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deltawave
Aug. 16, 2005, 12:41 PM
Most recent edition of Eventing magazine, page 48. Allow me to quote our fearless leader.

"I know the USEA and some of its members are clinging to the long format. I am sorry to say it, but those people are living in yesteryear and not [sic] the modern sport. Yes, at the lower levels, CCI* and below, it will carry on for a while, for as long as people are prepared to pay for the extra expense of staging it...

...As for those who say, "In my day", I would simply say to them, today you would be a participant, not a competitor at the top level of the sport."

OK, Mr. Chef d'Equipe, it REALLY IS TIME FOR YOU TO GO NOW. You don't represent me OR my sport, you intolerable &#*)@*!. Jimmy Wofford, Denny Emerson, Bruce Davidson (to name a few) are inferior relics, eh? Well, what does that make YOU? A relic several cuts below that level. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I for one am MORE than willing to pay for the preservation of my sport. I'm not, however, willing to pay your freaking salary. I hope to God that that salary is not coming out of MY USEA and USEF dues!

Oh, I am so pissed. I noticed that the column is sponsored by Fleeceworks. No more of their products for me! Can we please get an American coach now, someone who understands the sport in this country???

deltawave
Aug. 16, 2005, 12:41 PM
Most recent edition of Eventing magazine, page 48. Allow me to quote our fearless leader.

"I know the USEA and some of its members are clinging to the long format. I am sorry to say it, but those people are living in yesteryear and not [sic] the modern sport. Yes, at the lower levels, CCI* and below, it will carry on for a while, for as long as people are prepared to pay for the extra expense of staging it...

...As for those who say, "In my day", I would simply say to them, today you would be a participant, not a competitor at the top level of the sport."

OK, Mr. Chef d'Equipe, it REALLY IS TIME FOR YOU TO GO NOW. You don't represent me OR my sport, you intolerable &#*)@*!. Jimmy Wofford, Denny Emerson, Bruce Davidson (to name a few) are inferior relics, eh? Well, what does that make YOU? A relic several cuts below that level. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I for one am MORE than willing to pay for the preservation of my sport. I'm not, however, willing to pay your freaking salary. I hope to God that that salary is not coming out of MY USEA and USEF dues!

Oh, I am so pissed. I noticed that the column is sponsored by Fleeceworks. No more of their products for me! Can we please get an American coach now, someone who understands the sport in this country???

persefne
Aug. 16, 2005, 12:48 PM
I saw that too. To tell you the truth, I was not inclined (when I checked my mailbox at 10:45 last night) to waste my late evening time reading anything he had to say (especially not when THE MAN is featured on the cover, and I flipped immediately to that story). I did see the droll comment that CMP made (listed under Nathalie and West Farthing's picture from Luhumulen) that was along the lines of they-did-an-ok-job-but-the-dressage-can-be-fixed. HUH!?! I just saw Nathalie and West Farthing 2 weeks ago and I could see them coming to the dressage ring a mile away. That is just one gorgeous horse. He's going to have off days, but I would never imagine that their "weakness" was dressage. Of course, I guess if you're an advocate of the short-format (CMP), then dressage is where you've got to win it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ok, just went back and read this and I'm rambling! Suffice it to say that I also wildly call for a new chef (it's not as though the US is short of talented mentors/coaches). Can we stage a protest in New Orleans this year? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LisaB
Aug. 16, 2005, 01:04 PM
If we stage a protest in New Orleans, I'm so there!
There are soooo many qualified talented coaches out in the world. Why do we have to suffer with this egomaniacal narcissistic fool????

blaster
Aug. 16, 2005, 01:09 PM
As with all my USEA mail, I won't even get the glory of reading my magazine for anothe 2 weeks!

subk
Aug. 16, 2005, 01:40 PM
I say we all pressure David O'Connor. He's got enough political clout that if he really wanted the job they'd have to give it to him!

eventable
Aug. 16, 2005, 01:50 PM
You can't have Jimmy. Plans are underway to spirit him away to New Zealand, where he can fish to his heart's content and teach the thirsty younger generation how to drink...er, I mean ride. Between him and BLyth, we'll be unstoppable, mwahahahahahaa.

Sorry guys, just had coffee...

Ellie K
Aug. 16, 2005, 02:24 PM
Too bad David O'Connor is going to be busy training the competition.
David O'Connor Training Canadian Team (http://www.useventing.com/news/2005/oconnor_train_canada.htm)

KnRponies
Aug. 16, 2005, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yes, at the lower levels, CCI* and below, it will carry on for a while, for as long as people are prepared to pay for the extra expense of staging it... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haven't received my issue yet, but I have thought about the expense issue. I have not seen that the short-format events are any less expensive to enter (despite the supposed decreased expense to organizers), if anything, some of the entry fees are higher than last year. So how long will the competitors (especially amateurs like myself) pay to attend a really expensive horse trial? If faced with a choice of attending 2-3 regular events vs. 1 short-format, I would chose to go to regular events. It is the long format that I would be willing to pay the extra money and make the extra sacrifice to go.

RAyers
Aug. 16, 2005, 03:53 PM
KnRponies,

CMP is refering to the costs to the organizers, not the competitors. It is a veiled attempt to justify abandonment of the new format.

Yes, it is VERY expensive to put on a full format 3-day but that is because the FEI rules are so onerous. They require so many paid officials that an organizer can never make money and keep the entry fees down.

Reed

RunForIt
Aug. 16, 2005, 04:48 PM
Deltawave and all who become incensed everytime Mark Phillips opens his insufferable mouth - y'know, one way we can avoid having to deal with him, and at the same time stop at least a bit of his incessant reminders that the long format is a dead subject, LOTS AND LOTS OF US NEED TO WRITE,CALL, EMAIL THE USEA, AND INSIST THAT HE NOT BE GIVEN SO MUCH SPACE TO SPEW AND SPREAD HIS THINKING - AND INFLUENCE! I'm sending off a letter tomorrow; I never get any response to emails from the USEA.

Dale Area 1
Aug. 16, 2005, 04:50 PM
Haven't seen the article, as usual my magazine will come late. Also pissed that I renewed my COTH, they cashed the check a month ago, haven't seen a COTH for 2 months! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Just talking to a friend that stopped by my farm tonght about the new world of eventing. I am just so sick of all this poltical s@#$

I am more than willing to do what we need to do for the adult amatuers. Or better yet, how about the young rider that has no support, money or horse, but has the talent? Gee, don't they deserve a chance? If we have a protest in New Orleans, count me in!

Irish Momma
Aug. 16, 2005, 05:33 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Hell you guys got him - no-one else really wanted him...lol just kidding.. he used to make some sense didnt he? ... not sure anymore

Luckington Lane
Aug. 16, 2005, 05:44 PM
Hear hear Deltawave!

You have hit the CMP nail on the head.

The Canadians need a team coach, don't they? Could we stage a massive fundraiser to pay his salary to coach THEM?

At the very least we could have a bake sale.

persefne
Aug. 16, 2005, 05:48 PM
Yeh, let's raise money to pay him to coach somebody else. I'll make t-shirts that say "IT'S TIME TO SEND THE CAPTAIN OUT TO SEA." Or should that be "...OUT TO CIC"?

Sannois
Aug. 16, 2005, 06:19 PM
OMG!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif When are we going to ditch that man and get a real leader who supports the REAL sport of 3 Day eventing! I cant stand him!!! Where is Denny??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

KellyS
Aug. 16, 2005, 06:24 PM
Blech!!!!

What a horrible representative for our sport! Can you imagine being an ULR and dealing with that attitude in the team coach? No wonder the classic format is being killed off from the top down. Of course, it would be nice to see some of them grow spines and stand up for what they truly believe it (because you can't tell me that they all think this short format is the be all to end all).

How can we make a difference? Any updates from the Classic Format committee?

deltawave
Aug. 16, 2005, 06:25 PM
Ooooh, I love it. T-shirts reading "MUTINY: DOWN WITH THE CAPTAIN!" at the USEA convention! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (where is the evil-grin smiley?)

petit fromage
Aug. 16, 2005, 06:35 PM
Addressing only the question of whether Capt. Phillips should stay on as coach:
Shouldn't that be decided more by team memebers, short or long listed, than by the general membership of USEA?
Also, I would like to swim against the tide here....
I also am very disappointed to see the sport of eventing abolishing the long format. However, I do enjoy reading Capt. Phillips' bold statements of his opinions, whether or not I personally share those opinions. And I do like my Fleeceworks pad.

Scaramouch
Aug. 16, 2005, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deltawave:
Ooooh, I love it. T-shirts reading "MUTINY: DOWN WITH THE CAPTAIN!" at the USEA convention! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (where is the evil-grin smiley?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could always sell dartboards with that slogan and CMP's face........ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

subk
Aug. 16, 2005, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by petit fromage:
Addressing only the question of whether Capt. Phillips should stay on as coach:
Shouldn't that be decided more by team memebers, short or long listed, than by the general membership of USEA? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a former long listed rider, NO. The general membership pays his salary. It is no less or more anyones' sport because of their riding ability. I think the decision should be made by whoever makes it now, BUT I think the wishes of the membership are vital to the decision.

Hannahsmom
Aug. 16, 2005, 06:55 PM
Yes, I think it's time for new blood. He's been in there longer than most American CEO's!

riverpup
Aug. 16, 2005, 07:13 PM
How 'bout a dunking booth wtih CMP in it at the Convention? I'd pay to see him fall!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

RegentLion
Aug. 16, 2005, 09:02 PM
Okay I don't know much about WHO says WHAT...

But I imagine that since there is constant talk about how BN and N and T are the levels feeding the upper levels, and most of our riders are at the BN thru T levels....

Aren't most of us dreaming to become ULRs with a full format? What more do we have to look forward to?

At least if we didn't have to listen to this "Accept the facts, folks" BS from the higher-ups we could still dream and work hard to achieve the chance to do the 'chase... regardless if it would ever be within the range of our ability.

So I say that CMP and anyone else spewing this garbage is just pounding the nails in people's dreams. Blech.

Meredith Clark
Aug. 16, 2005, 10:32 PM
I def. beleive that its the lower levels supporting the upper levels. From what I took in from working at Fair Hill International, the horse trials (elem-novice) and schoolings (open to anyone) are what bring in the money. With out these events there's no way they'd be able to do the International event in the fall. SO like i've said...if they don't want us we'll stop...but then so will their events....

rusti
Aug. 16, 2005, 10:37 PM
regarding only the coaching aspect, since each phase of eventing is becoming more competitive and more demanding why not get the very best coach/trainer for each phase.
Chose a successful trainer from grand prix dressage and showjumping to handle those phases and then go out and get the very best cross country rider/trainer/teacher our sport has to offer to show the next generation just how cross country is supposed to be ridden. By that I don't mean the biggest winner, who usually comes with a string of uber expensive horses, but someone who can train all types and knows what each horse needs to be successful and get around a big four star course in good form. I'm pretty sure with that requirement in the job discription the only place you'll find a qualified applicant will be those old school riders CMP was so quick to dismiss. Denny,Jimmy,Bruce, and Ralph come to mind. Would CMP's even make the long list? I'm thinking NOT.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Aug. 17, 2005, 03:58 AM
delta - re: thread title - isn't that redundant?? sigh

Anyone else catch the sentence of p.50 "It is amazing what graft [my emphasis], dedication, and effort can achieve." ?? I'm guessing this is a typo?!

Rusti - I'm guessing Denny and Jimmy are too smart to want the job. Can't speak for Bruce or Ralph, but sure would be great to see any of them have a go at it. I'm sure it's possible to train to win at the current format without destroying the base of support for real eventing.
Do they even call day 2 "endurance day" or "speed and endurance day" anymore??

RunForIt
Aug. 17, 2005, 04:12 AM
Y'all the discussion and exchange of ideas on this forum is marvelous, often breath-taking, but if any of you want to DO something to actually initiate a change in the USEA's(of which we pay dues and therefore COUNT, despite CMP's notions),support of CMP as coach of our teams, then WRITE the USEA, tell them WHY you are not happy AT ALL with the current coach and counsel them that you are willing to withdraw your support (dues) if they continue to support this man who so often summarily dismisses the people who are responsible for him having a job!
Lynda

Sannois
Aug. 17, 2005, 04:32 AM
You are absolutely correct Runfor it! although its great to have such passion about the sport we all love, Action speaks louder than words. I am going to send them a letter, I did not join this season, I was not competing right now but would have still supported the organization had I felt they supported the grass roots and the backbone of this sport in the US! The Lower Level riders!

piaffeprincess98
Aug. 17, 2005, 05:00 AM
Does anyone notice how at first CMP said that the long format was ok for CCI** and CCI*, but now he thinks they don't need the long format at the CCI** level either? In 6 months, I bet he'll say we don't need it at the CCI* level either. And I also noticed he never utters a bad word about Kim. I realize she's a great rider and all, but I just noticed that.

gahawkeye
Aug. 17, 2005, 05:01 AM
Just another little piece of information on our governing bodies support to the general membership -- The new Florida Horse Park has announced that they will offer CCI**/* in 2006 at the "short format" -- now I thought all **/* were encouraged to run at the long format to give the AA/YR and young horses the experience at speed, etc?

What happened? Could be a scheduling issue?? Could be FEI qualification requirements??? But on the surface it appears that the governing bodies (USEA/USEF) are not supporting the desires of the general membership as promised. I have voiced my concern with this to the Area III chariman and she has forwarded to appropriate committee members. I encourage others to do the same...
Unless of course, we don't really want the long format **/*.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Aug. 17, 2005, 05:21 AM
Who, organizationally, is in charge of supporting/selecting/replacing coaches??

I have to think it's a USEF division, not a USEA one.

Writing USEA and USEF and being vocal are all excellent things, but from what I see USEA has shown strong support for grassroots members and our desires and needs. Shooting them to get at Mr Phillips is probably not the most effective action...

Equibrit
Aug. 17, 2005, 05:29 AM
"graft" means WORK.

denny
Aug. 17, 2005, 05:29 AM
I just talked with Jimmy Wofford, and he confirmed that in this day and age, I would be useless, and I replied that in this day and age, HE would be useless, so that confirms the accuracy of "The Captain`s" assessment.

deltawave
Aug. 17, 2005, 05:41 AM
Well, in the US "graft" means bribery, on the take, etc. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

LisaB
Aug. 17, 2005, 05:57 AM
Denny, what the heck are you talking about???? Are you going nuts in your old age? You 2 are the best.
Okay, is there some official way we can make a forum at the convention and do some kind of vote or something for a new coach? I don't want to mutiny the USEA. I think if our voice was heard, they would have to listen.
Canterlope, what are our options here?
(Besides us taking pics of Papa Smurf in the buff http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif )

Luckington Lane
Aug. 17, 2005, 05:59 AM
Our (the 3 day supporters) energy seems like it would be best spent supporting the */** - even the 1/2*, like the fabulous one run just recently at GMHA in Vermont. (http://www.gmhainc.org for info)

How to do this? Probably the same as we have all heard before: volunteer, contribute, etc. But posters on this Board are wiley creatures, and will surely come up with even more concrete plans and ideas. Let the brainstorming continue!

I would like to thank Karen O'Connor for her vocal support of the *, as published in the Chronicle article on Wayne HT (7/29/05). In her opinion, the steeplechase helped A Phar Cry learn to jump out of rhythm. I do believe she knows what she is talking about, and I respect her for voicing her opinion so strongly and so publicly.

As for finding a new Coach... does anyone know who EXACTLY is in charge of finding the new coach? I hope it is not a political, who-you-know selection process in which the final decision maker is unaccountable to the membership body he or she - or they - represent.

We need to know who is responsible - USEA or USEF - so that we can compose and post a letter, for everyone to download off of the BB, to fire off to said person or people in support of the movement to find a new coach.

Writing/composing the letter will require a bit of coordination, but nothing like what the Save the 3 Day Campaign came up with! And they were instrumental in demonstrating to the USEA that it needed to come out in support of the 3 day - which it did, by creating a Task Force headed by Kevin Baumgardner.

First: We Need Names!!!

Anyone?

bambam
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by denny:
I just talked with Jimmy Wofford, and he confirmed that in this day and age, I would be useless, and I replied that in this day and age, HE would be useless, so that confirms the accuracy of "The Captain`s" assessment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Thank you for the laugh - almost lost my morning coffee reading that one
As for CMP- I will be first in line for a "send the Captain out to sea" t-shirt and protests in New Orleans http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
Unfortunately- I don't think we are going to be able to get rid of him in the near future. It does not feel like the ones who make decision give a rat's a** what the smurfs think about who the coach is and the team is doing well internationally http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

tle
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:24 AM
First, does anyone know how long CMP's contract is??? I have a feeling we will have to suffer through his egotism a while longer due to the contract (I thought 2006 but he might be on board through 08).

re: negatives (or the lack there of) regarding Kim -- I can't remember who it was that told me but they overheard a conversation he had at Rolex where he said there were really only 2 "riders" in the US. Kim was one of them. Do you doubt now why he doesn't utter a negative word about her? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I used to be a CMP supporter. I rode in a couple clinics with him and have chatted with him many times. However, I'm over it all... all the hype, all the history, all of it. Stick a fork in me... I'm done.

PS. Denny... you crack me up! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Janet
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Meredith Clark:
I def. beleive that its the lower levels supporting the upper levels. From what I took in from working at Fair Hill International, the horse trials (elem-novice) and schoolings (open to anyone) are what bring in the money. With out these events there's no way they'd be able to do the International event in the fall. SO like i've said...if they don't want us we'll stop...but then so will their events.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, the REASON Fair Hill International ran as a short format in 2004 was because -

NOT ENOUGH RIDERS entered the long format (I heard numbers ranging from 6 to 16).

It doesn't matter how much pressure the rest of us put on the ORGANIZERS. They can;t MAKE the riders enter.

The place to apply either the carrot or the stick is the owners and riders.

Janet
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:49 AM
Organizations.

First, the USEA is the biggest force working to PRESERVE the full format. Just because they print a magazine article in which someone bashes them doesn't mean they agree with him.

If you want to preserve the full format you should be SUPPORTING the USEA, not bashing it.

Second, I can't swear to it, but I am pretty sure that the coach's salary is paid for by USEF (NOT USEA). Everyone competing at Prelim and above has to be a USEF member, and some of the lower level competitors are members. But the bulk of the BN, N and T riders are NOT USEF memebers, and are therefore NOT contributing to his salary.

Third, he is paid to be the coach for the International teams. It is not his job, in any way shape or form, to set the direction for eventing in the US. He is expressing opinions on that on his own time. It is HIS opinion- not the opinion of the USEF or the USEA. In the land of "free speech", he is entitled to his opinion.

So, in my mind, when it comes down to ORGANIZATIONAL responsibility, the question is- is the USEA magazine showing good judgement in poblishing his editorial? On balance, I think it probably is. First, I am against censorship. Second I think it helps to keep the subject out in the open and in discussion.

Gnep
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:53 AM
What a surprise, ladida.

I found even more interesting what he had to say about course design. A designer that designs a near to unjumpebal watercomplex should have his or hers licens pulled. A designer that is still learning at the 3 or 4 star level, gets people killed and that is realy bad for the sport.

Why has the AEC no long format??
Training,1 star, 2 star and maybe 3 star ?

secretariat
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:03 AM
I believe that Janet is correct in terms of organization of the sport:

USEF/USET are responsible for the international level of competition. USET probably hires the chef. International High Performance membership is required for competition at the international level. USEF is the national horse organization recognized to deal with the FEI.

USEA is the sport advocate in the US. I believe the USEA supports and understands that 90+% of our members are NOT IHP competitors. If you don't like what the USEA is doing, let'em know!!

USEA is publically and formally in support of the classic 3-day event. Contact Kevin Baumgardner if you want to help. The USEA is NOT in control of everything that goes on, however -- as in much of life, what you get is negotiated and a consensus, if you're lucky enough not to be dictated to.

persefne
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:06 AM
Janet, always the voice of calm, honest reflection and REASON (of which some of us, on this topic, lose sight of...understandably so). You make good points about not bashing the organizations, but I think if we muddle through this, it's almost a question of "the chicken, or the egg?"

1. CMP is the chef for our international team (regardless of who hires him/fires him/pays him, etc.).

2. CMP does not support the classic format of the 3-day event at the 3*/4* level (and now, possibly?, any * level...other than 1/2*).

3. CMP has some say in who rides on these chosen international eventing teams.

4. Our ULRs desperately want to represent our country on these teams at international competitions.

5. Event organizers can only run the competitions that the riders will enter.

6. The riders, in order to make the international team (which is their goal...we certainly can't condemn them for it), have to enter the competitions where they feel they will have the best chance of making/qualifying for those international teams.

7. The ULRs, in bending to CMP's wishes, enter the Olympic format events, in order to have the chance to qualify for selection for international teams, thus any organizers wishing to run classic formats are out of luck.

8. Someone hires and renews the contract on CMP. Whether it be USEF or USEA.

9. The lower-level riders (us, for the most part) are the bulk of these organizations, make up their vast membership in order to compete ourselves, support their events/clinics/functions, and further their cause with our involvement in this sport.

10. We are the legs behind the success of the USEA and the USEF, who (presumably) pay CMP to chef our international teams, which directly influences the ULRs wanting to ride on those teams, which affects the competitions offered/run in the US, which affects eventing in the US, which directly affects EVENTERS in the US (not just the ULRs).

