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n2dressage
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:01 PM
2000 16.3 hand chestnut TB Gelding. Never raced. USDF scores to 69% at 2nd level. Schooled to 3rd-changes willing but not confirmed. Great basic gaits and is easy to sit. Has always been sound but does have partial paralysis in his larynx that makes noise when he breathes but doesn't affect performance. Can be a difficult ride- tricky to get round and through and keep him there while keeping suppleness and a light feel. Can have an athletic spook but is not dangerous; doesn't buck or rear. Is athletic enough to go up the levels with the right rider.
Where would you price this horse given the market?

netg
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:16 PM
With the scores around 69% - are they that high due to accuracy or movement?

As in, is he a 7 mover? 8 mover?

Lower end based on what I've seen advertised around here for that age, TB, that training, not necessarily a great mover or schoolmaster, but with potential, has been about $20k. Depending on movement, even with the breathing issue (assuming a vet oks him) if he gets matched with the correct rider could be a LOT higher.

This is what I see *advertised* though, as opposed to what's selling - I don't know anyone buying or selling horses at that level of training, so don't know what anyone's paying.

Perfect Pony
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:17 PM
I would say 5-10k, he has a lot of issues. For 20k plus you could get a horse without the issues.

n2dressage
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
Scores to 69% is with an amateur rider and a few bobbles during the tests. For instance... test going really well (8's on mediums... etc) then horse has a "moment" during a transition or something and gets a 3. 7 or 8 mover given the day and the warmup. Breathing was assessed when younger and didn't cause a problem when horse was doing eventing years ago.
Judges have said horse is excellent quality and there is no reason FEI is not attainable.

netg
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
I would say 5-10k, he has a lot of issues. For 20k plus you could get a horse without the issues.

If the horse were advertised this way, he'd be listed at a lot more, I think:

Beautiful and sensitive 16.3hh sport-bred TB gelding. 10/11 (depending on birthday) year old, showing 2nd level with an amateur scores up to 69%, schooling third level and starting with willing changes. Easy to sit, fantastic gaits with potential to continue advancing up the levels.

I wouldn't expect an ad to mention a breathing sound which doesn't affect the horse's performance any more than I would expect an ad for Warum Nicht to mention floppy ears.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:26 PM
If he was a 6 yo at 2nd, I'd say 8-12k, but as an 11 yo it makes me wonder what his real potential is. Even if he's physically able to do upper level work, is he such a tense horse that he won't be able to relax (hint: "tricky to get round and through"). So if we're looking at a tense 11 yo who doesn't like to go on the bit and is spooky -- that does eliminate the schoolmaster option for a beginning rider, I'd say 5 -7 k max, with the 2nd level scores being the saving grace, and you gottta be lucky to find JUST the right person for him. Also, the breathing issue might be ok for dressage only, but can he go out for a gallop? That would drop the price again.

n2dressage
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:36 PM
Insideleg2outsiderein: Him being 11 and only 2nd/3rd is a function of him being owned by a young amateur that was learning as he was learning and not any reflection on his capability. He has since been leased by an older amateur and while his spookiness was calmed down he is now significantly harder to get round (though from what I hear it is not really due to him being tense per se either). He did event to Training in the past but only that far due to his jumping form and not his breathing issue.

Ad does sound similar to what was posted above by the other poster with no mention of breathing issue and wording such as "looking for a quiet, confident rider".

Would $10-15k be the right ballpark?

Perfect Pony
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:44 PM
Judges have said horse is excellent quality and there is no reason FEI is not attainable.

The problem is, you can find really nice 4-7 year old horses showing at first level that are well bred WBs, 7-8 movers, scoring high or winning at 1st level, that don't have breathing or tension or "spooky" issues in the 20-30k range that would be a much better investment for someone truly looking to go up the levels.

People just don't buy the OPs type of horse to move up the levels with, you have to find someone who wants to stick with 2nd level on a quirky horse, and maybe move up to third, and they are going to pay significantly less than 15-20k. Unless you get really really lucky and find someone that just has to have him. I would prepare to sell for less than 10k and be happy to find him a good home. Unless of course he is really spectacular. To really assess people need to see the horse.

mjrtango93
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:46 PM
Insideleg2outsiderein: Him being 11 and only 2nd/3rd is a function of him being owned by a young amateur that was learning as he was learning and not any reflection on his capability. He has since been leased by an older amateur and while his spookiness was calmed down he is now significantly harder to get round (though from what I hear it is not really due to him being tense per se either). He did event to Training in the past but only that far due to his jumping form and not his breathing issue.

