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View Full Version : OK eagle eyes this one is interesting.....



spirithorse
Mar. 7, 2011, 05:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAMF6NMpZ4o

We have bantered back and forth regarding our individual observations and judges observations.

Tell me what you can see, if you actually catch it.

Times are approximate: 21 visual counts
:25 - 1:16 - 1:29 - 2:56 - 3:39 - 3:43 - 4:00 - 5:20 pirouette - 5:48 - 5:54 - 6:04 - 6:11 pirouette - 7:42 - 8:13 piaffe - 9:03 - 9:06 - 9:36 - 9:41 - 9:45 - 11:29 - 11:31 - 11:37 - 13:10

arabiansrock
Mar. 7, 2011, 05:56 PM
He's wearing a helmet.

And the horse seems to stay longer on his right hind in the passage than the left.

Piaffe11
Mar. 7, 2011, 06:10 PM
...the horse seems to stay longer on his right hind in the passage than the left.

I noticed this as well... :yes:

sophie
Mar. 7, 2011, 06:12 PM
pffff all I can say is, I wish I could speak Dutch, lol.
All I got was "pirouette".

Beautiful horse.

dogponyshow
Mar. 7, 2011, 06:30 PM
He does that toe tap with his right hind in passage.

spirithorse
Mar. 7, 2011, 09:37 PM
Interesting.
One visual has been spotted, however, there are a lot more.

Technically, the horse is lame. There is a muscle problem. The rider does not even feel the occurances.

NorCalDressage
Mar. 7, 2011, 10:23 PM
Interesting.
One visual has been spotted, however, there are a lot more.

Technically, the horse is lame. There is a muscle problem. The rider does not even feel the occurances.

Reallllyyy?

I'm curious how you have diagnosed it a muscle problem? What kind of muscle problem do you suppose?

So, do you speak dutch? I don't, so I have no idea if the rider is talking about the uneveness in the passage or not. Maybe someone else here can tell us what he's mentioning & discussing with the audience.

I see a horse that gets uneven behind in the passage. Not super concerning to me, as it seems he looks a bit green to that level of work. He is snappier with the right hind, slower & less flexing with the left. At the walk, he tracks evenly and when allowed to go more forward in the trot (and not so much carrying behind) he is even. I do not see any glaring one-sidedness in the canter.

No way to tell for sure, but from that short video, I would conclude that he has one hind leg stronger than the other at this point in his training. Of course this IS the only time in the world, a horse has had this condition, isn't it?

spirithorse
Mar. 7, 2011, 10:34 PM
Reallllyyy? I'm curious how you have diagnosed it a muscle problem? What kind of muscle problem do you suppose?

If you 'closely' observe you will see far more than you have. In fact, I was able to see 21 different visuals showing that a problem exists, even logged the times.

Yes, it is a muscle problem because it is inconsistent. As for the muscle structure affected, only palpation could reveal it.

alg0181
Mar. 7, 2011, 10:45 PM
spirithorse, you should charge for those long-distance diagnoses. It's amazing, really.

spirithorse
Mar. 7, 2011, 10:47 PM
It is not a diagnoses, it is an observation. If you cannot see the visuals, well, it just demonstrates what is lacking in education of riders.

fatwhitepony
Mar. 7, 2011, 10:50 PM
I find it amazing to think that a rider of this level would not feel the issue. I have a horse that is a 3 years rehabbed former Amish buggy horse, with a known issue in his right hind...appears very similar to what you see here. Yes, I feel it. And I don't compete at international level either. The horse is sound, but not flawless. Dressage works with the horse's natural imperfections, to bring them as close to perfection as we can through proper training and fitness. Some get to be 99.9% perfect and some will only be 89% perfect when it is all said and done.

Quibbler
Mar. 7, 2011, 10:52 PM
Hey spirithorse, how about you post a video of you doing Dressage and show us all lesser beings a proper horse?

As CotH has proven many times, anyone can talk the talk...

fatwhitepony
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:00 PM
What I find most interesting is the half pass left into canter transition, where the horse taps the ground with his right front first, then takes the first canter stride. It's almost as if he starts to canter on the third beat of the stride, but not really as he doesn't seem to put full weight on it in that moment. Maybe just a blip, or perhaps a habit or reaction of the horse in that particular transition. And sometimes sh&t just happens!

4xhoof
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:03 PM
Hey spirithorse, how about you post a video of you doing Dressage and show us all lesser beings a proper horse?

As CotH has proven many times, anyone can talk the talk...

Highly unlikely that will happen. OP posts videos of other riders/horses to comment on what he finds disagreeable yet does not seem to want to post videos of self

hntrjmprpro45
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:11 PM
What do I see?
Yes I see an unbalance- most likely a weakness or possibly soreness. I saw it trip up a few times, have a few awkward transitions, mess up a few times with it's changes, etc. And no I did not count exactly how many "signs" there were and exactly when they occur in the video.

But more importantly, I saw a promising young stallion who will probably clean up beautifully especially under the talent of Edward Gal. Since this was a clinic video, this horse was likely selected to show these issues although since I don't know dutch I can't say for sure.

cu.at.x
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:26 PM
I find it amazing to think that a rider of this level would not feel the issue.

Who said he doesn't feel it?

fatwhitepony
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:29 PM
SH said so himself (edited to say he says so in post #6)! I wondered how he knew the rider did not feel it.

LarkspurCO
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:32 PM
Edward Gal most certainly feels every minute imbalance and misstep and is keenly aware of the tiniest of flaws.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:45 PM
I think a chain on Voice's leg would fix the unevenness in the P & P.

Yeah, that's it. A chain.

fatwhitepony
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:48 PM
Don't forget the rubber tubing!

Hell, that's how I get my hackney and Lipizzaners to trot the way they do :lol: (Um, yeah, just kidding guys)

alg0181
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:58 PM
No, no no. You are all wrong. Gal just needs to trot Voice over lots of cavaletti.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:59 PM
With a racing martingale. Bwahahahahahaha!

spirithorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:21 AM
Certain individuals make the point that they are not willing to be observant and thats ok.

The observation is of a wonderful horse who is having an issue. He is a most elegant mover.
The horse takes 21 missteps with the right rear. In pirouette he does not want to correctly weight the right leg. These are representative of a muscle issue in leg. The missteps do not occur when he is moving forward but rather only in passage, etc...............

As for the rider feeling it. Not all riders are that aware....it does not make him a bad person, just not aware of the missteps.

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:31 AM
I definitely observed the missteps. I simply think it is a training issue and not lameness. I ride a mare who, when she is worked up (like at a show) forgets how to canter on her right lead. It takes a few minutes of schooling to remind her. It is not a physical issue.

Anyways I really would like to see a video of you riding. Because you seem to have a lot to share. Why is it that we only get to see that photo of the cavaletti?

I am not a great rider and don't pretend that I can criticize international superstars, but I'd happily take a video of myself and post it if you do.

fatwhitepony
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:01 AM
Many mis-steps for sure! I did not really have time to watch the video to it's entirety, and my connection is acting wonky lately so sometimes the youtube videos are not loading properly so I lose patience as I am here and multi-tasking at the same time...which is why I quit watching this video part way through.

