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View Full Version : pirouette, passage, piaffe -- Vaquero dressage



spirithorse
Feb. 28, 2011, 11:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF41GXTJvts

Impressive this whole video is not, however, please closely observe the gray that is to the outside.....the lighter stature one.

Watch for the pirouettes, the piaffes and passages.....toward the end....
but also watch him in general....he is quite supple.....

Watch closely......and say what you observe. In piaffe, his hind legs really come off the ground....etc...........

mickeydoodle
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:31 AM
nope. very ground bound, very irregular in all the gaits - the regularity of the gaits and the impulsion/suspension are sacrificed for the spectacle- now note that it is a nice routine under the lights, very impressive

nhwr
Mar. 1, 2011, 02:10 AM
Why do they have those tassels swishing in their faces?

Lost_at_C
Mar. 1, 2011, 06:08 AM
I'll play... Lack of rhythm, constant lack of engagement of hindquarters, horses generally very much on the forehand, no sit in piaffe, relatively little suppleness, overwrought riding, most of the performance looks laboured and tense. On the plus side, I guess it's a nice-ish exhibit of some "tricks" hastily uploaded to some baroque type animals. I've seen far better examples though. (shrug).

WILLOW&CAL
Mar. 1, 2011, 08:41 AM
I thought there was a distinct lack of suppleness and elasticity, sorry spirithorse. I don't want to argue for the sake of argument but it was not the best the country has to offer...at all. The horses were choppy and tense. Also no regularity/rhythm

Tamara in TN
Mar. 1, 2011, 08:52 AM
[QUOTE=spirithorse;5455369]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF41GXTJvts

Impressive this whole video is not,

who are you,Yoda???

the the festival at Granada is for Working Cattle Horses. For another poster the Tassels are to keep flies out of their eyes as they WORK cattle in the brush and the mudknot tails are to keep what are basically cactus like thorns from ripping them as they WORK.


Tamara in TN

meupatdoes
Mar. 1, 2011, 09:01 AM
In piaffe, his hind legs really come off the ground....etc...........

I thought the primary qualifier for piaffe was the horse sitting...?

in_the_zone
Mar. 1, 2011, 09:27 AM
Call me crazy, but I'd take the outside gray in a heartbeat! His training is more dressage oriented than the other 2 horses. International dressage sensation? No. But he looks as good or better than the majority of the regional FEI level horses. He has the beginnings of a very good piaffe and passage. Needs some work on the tempis. Typical of a hotter type horse who's been drilled on them too much too fast. No biggie really. This is obviously NOT a finished GP horses, it's a 4th/breaking into FEI level horse schooling all the GP movements.

They all look a little on the spicy side, so though you all are giving them points off for tense, I imagine they are all better at home. Sure, the other 2 have the tricks "hastily" loaded on and aren't developed in the way of classical dressage, but please consider how your horse might react in such a situation.

I wasn't going to post at all, but I figured I'd play devils advocate. The gray horse is not dog food as the other comments have reflected. And yes, I'm going to go there...how many of you have ridden, trained, and successfully competed to FEI or GP?

Reddfox
Mar. 1, 2011, 09:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF41GXTJvts

Watch for the pirouettes, the piaffes and passages.....toward the end....
but also watch him in general....he is quite supple.....

Watch closely......and say what you observe. In piaffe, his hind legs really come off the ground....etc...........

Tension aside, there are some pretty major faults in all of the horses shown here. I agree that the lighter statured grey is probably better off than the other two, but if you are just looking at the correctness of the piaffe - the middle grey is the most correct in terms of sit and balance.

For the hind legs to be traveling that high off the ground means that the horse is carrying a significant amount of weight on the forehand - which lightens the hind and allows it to bounce up and down, rather than sit.

Also, the passage is showing quite a bit of balancé - another indication that the horse is not sitting as it should - and supple he is not...

Kind of sad that they have the "tricks" put on them so quickly, they're nice horses with a natural capacity for collection and could be demonstrating it in a much better manner if they weren't so rushed in the training.

Tamara in TN
Mar. 1, 2011, 10:19 AM
Before the last train for Ding Dongville gets loaded I'd like to send a video of what these horses do for a living.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk_n1yQlmT0

"tricks" are you serious ????


Tamara in TN

in_the_zone
Mar. 1, 2011, 10:35 AM
LOL Tamara!

BansheeBreeze
Mar. 1, 2011, 10:39 AM
Sorry but I have no respect for the methods they use to "train" these horses.