Ad does sound similar to what was posted above by the other poster with no mention of breathing issue and wording such as "looking for a quiet, confident rider".

Would $10-15k be the right ballpark?

That is where I would price him if he was mine. However, I would also keep in mind that this is potentially a more difficult horse to sell do to rideability and possible vet issues (breathing). If a great rider came along that was a match I would seriously consider just about anything they offered.

Capriole
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:46 PM
I'm always shocked how low people on BBs price horses. I can't figure out if these posters just won't spend more than a few thousand on any horse or if they have an knack for finding bargains that I lack.

Without the breathing issue, I would say $15-20k. (On the east coast. Location is always a factor.)

I'm not sure how the breathing issue should affect price. For me personally as a buyer, no discount in price would convince me to take such a horse. Other buyers will have no objection.

n2dressage
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:49 PM
To really assess people need to see the horse.

There is a video... I just don't want this thread to turn taboo and be locked by the mods. :no:

Megaladon
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:49 PM
5 -7 k max

This is what I thought too.

Perfect Pony
Feb. 28, 2011, 04:55 PM
If a great rider came along that was a match I would seriously consider just about anything they offered.

This is what I am thinking in this market. Sure, price him at 10-15k, but I would be more concerned with finding a great home for such a horse, and getting out from under the monthly expenses. I have been horse shopping pretty actively in the last year, the market is really bifurcated right now with the lower (less than 12k) and higher (over 25k) end moving (given a good deal and a nice horse) and a no-mans-land in between.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Feb. 28, 2011, 05:14 PM
There is a video... I just don't want this thread to turn taboo and be locked by the mods. :no:

Could you pm me the link to the video? I'd love to see. :D

mbm
Feb. 28, 2011, 05:22 PM
I would say 5-10k, he has a lot of issues. For 20k plus you could get a horse without the issues.

agree, altho i was going to say 10k

Petstorejunkie
Feb. 28, 2011, 05:23 PM
I'd happily pay 10-15k for that. your clientele will need to be someone with talent on a budget.
5-7k... really people?

TrotTrotPumpkn
Feb. 28, 2011, 05:24 PM
This is so hard to say without seeing him move and hearing the breathing. I know you said it doesn't affect performance, but there are lots of people out there who will rule him out based on it, regardless. I probably would, after seeing a person struggle with a horse that the vet in the PPE said wouldn't have performance affected. Boy was that wrong in the long-run.

The TB and age factors are also going to hit the price. Also chestnut isn't the best color to sell, unless he has lots of bling.

But maybe the movement makes up for it--I have no idea. There is really no way to give a true answer without video.

In our area, based on the info provided, I would list around $7,500-$10,000.

mbm
Feb. 28, 2011, 05:28 PM
yeah, for me it isnt breathing, or color or breed - it is the "needs sensitive rider" "tends be a challenge to get round" etc.

*that* will be a hard sell.

why would someone buy an older, non school master that is "tricky" for the same price they could get a nice young, non tricky horse?

maybe he is fab, and if that is the case - then sure ask more.... but......

mickeydoodle
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:16 AM
hard sell, less than $6000

Mary in Area 1
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:46 AM
hard sell, less than $6000

With 2nd level scores of 69%, there is no way this horse is worth less than $20K, UNLESS he won't vet.

The breathing issue is really only a problem in upper-level eventing. The surgery is no big deal if he needs it, but in dressage, it is highly unlikely.

If the horse is sound (except for the wind) he should NOT be sold for under $20K. Otherwise, get him jumping and sell him as a lower-level event horse who will win the dressage, then he'd be worth $30K !!!

mickeydoodle
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:58 AM
look at OP address- germany, add $7000+ import to the cost, add difficult to get round, add age, etc

n2dressage
Mar. 1, 2011, 02:26 AM
look at OP address- germany, add $7000+ import to the cost, add difficult to get round, add age, etc

He's in the Southeast United States; not Germany.

in_the_zone
Mar. 1, 2011, 09:29 AM
Well let's look at who your target market might be.