Anyhow, I would offer to share video of myself riding as well (I know you were asking SH for video, but still). Instead I am actually too darn busy to go through the process of borrowing some one's time to catch the footage on a horse I have more advanced currently, then upload it to share. The precious few rides I manage to get on tape and loaded are short and non representative of what I do as they are mostly 'catch rides' on my own just green broke youngsters that are primarily for sale. Yes, they are my own horses, but I generally have working students on them most of the time. I end up on them on the days when the student cannot be here but I have to get the sales video done! Holy run on thought bat man! (sorry, I'm up late tonight thanks to insomnia so pardon my rambling)

Anywho, all I really wanted to say is that I also tend to agree that this is perhaps a weakness, or training issue that evolved. Perhaps Gal got this horse in for training after he had significant work already put into him.

I'm curious why SH you think he does not feel the hitches in stride? I do not speak or understand Dutch so is there something said in the video that I am not aware of?

LarkspurCO
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:03 AM
As for the rider feeling it. Not all riders are that aware....it does not make him a bad person, just not aware of the missteps.

But the top riders in the world do. That's why they are the best. Gal didn't get where he is by being insensitive.

Not to mention the guy can ride at that level all the while talking through each movement and not even out of breath. The man is freakishly talented.

Now, here's your homework. Go and watch and LISTEN (it's in English).

http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode/edward-gal-masterclass

fatwhitepony
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:14 AM
As for my eye...I love to have these discussions! I find it good to compare notes not for snark sake, but rather for education and practice. I teach a ton of lessons and train horses for a living so for me it IS a practical thing to do. And it is always good to converse with peers and whoever else, so long as it does not degrade to a name calling game.

Just to give you an idea of my eye- a year or two back at the Smilies
Saratoga Dressage show I spotted a Friesian that was at the competition to compete upper level. I had never before seen the horse under saddle at all, but some one made me aware of what he was about to do. While mid conversation with some one I saw in the corner of my eye that the horse was short in the walk (no rider up)on his right hind. Not lame, just tight and short. So after their warm up we watched his test and sure enough. Trouble in the pirouettes to the right, several changes left lead to right were late behind or the horse snatched up his right hind high enough to slap it down into the ground, and the piaffe showed weakness in the right hind. I don't recall the passage. No surprises there based on just glancing at him being led around the show grounds. Otherwise a good ride was had. But that was what the rider had to contend with based on the horse's weaknesses/issues. Notice I am NOT saying the rider created these problems. I truly think it is the horse's issues that are a work in progress...at least I hope they are.

oldbag
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:08 AM
It's very obvious that you have never trained horses to passage Spirithorse. Otherwise you would be well aware that many horses become irregular in this pace when first learning. This can take years to erradicate btw., but the horses have no soundness problems.

MoSwanson
Mar. 8, 2011, 06:45 AM
Edward has only been riding this stallion for six months, and he had been trained by some one else before this.
Horses often start out uneven in pa/pi when first schooling it.
Edward rides not just the movement, he rides the movement with brilliance. This horse has the movements- the brilliance he is being asked for will take some more time for development, especially regarding even muscle development for both left and right hind legs.

sabriel
Mar. 8, 2011, 06:53 AM
Edward has only been riding this stallion for six months, and he had been trained by some one else before this.
Horses often start out uneven in pa/pi when first schooling it.
Edward rides not just the movement, he rides the movement with brilliance. This horse has the movements- the brilliance he is being asked for will take some more time for development, especially regarding even muscle development for both left and right hind legs.

questions from an ammie: Why not ride the p/p with less brilliance in the beginning to help prevent uneven movement? (Not referring to this rider/horse combo since the horse was trained prior to Gal getting the ride.)

alibi_18
Mar. 8, 2011, 07:12 AM
SH quick, give a call to the Moorlands Stable!!! Maybe they don't know their horse is being badly trained while injured with some insensitive rider... I'm sure you would enlighten them and they would praise your concerns.

Don't forget your chain if ever they would offer you to ride!

Frivolous! :D

alterhorse87
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:22 AM
With a racing martingale. Bwahahahahahaha!

Umm how else are you going to get it that hollow and inverted if it doesn't have something to brace against???

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:26 AM
Umm how else are you going to get it that hollow and inverted if it doesn't have something to brace against???

A REAL rider can get a horse that hollow and inverted JUST WITH THEIR SEAT. For $100 you can get my dvd showing you how YOU, TOO, can make your horse's head go up (hello dressage) in just 3 rides.

Mrs.ChickenBritches
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:48 AM
GASP!! A horse that isn't Perfect?! Say it isn't so!!:rolleyes:

NoDQhere
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:53 AM
Anybody who actually works with horses knows that it takes TIME and CONDITIONING for a horse to get "perfect". That horse is NOT lame, what a preposterous statement!

I think it is wonderful that Edward puts himself out there and shares his training secrets with the rest of us. He is incredible and so are his horses.

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:54 AM
Poor Edward. He gets armchair QB'd from W/T and Training Level riders.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:06 AM
SH, the time you waste trying to rip on world-class riders would be better spent taking riding lessons.

Pathetic.

CFFarm
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECTd4iHblgM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAMF6NMpZ4o

If you compare these two videos, Voice does seem to almost "paddle" out more on the left hind but whether it's enthusiasm, soreness or his way of going evolving is awfully hard to say from a video. I for one, wouldn't even think of second guessing Edward Gal.

Equibrit
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:29 AM
Hasn't anyone spotted what is wrong with "spirithorse" yet ?

Halt At X
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:40 AM
Hasn't anyone spotted what is wrong with "spirithorse" yet ?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Timex
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:42 AM
seriously guys, you jump all over spirithorse, but you're hardly helping your own cause. feel free to disagree, but can you do it like a grown-up? sheesh. :rolleyes:


Certain individuals make the point that they are not willing to be observant and thats ok.

The observation is of a wonderful horse who is having an issue. He is a most elegant mover.
The horse takes 21 missteps with the right rear. In pirouette he does not want to correctly weight the right leg. These are representative of a muscle issue in leg. The missteps do not occur when he is moving forward but rather only in passage, etc...............

As for the rider feeling it. Not all riders are that aware....it does not make him a bad person, just not aware of the missteps.


that being said, i would wonder, SH, how you can TELL that it is a muscle issue, and issue a diagnosis, based off just this video? and making the assumption that the rider can't feel it? how do you KNOW this, so definitively? i would argue that there's just as good of a chance as this being a young, green (-er) horse, learning the movements and being somewhat weak behind, with a rider conscious of that and working towards improving, as there is of this having muscle issues and a rider that doesn't feel the missteps.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:44 AM
It would be easier and faster to list what's right about him...

:lol::lol::lol:

Equibrit
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:50 AM
seriously guys, you jump all over spirithorse, but you're hardly helping your own cause. feel free to disagree, but can you do it like a grown-up? sheesh. :rolleyes:


First, ask yourselves why SH posts these "special" insights. By doing so he makes himself as vulnerable to this crap as Mr Gal seems to be, and therefore (by his own standards) fair game. We do know however, that Mr Gal enjoys much success at the TOP of the sport.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:54 AM
Especially since he's all hat and no cattle...

