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View Full Version : How many OTTB's are currently going Advanced?



free
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:10 PM
I can name two...Courageous Comet and The Foreman, but I am sure that there are more.

I wish that there was a list of the horses going at the upper levels that contained a brief history of each.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

free
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:10 PM
I can name two...Courageous Comet and The Foreman, but I am sure that there are more.

I wish that there was a list of the horses going at the upper levels that contained a brief history of each.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Robby Johnson
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:14 PM
I know that Sloopy, ridden and owned by John Williams, fits that bill!

Others?

Hmmm ...

I would suspect that Shannon Ewing's "Adrenaline Rush" probably raced, based solely on his entry into the dressage ring! (But I'm not sure about that.)

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

KWS
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:26 PM
Pretty much every advanced horse currently competing in NZ...!!! ;-)

AppJumpr08
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:51 PM
I believe Wendy Lewis's Rampent Lion is an OTTB...Livingstone ridden by Hawley Bennett of Canada (top placed Canadian their first time around Rolex this year, on the Pan Am team this fall...)
THose are the only two I can think of, but I'm sure there are many, many more!!!

~Jessica
Personal slave to Newt, Image, and Dina!

Pol
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:28 PM
Mr. Big, and he's tiny too...Just ran at Fair Hill. She said he was too fit and was ready to race again! I think 3 Magic Beans is OT too, no?

QHEventr
Oct. 31, 2003, 03:16 PM
My OTTB is going advanced. I got him 3 months off the track 3 yrs ago and he started advanced this spring. He also ran on the track until he was 6 1/2 so he ran quite a while.

I know of MANY OTTB running advanced....I would actually take a guess that at least haf of the upper level horses ran at some point.
(athough i may be way off)

I may be mistaken, but isn't Rampant Lion of the Lion King line? if so...racing is not an option as Lion King is not registered. (don't shoot me if this is way off) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

eventrider
Oct. 31, 2003, 03:23 PM
Both my advanced and intermediate horses are OTTB's. Adrenaline Rush was owned by a friend of mine before Shannon and I am pretty sure he is not off the track. She bought him going intermediate and then took him intermediate or advanced herself before trading him to Shannon.

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 31, 2003, 04:04 PM
If you subscribe to the print version of the Chronicle, they list every horse that won at prelim or above in their eventing issue. You can take the names & parents shown plus their win record & pretty much (by using Brisnet & Delmar) figure out whether they are OT. At a minimum you can tell whether they are JC registered TBs.

A year or two ago, I went through the issue & was able to identify 100 horses (just 100 out of the whole list of several hundred) that were plainly JC registered. Some others were listed as TBs but the breeding didn't make sense so I didn't include them. Some horses that I know for a fact are registered TBs were listed as some other breed. I didn't include them, either, as they didn't include parents & I wasn't sure of the registered name.

Not all of these horses are running advanced but most of them are probably OT. Of course, many may be running advanced that haven't won & thus didn't appear on the list, either.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

retreadeventer
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:16 PM
Rampant Lion is off the track and was a stakes winner. Also, Salute the Truth has done advanced and he is off the track as well. Hopefully with the new awareness the computer has brought to the racing industry (they now know we riding horse folks actually exist), the new sport horse database thru USEq, and the work of groups like Canter and The Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation, we will soon be able to track our OTTB's a bit better. JMO. It's already better than it was 15 years ago. Hollihorse

Horses will make a fool of you, it's only a matter of when, not if.

PiedPiper
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:29 PM
Full Tilt ridden and owned by Lesley Stevenson was raced for a few years. He just completed Fair Hill and is ready to go again!

Jair
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by QHEventr:

I know of MANY OTTB running advanced....I would actually take a guess that at least haf of the upper level horses ran at some point.
(athough i may be way off)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think your guess would be off, as I've followed the breeding of the top 3-day eventers over the past few years, and many are acutally 3/4 or 7/8 bred. Especially when you consider all the good French team horses out there who are usually Selle Francais (combination of TB, anglo-arab and other SF) or Anglo-arabs. (and TB's too of course)

and the Irish horses very often have ID somewhere in their pedigree! plus many British horses have bits of pony or shire etc.

It would be interesting to see actually stats broken down, but you can get a good idea by going to the World Breeding Federation website to look at the top 100 event horses in the world.

think its www.wbfsh.org (http://www.wbfsh.org)

It could be that DMK's purpose of life is only to annoy...

QHEventr
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:28 PM
I was actually thinking more of the horses running in the states. Like I said....I may be off on that guess, but I do know that there are many more OTTB's running at the upper levels than people may think. It's not just the horses that get published and are the "top" that are running advanced. There are many more upper level horses out there that noone ever hears about.



Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

KWS
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:16 PM
I'd tend to agree with QH eventr, but only on the stats down here in NZ - I have no idea about the US stats.

The CCI** winner at Puhinui last year was a 14.3hh TB who was off the track as a 4yr old. His owner got him for free and tried to flick him on for $1000 straight away but nobody would buy him so she was stuck with him. He very quickly went through to advanced, before winning the 2*. The 3* winner was also an OTTB, who went on to compete at Burghley.

