PDA

View Full Version : S and O level judges who have never ridden upper levels - a question about them



Sonesta
Mar. 7, 2011, 01:13 PM
I am editing this to make clear that I am not trying to bash any particular judge/trainer - or anyone at all. I am curious how they can do it. I leave the original post below.
=============

Okay, so I've been getting invitations for years to ride in clinics with Axel Steiner, where they advertise him teaching all levels up through Grand Prix.

And I know the guy is an Olympic level judge and all, but here's the deal:

I have been hearing for years and from many credible sources that Axel Steiner has, himself, never shown beyond 2nd level in dressage. If this is true, how can he teach riding clinics that are anything more than "what the judge will look for at a show?" I mean, how can he teach movements that he's never ridden???

I'm really not intending to bash the guy. I'm sure he's got a good eye at a show after judging for so many years. I'm just curious how he can teach moves he's never ridden.

Velvet
Mar. 7, 2011, 03:03 PM
Here's his bio: http://www.axelsteiner.com/

Not sure how high he showed, but it's quite possible that even if he did not show FEI much, he has the proper level of training from the places he studied and the people he worked with to make him of value. Not sure, but it's happened with other riders who don't show/compete for various reasons. SRS riders don't necessarily compete...neither do the CN riders.

Bogey2
Mar. 7, 2011, 03:10 PM
I'm just curious how he can teach moves he's never ridden.

you said he has never shown the level....that does not mean he has never ridden them.

Velvet
Mar. 7, 2011, 03:11 PM
you said he has never shown the level....that does not mean he has never ridden them.

I think that was my point. :lol:

Ziutek
Mar. 7, 2011, 03:29 PM
From my experience he is an interesting guy to clinic with in the sense that he can give you the judge's view of things. He is knowledgeable and can be very good with some riders. However I would not count on him to solve a complicated training problem or deal with a horse that doesn't fit the typical mold.
He is good in the way that he does not mince words and he will say what he sees good or bad.
I would go watch his clinics if he came to my area again, but I would probably not ride again with the same horse. If I got a new horse then maybe.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 7, 2011, 03:29 PM
Gosh, I'd ride with him in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself. He's a great judge who knows his stuff.

merrygoround
Mar. 7, 2011, 03:49 PM
From my experience he is an interesting guy to clinic with in the sense that he can give you the judge's view of things. He is knowledgeable and can be very good with some riders. However I would not count on him to solve a complicated training problem or deal with a horse that doesn't fit the typical mold.
He is good in the way that he does not mince words and he will say what he sees good or bad.
I would go watch his clinics if he came to my area again, but I would probably not ride again with the same horse. If I got a new horse then maybe.


[Quote]Bogey2]you said he has never shown the level....that does not mean he has never ridden them.[Quote]

Having ridden them, doesn't mean having trained to them, which could be perhaps the reason for Ziutek's take. A good rider, with excellent coaching can ride an acceptable test. Having the patience and toolbox to train to that level, on varying horses is an whole nother matter.

siegi b.
Mar. 7, 2011, 05:05 PM
To me Axel Steiner is great to give you the judge's point of view, i.e. what gets rewarded, what doesn't. I would not look to him to solve any difficult training issues...

Also spectated a clinic where he went over the new tests and that was well done....

Pony Fixer
Mar. 7, 2011, 05:06 PM
He's an "S" judge, right? Don't they have a minimum competition standard for achieving that level?

mjhco
Mar. 7, 2011, 05:07 PM
I would ride with him in a heart beat. On my very 'non traditional' dressage horse.

Donella
Mar. 7, 2011, 05:15 PM
I thought he was an "O" judge. Don't they have to have competed at the FEI level to be able to judge it? I know the requirements are quite strict.....?

Bogey2
Mar. 7, 2011, 05:33 PM
I think that was my point

yeah, but you said it much better:lol:

mjhco
Mar. 7, 2011, 05:42 PM
I thought he was an "O" judge. Don't they have to have competed at the FEI level to be able to judge it? I know the requirements are quite strict.....?