An AA looking for a horse to learn on. This is a huge market, but not one your horse is going to appeal to. If he's tricky to get through/on the bit, this buyer will not be able to do it. Because they are looking for something to teach them, this horse will only get them more frustrated. Spooky? Forget it. Also, these are usually somewhat inexperienced horse people and although a roarer isn't a big deal, that will be a strike against him in their book. Not a good match for the horse either.

A professional. This is not your market either. Most professionals get handed good Warmbloods to ride, train, and show and some aren't even interested in owning their own horse at all. Trainers can also buy a young horse (often getting a price break) and bring it along quickly themselves. Also, even if this is a true FEI prospect, there's a few problems 1) It's 12 2) It's only schooling 3rd now and that's a long way to go and 3) it's a TB. Don't BBQ me for that one. When a professional buys a horse they have to think of resale value too, and a TB just don't have it. If they want to put the time and training on a horse, the Warmblood is always going to be the one worthwhile.

Intermediate riders. This is where your horse is going to get interest. However, there's a LOT of horses available in this market, so you are going to have to make your horse attractive. It's not young. It's not easy. It's a TB. It DOES have training and show experience and that's what you are selling. You cannot ask the same price as an equal Warmblood; that Warmblood "with issues" is going to be 10-15k.

Actually, I have almost exactly that Warmblood for sale myself listed for 8,500. Unfortunately, I am only attracting the AA's looking for a bargain. They want the horse with issues price, but can't ride it. The intermediate riders are my target market too and even at that price, I can't attract one!

To get interest your horse, you are going to have to target the Intermediate rider that's on a budget. This might be a working student, a collegiate rider, a talented child with non-horsey crazy parents, or other talented and likely young (14-25) rider. I'd ask 12.5k, be fully prepared to go down to 10k, and to the right home, 8k.

Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear. I'm sure he is a very nice horse. It's just your target market is small and it's saturated with horses that aren't selling. If you do somehow find the perfect owner, do everything your power to make that happen for your horse and for that person.

Cheesetoast
Mar. 1, 2011, 05:25 PM
There was a very similar horse for sale in my area (quite expensive area) a few months ago. Thoroughbred, 16.3, shown to 2nd (don't recall the scores), schooling 3rd, said to be an amateur ride. I saw a video - very warmblood like, decent gaits, 9 years old, was originally listed at $10K, eventually dropped to $6k...last I saw she was trying to free lease him.

Poody
Mar. 1, 2011, 05:38 PM
I know a WB that fits most of that description that has been for sale forever at 25K. decent mover ,ammy can ride..
For a TB with a couple issues on top..10-15K and do the happy dance when it is gone.

n2dressage
Mar. 2, 2011, 03:23 AM
Well let's look at who your target market might be.

An AA looking for a horse to learn on. This is a huge market, but not one your horse is going to appeal to. If he's tricky to get through/on the bit, this buyer will not be able to do it. Because they are looking for something to teach them, this horse will only get them more frustrated. Spooky? Forget it. Also, these are usually somewhat inexperienced horse people and although a roarer isn't a big deal, that will be a strike against him in their book. Not a good match for the horse either.

A professional. This is not your market either. Most professionals get handed good Warmbloods to ride, train, and show and some aren't even interested in owning their own horse at all. Trainers can also buy a young horse (often getting a price break) and bring it along quickly themselves. Also, even if this is a true FEI prospect, there's a few problems 1) It's 12 2) It's only schooling 3rd now and that's a long way to go and 3) it's a TB. Don't BBQ me for that one. When a professional buys a horse they have to think of resale value too, and a TB just don't have it. If they want to put the time and training on a horse, the Warmblood is always going to be the one worthwhile.

Intermediate riders. This is where your horse is going to get interest. However, there's a LOT of horses available in this market, so you are going to have to make your horse attractive. It's not young. It's not easy. It's a TB. It DOES have training and show experience and that's what you are selling. You cannot ask the same price as an equal Warmblood; that Warmblood "with issues" is going to be 10-15k.