Tamara in TN
Mar. 1, 2011, 10:40 AM
Sorry but I have no respect for the methods they use to "train" these horses.

well good for you :lol::lol:

Tamara in TN

Reddfox
Mar. 1, 2011, 10:55 AM
Before the last train for Ding Dongville gets loaded I'd like to send a video of what these horses do for a living.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk_n1yQlmT0

"tricks" are you serious ????


Tamara in TN

If this is directed at my putting tricks in quotes, I think that you misunderstood my meaning.

I said "tricks" in this instance because what these horses are showing is to me a parody of what the movements should be because (if we are looking at this in terms of FEI standards ) they appear to have been rushed through the training in order to produce a show.

These horses that are doing the work are very highly trained - and need to be in order to do this work. I'm not negating that for a second. What you show in this video is more correct (again, if we are looking at correct in terms of the movements as defined by the FEI) than the video that Spirithorse uploaded. I actually enjoy this much more because they seem to be more free and enjoying their work.

I have the utmost respect for these horses and their profession.

But really, when it comes down to it - it is comparing apples to oranges. These horses that you depict are not being trained to meet a competition ideal - they are being trained to perform a deadly serious task.

Tamara in TN
Mar. 1, 2011, 11:08 AM
If this is directed at my putting tricks in quotes, I think that you misunderstood my meaning.
These horses that are doing the work are very highly trained - and need to be in order to do this work. I'm not negating that for a second. What you show in this video is more correct (again, if we are looking at correct in terms of the movements as defined by the FEI) than the video that Spirithorse uploaded. I actually enjoy this much more because they seem to be more free and enjoying their work.

I have the utmost respect for these horses and their profession.

But really, when it comes down to it - it is comparing apples to oranges. These horses that you depict are not being trained to meet a competition ideal - they are being trained to perform a deadly serious task.


these are the same working horses that Spirithorse showed only in his video they are in their "sunday go to meeting" clothes...

in the Doma Vaquera there is no "working" vs. "just show horses" distinction

they were not created just for the fest in Granada...they were not made to learn tricks for the fest...the movements that they are made to do are the dummy-ed down version of working horses done for the crowd,a crowd that I promise has those horses as entrenched in their blood as any pen of German WB breeders.

why that person chose to show animals that work for a living as being some FEI anything is on him I guess,but his doing so has completely annoyed me

Tamara in TN

alicen
Mar. 1, 2011, 11:51 AM
why that person chose to show animals that work for a living as being some FEI anything is on him I guess,but his doing so has completely annoyed meTamara in TN

Because, for the most part, the nose is in front of the vertical.

Tamara in TN
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:29 PM
Because, for the most part, the nose is in front of the vertical.

??? is that something important to him ??

Tamara in TN

alibi_18
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:32 PM
??? is that something important to him ??

Tamara in TN

For SH, that is the ONLY important thing. It is THE rule.

Tamara in TN
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:50 PM
For SH, that is the ONLY important thing. It is THE rule.

oh ok

I looked dude up
wow.
just wow.


Tamara in TN

spirithorse
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:56 PM
Thank you for your posts.


I thought the primary qualifier for piaffe was the horse sitting...?

You have a point, however, if the horse lowers the croup the weight has been transfered to the hindquarter and the movement has become a pre-levade..............not piaffe. The horse is no longer 'balanced' as required.

[quote reddfox]For the hind legs to be traveling that high off the ground means that the horse is carrying a significant amount of weight on the forehand - which lightens the hind and allows it to bounce up and down, rather than sit.]

Ah, could be true if the forelegs where actually not rising high. This is not the case with the stipulated gray. The horse is actually 'balanced' from front to rear and thus is able to rise the hind legs correctly.

Flame suit on!
The video was posted to get visual reactions.
And the reactions were exactly as I expected. Thank you.
Yes, the gray I reference is not GP level, but these are working cattle horses not competition dressage horses.
The gray was singled out simply because of the fluidity and freedom it has during the performance, while the other two are as rigid as the modern competitive dressage horse.

You may not like who I am or that I mandate the rules be followed and that is your right. But some of the postings clearly demonstrate the problem of lack of correct education that exists in the dressage world.
We have been bombarded with the incorrect presentation of dressage for so long that so many do not really know what correct dressage should appear as.

leilatigress
Mar. 1, 2011, 01:08 PM
Tamara I'm with you. I find these parodies of the true purpose of these horses a lot like taking the working ranch horses and showing them cutting cattle like the "cutting" horses do. Now granted the movements by in large are the same but I can guarantee the ranch horse is going to get the job done quickly and more effectively with a lot less "fan fare".
As for the first vid I'll take the middle gray. Much more solid in the movements without all the damn jigging between changes. I like smooth transitions between the movements not jig jig tempi. He's also the only one that consistently crosses both front and back legs correctly. The outside gray is paddling like he's going up the river and the bay isn't even crossing anyways he's marching forward and badly at that. So from a dressage standpoint YUCK! From a working cattle standpoint I'll take the middle gray, convincing my husband to never sit on another horse I'll set him up on the bay.