You can have trained horses and/or riders to GP

Sonesta
Mar. 7, 2011, 08:24 PM
Um, not when he got his license. He was grandfathered in.

cuatx55
Mar. 7, 2011, 08:27 PM
He judges the Olympics (O-judge), I'd gladly ride with him. He's one of the best!!! Doesn't bother me what he has/hasn't ridden a certain level, its clear he knows his stuff.

Beentheredonethat
Mar. 7, 2011, 08:42 PM
I have no opinion on Axel as I don't know him, but this is the same issue as with DeKunffy. He never showed, either. Both were able to get their licenses before there were any riding or training requirements.

That said, like others said, his usefulness to be able to see the judge's POV might be useful. I think he has a pretty solid reputation as a judge.

mjhco
Mar. 7, 2011, 08:56 PM
Um, not when he got his license. He was grandfathered in.


Well, all I can say if anyone has ANY problems riding with ANYONE then DO NOT RIDE with that person.

Case closed.

good booie
Mar. 7, 2011, 09:41 PM
I will be auditing his clinic in two weeks. If this thread is still alive I will chime in after. I am really looking forward to going:).

SillyHorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:16 AM
I'm pretty sure that most figure skating judges couldn't do a quad jump; most couldn't do a triple. But they sure are qualified to know what is good and what is not good, and I'll bet that most know how to make the not-so-good better.

I agree with mjhco -- if you're not confident in the clinician, take your money elsewhere.

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:31 AM
Seems a bit odd to be asking about him and posting what you've heard about his credentials. Are you trying to dissuade others from riding with him because you don't want to?

Why not just contact Betsy and ask for her opinion. :lol:

Capriole
Mar. 8, 2011, 11:32 AM
A few clarifications:

1. USEF now requires minimum scores at GP to enter the "S" judge program. This was not always the case, and there are a number of "S" judges who have never competed GP who were licensed under the old standards.

2. The FEI does not require "O" judges to have competed GP. National federations (the USEF for the US, for example) nominate their senior level of judges for FEI licensing. It is a known fact that it's easier to get an FEI licence if you are from a country without many dressage judges. The FEI is international and wants/needs judges from all countries. (Point of interest; this obviously does not apply to the United States.)

3. I believe Mr. Steiner has competed through PSG but I'm just as guilty of spreading rumors as anyone else. ;)

TMPF
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:43 PM
I would clinic with him again in a heartbeat. He pushed me out of my confort zone and was able to work with this amateur rider and help me improve on my weaknesses.

Sonesta
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:51 PM
You see, I am NOT trying to disparage him at all. I am genuinely curious if people think someone can TEACH riders movements that they have not, themselves, ridden or trained.

Someone mentioned Olympic ice skating judges. I do certainly believe you can develop an eye to allow you to JUDGE something that you cannot do yourself. But, I don't think those ice skating judges (who have never done the moves) are out there teaching those moves - or are they? And if so, how can they do this?

Truly, it is curiosity. I don't know Mr. Steiner and have no bone to pick with him. Just thought it was an interesting topic.

I guess I should have just said "those judges who have never ridden the moves, but teach clinics on riding" instead of mentioning him. I'm sure he is not the only one. Just the only one I know of. I'll change the thread title.

SillyHorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:55 PM
Well, it was skating judges, and yes, there are many people who haven't skated competitively in eons and still are great coaches. One who comes to mind right away is Carol Heiss Jenkins, Olympic gold medalist in 1960.

Sonesta
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:58 PM
Ah, but she DID once perform the moves. That is different from a judge who never has.

SillyHorse
Mar. 8, 2011, 12:59 PM
Ah, but she DID once perform the moves. That is different from a judge who never has.
I can guarantee you Carole Heiss never did a quadruple jump -- maybe not even a triple -- yet she is one of the top figure skating coaches in the US.

But, OK you win. Axel Steiner is not qualified to teach you.

Sonesta
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:04 PM
Perhaps you don't see the distinction. I don't know what levels there are of figure skating competition. But if the judge has only skated at the low levels fo the sport, how could they teach the uppler levels?

The skater you mention is an olympic gold medal winner. I'd say she has the credentials to teach!

yaya
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:10 PM
But ice skating was much different in 1960. They didn't have the super-athletic jumps like triples and quads that they do now. Yet the person mentioned is still one of the top coaches. She didn't have to do those moves then, but can apparently teach them now.