Actually, I have almost exactly that Warmblood for sale myself listed for 8,500. Unfortunately, I am only attracting the AA's looking for a bargain. They want the horse with issues price, but can't ride it. The intermediate riders are my target market too and even at that price, I can't attract one!

To get interest your horse, you are going to have to target the Intermediate rider that's on a budget. This might be a working student, a collegiate rider, a talented child with non-horsey crazy parents, or other talented and likely young (14-25) rider. I'd ask 12.5k, be fully prepared to go down to 10k, and to the right home, 8k.

Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear. I'm sure he is a very nice horse. It's just your target market is small and it's saturated with horses that aren't selling. If you do somehow find the perfect owner, do everything your power to make that happen for your horse and for that person.


Yeah, this is all pretty accurate. I'm not delusional in trying to sell him for a lot of money (I don't think). When I bought him it was never with the intent of having to sell him again. He was supposed to be the horse that I learned everything on and when he was a teenager I was going to buy a young horse and start over again but with a lot more of an education. Then I moved overseas. :( It doesn't make sense to bring him here and it doesn't make sense to lease him and keep him because when I come back to the States he'll be a 13 or 14 year old 2nd/3rd level horse (or worse) :no: And I can't afford/don't want to pay for training board on a horse for the entire time I'm here in hopes that he's maybe PSG or something when I come home.

Sigh.... Here is what I've learned from this experience though--- the NEXT horse I buy will be a warmblood with bloodlines that can be easily recognized, he will be quiet, easy to ride, easy to hack, in general- just easy. He will be competitive in the dressage arena and his training will hopefully be in line with his age. Then in the event of life changes, if I have to sell, there will be AA's lining up for a safe, competitive horse. When I get lucky and DON'T have to sell then he will go on to become my Grand Prix horse :D:D BUT it's all a moot point right now since I can only afford to house and feed one horse at a time!

suzy
Mar. 2, 2011, 07:57 AM
I'm with the posters who think this horse is being lowballed. Several years ago, my vet was telling me that she had not done a single prepurchase on horses priced at $5,000 or less all year in which the horse was sound. With the exception of the breathing issue (which does not seem to be causing the horse any problems), it sounds as though this horse is sound with several redeeming qualities. It is true that he will fit into a narrow market niche, so the trick will be to market him in such a way that gets the attention of that group.

Perfect Pony
Mar. 2, 2011, 10:02 AM
Sigh.... Here is what I've learned from this experience though--- the NEXT horse I buy will be a warmblood with bloodlines that can be easily recognized, he will be quiet, easy to ride, easy to hack, in general- just easy. He will be competitive in the dressage arena and his training will hopefully be in line with his age. Then in the event of life changes, if I have to sell, there will be AA's lining up for a safe, competitive horse. When I get lucky and DON'T have to sell then he will go on to become my Grand Prix horse :D:D BUT it's all a moot point right now since I can only afford to house and feed one horse at a time!

LOL. Unfortunately THAT perfect horse will then go lame with a career ending injury or illness...

n2dressage
Mar. 2, 2011, 12:30 PM
LOL. Unfortunately THAT perfect horse will then go lame with a career ending injury or illness...

Hahahahahaha of course! Yet this difficult horse I have has not had as much as a runny nose since I've known him...!

KatherineC
Mar. 2, 2011, 01:00 PM
I have read through a few of these posts. One of your big hurdles will be that "he is hard to get round and through". He will need a tactful rider.

Dressage is hard enough on a willing, obedient, cooperating partner. This adds an addition layer of complexity, especially in this economy.

malpal17
Nov. 25, 2011, 03:44 AM
Okay, small freaking world!

Do you happen to be talking about a horse named City Slicker, ir Slick? Cause if so, I bought him this past June!

I'm 16 years old and have been kicking ass with him this past season. I changed his name to Phoenix though (I liked the name Slick, but I've always dreamed of having a chestnut named Phoenix.)

One thing I've learned about him though is he likes to itch his face on everything and he poked his eye and got a little infection, but he's okay now! I read you were hoping for a good home for him, and no worries because I'm head over heels in love with him. I'm an eventer and we just went to our first event together last month and got 2nd out of 15 riders in BN. I probably will take him up to training next season, and then hang around there and then give him to my mom to pack her around.