So, my question is, where do we start? I'm against censorship, too, but someone is fostering a voice that is elitist, exclusive, and has a heck of a lot of power (see my reasoning above) when it comes to what is happening to eventing in our country. And, what about the young riders? They are like the redheaded stepchildren in all this. Of course, did anyone see Jessica Pye's comment in the latest (Eventing issue) COTH? She mentioned that she was glad that the NAYRC was a short format **, since she would not have competed otherwise...Rebecca Brown agreed, but Ashley Bailey-Classen was more supportive of the traditional format (or, rather, didn't really comment on the issue).

deltawave
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:14 AM
Gnep, the AEC is in its infancy. The idea of having CCIs at that venue has been tossed around, but is not yet ready to go forward, I don't think. I think it would be GREAT to have at least one long-format CCI at the AEC, be it Training, Prelim or whatever. Just think of all the volunteers that would be there already! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Of course I realize that Mark Phillips is editorializing and he is certainly entitled to his opinion. I just think his unique position as Chef makes his opinion somehow carry more weight in terms of the direction of the sport, when in reality it is none of his concern as to what us non-elite riders do. Other than the fact that we do indeed pay his salary. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif His editorializing also smacks of a superiority that I personally just do NOT recognize. He ain't MY coach and I've always rooted for the Canadian team anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Go Jimmy! Go David! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

flyingchange
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:17 AM
every two months or so I get the Eventing mag and I quite enjoy reading all the articles and feel quite good about eventing in general and then I turn the page and see CMP's article and get depressed.

To his line of thinking, medals are the be- and end-all to the sport of eventing, no matter what it takes. Is this the way our "top" international riders also think? I was amazed at his comment that "The underhorsed riders need to campaign for more funding for better horses. Those that have super horses need to work even harder on their shortcomings. It is amazing what graft, dedication, and effort can achieve."

OK, so what I infer he is saying is that our ULRs aren't paying enough money for their horses... I haven't seen the price tags on all of the team or "talent squad's" horses, but I would venture to say that a few pretty pennies were shelled out for them. But regardless, as Annie Jones The Foreman has shown, it is not necessary to go to Europe or wherever and spend gobs and gobs of cash to find high caliber horses. Good lord, I would venture to say we could do it without going abroad at all - we have plenty of excellent horses with the bloodlines, heart, scope, talent to go all the way right here in our own backyards.

And the last 2 sentences here just really get me. We all know and are amazed by the dedication that our ULRs have to their goals, horses, teams ... getting up at crack of dawn, working all day, no matter the weather, teaching, riding, traveling, managing. What the hell more could they be doing to get to their goals?

Finally, I am just flabbergasted by his comment about so-called "In my day" riders. He really must not give a shit what anybody in the US thinks of him.

Please, we can do better than this!!! Get this dense fool out of here!!!!!

And really, I wish we in this country had the self-confidence to say eff-it, we are doing 3-days the way they were meant to be - anybody whow wants to win a real *, **, ***, and **** will have to cross the lake and come to the US to show their and their horses mettle. Call it the North American Four Star Three Day Event Championships.

frugalannie
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:32 AM
Just my two cents after reading this thread:

I completely disagree with Denny and Jimmy's assessment of themselves. (Sorry, bad grammar, but you know what I mean.) They have more knowledge in the tips of their toes than most mortals, and are exceptionally able in transmitting that information. We should only be so lucky...

There is clearly a great deal of negative sentiment about CMP, and he seems to be working hard to foster more. I second Janet on believing that Eventing should publish his opinions, even when unpopular. And we have to remember that they have been featuring many articles supporting the long format.

So it seems to me that the next logical step is for the many articulate writers on this thread to send letters to the editor of Eventing. These can then be published to offset CMP's comments.

OK, with inflation and rising gas prices, that may only have been worth 1 1/2 cents.

tle
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:33 AM
There is no full format division at AEC this year because there was not enough time to pull one together when the idea was presented. It does have support to happen, just not this year... remember it's only the 2nd year of AEC and working out the initial kinks has to be a priority before pulling off something like a 1/2 or higher 3-day.

Janet
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:37 AM
On this compeltely different subject (full format at AEC), I wonder about the lead time. If you knew 6 months in advance that you were qualified, maybe. But it would completely change how you arranged your fall season, AND your conditionsin program over the summer. If you qualified near the end of the qualifying period, it would be too late to prep for a CCI.

tle
Aug. 17, 2005, 08:02 AM
Which along with not enough prep time for the organizer end of things, makes sense as to why it isn't running that way this year. Good observation.

Hannahsmom
Aug. 17, 2005, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by denny:
I just talked with Jimmy Wofford, and he confirmed that in this day and age, I would be useless, and I replied that in this day and age, HE would be useless, so that confirms the accuracy of "The Captain`s" assessment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But isn't the "captain" of the same day and age as above? And maybe quit competing even earlier than the above? So maybe the team needs some new leadership, some with more recent relevant experience on what it takes to compete and win in the new format???

Oh, and I am a USEF member so my dues do pay for the coach.

wanderlust
Aug. 17, 2005, 08:51 AM
Just as an aside to whomever stated that "the Team is doing well." I would have to disagree. Kim Severson is doing well. Darren and Windfall do well occasionally when Windfall is sound and on his game. The rest of the "Team" members can put in a placing somewhere in the top 30 or so at an international competition. Which, IMHO, is not a stellar showing.

I don't harbor any delusions that the Team as an aggregate is better than Great Britain, Germany or France's teams. We have a super-star. They have more super-stars, and they also have very consistent top performers. So in that sense, CMP is right about not having fancy-enough horses- a "Poggio" or "Antigua" type-horse just ain't gonna cut it against any of the horses on Britain, France or Germany's teams.

AllyCat
Aug. 17, 2005, 09:23 AM
And what was his comment about some of us are just "contributers" and not top level riders? I can't remember the exact quote without the magazine in front of me, but I get the feeling he just thinks we are all underlings and not worth his time.

Well, guess what Mr. Chef, WE KEEP the sport RUNNING so you can coach your ULRs. So you better just watch your mouth.

colliemom
Aug. 17, 2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">now I thought all **/* were encouraged to run at the long format to give the AA/YR and young horses the experience at speed, etc? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Simple. We were being suckered and placated.

Magnolia
Aug. 17, 2005, 10:08 AM
I actually kind of get what he is saying - we need to get the right riders the right horses and support them so they can focus on being international competitors instead of dealing with a barn full of students/regular job/barn full of training horses etc. etc. They kind of deal with the same issues with show jumping, but have done a great job of choosing excellent riders with excellent horses and tapping them to concentrate on an International level, which is going great!

But all of that takes money from sponsors and lots of those sponsors ride at lower levels, travel to Rolex to ooooo and aaaaahhhh at the horses and have tons of respect for the "old timers". Of course,he, as well as a good many of his top riders have tactlessly managed to insult these hands that can feed them the key to success for the new format - money. So, while he may be a grand trainer of horses and riders, he's a god awful spokesperson for gathering the money and support necessary to put a team together in todays environment.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Aug. 17, 2005, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by denny:
I just talked with Jimmy Wofford, and he confirmed that in this day and age, I would be useless, and I replied that in this day and age, HE would be useless, so that confirms the accuracy of "The Captain`s" assessment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Count me seriously intrigued - what qualities do you each lack, besides possibly the necessary masochism? "Useless" is a pretty strong assessment...

persefne
Aug. 17, 2005, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Magnolia:
I actually kind of get what he is saying - we need to get the right riders the right horses and support them so they can focus on being international competitors instead of dealing with a barn full of students/regular job/barn full of training horses etc. etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I want to make sure you have this right. You're saying that we should pull "elite" ULRs to only compete internationally, not teach/train/educate lower level riders as well? Who out there is capable of this? I think whomever it is would have to be incredibly independently wealthy or have amazing owners.

With that being said, don't we pretty much agree that Pippa, WF-P, Mary King, Leslie Law, the Hoys, Andrew Nicholson, etc. are amazingly talented international riders and prime competitors of the US riders? Which ones of them do not have students or do not train horses outside of their competing? None. That's their livelihoods and their passion. I'm curious to see how you think that excluding some riders from any domestic or lower-level involvement will make our international riders/teams stronger or better. I'm not being snippy here, it just seems strange, to me!

LisaB
Aug. 17, 2005, 10:37 AM
I think what he's trying to say is that we throw our money at just a few folks he deems acceptable ULR's and get nothing in return! Okay, now he's a communist pig.

Lisa Cook
Aug. 17, 2005, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Magnolia:
I actually kind of get what he is saying - we need to get the right riders the right horses and support them so they can focus on being international competitors instead of dealing with a barn full of students/regular job/barn full of training horses etc. etc. They kind of deal with the same issues with show jumping, but have done a great job of choosing excellent riders with excellent horses and tapping them to concentrate on an International level, which is going great! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't compare the show jumping professionals to the eventing ones. The show jumping professionals live on the road, attending shows whose duration are measured in terms of *weeks* (months in some cases), and when they are at shows they have a gabillion students to coach and shepherd along, and it doesn't leave them time to focus on their own riding & horses like the European show jumpers.

The eventing professionals just don't lead that same lifestyle. Travel - yes, students - yes but not nearly like the show jumpers, IMHO. Apples & oranges.

Blugal
Aug. 17, 2005, 10:57 AM
Actually, Pippa is well-known for not doing much teaching. She has no regular students. She recognizes that her strength lies more in training and riding than in teaching. The horses she trains are almost all owned by others, and for the most part, they are there to compete, not to be sold.

Magnolia
Aug. 17, 2005, 11:10 AM
I don't think you need to say, "No, you can't teach ever again!", but yes, wouldn't it be nice if we could identify 6 or so "riders" and set them up so that they can focus entirely on preparing to compete at the highest of levels. Take Amy Tryon - why not have money available so that in an Olympic year she could not have to worry about working?

I realize that at Rolex the riders aren't running after their novice students and schooling their young prospects. But I'm sure some of our top riders have jam packed schedules in between big shows to help pay their bills and that the time they spend getting paid to train that amateur, they could be working on themselves.

persefne
Aug. 17, 2005, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blugal:
Actually, Pippa is well-known for not doing much teaching. She has no regular students. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, she doesn't exclude herself from the majority of the riding public, just to be an international competitor. She does a lot for pony club and she and her husband do the clinic/forum circuit (The Funnell Factor) and she travels here to the US for clinics and educational sessions, as well. I don't think that's the same thing as just keeping to herself and not contributing to the eventing community, on the whole. She does her fair share of public and private committments that keep her connected.

Gnep
Aug. 17, 2005, 11:41 AM
quote:
now I thought all **/* were encouraged to run at the long format to give the AA/YR and young horses the experience at speed, etc?

You give the dogs bones to chew on and they quit yelping.

AEC and 3 Days, I believe it when I see it, it will never happen, because in 2 years there will be none left.

Even if USEA and USEqu. voice their support for the 3Day, both are not standing behind it. Words are so cheap and theirs are hollow on top of it.

tle what are you so upset about, remember when I told you and cantelope that you guys have to work on keeping the 2 star and 1 star. and set the goal to develop a wide base of 1 and 2 star 3D riders .....................
Ooh ya 1 and 2 star are save no need to bother.

FlyingChange well come to the Club of Foulmouthes.
LisaB, communist pig is not as bad as "don't give a shit" but it gets you in the club to.

LE
Aug. 17, 2005, 11:54 AM
Wow--this was a very interesting read! Not having access to the magazine in question, I was happy to read your views.

Can ANYONE tell me why there is a British eventer as a Chef d'equpe for US, and now we have a US eventer training the Canadians? I don't understand? Wouldn't the US want to keep DAvid O'conner and have HIM train the US team? What about Mark Todd?? What's he up to these days?(I wasn't able to read all the pgs...sorry)

To play devil's advocate, do you think Mark Phillips was simply saying that it is better to accept the shorter version of eventing, rather than risk losing the sport all-together?

I'm still totally pissed that it was the Beijing Games that started this all---they wanted to oust the Eventing due to limitation on land, and this some how set the ball in motion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif it's simple...if you CAN"T host ALL sports in the Games, DON"T BID!!

Just a little sore spot with me.
That and the piss-poor, shitty coverage we get in Canada of ANY of the equestrian events, unless there is a CAnadian in the running for a medal http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I love ALL event riders and enjoy watching them.

tle
Aug. 17, 2005, 12:01 PM
Gnep, if you insist on making pointed remarks to people instead of about the issue, please go crawl back into your hole. I see canterlope doing a lot and I know I've still been active as well. Can't say the same for you. If you want to give up, that's fine, but stop with the nasty comments. That includes to flyingchange and LisaB... no one voted you dictator of the board.

sassparella
Aug. 17, 2005, 12:09 PM
THANK YOU Captain for stoking the fire...

Mariequi
Aug. 17, 2005, 12:19 PM
Sorry, Denny. You and Jimmy are hardly double negatives and can't cancel one another out! How about co-chefs?

Anybody talking to Jim Wolf about this? What's his take as USEF (and still very much USET) big guy?

Hilary
Aug. 17, 2005, 12:29 PM
I don't know when this stopped, but when I was a kid in the 1970's "the team" lived in Hamilton MA, and rode horses owned by the team (some may have had their own). They didn't train other people but were there being trained by Jack LeGoff (and others). Is that what he wants to re-create?

But that was disbanded for many reasons, financial being one of them, likely, and elitism being another. If you weren't picked to ride in Hamilton, you weren't picked. Upper level riding was far less open to anyone than it is now. But of course this system created the resources we now have in Denny, Bruce and Jimmy etc. So it sure had it's merits.

I was about 10, then, so if I mis-remembered, don't kill me.

flutie1
Aug. 17, 2005, 12:43 PM
"The Event will be the last ever Horse Trials in the world to incorporate Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase phases, which have traditionally been run prior to competitors embarking on the Cross Country phase. The passing of this format into Eventing history is a significant moment for competitors and traditionalists. Held in some of the most beautiful areas of Burghley's parkland, these phases have offered spectators moments of serenity and a chance to enjoy the competition surrounded by acres of Capability Brown's perfected scenery."

From the Burghley E newsletter. Words fail me.

Flutie

tle
Aug. 17, 2005, 01:19 PM
Well, I just wrote a letter to the burghley folks (both the info address and the public relations address) requesting a correction be printed as I can name at least 3 events that run counter to their public claim of being "the last." Might as well try to keep them honest... maybe it will work for them, as it certainly didn't based on some of Luhmuhlen's comments earlier this year. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Mariequi
Aug. 17, 2005, 01:46 PM
Katie - there are no words... Holy (fill in the blank).

Gry2Yng
Aug. 17, 2005, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LisaB:
Denny, what the heck are you talking about???? Are you going nuts in your old age? You 2 are the best.
Okay, is there some official way we can make a forum at the convention and do some kind of vote or something for a new coach? I don't want to mutiny the USEA. I think if our voice was heard, they would have to listen.
Canterlope, what are our options here?
(Besides us taking pics of Papa Smurf in the buff http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe Denny and Jimmy are being witty and sarcastic. Picture Denny calling Jimmy and saying "Hey Jimmy, I just read in Eventing USA that according to CMP you are useless in this day and age." and Jimmy replying "Quite True Denny. I read the same about you."

eventable
Aug. 17, 2005, 02:15 PM
Denny and Jimmy - I loff the pair of you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LE - Mark Todd is training racehorses and doing some teaching in New Zealand. He also has been working on his own line of equestrian wear and horse rugs etc. Blyth is now involved in the NZ high performance squad and is coaching as well as training racehorses.

QHEventr
Aug. 17, 2005, 02:26 PM
Hi all-

I've been off and on the board for the last year due to injury to my advanced horse. Last spring He popped a splint during the Rocking horse adv, 8 weeks out from Foxhall. Lovely! Ok, so we pass on foxhall...Fairhill CCI*** here we come! That put us right on track for Rolex 2005, what turned out to be the last three day at the **** level we'll see here. When he was still ouchy come end of summer, the realization came that Neither Fairhill nor Rolex would happen. I was fine with the fact that our **** debut would be put off another year. They're horses...S*@# happens. But as I was sitting at Rolex this April knowing that it wouldn't be complete again, I really wanted to cry. I can't put into words how much I love three days...everything...the prep, the long hours, staying at the barn till they kick you out after XC, and getting back there 4 hours later to get them ready for the jog, just to get pulled down the jog lane by them cause all they want to do is get back out on XC. It can't be put into words. People complain that the ULR's dont have backbones enough to stand up for our sport. Maybe they arn't looking to the right riders. I wanted so badly to know the feeling of running the chase and worrying about missing a flag on R&T, and turning toward the head of the lake with my stomach in my throat. I won't get that chance. I have sat with Blythe Tait and told him all of this, I have bought the shirts, I have my ST3D patch signed by Bruce and will tell anyone else that will listen. Is that enough backbone?

Johanna

cyberbay
Aug. 17, 2005, 02:28 PM
You know, Mark Phillips is sure given a lot of power and credit by the lower-level eventing community, based on the reaction he seems to elicit, when in fact, in his real, tangible roles, he doesn't have such clout. So, if you don't like what he has to say, stop dissipating your energy by giving him so much credit for his opinions (since he technically doesn't have a vote). Instead, ignore him and stay focussed on restoring the 3de format, if that's what matters to you.

But, for sure, he does make for an interesting b/c you can't help noticing what a great gossip writer he is. That seems to be the gist of his attraction when in print.

I think it's just weird that the president of our national federation is TRAINING riders of a FOREIGN COUNTRY--our COMPETITORS. I know he needs to make a living, but there should be some sort of no-compete clause, somewhere, shouldn't there be? As far as I can see, D O'C is no one to turn to when it comes to doing the right thing, His style is to be politically expedient, and he's done nothing but call the format change "keeping up with the times."

AllyCat
Aug. 17, 2005, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LE:

To play devil's advocate, do you think Mark Phillips was simply saying that it is better to accept the shorter version of eventing, rather than risk losing the sport all-together?

I'm still totally pissed that it was the Beijing Games that started this all---they wanted to oust the Eventing due to limitation on land, and this some how set the ball in motion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif it's simple...if you CAN"T host ALL sports in the Games, DON"T BID!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LE--No, CMP wasn't trying to say that. He spent 3 pages x 20,000 issues of the magazine (adding up to many, many trees and toxic ink) basically insulting those of us at the lower level and then grinding it in on those of us who support the REAL CCI format, not the CIC they are passing off as ***/**** events.

The nastiest quote in my book: "As for those who say, 'in my day,' I would simply say to them, today you would be a participant, not a competitor at the top level of the sport". Yes, here is a man who basically only cares about those he thinks can compete internationally and all of us who have been at it awhile are mud.

Mark Todd? Oh, he'd be great, wouldn't he?!

Beijing? Yah. Someone else on the thread mentioned something about communist pigs...that applies here too. I'm completely boycotting the Beijing games. What on earth will they do if a horse gets hurt and needs hospitalization? I wouldn't risk a great **** mount in a country with non-existent/substandard veterinary facilities.

BarbB
Aug. 17, 2005, 02:39 PM
I go along with the 'time for a change' trend this is taking. And that applies to CMP and not the 3-day event.

But I won't give up my Fleeceworks. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

eventable
Aug. 17, 2005, 02:40 PM
Y'all can't have Mark. He's ours.

Alleycat - equestrian is not being held in mainland China for Beijing - it is being held in Hong Kong, which has a very strong racing industry, so I would expect there to be very good veterinary facilities there.

dianad
Aug. 17, 2005, 03:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flutie1:
"The Event will be the last ever Horse Trials in the world to incorporate Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase phases, which have traditionally been run prior to competitors embarking on the Cross Country phase. The passing of this format into Eventing history is a significant moment for competitors and traditionalists. Held in some of the most beautiful areas of Burghley's parkland, these phases have offered spectators moments of serenity and a chance to enjoy the competition surrounded by acres of Capability Brown's perfected scenery."

From the Burghley E newsletter. Words fail me.

Flutie </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I could very well be (most likely am) clueless, but can't anyone who wants to, has the funds, and the help, put on a REAL 3-Day? I posted months ago about the Professional Bull Riders Asso. breaking off from the Professional Rodeo Cowboys Asso. to form their own, and now HIGHLY successful, organization. Bigger money and crowds than any PRCA rodeo.

If people really want a 3Day, I believe there are ways to make it happen. Just my thoughts though.

3dazey
Aug. 17, 2005, 03:06 PM
Reckon we could lure Ian Stark away from that South American team??? (What the heck country is it, anyway?) He would be so wonderful, sadly he probably wouldn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole.

deltawave
Aug. 17, 2005, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LisaB:
I think what he's trying to say is that we throw our money at just a few folks he deems acceptable ULR's and get nothing in return! Okay, now he's a communist pig. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, now...to be precise, it would be SOCIALIST pig. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RunForIt
Aug. 17, 2005, 03:14 PM
Janet,

I didn't want to come across as "bashing the USEA" in my post this morning as I am ever so grateful to them and to Janie Atkinson, for their support of the classic 3-day format. No, it'll simply remain a dream for a lower level rider like me, but read Johanna Dufort's post, what a loss she is facing...

Yes, as you and Persefne have so reasonably pointed out - CMP is simply speaking his opinion. In my letter to the USEA today, I agreed that he should have the right to express that opinion, but as one of the people that he continues to dismiss, I believe that the USEA could give him the same space to write a letter expressing his opinion, just like the rest of us. CMP does not need a column reserved for his opinions that continue to insult a wide range of the USEA membership.

Johanna, please send your post to the USEA!

3dazey
Aug. 17, 2005, 03:16 PM
dianad, just saw your post. There IS a way to do it, it's called a CCN (no need to break off from the USEA, don't need to recreate the wheel when the wheel still works...just need to get away from FEI on this.)

I know there are organizers out there who have the facilities to make it happen, and would be willing to give it a go, BUT...what is needed is: MONEY, to help defray the extra expense of a 3day (dedicated vet, s'chase fences, flags, jog area & staff, hospitality, the list goes ON); GUARANTEED VOLUNTEER FORCE, got to have them, lots of them, for a 3day...not too many organizers have access to the GUARANTEED #s necessary to make it happen; and COMPETITORS - people need to put their $ where their mouths are and get out there to enter a CCN.

This system worked beautifully for * and ** in the past, and can again. Less red tape & paperwork than a CCI, therefore cheaper and even MORE FUN than a CCI!!!