Same with dressage judges who coach. They may not have done the moves themselves, but if they understand how the move comes about and how to teach to get the desired result, then what's the problem?

What about someone who gets injured? Say they never got to show up to a certain level due to their injury, but they can teach someone else how to. Are you saying they should never coach because they are now physically incapable of riding? What about their mind? They can still use that!

Sonesta
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:16 PM
Of course someone who gets injured can still teach. But if they were riding second level when they got injured, I'm curous how they could teach grand prix.

Capriole
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:18 PM
Sonesta, it's a very interesting question (at least to me!). I do think someone can "coach" movements they haven't ridden. For example, noting something like "that half pass needs more bend." I don't think someone can be the best trainer in the sense of explaining to the rider how to fix the flaws. If the rider doesn't know how to increase the bend in the half pass, just saying "more bend" won't help her. And if the rider runs into a major stumbling block, she probably needs someone who has experienced that issue and worked through it to help her.

I would venture to guess that the judge in question could give a great clinic but might not be the best choice for a permanent trainer.

alg0181
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:23 PM
I do not think it is necessary to have ridden a particular movement in order to help someone learn it. The basic principles are all the same.

Plus I find it very doubtful anyway that an Olympic judge has never ridden GP movements. Some people just don't have a desire to show.

hopashore1
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:28 PM
Being a good rider does not mean you'll be an incredible teacher

Being a good teacher doesn't mean you were the world's best rider.

Competing at the upper levels in any discipline requires lots of money, a very nice horse, the time, and the DESIRE to want to show. Some people don't, or can't, meet those requirements.

Velvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:33 PM
Okay, so what about all those people who get their medals and ride only made horses and don't know how to train one? Or those people who can ride, but can't teach their way out of a wet paper bag?

Then there are the people who have trained a lot of horses to do movements at the upper levels, have worked with a myriad of top trainers, and often teach people who are riding the upper levels (successfully because of these instructors). It happens all ways.

I think that the problem a lot of people might find with someone like the original person under discussion is that most people need someone to tell them exactly how to perform and improve something. A person that has been taught to judge well and has ridden the movements (whether or not they had a GP horse or put them all together) can work with people who already have a clue how to ride the movements. They just tell them what needs to be better, and those riders can interpret it. This means that somewhere along the line the rider was already told how to ride and train the movement.

Different clinicians/coaches for different reasons at different points in your career.

Truthiness
Mar. 8, 2011, 01:47 PM
I would venture to guess that the judge in question could give a great clinic but might not be the best choice for a permanent trainer.
This; and, if you're smart, you'll clinic with him before showing in front of him. :lol:

Plantagenet
Mar. 8, 2011, 06:30 PM
Have had Axel to my farm for a clinic and every horse went better. He was lovely.

chancellor2
Mar. 8, 2011, 07:30 PM
Having ridden with Karl Mikolka multiple times, I can tell you I don't give a DAMN what level he competed at. That man knows his stuff.

merrygoround
Mar. 8, 2011, 08:21 PM
Having ridden with Karl Mikolka multiple times, I can tell you I don't give a DAMN what level he competed at. That man knows his stuff.

Mikolka came up thru the SRS. Of course he knows his stuff!


:lol: :lol:

Axel Steiners early years were as a Jumper rider.His early US experience in the ring was Medal/Maclay. He still arrived here knowing more about dressage than many of us.