Timex
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:55 AM
First, ask yourselves why SH posts these "special" insights. By doing so he makes himself as vulnerable to this crap as Mr Gal seems to be, and therefore (by his own standards) fair game.

i'm not talking about disagreeing with him, equibrit, it's the catty, childish, petty BS from some people that is just uncalled for and unnecessary. so, if you want to lower yourself to that level, be my guest. *shrug* i would just hope that 'adults' and 'professionals' would be able to resist the urge. :no:

Equibrit
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:59 AM
i'm not talking about disagreeing with him, equibrit, it's the catty, childish, petty BS from some people that is just uncalled for and unnecessary. so, if you want to lower yourself to that level, be my guest. *shrug* i would just hope that 'adults' and 'professionals' would be able to resist the urge. :no:

I have a feeling that folks on this board would be as catty, childish, and petty as they need to be, to make SH disappear. How much b-----hit and ignorance does a person have to put up with ?

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:59 AM
i'm not talking about disagreeing with him, equibrit, it's the catty, childish, petty BS from some people that is just uncalled for and unnecessary. so, if you want to lower yourself to that level, be my guest. *shrug* i would just hope that 'adults' and 'professionals' would be able to resist the urge. :no:

Be VERY careful, Timex. The same measuring stick can and will be applied to you at all times out here.

This is a bit of pot calling the kettle black.

To quote your previous pos, "...but can you do it like a grown-up? sheesh. :rolleyes: "

I'm just saying...glass houses break fast and hard--and make a lot of noise when shattered.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:02 AM
I tried disagreeing with him in an adult, respectful way -- even PM'ed him in the past.

However, he's impervious to any ideas but his own, has multiple axes to grind, is litigious & close-minded.

I learn a lot from my fellow COTHers. From SH, I learn what NOT to do.

SprinklerBandit
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:10 AM
I learn a lot from my fellow COTHers. From SH, I learn what NOT to do.

You are closed-minded beyond all belief. From SH, I learned that I just need to put chains on my horse's legs to make her jump clean. It's not my riding! It's just that she isn't in pain yet!

netg
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECTd4iHblgM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAMF6NMpZ4o

If you compare these two videos, Voice does seem to almost "paddle" out more on the left hind but whether it's enthusiasm, soreness or his way of going evolving is awfully hard to say from a video. I for one, wouldn't even think of second guessing Edward Gal.

I love the competition video - in which he did some GP movements and missed some for the level he was supposed to be going.

Theoretically, if this horse isn't showing GP he is "green" - so I wouldn't expect perfection anyway. (As if perfection exists, even for Totilas.) What I find fascinating is that I could see the results of corrections EG made throughout the test - saying "nope, don't stop pushing" and immediate change in how Voice moved. Once again, I can only dream of being able to be so effective in my own riding. Yeah, he's uneven - and it's usually a strength issue, aka usually muscular. Which doesn't mean lameness or even soreness, just a horse who needs work to get even again. There's a reason riders keep working on straightness and don't just forget about it the first time they get it while working on the training scale.

spirithorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:23 PM
seriously guys, you jump all over spirithorse, but you're hardly helping your own cause. feel free to disagree, but can you do it like a grown-up? sheesh. :rolleyes:




that being said, i would wonder, SH, how you can TELL that it is a muscle issue, and issue a diagnosis, based off just this video? and making the assumption that the rider can't feel it? how do you KNOW this, so definitively? i would argue that there's just as good of a chance as this being a young, green (-er) horse, learning the movements and being somewhat weak behind, with a rider conscious of that and working towards improving, as there is of this having muscle issues and a rider that doesn't feel the missteps.

Thank you for your post.

I have been doing physical work on horses for over twenty years and I recognize a muscle injury quite easy.
I have posted a picture on the research page of my website. This image shows a horse who had muscle problems in the right rear. The owner/rider did not know it. I showed him what had caught my eye regarding how the horse was standing off and moving off.
A few minutes of my work and the horse was moving much better.

Oh and by the way, look up Jack Meager. He did trigger point therapy, I expanded upon his concept.

Go Fish
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:46 PM
SH, the time you waste trying to rip on world-class riders would be better spent taking riding lessons.

Pathetic.

I just spit my $5 Starbucks latte all over my keyboard. Thanks alot! :lol:

netg
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:47 PM
I just spit my $5 Starbucks latte all over my keyboard. Thanks alot! :lol:

Yet more proof of the haves vs. have-nots. I had to make my own mocha at home. :mad:


:lol:

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:33 PM
Timex, the others here don't initiate the attitude. While Spirithorse doesn't crack jokes and act overly snarky, he is incredibly condescending and continuously acts as though he has ALLL the answers and we are just closed-minded sheeple. That act gets old after a while. I for one have been astounded by the knowledge of a lot of members here at COTH, and it is simply disrespectful for him to act as though our many, many, many combined years of experience mean nothing and we are idiots.

I try not to be rude, online and in person. But Spirithorse is hardly an innocent victim in threads like these.

alibi_18
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:49 PM
Thank you for your post.

I have been doing physical work on horses for over twenty years and I recognize a muscle injury quite easy.
I have posted a picture on the research page of my website. This image shows a horse who had muscle problems in the right rear. The owner/rider did not know it. I showed him what had caught my eye regarding how the horse was standing off and moving off.
A few minutes of my work and the horse was moving much better.

Oh and by the way, look up Jack Meager. He did trigger point therapy, I expanded upon his concept.

Mr. Meagher must be turning a lot in his grave right now...or having tetanic contraction...

RIP Mr. Meagher.

spirithorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:53 PM
ignorance: lack of knowledge

So many of Coth'ers choose to be so. I have never implied Coth'ers are idiots, nor have I been condescending. I am not superior to anyone, however, I do seek out knowledge rather than stay in the status quo mind set. I have acquired knowledge over that last twenty-two years that is not in line with the status quo and as such I am the maverick. That is ok.

When I answer a post with details, it is ignored and this demonstrates the 'in the box' mind set of so many horse people.

This thread is about Voice and I posted the observations I saw revealed in the video. If you, as an individual, refuse to accept the findings so be it. That demonstrates your unwillingness to the possibility of learning something and that is ignorance at its best.

Condescenders are the individuals that state I do not know what I am talking about until you investigate and participate to see if there is validity to what I say.

The prime example of demonstrating one's ignorance is Alibi_18's newest post.

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:57 PM
^ Way to disprove my post, Spirithorse. :lol:

Anyway this thread should probably die...

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:59 PM
Thread killers unite! :lol:

I think alg ought to put on mud wrestling clothes and take on spirit in the old fashioned COTH way. Mud wrestling while the rest get to sit on their bar stools and watch.

Someone could bring along the frying pan and Aunt Esther's purse, if they can find them. I can't remember who had them last. WTF? Anyone seen the fruitbat?

alibi_18
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:00 PM
Mr. Meagher the famous equine/athlete massage therapist died in 2005...
unless you are referencing another Mr. Meagher?

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obituaries/articles/2005/03/10/jack_meagher_81_masseur_to_famous_athletes_horses/

katarine
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:02 PM
ahh, there it is, a breath of hot air!

