationship which is governed by the laws of the state in which they live. Clients AND trainers both need to treat their business dealings with openness, intelligence and maturity.

I am not making up these rules. The civil code of every state in the union has already done that. Anyone who acts in compliance with these laws is doing what is right. Anyone who doesn't, is doing wrong. It is not a tough concept to understand. It is so easy that children playing in a sandbox can understand right/wrong and fair/unfair. What has happened to the horse world that we no longer operate at the same moral level as kindergartners?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Apr. 06, 2004 at 09:40 PM.]

Beezer
Apr. 6, 2004, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
So Eq Trainer, you actually have clients that agree to this deal... I want 50,000.00 for Ranger, but if you sell him for 100,000.00 I want you to keep that extra 50,000.00.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm coming late to this discussion and from another vantage point, but ... I have to say, having been screwed once by a trainer I trusted who DOUBLED the price of a horse s/he he was acting as the agent on in the sale TO me, how do you think that made ME, the longtime client and buyer, feel?

It's not a word that I can use on a PG-rated bulletin board.

But, suffice to say, the vastly overpriced horse was removed from that barn, the trainer never got another dollar of my business and I will tell anyone who asks me an opinion of said individual.

It amazes me that "professionals" in this business think it is perfectly OK to tell a customer to essentially bend over and take it. What, pray tell, is WRONG with telling the buyer in the above scenario that you have found a lovely horse for him/her but -- GASP! -- it is not as much money as s/he wanted to spend??

Surely, I cannot be the only client who would not only kiss your feet and offer undying gratitude, but give you a hefty bonus and a huge bottle of champagne.

And, just think, everyone leaves the deal happy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

xegeba
Apr. 6, 2004, 09:13 PM
Well, according to some on this board, they actually have clients that don't want to spend less money!!!!! Can you stop making so much sense, Beezer...

Snowbird
Apr. 6, 2004, 09:23 PM
The fact is that if a trainer is specifically looking for a horse for a client and charges more than 10% plus expenses it is a blatant fraud. That fraud is enforceable under the law at a rate of 3 times the damages.

The fact that some hide this behind an assortment of subterfuges does not change the crime. Personally I think any trainer that takes that gamble is just plain stupid. There have been a couple of cases where the client for a $25,000 overcharge was awarded $75,000 in damages.

Battle Scarred Veteran

xegeba
Apr. 6, 2004, 09:25 PM
Maybe I should have bought that waaaay over-priced horse after all!

Linny
Apr. 7, 2004, 06:33 AM
Who exactly has convinced all these clients that they MUST spend a fortune to get a decent horse? The TRAINERS who are robbing them.
They have artificially inflated the price of a decent horse.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

Tory Relic
Apr. 7, 2004, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:

I recently raised my rates and during a phone call (yes, Hidden Hill, it was during dinner, and my husband had COOKED) from a mom to discuss her daughters goals with her new horse, she asked me if when her lessons run closer to 45 minutes than an hour would she be able to pay less? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reminds me of people at the first place I boarded my mare. The boarding fees were pretty rock bottom and it was a nice facility. Not a show barn, not dripping with amenaties, but nice for the horses. They had one horse, wanted to get a second, and wanted the BO to give them a half price board for the second horse. Since when is a second horse half the cost to keep and half the work to care for? You just have to wonder about people sometimes.

I did expect the people who boarded my horse to be available for phone calls and/or to return calls in a reasonable amount of time, but I didn't call very often.

Merry
Apr. 7, 2004, 08:49 AM
Okay, I have to share another true story from my experience. It's a little long yet funny:

A friend of ours bred warmbloods. She had this young gelding that was Mr. Joe Average. Since she lived out in the boonies, she asked us to help her sell it from our place. All I had to do was show the horse to prospective buyers. I was doing it merely as a favor to her, as a friend. We priced him at $10,000.

A nice, older ammy lady comes out from Los Angeles without her BNT. For the first time she's trying to be an independent buyer. Loves the horse. Vets him. He fails miserably! I mean, he's sound, but he has a laundry list of potential future problems.

I send the horse back to my friend's ranch, as I feel I've done my duty. She decides, what the heck, the horse is sound and he packs around a low course. Maybe someone will want him for $5,000. She calls around. A BNT-- at a major Los Angeles equestrian center-- tells her, "Oh, bring him up here. I can sell anything."

(You may see already where this is going). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Horse comes into BNT's barn for a couple of days. He thinks the horse is uber wonderful, despite the fact that my friend tells him UPFRONT that the horse won't vet. Nonetheless, he says, "Oh, I have the perfect buyer for this horse." (Yup, he happens to be the trainer of the lady who had just vetted the horse!)http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Unwittingly, he tells the lady on the phone that he's found, "the most wonderful horse" for her. And he's priced right... at $20,000! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Lady comes out, filled with great expectations. Horse is brought out, complete with song and dance from BNT about how wonderful he is. Imagine that moment when:

A) the lady realizes it's the same horse she already looked at on her own for $10,000 which failed the vetting

B) her own trainer has marked up the same horse's original price by 10 grand as he shows it to her

C) when the lady flips out my friend adds to the calamity by saying, "$20,000?!? That's one hell of a commission! I had priced him at $5,000 because we all know he won't vet!"