exvet
Mar. 8, 2011, 09:33 PM
Well I see nothing in the bio that confirms he has never ridden or trained through the FEI levels. For comparison sake how many successful racing and steeplechase trainers have never competed in their discipline? I do not know but I think it's entirely possible that he has more experience than what the OP is willing to give credit which could be true of other judges who have not shown at GP. I've been riding with someone for the past 6+ years who has never shown GP (or FEI for that matter); however, she has trained and ridden international GP horses. She did so because she was a groom for an international rider (and O judge) who found themselves injured during her employ with them. As a result my riding instructor was given the chance of a lifetime (though I doubt she realized it at the time) which was to ride and keep conditioned those horses already competing at FEI and bringing along all the youngstock that were in her boss's barn. She continued on that path even after her boss returned to competition. A few years later she relocated to another country rode, trained and judged there before moving back to the states. Though she has never shown at the FEI level she has a fantastic eye and experience that many "national" GP riders have never had. She is a very competent trainer, instructor and rider (though due to a multitude of injuries doesn't ride as much as she did). She helped me get to FEI on a very unlikely candidate. As a result, I can quite easily see and understand how a judge such as the OP is using as her example could be quite capable in his job. It also doesn't hurt that I rode with a current student of his and watched him guide her to GP where she is doing quite well. He helped her secure "the horses", train the horses and compete them. She's a good rider in her own right but has valued his judgment which seems to be paying off. I would ride with him if I could afford to but I cannot.

Donella
Mar. 9, 2011, 12:08 AM
Is there any reason at all to believe that he hasn't ridden or trained to GP??

Capriole
Mar. 9, 2011, 05:47 AM
Is there any reason at all to believe that he hasn't ridden or trained to GP??
He says it in public.

Velvet
Mar. 9, 2011, 09:43 AM
exvet,

You hit a very interesting point. Think of Mike Matz. Here's a guy who has won Olympic medals in show jumping and is now training race horses. Sure, he can breeze them, etc., but he's never going to be a jockey! And yet, he's giving jocks direction all the time on how to ride the horse to get the most of it.

Hmmmmm....

People in this country often put way to much on the awards people win. I've cliniced with too many people over the years who have won awards, but really are the most horrible teachers you can hope to find. And I've also found a few (granted, not a lot) who have trained may upper level horses and sold them, without showing themselves, who are fantastic at diseminating information in a way that makes others able to understand and train their horses to the upper levels (people who show and are successful). I stopped looking at awards when people started buying their way to the top. I look at results in the horses they train--and in their students and how successful they are in the ring.

Some people just should NOT show competitively--too many cases of serious nerves (RD is a prime example of that one getting in the way when you are competing at those levels--he just kept thinking he could some day get past them).

Donella
Mar. 9, 2011, 09:54 AM
He says it in public

Seriously? He just goes around saying that?

MysticOakRanch
Mar. 9, 2011, 10:49 AM
Being a good rider does not mean you'll be an incredible teacher

Being a good teacher doesn't mean you were the world's best rider.

.

This is very true. Someone can TEACH quite well without ever "doing". There is some truth to the old adage, those who can, do, those who can't, teach. It is often used in a dismissive way, but it shouldn't always be considered dismissive. There are people who are excellent instructors, who have a great grasp and knowledge base, from watching and learning, and developing their eye.

There is a huge difference between a coach (instructor) and a trainer (who gets on and trains the horse). Some people are capable of doing both - others not so much. I've audited more then a few clinics where the clinician could get on and ride the horse wonderfully, but couldn't really instruct the riders when they rode - who might even be saying something different from what they DID when they rode.

No one can actually teach "feel" - but someone with a good, educated eye and a quick vocabulary can help by giving immediate feedback. Someone who audits a lot of good training situations can develop a toolbag without ever USING it themselves.

I've talked to some S judges who admit they couldn't make the "cut" based on the current USEF rules (scores of 65% or above at 4th level just for acceptance into the "r" program to judge up to 2nd level). The old rules didn't require the judge show or ride at that level. Many of those judges have excellent eyes, incredible education - and they have coached many riders to the FEI levels.

Velvet
Mar. 9, 2011, 11:23 AM
I've talked to some S judges who admit they couldn't make the "cut" based on the current USEF rules (scores of 65% or above at 4th level just for acceptance into the "r" program to judge up to 2nd level). The old rules didn't require the judge show or ride at that level. Many of those judges have excellent eyes, incredible education - and they have coached many riders to the FEI levels.

Oh, and let's not forget that nowadays you need to have judges signing off on you (letter of recommendation) to have you even be considered for judging. What does that mean? Who can kiss the best backside gets in? What about those living in the outer areas of the US who don't necessarily have judges they can befriend for this purpose alone? Bugs me that it's come down to a popularity contest and schmooze fest.