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:05 PM
Looks like alibi and katarine have become drunk and joined in the mud pit.

alibi_18
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:10 PM
The prime example of demonstrating one's ignorance is Alibi_18's newest post.

I'm not drunk, I'm the prime example of ignorance. :o

Who is SH's Jack Meagher? Is he really dead or what?

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:16 PM
alibi

You must be at least tipsy. You are missing the point (my finger is right in front of your face and you just keep crossing your eyes). It's time to leave this party and move on to something more entertaining. Thus the derailing and the mud fight. (I can't believe I have to explain this, then again, you usually have to repeat yourself several times to drunks. ;) )

4xhoof
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:18 PM
This thread is about Voice and I posted the observations I saw revealed in the video. If you, as an individual, refuse to accept the findings so be it. That demonstrates your unwillingness to the possibility of learning something and that is ignorance at its best.



And you are welcome to your observations, however; if someone does not agree with your observations, then you state that they are unwilling to learn and are displaying ignorance.

This is the problem - if people do not agree with you, you call them unwilling to learn and guilty of ignorance ( see the quote above - you clearly state this). Thus you never look to have a discussion rather you want everyone to agree with you. When they do not, all of a sudden they are unwilling to learn. Can you not see this?

katarine
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:20 PM
Looks like alibi and katarine have become drunk and joined in the mud pit.

heck ya I was downing cold beers and raw oysters first thing this mornin, wassurpoint?

'erp.

Go Fish
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:23 PM
This thread is about Voice and I posted the observations I saw revealed in the video. If you, as an individual, refuse to accept the findings so be it. That demonstrates your unwillingness to the possibility of learning something and that is ignorance at its best.



See, that's the problem. If one disagrees with you, then they aren't "accepting" your findings. I've got news for you. Your opinion is not the only highway to heaven. I'm always up to learning new things...do it all the time. So far, none of what you blather on about is worth it to me. And, that's my opinion. :D

Twenty years? Heck, you're a newby. I've been at it for over 50. You've got some catching up to do. :lol:

spirithorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:26 PM
And you are welcome to your observations, however; if someone does not agree with your observations, then you state that they are unwilling to learn and are displaying ignorance.

This is the problem - if people do not agree with you, you call them unwilling to learn and guilty of ignorance ( see the quote above - you clearly state this). Thus you never look to have a discussion rather you want everyone to agree with you. When they do not, all of a sudden they are unwilling to learn. Can you not see this?

Whoa! Your statement should be leveled at those who do not discuss but sling the snarky remarks. I have stated that "certain" individuals display ignorance...that does not imply all the members. One displays an unwillingness to learn by such postings rather than engaging in an exchange of information.

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:28 PM
Didn't you guys get the memo? Velvet and I have declared this thread dead already! ;)

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:29 PM
heck ya I was downing cold beers and raw oysters first thing this mornin, wassurpoint?

'erp.

Yeah, well, you made the same mistake I have. (No, not the drinking...that's never a mistake before coming out here. ;) ) You forgot to take off your Pradas!!!! :no:

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:30 PM
Don't mistake your own "maverick" ideas for knowledge, SH. You are a "maverick" the same way Dr. Christmas, designer of the ill-fated "Christmas Bullet" was a maverick.

His ignorance of aerodynamics was fatal for his test pilot.

www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0038.shtml

We are "ignorant" in your eyes because we don't acknowledge your ideas as fact.

You may THINK you don't come across as condescending, but you're wrong!:lol:

You say you are not superior to the rest of us, and by golly, you're right for once! :lol:

There are several posters here who could ride circles around you and teach you something, but I've seen your type. Unteachable, argumentative, rigid.
You're the sort instructors walk (or run) away from. Not worth the effort.

Velvet's right. SH is an attention monger and he's in high cotton right now. Time to leave.

spirithorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:30 PM
Twenty years? Heck, you're a newby. I've been at it for over 50. You've got some catching up to do. :lol:

Naw, been doin since I was real young...just mentioned the past twenty two year...........:winkgrin:

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:30 PM
Didn't you guys get the memo? Velvet and I have declared this thread dead already! ;)

I made no such declarations! I am simply behaving in my normal fashion. :yes: :lol:

Have another drink, alg.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:36 PM
Alg, hand me a beer.

Nojacketrequired
Mar. 8, 2011, 02:44 PM
I hear there's been a new alter-outing on the trainer thread in OC!

NJR covers her head while the masses stampede that way...

NJR










Just kidding, but I thought it might help to bring this one to a close....

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 03:28 PM
BEER? This is the Dressage forum.

Appletinis for everyone.

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 03:29 PM
DAMN you NJR

I have yet to witness a COTH trainwreck in real-time, and you had me all excited!

naturalequus
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:10 PM
seriously guys, you jump all over spirithorse, but you're hardly helping your own cause. feel free to disagree, but can you do it like a grown-up? sheesh. :rolleyes:

Agreed with the above. SH commenced a discussion, and honestly I find such discussions educational. Maybe I'm one of the select few. I greatly appreciate observing such videos and others of like and picking apart a horse's movement. It's nothing personal against neither the horse nor rider, it's a simple observation. Of course SH does have his own bias but don't we all?

So if you don't wish to learn or should you disagree, post accordingly - respectfully. Or, better yet, maybe don't post at all. It's that simple, people. Can't we just pretend for a moment to be adults??

Neither am I of the belief that one must be an UL rider to understand UL movements, biomechanics, etc. An individual may not have the desire, the time, the finances, the horse, the skill - whatever - to attain a high level in a chosen discipline but that does not necessarily detract from their actual knowledge. That said, I do question some of SH's logic but then there are other times I certainly agree. As with anything, I do not feel it fair to take everything one person says for gospel but neither for garbage - some of what a person thinks or says one might agree with, and some of it we might not agree with and might even find downright preposterous.

Lastly, what's with this 'law' of being unable to judge an UL rider's horse or ride??? Does one somehow suddenly become infallible and all-knowing when they attain a certain level? Please, do tell, as I'd like to know which level it is where I may become a God - never to be judged or questioned :lol: Some of those top riders we admire (or don't) do use questionable techniques, methods, or whatnot. They're still great riders on great horses, but they make mistakes too and they might even be doing things a little wrong or following a trend some of us might appreciate and some of us might not, despite success and what the current judging trend says. Not saying whether I think that does or does not pertain to the video or rider in question, just pointing it out in general since this seems a common theme people bring up when their favourite rider is (gasp!) criticised. You know what, if I hear of a certain UL rider rapping/polling his horses, or another UL rider beefing up her arms and putting severe bits in her horses' mouths to control them, or another UL practising RK for extended periods of time, or heck, an UL rider/owner killing their horse in an insurance scam... yeah, I'm sure as heck going to have something to say about it. Sorry if that offends some people. These are just people, after all. People with extensive knowledge, but people with their own ideas, thoughts, beliefs, morals, values, etc. People whose techniques I may not agree with, UL or not. Darn right I'm going to evaluate and learn from their ride, same as anyone else.