And yes, that customer left the BNT's barn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh, how I long to run with a wilder herd. Alas, I cannot. Damn the electric fence! Damn the electric fence!"~From Cow Poetry

Flash44
Apr. 7, 2004, 09:49 AM
A horse dealer sent a trainer I know a horse to sell, said horse was sound, quiet, etc. The first person who came out to look at the horse said, "I already looked at this horse at horse dealer's place and it failed the vet."

Snowbird
Apr. 7, 2004, 10:53 AM
Cheez! Why do you think they never repealed the "Hanging Law" for horse traders? Because in the old days if the trader sold a three legged horse it could cost a man his life. It's still a capital offense and so is horse stealing.

Don't assume a fancy barn and a nice car means an honest person. Most of the honest people I know have a beat up jalopy, fences coming down and driveways that need repairs.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Bumpkin
Apr. 7, 2004, 11:04 AM
A friend experienced a lesser example of what you just told us.

Trainer is told by friend they would like a nice quiet first horse for daughter, who had shown ponies, but under $5000. They told the trainer they were going to look also.
Saw an ad in the paper and tried this cute QH, for $2000. Wasn't what they wanted to they passed.
Two days later they get a call from the trainer telling them she had the perfect horse, for $5000, of course it is the QH.
The trainer told them some story about the horse that didn't mesh with what they heard from the owner.
When my friend called the owner of the horse, the owner was surprised as the trainer took the horse on trial, for herself, and had talked the owner down $500.
I am shocked at what some of these trainers try to get away with.

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

pwynnnorman
Apr. 7, 2004, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>THE PRO RIDING DOES NOT GET THE MONEY FOLKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unless there's some special arrangement between owner and pro, that money is usually kicked right back to the owner to cover entry fees and other related expenses.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It has nothing to do with who gets the money. It has to do with who gets "rewarded," "honored," "encouraged," etc. for supporting/enabling the class.

A/A's get to PAY to win. PROS get PAID. I am just saying that that could be evened out more (if anyone cared to re-examine the issue, which trainers and show managers DON'T care to): reward A/As for supporting the show. The owners of pro division horses hardly need all that prize money, given the prices they bring.

Again, my point though--not to get lost in the details--is that if shows and showing was more exhibitor-driven (and again, I'm talking about policies and procedures, folks--the rules of the game, if you will), you bet the rewards would be distributed differently!

It's a matter of PHILOSOPHY driving POLICY. This is what I've already written elsewhere:

"...debates about heights, distances and qualifications are all part of the sport's “big picture.” In an ideal world, decisions about such things would reflect the philosophy, mission and vision of the sport and its leadership. Indeed, I argue that a sport’s national governing body should be philosophically, as well as financially, sound."

I guess I'm just not able to get this across, but that was my whole point in bringing up this thread and why I labeled it the way I did. I regret that it turned into pro/con trainers since (as I also say elsewhere), it's not like trainers are consciously, collectively thrusting themselves upon the process. It's more like they're just filling a gap and are quite happy to let things develop/endure that support their bottom line rather than some "silly," idealistic vision.

Hey, does USEF even HAVE a vision (that's "vision" not "mission") statement? What about those proposed associations, NHJA and NHJCA (or whatever the letters are)?

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

barnie
Apr. 7, 2004, 07:33 PM
Just as more info for the discussion...in most instances, the buyers agent does a lot more than "broker" the deal. The horse and it's new owner come to live w/them and they become responsible to the new owner for making the new horse perform at a level that is consistant w/it's price. So if they sell a 75K for 150K, it must now act like it is a 150K horse.(And I am already familiar with the stories about saying it is the owners fault it doesn't work out...buy a new one...may happen, but not the norm.) The buyers agent must be able to make that horse worth what was paid for it. If he is a BNT...he has plenty of name and experience to help. You might not think it is fair for it to matter who stands at the gate...but it does!!! That is one of the reasons that it is soooo hard to price a horse . It is not a black and white event ...it is VERY subjective. It is quite possible someone can sell my 75K horse and it will become a "better" horse in the deal.I couldn't put Mrs. Smith on it and send her in the ring at WEF in the much older adults to be champion...but one of the really BNTs could. So should I get more for the horse because of what the other trainer can produce?

Now, talk amongst yourselves! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TQ
Apr. 7, 2004, 07:54 PM
Hidden Hill Farm

You have a PT

Tory Relic
Apr. 8, 2004, 08:39 AM
As I've posted previously, this is very educational. So, if I, as a breeder, have a horse I'm campaigning myself, maybe on the A circuit, and a BNT or even a LNT, sees it, sees it's for sale, and wants to bring it to his/her barn for polish, and says he/she will sell it for me, we agree on terms, and they sell the horse for twice my asking price. Say they've had the horse a month, taken it to some shows, asorbed all expenses. My $75k horse goes for $150k. I get the original $75k that I wanted. I'm good to deal with, the trainer expresses interest in "more like that." BUT, wouldn't, in almost any market, the tag on that next one go up for me if the original horse goes down to WEF and cleans up or even does very well? Couldn't I then market the next one as a full brother/sister to said horse and have that as a marketing tool? And enjoy some cachet from having bred said horse that may have a positive impact on future sales? Couldn't I ask BNT/LNT for a bigger bite next time? Wouldn't that work? If not, why?