Tamara in TN
Mar. 1, 2011, 01:11 PM
[QUOTE=leilatigress;5456150] The outside gray is paddling like he's going up the river and the bay isn't even crossing anyways he's marching forward and badly at that. So from a dressage standpoint YUCK! From a working cattle standpoint I'll take the middle gray, convincing my husband to never sit on another horse I'll set him up on the bay.[/QUOTE

Paddling is inherent in those breeds...so I don't fault them as it is with in their standard of movement

Tamara in TN

Reddfox
Mar. 1, 2011, 01:36 PM
Thank you for your posts.



You have a point, however, if the horse lowers the croup the weight has been transfered to the hindquarter and the movement has become a pre-levade..............not piaffe. The horse is no longer 'balanced' as required.

[quote reddfox]For the hind legs to be traveling that high off the ground means that the horse is carrying a significant amount of weight on the forehand - which lightens the hind and allows it to bounce up and down, rather than sit.]

Ah, could be true if the forelegs where actually not rising high. This is not the case with the stipulated gray. The horse is actually 'balanced' from front to rear and thus is able to rise the hind legs correctly.




This is the biggest crock that I've read in a while.

What do you think the piaffe is? It is a preparation for the levade. So yes, the weight HAS to shift to the rear. The levade is no longer the end goal for most riders - but that doesn't mean that the piaffe doesn't keep the collection requirements. You love the rule book - look it up.


As far as the forelegs not being able to lift as high if the horse is weighting its forehand...I'm sure that you have seen countless videos where horses with their heads tucked into their chests have equally high front and back action. The Anky/Bonfire video comes to mind. A bouncing croup and high rear legs is an indicator that the weight is not properly balanced to the rear.

spirithorse
Mar. 1, 2011, 02:01 PM
This is the biggest crock that I've read in a while.

What do you think the piaffe is? It is a preparation for the levade. So yes, the weight HAS to shift to the rear. The levade is no longer the end goal for most riders - but that doesn't mean that the piaffe doesn't keep the collection requirements. You love the rule book - look it up.

The biggest crock is your concept that piaffe is preparation for levade.
IT IS NOT. The cavalry movement of piaffe was done to hold the line of horses, yet be able to continue movement as one line.

The rules were rewritten and bastardized the actual movement!

When one is going to do levade, one places the horse into piaffe...then when the horse is 'balanced' the rider brings the horse rearward into levade in one continuous movement.

meupatdoes
Mar. 1, 2011, 02:08 PM
The biggest crock is your concept that piaffe is preparation for levade.
IT IS NOT. The cavalry movement of piaffe was done to hold the line of horses, yet be able to continue movement as one line.

The rules were rewritten and bastardized the actual movement!

When one is going to do levade, one places the horse into piaffe...then when the horse is 'balanced' the rider brings the horse rearward into levade in one continuous movement.

So... piaffe is what you do on the way to levade but it isn't preparation for levade. Okey dokey then.

alicen
Mar. 1, 2011, 02:12 PM
And are we not fortunate today that we need only engage in forum battles and not ride our horses into combat.

WILLOW&CAL
Mar. 1, 2011, 03:11 PM
And are we not fortunate today that we need only engage in forum battles and not ride our horses into combat.

The smartest thing said here:winkgrin:

RougeEmpire
Mar. 1, 2011, 03:30 PM
Sorry but I have no respect for the methods they use to "train" these horses.



And what methods would those be? This is not Charro if thats what you are thinking. Doma Vaquera requires the great skill of a Vaquero Horseman.

alicen
Mar. 1, 2011, 06:58 PM
You have a point, however, if the horse lowers the croup the weight has been transfered to the hindquarter and the movement has become a pre-levade..............not piaffe.

"The quarters will be lowered and the forehand correctly raised when the hind legs step well under the body with activity."

Guess who said the above quote about piaffe?

monstrpony
Mar. 2, 2011, 11:10 AM
<slosh, slosh .. there's a little left in this gas can; why not toss it on the fire?>

There are more animal-sympathetic ways to handle cattle than what is shown in the "working" video. Of course, that would be quiet and slow, and can be done on a loose rein, so the horses would all be on their forehands ... But softness and lack of tension in the horses and riders working the cattle carries over to the cattle themselves. Now, you'd want horses that can be quiet and soft, and still go in an instant when asked, but we all know you can't have it both ways.

Right?