Magnolia
Aug. 17, 2005, 03:30 PM
CMP should get in a room with GM. Because according to GM, it's those good old fashioned riders who know how to ride and those new fangled "precocious" youngsters need to learn from them!

dianad
Aug. 17, 2005, 04:42 PM
3Dazey,
Thank you. That is exactly what I meant without knowing what I was talking about!

I think fabulous prize money would draw the entries. So much easier said than done though.

Janet
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cyberbay:
You know, Mark Phillips is sure given a lot of power and credit by the lower-level eventing community, based on the reaction he seems to elicit, when in fact, in his real, tangible roles, he doesn't have such clout. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Persefne pointed out, his "real, tangible role" DOES give him clout.

1- He helps select the team members.

2- He has said (perfectly rationally) that in selecting team members for SHORT FORMAT team competitions, he is going to be looking at SHORT FORMAT results.

3- Therefore, ULRs who aspire to be selected for the team choose (again perfectly rationally) to enter the SHORT FORMAT event rather than the full format one.

4- Therefore, there are not enough entries in the long format version (this is what happened at Fair Hill 2004)

5- If the riders don't enter, there is nothing the rest of us (members, organizers, officials) can do about it.

Janet
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:20 PM
Johanna,

How is your horse doing now?

AllyCat
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eventable:
Y'all can't have Mark. He's ours.

Alleycat - equestrian is not being held in mainland China for Beijing - it is being held in Hong Kong, which has a very strong racing industry, so I would expect there to be very good veterinary facilities there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but they are still a Chinese "protectorate" and therefore, communists. And can you say pollution, pollution, pollution?

eventable
Aug. 17, 2005, 06:26 PM
I'm kind of failing to see the link between communism and poor veterinary facilities, but there you go. HK is definitely not indicative of mainland China - remembering it's only been a few years since the handover and it has very different rules governing it than mainland China.

LE
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:31 PM
Wait...AllyCat..let me get this straight. CMP said that, in not so many words, since they have changed the formats, people aren't as 'worthy' as a competitor BECAUSE of this change???? what an asshole if that's the case! I mean, that is RUDE....let me see him get on a horse and ride the levels today--even Mark Todd was quoted in a PH issue upon his retirement that things are a lot harder now then when he started!!!

How RUDE to insult riders like myself and yourself at lower levels(ok, I'm at guppy level...perhaps he was refering to PreLim as low level??) when it's THESE riders that will continue on to make up the teams....and those kind of childish insults coming from someone who is supposed to be a guide for students....sorry, that's just WRONG.

What is with all the top eventers going off to different countries as Chef D'equipes!!! I don't get it!! Ian Stark of South America, David O'Conner for Canada, and CMP for the US???? Me is confuzzled.

Oh--thanks for the info on Mark Todd---I wonder why he isn't a CDequipe?? Too much pressure??

I'm still kicking myself for passing up riding in a clinic with him in 1996!

QHEventr
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:37 PM
Janet-

Diamond is headed for AEC and Fairhill (still hoping for rolex 2006) Little worried about how hes gonna take to the short format. He does best with that pipe opener and with the longer, more spread out courses. Thanks for asking

Johanna

QHEventr
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:38 PM
Run for it-

Thanks! I may have to reword my post a little to send it. Maybe someone will get word to the powers that be and they'll hop on over for a look themselves.

Johanna

deltawave
Aug. 17, 2005, 07:46 PM
I flat out refuse to call him "The Captain" and have always thought it a very stupid nickname--when he calls Denny "Mr. Emerson" and me "Dr. Cronin" I will call him "Captain Phillips" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Of course, he would never notice ME, a smurf. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Anyhow, YES his job is to make an upper-level team that is competitive in the current upper-level format. But why on earth does he have to go out of his way to trash the long format? That I will never understand. Leave us smurfs and OUR SPORT the hell alone, you old crotchety has-been! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

AllyCat
Aug. 17, 2005, 08:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eventable:
I'm kind of failing to see the link between communism and poor veterinary facilities, but there you go. HK is definitely not indicative of mainland China - remembering it's only been a few years since the handover and it has very different rules governing it than mainland China. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know your age, but 'in my day', Communists bad...hence the cold war. Now suddenly, communism is okay as long as we can stock our local Wart-Malls with cheap plastic crap they provide through slave labor. Never mind the fact that they completely squelch the freedoms of their citizens.

I wasn't trying to draw a comparison to poor vet facilities and communism, but was trying to make two separate points while very, very tired.

Even if HK has good vet facilities, the funds are still going to support a communist government that suppresses, tortures, imprisons, and kills its citizens for failure to toe the party line.

tle---Yes, indeedy, that is a direct quote from Mr. Chef's article. That ain't all he wrote either. Be sure to read it sitting down and probably NOT after a strong cup of coffee or you might be likely to blow a gasket. His opinion or not, you don't insult the people who will be reading your article and support the sport. It struck me as a callous, classist comment.

eventable
Aug. 17, 2005, 08:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> wonder why he isn't a CDequipe?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No idea - but since we have Blyth pretty much doign that job, I personally am happy as a clam.

AllyCat I am old enough to remember the cold war (I just have youthful skin). I also fully support your views on the way China treats its citizens and think it's human rights record is lamentable. However, and take this with a humungous grain of salt, I personally do not believe the average American citizen gives a damn about where the products they buy are coming from, nor do I believe that the American government is in a position to throw stones on this one.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Aug. 18, 2005, 03:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gry2Yng:

I believe Denny and Jimmy are being witty and sarcastic. Picture Denny calling Jimmy and saying "Hey Jimmy, I just read in Eventing USA that according to CMP you are useless in this day and age." and Jimmy replying "Quite True Denny. I read the same about you." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wit and sarcasm? From Denny and Jim? snicker... I thought they were dead serious, all the time! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

But the best humor has an element of truth in it, and jokes can be a more palatable way of making a point.

Which is not to say I agree with MP! But I'll accept that Denny and Jim are smarter than I am, with a wee bit more international experience, too, and I'm curious whether there is more to their assessment than the tautology "If you believe in the full format, you are an old useless dinosaur. Old Useless Dinosaur's have nothing to contribute to the modern age, therefore you must have nothing to contribute."

Make sense, or as much sense as international high performance issues can make??

Sannois
Aug. 18, 2005, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyhow, YES his job is to make an upper-level team that is competitive in the current upper-level format. But why on earth does he have to go out of his way to trash the long format? That I will never understand. Leave us smurfs and OUR SPORT the hell alone, you old crotchety has-been! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LMAO!!! Lynn I love your gumption!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

canterlope
Aug. 18, 2005, 03:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gahawkeye:
Just another little piece of information on our governing bodies support to the general membership -- The new Florida Horse Park has announced that they will offer CCI**/* in 2006 at the "short format" -- now I thought all **/* were encouraged to run at the long format to give the AA/YR and young horses the experience at speed, etc?

What happened? Could be a scheduling issue?? Could be FEI qualification requirements??? But on the surface it appears that the governing bodies (USEA/USEF) are not supporting the desires of the general membership as promised. I have voiced my concern with this to the Area III chariman and she has forwarded to appropriate committee members. I encourage others to do the same...
Unless of course, we don't really want the long format **/*.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>While it may appear on the surface that the governing bodies are not supporting the desires of the general membership as promised, I can tell you absolutely that this is not the case.

With regards to the Florida Horse Park, as you said, it is a brand new facility. As of right now, they have nine months to turn this brand new facility into one that will have the capability of hosting an event. Nine months may seem like a lot of time, but it really isn't when you start talking about all that is involved in the construction of the dressage rings, the cross country courses, and the like.

When the request to host a CCI came in from the Florida Horse Park, the Events Committee had a pretty tough decision to make. The FHP organizing committee had already made it known that they did not think they would have enough time to get everything done at the park that needed to be done if they were required to build a steeplechase course as well as roads and tracks. This left the Events Committee with a choice between approving the request only if the CCI could be run full format or approving the request and allowing the CCI to run short format.

Approving the request only if the full format was offered would have forced the FHP to either rush the construction of its facilities or not run at all. If the FHP was forced to rush through the construction of the steeplechase/roads and tracks in addition to everything else that needed to be built, the potential for substandard facilities would arise. If this happened, the horses and riders could have been placed in less than optimal and/or dangerous situations.

Not allowing the FHP to run a CCI would have taken away a qualifier from the competitors. Foregoing one qualifier may not seem like a big deal, but now that the new FEI qualification criteria has taken away the CIC as a qualifier for FEI Championships, the US is facing a serious need for CCIs. Just the young riders alone were already having a hard time qualifying for the NAYRC prior to this change. Next year the situation is going to get worse. Given that the young riders, along with any other rider desiring to qualify for an FEI championship, are a part of the general membership of the USEA/USEF, how responsive to their desires would it have been for the Events Committee to not allow the FHP to offer a CCI merely because it could not be run full format?

To be sure, doing all that is possible to preserve the full format is a very important and worthy goal of the governing bodies of our sport. However, attaining this goal has got to be a balancing act and one that is taken on a case by case basis. Yes, it is the desire of the general membership to see the full format preserved. But it is also the desire of the general membership to be able to compete as they wish. Qualifying and competing in championships falls into this catagory.

Unfortunately, in this case, these two desires could not be appeased at the same time and the Events Committee had to make the determination as to which one should take precedent. It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The decision was not taken lightly, done in a capricious manner, or made with no regard to the needs and desires of the membership.

Personally, I believe that approving the FHP request to run short format was the only responsible course of action that the committee could have taken and I applaud its members for having the guts to say yes when they knew full well they would get slammed for doing so.

LisaB
Aug. 18, 2005, 04:55 AM
TLE! Wha???
Dictator of the board? Ugh! Please! I was saying a tongue in cheek comment!
Jeez! Sorry if I didn't put a little icon on my Communist comment. And yes, DW, I get my politics messed up. Socialist is more like it.
And we do have set up funding and such for our ULR's. USEA and USEF have been very gracious plus there are a lot of great folks out there that monetarily support our excellent pool of riders. There's always more that we can do though.
So, back to the question, what can we do and who can we go to get our message across that we want someone new?
And Canterlope, thanks for the clarification on the FHP.

canterlope
Aug. 18, 2005, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LisaB:
TLE! Wha???
Dictator of the board? Ugh! Please! I was saying a tongue in cheek comment! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey LisaB. I may be wrong, but I think tle was not directing her comments toward you, but rather at gnep and asking him to stop with the barbed comments towards you, flyingchange, and others.

tle
Aug. 18, 2005, 05:59 AM
LisaB... Canterlope is correct. Gnep came out shooting against me, flyingchange and you...so I just shot back FOR all of us, not against you. sorry if you misunderstood.

LisaB
Aug. 18, 2005, 06:13 AM
Oh crap, my blonde roots are showing(no offense Canterlope and other blondes)
Can you say duh?
Well, then thanks tle. I owe you one.

Mariequi
Aug. 18, 2005, 06:56 AM
LisaB, tle and I are closet blondes anyway!

retreadeventer
Aug. 18, 2005, 06:57 AM
Well, I read the thing with an eye toward what he was saying to the international community. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif In international eventing, you have to make other teams believe you aren't competitive then show up and wipe them out, as Jack LeGoff did with the Americans in the 70's. A coach has to be a master of that sly intrigue. I felt he was a bit open about our weaknesses as a team and there's nothing new about the fact that we need top horses, every Advanced level rider is looking for another mount. Shoot, we've needed International horses for 50 years, we are always needing them. He just throws in that stuff about the long format to get a rise out of anybody http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif so they will listen to the thrust of his comments -- that we are going to be disappointed in our team if we don't get better horses and support their riders. I view what he says from the viewpoint of a European competitor, looking at the US to see what they have to beat. To be brutally honest, Kim is about it, isn't she? We need to find some horses and some riders who can <span class="ev_code_RED">get there</span> with them and we need to be competing abroad desperately, we should have full planeloads of horses competing at every four star throughout the world and we don't, and that's why we aren't going to beat anybody in Hongkong or wherever the World Championships are to be held. JMO. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I think when we dissolve into yet another long/short format spat we weaken our national strength. Accept / change / move on because the bottom line is the sport is arranged so that out of many a few are chosen. As long as the many are having fun -- most of us are at horse trials and the training three days and one stars are helping and will stay alive -- then concentrate on getting the few to WIN internationally. Focus. I see this and agree with it! I want the US to win too!

goobs
Aug. 18, 2005, 06:59 AM
What Gnep is trying to say (since June) is that if people don't enter the long format for the one and two stars then the long format will disappear in those divisions as well and pretty soon (as it's already starting to do). It's a point he reiterated here to Canterlope, TLE, and whoever else. Why do you insist on making it a personal attack and then throw out red herrings into the discussion? I really didn't read that as an attack on anyone.

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2005, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Janet:
his "real, tangible role" DOES give him clout.

1- He helps select the team members.

....

5- If the riders don't enter, there is nothing the rest of us (members, organizers, officials) can do about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Janet's post is right on the money. Several organizers tried to hold long format next to short and had to cancel the long due to lack of entries. If the riders don't come, nobody will build it again.

Regardless of who is the coach of our national team, their JOB will be to prepare US riders for international championships that are in the short format. Even if our team coach supports the long format, it isn't going to change the fact that our team will still have to spend all of its time prepping for short format events, and it is true that a different sort of horse will do well. So that coach, be it Jimmy or Denny or David, will have to select horse and rider teams who can do well at the short format, or lose their jobs or at the very least risk making US riders less competitive in international events.

IMO it's the whole FEI politcal crap where they used the cost and the wear and tear on the horses as an excuse to dumb down the sport at the highest levels that is at the root of all this. It's all the BS they're giving us about horses breaking down (with no research backing it up!) so that the end result is the European horses are more competitive in eventing.

It's unfortunately very hard for a grass roots effort to succeed at keeping the long format even at the * and ** levels if the riders at those levels are not entering. It just won't make sense economically to run full three days with 20 entries, even if you have the volunteers.

I'm not sure where it would be best to concentrate efforts to save the 3 day, but a start would be encouraging riders to enter those events. Trying to get more sponsorship and higher prize money at the * and ** levels might be a big attraction to encourage riders to work towards them as their goal. Having the full format at the AECs is another way, make it a real goal and accomplishment to even compete in them. Sadly the riders that are looking to make the national team are almost always going to enter short formats so they can achieve their riding goals, whether or not they like the short format.

I don't agree with a lot of CMPs comments, but every comment he makes is with the goal of making the US team more competitive internationally. I bet he's even referring to himself when he talks about the riders of the past being "useless" these days. His comments about getting riders to obtain more sponsorship and better horses and devote more of their time to training are all just trying to get those developing riders to advance their own skills and be better riders for the US in the future.

Janet
Aug. 18, 2005, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tle:
Well, I just wrote a letter to the burghley folks (both the info address and the public relations address) requesting a correction be printed as I can name at least 3 events that run counter to their public claim of being "the last." Might as well try to keep them honest... maybe it will work for them, as it certainly didn't based on some of Luhmuhlen's comments earlier this year. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The Burghley web site now says <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The Event will be the last four star Horse Trials in the UK to incorporate Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase phases, which have traditionally been run prior to competitors embarking on the Cross Country phase. The passing of this format into Eventing history is a significant moment for competitors and traditionalists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> ( added the bold)
I don't know if that is as a result of your email, or if it alwasy said it that way on the web site.

tle
Aug. 18, 2005, 08:49 AM
Heehee... actually it might be a result. I actually got a response from the "Press Officer" for the event:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thank you for your comments and we will add “four star in the UK” – because some ambiguity is emerging. However, it is our understanding that Lexington will be short format in 2005 and the others are not at the same level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thanked her for her reply and also mentioned that Lexington was trying to keep the Classic format in 2007 and my comments were due to the wording on their site, but thanks for posting the clarification.

Either way, I'm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cindy lou
Aug. 18, 2005, 09:27 AM
OK, I'll bite. You winder why you don't hear from "ULRs". Its because they're busy being "ULRs" instead of spewing half-truths on a website. Ask any of them, they love the long format, its why they started riding. But its gone, and their energies have turned toward giving the best performances they possibly can for themselves and their country in the short format. The Captain had his heyday as a rider in the era of the long format. He was very vocal three years ago, warning all of you that the long format was in danger if everyone didn't immediately protest BEFORE it was inaugurated. "No way!" you said,"they'd never do that". Well, guess what, while you were discussing XC colors and helmet sizes, they did. Deal with it.Don't blame him now for doing his job. His job is not to make everyone happy and tell half truths like our USEF president does (who, by the way, has ALWAYS been a closet supporter of the Short Format, so don't look to him for help), the Captain's job is to produce winning International teams. If those teams have to compete in the SHort Format, that's what he will coach for. He may not like it, but he will do his best. I don't think you'll find many "ULRs" that would want anyone else coaching them. There. I'm done.

persefne
Aug. 18, 2005, 09:56 AM
Cindy Lou -- I hope to God you are not an eventer. With "friends" like you...

Speaking of half-truths, can you support your allegation that "I don't think you'll find many ULRs that would want anyone else coaching them"? I'd love to hear something more concrete/legitimate regarding that suggestion. Just curious...

Mariequi
Aug. 18, 2005, 09:58 AM
Okay, cindy lou who - who are you - really? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifSeriously though - appreciate your input.

persefne
Aug. 18, 2005, 10:01 AM
Ok, was that a joke? Is "Cindy Lou" really Jimmy and I just asked him to clarify a "half-truth"? Please tell me that Cindy Lou is kidding. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

deltawave
Aug. 18, 2005, 10:07 AM
Never pay attention to an inflammatory post that is someone's first one. Can you say TROLL? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Yes, many ULRs love the long format. Unfortunately, many of the ones that seem to "matter" (at least to MP) have all embraced the short format, publicly.

I wouldn't mind seeing the article, letter, statement where MP "warned us" 3 years ago that the long format was in danger. Mind quoting the citation?

persefne
Aug. 18, 2005, 10:17 AM
I have a feeling that although we've asked politely for "proof" that Cindy Lou will not be back with any sort of solid evidence to support his/her allegations. A poster that condemns half-truths by spouting more of the same is just what DW says: a troll.

Moving on...

KellyS
Aug. 18, 2005, 10:23 AM
For heaven's safe, if it had not been for this BB, I don't think many of us would have realized the magnitude of these changes taking place. And look at all the support the classic format has received due to this BB.

To return to the topic at hand, personally, I have very little enthusiasm for international-level eventing at this point. I mean, who wants to go watch a glorified horse trials? I wish I could make sure any money I'm paying towards national organizations was going towards events with classic formats (no matter what level) versus supporting the international teams.

Unfortunately, a few of the more "vocal" ULRs have only shown disdain for the rest of us lower level folks. I could really care less how they fair in international competition. What's that saying - don't bite the hand that feeds you. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Janet
Aug. 18, 2005, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wouldn't mind seeing the article, letter, statement where MP "warned us" 3 years ago that the long format was in danger. Mind quoting the citation? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't give you the citation, but I DO remember seeing his warning statements. In fact I think someone posted them here as part of the discussion after Fair Hill 2004, as demonstrating that he had changed his public statements by 180 degrees.

Lisa Cook
Aug. 18, 2005, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KellyS:
Unfortunately, a few of the more "vocal" ULRs have only shown disdain for the rest of us lower level folks. I could really care less how they fair in international competition. What's that saying - don't bite the hand that feeds you. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well...did anyone else go on the SmartPak course walk at Rolex this year? It was cold, there was a steady rain, it was fairly miserable out there...but Kim Severson and Amy Tryon came out and gave a really nice tour walk for all of us lower level riders. They didn't just go through the motions - they spent a long time signing autographs and talking to people. They answered all questions asked of them and encouraged more. They both showed of lot of good humor and smiles the entire 2+ hours we were out there and had a general question/answer session + more autograph signing at the end.

Now, the cynics would say they were obligated to do the walk as a sponsorship requirement. But they went way above & beyond, especially given the weather conditions, IMHO. There was never a feeling from them of disdain or that they were lowering themselves to talk to the great unwashed masses, at all.

Timex
Aug. 18, 2005, 10:40 AM
well, troll or not, cindy lou has a point, and it's the same point that several others have made here, on this thread. CMP's job is to put together the best team possible. so if he's looking at a short-format event, then he's looking at riders and horses with the best success at short format events. so the ULRs are going to be at the short format events, not the long format events. while our URL's might love the long format, if they want to get the chance at the team, they don't exactly have very many options, now do they? now, how vocal CMP was several years ago, i don't know. at this point, it doesn't much matter, does it. for now, we've got better things to worry about. you want the long formats? bust your ass, write the letters, volunteer, volunteer, volunteer, be willing to pay the $$$ to support the long format events. don't like CMP's role? organize, write the letters, use YOUR clout as a member. if you're not a member, then join. sure, then you'll have to shell out the $$$, but then you'll have a VOICE! if you don't like CMP's editorials, then don't read them. While it's nice to have someplace to vent your frustrations, posting on a BB doesn't get much accomplished unless you use it as a springboard, like with the Save the 3 Day. problem is, it';s a hell of a lot easier to just post here, and lot more difficult to actually get off your ass. so, who's willing to actually organize something to get rid of the Captain? me? i don't really have a dog in that fight, but if someone who's better at getting this stuff organized can do something, i'll lend my voice, as i don't necessarily appreciate some of what CMP has stated...

KellyS
Aug. 18, 2005, 10:49 AM
Notice, I didn't say all...but two instances instantly pop to mind - Amy's article in Practical Horseman this past spring and Darren's comments at the USEA Annual meeting last winter.

But I'll counter that with a good story - John Williams was a judge at the T3DE and he was so nice to all of us. Never condescending and very willing to answer any questions. I distinctly remember him calming me down in the vet box after the vet had had us pull Traveler's one boot off - we were getting short on time and I was fumbling with my noseband and girth as Aaron was putting the boot back on. He told me to relax and let me know exactly how much time I had to get to the start box.