Edited to add: I am not a breeder, this is academic to me.

LimoWrek
Apr. 8, 2004, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
THE OWNERS ARE PAYING THE BILLS. What is a trainer without any clients? Vote with your pocketbook and your feet. Support those who run their businesses to your standards, whether it be a small local show or whatever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What is a client without a trainer? A local joke who never wins at horse shows, for the most part. Oh, you would be that. Duh.

----
Crack is Whack!
Whitney doesn't do crack... Crack is cheap!

Ketch
Apr. 8, 2004, 09:13 AM
HHF,
No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to go out and pound that pavement. You are doing it as a favor, and therefore can't really complain about the low profit margin.

My trainers do extremely, and I mean extremely, well financially. Then again, I don't see them ever going out and pounding the pavement to fulfill a favor. It's a choice they have made in running their business, and a choice that you certainly have the freedom to make as well.

I will agree with you, however, that the demise of the 4 foot divisions is sad. An inevitable consequence of the exhorbitant price of owning and showing a top hunter these days. Four foot horses are hard, and expensive, to come by, whereas just about anything can go march around the 2'6" pre-adults.

Tory Relic
Apr. 8, 2004, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:

What is a client without a trainer? A local joke who never wins at horse shows, for the most part. Oh, you would be that. Duh.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Limowrek, what did you and your BNT win last? C'mon, give....inquiring minds want to know.

Snowbird
Apr. 8, 2004, 09:21 AM
Technically and legally as I understand it, if said party bought the horse from you for the $75K and then did all those things it would be legal to sell for $150K. BUT, if they did not buy the horse they are entitled to recover a fair amount for their time and expenses and then only 10%.

The gray line is whether or not you agreed that it was their horse for which you simply had not gotten a check or if it was your horse the whole time. For example if it had died was it your dead horse or their dead horse?

Battle Scarred Veteran

Tory Relic
Apr. 8, 2004, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Technically and legally as I understand it, if said party bought the horse from you for the $75K and then did all those things it would be legal to sell for $150K. BUT, if they did not buy the horse they are entitled to recover a fair amount for their time and expenses and then only 10%.

The gray line is whether or not you agreed that it was their horse for which you simply had not gotten a check or if it was your horse the whole time. For example if it had died was it your dead horse or their dead horse?

_Battle Scarred Veteran_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it would still be my horse, but with the trainer on a consignment basis. If this is so illegal how come law enforcement doesn't step in? Fraud doesn't necessarily need a complaintant. What law is written that says they only get 10% plus expenses? And, by that same token, if the trainer says, he can't sell the horse and you take it back, do you have to pay him for his time and expenses? On a consignment deal, I think not, so he's taken a risk taking the horse on unless he already has a buyer, and if he does, what is to stop him from just buying the horse outright and then selling it again? [except capital] Why is it fraud in one case and not the other? I'm not convinced it is illegal unless lies have been told about what the horse really brought at the sale, then THAT act is possibly fradulent but just may be unethical. Where is this written and how is it written? Law is a funny thing...people believe things are illegal that aren't and aren't illegal that are due to a lack of understanding of the intricacies of the law, and often because someone, not an attorney, told them so. Law is so technical that I know a personal injury lawyer who won't touch estate planning, even of his own, because he knows he doesn't understand the ins and outs of it. I realize we are talking about commercial codes here, but even so, little law is cut and dried, if any. Any attorneys want to take this on? Also aside from the legal issue, I'm still wondering if my 75k horse would have sold at all without the help of the trainer and if I got my 75k should I care about the trainer's part, especially given that the horse may now be showing on a level that I as a breeder may not have the time or money to go to, but will benefit from the horse I bred being there. Anyone?

[This message was edited by Tory Relic on Apr. 08, 2004 at 04:32 PM.]

Snowbird
Apr. 8, 2004, 01:56 PM
Well since most law enforcement thinks of this as an elitist sport they don't really care what we do to each other. There is however case law, precedent that has been set and the Judge ruled that 10% was the common acceptable commission. There have been a few cases where accidentally a seller met the new owner and found out that a $50,000 animal was sold to present owner for $150,000 and the seller sued for fraud, and was granted triple damages.

The difference is if they have brought the horse in for a specific client for whom they were trying to find a horse then the commission limit comes into play.

But, if they have an investment horse it could have appreciated in value due to their expert training and handling. They buy the horse take the risk and it's their's then to sell.

That's the difference when someone is acting as your agent or as the agent of the buyer. It is illegal just like it is illegal to charge too much interest on a balance due or for a loan to someone. Let's say you lend someone $100 and you say OK! but you have to pay me back in 30 days and you have to pay me back $200, that's illegal because the interest rate is illegally high.

Maybe they don't care because no one else will lend them the $100 and they really need that money right now. It's still illegal even though the borrower agrees.