Taupo 2* winner was off the track, although the 3* winner was a home bred TB.

In NZ, of all the TB's eventing at 2* and 3* level, I would guess that 90-95% are OTTB's. There is such a huge surpless of TB's in this country, that it is the most logical (and cheapest) place for event riders to find their next star.

I'm pretty sure Reddy Teddy was off the track too, he was bought by Blyth Taits father for $5000 NZ (about $2500US) off a local pony club family and sent sight unseen to Blyth.

CdnRider
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:51 PM
I am almost positive that Amy Tyron's My Beau is an OTTB.

Hilary
Nov. 1, 2003, 04:53 AM
Kerry Milliken got her horses off the track - Out & About was her most famous. Not exactly a horse the general public could ride, but he sure was a steller **** horse.

Gry2Yng
Nov. 1, 2003, 05:42 AM
Even more than the big names, I can think of several up and coming riders from my area that have done Fair Hill and/or are going around advanced on OTTB's. Four come to mind right away.

Robby Johnson
Nov. 1, 2003, 05:54 AM
Ted was definitely OTT.

The horse that makes my jaw drop, Leigh Smith's "High Cotton," was he OTT too?

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

Code3
Nov. 1, 2003, 06:16 AM
Amy Tryon buys her horses off the track so most, if not all, will be OTTBs. I believe Poggio and Woodstock are also OTTBs.

tecumsea
Nov. 1, 2003, 11:15 AM
Don't forget the great Molokai was off the track. Dorothy's *** horse Red is off the track.

EventerAJ
Nov. 1, 2003, 11:21 AM
"Red" being Radio Flyer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He isn't *currently* running advanced...though hopefully he'll be back there as soon as his bow is 100% healed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~AJ~
I've been there...that's why I'm here.

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 11:24 AM
I'm sure glad that I asked. Thanks everyone. What a wealth of information here and so interesting!
I wasn't even aware that the World Breeding Federation site existed until Jair posted it. It does list very few OTTBs among the top 200 International Event horses...and also very few U.S. riders. The rider with the most OTTBs (on this list)seems to be Phillip Dutton. This ties in with an article where he claims to believe that the training that OTTBs receive as two-year-olds toughens them to a point where they do not break down as easily. (I have read similar articles by race trainers.) Phillip shows that a few OTTBs can make it to that list, however the top European riders are certainly not flocking over here to purchase. In fact, the few U.S. riders on this list don't seem to be using many...but are using New Zealand horses.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 11:31 AM
tecumsea...do you know in what year Molokai was born?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

tecumsea
Nov. 1, 2003, 11:41 AM
I think he was a mid 80's , 84-86. I can't really remember the year. Sad, I should really know that.

tecumsea
Nov. 1, 2003, 11:43 AM
Thanks for the update AJ. I still consider Him an advanced horse. Even with the vacation time.

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 12:19 PM
tecumsa...the reason that I asked is that I found two Molokai on DelMar...one by Hawaii that was foaled in '83 (and whose registered/racing name was Surf Scene) and one by Police Car foaled in '85 (If Molokai was his registered/racing name).

How do you know these horses so well?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

EventerAJ
Nov. 1, 2003, 12:20 PM
Free-- Mo is officially "Surf Scene", by Hawaii. (If you look in his stats, I think his eventing career is listed...I updated it once... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~AJ~
I've been there...that's why I'm here.

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 12:22 PM
Eventer AJ...how do you know him so well?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

EventerAJ
Nov. 1, 2003, 12:44 PM
I've worked for Dorothy for the past 2 years... I'm barn manager/groom/working student extraordinaire. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~AJ~
I've been there...that's why I'm here.

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 01:10 PM
EventerAJ...what an opportunity...and she has always seemed like such a nice person.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 01:22 PM
Evalee Hunter...I refer to your lists of top Event stallions like a bible. Even keep a copy in my purse (actually found out that it is a travel shaving kit that I found amongst our luggage...but it is so tidy and opens so wide that I can find things easily...no digging). I embarress my conventional son terribly...he is the one who asked me why I was carrying a shaving kit. All of the older children and DH have given up on me.

Anyway...back to your lists...thank you so much Evalee.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Evalee Hunter
Nov. 1, 2003, 01:31 PM
to say such nice things.

Now regarding Phillip & OTTBs you need to remember that his backer, Nina Gardner, breeds TBs for the track. I'm fairly sure Michael Matz trains her horses. So Phillip has some close connections that not everyone has to the backside of the track.

Don't mean this in a negative manner--I think (based on observation, not experience, as I have never evented, just rode Western) that there's nothing like an OTTB for eventing. Anyway, when your backer breeds TBs for racing & her trainer is another Olympian, well, it all fits.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 04:05 PM
Evalee...if your background is western...do you mind if I ask how and why you have come to know so much about the Eventing venue? For example...the name of Phillip's backer, the fact that she breeds racehorses and who her trainer is...and his background, is not common knowledge to even most Eventers.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Evalee Hunter
Nov. 1, 2003, 04:25 PM
Daughter, Ali, has been eventing for the last 10 years (maybe 11? years). Plus pony club. Doesn't everyone in the horse world know everyone? Ali was a working student for Phillip in '97 when she was 15. Plus she has trainer friends at Delaware Park. I'm sure you know how it is.