Now *deep breath*, rant over. SH, all that said, I don't think it's fair to necessarily pinpoint it 100 percent as a lameness. That said, I certainly observed some of the missteps you pointed out in the bit of vid I did watch. I felt it could very well be an imbalance - maybe even a soreness - due to a young horse yet being developed. Maybe a little muscle soreness during those particular movements. Maybe a case of the horse being yet stronger on one side (as is natural). I know the more I ask of my main guy, the more we have to work through and develop. So I can imagine that if I were to ask such an UL movement of him, he might take some missteps. It would be a part of the horse's development. In this case, EG may feel the missteps but may continue on in the interest of using it and the horse's overall developmental process as a teaching point in his clinic. Then again, perhaps the horse is just plain sore, and heck, maybe EG does not even feel it. BUT, I would not necessarily jump to that conclusion, particularly without knowing Dutch :winkgrin: Personally I would also want more extensive knowledge before I pinpointed to such a degree. SH perhaps you feel (either correctly or not) you do have such knowledge and that is your own opinion - no harm no foul. You might be right, or you could be right to an extent.

I do certainly see the missteps though and am grateful for another opportunity to learn. I'm just keeping in mind though this horse is still young and in the process of being developed. I see no reason to make it personal about EG and instead will simply keep this as a learning opportunity and continue to observe :yes: What I would ultimately love though, is an opportunity to ask EG himself, or another rider who has worked with him and understands his process. That's really the only way we'll really ever FULLY understand what is going on.

naturalequus
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:12 PM
I have a feeling that folks on this board would be as catty, childish, and petty as they need to be, to make SH disappear. How much b-----hit and ignorance does a person have to put up with ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol: Nope, I agree with Timex. As adults and professionals, we should be able to maintain professionalism and not descend ourselves to such a low level as seems consistent here on COTH. Our conversations and debates would sure as heck benefit from a lack of such pettiness, cattiness, and childishness.

That's too bad that one feels they have to "make" a certain individual disappear. My goodness, how does that look in action in RL??

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:13 PM
Being an adult is boring, I have to do that all day at work.

naturalequus
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:15 PM
I tried disagreeing with him in an adult, respectful way -- even PM'ed him in the past.

However, he's impervious to any ideas but his own, has multiple axes to grind, is litigious & close-minded.

I learn a lot from my fellow COTHers. From SH, I learn what NOT to do.

Aren't we all at times, when we believe in something? I have a pretty open mind, but am also pretty passionate on certain subjects also.

From SH, I've been poked into researching certain points and learning even more and have even gained certain insight and considered points I had not prior. Other times, I disagree fully. Just another person I disagree with at times.

ETA: SH I do sometimes feel the same way as Go Fish mentioned, that if someone disagrees with you that they are in the wrong. I do not think you intend to come across as such though and have not experienced such myself directly, but did want to mention it since I have observed your posts and felt as such at times as it pertained to other individuals.

Donella
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:17 PM
You people are INSANE. Honest to God ...it's mind boggling.

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:17 PM
Beer and Appletinis all around! That's what's needed out here. Booze up everyone. :lol:

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:18 PM
What do you mean YOU PEOPLE?

Donella
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:27 PM
That demonstrates your unwillingness to the possibility of learning something and that is ignorance at its best

The only thing demonstrated in this thread is the idiocy of a certain group of COTH "dressage" riders who seem to think extremely high of themselves. You've been "riding dressage" for the last fifteen years but you still can't get your horse round or sit the trot and yet you actually feel confident in voiceing your opinions on any and everything to do with dressage training. Do you have no humility? Or are you just THAT ignorant that you honestly believe you know something?

Go attack someone else's sport if you have nothing better to do.

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:31 PM
And, it's Howdy Doody Time!!! What do we say, kids?

BenNevis
Mar. 8, 2011, 04:44 PM
I still want to know how SH knows what the rider feels or doesn't...

Anyone? Buehler?

BN

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 05:02 PM
He's speshul. Really, really speshul.

alterhorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 05:17 PM
I believe the horse in the first video of this thread may have a loose shoe on his right hind hoof.

This is my opinion.

I'm utterly shocked and entirely disenchanted that no one else came up to this same conclusion. :no:

It's clearly my own fault for having such high expectations for you all to be exactly as I expected.

Woe as me, oh woe as me.

:p

dressurpferd01
Mar. 8, 2011, 05:23 PM
Im going to go ahead and get in on this thread before it gets locked. Hopefully it will remain open for at least another 30 minutes or so, so I can go grab a beer once I leave the barn.

To the topic at hand, spirithorse, post a video of you riding CORRECTLY and some here might take you a bit more seriously. So far, all the pictures we've seen have been, well, yeah, use your imagination.

alicen
Mar. 8, 2011, 05:37 PM
I'm pleasantly surprised to feel no desire to respond to SH's posts whatsoever. An internalized ignore?

Carry on.

dressurpferd01
Mar. 8, 2011, 06:23 PM
Phew, did I make in before the inevitable lock?

Beer...check.

Ok, carry on.

alterhorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 06:38 PM
Oh give me a home, where the dutch warmbloods roam, and the indoor is open all day...

alterhorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 06:50 PM
Where never is heard, any trainers mean word, and my horse thinks a lot of his hay...

Equibrit
Mar. 8, 2011, 07:27 PM
If nobody wants to worship at the Church of the Satanic Contraction and Discount House of Worship, might I suggest that you put the preacher on your ignore list; he may tire of preaching to the converted, bugger off and spew his gospel somewhere else.

rainechyldes
Mar. 8, 2011, 07:43 PM
Certain individuals make the point that they are not willing to be observant and thats ok.

The observation is of a wonderful horse who is having an issue. He is a most elegant mover.
The horse takes 21 missteps with the right rear. In pirouette he does not want to correctly weight the right leg. These are representative of a muscle issue in leg. The missteps do not occur when he is moving forward but rather only in passage, etc...............

As for the rider feeling it. Not all riders are that aware....it does not make him a bad person, just not aware of the missteps.

Well.. I'm stil watching the vid, (waiting for the restof it to sl) while reading comments however..

I need to disagree with your blanket statements you are making about the horse. Hell I'm a certified (and practicing) equine massage therapist and have been for many years, I would never make such a sweeping diagnosis as you did above without
A/ Properly assessing the horse in person, u/s and free
B/ properly assessing the horse in person...
C/ See B and A.

You have zero idea what the rider feels, or whether or not the horse has assessed, is being treated for a muscular/ or chiro issue/ or its a ongoing 'Im in training' issue.

Utterly unprofessional and careless to say its a health issue, totally unable to assess such from a vid.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:12 PM
You're absolutely right, Equibrit.

And so are you, Rainechyldes!

Bogey2
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:23 PM
Oh give me a home, where the dutch warmbloods roam, and the indoor is open all day... Where never is heard, any trainers mean word, and my horse thinks a lot of his hay...

:lol:

How often at night when the heavens are bright
With the light of the glittering stars,
Have I stood here amazed and asked as I gazed
If their bitless bridle exceeds that of ours.

alibi_18
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:23 PM
Have I missed something? I was riding both my injured horses. Yeah I know, they both had some little missteps...but like Edward, I carried on and didn't care about what I felt. :)

Now I'm really having a martini! Pass the olives please.