If the person who bought your horse found out what you sold it for, they could bring a criminal complaint against the trainer for fraud. This is why they never want the buyer to know who owned the horse before when they sell it and this will become a problem for all of them once all horses have an ID number.

Battle Scarred Veteran

findeight
Apr. 8, 2004, 03:11 PM
When there is NOTHING in writing, there is NOTHING law enforcement can do...and they sure cannot do anything when an individual is not a party to the transaction and has no knowledge, other then barn gossip.

If you are a party and have been wronged, go see Judge Judy.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

upperco
Apr. 8, 2004, 04:52 PM
I previously asked how an ammie could engage in the horse business by buying and selling horses and was told to READ THE RULES. Well maybe it's ok by some rule,but it doesn't seem EHTICAL to me.It is fine to sell your horse as an ammie and get another,but to actively buy and sell horses seem like a profession to me. Another question-where does it say that 10% and only 10% commission is legal? What about 5% 12% 15% etc?

PineTreeFarm
Apr. 8, 2004, 05:08 PM
Many Amateurs support their Horseshowing by buying young horses, bringing them along and then selling. The difference is they own the horse, they are not the agent for someone else's horse. Here's the rule:

"h) Accepts remuneration, as defined in Art. 808.2.d, for selling horses/ponies, acts as a
paid agent in the sale of horses/ponies or takes horses/ponies on consignment for the
purpose of sale or training other than those owned wholly or in part by him/her or by a
member of his/her family or farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation which he/she or a
member of his/her family controls."

khobstetter
Apr. 8, 2004, 05:22 PM
And we all know that alot of them don't "own" the horses themselves. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

GatoGordo
Apr. 8, 2004, 05:28 PM
This thread has been very enlightening. The only thing I have to add to the fray is that *if* a trainer were to say to Client that Dobbin was worth $15K and then agreed to sell Dobbin and give Client $15K, no more, no less, would that not be a conflict of interest? I imagine that at least in a few of these cases of trainers taking the rest off of the asking price, the trainer was the one in the first place who gave supposedly professional advice to Client, who does not know what a reasonable market price would be for Dobbin (i.e., low enough to get bites). Thus, the plot thickens....

"Never argue with a TD who wants to play a lawyer in their spare time." -- GotSpots
Eventing Yahoo In Training http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

upperco
Apr. 8, 2004, 05:35 PM
knobsetter who doesn't own what?

Carol Ames
Apr. 8, 2004, 05:42 PM
Does anyone know of a BMT orLNT who would put such an agreement in writing?

breeder of Mercury!

remember to enjoy the moment, and take a momento enjoy!, and give thanks for thesewonderful horses in our lives.

xegeba
Apr. 8, 2004, 06:11 PM
upperco, ammies are ammies when they ride, it has nothing to do with the buying and selling of horses. Trainers can charge whatever commission they want...lots in CA charge 15%. I don't know of any trainer in Ca.that covers the cost of the horse while it is waiting to be sold. Client pays board,training ,vet and shoeing. The sale barns do the same. There is no risk for the trainer. Here is another scenario that I think is grossly unfair . Client has horse that trainer would like to see move on. Trainer decides that for whatever reason, horse would be better off going to sale barn.Client pays sale barn all monthly costs.Sale barn sells horse(for how much, who really know)wants the 10% commission and the trainer that sent the horse away also wants a commission. FOR WHAT????

Tory Relic
Apr. 8, 2004, 06:31 PM
Am I correct when I believe that case law sets precedents that make it easier to argue points of law, but it takes a MASSIVE amount of case law for something to be generally accepted? It doesn't follow that just because a judgement is passed in a certain case that a trainer somehow misrepresented someone that it's now illegal in every case? IE, if I agree to give a trainer 15%, it's legal. The example given about loans is fallacious in that loans are dealt with by a whole different code than a client/agent agreement. Things that are "generally accepted" aren't a hard and fast rule. I've been paid above the "going rate" for non-horse work because I was good at what I did. Does that make it illegal? No.

xegreba, at the time the trainer decides the horse should go to the sale barn, can't the client take him back? I don't see why a person should just sit by and let the trainer do whatever they wish. Of course, I don't board horses with trainers, I have my own property, and I could easily pick up a horse and take it away from a trainer. I certainly would not sign a contract telling said trainer they could take the horse to a sale barn if they wanted to do so. Are these trainers doing this without the knowledge of the owners?

Linny
Apr. 8, 2004, 06:35 PM
Upperco, the ammy rules do not prohibit ammies from profitting on their own horses. If you bought a CANTER horse for $1k and made him up into a top A circuit hunter you would be entitled to sell him for $80k (or whatever) two years later. You would not risk your ammy status.
If you took a commission on the sale of someone else's horse THEN you are a pro. If you ride other people's horses for money, you are a pro.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

khobstetter
Apr. 8, 2004, 06:55 PM
upperco....there are amateurs here on the West Coast who "own" the horses they have for sale...NOT!!!!!

xegeba.....not true with all the arrangements here in CA....we do alot of different arrangements with clients who have horses here with us for sale...there is a variety of different ways we do things...