I am a good groom & a careful observer. 50 some years of horse experience (even a different aspect of the sport) teaches you a lot about horses.

Jane Sleeper once told me Ali had the talent to go as far as our pocketbooks could take her. So, I have been studying the breeding of sport TBs with the thought of breeding that elusive Olympic horse.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 04:33 PM
Perhaps everyone else knows everyone...but we are new to Eventing. So where will Ali be Eventing in the near future and who and what is she riding? What have you bred?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

tecumsea
Nov. 1, 2003, 04:50 PM
free; I was a groom for Dorothy for the years 1996-1998?9 I can't remember when I stopped working for her? Mo was from the stallion Hawaii.EventerAJ has answered the question I believe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Evalee Hunter
Nov. 1, 2003, 05:15 PM
We live in Area II, free. She pretty much rides anything she can find to ride & hasn't done a 3 day since 98 because of not having the horse.

The oldest filly we bred is 3 & she has spent the summer laid up with a severe abscess which invaded the coffin bone &, subsequent to taking 190 antibiotic tablets a day plus 2 bute following foot surgery to remove the infected coffin bone area, she colicked. If the hoof finally heals, she may start eventing next summer. She is JC registered as Idiosyncratic Rose (Alae Rouge - Mary's Faith) & will have the show name "Idiosyncracy".

We have a lovely 2 year old, Corporate Seal, barn name Monet, (Corporate Report - Broken Seal).

Also a yearling, As If, (Adamant - Mary's Faith), 1/4 Hanoverian, 3/4 TB.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

FrittSkritt
Nov. 1, 2003, 05:26 PM
Just a question... I remember hearing somewhere that Reddy Teddy was actually given to Blyth Tait after his owner died in a horrible accident or something... is this true?

-KC

**************
"They can make me do it, but they can't make me do it with dignity." -Calvin and Hobbes

Member of the "Vertically Gifted" clique, "I don't wear a GPA and proud of it!" clique, Connecticut clique, and Missed Out On Ponies (MOOP) clique!

Rainy's Page (http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~kchurch/rainy.htm)
Photos! (http://community.webshots.com/user/outatime257)

free
Nov. 1, 2003, 05:58 PM
In an article that I read, it said that Tait's father bought Ready Teddy at a very cheap price from Cherie Going who was selling the horse because she was traveling to Europe. No mention of a tragedy in the article.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

NZ Kaz
Nov. 1, 2003, 06:39 PM
Yip you are correct Free. Taits Dad offered his Pony club owner money for Ready Teddy and sent him over to Blyth. I dont think there was any tragedy involved as i remember reading an article on his former owner.

There is a NZ event horse competing somewhere overseas that i am almost positive was sold or given to someone else to ride after his owner was killed (in a car accident i think??) Cant think of the horses name right now though.

Kaz

Robby Johnson
Nov. 2, 2003, 03:26 AM
The horse Blyth took over riding when his young owner was killed in a car accident was Chesterfield (who died from an aortic rupture days before shipping to Sydney for the Olympics).

Jair, I think your point about "top" horses is well taken, but "top" horses aren't the mass of the sport. Come to Rolex and you will see the dearth of TB's and OTTB's.

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

2869
Nov. 2, 2003, 05:39 AM
Hi: i bought a horse from phila park in 2000 when he was 5. i trained and then showed him up to one training then sold him to a young rider. she has taken him to a couple of one stars, and a two star and also placed at her first advanced w/him. unfortunately on steeple chase at radnor he did a slight tear to his check ligament so is laid up for a couple of months. His name is Mt. Colebrook and the rider is Jen Morse. He is an awesomely talanted horse. I have a great contact at the track that finds me sound, clean legged, sane horses. i have two right now that are both fantastic. One is for sale and the other is 4 and I just got him in July. He is enjoying being barefoot and "fancy free" at the moment but cant wait to get back on him and get going for the spring.

mountain girl
Nov. 2, 2003, 05:45 PM
My experience has been that without having connections, it is hard to find an ottb in the US with the mind, bod, and soundness to to advanced. They just aren't going to let them go while there is still a prayer of them doing anything at the track.

Maybe in NZ, where they must have less venues to race, one has an easier time getting one before they are too used up.

One of my friends bought a really nice 5yo ottb stud sired by Caro and out of a Chieftain mare this summer. She had him vetted but he still came up lame later. Xrays showed arthritis in the stifle.

Of course, many, many of the ottbs are perfectly sound enough for lower level eventing, which is all most riders do anyway, and they smoke the competition.

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

jjsmom
Nov. 2, 2003, 06:05 PM
Hate to disappoint you all, but there are TONS of very nice, very sound OTTBs going to waste. You just have to paw through all the used up ones to get to them. When they aren't performing at the track, they're dumped without any hesitation. Track board is extremely expensive. It's too expensive to keep them and use them up if they're not paying their way. It's easier to just dump them in the meat auctions. My guy was perfectly sound after 4 years of racing, and they sent him to a killer auction. He had the number "100" burned into his rump for nearly a year to prove his close call with a French dinner plate. Now he's moving right up the levels with no limits in sight. Sure lots break down, but lots don't.