MistyBlue
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:24 PM
Hasn't anyone spotted what is wrong with "spirithorse" yet ?


I would say that would be neurologic as opposed to muscular.

Bogey2
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:26 PM
I would say that would be neurologic as opposed to muscular.

yes, the "knucklehead" diagnosis comes to mind:lol:

Dutch
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:56 PM
Maybe before criticizing such a video demonstration one should be aware of what the rider is saying. I happened to have someone who understood Dutch who could translate when I watched the video. Even without translation, I by no means considered this horse to be lame and I actually joked with my "translator" because my comments about some of the movements almost mirrored what Edward was saying.

Throughout the exercise, Edward is explaining that he is showing movements that the horse is still learning - he is still very green (Voice is not yet at GP level). Edward says Vocie has a very good hindleg, but still needs more muscle to carry himself. He wants to show the people how you can do it with a young horse and how you react when something goes wrong (like the one tempis). Sometimes Voice gets a little lazy and doesn't pick up his hind legs, so he asks him to go forward a bit and then he does it better. The horse sometimes gets confused still between passage and piaffe. He says in the tempis it takes time and practice for the horse to learn how all four legs should go - not to just change in front. He doesn't try to correct them when they don't change behind but really praises them when they get it right. At the end, in the passage/piaffe, he was commenting his horse was already tired - he still has to build more muscle. Also, in asking for collection, the horse may have started to do passage, but he didn't ask for it, so he just asks the horse to go forward again. Edward very much felt the inconsistencies.

The whole demonstration was about Edward showcasing his new (to him) mount, Voice, and his aptitude for the upper levels. Voice is by no means a confirmed GP horse.

My bit - any horse just learning p/p is uneven at first due to lack of strength. This extreme collection great muscle conditioning built up over time and proper training to work this out. Same goes for crossing legs at the piaffe.

spirithorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:16 PM
Thank you for your input as to what Edward Gal was saying.

[quote=Dutch;5471056]Maybe before criticizing such a video demonstration one should be aware of what the rider is saying.

As an observer, what the horse is doing contains more information than what a rider might diseminate. And that is because not all riders are actually aware of what a minor muscle strain/spasm will cause.

Throughout the exercise, Edward is explaining that he is showing movements that the horse is still learning - he is still very green (Voice is not yet at GP level). Edward says Vocie has a very good hindleg, but still needs more muscle to carry himself.

This is nonsense. The horse will not develop anymore muscle to carry himself. What he has is what he will always have. One can only teach and allow a horse to move itself correctly.

Sometimes Voice gets a little lazy and doesn't pick up his hind legs, so he asks him to go forward a bit and then he does it better.

This is could be correct if both hindlegs were having missteps, however, only the right is having missteps and it is in only the collected state that it appears. It does not appear at extension.

The horse sometimes gets confused still between passage and piaffe.

The 21 visable missteps had nothing to do with being confused.

quote]

Wild Rose
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:21 PM
This is nonsense. The horse will not develop anymore muscle to carry himself. What he has is what he will always have. One can only teach and allow a horse to move itself correctly.
...

The 21 visable missteps had nothing to do with being confused.



You don't ride, do you?

kinnip
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:22 PM
You really do believe they are automatons, don't you?

hntrjmprpro45
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:30 PM
I would recommend that spirithorse take an anatomy and physiology class before making statements about muscle development issues.

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:35 PM
Spirithorse, I am about to blow your mind. Are you wearing socks? If not, put some on.

Every day, for one month, I would like you to do 36 bicep curls with a ten pound dumbbell with your right arm only.

After one month you will measure both biceps. Astonishingly, the arm that you lifted the weight with will have a larger bicep muscle.

I would tell you why, but for that you have to subscribe to my newsletter.

alibi_18
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:44 PM
Spirithorse, I am about to blow your mind. Are you wearing socks? If not, put some on.

Every day, for one month, I would like you to do 36 bicep curls with a ten pound dumbbell with your right arm only.

After one month you will measure both biceps. Astonishingly, the arm that you lifted the weight with will have a larger bicep muscle.

I would tell you why, but for that you have to subscribe to my newsletter.

HEY, only GM can say Dumbell!!!



Or maybe it wasn't meant as an insult?!? :lol:

MistyBlue
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:08 PM
You don't ride, do you?

Yes, he does ride:

http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg

Carol Ames
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjOCr-Wm2RE&feature=related

Carol Ames
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:47 PM
certainly he will build more muscle :yes:working in collection, even thoroughbreds and quarter horses:lol: do; slight unevenness behind as seen here is not uncommon :no:when a horse starts at 2ndlevel, i.e. collection a judge may, from time to time mark it as lameness :obut, it is usually a stage of learning:yes: where muscles tire and "catch or spasm more:( easily; I challenge any human here to try to do with their legs and an "engaged pelvis:eek: to do what this horse is being asked to do; such an exercise can help us to feel in our bodies what the horse is asked to do.do it all from a partial squat/ deep knee bend:eek::yes:

Carol Ames
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:54 PM
to see the front legs moving normally; not stylized and "funky:mad: like Totilas; since this horse does not move ;)that way and Gribaldi also does not where did his front leg movement come:confused: from; has anyone asked him that?

Carol Ames
Mar. 8, 2011, 10:58 PM
How about beer all around?:lol:

Im going to go ahead and get in on this thread before it gets locked. Hopefully it will remain open for at least another 30 minutes or so, so I can go grab a beer once I leave the barn.

To the topic at hand, spirithorse, post a video of you riding CORRECTLY and some here might take you a bit more seriously. So far, all the pictures we've seen have been, well, yeah, use your imagination.

LarkspurCO
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:00 PM
[quote=Dutch;5471056]Maybe before criticizing such a video demonstration one should be aware of what the rider is saying.

As an observer, what the horse is doing contains more information than what a rider might diseminate. And that is because not all riders are actually aware of what a minor muscle strain/spasm will cause.

Throughout the exercise, Edward is explaining that he is showing movements that the horse is still learning - he is still very green (Voice is not yet at GP level). Edward says Vocie has a very good hindleg, but still needs more muscle to carry himself.

This is nonsense. The horse will not develop anymore muscle to carry himself. What he has is what he will always have. One can only teach and allow a horse to move itself correctly.

Sometimes Voice gets a little lazy and doesn't pick up his hind legs, so he asks him to go forward a bit and then he does it better.

This is could be correct if both hindlegs were having missteps, however, only the right is having missteps and it is in only the collected state that it appears. It does not appear at extension.

The horse sometimes gets confused still between passage and piaffe.

The 21 visable missteps had nothing to do with being confused.

quote]

Wow, you have taken absurd to a whole new level. Bravo!

LarkspurCO
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:03 PM
How about beer all around?:lol:

I'm having a Mike's Margarita.:D

ThreeFigs
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:18 PM
Oooh! Mike makes a Margarita? I haven't tried that one!

There is all this knowledge, based on sound training, biomechanics, and good riding here, yet the Reverend thinks WE'RE all wrong and he's the one with the light, the truth and the way. He can SEE more than EG can FEEL! WOW!