We DO pay for alot of the costs on some of the horses and we expect 15% (and occasionally 20%)on that sale...see my post above...owners of horses for sale here have a CHOICE which pay sale program they are on.

It's THEIR choice, and we function accordingly. Drop by and visit sometime..the coffee pot is ALWAYS on!!! WE LOVE VISITORS....

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

xegeba
Apr. 8, 2004, 06:57 PM
Tory, the majority of clients that this sort of thing happens to are typically speaking, newbies to the sport. They start riding ,buy a horse from Trainer A, decide to move to trainer B, who after a short period of time decides that horse is a piece of poop. Newbie goes with the flow, and keeps going and going...Newbie just thinks this is the way it is done!

OLD A/O
Apr. 8, 2004, 06:58 PM
I am an A/O rider that buys project horses to work with and have fun with . However, the end goal is to make a profit on all of them. I usually have between four to eight horses. Yes, I show but not as much as I used to. I just do not seem to like the lifestyle of the "Rich and Famous Gypsies" anymore.

I do not want to teach lessons or board stalls. All I want to do is train horses that are really well schooled andto try to reach each horse's best ability. I still love going to the shows when I feel like it and still blow it at the really big ones. However, everyhorse I buy I do truly hope to sell at a profit.

I do have a full time other job so I still think of myself as a true A/O.

Edited: to say I am a farmer full time so I have a lot of months off that I can be a full time rider.

Tory Relic
Apr. 8, 2004, 07:03 PM
Thanks, xegreba.

xegeba
Apr. 8, 2004, 07:05 PM
My pleasure...Curious about any other under-handed tactics that go on?

wtywmn4
Apr. 8, 2004, 07:28 PM
You should have asked Tory if she wanted the book on underhand tactics xebega. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

So now that we know there are ammies who show in this division, ahem, not owning said equine..How do you go about proving this?

Plus when you are talking about commissions, don't forget about the phone calls or finders fees for 1% of the price. Lord forbid any person should be left out in this money groveling scheme..

xegeba
Apr. 8, 2004, 07:48 PM
wtywmn4... the finders fee is only 1%!I thought that was another ten!

xegeba
Apr. 8, 2004, 07:53 PM
wtywmn4...should we even mention that some vets are in cahoots with some trainers? We can't leave out their commissions...

Lord Helpus
Apr. 8, 2004, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
wtywmn4... the finders fee is only 1%!I thought that was another ten!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, xegeba, lets not exaggerate. I have never paida penny more than 8% commission to a middleman for making a phone call when he hears about a horse that might interest my trainer.

Let's see -- in the case in which I was the original patsy (having had "sucker" needlepointed onto my forehead), that came to $4900 for a phone call. Damn -- good work when you can get it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I now operate on the premise of: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RugBug
Apr. 8, 2004, 08:53 PM
Never having sold a horse and only having just bought my first, here are my amateur-ish thoughts:

Don't people send horses to BNT trainers because said trainer can get more money for the horse? Is it the trainer's responsibility to put a fair markt price on the horse (fair price in their market as that is where they are marketing)? If a $50k horse that I'm marketing at a fair price in my market is worth $100k in the BNT's market isn't it completely unethical for the BNT to tell the owner that the horse is only worth $50k but then sell it for $100k? For everyone that says the trainer is being compensated for their contacts/experience, etc...isn't that what the profit increase from $5k to $10k is?

This whole thread really makes me sad for those not in the know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

xegeba
Apr. 8, 2004, 09:09 PM
Lord Helpus...Don't you think there should be a legal limit on how many middlemen there can be? I think it should cap out at say,four. RugBug...This is not limited to the BNT club.It is relative according to where you are in the food chain, the dollar amount just gets bigger the farther up the chain you move. Hopefully this thread will give a heads up to those that are new to this game.

Tory Relic
Apr. 9, 2004, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
My pleasure...Curious about any other under-handed tactics that go on?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tory Relic always wants to know the dirt. Then she can make informed decisions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tory Relic
Apr. 9, 2004, 07:31 AM
Ooops. Sorry Xegeba. I've been putting an "r" after the "g" in your name. Interesting name -- horse's name or some greek or latin word? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wtywmn4
Apr. 9, 2004, 07:39 AM
Tory you are gettin full blown here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Here's one for you all. Since it happened over 20 yrs ago. Think I can put it out there. No names of course..Horse for sale, goes to BNT cause they can market this one, and get the $$$'s for it. People are piddling around, find horse is at show, 50 miles from home, and showing. Say hey, thats not what he went there for. All of a sudden, horse is sold. Yeah right, uh huh. Ask for $$$'s. Get a phone call from another BNT who says they put the sale together, and are owed $$'s. Call BNT and tell them you pay X. They say no. Thats your job. X calls again, says you don't pay me, you will never win in the ring again. ???? what? So X gets paid, BNT gets paid and seller gets whats left. Now that my friends, pure and simple is blackmail. Unfortunately, without docs to support who gets what, you are stuck.

Tory Relic
Apr. 9, 2004, 08:05 AM
Pretty bad, wtywmn4. The lesson I am learning here is to always have a contract. Trainer doesn't do contracts? Trainer doesn't sell my horse. There have to be some out there who will.