JDillon
Mar. 9, 2011, 12:18 PM
This is a great topic! I think we need to keep asking questions like this. Plus, there are USDF "L" judges, then you have to be an L judge with distinction to apply for your USEF "r". USEF gives "r" "R" "s" and "S" ratings. Then, you can be nominated to get your FEI "C." From there you can go on to FEI "I" and "O." There are qualifications you can find by searching USDF, USEF, and FEI sites. I believe you have to have scores through 4th level to go through the L program. However, the original intention was that the person get the scores on a horse they've trained themselves as the primary rider/trainer. But watch all the boards. Many L program participants now actively search for horses to lease to get their scores. That means the judges now entering the bottom of the judges training ladder aren't necessarily trainers.

Velvet
Mar. 9, 2011, 12:22 PM
L program requires Second Level scores.

SillyHorse
Mar. 9, 2011, 12:47 PM
This is a great topic! I think we need to keep asking questions like this. Plus, there are USDF "L" judges, then you have to be an L judge with distinction to apply for your USEF "r".
I'm pretty sure there are no "L" judges. There are "L" graduates, and "L" graduates with distinction.

atr
Mar. 9, 2011, 02:44 PM
First of all, the fact that someone hasn't shown at x level, doesn't mean they haven't ridden at that level.

Secondly, whilst I'm all about educated judges and continuing education, if you set the bar too high, you are in danger of having far too few judges to go round. Judging is a tough job. There are very few people who actually want to do it now. Make it even more difficult and you may well have a problem in the future. Remember, we are a tiny sport at the upper levels.

I think our judges in this country are actually very well trained and educated. The newer ones coming up through the current system (which many in the rest of the world admire and wish to emulate) particularly so.

Are they perfect? No, of course not, but on the whole they really are pretty good.

MysticOakRanch
Mar. 9, 2011, 03:01 PM
Many L program participants now actively search for horses to lease to get their scores. That means the judges now entering the bottom of the judges training ladder aren't necessarily trainers.

It also means those who can afford a fancy horse have a better chance of getting into the judging ranks. There is NO requirement you train the horse that you get the scores on.

To get into the L program, you need scores through 2nd level. To get into the "r" program, you need scores through 4th level, recommendations from judges, and a "pass with distinction" from the L program within 5 years. And so on. Money and connections make it much easier to move up the judging ranks under the current system.:no:

atr is right - the current system limits who can come up the ranks. The Education is good though - the L program is quite an education!

Capriole
Mar. 9, 2011, 03:05 PM
It also means those who can afford a fancy horse have a better chance of getting into the judging ranks.
This is so true. To enter the "r" program, you need scores of 65%+ at Fourth Level. A 65% at Fourth requires a pretty fancy horse. The exact percentage required has gone up and down over the years; I wish they would reduce it again, to 60% or even 62%. That would show the horse/rider clearly meet the requirements of the level without requiring really fancy gaits.

Lostboy
Mar. 9, 2011, 04:30 PM
Not sure if your problem refers to judging or teaching ,specifically, but my experience is:
There are many good judges in all disciplines who have not competed at top levels but are fully capable of scoring properly and know what it takes to improve.
There are many clinicians/trainers/groundsm'n who have never competed at top levels who are excellent teachers and have developed great horses and riders... from the ground
There are many riders who do compete at top levels who cannot start a green horse or cannot verbalize/teach someone else how to do what they do so naturally.
You need to observe and interact with the judge/clinician/rider and figure out what they are best at and how that skill helps you.

I know Axel, would be happy to show under him, not overly concerned about his credentials and can think of a couple clients that would benefit from listening/riding with him in a clinic.

But again, you have to decide what your own needs are and what will improve You !

netg
Mar. 9, 2011, 04:50 PM
I believe in the old adage, "A good stallion makes a GREAT gelding." :yes:

Was this meant for the Paragon thread? (If not, I'm not sure I want to know what you're saying about the original subject of this thread!) :lol:

Sonesta
Mar. 9, 2011, 04:54 PM
Let me state again that I have no issue with their judging. They obviously have great eyes. And I have no issue with them giving a clinic "from a judge's perspective."