QHEventr
Nov. 2, 2003, 06:10 PM
I don't believe that most are "too used up" to do anything but the lower levels. It depends where and who you get a horse from that can decide that. My OTTB is running advanced and he raced until he was 6 1/2. He has yet (knock on wood) to have anything seriously wrong with him soundness wise and has the best brain I've ever seen on a TB. I know that is just one situation, but if you can shop well for a horse then you should be able to weed out any that have or will have any serious problems....mental or physical. Of course, I am partial to the TB so that may have something to do with this ranting! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just my 2 cents

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

NZ Kaz
Nov. 2, 2003, 06:23 PM
We have plenty over here that are "used up" and now the trainers are also catching on to how much Eventers will pay for a sound and sane TB!!

mistyjewell
Nov. 2, 2003, 07:01 PM
jjsmom...

Just wondering what auctions you went to (or know of) and when he best time to go is?

Also, what do you look for? Basically a decently built TB that's pretty sound? What's a major turnoff as far as prior injuries?

Just asking b/c my last TB was 5 off the track, but bowed a tendon when he was 2. I had him for 5 years after that, and never an unsound day from 5-10 from it. But I did more dressage then eventing (now switching) would a sound bow or something be a major no no for an eventer?

~Once you have ridden the tiger it is impossible to dismount~

alleged
Nov. 2, 2003, 07:22 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robby Johnson:

The horse that makes my jaw drop, Leigh Smith's "High Cotton," was he OTT too?


Robby...Leigh Smith's High Cotton was not off the track, but actualy has an amzing story. She was GIVEN him as an UNBROKEN 5 year old that no one could get on. This year, he's only 8 and ran around Rolex**** like cake. Captain Philips has said that he's the horse of a life time. Pretty neat story! She's made him all on her own and he is truly amazing.

[This message was edited by alleged on Nov. 02, 2003 at 10:35 PM.]

juliet
Nov. 2, 2003, 08:07 PM
The deceased grand prix jumper Napur was an off the track thoroughbred. He didn't do eventing but he did alot of other showing and was a very successful jumper. Really nice bloodlines.

girlsnotgrey
Nov. 2, 2003, 09:58 PM
my beau is an ottb (my coach was teh one that bought him off the track) and 3 magic beans is an ex steeplechaser

Maren
Nov. 3, 2003, 01:19 AM
Windfall's dam Wundermädel was an OTTB that entered eventing later in life and won intermediate before being retired at stud.
Her sire was a most accomplished steeplechase sire in Europe.

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

Robby Johnson
Nov. 3, 2003, 03:11 AM
what a fabulous story about High Cotton! He came jumping through the second water at Kentucky this year and my jaw dropped. Amazing horse!

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

jjsmom
Nov. 3, 2003, 03:53 AM
MistyJewel,

I've been lucky enough to find some people in Ocala who have wonderful contacts up and down the east coast, and in the mid-west. My boy raced at Fairmount Park, and came through an auction in Chicago -- I'm not sure which one.

These people have a wonderful eye for soundness and conformation, and they have pre-screened a few OTTBs for me. I've gotten 3 really good ones from these folks, all sound and all very atheletic and good minded. They buy they buy the horses through their "network" and then I pick them up in Ocala. I pay them a bit of a premium, but it's well worth the effort to find good ones. These folks also place a lot of them with the NYPD.

I've paid between $1800 and $2500 for the three I've purchased by the time the middle men get paid, and that's generally about 1/4 of what they're worth in the local market I live in. I think they're a better quality OTTB than the typical "rescues", however. And if one doesn't work out, they'll take it back on trde from me for a different one. So far, they've all worked out for me.

Also, I count more on riding than vetting. I have often "felt" things that didn't show up in a flexion test yet. But most of all, I look at the horse's attitude & eye, plus his conformation. I like lots of bone & good clean legs, good hooves, an uphill build, and I personally find the ones that are too straight behind break down quicker. As far as I know, a truly sound bow would be stronger than the original tendon. But I'm really not the voice of authority. My current boy raced less than 3 weeks before I got him, so I know he retired 100 percent sound. Good luck!

LisaB
Nov. 3, 2003, 06:33 AM
Wasn't Market Venture from a TB farm in San Diego? I think I have the story straight. Also, Kim S.'s Jerry McGerry was off the track though she didn't get him directly from there.

KateDB
Nov. 3, 2003, 08:24 AM
Market Venture was bred in England. I believe sired by a Welton (Crackerjack, I think, but won't swear). I saw Stuart Black's fabulous dressage ride on him at Badminton '98, which gave them the lead.
I believe that several of Kim's rides are off the track....the Tjadens in No. VA regularly sell OTTBs who have become quite successful with them and their subsequent owners/riders.

One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

LisaB
Nov. 3, 2003, 08:46 AM
Ah, nuts! I thought it was Market Venture. There was another horse of Stuart's then. Yes, Kim did have several Tjaden horses. I think her current ones are imports though.
I'm looking forward to seeing some OTTB's that William Coleman was schooling the other day. I don't know the whole story but they were lovely critters.