Mel0309
Apr. 9, 2004, 08:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
Hey, does USEF even HAVE a vision (that's "vision" not "mission") statement? What about those proposed associations, NHJA and NHJCA (or whatever the letters are)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This came from the bottom the weekly update email from USEF...

VISION STATEMENT

The vision of U.S. Equestrian is to provide leadership for equestrian sport in the United States of America, promoting the pursuit of excellence from the grass roots to the Olympic Games, based on a foundation of fair, safe competition and the welfare of its horses, and embracing this vision, to be the best national equestrian federation in the world.

See my photo album @ http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/mel030981

wtywmn4
Apr. 10, 2004, 07:24 AM
Tory it would be nice to have contracts. But few and far between will ever sign them. The vast majority don't. Its kinda like a used car lot dealer. Those that are able, stay in business. The others, are gone after just a few deals. The best you can do as owner, is have a good business relationship with your trainer. Hopefully eliminating many problems when selling. Be up front about a sale. Tell them, this is what I want. Explain why you don't want to hear about commissions being stacked. In other words, with your honesty, it may enlist theirs.

Lord Helpus
Apr. 10, 2004, 12:38 PM
Oh, Oh, wtywmn -- As long as we are playing "Greatest sales scams from the past" I have a nomination:

Seller sends nice horse from NY to California agent to get it sold (query -- if horse is so nice, why does it have to travel 3000 miles to find a new owner?)

My friend buys said horse for her daughter to ride in the junior division. Friend pays her trainer a generous comission and pays a large price for the horse.

Approx, 1 month later, seller calls my friend's trainer to ask if the horse is in his barn. Trainer says "Yes, Mrs. X bought him."

Seller says that he has not gotten paid for the horse and is repossessing him.

Seller and my friend's trainer both start calling agent. Agent is no where to be found. He seems to have taken the money and disappeared.

So, horse goes back to seller, my friend now has no horse and no money to buy another horse.

A sad situation you say? Yes, but the really sad part is that my friend's trainer says that he did his part by finding a horse for my friend, so he has earned his commission. (Besides that, he has already spent the money on another horse)...

So my friend is out the purchase price PLUS the commission to her own trainer.

My fried gets disillusioned (oh really?) with the show world, and has no more money to buy daughter a fancy horse, so the family moves to a local barn (no trainer) and takes up foxhunting -- mom on her horse and daughter on the 3' horse she was trying to replace with a 3'6" horse.

My friend did sue agent, and got a judgment. But agent is judgment proof, so my friend is out a LOT of money.

If anyone wants to email me and give me the initials of the people that they think are involved -- I will confirm or deny. But I will not give out the names to people who do not know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lord Helpus
Apr. 10, 2004, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mel0309:
VISION STATEMENT

The vision of U.S. Equestrian is to provide leadership for equestrian sport in the United States of America, promoting the pursuit of excellence from the grass roots to the Olympic Games, based on a foundation of fair, safe competition and the welfare of its horses, and embracing this vision, to be the best national equestrian federation in the world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yea. My Vision Statement is: to provide leadership for clean barn habits in the United States of America, promoting the pursuit of excellence from new grooms to top show grooms, based on a foundation of fair, safe stall cleaning and the welfare of my horses, and embracing this vision, to have the cleanest darn barn in the world.

Now that is a run on sentence of which any attorney worth his salt should be proud!

Noun:
vision

Verb:
is


Everything else, as far as I can tell, is either an infinitive, a prepositional phrase or an adverb. But I am NOT a world class grammarian, my vision statement re: support for educated punctuation notwithstanding. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

God I love Vision Statments. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

wtywmn4
Apr. 10, 2004, 05:59 PM
LH, thats awful. And I will bet you they are probably friends with the one I was speaking about. And we wonder why people don't want to have anything to do with show hunters. At least, they didn't give up riding all together. Your friend is nice, I would have had to see if my tires spun well on flesh. Trainer needed a good thrashing as well (word used in lew of something more obscene) We rattle that can long enough, the stories are out there. Each one gets worse than the last. Am sitting here shaking my head. It depresses me that this continues to happen.

Maybe a legal eagle could explain why states don't crack down on this. And yes, know all about the free enterprise theory. At least used car saleman can be held accountable. Doesn't mean you will get your money back, but you have some recourse.

[This message was edited by wtywmn4 on Apr. 10, 2004 at 09:07 PM.]

Lord Helpus
Apr. 10, 2004, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wtywmn4:
Maybe a legal eagle could explain why states don't crack down on this. And yes, know all about the free enterprise theory. At least used car saleman can be held accountable. Doesn't mean you will get your money back, but you have some recourse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Explanation: There are two main bodies of law: Criminal Law and Civil Law.