So, I guess I should rephrase that and say that I could care less about the riders who have talked down about us...but there are also riders who I root for (even if it is the short format http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif).

Elliot
Aug. 18, 2005, 11:02 AM
I agree that it absolutely sucks to lose the traditional three-day. My goals still involve a real three-day, and I can't imagine why anyone would pay the big bucks to do a short format one-star.

But that aside there is a fair amount of evidence that Capt. Phillips has supported the long format in the past, still does to some degree, and is well-liked by our international riders for his tough love attitude and teaching ability.

I know you don't all get the Chronicle, so I pulled some quotes from two articles that I think pertain to this discussion.

In Feb. the editor attended a meeting with USEF/USEA officials and top riders on what should be done about the format change.

He reported:

"Capt. Mark Phillips sadly told the Americans that British eventers have all but given up on the full-format three-day event, primarily because the championship goal is gone.

Jim Wolf said after the meeting that Phillips' position on the three-day format has been misunderstood, "He was the strongest advocate of the long format of anyone I knew, but he was surrounded by people who said, 'Forget about it.' And when they changed the championships, there was nothing he could do but get his teams ready for something new."

Perhaps most significantly, Janie Atkinson, director of the Rolex Kentucky CCI****, enthusiastically agreed to Capt. Mark Phillips' suggestion to seek FEI approval for running an individual World Championship at Kentucky in odd-numbered years."

Those quotes would lead me to believe that CMP was actually coming up with a way to try and preserve the traditional format at the highest level.

The next quotes come from a Horseman's forum Robert Costello wrote.

"Every single person who loved the sport of eventing should have had a chill run up their spine when they read the FEI's 2001 document, "Future of Eventing." It stated something to the effect that, "Over time, it is envisioned that the sport of three-day eventing will evolve into a CIC format"

We were all duped by the FEI. I think many of us knew that continental Europe would use its significant clout within the FEI to steer eventing in the direction that best suited their horses. But we also truly believed that with the help of a few other eventing powerhouses' national federations (the British, New Zealand, and Australian) and organizers like the great Janie Atkinson from Rolex Kentucky, we could keep the FEI from changing the sport overall.

The stark reality: We have not been successful. Like it or not, this is where we are. As I was quoted saying in this magazine in December, "the train has left the station."
Capt. Phillips is concerned with one thing--producing rider and horse combinations to the very top level so they can win medals. Period. But he also chose to be at the forefront of the fight to save the three-day from the very beginning--again, when it wasn't flashing on the radar screen like it is right now."

I'm all for working to save the real three-day in this country, but I don't think firing CMP is going to do that. He wants us to be the best in the world. Is he rude? Sure. Does he get results? Yes. And you might ask Denny, Bruce and Jimmy how much they loved Jack Le Goff when he was making them ride without stirrups in their bloody breeches.

It just frustrates me to see people pointing to CMP as the problem when as many people have mentioned the issue is entries and expense.

persefne
Aug. 18, 2005, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Timex:
well, troll or not, cindy lou has a point </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where? On the top of her head? Just kidding...I'm sure Cindy Lou is just great.

I disagree, though, that you feel this BB is just someplace for us to "vent our frustrations." The COTH forums are very unique, in relation to a number of web bbs or forums out there, in that we are not just a bunch of cyberheads tied to our desks/computers who get on here to pass the time of day (well, we get on here to pass the time of day, but in a more productive manner than may be imagined!). Many of us compete together/against one another on the weekends, meet up at events, groom for one another, clinic together, lesson together, travel together to events, are friends from "the real world" who get on here to keep up with one another, or happen to be stabled at the same barn. Many of the posters on this bb (at least the eventing forum, for sure) have numerous face to face interactions that make our web interaction a bit different from other online forums. This serves to keep us connected when we don't have the luxury of living in the same town as some of our "real world" friends or when we don't have the pleasure of seeing one another every weekend at various shows. As a community, we're probably much more present and connected in one another's actual lives than many participants in other bbs out there, so I wouldn't just mark this up as a place for us to go and chat. There are a lot of things (volunteering, competing, attending meetings, organizing, starting actions, etc.) that go on out in the "real world" that are far removed from what we just have the time or energy to discuss or elaborate on here. Telling us to get out there and "act" is kind of beside the point. We're already doing that. That's why we're here.

LE
Aug. 18, 2005, 11:07 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Ok, I'm lost here.
From what I'm gathering, you all are angry at the loss of the long format. But...why? I mean, is it because you feel that now 'any rider' can do the harder levels that may not be 'ready' for it(horse conditioning etc) or do you honestly love all the phases?

I have done roads and tracks and XC up to some PRelim heights, but only showed lower level horse trials. My goal was to make it to Kentucky, even at guppy level http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif However much I love this sport, I figured it would take me as far as I could go, rahter than myself making goals that I knew would be difficult to strive towards at a certain point(Read-horse factor/finances/time)

If you all love eventing....and you can see you do, then wouldn't you be happy that eventing is still in the games? I mean, when I heard Bejing wanted to drop it(bitching about no land, but really they didn't have any event riders, so why waste money was what I heard. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif again, don't bid for the Games if you want to segregate only sports you can dominate in!!) and the short format seemed to be the only resolution to keeping eventing IN there. I was happy that occured, but then other events started to adopt the short format...I figured it was more to get teams ready for the Games/World Championships. If they aren't going to continue with needing long format, it would be practical to not expend any excess risk to your horse...right?

Again, not having kept up to date with this issue, I"m way behind on info--so if people here could help me understand--I LOVE this sport and hope to return to it next year.(I love the hunter ring, but it's been three years now and...yawn...I want a change http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

CAn any supply the link to CMP editorial??? I'm curious to read it now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Again I mean no insult to you--I just want to be informed about this situation, but I'm terrifed we'll lose eventing all together, and that would break my heart!!!!

persefne
Aug. 18, 2005, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elliot:
Does he get results? Yes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean by "results?"

KellyS
Aug. 18, 2005, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LE:
Again, not having kept up to date with this issue, I"m way behind on info--so if people here could help me understand...I'm terrifed we'll lose eventing all together, and that would break my heart!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, first of all, eventing will not be lost all together...however, I think most of us are upset at seeing a "bastardized" version (the short format) being promoted as eventing.

Why Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase? Because it just plain allows the horses to warm up and get the adrenalin pumping to go out and tackle a cross country course. I just did my first three day (at the Training level) and there was no comparison (to a normal horse trials)! My horse was so "on" and so ready to face the questions on cross country. He's never felt so good! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Eventing is a tough sport...getting to a real three day is hard work. There is a chance of injury whether you do or don't do R&T/Steeplchase and there is no research that says these phases are detrimental to the horse. Almost every event rider I've known has one goal - to get to a three day. It is so special to be able to complete one and I truly believe it is the ultimate test of horsemanship.

I'm sure others will be able to say this better than me, but here's a start.

Elliot
Aug. 18, 2005, 11:23 AM
Jack Le Goff retired in 1984 after his team won their second Olympic gold medal. This was the last team gold medal U.S. eventers saw until the 2002 WEG.

CMP started coaching the U.S. in 1993, the year after the U.S. eventing team barely completed at the Barcelona Olympics. Since then the U.S. has won team medals at the next 3 Olympic games as well as taking gold in the WEG.

Granted the addition of the Rolex four-star has a lot to do with this as well, but that is what I meant by results.

As stated before, CMP's job is to bring home medals, and it seems to me that he's doing a reasonable job of that.

Obviously there's more to life and eventing than medals. 99% of us won't ever compete internationally. But medals do bring eventing recognition and recognition brings people to the sport.

persefne
Aug. 18, 2005, 11:29 AM
Ok, Elliott. Thanks for elaborating!

And, I agree with this: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Obviously there's more to life and eventing than medals. 99% of us won't ever compete internationally. But medals do bring eventing recognition and recognition brings people to the sport. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But, there's very little we can do, I guess, about delineating "success" in our sport (or "results") as anything other than ribbons or medals. Although, as *we* know, success (or results) does mean so much, much more.

tle
Aug. 18, 2005, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LE:
do you honestly love all the phases? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Love the phases, love the blood sweat tears and work that is needed to get to that point. 3DE is the whole package,plain and simple.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have done roads and tracks and XC up to some PRelim heights, but only showed lower level horse trials. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ahh... but you haven't done it with steeplechase or in a competition... it's an amazing feeling!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However much I love this sport, I figured it would take me as far as I could go, rahter than myself making goals that I knew would be difficult to strive towards at a certain point(Read-horse factor/finances/time) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And no one will ever fault you for those goals. However, there are many who's goals ARE to do a classic 3-day ... to put in the time and effort, etc. to experience such a thing. To Quote "It's the Hard that makes it great!". What is being touted as a CCI is no longer that without those extra requirements.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you all love eventing....and you can see you do, then wouldn't you be happy that eventing is still in the games? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. what is the point? The "games" are not the pinnacle of the sport (Athens ran XC at barely a 3* level). The "games" are becoming more and more politically motivated (not to mention thriving on $$). Sorry to say, but whatever they do now isn't going to make a hill of beans difference in the quite near future when eventing will be out of the games anyway. Too much cost, not enough revenue... but it will be masked under some excuse like not enough participants or under some guise of horse welfare.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If they aren't going to continue with needing long format, it would be practical to not expend any excess risk to your horse...right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And who says it's excess risk? If steeplechase had not been run at this year's Rolex, Windfall II may never have been known to have a problem until he was out galloping and jumping over solid fences. I wouldn't call that excess risk but appropriate precautions. Those who made the change site horse welfare just as you seem to be... yet there is NO solid scientific proof that the short format is better. In fact, just the opposite... there IS a CCI** research that shows virtually NO distinguishable difference in the 2 formats. So much for the welfare argument, eh?

deltawave
Aug. 18, 2005, 01:05 PM
LE, if you are indeed "lost" and looking for info (and don't mind reading a large number of passionate opinions) I sugeest you do a search on this topic on the BB. The topic has been discussed in agonizing detail on many occasions, and all the "pro" and "con" arguments are presented.

As tle said, a whole lot of us don't care that much about the Olympics. It's no longer considered the pinnacle of the sport by anyone, and in terms of we amateurs, it is not "our" sport of eventing, particularly in the short format. Most of us disagree thoroughly with the argument that the short format is "better for the horses" (totally unproved theory) and in the end are just wondering WHY the sport had to be changed at all?

And to reiterate, I am well aware of MP's role as our team's Chef. (hehe, I like saying that--can picture him making pancakes for a bunch of hungry riders) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He seems to be well respected in that role. What he is NOT, however, is a representative of ME, other lower level riders LIKE me, and therefore his disdainful attitude (which is well documented) towards us "lower level people" WRT the three day format that WE WANT TO PRESERVE is totally unwelcome and frankly, it's none of his damn business. Coach your team, leave us alone!

Timex
Aug. 18, 2005, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by persefne:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Timex:
well, troll or not, cindy lou has a point </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where? On the top of her head? Just kidding...I'm sure Cindy Lou is just great.

I disagree, though, that you feel this BB is just someplace for us to "vent our frustrations." The COTH forums are very unique, in relation to a number of web bbs or forums out there, in that we are not just a bunch of cyberheads tied to our desks/computers who get on here to pass the time of day... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and don't worry, i get all of that. however, my point was, while that many of the posters here are active in each other's life, and that this BB does have a pretty good record of getting things done, there's still a lot of whining just to whine. if you have an opinion, great, you want to talk about it? great. BUT my old boss has a saying 'don't complain about that which you cannot or will not change.' so what is anyone doing about this one? where's the letter writing campaign? the t-shirt? the patches? what is anyone doing to get rid of CMP, or at least, his editorials?

deltawave
Aug. 18, 2005, 01:29 PM
Just because it isn't constantly talked about doesn't mean there isn't a lot being done about this topic! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No, nobody's out putting a contract out on MP with a guy named "Knuckles", and no, nobody's burning the flag or anything, but things are being done, quietly, systematically, and with a great deal of thought.

It may not be flamboyant, but grass-roots support of 1/2 stars, CCI*s and the like, collecting statements of support from ULRs, continued communication with the USEA/USEF, etc. are all happening.

If anyone wants to do something CONCRETE, may I suggest throwing your support behind the Waredaca Training 3 Day event, to be held this fall? They are actively soliciting prize donations, sponsorship, and any and all help. Want to make a difference? This would be one good way to do so. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://trainingthreeday.tripod.com/index.html

ZEBE
Aug. 18, 2005, 02:07 PM
Sigh... Johanna posting made me misty. I'm at the other end of the spectrum, that is.. 54 and counting and since 1988, when I attended (as a spectator) my first 3 Star at Chesterland (it was the last year held there) I've thought aboutwhat it would be like to ride at a 3-day. I probably knew in my heart then that I'd never ride at a 3 star, 2 star.. heck probably never ride prelim... but it truly became a part of our life for my husband and I. He's ridden up the ranks thru *** and we've experience joys and disappointments. But I still feel we are on the cusp losing something very special. Johannas comments were right on the mark.

persefne
Aug. 18, 2005, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deltawave:
No, nobody's out putting a contract out on MP with a guy named "Knuckles" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whew, DW, it's good to hear YOU say that! I was starting to wonder...(not that I'm sure you wouldn't just love to). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Thanks, also, for posting the Waredaca T3-day link here where we can all see it.

Timex, if you read this thread all the way through from page 1, then you saw that several of us mentioned mounting a protest at the USEA convention in New Orleans this year. We weren't kidding.

mjedge808
Aug. 18, 2005, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gnep:
What a surprise, ladida.

I found even more interesting what he had to say about course design. A designer that designs a near to unjumpebal watercomplex should have his or hers licens pulled. A designer that is still learning at the 3 or 4 star level, gets people killed and that is realy bad for the sport.

Why has the AEC no long format??
Training,1 star, 2 star and maybe 3 star ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, AEC is a horse trial, NOT a CCI or CIC. FEI has nothing to do with it. it is the AMERICAN champions, i.e Nationals, so it's not an international (FEI) thing. It is designed and has been conceived with the notion of supporting the nation's riders, grassroots to pros.

and as for learning course design, all course designers are licensed in this country by USEF after extensive training. they do not just jump in and start in a 3 star. many years of experience are needed and they get them.. yes there are mistakes. it happens. but not every time. course designers have a very hard job and i would not want it. kudos to them since they pay out a lot to get their license and to keep it.

mjedge808
Aug. 18, 2005, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
To play devil's advocate, do you think Mark Phillips was simply saying that it is better to accept the shorter version of eventing, rather than risk losing the sport all-together?

I'm still totally pissed that it was the Beijing Games that started this all---they wanted to oust the Eventing due to limitation on land, and this some how set the ball in motion </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually it didn't. there was talk in the IOC about this long before China ever got the games. many host countries have talked about the cost of preparing land that never gets used again for that purpose. just a question: how many times do you see any event run at the Los Angeles center built for the equestrian....or Atlanta?

it wasn't just Beijing, though they didn't help. they thought horse events in all forms would be gone by the time 2008 rolled in.

RAyers
Aug. 18, 2005, 02:43 PM
mjedge808,

Please look at some of the earlier discussion here about the AEC. The idea of haivng CCIs being a part of that was discussed. The idea is that then you have incentive to the "nation's riders, grassroots to pros" to do the long format CCI. Gnep was not mistaken in his comment. The idea is to make the AEC the true top of the sport in the US, not the BS Olympics.

As for course design, yes, designers have a lot of qualifications, but that same type of obstical has caused problems at other venues over the years. I would hope that the XC designers would learn from the past, especially when they are at the 3 and 4 star level.

Gnep has stood by his comments time and again and it seems that his predictions are coming true. Riders are not entering the CCIs when they can so events cancel those divisions. There were only 4 CCI*s in the US this year (3 in the east and 1 in the west). That makes it hard for folks to enter unless they live there and if oyu do ride in one, you are not going to enter all.

bigdreamer
Aug. 18, 2005, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Obviously there's more to life and eventing than medals. 99% of us won't ever compete internationally. But medals do bring eventing recognition and recognition brings people to the sport. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


mmmmmmk.


IMHO recognition and the expansion of our sport has been it's demise. So many people want a whif of glory and a chance to get themselves in the spot light that they don't want to go through all the hard work. They aren't real horse people who put in the hours and blood and sweat and tears. They just want to buy a nice trained horse and get to the top.


how many times does it need to be said that a 4* horse is NOT a typical horse!? They are UNIQUE and SPECIAL and these trainers who "mass produce them" are rubbing off the wrong way on the masses. And people keep hoping that they too can get a $300 OTTB and go Advanced. THAT'S JUST NOT REALITY.

"If riding was all medals and bright lights, i'd have quit years ago"

F the medals and recognition to expand the sport. Win them because we have good riders and a good team and quality horses. Not to bring more "citiots" to our sport that don't have the time/desire to put in as much to their horses that is required.

If you wanna do a short format, do a fricken CIC- or even make the CIC's more prestigiuos- but don't F with the true heart of our sport.

LE
Aug. 18, 2005, 03:41 PM
tle and KellyS--thank you SO much..your words and love for this sport is why I love riding and eventing. It's not about glory, it's about the freedom one feels riding out there, and tackling any challenge.

I totally hear you and personally, my goal WAS to get to a three day---Rolex of course, as it's a bit of an 'easier' dream to make a reality.

If the search function worked for me deltawave, I"d be using it(#@%$ computer!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I can understand why you all feel so passionatly about this. I know this: Eventing to me is the closest to freedom I've ever been....and I can totally relate to why you want the long format to stay in place.

Gnep
Aug. 18, 2005, 07:26 PM
mjedge808,

There can not be a learning curve for a course designer at that level. If a jump gets pulled during competion, it just means the CD does not know what he is doing.
What I think is really outrages how it is dealt with, learning curve and well those riders were just not up to it, second class riders so to speak. That is for me, as a rider were I have a problem with Mark Phillips.
I have to be able to trust the officials, the TD, the DC and the builder when I enter a event, especialy at the upper level, my horses health and my health depends on that trust. There can not be any guinee pig status. It troubles me how nonchalant something like this is treated. That attitude produced Jerez, Atlanta, Kiev and Mexico City and so many other stupid X-Cs.
Instead of suspending the licens, John Williams gets rewarded with a Championship course.

The rest of the article is just the plain truth, based on the current international requierements and with those has Phillips to deal.
One thing is clear, if he does not produce a medal winning team for 2006, than everybody in this forum will call him a looser and rip him appart. If he produces medals he will be the heroe and al will be forgiven.

That simple

deltawave
Aug. 18, 2005, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gnep:
One thing is clear, if he does not produce a medal winning team for 2006, than everybody in this forum will call him a looser and rip him appart. If he produces medals he will be the heroe and al will be forgiven.

That simple </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, not that simple. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I frankly don't care if we win any medals in 2006, because IMO nobody in 2006 will be contesting a real 3 day event at the highest levels. I already think he's a loser. And all will certainly NOT be forgiven until he takes back all the stupid, unnecessarily patronizing and insulting things he's said about pretty much every event rider in this country except Kim Severson and until he changes his mind (AGAIN) about the long format. It is THAT simple. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janet
Aug. 18, 2005, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That attitude produced Jerez, Atlanta, Kiev and Mexico City and so many other stupid X-Cs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I wonder why you left off Soeul, which was one of the worst.

LE
Aug. 18, 2005, 08:34 PM
Hey---does anyone know why Mike Plumb or Karen Stives aren't considered for CDequipes? They are brilliant and I seem to recall reading an article about Mike about the Seoul Games, and the difficulties they ran into their for their team....and Mike was the one they went to(the other team members)---he is another rider I would LOVE to ride with!!!! And Karen Stives is amazing too....where are they both now???

subk
Aug. 18, 2005, 08:52 PM
I suppose working toward page 8 I can't ignore this thread anymore...as much as it depresses me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elliot:
Granted the addition of the Rolex four-star has a lot to do with this as well, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Elliot has credited Mr. Phillips (as a courtesy title his use of "Captain" is incorrect) AND Rolex becoming a four star for the increase in the number of internatioanlay viable ULRs. hmmmm...

I keep hearing from supporters that "Phillips is just doing what he has to do to create winning Teams." I say HORSEHOCKEY. Phillips is doing what he has to do to create winning teams TODAY and for the few years he has left on his contract. The Hell with 10 years down the road.

Why? I thought you'd never ask. Just where were all the riders at this year's Rolex. Why, they were off in Europe competing at events that Phillips told them to compete at--even if those horse and rider combinations had successfull **** experience they were sent to a CIC THREE star. (Oh, and one at which guess who designed the course.)

It is my understanding that the word was "If you have asperations for the Team you had better not compete at Rolex." There may have been some leeway for some more established riders. Now Rolex is this country's premier event. The signle greatest thing that has raised the level of riding in this country. (Yes, even greater than the "Captaisn" influence.) In my book Rolex is sacred. It exists because of sponsorship, which exists because of crowds. They ran half the horses this year. Just how many years do you think the crowds (and hence the sponsorship will last) if our best and brightest young and upcoming riders are told NOT to compete there?

Rolex has been damaged. Phillips damaged it. Where will our program be if Rolex begins to suffer because of the damage Phillips has inflicted on it?

Phillips needs to go if for no other reason than he failed to support the greatest long term assest that US eventing has in it's quest for international success.

...Sorry, I'm not going to spell check this, I'm going to bed...

Hannahsmom
Aug. 19, 2005, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:
Phillips needs to go if for no other reason than he failed to support the greatest long term assest that US eventing has in it's quest for international success. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen.

And for those who say he is 'doing his job to produce better teams', I say that maybe the program is better now than in the post-LeGoff years when it seemed in chaos, so I'll give him that, but it seems like the team is having difficulty finding the good horse/rider combinations (even CMP says so) and I don't see CMP vocalizing any fresh ideas in the open.

persefne
Aug. 19, 2005, 05:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gnep:
One thing is clear, if he does not produce a medal winning team for 2006, than everybody in this forum will call him a looser and rip him appart. If he produces medals he will be the heroe and al will be forgiven.