LisaB
Nov. 3, 2003, 08:48 AM
Sorry forgot to bump this to SteveS. Hello? Isn't Lynn's horse a TB?

Xctrygirl
Nov. 3, 2003, 08:52 AM
OK first off,

Shame on you FREE!!! How could you miss...

Cayman Went I can guarantee he was an Ottb since I broke him at the training track!!!!

Second, Market Venture was an English Tb import. He was not an ottb. Kate is correct I believe he has Welton in him somewhere. And he's a heckofa lot of fun to ride!!


Next: I think this thread is looking a little narrowly at the event horses in the world. The number of horses, of any upbringing, who attain the advanced level is low compared to the number of all horses eventing. And with all the training it takes to get there, I think you bypass a fair amount of the early days influence. I know that Molokai, for example, was a very different horse by the worlds in '94 than he was at the track. Dorothy talked about it in an article back then.

I think if you're trying to determine what shot an OTTB has at success at the advanced level, most of your corellations are gonna be based more on training SINCE the track than what they did on the oval. I don't dispute you could find some comparisons, but still a sound ottb has as much shot as a home bred unraced-tb. On paper at least.

Most horses who show the basic skills needed for eventing (courage, soundness, physical endurance, temperment and scope) will have to go through all the steps on the way through the levels before you can out of hand say "Oh yea this one will go to Rolex" You just don't know. And no matter how many things you check about a prospect (pedigree, soundness of family, vet check, movement) It will still all come down to the bond between horse and rider as they set off on the path TOWARDS Rolex.

~Emily

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"

KateDB
Nov. 3, 2003, 08:54 AM
LisaB, I believe that Irunformillersburg is TB, don't know about off the track, though?!?

One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

AppJumpr08
Nov. 3, 2003, 09:13 AM
KateDB, Irunformillersburg is absolutely an OTTB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif How do you know him? I can't believe I forgot him - I know his current owner! (they run around Prelim now) He's quite the trooper - broke his withers on the track (worst I've ever seen), and did 2 tendons before he finally was retired from running advanced. Lovely boy though - a testament to his breeder - excellent mover, and such a sweetie.

~Jessica
Personal slave to Newt, Image, and Dina!

Arcadien
Nov. 3, 2003, 10:10 AM
Okay, bored at work http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and looked up all the horses mentioned in the Pedigree Query site - the ones I can't find there, I wonder if they have a different J.C. name - any help appreciated. I mean to chart out the first 3-4 generations and look for common lines. promise to post results here!

Here are the missing names:
Full Tilt
Taupo 2
Reddy Teddy
Out & About
Market Venture
Irunformillersburg
Jerry McGerry

(Mind some of these names are in Pedigree Query, but the sex is wrong or they are too old)

Thanks!
Arcadien
(another TB pedigree addict!

LisaB
Nov. 3, 2003, 10:27 AM
I'm sure people changed the horses' names after thier life on the track. I know Jerry McGerry is not the horse's track name.
And I've been racking the pea brain all day to remember what horse it was that came from the tb farm in San Diego. It's the Golden Eagle Farm near Julian. Oh gosh, I hope they are all okay! That's where the one of the fires got started.

mountain girl
Nov. 3, 2003, 11:03 AM
I love the the ottbs and am glad that so many are sound and do so well! I wish I owned one of them, lol! MY ottb evented lower level and she was awesome, but was not sound enough to keep it up and she would have never passed a vet check in the first place, but we have had many wonderful years in sport. Now I have bred her to a tb and have her beautiful baby that is so like her, but, who is yet, uninjured. I am sure that if I lived near a track I would have more ottbs.

Of course, it is a tiny percent of the horses that get to the top, whether homebred tb or ottb or tbx or wb.

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

Kiwi Sporthorses
Nov. 3, 2003, 11:25 AM
In NZ we have a total population of 3.5 million people, 1 million of whom live in Auckland. TB racing is absolutely HUGE down here, and there certainly is not a lack of races - quite the contrary. BUT..we run only on grass, and if the horses don't perform they are thrown out quite quickly as it is cheap enough just to find another racehorse. The cost of keeping racehorses down here is not cheap by local standards, but it definitely is, by international standards. We breed so many TB's that there are a huge abundance of throw away's. Same goes for standardbreds, though they are harder to place and most end up going to slaughter.

Most of the event riders I know will obtain their horses from the track, and most have a regular contact. NZ is like Kentucky...with 3.5 million people. Its not at all difficult to find a good sound horse as they live out most of the time, and are brought up on the hills etc. They are generally not over-raced, and don't tend to have many soundness issues (of course that is a huge generalisation, based soley on my experience!).

Its true that where you used to pick up a very fancy, sane, sound TB for free, or the cost of the transport, trainers are now aware that they can get good money for them..well, by good I mean up to $5000 NZ (about $3000 US) by selling to event riders!!!

So I guess that nearly all the NZTB's competing at any level from prelim up, are off the track at some stage! We're just a bargain hunting nation I guess!!! ;-)

PS..I own one racehorse and 2 young eventers... both the eventers are OTTB's and doing very well at intermediate.