My question is how they can teach clinics on TRAINING a horse to show at a level they haven't ridden or shown.

And the issue isn't limited to Mr. Steiner. There are others.

merrygoround
Mar. 9, 2011, 04:55 PM
I believe in the old adage, "A good stallion makes a GREAT gelding." :yes:

Are you having a confused day?????

Thy do but it's out of context for this thread,which is out of character for you.!

SillyHorse
Mar. 9, 2011, 05:48 PM
My question is how they can teach clinics on TRAINING a horse to show at a level they haven't ridden or shown.
Your question has been answered many times on this thread, but apparently it hasn't been answered to your satisfaction, because no one has answered, "THEY CAN'T." Unfortunately for you, it's doubtful that anyone will answer the way you want.

Now, my question to you is why do you care? If you think someone isn't qualified to teach you, don't pay money to ride in a clinic with him or her. It's really very simple.

mjhco
Mar. 9, 2011, 07:47 PM
Some have mentioned here that is so very expensive to pursue a judging career.

Please remember here is scholarship money for judge training in the Edgar Hotz Memorial fund from the Dressage Foundation.

Actually the Dressage Foundation has funding for a variety of things including amateurs AND trainers AND judges AND instructors AND young riders.

http://www.dressagefoundation.org/Funds_Programs.htm

jumpytoo
Mar. 9, 2011, 10:06 PM
Sonesta

My question is how they can teach clinics on TRAINING a horse to show at a level they haven't ridden or shown.

I think the answer is education and experience with horses.

I don't do many clinics but will use myself as an example. I have competed in most disciplines (successfully)
I have not shown FEI,GP,PSG but I feel I am fairly knowledgeable about dressage and others agree.
I am leaving the ring with a kiddie pony lesson and a dressage rider asks me to watch her canter pirouette. I do and can tell her where and how her horse went wrong. I can tell her that her hip dropped off and when her shoulder fell into her own hip that her horse fell into his. I can talk to her about impulsion and balance and she knows I am right. She reorganizes herself and has a better try at it. Then I tell her quit there because in my opinion, her horse really isn't fit enough for the movement and she needs to back up and get him in better condition. I talk about some exercises to do. She does what I said because I am correct..She is NOT my customer (hauls to a VBNT) but what I say echoes what her competing at top level trainer says to her. and yet I have never done any of the big stuff and not really interested in doing so.

To me it's about understanding the mechanics and being able to express verbally the how and why something does or does not work.
and truthfully, my butt does know the difference between a canter pirouette, haunch turn, rollback and a flat spin.

So my question for you is: Is it really about all the checks in the blocks along the way? or the ability to convey information to another person correctly ? Decide with your dollars.. pay for the education/credentials that you feel will specifically help you..or audit a bunch of different people and use the parts you like :))

Velvet
Mar. 9, 2011, 11:38 PM
Was this meant for the Paragon thread? (If not, I'm not sure I want to know what you're saying about the original subject of this thread!) :lol:

Yep! :lol: I hit the back button and posted in the wrong place. :lol: I removed it to avoid any more confusion. (Funny and weird mistake after all these years of posting out here!)

mickeydoodle
Mar. 9, 2011, 11:56 PM
I think Axel is a resonable judge, sometimes affected by "preconceived thoughts" but I would not look to him to work through training issues or problems.

ASB Stars
Mar. 10, 2011, 10:04 AM
I think Axel is a resonable judge, sometimes affected by "preconceived thoughts" but I would not look to him to work through training issues or problems.

this.

tm
Mar. 10, 2011, 11:23 AM
Axel asked me to respond, as he is busy at a show schooling one of his Grand Prix students.

Yes, Axel has ridden many Grand Prix horses. However he could not COMPETE at Grand Prix due to his career in US military service, which included 17 moves throughout the world. But wherever he was stationed, he worked with horses and riders of all levels.

He trained extensively in Germany and earned the Silver German Riding Medal. (This is presently the requirement for all German judges). I have personally seen him climb aboard in street clothes and school horses in piaffe and passage.