Yet he insists he's not condescending. Riiiiight.

Delusional.

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:20 PM
since this horse does not move that way and Gribaldi also does not where did his front leg movement come from; has anyone asked him that?

Oh, Totilas? He's probably lame too. A muscle issue, you know.

LarkspurCO
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:23 PM
Oh, yeah, that Mike is a genius. You can get them most anywhere. I like the traditional lime -- yummy.

http://www.mikeshard.com/marg.php

nhwr
Mar. 9, 2011, 12:01 AM
stop feeding it, please :yes:

Donella
Mar. 9, 2011, 12:11 AM
You don't ride, do you?

I suppose you could call it riding...I mean, he is on the back of the horse. But it doesn't go much farther than that.

ljo
Mar. 9, 2011, 01:28 AM
Looks like stringhalt to me

alicen
Mar. 9, 2011, 05:18 AM
This is nonsense. The horse will not develop anymore muscle to carry himself. What he has is what he will always have.

Deep sigh. 1 -2-3-4......10

Velvet
Mar. 9, 2011, 09:39 AM
Die! Die! Die! I guess SH and others are determined to keep this thing alive. A zombie topic. Fine. I'm off to have some drinks and watch mud wrestling. It's a LOT more interesting than this topic.

chaltagor
Mar. 9, 2011, 12:03 PM
This is nonsense. The horse will not develop anymore muscle to carry himself. What he has is what he will always have. One can only teach and allow a horse to move itself correctly.

This is just so precious; I think it's the quote of the year. If you were to look at a picture of Arnold Schwarzenegger and then a picture of Paul Ruebens would you think they looked the same?

MistyBlue
Mar. 9, 2011, 12:09 PM
An animal can't develop extra muscles, but they certainly can increase their existing muscle. Not only in strength, but in control.
Which is very common in a green horse.
So common it's pretty much Equine 101. I would be extremely worried of a myotherapist who didn't know the very bare bones basics of muscle development in mammals.

mickeydoodle
Mar. 9, 2011, 05:50 PM
Heavens, this thread is still going? Where is my wine!

Wait, I just read the no more muscle strength post by SH. I now have to tell my patients that they will never get their calf muscle bigger/stronger/more coordinated after it has shrunk up in a cast for 6 weeks (treatment for ankle fracture). Makes those 6 years of residency, year of fellowship and 17 years of orthopeadic surgery practice seem like a waste- I just need to look at the website. Funny though, I send patients to physical therapy, they do the work, they go from skinny wobbly, limping to pretty close to normal in about 6 weeks. (Obviously, I know it takes much longer for GP muscles and coordination, merely an analogy)

spirithorse
Mar. 9, 2011, 06:47 PM
An animal can't develop extra muscles, but they certainly can increase their existing muscle. Not only in strength, but in control.

That is the point. Control not strength! I have never observed a horse who developed like human muscle builders. I have seen horses whom have constrained their muscles into dense rigid muscle mass, rather than the natural suppleness that is normal.

Muscle atrophy can brought back, however, here we are talking about a horse without such occurance. The natural strength of the hindquarter of the horse is more than sufficient to perform the tasks being asked.

There are 21 missteps occurring on the right rear leg....this is not a strength issue, nor a balance issue, nor a question of the horse understanding the aids. All 21 missteps take place in collection not in extension, therefore, that clearly demonstrates there is a minor issue with the muscle structure of the right rear.

You can argue the opinion I express, however:
If you do not wish for this thread to continue then do not post anything!

hntrjmprpro45
Mar. 9, 2011, 07:03 PM
That is the point. Control not strength! I have never observed a horse who developed like human muscle builders. I have seen horses whom have constrained their muscles into dense rigid muscle mass, rather than the natural suppleness that is normal.

Muscle atrophy can brought back, however, here we are talking about a horse without such occurance. The natural strength of the hindquarter of the horse is more than sufficient to perform the tasks being asked.

There are 21 missteps occurring on the right rear leg....this is not a strength issue, nor a balance issue, nor a question of the horse understanding the aids. All 21 missteps take place in collection not in extension, therefore, that clearly demonstrates there is a minor issue with the muscle structure of the right rear.

You can argue the opinion I express, however:
If you do not wish for this thread to continue then do not post anything!

Do you spend much time with young horses? You will see a big difference in muscle mass and tone as they progress through their training. While all horses are naturally strong in their hind quarters, it is often the smaller muscle groups that must be strengthened for high level competition (dressage or jumpers). These would be specific muscles in the neck, back and abdomen. So yes, the horse has the strength in the hindquarters but it needs those accessory muscles to properly use them (which is why you never want a horse to travel hollow and inverted).

Again, I would highly recommend that you take an anatomy and physiology course as you seem to be a little confused on the subject. Sorry guys, I know you wanted to kill this thread but the biochemist in me is horrified at the wannabe science talk going on.

spirithorse
Mar. 9, 2011, 07:29 PM
Do you spend much time with young horses?

YES, as a matter of fact.

You will see a big difference in muscle mass and tone as they progress through their training.

Do not want muscle mass, want muscle suppleness, the mass [density] interfers with suppleness.

While all horses are naturally strong in their hind quarters, it is often the smaller muscle groups that must be strengthened for high level competition (dressage or jumpers). These would be specific muscles in the neck, back and abdomen. So yes, the horse has the strength in the hindquarters but it needs those accessory muscles to properly use them (which is why you never want a horse to travel hollow and inverted).

The most important muscle structure of the horse is the torso. Without the horse learning to use it with a rider aboard, the back is hollowed and the hindquarter is not correctly engaged.

Again, I would highly recommend that you take an anatomy and physiology course as you seem to be a little confused on the subject.

A biochemist, hmm, and this qualifies you as an expert in equine biomechanics? Over the 40 plus years of my equine involvement I have made horses sound that had muscle injuries which no one observed. I have even had the opportunity to demonstrate to several vets, that hocks or stifles were not the problem but rather muscles were.

Sorry guys, I know you wanted to kill this thread but the biochemist in me is horrified at the wannabe science talk going on.

And for your snide jab....I do have several credientialed individuals who will participate in the research predicated upon the knowledge I presented to them.


SO NOW ---- IS IT POSSIBLE TO END THIS THREAD

THANKS

alg0181
Mar. 9, 2011, 07:40 PM
SO NOW ---- IS IT POSSIBLE TO END THIS THREAD

THANKS

But...you just said:
If you do not wish for this thread to continue then do not post anything!

Why all the red and bold when you are also perpetuating it? :confused:

Coppers mom
Mar. 9, 2011, 07:40 PM
Could you please PM me the names and numbers of these vets? I'd love to follow up and hear more about your claims.

princessfluffybritches
Mar. 9, 2011, 07:53 PM
Edward has only been riding this stallion for six months, and he had been trained by some one else before this.
Horses often start out uneven in pa/pi when first schooling it.
Edward rides not just the movement, he rides the movement with brilliance. This horse has the movements- the brilliance he is being asked for will take some more time for development, especially regarding even muscle development for both left and right hind legs.