Evalee Hunter
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:41 PM
so I pulled out my pedigrees from Rolex 2002 & here is what I found, including a complete list of the horses entered (alphabetical by name) with a notation after the name designating the REPORTED breed: Thoroughbred (TB); NonThoroughbred (NTB); Thoroughbred cross (TBx); breeding not noted (??).

Rolex 2002

Horses that competed under their registered names & thus can be verified as JC registered:

Cayman Went (Easy Goer – Secret Holdings)

Highland Hogan (Father Hogan – Gameforagame)

Mystic Mike (Babamist – Annwyn)

Power Ty (Private Thoughts – Emily Express)

Speed Axcel (Lucy's Axe – Queen Hi Straight)

Texas Pride (Zuppardo's Prince – Everloving Mama)

Three Magic Beans (Hidden Capital – Express Card)



Number of horses entered: 67

Number of horses that could be identified as JC registered: 7

Number of horses reported as TB: 39

Number of horses reported as TBx: 21

Number of horses reported as non-TB: 6

Breeding not reported: 1

Aberdare TB
Adrenaline Rush TB
Aladdin TBx
All's Fair TB
Apparition TB

Ashmore's Scribble TB
As You Like It TB
Ballymar TBx
Baltic Pride TB
Bonfire TB

Brimstone TB
Capuchin TBx
Carrick NTB
Cayman Went TB
Celtic Cross TB

Chevalier TB
Chumbawumba TBx
Class Touch TBx
Custom Made TBx
Grand Slam TB

Grey Spirit II TBx
GV Top of the Line TB
Hannigan NTB
Hazmat TB
Here To Stay TB

High Scope NTB
Holme Truth ??
Hyde Park Corner TBx
Icon TB
Jaybee TBx

Leaps and Bounds TBx
Lester Piggot TBx
Little Tricky TB
Maker's Mark Westlord TBx
McKinlaigh NTB

Mind the Gap TBx
Mystic Mike TB
Mr. Mullins TBx
Papillion TBx
Poggio II TB

Polaris TB
Power Ty TB
Psalm XXIII TBx
Ready About TB
Regal Scot TB

RG's Renegade TBx
Saucy Brown TBx
Sea Smart TBx
Shear L'Ea NTB
Smooth Sailing TB

Speed Axcel TB
Springleaze Macaroo TBx
Strike a Pose TB
Stunning TB
Tacoma Longshot TB

Tennacity TB
Texas Pride TB
The Native TB
Three Magic Beans TB
Tigger Too TB

Titleist TB
Topspin TB
Truly Noble TBx
Twist and Shout TB
Upstage TB

Winsome Adante TB
Zaszu TB

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Evalee Hunter
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:45 PM
At most, about 1/2 of the horses could be off-track TBs. I did **NOT** count them as registered TBs just because I could verify the parents were TB--after all, they have to be JC registered to race & TB parents does not equal JC registered.

Although I thought OTTBs predominated, it actually appears that the predominant type of horse is the unregistered TB or TB cross.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

free
Nov. 3, 2003, 01:16 PM
WOW...thanks Evalee. Your stat lists make it so easy for the rest of us.
The humerous thing is that you have me programmed so that when looking at pedigrees... the thought "Would Evalee approve?" occurs. The first thing that I look for is ND on top. (Did you read where he passed his talent through his sons and not through his daughters?)

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Hilary
Nov. 3, 2003, 01:18 PM
Nirvana II (Jill whatsername from the Atlanta olympics) was TB and I thought she raced.

AppJumpr08
Nov. 3, 2003, 01:22 PM
Mystic Mike was never raced (maybe that's what you ment, and I'm just misunderstanding you...it happens all the time, so if that's the case, please ignore http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) Both he and Little Tricky (Babamist x Bay Legs)-his half brother- are Chesterland homebreds.
Class Touch was an Irish/TB x, High-Scope was an Irish horse as well.

I also forgot another OTTB to mention earlier - Otto, one of Buck's advanced horses was a track find...way too slow, never won a thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Jessica
Personal slave to Newt, Image, and Dina!

Bensmom
Nov. 3, 2003, 01:44 PM
I'm not sure if Nirvana raced, but I can ask. I've seen her jump with a young girl that was leasing her, and I'll say this -- that horse has an *amazing* jump. Wow.

I know she's TB, but I'll find out if it was OTTB.

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

Evalee Hunter
Nov. 3, 2003, 03:35 PM
I believe Nirvana was off the track. Jill Henneberg (? spelling)

Ap08--Same sire = "brothers in blood" **not** "half" brothers. Same dam = "half" siblings.