That simple </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also do not really agree with this statement. I don't attribute *any* of Kim's success in Athens to CMP. I attribute maybe only 10% of the bronze medal for the team to CMP. What I *do* expect of CMP (or the American chef, whomever that is/might be) is the attitude that fosters strength and intelligence in furthering the future of a sport that thousands of riders enjoy...not just a select percentage. It's more of the leadership role for the sport in which he is primarily lacking (frankly, failing at, in my book) that I would like to see changed by the initiation of a new chef. To me, it really has nothing to do with whether *he* wins or loses medals.

Edited because it was too early for me to be typing and coherent at the same time, first time around.

persefne
Aug. 19, 2005, 05:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:
I say HORSEHOCKEY. Phillips is doing what he has to do to create winning teams TODAY and for the few years he has left on his contract. The Hell with 10 years down the road.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't have said this better in a million years. You are so correct, Subk. He is all about "right now," and we'll be left to sift through the pieces of our international team and our sport when he drifts away.

tle
Aug. 19, 2005, 05:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LE:
Hey---does anyone know why Mike Plumb or Karen Stives aren't considered for CDequipes? ....where are they both now??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know about Mike Plumb, but I think Karen is still active on the USET Selection Committee.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">subk's post </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Any wonder why you're my hero? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Right on the money.

retreadeventer
Aug. 19, 2005, 05:58 AM
Thank you for posting the link to the Training Three Day at Waredaca -- every time I post something about it, it gets edited off, so I appreciate the connection. Yes, we are in need of sponsorship and help at this point and I have to get off this computer and get to the barn, but I want to thank everyone who helps in advance. We need you!Training three day (http://trainingthreeday.tripod.com)

Fence2Fence
Aug. 19, 2005, 07:00 AM
After following this topic, I decided to read the editorial. I purposely skipped it the other night when I received my issue. Like others here, I’m not a fan of CMP.

Reading it objectively, CMP is stating the reality of the sport and his comments aren’t meant to insult the “has beens”or the upper level riders who are striving to make the team. He's only doing his job, and he’s telling everyone what needs to get done to make a competitive international team.


Kim S. is the current super star. Winning Rolex by thirty something points is very revealing about the level of competition in the US. There is Kim and then there is everyone else—one superstar does not make for a winning team. I don’t think it’s “worship” from CMP. In past editorials he’s been very blunt about her struggles with water jumps and the effort she’s put into improving her stadium. His comments aren't an insult to other riders--it's a truthful comment of their overall competitiveness on a world stage. It’s not that it makes them any less of a great rider, but when it comes to winning medals they are going to have to work at improving. He’s not a coach to pat everyone on the head and tell them how great they are—he’s paid to field a team and that involves telling people how to improve to make the team.

The US would be a power house if there were a dozen superstar riders with a barn full of three and four star horses available to pick a team from. When you look at the ULRs, most of them are lucky to have one horse and when they compete internationally, they barely scratch the top ten. There is no reason for them not to be proud of their achievement, because we all know they’ve busted their tails to get that far. But the pickings for a team are rather slim when you only have riders with one horse who really aren’t that competitive on a world stage. I’ve watched the team selections over the years—it always seems like the last horse and rider still sound when the Olympics/WEG/etc start that make the team. How can you build any lasting international teams when you are dealing with a war of attrition?

I respect riders who make their horses from racetrack trash, but you aren't going to build a lasting power house international team. I love the stories of the $500 horse winning Rolex or making the team, but that’s just not going to cut it when other nations have a breeding base to select from and sponsors willing to shell out the funds to develop international quality horses.

I didn't take the comment about the “has beens” like Denny or Jimmy Wofford as a slam against them. CMP is stating the truth about the courses today--the standards have increased so much that even the best riders of yesterday would have to improve their game in order to compete against the current competition. He's not saying the greats of the past couldn't rise to the level and kick everyone's butt. He's saying the standards have increased so much that it even makes him "shudder."

His comments on losing the * and ** events are another realistic assessment of the sport. C’mon folks, we all knew this is coming. FEI forced it at the top and it’s a domino effect. We can try to fight it, but it’s a matter of time. I feel as cheated on this issue as much as the next person. And, yes, I feel extremely bitter about it.

Don't take this post as defending the pompous goat. CMP is an easy target of our anguish of losing the long format since he's the Olympic coach. He’s over fighting for the long format because he realizes the fight was won before anyone could pick up the arms to go to battle. Yes, it's a shame because his actions have repercussions for the future of the sport. He’s getting down to doing his job as coach and accepted the long format is gone. Our anger and personal attacks are better directed at the FEI.

Jazzy Lady
Aug. 19, 2005, 07:05 AM
I've kept my mouth shut because I'm not a member of the USEA but I have been reading this thread over and have to say something.

I know many of you are in major support of the classic three day, and of course I would love to do a classic three day myself. You still can do a classic one star this fall. Midsouth isn't changing and I don't know if they have plans to or not.

Although you guys are saying that you don't want CMP because he represents aspects of the changing event world that you don't like or agree with, do you think that getting rid of him as a team coach is really going to stop the format from changing? Have you realized how many of the upper level competitors are in support of the short format and of CMP? Are you guys team members? Does CMP staying on directly affect you as a member of the USEA? Booting CMP will do nothing to change the evolving format of this sport. He is not the sole person behind this. Take up your frustrations with the higher ups in the FEI, ALL OF THEM.

If you guys had a team coach that would refuse to accept the changing sport, what would happen to your team? Coaching must evolve, riding must evolve, and the horses must evolve in order to compete and stay at the top of the game. If you want to be competitive in this sport, you have to change with the sport. We all KNOW that the long format is going away, it's already happening. Next year there will be NO long format ****... so change with the world. It sucks, it's sad especially for all of us that are aspiring to do the traditional format in the upper levels, but what can we do. Take it as it comes and try to be the best we can be in the new format. Roll with the punches, because as much as it sucks... it's happening. And maybe you don't agree with CMP's way of doing it, but do you think you could do a better job of it yourself?

JMHO, sorry if I'm playing devil's advocate. I just felt I needed to say my opinion.

dianad
Aug. 19, 2005, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deltawave:


If anyone wants to do something CONCRETE, may I suggest throwing your support behind the Waredaca Training 3 Day event, to be held this fall? They are actively soliciting prize donations, sponsorship, and any and all help. Want to make a difference? This would be one good way to do so. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://trainingthreeday.tripod.com/index.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DW, Thanks for bringing this up, great idea. The $$ I could donate wouldn't amount to too much, so I just sponsored a custom equine portrait as a prize. Diana

deltawave
Aug. 19, 2005, 08:16 AM
Once again, and speaking only for myself, I have almost no interest in "glory" at the upper levels for our Team. I event because it's a sport that I love. The fact that there is an Olympic eventing team is cool, but doesn't impact my personal enjoyment of the sport one bit. Yes, I adore going to Rolex to see how the "big guns" do it, and I will always support Rolex because Rolex (or Janie Atkinson) supports MY SPORT, which I personally identify as the 3 day event in the classic format. THAT is the sport *I* want to compete in.

The Olympians and ULRs can do precisely as they please, along with their coach. Fine with me. But (again) LEAVE US LLRs AND OUR SPORT ALONE.

If I were a recreational or amateur/competitive cyclist, I'd sure get a huge kick out of Lance Armstrong. But the fact that Lance Armstrong has now retired doesn't change my sport of cycling on my level at all. What the gods on Mount Olympus do does affect the sport in general, but it NEEDN'T change the entire future of the sport down here on "earth".

I personally haven't given up on the idea that the long format will make a resurgence all the way up to the top levels. But for now, it seems the battle lies down at the CCI* and CCI** levels, and at the "half star" level. Would it kill MP to acknowledge that 90+% of the eventers who pay HIS salary and the livelihood of HIS team members want this? Would it kill him to support something he supposedly "used to" support, when it doesn't affect "his" team at all?

Why does he go out of his way (seemingly) to trash the entire long format as "dead" when it isn't, and when he knows very well that there is still a lot of support for it??

carolprudm
Aug. 19, 2005, 08:18 AM
Given that my initials are CMP I really have to cringe reading this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

AllyCat
Aug. 19, 2005, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fence2Fence:

Reading it objectively, CMP is stating the reality of the sport and his comments aren’t meant to insult the “has beens”or the upper level riders who are striving to make the team. He's only doing his job, and he’s telling everyone what needs to get done to make a competitive international team.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

F2F: CMP can state his opinion and his job is most certainly to put together winning teams, whether for the short or long term remains up for debate. But whether he means to insult us or not (I think he does, but that's MY opinion), he should not be granted public forum in a magazine where supporters will be insulted. This is not the first time he has made belittling comments to those who aren't on his treasured teams. He consistently makes these classist, demeaning comments about the lower levels.

Remember when he criticized the AEC last year for daring to offer the same prize money to Novice riders as his favorite Advanced riders? He thought that was just terrible that some unknown from any local barn would win the same amount for a 1st place finish as someone wearing a red coat.

I daresay he has a solid enough command of the English language and public speaking skills to NOT say demeaning things like he says to us, particularly since we provide the foundation upon which he gets his horses, riders, and consequently, his job.

farmboy
Aug. 19, 2005, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deltawave:

Why does he go out of his way (seemingly) to trash the entire long format as "dead" when it isn't, and when he knows very well that there is still a lot of support for it?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me say that, while I do not personally care for him, it is because he is being realistic and not emotional. I also recall him sounding a warning way back when, and no one seemed to pay attention. The very fact that your anger is directed towards him and not the FEI shows that you are not seeing the big picture.

Fence To Fence and Jazzy Lady stated it accurately.

tle
Aug. 19, 2005, 08:55 AM
farmboy... i see nowhere that it is stated that we are ONLY angry with MP. We know the FEI is the root of the problem. But as others have noted, MP certainly isn't helping matters and IS insulting a lot more often than someone in his position should be.

Mariequi
Aug. 19, 2005, 09:13 AM
"I daresay he has a solid enough command of the English language and public speaking skills..." - how many conversations have you had with him. I've had a few and this is questionable.

AllyCat
Aug. 19, 2005, 09:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:

Why? I thought you'd never ask. Just where were all the riders at this year's Rolex. Why, they were off in Europe competing at events that Phillips told them to compete at--even if those horse and rider combinations had successfull **** experience they were sent to a CIC THREE star. (Oh, and one at which guess who designed the course.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting point subk...and just look who won the traditional-format, true CCI**** and then look at who placed the best at Luhmuhlen (lets not fool ourselves: it was a CIC****). I realize this is just one event, but it certainly warrants investigation. If Kim is our lone superstar...what is she doing differently than the others? Could it be that she challenges herself to compete at the highest level of the sport so that going across the pond to a CIC****, she found it quite easy on a mount other than her talented Dan and placed 4th? Not that Royal Venture is anything to sneeze at, but he's not her famous Dan...and they still showed well. Hmmmm....

persefne
Aug. 19, 2005, 09:28 AM
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think that I am upset (and others, as well, perhaps) moreso by CMP's attitude towards the many, many riders in this sport than the changing face of something we can't control internationally. I'm smart enough to know the details of the classic 3-day vs the olympic format (those of you who haven't yet, but may be planning to, please don't point out "it's gone, get over it" again). That's not the issue and it's counterproductive. My issue with CMP is his elitist, classist comments (if you're the leading "voice" in our sport in our country, then your words have so much weight) that degrade the large percentage of its American participants. The format support/lackthereof is secondary to what many of us (but not all of us) are upset with in his recent article reflecting his feeelings on the future of American international eventing. REGARDLESS of anything to do with the format, our chef should be illuminating, well-respected, poised, gracious, and diplomatic regarding all public commentary that is directed at and for (i.e., the recent Eventing mag...HELLO! Who does he think his readers ARE?) the very people who participate in our sport here in the US. CMP has almost blatantaly gone out of his way to vocally embody ANYTHING OTHER THAN an illuminating, well-respected, poised, gracious, and diplomatic chef. We may not be able to "get rid of him" for our personal satisfaction (we're not FEI members nor are we his ULRs) but as active members of the sport he represents and consistently "bad mouths," then we have every right to be vocal and justified in our disgust and displeasure. Don't think for a minute that if we weren't asked, that we wouldn't tell him exactly what we thought about his "leadership." He's entitled to his opinion, but being given free-rein to degrade us and our sport in a magazine that is designed *for us* just plain old stinks. I got a lot from the last issue's article on Ingrid Klimke and her dressage clinic this past spring. Great article...designed to educate me and help me. Why waste printspace on material that is just useless (and insulting to) the prime readership? Bad, bad on the parts of the editors, if they let this continue. As a text editor myself, I'll be writing the magazine a letter telling them so.

Hey! After all these pages, I FINALLY got back to the original topic: CMP's article in the recent issue of Eventing! I'm tired of talking about the man himself (opinions are differing, so it's a maddeningly divided issue amongst eventers), so I'll stick to the original topic from now on, I promise!

vineyridge
Aug. 19, 2005, 09:32 AM
Can a wannabe eventer comment?

I read the complete CoTH eventing issue cover to cover and was struck and disheartened by a couple of comments, which put together with the good Captain and ULR's constant support of the short format, made the future very bleak.

First, (since I read from back to front) was the statement by the head of the USEA long format committee that they have essentially given up on trying to save the long format at the advanced level since the coach and ULRs prefer the short format and are not interested in helping with the project.

Second was a statement attributed to Jessica Pye and one other of the winning region teams at NAYRC that they wouldn't have participated if the event had been long format, since they didn't want to endanger their horses. Now the horse that Pye rode is, according to the article, fifteen with "long standing soundness issues." Other girl's horse was not described.

Then you have the Captain stating his strongly held opinion that the long format is and should be dead for riders aspiring to international competition.

As the brain turns, several thoughts emerge.

Why the h*ll is this Pye person eventing in any format at advanced on a horse with long standing soundness problems? (I feel the same way about Windfall II). If a horse isn't fit enough to run a steeplechase and roads and tracks, it certainly doesn't need to be doing cross country at a one or two star level, even if it can survive the experience and go on to show jump. To me, competing such a horse, no matter how good it may be, verges on animal abuse and is definitely poor horsemanship. It appears to me that one result of the short format is and will be basically unsound horses competing.

I would guess that Jessica Pye and her teammates all aspire to make an international team. With the Captain's and other ULRs'clear preferences (stated over and over, ad nauseum), the kids are being brainwashed, so they state their (horse health) related preferences for the short format. Now we all know there is NO medical evidence that the short format at advanced is a miracle career preserver for horses. But when something is said over and over, it becomes the truth, even when it really isn't the truth.

When those two are added to the USEA giving up on the high level events to focus on the 1 and 2 *, it looks to me like a losing battle, even at the bottom of the food chain. The kids who want to compete advanced won't enter horses in long format events because the Captain says the world has changed so much that wasting time conditioning and preparing for the endurance phase is time that could more profitably be spent preparing for dressage. (I'm reading both the Captain's and the kids' minds with that statement; have never actually seen it in print.)

You can't have the role models and part of the establishment that a young rider wants to enter denigrating what another part of the establishment is hoping to preserve though young riders and have the long format preservation effort succeed.

So I say, either "Shut up, CMP, on the long format/short format issue and give the USEA's efforts a chance or go back to Britain and coach your daughter to excel at mislabeled CICs over courses that YOU design for CIC horses."

Have I killed this thread? I'm great at that.

Janet
Aug. 19, 2005, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I daresay he has a solid enough command of the English language and public speaking skills... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll second Mariequi on this. He certainly speaks English, and he seems to be able to conduct a coherent lesson/clinic.

But the "public speaking" I witnessed at last year's USEA meeting was - memorably bad. I remembered how badly he spoke more than I remembered what he was trying to say. The man needs to sign up with Toastmasters.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 19, 2005, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mariequi:
"I daresay he has a solid enough command of the English language and public speaking skills..." - how many conversations have you had with him. I've had a few and this is questionable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had the same thought.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 19, 2005, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why the h*ll is this Pye person eventing in any format at advanced on a horse with long standing soundness problems? (I feel the same way about Windfall II). If a horse isn't fit enough to run a steeplechase and roads and tracks, it certainly doesn't need to be doing cross country at a one or two star level, even if it can survive the experience and go on to show jump. To me, competing such a horse, no matter how good it may be, verges on animal abuse and is definitely poor horsemanship. It appears to me that one result of the short format is and will be basically unsound horses competing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't know Jessica, but I can tell you that there was more than one horse competing in the CCI***/** at Foxhall that WOULD NOT have been there if the format had been long. I can also tell you that more than one rider planned/actually did compete in the CCI's at both Foxhall and Jersey Fresh. (I am refering to riders that completed the xc.)

Make of that what you will. It is a change from the past.

Also, note that to qualify for the NAYRC you need a CCI. This is going to push more short format CCI's onto the calendar at the one and two star level. The young rider market is going to demand it.

barbaraG
Aug. 19, 2005, 01:41 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

How about that if I hit the Lotto for Mega Millions, that I buy some land, build my own Real 3 day Four Star Course and invite All my COTH friends to come and play??!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

BarbaraG
GWV/ having happy thoughts!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

RHdobes
Aug. 19, 2005, 11:06 PM
No fair, barbaraG, (!)I(!) am planning to win the Mega Millions lotto---I bought a ticket for tonight's (Friday) drawing. And as long as I don't check the results, I can believe that I MIGHT have won!

I've only done two horse trials. I NQ'd on the first (4' beginner cross-country http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif fence?!) In the second (2nd after dressage, clean stadium, and jumps a BIT challenging for the lowest level), we garnered a 4th place---my favorite ribbon/"win" EVER!

Around the same time, a friend and I built what would be considered a Training Level cross country course on 40 empty acres owned by the barn where we boarded. Among others, we had a three high-wide fallen oak tree, a Trakehner, elephant trap, drop jump, cord of wood jump---she was an imaginative and talented young woman at the time. And when we later put on a show for the benefit of the USET (at the time), she drafted me to help her to build jumps and wings that were as good as any I've seen on a Hunter/Jumper C/B level.

If I had the money, I would throw my support behind those "traditional" three-days that still exist in the U.S., and I would create more LLR-friendly events for those not quite up to that level. I've loved the sport since the first time I saw Princess Anne (barely) ride her dressage test in Montreal. And when I saw her fall off her horse, I thought, "I can do that! I can fall off with the best!"

I was hooked.

So, we're "smurfs"? We LLRs don't matter? We don't deserve prizes as good as those offered ULRs? I'd like to give you the single-fingered salute you deserve, Captain!

And as for Phillips' contempt for non-international, LLRs, I am copying part of another post that I've written before. It sums how I feel about showing and competing, both with horses and dogs...


"....At the first Rolex invitational, there was a heavyish young woman who had a large, draftX looking Pinto horse. This horse was the "alternate" for the international riders in case one of the other "borrowed" horses was unable to compete.

Lucky for this young woman, all the horses could compete, and she was allowed to compete with her clunky-looking mount.

CMP on "Lincoln" (I believe) was eliminated on cross-country. This young woman and her draftX horse NOT ONLY made it cross country but FINISHED the entire competition. Sure, the two of them finished last, BUT THEY FINISHED, and they finished AHEAD of CMP.

This young woman and her horse have been one of the GREAT inspirations of my life, that has shaped my thoughts, dreams, and goals both towards eventing and showing in dog obedience. That is, to do your best with what you have and have great joy and pleasure in what you accomplish, no matter how small...."


Shame, SHAME on Captain Mark Phillips for doing what a GREAT, well-know dog obedience competitor and trainer calls, "Stealing My Joy."

denny
Aug. 20, 2005, 04:47 AM
OK, so I was trying to make a stupid little joke about Jimmy and me being worthless has-beens. Maybe we`d adapt to present realities and get it done nowadays, maybe not. I know that Mike Plumb would ride rings around anyone, in any era, ditto Bruce, and a few others.
That`s not my problem here. The big problem is that because of what I see as an elevated sense of hostility from Mark, and SOME of the current big guns toward those of us who still believe, very deeply, in the classic format, that a wedge is being driven between "them", and "us".
Don`t you all sense this? A couple of weeks ago, John Williams and Mark Weisbecker gave a steeplechase clinic before the training 3-day at GMHA, and it was a FABULOUS example of how it should be, a true symbiotic relationship between lower and upper levels. Not the arrogant, patronising, demeaning attitude we`re getting from some of the leadership, including, very notably, from CMP.
Our sport needs both ends of the competitive spectrum working together, and in the past we`ve had inspired leaders who`ve promoted that. Way back when, people like Alexander Mackay-Smith and Ed Harris, then Neil Ayer, Gen. Burton, Eileen Thomas, Jimmy Wofford, Loris Henry, Walter Strauss, so many others that I know I`m neglecting half of them.
Are our current leaders consensus builders or dividers? If you are not happy, mobilise and let the world know, not just here, but through letters to whoever you feel needs to hear your voice.
This sport belongs to ALL OF US, and we can`t let it get highjacked by any one point of view.
(Having said that, oh so righteously, if I had dictatorial power, I`d bring back the long format in a nanosecond!!!)

frugalannie
Aug. 20, 2005, 05:55 AM
Hear, hear Denny!

As far as I'm concerned, you can be President-for-life.

I have a memory of Mike Plumb briefly having the role of team coach or chef d'equip (sp?) some time ago and hearing that the riders at the time gave him no respect and basically refused to listen. Is this recollection incorrect? If true, it might explain why neither you, nor he nor Jimmy are in charge of the US team. Who wants to deal with that?

Or maybe it's because you all write better than most riders can talk?

flyingchange
Aug. 20, 2005, 06:01 AM
I know Karen is an active competitor currently, but my vote goes to her to be the new chef.

People keep saying that Jimmy/Denny/insert other name of person we admire are too smart to take on this job.