When he arrived in this country, there WAS NO DRESSAGE in many areas, and he helped to establish it in Texas, Oklahoma, Florida and Colorado. In 1973, he helped to establish the USDF itself.

For the past 23 years he has been one of the top 25 judges in the world. All his clinics are oversubscribed, mostly by repeat customers.

DownYonder
Mar. 10, 2011, 01:07 PM
'Nuff said. ;)

Thank you, Terri.

And thank Axel for his service to our country. Come to think of it, I will thank him myself next weekend when I audit his clinic in GA. :cool:

Sonesta
Mar. 10, 2011, 01:09 PM
That is excellent information to know!

mbm
Mar. 10, 2011, 01:50 PM
You see, I am NOT trying to disparage him at all. I am genuinely curious if people think someone can TEACH riders movements that they have not, themselves, ridden or trained.

Someone mentioned Olympic ice skating judges. I do certainly believe you can develop an eye to allow you to JUDGE something that you cannot do yourself. But, I don't think those ice skating judges (who have never done the moves) are out there teaching those moves - or are they? And if so, how can they do this?

Truly, it is curiosity. I don't know Mr. Steiner and have no bone to pick with him. Just thought it was an interesting topic.

I guess I should have just said "those judges who have never ridden the moves, but teach clinics on riding" instead of mentioning him. I'm sure he is not the only one. Just the only one I know of. I'll change the thread title.

there are several O judges/clinicians who have not ridden/trained what they judge/teach.

Withages is an example. her husband was the (well respected) trainer - she was a "house wife" (or so the word on the street says) and is very good at marketing!

I always think it is interesting to find out who folks *really* are... how they ride/train/etc . kinda of the same as meeting someone IRL from a BB and them being very different! lol! (this can go both ways..... i sometimes get very surprised in a good way when i meet folks :))

ThreeFigs
Mar. 10, 2011, 05:59 PM
I rmemeber Col. Steiner when he was here in the 1970's and showed hunters back when he was judging at the hunter/jumper shows around Colorado.

Yes, there were few or no dressage shows back then. They were just beginning to get a start.

mimiwenk
Mar. 10, 2011, 06:53 PM
Second that Axel is talented, has a wealth of info, and is both a great judge and instructor. I'd ride with him in a heartbeat.

exvet
Mar. 10, 2011, 08:44 PM
Axel asked me to respond, as he is busy at a show schooling one of his Grand Prix students.

If it's Michelle please pass on my best wishes for a good show. You can tell her it's from one of her former students (the shelter vet :winkgrin:)

Phillygirl
Mar. 12, 2011, 04:36 PM
If you have the wonderful good fortune to be able to ride with Mr. Steiner you should jump at the chance. You will find him to be a perfect gentleman, knowledgeable and way beyond capable of teaching anyone at any level. Mr. Steiner was one of just a few people being considered for the post of our US team coach not so long ago and I doubt USET would put anyone in charge of that who was not capable.

ASB Stars
Mar. 16, 2011, 11:08 AM
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I've been mulling this, and so, with due respect to everyone involved...I'd have to say that unless you have actually brought along, and trained a horse through the levels to Grand Prix, and competed at each of those levels, I am not sure you can possibly have the same view, knowledge and understanding, as someone who has done all of that.

For me, I would draw the analogy of a fighter pilot. It just isn't the same until you've been in battle.

And jumping up on a finished horse, and tuning up what the horse already knows how to do, well, that isn't the same, either.

Then there is the fact that you haven't been through the process that you are asking others to submit themselves to...and, I believe that your level of understanding and empathy could certainly come into play there, as well.

So- regardless of who we are discussing...those are the issues that come to mind, for me, anyway.

Carry on.

mbm
Mar. 16, 2011, 11:18 AM
yes, but aren't we judging the results of the training and not the training itself?

maybe a fine line, but seems an important one?

ASB Stars
Mar. 16, 2011, 11:50 AM
So, by that reasoning, a judge has no need to understand how to teach? I suppose that they could be stand alone skills, by the most extreme definition.

But, if the Judge also teaches, and clinics, what then?

Which begs the question-- how many of the S and O judges who have not competed through the levels, or trained horses through the levels, do, or do not, teach?