Example: We own Broken Seal (Poles Apart - Hail Sarah). Steeplechase champion Tres Touche (Poles Apart - ? I don't know) is Seal's "brother in blood". Colonel Spike (? I don't know - Hail Sarah) is Seal's half brother.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Arcadien
Nov. 3, 2003, 03:35 PM
Okay, proof of how BORED I was at work today http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Take the following impromptu, small sample results as you like:

Based on the 20 OTTB's mentioned, who's pedigrees I could find, here are the duplicated sires in the first 3 generations:

1st Gen (parents):
Babamist (2x) (suprise)

2nd Gen (grandparents):
Mr. Prospector (3x)
Mystic (2x)
Roberto (2x)

3rd Gen (great-grandparents):
Bold Ruler (5x)
Buckpasser (2x)
Damascus (2x)
Flushing (2x)
Hail To Reason (3x)
Never Bend (2x)
Raise A Native (3x)
Relic (4x)
Restless Native (2x)
Vice Regent (2x)

I thought this exercise was interesting, and would like to see it (or do it!) on a larger sample of current advanced TB's. The thing is, we know to look for names like Nasrullah, Nearco, Princequillo, Native Dancer, etc, but those horses are so prolific, it's a rare horse that doesn't have one or more of those names. Also, those names are usually further back in a current pedigree, so one wonders how much influence they can still have. I'm more interested in more current blood, or current hot sources of known event blood. For example, if an eventer is looking at a pedigree wondering, what is the best new source of Native Dancer blood for an advanced event horse? (maybe Restless Native? see above) Or the best new source of Princequillo blood? (Bold Ruler?)

Anyway, hope you find it amusing, and if anyone is interested in the spreadsheet details, I will gladly email the Excel file.

(Then you can tell my boss how worthwhile this effort was! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)
Arcadien

QHEventr
Nov. 3, 2003, 05:28 PM
from the list form rolex 2002.....

Jill Williams "Icon" is an OTTB. He is 17 now and still running advanced...I think he has run rolex 3 times. once as a three star and twice as a four star. He remains sound and loving it!

just one more bit of proof that the OTTB can succeed at upper level eventing!

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

free
Nov. 3, 2003, 05:40 PM
Arcadian...I don't know if I will be able to execute it properly, but I have Excel and would like to try if you will email it.
Thanks so much, free

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

MKM
Nov. 3, 2003, 08:00 PM
I don't know if she raced, but Jill (Henneberg) bought her for like $300 or something like that.

Xctrygirl
Nov. 4, 2003, 06:52 AM
Actually Nirvana II was $800. It was on the cover of a PH issue within the headline.

In any case she was a brilliant mare for the price.

~Emily

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"

Robby Johnson
Nov. 4, 2003, 07:16 AM
If Market Venture was Welton-bred, then he's not an "English TB." He is an English cross-bred.

Robby

So I'm a sistah, buy things with cash
It doesn't mean that all my credit's bad

http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

KateDB
Nov. 4, 2003, 07:19 AM
Robby, yup, and indeed I think 7/8s TB (like Paddy!).

One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

Robby Johnson
Nov. 4, 2003, 07:32 AM
I love Paddy!

So I'm a sistah, buy things with cash
It doesn't mean that all my credit's bad

http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

KateDB
Nov. 4, 2003, 07:39 AM
And he loves you, too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

free
Nov. 4, 2003, 07:49 AM
Robby...we bred one of our mares (frozen) to Welton Ambassador this year and another to Catherston Dazzler. Both mares are full TB. What will the ensuing foals be?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

KateDB
Nov. 4, 2003, 08:07 AM
Welton Ambassador is 7/8s x TB mare = 15/16 TB
Catherston Dazzler 5/8s? x TB mare = 13/16 TB

One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

mountain girl
Nov. 4, 2003, 08:22 AM
There is a thread on the Sporthorse Breeding Board where EBTW posted links listing the three generations of most common breeding for current winning steeplechasers. I consider the conformation and breeding correlation between successful chasers and eventers to be significant, since we are talking about horses running distance on turf and, er, related footing, as well as possessing jumping talent. I spent one day at Saratoga watching the races and found the chasers generally to be superior movers and lookers over the flat horses when thinking of them for sport instead of racing.

The links are on the thread called "why I like a little steeplechase blood in my sporthorses", if anyone is interested.

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

steves
Nov. 4, 2003, 09:11 AM
LisaB asked about my daughter's horse-- No It Tissant. He was off the track ( won 2 races). After the Pan Am ride, my daughter's groom (aka my wife), did everything she could to walk him back to the barn as he was roaring to go again. IF I am not mistaken, he had the fastest time at Fair Hill and that was after my daughter slowed him down toward's the end.

free
Nov. 4, 2003, 09:22 AM
steves...what was his registered (JC) name?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Arcadien
Nov. 4, 2003, 09:24 AM
Steves - does No It Tissant have a different JC registered name? if so, do you know what it is? Thanks!