I tend to agree with this......And I'd like to thank you all for being so entertaining!

hntrjmprpro45
Mar. 9, 2011, 08:27 PM
SO NOW ---- IS IT POSSIBLE TO END THIS THREAD

THANKS

Am I an expert in equine biomechanics? Maybe not but....

I am a trainer and instructor who has spent a lot of time learning from international riders

I have a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology as well as minors in chemistry and microbiology. I have taken extensive amounts of physiological sciences as well.

I have done an intensive vet internship and worked alongside some wonderfully talented equine vets at one of the best vet med schools in the country (I was initially on a career path to be a vet but my professional riding and teaching career took off).

So expert? No but pretty damn close :)

nhwr
Mar. 9, 2011, 09:02 PM
I have never observed a horse who developed like human muscle builders. I have seen horses whom have constrained their muscles into dense rigid muscle mass, rather than the natural suppleness that is normal.
That is because you don't ride, train or condition horses properly.


Over the 40 plus years of my equine involvement I have made horses sound that had muscle injuries which no one observed.This takes the cake! Thank you sh. All these years, I was "winning" and the world just couldn't process it with its limited mind because they don't have tiger blood.

I am off to start another thread about all the incurable diseases I have healed that no one else knew existed.

No don't thank me. It is all in a days work. I am a warlock and an effing genius!

Velvet
Mar. 9, 2011, 09:39 PM
nhwr

If quoting psycho Charlie Sheen doesn't kill this thread, nothing will! :lol:

mickeydoodle
Mar. 9, 2011, 11:48 PM
from SH website, send a check asap, I know i am going to send one tomorrow, as soon as i know who the scientific observers are


"Supporting Donations

In depth and comprehensive scientific research in the the actual impact upon the horse by the rider, equipment used and schooling methods used does not exist.

We are seeking investor/investors to purchase the necessary equipment to establish the scientific research clinics.

Required funding is $1.5 million dollars and a business plan is available to responsible investor/investors.
{Investment will be paid back to the original investor/investors}

If the health and welfare of the horse is the most important aspect of the industry to you, the individual, then please consider this investment. The data gathered will be at the forefront of improving the health and welfare of the horse, as well as, the performance of the horse no matter the venue.

"Impacts upon the performance of the ridden horse by the Rider, Equipment and Schooling methods used."

Reason for performing study:
To obtain actual physical scientific data that reflects the impact that the rider and rider’s aids have upon the horse.
To obtain actual physical scientific data that reflects the impact that the individual pieces of equipment used have upon the horse.
To obtain actual physical scientific data that reflects the impact that the specific schooling/riding methods have upon the horse.

Objective:
To obtain data regarding the forces induced upon the horse and its muscle structure, gait stride, tempo, etc., when being ridden over a specified track for specified distance at the walk, trot and collected trot.

Methods:
Electronic sensors, thermography and two gait analysis software programs.

Potential relevance:
The position of the head and neck of the horse relative to the engagement of the shoulders are a direct result of the influences by the rider’s body motion and placement, as well as, by the rider’s hands. Said relevance delineates whether the back of the horse is raised and the hindquarter thoroughly engaged. Said relevance delineates the introduction of muscle injuries upon the horse.

There shall be credentialed individuals who will participate and peer review the data gathered."



hmmmmmm, who is "credentialed"?

Sancudo
Mar. 10, 2011, 12:00 AM
That is because you don't ride, train or condition horses properly.

This takes the cake! Thank you sh. All these years, I was "winning" and the world just couldn't process it with its limited mind because they don't have tiger blood.

I am off to start another thread about all the incurable diseases I have healed that no one else knew existed.

No don't thank me. It is all in a days work. I am a warlock and an effing genius!


Damn, you beat me do the Charlie Sheen jokes! I was going to ask if being a "maverick" was like being a warlock!

alicen
Mar. 10, 2011, 06:15 AM
"There shall be credentialed individuals who will participate and peer review the data gathered."

Only in SH's world is it legit for the participants in a scientific experiment to also do the peer review.

Carol Ames
Mar. 10, 2011, 11:53 AM
Hilary Clayton, Kent Allen Vasko, Joyce Harman ALL DVMs:cool:







from SH website, send a check asap, I know i am going to send one tomorrow, as soon as i know who the scientific observers arehmmmmmm, who is "credentialed"? Hilary Clayton, Kent Allen Vasko, Joyce Harman ALL DVMs:cool:



In depth and comprehensive scientific research in the the actual impact upon the horse by the rider, equipment used and schooling methods used does not exist.

We are seeking investor/investors to purchase the necessary equipment to establish the scientific research clinics.

Required funding is $1.5 million dollars and a business plan is available to responsible investor/investors.
{Investment will be paid back to the original investor/investors}

If the health and welfare of the horse is the most important aspect of the industry to you, the individual, then please consider this investment. The data gathered will be at the forefront of improving the health and welfare of the horse, as well as, the performance of the horse no matter the venue.

"Impacts upon the performance of the ridden horse by the Rider, Equipment and Schooling methods used."

Reason for performing study:
To obtain actual physical scientific data that reflects the impact that the rider and rider’s aids have upon the horse.
To obtain actual physical scientific data that reflects the impact that the individual pieces of equipment used have upon the horse.
To obtain actual physical scientific data that reflects the impact that the specific schooling/riding methods have upon the horse.

Objective:
To obtain data regarding the forces induced upon the horse and its muscle structure, gait stride, tempo, etc., when being ridden over a specified track for specified distance at the walk, trot and collected trot.

Methods:
Electronic sensors, thermography and two gait analysis software programs.

Potential relevance:
The position of the head and neck of the horse relative to the engagement of the shoulders are a direct result of the influences by the rider’s body motion and placement, as well as, by the rider’s hands. Said relevance delineates whether the back of the horse is raised and the hindquarter thoroughly engaged. Said relevance delineates the introduction of muscle injuries upon the horse.

There shall be credentialed individuals who will participate and peer review the data gathered."



hmmmmmm, who is "credentialed"?

alto
Mar. 10, 2011, 12:18 PM
Yes, he does ride:

http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg

Yes Edward Gal, beware!!!

:rolleyes: Incroyable

katarine
Mar. 10, 2011, 01:02 PM
Be still my dropped back, that's SOME RIDIN' you got goin' on there!!

ThreeFigs
Mar. 10, 2011, 06:13 PM
Carol, bless you, your quote of Mickydoodle's text from SH's website appears to indicate that Clayton, Vasko and Harmon are participating. I know this was probably a "fat finger' moment, just reassure me that it ain't so!

So WHO ARE his "credentialed" individuals? By whose estimation are they "credentialed"? Yes, it ain't right if they participate AND "peer review" the work.

Seriously. :rolleyes:

mickeydoodle
Mar. 10, 2011, 07:10 PM
Carol, bless you, your quote of Mickydoodle's text from SH's website appears to indicate that Clayton, Vasko and Harmon are participating. I know this was probably a "fat finger' moment, just reassure me that it ain't so!

So WHO ARE his "credentialed" individuals? By whose estimation are they "credentialed"? Yes, it ain't right if they participate AND "peer review" the work.

Seriously. :rolleyes:

I agree with you Beasmom- please tell me these three people are not working with SH-