Does this mean we are going to be forever stuck with ninkumpoops such as the current one who refuse to acknowledge the leadership responsibilities incumbent in the job? I mean, even my own dog knows better than to bite the hand ... but I digress.

JDufort
Aug. 20, 2005, 07:28 AM
the "win the lottery and build a classic 3 day venue" dream is mine - and I already have the land!

it can happen...

meantime, pooling our funds and volunteer hours to help event organizers willing to run full-format 3 days is clearly something that we can do.

3dazey
Aug. 20, 2005, 04:40 PM
Alright, I'm stepping in here to stand up for someone I don't know. The horse at young riders' that won is sixteen, and if you read the article you'd know he was probably off-track, blind in one eye, and this very amazing girl managed to bring him up through the levels to advanced. A horse off the track with issues is nothing new, neither is a horse competing at the upper levels with said issues. PLEASE don't fly off the handle and call this abuse. If you have seen photos of this horse jumping, you see "the look" in his eye. He loves it. I assure you he must be well-maintained. He would not have gotten through the jogs if he was crippled or even off. And the rider did not say she thought the long-format was dangerous or harmful, she just said she realized that at his age a long-format would not have been a wise choice for him. Ergo, she felt lucky to be able to compete.

We all realize that one thing the short format allows for is for older horses to continue to run at "prestigious" events, where in the past they would have hung out at CICs and horse trials. Not good or bad, just the way it is.

deltawave
Aug. 20, 2005, 05:41 PM
I agree. There is no shame (and quite a lot of good horsemanship, it sounds like) to recognize one's own and one's horse's limits. If an older campaigner can't stand up to the rigors of conditioning for a full-blown three day event, and is still happily competing in Horse Trials, how is this abuse?

Yes, I'll definitely allow that there may be a misconception here in assuming the short format CCI is "easier" on a horse in terms of the conditioning required and the demands of the actual endurance day. That misconception, if it is a misconception, needs to be proven.

We all are pretty sure that the demands of the long format and the short format are pretty similar on the horse in terms of the miles required to prepare. We're pretty sure that the long format is no harder on the horse than the short format in terms of the actual competition. But we're not 100% sure yet.

If a rider makes a decision for his/her horse based on a solid knowledge of that horse's abilities and limitations, and is done with the horse's welfare in mind, who are any of us to criticize from afar?

And NAYRC is not an advanced competition.

Gnep
Aug. 20, 2005, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We all are pretty sure that the demands of the long format and the short format are pretty similar on the horse in terms of the miles required to prepare. We're pretty sure that the long format is no harder on the horse than the short format in terms of the actual competition. But we're not 100% sure yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deltawave, even as a supporter of the 3D and one that has ridden plenty of them at 3 different levels, I think that is hogwash.
The steepelchase is very tough on a horses legs and takes a lot out of them. 2 to 4 thousand meters at those speeds, with jumps and the g forces on the legs in the turns is not a walk in the park. Especialy if there is still X-C to go. Even more if the weather conditions, to much sun or to much rain, made the footing problematic.
And naturaly there is a good chance for injuries
So lets be honest, at least.

But quiet simply that is part of the game.

As it is part of the game that Poles in X-C do not fall down and if things go realy wrong it hurts a lot, at least

RunForIt
Aug. 20, 2005, 06:42 PM
Gnep - I'm posting this thread as a response to you, but also as a response to the entire Long format - short format argument...to you, because you make a solid point - yes, steeplechase adds to the concussion on the horse's legs, yes, the short format does not do that. In the now countless posts arguing the merits of one format against the other, SOMEONE noted: NOT ALL HORSES ARE 3-DAY HORSES! If a horse can not hold up to the rigors of the 3-day, all well and good, enter him/her in events that match his/her strengths. All runners cannot run the 26.1 miles required of a marathon. Fine - there are distances suited to their abilities. The marathon distance has not been changed for those runners and labeled a marathon, because the international federation thought it best for some types of runners. No matter how hard people may try to rationalize the change to the short format, that's exactly what has happened to the 3-day event.

TheOrangeOne
Aug. 20, 2005, 07:19 PM
People have issues. USEA claims to support long format one instance, but contines to support "the man" I would renew my membership for the magazine, buit fi they are going to put him in it, I'd rather not. We need to have soem CCN's, make the long format more affordable, and THEN work at getting it back at the higher levels. JMHO.

cu later
Aug. 20, 2005, 08:34 PM
Well paint me blue and call me a smurf. I'll never ride the upper levels nor do I have an interest to. Mrs. Later, on the other hand is doing her first 1* in October and I couldn't be happier for her. It bothers me that Eventing in the US is being driven by the FEI. Maybe the way to go is CCN's why young riders has to be driven by the FEI is beyond me.

I think it is important to realize that the good captain does represent all of us and is looking out for our best interests. After all he is a member of the USEA Board of Governors. Yep, the good captain gets to play both sides of the fence. With the comments he has been making, how can anyone say he has our best interests at heart. Maybe we should be looking at why he is on the BOG and how do we get him off it? Maybe the good captain should be walking the USEA plank!

cu later

Gnep
Aug. 20, 2005, 08:35 PM
Runforit,
Exactly, some are tremendos HT horses, and riders, they are just fantastic. Some are just the same at the 3D, they just come alive at it.

But lets not BS each other, the longer the distance, the higher the speed the more we take out of the horses. I don't need a Vet or a scientific study for that, logic is good enough for me. The more you use it the more you wear it done.
But that is part of the game, that simple.
If you ride 3D you ride less schows, if you care about your horse. The training is part of it, but in a 3D we cramp several HT into 1 to 2 hours.
OrangeHorse if the 3D survives it will be on the Natinal Level not on the FEI Level. It will split Eventing to a certain amount, but if both parties are smart they will be able to benefit from each other.
Next to everybody can swim, bic and run, but just a few can compet in a Iron Man/woman.

Thatt could be the future of the 3D

AllyCat
Aug. 20, 2005, 11:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gnep:
[QUOTE]Deltawave, even as a supporter of the 3D and one that has ridden plenty of them at 3 different levels, I think that is hogwash.
The steepelchase is very tough on a horses legs and takes a lot out of them. 2 to 4 thousand meters at those speeds, with jumps and the g forces on the legs in the turns is not a walk in the park. Especialy if there is still X-C to go. Even more if the weather conditions, to much sun or to much rain, made the footing problematic.
And naturaly there is a good chance for injuries
So lets be honest, at least.

But quiet simply that is part of the game.

As it is part of the game that Poles in X-C do not fall down and if things go realy wrong it hurts a lot, at least </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gnep...right before the Atlanta OG, everyone was really concerned about the effects of the heat and humidity on the 3-Day horses. Research went on for years and one of the studies (wish I could find it on the 'net somewhere!) showed that steeplechase was the EASIEST part of the endurance phase for the horses to do and the EASIEST on their bodies. I remember reading it in the now-defunct Dressage & CT and wish I still had the issue to quote here. Can anyone else remember this or have a link?

I realize you don't care about scientific studies, but since that is a good part of how we have arrived where we are today as humans and/or eventers, I think they are valid. I realize the scientific method is apparently out of vogue with some in this country and the corporate media that pushes it, but it has served us well for centuries. I'll buy a scientific study any day over my gut feeling about something without further evidence to show my gut is correct.

Denny, you'd be a benevolent dictator no doubt. I am working on my letter to USEA for MP's continued nasty comments in his column and will send one to USEF too. I'm tired of his condescending attitude. It's inappropriate and hurts the sport.

bigdreamer
Aug. 20, 2005, 11:43 PM
1. runforit- thanks for again emphasising that point. I have a Lucinda Green XC tape- and she says in the very beginning how lucky she is to have competed so many horses at the 4* level. THEY ARE SPECIAL HORSES. sorry if you're racetrack reject or 2000lb warmblood just isn't cut out for eventing either, but that's life.

2. They say that short formats will allow horses to compete more. How is this saving wear and tear on their legs? Ok, so instead of 1 long format a year, let's do 3 short formats. That'll do wonders for their legs.

3. Horses recover while galloping. By taking out steeplechase, and adding more and more technical jumps to a XC course, we take away their breathing room, add more stress compacted into the shorter distance and increase risk for injury with technicality and fatigue.

4. If a horse has a subtle injury, wouldn't you rather it show up on steeplechase/phase C when you can more easily evaluate their gait where as on XC you are jumping so much the chances of missing it are higher?

to prove that the injuries sustained on SC are a direct result of SC and not jumping at all you would have to run steeplechase after XC... and since we already have such a lack of interest in running research on long v. short i highly doubt that'll ever be done.

5. How are people warming up for the short format? In what little research that has been done, people are doing their own mock a, b, c. How does this save wear and tear? and, it's on unregulated ground. Maybe it's not as intense, but it's the same idea. maybe what we need to do is modify the steeplechase to a straight line so that the stress of the horse having to turn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif is taken away. I mean, lord knows these horses haven't been conditioned to build up their strength for this stuff or anything. Properly prepare your horse and you won't run into problems. and if you run into soundness issues? YOUR HORSE WASN'T BUILT FOR THIS. Humans have knee problems and arthritis and such that prevent them from competing in sports... why is it suddenly a surprise that some horses don't hold up for this stuff?

6. From what my "uneducated lower level eye" saw at an event that ran a 1* long and short together- I noticed the long format horses seemed more manageable on XC. 3 horses in the short slipped and fell from what i noted to be having a little bit of an "edge" in them. Maybe I'm off there, I DO NOT even claim to know the whole story behind it all- but that's what I saw.

7. The conditioning leading up to the event, again from what little research has been done, is pretty darn similar. Your horse has to be just as fit to tackle a long and short format. That would be the wear and tear I'd worry about. I don't understand how taking out a 5 minute gallop and roads and tracks before going on XC is going to allow your horse to compete so much more often.



why not just make XC jumps into stadium jumps and make them as technical as we want and indoors so the weather can't affect the footing at all and wrap our horses in bubble wrap while we're at it.


this arguement between who is right and who is wrong is going to continue until there is PROOF. but no one seems itnerested in proving anything, they just wanna fight about it and call the other one ignorant. No one wants to DO anything. I admit, I am guilty of it, too. But meanwhile, can't we be mature about it and not diss the other half of our fellow competitors publicly? Can't we work together to try and figure out what is best for the ones who can't actually speak out loud about this whole thing? I don't like being called a stupid lower level rider just because I don't have sponsors or rich parents to buy me nice horses just as much as I'm sure ULR don't like being called stupid b/c competing at the upper levels clearly makes them smarter than the rest of us. Honestly, let's just grow up, act mature, and do the math and figure out what is going on inside our horses without acting like second graders.

*edited to say i hope my sarcasm is noted. And, also, that should vet research prove that the long format (even though tried and true for many horses that competed into their upper teens- are 20+ year olds really gunna hold up in the short format?) is terrible for horses to do at all, perhaps I'll switch my POV.

and, also, that at an event where they ran both a long and short 1*, my "uneducated lower level rider" eye noticed the long format horses appearing to be- overall- more manageable on XC. not that some of the short format horses weren't http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but 3 of the short format horses slipped and fell because- again from what I noted but do not pretend to know the whole story about- they appeared to have an edge that wasn't in the long format horses.

canterlope
Aug. 21, 2005, 03:19 AM
A quick FYI concerning who actually hires Mr. Phillips. He is employed by the USEF through the Eventing High Performance Committee. However, I was recently told by a member of this committeee that when Mr. Phillips' contract last came up for renewal, it was not brought before the committee.

Also, I find it very interesting that Mr. Phillips has gone from pretty much ordering Rolex Kentucky to put on an Individual Four Star Championship every year, to saying what a shame it is to lose the Three Star and Four Star Classic format but that's the way it has to be and the One and Two Stars need to continue with classic format events, to now saying that the classic Three-Day Event format is and should be dead at all levels. All in less than 1 year.

I fully realize that Mr. Phillips is trying to do his job and his focus is on making the US team competitive in the short format arena, but this does not excuse his behavior and attitude towards the classic format and those who are trying to preserve it. It is possible for both formats to co-exist and not at the expense of one or the other. Why he feels it necessary to trash the classic format in order to bolster his own position is beyond my comprehension.

RunForIt
Aug. 21, 2005, 03:39 AM
AllyCat - Dr. Pat MayCuth was very involved in the heat studies prior to the Atlanta Olympics; you can get her contact numbers from the USEA.

Sannois
Aug. 21, 2005, 03:41 AM
Also, I find it very interesting that Mr. Phillips has gone from pretty much ordering Rolex Kentucky to put on an Individual Four Star Championship every year, to saying what a shame it is to lose the Three Star and Four Star Classic format but that's the way it has to be and the One and Two Stars need to continue with classic format events, to now saying that the classic Three-Day Event format is and should be dead at all levels. All in less than 1 year.
YES! Exactly Canterlope! And now WHO can say he has our best interest at heart with all that occuring in less than a year??
I was searching around for other threads on this, and on the 16th page of threads, on this forum, I found another one with the captains editorial, I could not bump it as its locked! Very interesting!

RunForIt
Aug. 21, 2005, 03:53 AM
Gnep - I am having some difficulty deciding where you are with support of the Long Format...yes, no room for BS here. Obviously, the steeplechase will take something out of a horse (My times for 30 Km road races - 18.6 miles - are faster than my marathon times - marathon didtance is 26.1 miles). Yes, logic tells me it takes more out of me because the distance is longer; those last miles take an incredible amount out of you - but that's what makes the distance a MARATHON! So what's your point? Is it bad for the horse to compete under those criteria? My logic tells me that if a horse is prepared/conditioned properly for the endurance phases of a 3-day, then it is prepared to take part in a 3-day event. My logic also tells me that if during the preparation, my horse's physical abilities begin to show signs of struggle to complete workouts, then I need to rethink my goals for this horse's competitions. Some people use logic, some don't, that's the beauty of scientific data. Again, what point are you making about the Long format and the Short format?

deltawave
Aug. 21, 2005, 05:38 AM
Logic told us that estrogen therapy would prevent heart attacks in women.

Logic told us that getting rid of abnormal heart beats would lower the risk of sudden death in heart attack survivors.

Randomized trials and many dozens of dead people later, we now know that logic was WRONG.

DATA are what we need. Until then we can only go with passion and the desire in our hearts to preserve the Classic format. Now, passion and desire can get you a long way, but it sure don't hurt to have data along for the ride. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

flutie1
Aug. 21, 2005, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mariequi:
"I daresay he has a solid enough command of the English language and public speaking skills..." - how many conversations have you had with him. I've had a few and this is questionable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just catching up on this thread, and I'm rolling on the floor howling with laughter over your posting, Marie! The dachshunds are sure I've lost it!
Thanks for a good chuckle!

Flutie

Gnep
Aug. 21, 2005, 06:25 AM
Runforit,
Quiet simple, I grew up eventing and have learned in over 30 years to except the facts of the sport. I am just dead honest about it and I don't bull shit myself.
I know if I prepare a horse for a 3D carreer ( 3D= for me long format ) that I prepare it for a brutaly tough job. My old coach in the 70s called it this way " HTs eat horses for breakfast, 3Ds have them for breakfast, lunch and dinner ".

But that has never stoped me to prepare a horse for 3D and when ever possible to compet.
Have I questioned myself, many times, especialy when the s... had hit he fan.

The point about 3D is quiet simple, it is such a mayor achievement to bring a horse up through the ranks from Novice to Prelim, hanging in there dispite all the ups and downs.
Geting to that first startbox, A, and than about 90 minutes later crossing the finishline of D. That moment is so very special, the ultimate payback for al the sweat, time, money and what ever else.
And it should not be just that onetime, the I have done it thing. No, have the next one in sight and prepare to qualify for the next higher level

I have no point for the modified bastard. Its just a HT on steroids and HTs are just the means to get to the 3D, period.

AllyCat, if you point out those studies, than you have to point out the studies done on racetracks, about stress on bones, tendons and joints. There are plenty of them. There are g-load studies, differant speeds in the turns, there are impact studies on joints etc.. If you google you will find a lot of material that will show you how tough high speed galloping is on a horse.

When I say I don't care about those wonderful studies, it does not mean that I don't know them and that I don't read them.

RunForIt
Aug. 21, 2005, 07:56 AM
Gnep - thanks for your comments; I truly think that we need to listen to each other and think - the latter helps conversations and understanding.

I remain dumbfounded that money and special interest groups have so bastardized and taken over our sport. I cannot imagine it happening to any other - what if flat road cyclists declared that mountain ascents were too hard on the legs and managed to persuade the international folks to stop having those ascents in the Tour de France?

AllyCat
Aug. 21, 2005, 08:44 AM
Gnep, I can believe flat racing at speed is really hard on horses. Remember Phase E in eventing? After all the XC jumping of D, the horses went on to do a flat out gallop for a mile or more. They eliminated it because it was hard on the horses. So I can believe flat racing causes a lot of problems.

But...we must consider many of those horses studied are very, very young with respect to our physically mature event horses. Also, steeplechase does not run at the same speed as a flat race (maybe a real steeplechase does, but not at a 3DE).

I did Google some searches about that and read some of the studies that were available full text. Thanks for the suggestion. When I am not so tired, I will read more of them.

I'm jealous you got to do so many actual 3 Days! I'm hoping to have another horse ready before they get rid of those too...a good possibility if the likes of MP continue to spew this crap in magazine columns and other forums.

Gnep
Aug. 21, 2005, 09:34 AM
AllyCat,
Yes those studies are done with Gallopers, they are very young horses and they go much faster, but that does not change physiks or what those studies suggest.
The average speed sounds not to bad, but you do ride far above the average speed probably 700 plus, because evry jump costs time and you do not dragrace out of the box and you do your first jump that day on the chase and it takes awhile till you and your horse have found a nice smooth rhythem, basicly after the first 500 you are playing catch up.
Heartrate at around 700mpm is somewhere between 170 to 190, 3 minuts to 5 minuts, temp if taken after the chase 103 and more, if that is not a nice work out, that takes something out of a horse, than all we needed in the D-Box a fast jog out and of to the startbox and not those armies of helpers with ice and alkohol water, sponges and scrapers. Road and Track are defenetly not the reason for it.

subk
Aug. 21, 2005, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gnep:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We all are pretty sure that the demands of the long format and the short format are pretty similar on the horse in terms of the miles required to prepare. We're pretty sure that the long format is no harder on the horse than the short format in terms of the actual competition. But we're not 100% sure yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...I think that is hogwash.
The steeplechase is very tough on a horses legs and takes a lot out of them. 2 to 4 thousand meters at those speeds, with jumps and the g forces on the legs in the turns is not a walk in the park. Especially if there is still X-C to go. Even more if the weather conditions, to much sun or to much rain, made the footing problematic.
And naturally there is a good chance for injuries
So lets be honest, at least. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes let's be honest. Steeplechase adds a physical punishment to the classic format. I can give you that. But here is my question. We know that human studies have shown that a sharp warm-up that increases the heart rate at or above the rate for which it going to be sustained at in the actual test improves the body's function for the test. We even know that some riders are trying to mimic ABC for their CIC warm-ups. How many horses damage themselves on XC because their cardio systems have not have the advantage to being optimally prepared for the job at hand?

Several years ago Wofford told me that statistics showed that there were less total reported injured (per starter) to horses competing in advanced 3-days than those competing in advanced H.T.s He spoke as if he'd seen the data. We do KNOW that that data should exist since that type of information is required in the TDs reports and has been for years. What I want to know is why the FEI or anybody else hasn't released/published it.

My point is yes, Phase B adds stress to the whole test, and adds increased opportunity for injury. HOWEVER if the overall likelihood of injury for the test in total is decreased or remains the same with the inclusion of phase C then the additional stress caused by the stage is mute.

RunForIt
Aug. 21, 2005, 10:49 AM
subK - what sort of data is available on competition horses, both for 3-day and horse trials? I'd like to be able to back up my opinions with what's actually KNOWN. So, what's the important stuff to look for? Thanks!

subk
Aug. 21, 2005, 11:32 AM
RunForIt--TD's at both the H.T. and the FEI level are required to submit at the completion of a competition a long report in which (among other things) significant injuries to both horses and riders, falls of horses and riders and any apparent causes, are reported to the governing bodies. What that means is the data has been collected and exists somewhere. What it doesn't mean is that someone has analyzed the data and made it public.

My information comes from a personal conversation with Wofford that took place at least 2 or 3 years ago--so we weren't speaking about the current loss of the classic format per say. My info is hearsay, but personally, I put a lot of stock in "hearsay" from Jim Wofford.

But, again it comes back to the point that FEI wants to do what the FEI wants to do, to hell with the facts or the welfare of the horses.

RunForIt
Aug. 21, 2005, 11:54 AM
subK - I take it that you've done "several" real 3-day events. I am going to assume that you have a respect for and bond with the horses that carried you around those 3-days. Finishing a horse trial is the best feeling - I am so one with my horse. Has it ever occurred to you that you were having this incredible rush at the expense of another living creature's welfare?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My old coach in the 70s called it this way " HTs eat horses for breakfast, 3Ds have them for breakfast, lunch and dinner ". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This quote from Gnep's earlier post really got my attention. I've never worked long with a coach - running, swimming, nor riding - that I didn't respect - if my coach said this to me, it would have shook my confidence in what I was doing. If I thought I was hurting the horse, I couldn't go on with my plans for a 3-day.

Did you?; I doubt it seriously. Neither did Lucinda, nor Bruce, nor Mark Todd, or Jimmy Wofford, nor the countless others who didn't get their names in the lights, but got around the courses on horses that they loved.

Ellie K
Aug. 21, 2005, 12:53 PM
The FEI published the first safety report some time ago and announced this via their press news. It was announced on this board, but no one took much interest.

The report is here (http://www.horsesport.org/C/c_05_03.html)

pwynnnorman
Aug. 21, 2005, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I know if I prepare a horse for a 3D carreer ( 3D= for me long format ) that I prepare it for a brutaly tough job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, Gnep, talk about being brutally honest! In your quote you point to what lies squarely behind the very reality of which you speak when you mention accepting the facts about the sport.