Arcadien, picking up as many tidbits as she can for the OTTB advanced horse "database"

Arcadien
Nov. 4, 2003, 09:25 AM
LOL, Free, we had that thought spontaneously. Hope the spreadsheet opened for you!
Arcadien

free
Nov. 4, 2003, 11:41 AM
Arcadien...it opened fine...thank you so much.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

steves
Nov. 4, 2003, 11:43 AM
According to my wife and daughter that was his registered throughbred name that he raced under. Am I missing something here since you both responded implying you could not find the name.

free
Nov. 4, 2003, 01:01 PM
steves...if he was born in '92 and was sired by Admiral's flag, then I have found him on Pedgree Online. Thank you...I always like to check pedigrees whenever I can.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Pol
Nov. 4, 2003, 08:12 PM
Hey free, ya wanna check a pedigree for a friend of mine? The horse's name is SALT LICK. A bay colt, foaled 2-27-1978 in Florida. Breeder Leon H. Dotson. Sired by Stand Proud out of Miss Julibel...He had a few starts, didn't do terribly then evented thru Training, I think. I rummaged around for a little while but could only find Salt Lick foaled in 1995. How could there be 2 with such a rotten name?!
Thanks. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LisaB
Nov. 5, 2003, 05:16 AM
Thanks Steve, I thought he was an OTTB. Great name to boot.
I think we need to start a new thread on the worst JC names that were changed. I had a TB named Place Line. Quickly changed it to Narcissus(you know, the mythical creature who was so vain, he was staring at himself in a reflecting pool, fell in and drowned. Fit him perfectly).
Actually, the past 2 OTTB's have had great names. Kirin fits him. And Normandy was born on the 50th anniversary of D-Day. Can't complain.

ponygrl
Nov. 5, 2003, 07:20 AM
Figgy (Notjustacookie) is known by the JC as "Bugler" BLECH!!!! The name sounds much too, I don't know, for my 17hh TB with the "look of chicken hawks" vs the look of eagles. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Plus I was 16, if my horse was going to have a 1 word name it needed to be at least 10 letters http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Laura

free
Nov. 5, 2003, 10:14 AM
Pol...I added to the DelMar database and now his complete pedigree comes up. Just go to DelMar and type in his name.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Pol
Nov. 5, 2003, 11:21 AM
WAAAAY COOL. Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

free
Nov. 5, 2003, 12:15 PM
Our proud horse Miller Time had the registered name of "Karen's Flimsy". How could they have done that?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Bensmom
Nov. 5, 2003, 01:56 PM
Got an answer about Jill Henneberg's Nirvana. She did race, but under a different JC name. Jill bought her for, I think, $600 from someone who had bought her off the track.

Really neat mare. I didn't see her go at the '96 games, but I've seen her jump much lower stuff around here, and she is a dynamite jumper, even all these years later.

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

subk
Nov. 5, 2003, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
Our proud horse Miller Time had the registered name of "Karen's Flimsy". How could they have done that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My first TB was "Leslie's Man." Vomit.

By the way, great thread guys!

jjsmom
Nov. 5, 2003, 02:49 PM
I was once told by an acquaintance who raced horses in claims races that if she liked a horse, she specifically gave it an AWFUL name. That way, it turned off the people likely to claim the animal at the race's end. Don't know how true it is, but I guess there's some whacky kind of logic to it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

QHEventr
Nov. 5, 2003, 04:19 PM
I've got one "Diamondham" here! The poor guys name was the first thing to go when we got him.

But I'll tell you....its gotta be hard naming track horses with all the names that are already taken. I'd probably end up butchering names as well.

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

FlowerPower
Nov. 5, 2003, 07:41 PM
As for the strange TB names, my OTTB mare is out of Scrambled Eggs (and by Aye's Turn). Her racing name was Aye's a Copper Penny, and she raced once and won. But she isn't going Advanced... yet! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I also used to own a OTTB (racing name A Plus, barn name Sable) who's sires name was Dunce (ouch!). He was by Tom Fool. Sable was a Grand Prix Dressage horse wwwwaaaaayyy before I got him. He was fairly elderly by the time he came to me - but what a schoolmaster!

Joshua, one of Stephen Bradley's horses, is an OTTB (I was his groom at the Pan Am Games http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and I actually knew Joshua through the owner before Stephen, who got him from Charlestown WV).

Also the horse I now co-own is a OTTB, although he never raced. I bought him from Phyllis Dawson with whom he ran Advanced many times (and often won). He was 6th or so at Rolex ****, and won a *, ** and a ***. I don't know what his track name was, but I do know his sire's name was Groundbreaker.

******************************
~Chestnut Mare Extraordinaire~

free
Nov. 6, 2003, 05:08 AM
How could have forgotten 'Rattle and Hum'...another horse saved from the killers and then sold to Karen O'Connor. David did really well on him until he was injured. Last I heard he was at their farm recuperating.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

CanAmchick
Nov. 6, 2003, 09:22 AM
Kyle Carter's horse Scotia Goldrush is an OTTB from Washington State. He raced as Goldrush.

frisco1
Nov. 6, 2003, 08:42 PM
Smooth Sailing is on OTTB. He raced as Purgatorio.

ZEBE
Nov. 7, 2003, 06:35 AM
Ok..have to mention (our) mare Brown Betty-- (papers: Melodius Betty) OTTB-started in FLA and moved up to smaller local tracks..didn't do well from the records we have. Anyway, she moved up to ADV. this spring.

Firefox
Nov. 7, 2003, 08:19 AM
What is the link for the DelMar Site?

Cindy
Be sure to always Kick On!

frisco1
Nov. 7, 2003, 02:22 PM
http://www.pedigreequery.com