Criminal law covers crimes (well, DUH!) for which the penalty is incarceration, (or probation). The state (or Federal Government) is the Plaintiff in any criminal case --- the title of criminal cases which you see are: The People of the State of ___ v. Mr. John Smith. Criminal law covers crimes like murder, burglary, larceny etc. Sometimes the State will try some one for murder in criminal court and the survivors of the victim will sue the same defendant in civil court, asking for an award of monetary damages. (OJ Simpson is an example of this.) A defendant can be found not guilty in criminal court because the level of proof is very high ("Beyond a reasonable doubt" -- 95%) while the level of proof in civil court is lower ("by a preponderance of the evidence -- 51%). This is one major reason that OJ was found not guilty in the criminal case and was found liable in the civil case. I will not get into gloves "that do not fit" in this post. It might be considered a tad OT. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The civil code contains the laws of each state which regulate how people deal with each other. Civil cases are those for which money (or a return of goods) will make the Plaintiff whole. Titles of civil cases are John Smith v. Jane Doe. The state is not involved in civil cases -- just the party who has been wronged suing the people they think wronged them.

So, the answer to your question, "Why don't states crack down on this?" is because these are not criminal matters. Fraud, breach of contract, breach of fiduciary duty, etc. are all civil matters, directly between people.

It is not up to the state to tell party B that they have to be nice to party A. It is up to Party A to sue party B, saying "you haven't been nice to me, now I want you to pay me for your meanness".

If we want abuses in the area of buying and selling horses to stop, then we must clean our own house by 1. Entering into agreements (they can be oral, but written agreements are much easier to prove in court) which set out the expectations and desires of each party that the other party agrees to AND 2. taking the party who has not lived up to his end of the agreement to court to get a judgment against him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Apr. 11, 2004 at 08:13 AM.]

Midge
Apr. 11, 2004, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
er....
I've sat on LHUs 100 year old porch in the June dusk with a nice glass of wine, looking at the bazillion dollar "horse resorts" of her neighbors in Lexington and that ain't no flea market by ANY definition.

And she does have nice horses..whatever problems she has marketing and selling, quality and performance are not the issue.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooh! Ooh!
Does this mean LHU will be having a little COTH get together during the August Kentuckys?? Please say yes and please make it on Monday! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*****
Still trying to find the answers to life's persistent questions.

wtywmn4
Apr. 11, 2004, 08:29 AM
Thanks LH, am really impressed with your knowledge. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Guess as most of us know, getting them to sign contracts is like pulling hair. Not fun. Verbals are only good for $5000 these days?

Ahhhh, sitting on a front porch in the KY twilight...Now that could be considered heaven.

Lord Helpus
Apr. 11, 2004, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wtywmn4:
Thanks LH, am really impressed with your knowledge. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Guess as most of us know, getting them to sign contracts is like pulling hair. Not fun. Verbals are only good for $5000 these days?

Ahhhh, sitting on a front porch in the KY twilight...Now that could be considered heaven.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's what I spent 3 years and $60,000 learning. And since I stopped practicing law, its not often I get to dig deep into the cobwebs of my brain and pull out things I learned in 1983.

As I recall, an oral contract (v. a written contract) does not have a dollar amount attached to it, except for the sale of real property -- contracts to sell real property MUST be in writing.

Could you be thinking of Small Claims Court v. Municipal Court?

And, yes, looking out over fields of gorgeous green grass with mares and foals cavorting (great word, eh? Beats saying that they are snoozing and eating and pooping) is my idea of heaven. Now if I could just figure out a way to move the ocean within 50 miles, I would never have to leave Ky.

-- Oh, BTW, those fields of gorgeous grass w/ mares and foals are on the neighbor's farm. My fields contain my small herd of horses who I cannot seem to sell. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And, yes, Midge --- I would be willing to host a gathering between shows at KHP in August. As we get closer to that date, let's get a list of potential attendees, so that I can buy sufficient goodies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Riggs
Apr. 11, 2004, 06:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:

-- Oh, BTW, those fields of gorgeous grass w/ mares and foals are on the neighbor's farm. My fields contain my small herd of horses who I cannot seem to sell. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOVE IT! What a great summary to this thread.

Bumpkin
Jun. 13, 2004, 09:35 AM
This thread seems appropriate to bring back up for re reading....http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

pwynnnorman
Jun. 13, 2004, 09:51 AM
Why????

findeight
Jun. 13, 2004, 06:32 PM
Why not?

Lots of newbies on here that need to learn the ins and outs of selecting horses and their agents/trainers...and the pitfalls of the less ethical blockheads who hang out a sign to proclaim themselves "professionals" some should trust with their money to find suitable mounts and be able to train them and coach the riders.

No, this ought to be bumped out for all to read/review and LEARN what to look for, and avoid from the nasty underbelly of our sport.

pwynnnorman
Jun. 14, 2004, 05:41 AM
Well, since this thread did come up again, I would like to correct something. I'd wondered, on page 8 or something, if USEF actually had a VISION statement and this is what someone found:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This came from the bottom the weekly update email from USEF...

VISION STATEMENT

The vision of U.S. Equestrian is to provide leadership for equestrian sport in the United States of America, promoting the pursuit of excellence from the grass roots to the Olympic Games, based on a foundation of fair, safe competition and the welfare of its horses, and embracing this vision, to be the best national equestrian federation in the world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a mission statement, not a vision statement. A vision statement describes NOT what the entity is going to DO, but what it hopes to SEE occur as the result of its efforts.