We did go to a dressage show in September and won all of our classes with scores from 64%-71% and got high point junior champion and went to a jumper show last weekend and kicked butt.

I love him to pieces and can assure you he went to the best possible home ever! I'll post some video links of us together and maybe you can PM here so I can keep you updated on him? I know if I ever sold my horse I'd want to keep in touch with the new owner.

http://youtu.be/0MMupSeqCYM
http://youtu.be/3qQXqB4AUVI
http://youtu.be/1PzcDwkzkOs

You can click around my youtube, I have a lot of videos of him.

P.S.
The only reason I'm assuming this is about Phoenix (Slick) is because I remember his sale video was posted by n2dressage and the ad sounded exactly like that! But correct me if I'm wrong; if I am, that's embarrassing! :)

malpal17
Nov. 25, 2011, 04:05 AM
Also, I've had tons of people ask me if he's a hanoverian... not one person has thought he's a thoroughbred and we have weekly lessons with my UL event trainer who lives in our guest house.

He is a very spoiled boy!

Twigster
Nov. 25, 2011, 09:07 AM
You can always just send him to me ;) he sounds lovely.

I would think 15k would be a good place to list him in my area, but horses are normally priced comparatively low where I am. With rated show results for dressage and eventing, and the changes coming along... For a comparable warmblood I would expect to see them asking 25k.

pryme_thyme
Nov. 25, 2011, 10:07 AM
This is what I thought too.

I also agree. Breathing sound may not be an issue but as a new buyer it would be a total downfall for me.

That being said I purchased my filly as a 2 y/o with an old sesamoid injury that the buyer stated did not cause any issues. I got lucky and it turned out to be fully calcified (healed).
But I am really cautious when it comes to potential issues and not knowing if there might be something else to it.

Being that is he 11y/o and is schooling at that level but is difficult to keep round, he would need a certain type of rider with strong enough skill to deal with it.

I personally would not pay more than $5,000- $7,000. But that is just me and my opinion based on the market in my area.

shawneeAcres
Nov. 25, 2011, 10:10 AM
I sold a horse early November was similar to this, a 12 yr old, 16.1 1/2 hand gelding, he was an "off breed" for dressage, was a pretty easy ride tho, no spook and not difficult, was showing first with scores in the 70's and schooling second and third movements, had half pass, counter canter, changes but not totally confirmed, haunches in etc , very easy horse to do lateral work on. Vetted out 100%. Sold to first person that tried him for $6500. If he hadnt been so easy, doubtful I would have sold him that easily, that is really key in the market right now unless you have an AWESOME upper level prospect that is younger, and a breathing issue will turn off many buyers, regardless of how inconsquential

cadance
Nov. 25, 2011, 10:24 AM
With 2nd level scores of 69%, there is no way this horse is worth less than $20K, UNLESS he won't vet.

If the horse is sound (except for the wind) he should NOT be sold for under $20K. Otherwise, get him jumping and sell him as a lower-level event horse who will win the dressage, then he'd be worth $30K !!!

I think YOU are on crack. a TB with issues, at this age will not sell for more than $7K, especially when there are well schooled, well bred warmbloods out there with equally solid scores at training level and 1st level with good breeding going for $10K or less. just go on warmbloods-for-sale.com and you will see what I'm talking about. You can buy a sound 1999 well bred upper level schoolmaster WB for $15K-25K.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 25, 2011, 10:40 AM
Umm see above post it says that someone bought him and she has videos :)

lovey1121
Nov. 25, 2011, 10:54 AM
nevermind...

GraceLikeRain
Nov. 25, 2011, 11:32 AM
Seems like your horse has found an ideal match. Congratulations, he is a very handsome boy.

FlashGordon
Nov. 25, 2011, 12:06 PM
Gah I want him send him to meeeee! ;)

cadance
Nov. 25, 2011, 01:11 PM
fun! congratulations MalPal, sounds like you and Phoenix are a great match!!

netg
Nov. 25, 2011, 05:00 PM
Thanks for posting, MalPal, and welcome to the board! He sure is a cutie - great to hear you two are such a good match!