"That brutally tough job."

When I think, as a breeder, of exposing something I've spent years and years and years to produce to a "brutally tough job," (nd the risks inherent within), oh how I'd love to throw caution to the wind and say, "nothing else matters but the tradition."

But, THESE DAYS, no matter how much we may bemoan the fact, other things do matter. How I feel for you purists, but the horse world isn't standing still. For example, until Gnep says that the new format is also a "brutally tough job," whether the stats are there to show it or not, even defenders IMPLY that the new format is NOT so "brutally tough," right?

Indeed, the situation reminds me of those honking big SUVs that are so popular now. Oh, golly, I'll bet it's fun to drive them, but if gas prices keep going up, there will be very, very few who will be able to afford them. They're expensive due to the gas prices in the same way that "brutally tough job" makes eventing expenses for organizers--and even owners who have to risk talented horses just for the love of a sport.

Again, though, don't take the analogy literally. I'm not comparing the 3D horse to the SUV, but rather enjoying the classic sport to driving the powerful, fun, gas guzzler.

deltawave
Aug. 21, 2005, 02:47 PM
Ah, but if one is heading towards an inevitable collision at 60mph (or cantering downhill to a skinny combination followed by a drop) which would you rather be driving: the big SUV (a 3 day event horse) or the Yugo? (the one who isn't cut out for the job?) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gnep
Aug. 21, 2005, 05:02 PM
pwynnnorman

Do you think a Grand Prix Jumping, Grand Prix Dressage or a Advanced HT is a piece of cake and geting there ???

A horse is like a bank account if you do sport with it, no deposits just withdrawels. Every Jump is a withdrawel, every training session etc. Especialy if you get past the starter levels, you constantly push the limits a little further and every single time you drain that account more. That is the fact.
knowing that fact and standing by it and not tying a pink ribbon around it does not mean that one has not a very intimate bond with those wonderful animals and cares very deeply about them. If the modified were about protecting the animal, than one woud have lessend the pounding they take in X-C. But I bet you in the long run the X-Cs will become more demanding, because the rstrain of ABC is gone.
ABC kinde put a lid on things.

pwynnnorman
Aug. 21, 2005, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think a Grand Prix Jumping, Grand Prix Dressage or a Advanced HT is a piece of cake and geting there ??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Gnep, I've trained two horses to the FEI levels and own an Advanced level eventer. Yeah, I know what you are saying and was not implying anything whatsoever about pieces of cake.

Please see that I was responding directly to your use of the phrase "brutally tough job"--especially your use of the word "brutally." You take pride in the "brutal" part. I ADMIRED (well, still do) that aspect of the sport: there's no sport in the world like it.

But I can't support it because it can't support me--and to keep going at that level, you have to be realistic. I think the brutal realism of the economics is what everyone is trying to hard to set aside in this argument. Alas, there IS no arguing about it, as someone else implied: if no one enters, the organizers will not offer it. If fewer owners are willing to dedicate a valuable animal to a sport which is a high risk for it (higher than "necessary," perhaps--and, no, I don't like that word either, but can't think of a better one), then what? THEN what?

It was wonderful, 25 years ago, with the Team at Ledyard where LeGoff would match up the best horse-rider teams based on the horses and riders available--but back then, the emphasis was ON "available."

Today, given the incredible rise in the quality of top level event horses AND the incredible degree of talent the sport requires, that kind of thing is out of the question for the same reason that the sport has had to accept alternatives to stay viable.

I guess I just don't really understand why this debate continues. Mark Phillips is hardly the only arrogant personality out there! The way he is attacked (well, I think it's just something of a sport here, now), you'd think that most BNTs were wallflowers!

RAyers
Aug. 21, 2005, 06:15 PM
RunForIt,

What Gnep's coach said was very honest. The MEANING behind that statement is that if you don't spend the time to train, condition, vet, and otherwise prepare your horse, they will NEVER do a 3-day. Gnep, is right. Every fence, every gallop step takes away from the animal if you are not ready. That was the beauty of the long-format. It was the TRUE test of HORSEMANHIP - NOT riding ability, not pocketbook, not tack, not trainer. The long format 3-day is a test to see if you as a horse owner/rider have the savy to prepare a horse without wasting the animal to be at the top of its game on a specific day. That is what I consider horsemanship. You have to understand the management of a high performance athelete and partner, know when to push, when to back off and when to walk away. THAT takes guts and knowledge. The short format diminishes the need for a person to be a horseman.

Reed

RunForIt
Aug. 21, 2005, 06:22 PM
Thanks Reed, and I think I really knew what Gnep was saying...I over-reacted to the literal idea of the words. Mea culpa http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Gnep
Aug. 21, 2005, 07:51 PM
Hihihihi Reed.

every Wetback First Class should have Reed.

Thanks budy.

We will loose one more thing, the ability to listen and feel what that animal under you is telling you


pwynnnorman I still believe that there will be room for the 3D, maybe more room than people think. it will not be within the FEI. There are a lot of thriving horse sports that are not part of the FEI, part of the USEquestrien.

The 3D is not defined by the 3 letters CCI, but by 4 letters ABCD.

Runforit
no problem I am used to take punches and I don't tie pink ribbons around reality.

RAyers
Aug. 21, 2005, 09:48 PM
I actually now see that CMP is RIGHT (from his perspective)! I am not kidding.

After looking at my previous message, it has become very clear about where the FEI, IOC are headed and why CMP and others are supporting it.

The long format 3-day is about horsemanship. Look at the competition records for horses years ago. The great 3-day horses had relatively few major competitions. The emphasis had to be on horsemanship since to get to and to stay at the top one had to be a horseman. They had to know their horses and not waste them.

Today, it is not about horsemanship. It is about economics. A rider has to get and stay at the top however they can. It is all about making a buck. A rider/team has to do whatever they can to keep the sponsors and owners happy.

Horses are comodities. It has been suggested we need to create the legends of yesteryear. I say BULLSHIT. It is no longer possible in the short format. When horses become comodities to be used and tossed once their purpose is fulfilled there can be no greats. Great horses became great because they were part of a TEAM. If you notice the rider is always mentioned when the horse is mentioned (e.g. when you think of Murphy Himself what rider do you think of?). When horsemanship is no longer stressed, the partnerships disappear. Look in the h/j world. There are a few great teams (Chris Kappler and Royal Kaliber), but can anyone tell me who Laura Kraut rides off the top of their head?

CMP, the FEI and IOC are speaking from the perspective of economics. He must keep the team and riders who are at the top on top to please the sponsors. pwynnorman's comments point this out. It is not to say she is wrong but rather to say she has a perspective common at the levels of those who govern the sport. That is why the deabte continues.

Reed

IFG
Aug. 21, 2005, 10:04 PM
I have not read the entire thread, but I applaud Reed's comments. Horsemanship is something that is no longer valued to the extent that it used to be. I came up in the hunter ranks when people prepped their own horses for the ring, and there was no Florida ciircuit. Horses got to rest over the winter. I moved to eventing when the hunter circuit became more about money than horsemanship. Is eventing going to become the same?

Is it going to be about how fancy a horse you have rather than about how you manage the one that you have? Even eventers ride year round now. It seems that no one is willing to give a horse time off for the winter to rejuvenate and learn to enjoy his job again. We have somehow lost the cycle of the effort--train a horse to peak for the three-day, let them down, then pick them up again. When money is the underlying driver, we don't have the incentive to treat our animals this way.

Part of it seems to be that the sport does not have sponsers who can afford to let their horses down for an extended period of time anymore, then it becomes up to the amateurs who do this for fun, not income, to support the format that favors and values horsemanship. The pros can't afford to forgo the income for that extended period of time.

I am nowhere near the level to do a three-day, but I appreciate the beauty of it. I would love to have the format around if I can get to that level. I want to hold onto this display of horsemanship and teamwork between horse and rider. Sorry, it is late, and I am rambling...

deltawave
Aug. 22, 2005, 05:01 AM
Reed, would you care to put your thoughts on paper in a letter to the USEA? They are actively soliciting rebuttals to this latest MP editorial! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And they are pretty tired of hearing from ME by now... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

oskaar
Aug. 22, 2005, 06:45 AM
Y'all--

Please do not crucify the USEA over this subject. Their responsibilities are to govern the events within the US, and they make it possible for each of us to compete in the many events around the country each year. Your membership fees do not pay CMP's salary.

The USEF is responsible for international competition and the team. Less than 25% of USEA members are also members of the USEF, and it is those few who pay his salary. Eventing Magazine merely provides a platform for CMP to give an update on the team status. His forum must come with a disclaimer that his he speaks for himself, and not necessarily for the USEA. While I'm not really a fan of CMP, I do like to hear the team updates, and I'm not about to limit someone their 1st amendment rights.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OrangeHorse:
People have issues. USEA claims to support long format one instance, but contines to support "the man" I would renew my membership for the magazine, buit fi they are going to put him in it, I'd rather not. We need to have soem CCN's, make the long format more affordable, and THEN work at getting it back at the higher levels. JMHO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

persefne
Aug. 22, 2005, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oskaar:
I do like to hear the team updates
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not entirely sure I am convinced that is what his article is about. Having read a number of his "columns" in the British publication Horse and Hound, I am jaded on this issue of his spouting his over-glorified "opinion" on the state of our international team and our sport. I don't deny anyone his/her opinion or First Amendment rights, but when you step back and look at who is doing the speaking...in relation to the other voices that aren't allowed the same projection...it is ridiculous, to me. He can comment on the team, but I disagree with the freedom in which he is allowed (and encouraged) to maintain an unhealthy attitude of self-eggrandizing criticism and self-important proselytizing. Speak to us and for our benefit, not at us like we are ignorant serfs (smurfs!). We are the readership for the Eventing magazine and the members of the USEA, so his tone, attitude, and word choice/choice of material should be designed to inform us, not negate or belittle us as his primary audience. A "team update" is one thing, but a condescending soapbox soliloquy is quite another.

vineyridge
Aug. 22, 2005, 07:32 AM
This is in response to Gry2Yng

Are you saying that some people rode the same horses at Foxhall and Jersey Fresh this year and finished? That's less than two months apart. And aren't they both short format?

I noticed that Andrew Hoy rode Moonfleet who went at Rolex at Luhmuehlen and Jan Thompson rode her Rolex horse there as well. That supposed **** was less than two months after Rolex.

So it appears that the short format results in horses running in more events with a shorter recovery break, if I'm reading what you say correctly. If that's the case, how can we expect short format horses who are worked two to three times more than was common under the long format to hold up?

Gry2Yng
Aug. 22, 2005, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are you saying that some people rode the same horses at Foxhall and Jersey Fresh this year and finished? That's less than two months apart. And aren't they both short format? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that is what I am saying. Some who planned to do both never started Jersey, some started Jersey and did not finish and I would have to go back and look but I think at least one combo finished both.

Also, please note that there is at least one horse that completed the two star at Jersey Fresh that went on to do the two star short at NAYRC.

I am not passing judgement. I am only stating facts. The change to the short format has definitely increased the number of CCI's our upper level horses compete in, and shortened the time off they receive in between CCI's.

subk
Aug. 22, 2005, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oskaar:
While I'm not really a fan of CMP, I do like to hear the team updates, and I'm not about to limit someone their 1st amendment rights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, but this is my number one pet peeve.

Whether or not the USEA magazine chooses to publish Phillip's opinion has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the U.S. Constitution or more specifically the First Amendment. The First Amemedment protects a person from GOVERNMENT retribution for that individual's speech. It does not protect people spouting info in a free market that other people do not care to hear or pay for.

Secondly, seeing that Phillips is not a citizen of the U.S. I don't beleive he has claim to the same Constitutional protections as a citizen.

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion...

Gnep
Aug. 22, 2005, 02:44 PM
subk,

I think you should take a real good look at your constitution, or/and have somebody explain it to you

Mariequi
Aug. 22, 2005, 02:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mariequi:
"I daresay he has a solid enough command of the English language and public speaking skills..." - how many conversations have you had with him. I've had a few and this is questionable.
I'm just catching up on this thread, and I'm rolling on the floor howling with laughter over your posting, Marie! The dachshunds are sure I've lost it!
Thanks for a good chuckle!
Flutie

Sorry, visiting sick brother and just getting caught up. Re the above, Flutie, when himself (Cappy, like Big Brother 6) was reporting at Conyers in 1996 that Dorothy was not going to be competing (which greatly disappointed us all), I thought maybe I could get away with saying I didn't understand him and therefore wouldn't have to accept a withdrawal and/or substitution. Just kidding, but it was a fleeting thought.

denny
Aug. 22, 2005, 02:59 PM
It constantly strikes me that the COTH BB analyses are articulate, pointed, and well reasoned. PLEASE!-Don`t just talk to one another. Expand that clout by expressing your ideas to the various governing bodies, whether USEF or USEA. Don`t worry about "coming down too hard" on the USEA. Jo Whitehouse knows full well that she is one of the good guys, and she won`t take offense. Our leaders need to be reminded that the American way presumes a certain level of DEMOCRACY---are you listening Mark Phillips?---, not just a slavish bowing down to the pronouncements of the self appointed elite.
So guys, WRITE THOSE LETTERS. Tell the US horse world what you think. I`ve been trying to fight this fight in my Chronicle articles, but a few more voices, more impassioned and articulate than mine, I might add, will sure help the cause.

LE
Aug. 22, 2005, 03:11 PM
Wait...are you guys saying that now that the XC has been just reduced to one phase that they will run it more like a HT ALL on one day??? At the higher levels?? I don't think that's A) Possible or B) Fair. that's not what three day eventing is about. I mean, it has become four day eventing with needing two days for dressage to accomidate the amount of competitors.

Deltawave--I understand and agree with you. If what you are saying is-hey, yah, fine..let the Olympic riders school their thing, but Don't take away my three day at Prelim level because of it....you are RIGHT. Can it not be up to the show venue to continue to host three days with the four phases??? I mean, that's like the A circuit getting rid of the Hack Division in hunters, but getting rid of Hack for all levels would majorly SUCK for those who enjoy it(well, bad argument, but you get the idea). Why punish riders at a different level for something the 'top guns' don't want to do???

Having said that, I remember in the mid nineties when Checkmate HT held the Canadian Open and WOW..what a priveledge to watch the riders come up from the US. Part of me was happy when I was done my ride!! Hahahah. But it made me wonder....why so few three days? I mean, Checkmate HAS the property....so, I figure maybe even back then, people were already leaning towards the less is more(meaning only 1 phase XC)?

Edited to add the Jazzy Lady DOES bring up valid points. Many sports have changed with the times. I believe it was in the early nineties they got rid of compulsary figures for all figure skaters. There was a huge argument over this, but it stuck. Does this mean they don't school their compulsaries at home? Not sure...I'm not a figure skater http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm sure many other sports HAVE had to change with the development of atheletes abilities and I believe with the equestrian sport, it's got very little funding and interest still. Trust me, if this was baseball or football(Gag), this wouldn't even be an argument. Can you imagine someone trying to change football? Hockey? Baseball? Who knows, maybe they already have? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If people REALLY want to make a change, the first thing is to listen, and the second thing is needing to UNITE. That means the top brass. If CMP is not with it....unfortunetly, I can't see the three day staying. I do believe DAvid O'Conner was also for the short format? Again, I may be wrong on that.

subk
Aug. 22, 2005, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gnep:
subk,
I think you should take a real good look at your constitution, or/and have somebody explain it to you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...The First Amendment says,
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Please note the "Congress shall make no law" part.

And according to the leading Constitutional educational site at http://www.usconstitution.net/

"The Bill of Rights was understood, at its ratification, to be a bar on the actions of the federal government."

I'm not sure how the Federal government or Congress is involved with the USEA and what they choose to publish or not, but I'm sure it must be a facinating tale!

Ellie K
Aug. 22, 2005, 03:18 PM
Slightly OT but other posters have mentioned NAYRC...why don't they just make it a national championship and make it long format? The FEI is going to pull the plug on it eventually, that topic has been under discussion in the FEI for years now. So why give them the pleasure? They are not going to keep putting their name on a championship that they view as being essentially national. They expect countries to run their own national championships under their own auspices. Eventually they will demand that the USEF do so with regard to this one. Again, why give them the pleasure?

If wanted/needed, they can still run it as a CCI, but the "championship" element would be a USEF championship instead of an FEI one. (just like Rolex is a CCI but also constitutes a US championship). Maybe there is an element of prestige that is lost but a USEF championship will have plenty of prestige if USEF chooses to make it so. There might also be a lot of expense lost.

Given the way things have gone, I doubt the FEI would approve a long format CCIO, but they can run an unofficial team competition within a CCI that would constitute the national team championship.

subk
Aug. 22, 2005, 04:10 PM
If we made the NAYRC a national championship wouldn't that allow us to simplify (and define) the qualifications? Would it prevent that competition from being used as a qualifcation for other FEI events?

Gry2Yng
Aug. 22, 2005, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:
If we made the NAYRC a national championship wouldn't that allow us to simplify (and define) the qualifications? Would it prevent that competition from being used as a qualifcation for other FEI events? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As long as it remained an FEI competition, it could be used as a qualifying event for other FEI competitions. For example, the competition would have to be a CCI** in order to used as the "In addition 1 further qualifying result must be achieved out of any of the following competitions:" for a CCI***.

If it were a National Championship the USA would define the rules for qualifying to enter the Championship, but you would have to qualify for a CCI under the FEI rules. As someone mentioned above. Rolex is the USA Four Star Championship and the Federation pins a winner from among all competitors who may or may not be the winner of Rolex.

I don't know what happens when you start to get caught up in the "team" part.

Gnep
Aug. 22, 2005, 04:34 PM
subk,
lets not forget our humor. But even a foreigner such as me has al the constitutional rights and is protected by the constitution, as long as he is within the US.
And naturally has to obey the constitution

subk
Aug. 22, 2005, 04:38 PM
Ellie's idea is such an obvious no brainer that I have to beleive I'm missing something? Why would we not being doing this already?

subk
Aug. 22, 2005, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gnep:
subk,
lets not forget our humor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Does anybody else find Gnep suggesting someone not loose their sense of humor hysterically funny?

Sannois
Aug. 22, 2005, 05:21 PM
HEY You guys Denny is Absolutely correct! There are some wonderful posts on here, but its Preaching to the Choir! We all agree!!! Those wonderful posts need to go to the USEA USEF, Chronicle etc! Over the past few years there have been some very well thought posts, Lets send these posts to the right ears and eyes!

Jazzy Lady
Aug. 22, 2005, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LE:
Wait...are you guys saying that now that the XC has been just reduced to one phase that they will run it more like a HT ALL on one day??? At the higher levels?? I don't think that's A) Possible or B) Fair. that's not what three day eventing is about. I mean, it has become four day eventing with needing two days for dressage to accomidate the amount of competitors.

Deltawave--I understand and agree with you. If what you are saying is-hey, yah, fine..let the Olympic riders school their thing, but Don't take away my three day at Prelim level because of it....you are RIGHT. Can it not be up to the show venue to continue to host three days with the four phases??? I mean, that's like the A circuit getting rid of the Hack Division in hunters, but getting rid of Hack for all levels would majorly SUCK for those who enjoy it(well, bad argument, but you get the idea). Why punish riders at a different level for something the 'top guns' don't want to do???

Having said that, I remember in the mid nineties when Checkmate HT held the Canadian Open and WOW..what a priveledge to watch the riders come up from the US. Part of me was happy when I was done my ride!! Hahahah. But it made me wonder....why so few three days? I mean, Checkmate HAS the property....so, I figure maybe even back then, people were already leaning towards the less is more(meaning only 1 phase XC)?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, CCI's will still be 3-day events... with dressage the first day (or two) endurance on Saturday, and the final jog and stadium on Sunday. Cross country in the short format is longer and *harder* generally since there is no A,B,C. Some riders also sprint their horses before cross on the short format (generally the *** and ****) to get the horses adrenaline pumping and prepare for cross since there is no chase to do that.

Checkmate also used to run a full CCI*** years ago. The chase course is still there, still mowed actually, but the money isn't there. It costs a LOT to run a three day and the backing and money just isn't there. Plus the entries are lacking. Bromont cancelled last year because of lack of entries and then chose to run short format this year which was wise. I think they got a lot more Ontario competitors who weren't prepared for a full phase that chose to come and do the short format or the CIC. Checkmate is also for sale, so unless someone horsey with a LOT of money and the means to do a 3-day, you won't see one there again.

farmboy
Aug. 22, 2005, 07:22 PM
What Mark Phillips says or does not say will not be the determining factor. Given a choice, it will be determined by simple economics and the eventual scarcity of land. The following are examples. (Didn't something similar occur in Colorado this year?)

QUOTE]Originally posted by Jazzy Lady:

Checkmate also used to run a full CCI*** years ago. The chase course is still there, still mowed actually, but the money isn't there. It costs a LOT to run a three day and the backing and money just isn't there. Plus the entries are lacking. Bromont cancelled last year because of lack of entries and then chose to run short format this year which was wise. I think they got a lot more Ontario competitors who weren't prepared for a full phase that chose to come and do the short format or the CIC. Checkmate is also for sale, so unless someone horsey with a LOT of money and the means to do a 3-day, you won't see one there again.[/QUOTE]

AM
Aug. 22, 2005, 07:43 PM
Had you all heard that the FEI now considers a CCI** a minor event? Stable security is no longer compulsory and there are no restrictions on prize money. In other words, you don't have to provide any. This is from an FEI communication of 2/2005 that I received from someone at USEF.

LE
Aug. 22, 2005, 07:51 PM
Jazzy---thanks!
Although I'm sad that Checkmate is for sale. I LOVE that venue. SOme day, I wanted to return to it to compete and get a ribbon from Checkmate(Well, I DID finish ninth over all eons ago, and they pinned to eigth. Fooey) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I was sad when I heard DWD moved to Africa. he was AWESOME!!! So kind, helpful and he was just hilarious!! I understand his desire to move of course.