So, for example, one vision of the sport might be to see people learn about and appreciate competition such that they PROGRESS up the levels of the sport--transforming the grassroots exhibitor into the AAA competitor for instance; or the A/A into the A/O.

I'm not saying that's a vision I'd think necessary. It's just an example. Maybe a better one would be: "Recognition and respect as a national tradition and challenging sport," a vision which would mandate better (more honest, more professional, more whatever...) practices among trainers and perhaps classes and prizes at shows that actually make sense to outsiders.

Mel0309
Jun. 14, 2004, 10:48 AM
Pwynnnorman- I am the one who posted the "vision statement" from USEF.

It may not be your idea of a vision statement but that is what they put at the end of every email update they send.

If you think they should come up with a better one maybe you should write a letter or bring it up in the next national meeting.

Snowbird
Jun. 14, 2004, 11:21 AM
Well I don't know what you call it but the most overlooked truism in the Rule Book is on page 5 this year it has been in every published Rule Book for as long as I can remember, "The Sportsman's Charter".
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
one quote is:
<span class="ev_code_green">
That sport is something done for the fun of doing it and that it ceases to be sport when it becomes a business only, something done for what there is in it</span>
<span class="ev_code_blue">
That the exploitation of sport for profit alone kills the spirit and retains only the husk and semblance of the thing.</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Old School
Jun. 14, 2004, 03:27 PM
We have a lot of husk. Maybe the sport needs a new rule book, since that one isn't being followed.

Snowbird
Jun. 14, 2004, 03:47 PM
For sure we are in need of a major reformation of the rules and a lot of attitude adjustment.

pwynnnorman
Jun. 14, 2004, 07:00 PM
Mel0309, excuse my pickiness, but there's a reason why organizations need to take theri vision as seriously as their mission (and I teach public relations, so I really do know what a vision statement is supposed to be--the person who wrote that one probably didn't).

Snowbird
Jun. 14, 2004, 07:17 PM
Remember our motto: The Right to know and the Right to Vote?

Well P.Wynn I need to say this after 5 years of reading and going to meetings and listening to the same complaints, year after year that the solution is a democratic association where we can express our opinions, take polls and be properly represented by people of our choice.

The simple fact is that what hasn't changed is that 98% of the members who are paying the bills are still the silent majority. They have no vote; no right to be heard and no right to know what is going on. If the USHJA is the affiliate the silent majority will have one seat on the board for 28,000 members. But, a third of the Board for the unrecognized shows.

I'm sorry but I worked too hard and too long for a fair playing field to just roll over and accept a dictatorship from the top. We as members have to stop this spiral into oblivion.

It's taken years to convince people that a recognized show was better because of the rules. It's taken years for them to screw it so that no one seriously believes that the rules are equally enforced.

I've put my money my time and my energy where my mouth is and made sure that the NHJA had the best possible organization to give everyone a fair and equal chance to be heard. AND...it won't cost us a dime extra to belong to NHJA. Every member is automatically a member and a share of the discipline fee will pay your bills in the association for the membership.

Each Zone gets a member of the Board! Each Zone gets to pick the majority of members on the Standing Committees. Not just the Chairman of the Zone but a separate elected delegate that we feel we can trust to represent us "LITTLE PEOPLE".

pwynnnorman
Jun. 15, 2004, 06:18 AM
Y'know what I want (this morning in my frustration and rage over the pony measurement issues that are currently being discussed here)?

I want an organization that is willing to address the BIG PICTURE, once and for all.

It's no one's fault that this industry has been "created" in a hodge-podge way. That's probably part of he history of many industries...until someone(s) step in and say STOP, this makes NO SENSE and is HURTING the majority of us while only benefiting a few.

I read those by-law proposals thoroughly, every single word in them...and I did see the possibility that NHJA is willing to try--it clearly has a "vision" for the sport--while USHJA is totally ignoring most of what folks like you have been bringing up at every opportunity.

BUT I don't see one, single "leader" other than yourself stepping forward to indicate "I'm for this"--not even those with the NHJA. Not one. Are you the only one out there with any friggin' COURAGE? And what about that 98%? Where are THEY (besides here, griping)?

Sometimes, this BB is disgraceful in what it will and won't care about. Just disgraceful.

Flash44
Jun. 15, 2004, 07:19 AM
I may not be part of the solution, but I did vote, with my feet.

Snowbird
Jun. 15, 2004, 09:28 AM
Well Wynn I realized this week that it's a generation thing. The younger folks seem so intimidated by what others think they're afraid to voice and have an opinion. They're waiting for Mommie and Daddy to fix it all for them.

When George Bush the Dad #41 did his skydive he said that it was important for even seniors to do something even if it was "anything" it was better than doing nothing. And when he landed safely there was waiting for him a bottle of Russian Vodka and a bouquet of flowers from Gorbechev.

Now, I understand why my WWII generation was so remarkable. Our leaders had a vision and I hope that somehow I can find the words and ways to wake up the yuppies and the millenniums to realize there is more to be being alive than money, security and being popular.