Alright! Lets make this even MORe constructive of a thread.

WHAT can we do to encourage other riders/heads of governing equestrian bodies to KEEP the four phases in XC?? If it's a question of money, let's figure something out. If it's a question of land, lets figure it out. the BEST way to get an end result in your favor is to come up with solutions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I mean, if you basically say' here's what we can do' and show HOW....they'll DEFINETLY listen. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ksbadger
Aug. 22, 2005, 09:21 PM
I was wondering how long it would be before someone mentioned the 600lb gorilla - sponsorship - Thanks, Reed!

At this year's MACTA banquet, Buck Davidson gave the opinion that sponsors preferred the short format as they beleived their horses could be in the news once a month rather than much further between outings with the long format. This is their opinion regardless of however many studies are done to show otherwise. So if, for example, you're Shearwater Insurance (Shearl'eau, ShearH2O) or other major sponsor which format are you going to support? Exposure is everything.

The Captain's job is to produce an eventing team that can take on the rest of the world - and, like it or not, the world has gone over to the short format.

(Will now put on fire-resistant suit & retire to shelter)

Jazzy Lady
Aug. 23, 2005, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sannois:
Do you think the USEA would sit up and take notice if its grass roots support eventers, ie most of the membership from Prelim on down just didn't join USEA??? Why cant another eventing organization be started?? Anything is possible with enough work and support, and there is sure passion amoung this group! Dont slam me my husband is always asking me why eventers dont do this?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But why? Why would you punish the USEA when it is not them? As mentioned earlier they do not appoint CMP, they do not pay him, USEA fees do not pay him and they didn't change the format! So why would you punish them because a bunch of lower level riders are pissed off that the format changed and at CMP... that's bull... sorry.

Zipping up my flame retardent suite with Brock

tle
Aug. 23, 2005, 06:04 AM
Sannois, USEA is NOT the problem here. Boycotting USEA memberships will NOT help. The problem is the FEI - of which not one single person is a member. Organizations (ie: USEF) are members of the FEI.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">posted by subk:
Ellie's idea is such an obvious no brainer that I have to beleive I'm missing something? Why would we not being doing this already? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only problem with running CCNs as opposed to CCI's is the FEI qualification system does not recognize CCNs anymore. I certainly wish they would reverse this decision. Then the FEI could truly go their own way. However, since it's THEIR judges and THEIR fees that get paid at CCIs, I'm not holding my breath.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">posted by subk:
Does anybody else find Gnep suggesting someone not loose their sense of humor hysterically funny? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, most definitely! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

vineyridge
Aug. 23, 2005, 06:09 AM
If there is a boycott of anything, it should be of the USEF. The new organization is a disaster all round. The hunter jumper people are up in arms. The breeders are convinced that the Performance Horse Registry is now worthless. So many good Lexington people either left for managerial incompetence or were let go to save money, while Gladstone has actually grown in size and salaries. It seems that all the USEF cares about doing well is International High Performance, which is exactly what USET proposed in its application to become the NGB.

What all the disciplines need is a body that cares about NATIONAL concerns and smurfs that aren't into AA shows and FEI level competitions. Especially if 2*s and below are "minor" events that don't require full FEI rule compliance.

The USEA could help by creating a National division with National rules that focus on smurfs and LLRs. And no requirement that riders or horses be members of USEF. That would send a financial message to the asshats that are trying to run things. Money (or the lack of it) talks.

USEA could institute some sort of horse tracking that would disqualify horses from running more than one CCI in three or four months, after appropriate research and data collection of course. The horse--its health and longevity--needs to be the first (and I'd suggest the only) consideration in any horse sport.

Mariequi
Aug. 23, 2005, 06:43 AM
I hope those who thought Alan Balch was responsible for all of AHSA/USEF's woes see how much more voice and respect was given the breeds and nationals a very few years ago. As one who chose to leave after many years, it's difficult to watch. This last year I've not made many comments (and I wasn't silenced by a lovely severance as some have been and will be). Don't know that I'm interested in competing any longer, but I do care about 'my' chosen sport and, frankly, all of the breeds and disciplines that are supposed to have representation in that office 8 miles down the road. There are decent horse knowledgeable people in that office, but I don't know for how much longer. There are hard working, experienced people on committees (53 when I left - most certainly more now) with constructive and progressive ideas and best of intentions for the welfare of the horse and rider. There are also many self-serving individuals - that's not new, but one hopes they will be more obvious and recognized for what they are and that the good guys are respected and strengthened from folks like those here. Cheers to you all.

vineyridge
Aug. 23, 2005, 06:59 AM
Thanks for speaking up, Mariequi.

Could the USEA have a National Division that isn't affiliated with USEF, while continuing to have an FEI division? That way people who want to go in FEI events could continue the way things are now, but the others (majority, surely) could happily play in a National sandbox for most of their eventing lives?

Since the USEF is only interested in High Performance competitors, leave them with their few while the National Division has the many.

Hannahsmom
Aug. 23, 2005, 07:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sannois:
Do you think the USEA would sit up and take notice if its grass roots support eventers, ie most of the membership from Prelim on down just didn't join USEA??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please Sannois, STOP! The USEA is being incredibly supportive and doing a balancing act towards all. I have only good things to say about the USEA and what it has done for its membership. Tell your husband that.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 23, 2005, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What Mark Phillips says or does not say will not be the determining factor. Given a choice, it will be determined by simple economics and the eventual scarcity of land. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He certainly influenced who showed up at Rolex in 2005. The entries absolutely changed based on his statements and his influence. Even if an organizer such as JA has all the sponsorship in the world she cannot run an event if all of the four star riders have been told not to enter if they want to make a team. JA was commited to run the long format. Rolex is not running in the short format next year because of lack of land or lack of money or lack of volunteers. It is running in the short format b/c MP has used his influence on the riders and the Federation to make it that way. And now he is using his influence to convince those same riders that the long format CCI** is not useful to them.

farmboy
Aug. 23, 2005, 08:40 AM
Gry2Yng

Can you name exaactly which of the UL riders changed their entries based on his statements and influence? He needs them as much as they need him, and in the end, he will field the strongest team possible (and they know it).

Do you actually believe that independant thinkers such as Kim S., Karen O., and Amy T. (to name a few) are supporting the short format because he has told them that is what he wants?

But, getting back to the lower levels, I repeat that I believe that economics, and not MP, will determine the outcome.

tle
Aug. 23, 2005, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by farmboy:
Do you actually believe that independant thinkers such as Kim S., Karen O., and Amy T. (to name a few) are supporting the short format because he has told them that is what he wants?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If they want to continue to make The Team and have been in no uncertain terms been told "You must do X to be considered" and X = short format... hell yes I think they will do it. They already have demonstrated (or commented) to that affect.

farmboy
Aug. 23, 2005, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tle:

They already have demonstrated (or commented) to that affect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which ones and when? (They might be very suprised to hear this.)

Gry2Yng
Aug. 23, 2005, 08:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by farmboy:
Gry2Yng Exactly which of the UL riders do you know for sure changed their entries based on his statements and influence? He needs them, and in the end, will field the strongest team possible (and they know it).

Do you actually believe that independant thinkers such as Kim S., Karen O., and Amy T. (to name a few) are supporting the short format because he has told them that is what he wants?

But, getting back to the lower levels, I repeat that I believe that economics, and not MP, will determine the outcome. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

farmboy,
You have just named three established riders who have already ridden for their country, all of whom rode at Rolex this year. The riders I am speaking of are the riders on the bubble, and there are more riders on the bubble than not when it comes to fielding a four star event in the United States.


This is not something that I "belive" it is something that I know to be a fact. Off the top of my head I can think of at least two riders who were entered at Rolex and made the decision to withdraw after hearing from MP.

MP may need a team of riders but the only specific rider he "needs" is Kim. It is clear to all those in contention for a spot on the WEG team that the door is wide open for anyone who can step up. Thumbing your nose at MP is not the way to make a team.

If you think that there isn't a lot of politics that goes into a team selection you are living in another world.

farmboy
Aug. 23, 2005, 08:54 AM
Gry2Yng

You still haven't named one rider.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 23, 2005, 08:59 AM
Nope. And I won't.

pwynnnorman
Aug. 23, 2005, 09:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Many sports have changed with the times. I believe it was in the early nineties they got rid of compulsary figures for all figure skaters. There was a huge argument over this, but it stuck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A great point. Someone else mentioned how some riders will sprint their horses before x-c to make up for the lack of steeplechase. That made me wonder if maybe it might be possible to--eventually--"modify" what has been modified to bring back some of the flavor of the original while still satisfying FEI, et al.

I've said before that I was sure course designers would find a way to keep eventing as close to the sport it has always been. For example, the beginning og x-c were changed to INCLUDE (time wise) a sprint followed by a breather and then the meat of the course?

I think that would also be interesting to spectators and it would virtually force riders (not that they wouldn't already) to incorporate the same qualities of warm up as roads and tracks did...wouldn't it?

I remain confident that there are enough great minds in the sport to maintain its attractiveness even as economics force it to change. After all, why should THIS sport be any different that others (like figure skating) in the way it has to change with the times? Is the resultant weakening of the sport at its base worth the "revolution" starting a new organization would create? Would that really HELP the sport or just weaken it further?

I think finding ways to improve or enhance or retain the spirit of the sport WITHIN the constraints being placed upon it makes far more sense.

Janet
Aug. 23, 2005, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think the USEA would sit up and take notice if its grass roots support eventers, ie most of the membership from Prelim on down just didn't join USEA??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sannois.

For the umpteenth time.

The
USEA
is
the
BIGGEST
and
MOST ACTIVE
SUPPORTER
of
the
FULL FORMAT CCI
in
the WORLD.

Why would you want to boycott THEM???

Janet
Aug. 23, 2005, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The USEA could help by creating a National division with National rules that focus on smurfs and LLRs. And no requirement that riders or horses be members of USEF. That would send a financial message to the asshats that are trying to run things. Money (or the lack of it) talks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We ALREADY HAVE that. It is called BN, N and T. There is no requirement for USEF membership until you get to Prelim.

Ellie K
Aug. 23, 2005, 01:59 PM
tle, my suggestion is to only remove the FEI championship aspect of the NAYRC, so that it can be long format. It can still be a CCI, but with the championship element being national, you can run it any way you like, set qualifying any way you like, as long as you incorporate the minimum qualifications for a CCI of that level. As far as the FEI was concerned, it would be just another CCI with an individual classification. What was done in terms of national awards in conjunction with it would be none of their concern as long as the actual event was conducted in accordance with FEI rules. They can still select area teams the same as always, rank those teams and award USEF team medals on the basis of their placing, without the FEI being involved in that aspect in any way. So you could say in the area criteria...here is what you have to do to compete in any CCI**. On top of that, this is also a USEF championship run in long format, so you have to have a long format qualifying result. Then you will continue to have long format CCIs on the calendar. As long as there is something long format to qualify for, you will have long format events (barring the worsening of the land availability/economic difficulty trends which could hopefully be countered somewhat by action on the part of the governing orgs). As far as I know, a qualifying result obtained at an FEI championship has no additional value over one obtained at a CCI of the same level, so nothing is lost there, right?

And with regard to CCNs, my (possibly incorrect!) understanding of the FEI qualifying (http://www.usef.org/documents/athleteServices/ExpQualifiersRCApril26.pdf) rules is that they can still be used for qualifying (art. 506.1.12: “All national competitions used for qualification procedure must be certified by their NF to be of at least equivalent standard of difficulty of the relevant international star level of competition.”). Assuming, of course, that CCNs/CNCs of an equivalent level are being offered, for a CCI*, you do not need any FEI qualifying result at all. For a CCI**, you need to have just one of your three results at either a CIC** or a CCI*. I think we have kept the national rules pretty much in line with the FEI’s, so surely our events are “certifiable,” are they not? So why still no CCNs, would there still just not be enough entries to sustain a CCN when you subtract those who understandably wont’ enter because they already have their national qualifying results and so are pointed towards that one FEI result they still need?

In any case, regardless of the CCN issue, I just feel like we're possibly letting the FEI have more control over the sport in this country than it needs or even wants to have.The most recent change, not being able to use a CIC to qualify for a championship, I think is the final nail in the coffin. The way to keep that domino effect from happening all the way down is to take control of NAYRC and make it a national long format championship.

Jazzy Lady
Aug. 23, 2005, 02:12 PM
Ellie K == Interesting idea but the NAYRC is not only US riders. It is an international event because there is more than one country in North America. If it were turned into a National Championship instead of an FEI event, then Canada and Mexico would be excluded from the NAYRC. That may be fine with the US members, but I can guarantee you it wouldn't be fine with the others who are suddenly excluded from this opportunity.

The whole argument winds down to money. It makes the world, and consequently, the eventing world go round. Sponsors make it happen and who do you think sponsors are going to support? They still get the sponsorship of a big name event, but less money is being spent. If you people want more long formats then raise the money to run one! It costs SOO much money to build and even to maintain the full format.

If there is a chance for the ULRs to get more horses out at the higher levels, at more events, don't you think the owners are going to be pushing for this? ULR's and the team coach MUST change with the sport. It has to happen. What CMP does or says doesn't necessarily effect the * and ** level besides ruffling a few feathers of people who don't agree with him.

ULR's still have the final say what they do with their horses, and unless you ARE the particular ULR that you are typing about, then I don't think anyone has the right to say whether or not so and so supports this or so and so only went here because so and so said to or didn't go because so and so said to...

I'm sure if CMP or the variety of other ULR's that were mentioned here happened to stumble upon this thread they would have a WHOLE lot to say. It's not fair to these people to assume anything about them and then post it on the internet...

GotSpots
Aug. 23, 2005, 02:30 PM
Here's what I want to know: we've been told over and over about how much more it costs to run a classic format three day. Can someone with actualy knowledge jump in and tell me, assuming the land is already available (e.g., at a facility that has previously held a classic format event such as Virginia, Morven, or Kentucky), what the actual, in real dollars, cost differential is between running a classic format and running a short format? I'd like to see some numbers here.

As for Capt. Phillips' editorial, I am astounded by the number of positions one person can take inside of a year. I do not pretend to be an expert. I do not pretend to be an upper level rider (as anyone who saw the Spotted One pack me around by the grace of sheer equine good temper and athleticism can attest to). I am, however, an owner, a sponsor, and a contributor to the sport, and I would like some consistency in the message so that I can decide where I will choose to put my sponsorship dollars. Were it to be based solely on his commentary, I would be leery of sending any dollars to support a sport the head coach of which cannot even decide from month to month what it is and what it should be. Talk about dissuading your sponsors.

Ellie K
Aug. 23, 2005, 02:37 PM
It is an "international" event that is in fact populated overwhelmingly by US riders. That is why the FEI does not consider it a "real" FEI championship. That is why the FEI is not forever going to continue to sanction it, as it is presently run. Yes it would suck for Canada, they could come but there would not be much incentive to do so since they could not be named USEF champions. Mexico hasn't fielded a team in forever. There is but a handful of riders from other countries in the NAYRC, as compared to US riders (at least when held here). Foreign participation is, obviously, one of the things that would be sacrificed. But it is a choice. WHat's more important, umpteen US teams being able to compete against one Canadian team and one Mexican individual, or preserving the long format at lower levels in this country? I didn't say there was no down side. THere is a downside, but the alternative is that there will be no incentive for any long format anything. There is a downside, the point is that there is also what I think most people would say is a worse downside, which we are already in the midst of.

And the larger point, which is the basis for the reasoning, is that the NAYRC--as we presently know it--will one day no longer meet FEI approval anyway. I can't speculate as to when that might happen, but I can say definitively that it was being discussed within the FEI at least four years ago (this is not specific to eventing). Eventually they are going to say that they no longer want their name on it. They will say to the USEF, run your own national championships, and when you have a top team or two, or perhpas three maximum, and some other countries can put a team together, have a North American or Americas championship. Since Canada is presently the only other N.A. country able to field a team, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do it now. But eventually, sufficient development will have happened that it makes sense. So eventually, every area will not have a team competing in an international championship because the FEI will no longer allow it. Only the top few will ever get to compete in an FEI championship because that is, from their perspective, how things are supposed to be. What will be available for the majority is a national championship.

So why accommodate all their changes, which I think will be the end of long format CCIs, for a championship that, in its present form, the FEI is ultimately going to take away anyway? Does that make sense? Why give them that sort of control for something they would be happy to be rid of anyway? The point again is that THE END RESULT WILL BE THE SAME, it's not a question of IF, just WHEN. Why not just bite the bullet, preempt that change and use it to preserve the long format?

Miss Maddie
Aug. 23, 2005, 02:43 PM
I will chime in again to agree with Jazzy Lady. Although I feel that the long format 3 day is the pinnacle of our sport, and my personal riding goal is to complete a long format CCI*, I still have to respect those ULRs whose ultimate goal is to compete on the national team or represent our country in the Olympics. That is what they are spending their entire careers working their butts off for.

So for selfish reasons I want the long format to stay. However if I was an ULR with a horse that I thought had a chance of making the team, I'm pretty sure I'd do what it takes to give me the best chances of making it there. I think most of these riders give up a tremendous amount to get where they are and reach their goals.

We've known for a long time that to be competitive internationally our top riders need to go overseas and compete. George Morris has been saying this about the show jumping team for a while now, you have to go out and compete against the best in the world if you want to be the best. I think even if Luhmuehlen (sp?) had been a long format, it would still be more desireable to compete over there against the top riders in Europe. My point here is that I don't think CMPs comments about riders that want to make the team should ride in Europe instead of Rolex really means that much in terms of the demise of the long format, it's purely common sense. Entries for Rolex were down a lot, and I don't think that 4-5 riders would have made much of a difference. It's not like 20+ riders shipped over to Europe, it was a select group of developing riders IIRC.

So while I do admire the riders who support the long format, I still find it hard to really blast the riders who are doing what they have to do in order to achieve their lifetime goals. Don't get me wrong, I do honestly wish that these same riders would support the long format with their entries b/c that is the only way the long format will survive, if enough riders demand it and there is enough money to run them. But if you put yourself in their shoes you can probably see why they do what they do.

RunForIt
Aug. 23, 2005, 02:44 PM
Janet's point is well-taken - the fate of the Long format/classic 3-day is not the fault of the USEA. However, the USEA does publish Eventing magazine; part of the rewards for paying my dues is my (very late) subscription to that magazine. I do NOT in any way, want ANY part of my dues to go towards paying MP's salary, nor do I want him to have more priveleges in having his opinions published than do I or any other member of USEA. USEA can do something about that situation if enough members also have problems with his condescending, and sometimes insulting remarks. I fully realize that the 3*** and 4**** 3-day events are currently non-existent; the riders who choose to support that "horse trial on hormones" (thanks, Gnep) have every right to do so - I get to choose to NOT support those people.

subk
Aug. 23, 2005, 02:54 PM
If the Aussies can win the America's Cup, a Brit can win the USGA (Golf) Championsip and a German can win the US Open (Tennis) why couldn't the Canadians win a USEF Championship? We could call it the USEF Young Rider Open Championship.

Ellie I think your idea is right on the mark!

subk
Aug. 23, 2005, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miss Maddie:
So while I do admire the riders who support the long format, I still find it hard to really blast the riders who are doing what they have to do in order to achieve their lifetime goals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe I've missed some posts here, but I don't think anybody IS blasting the U.S. riders for doing what they've been told is necessary to make the Team.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miss Maddie:
Entries for Rolex were down a lot, and I don't think that 4-5 riders would have made much of a difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem is THOSE are the riders many of us go to Rolex to watch! (And I think it was more than 4-5.) Please remember that Rolex is the single greatest element that has raised the level of riding in this country. Regardless of where all of this goes it will remain so in the future--or as long at it is a viable competition. As such the quality of competition MUST be backed by those who profess to care about our Teams in the future. Not only did we loose riders at Rolex this year the quality of competition did suffered--significantly, because of who was missing. What about they guys below the bubble? Don't they deserve to have the highest quality possible, after all some of them are going to be the riders who will be eyeing the team in a few years--after Phillips is gone.

Jazzy Lady
Aug. 23, 2005, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:
If the Aussies can win the America's Cup, a Brit can win the USGA (Golf) Championsip and a German can win the US Open (Tennis) why couldn't the Canadians win a USEF Championship? We could call it the USEF Young Rider Open Championship.

Ellie I think your idea is right on the mark! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To compare golf and tennis to this sport is ridiculous. They are not governed by ANY of the same rules! It's very simple, for the same reason someone from the US cannot come up here and win the Ontario Championships. Memberships. My horse is qualified for the AEC's but since I am not a member of the USEA I cannot compete. I highly doubt if it is run as a national championships, international riders will be able to come without incurring the costs of several memberships in addition to our own. And why is it that the US should get the NAYRC. They haven't ALWAYS been held in the US even though, I'll admite, 90% of the competitions and riders are US... it is still an international competition.

International arguement aside, the only way the NAYRC are going to become a national event is if the FEI will give this up to the USEF. I can't see that happening anytime in the near future.

I also don't understand everyone who complains about CMP's editorial. If you do not like it, DO NOT READ IT! I've only met CMP once... and not really a meeting, only heard him speak to my trainer while I stood by patiently with a horse, so I'm not going to yay or nay him. However, maybe many of the people who get eventing magazine from the USEA LIKE to hear what he has to say, and those who do not should simply skip through it. If you really think that this board is the majority vote then go ahead and call the USEA, or e-mail them and tell them what you DO like to read about, and what columns you would really like to see in the magazine. But keep in mind that it is a National magazine and CMP is the national team coach...

Janet
Aug. 23, 2005, 03:41 PM
There is (or at least used to be) a category between a CCN (National) and CCI (International). It is/was called a CCA (Amicable) which is restricted to contiguous (neighboring) countries.

I have no idea if the full format is permitted for a CCA. Or even if it still exists as a possibility.