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View Full Version : Let's Take a Look at Dressage in 1972



Mike Matson
Feb. 23, 2011, 02:58 AM
Dressage exhibition by Liselott Linsehnoff on her horse Piaff in 1972.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFjJhxK7SUY

So what's different then and now? Let's see what the dressage-savy CotHers have to say.

kaluha2
Feb. 23, 2011, 06:15 AM
Say, what are you trying to pull here??

Everybody that knows anything knows that dressage back then was not as good as it is today. afterall, dressage has evolved. Where have you been buddy boy??

This woman is nothing more than a show off---a piaffe practically in place, a one handed passage to piaffe, and than a halt directly into piaffe. Everybody knows that piaffe needs to be travelling not how she is doing it.

And just what the hell is up with the halt?? She just halts--shouldn't her horse be jigging and bolting forward? Especially with all that damn electricity in that place??

And how come when I advance this video manually I can't seem to find the places where his chin is suppose to be glued on his chest with his eyes rolling back in his head with a horizontal curb and all this moment in time stuff? And while the hell is this rider not braced in her irons riding the horses mouth.

And why are his front legs not being flung way out in front like all the horses that get all those 10's by the judges.

And wait a minute here--- why isn't his tongue blue and hanging out of the side of his mouth??

Who do you think you are?? Do you think I was born yesterday or something??

siegi b.
Feb. 23, 2011, 08:09 AM
Very nice and harmonious ride..... also a perfect example to highlight how much more talented today's equine athletes are at these levels.

easykeeper
Feb. 23, 2011, 08:56 AM
Ahhhhh...love the Warmbloods of old. A hunk a hunk of burnin horse, and a noble nose to boot! Beautiful!

suzy
Feb. 23, 2011, 09:20 AM
In 1972 I thought Piaff was the best dressage horse ever. I still like him a lot but think that we have many far better horses today. In this video, he looks quick and tight and not terribly expressive. Also, if you look at the piaffe at the 4:58 minute mark, you will see that he is stepping backwards which is incorrect. I recall reading an article years ago in which Podhajsky was highly critical of this horse's piaffe. Anyway, very nice for the time.

Donella
Feb. 23, 2011, 09:27 AM
Very nice and harmonious ride..... also a perfect example to highlight how much more talented today's equine athletes are at these levels

No kidding.

angel
Feb. 23, 2011, 09:49 AM
I did not watch the whole thing, Mike, but from what I did watch, it was lovely. Two things that I immediately noticed. This woman had the good sense to have her stirrups short enough that she could appropriately weight them, AND she also worked very hard at keeping the horse's poll as the highest portion of the neck. Those things have been seriously lost today, and account for so many horses being ridden in these movements by force, and not willing coming through completely.

NoDQhere
Feb. 23, 2011, 10:36 AM
Very nice and harmonious ride..... also a perfect example to highlight how much more talented today's equine athletes are at these levels.

Agreed!

Petstorejunkie
Feb. 23, 2011, 10:39 AM
I can't believe it, but I'm going to say it, this is the first dressage video of ol' that does not make me think "the good ol days"

mzm farm
Feb. 23, 2011, 11:27 AM
The horse does look very relaxed in the beginning, but he is also not as collected nor working as hard as later on, when he appears a bit more tense. It is nice to see the aids the rider gives, at least for my own education.

I do not think he would be equally competitive today as he was in his day.

Very interesting to watch for comparison.

Velvet
Feb. 23, 2011, 02:56 PM
How about 1960 and Josef Neckermann?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IKb5Cu2ok

Velvet
Feb. 23, 2011, 02:59 PM
Or, 1976 with Granat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blGmBFbhDM8

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 23, 2011, 03:07 PM
To me, this vid clearly shows how "correctness" was more important than "flash". I just loved watching for that reason alone. Transitions from piaffe to passage is what I like to see-smooth without that crabby jump from one to another.

I also really love those older tests where there are zig-zags that don't go across the ring, and pirouettes that go one round instead of 2. They look livelier and happier to me. I love the 10 meter circles as well.

The controversy is that the horse is a bit strung out in the back at times into a more correct frame in front (not overbent, nose vertical ) vs. all the horses that need to be overbent to get those legs more underneath. What way is more correct? Who knows. What horses get both and win?

Gestalt
Feb. 23, 2011, 03:23 PM
I like the dressage of old. So many of todays top horses simply look like circus freaks. Not buying the statement that the horses of today have more "talent". They move differently.

Velvet
Feb. 23, 2011, 03:38 PM
I think Asbach could still be competitive today. I really like him.

netg
Feb. 23, 2011, 04:35 PM
I think Asbach could still be competitive today. I really like him.

Me, too.

I like him, and am not a huge Totilas fan (despite seeing many amazing things about him I only wish my horse and I could do to a 10th of his ability) because I simply like the leaner, leggier look.

I think there were different expectations - I like that observation that they could get more strung out, yet had more "correct" head carriage. Which should be called correct? I don't know. I wasn't alive yet when any of the videos posted on this thread came to be, so I'm naturally going to lean toward the "modern" look. I do find it fascinating to watch the old videos, though! I'm still trying to educate my eye, so being able to see and compare differences, and even read comments with my mental filter on helps.

suzy
Feb. 23, 2011, 04:43 PM
I think Asbach could still be competitive today. I really like him.

Agreed. Lovely, elegant horse with great self carriage.

D_BaldStockings
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:12 PM
Very nice and harmonious ride..... also a perfect example to highlight how much more talented today's equine athletes are at these levels.

I agree, yet also disagree...

I personally find something amiss in the shorter necked /longerlegged proportions of todays athletic prospects in combination with the hyper-suspension of gaits that leave the stride 'hovering' rather than smooth, round and long. And then there is the matter of straight movement of leg tracks without erratic deviation of twisting and winging...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEYlxfwWQpc

And 'the levels' to me implies the training (vs. talent would imply inborn) which has become theatric; whether one thinks that is an improvement over merely 'correct' is a matter of debate that I'm not going into.

Many riders today are less able than their horses...


On a breeding note, how many of these families of the 60's and 70's are still behind today's new greats 30-40 years later?

Makes one wonder how vital using currently successful stock will be in producing the greats 30 years from now?

Velvet
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:13 PM
I think Marzog was pretty cool and bendy. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXEcqyoi0dw

raff
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:14 PM
Another Olympic horse of Neckermanns!
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/beitrag/video/639740/Wim-Thoelkes-wilder-Ritt#/beitrag/video/639740/Wim-Thoelkes-wilder-Ritt

Velvet
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:15 PM
Bald,

Oh, but I do ADORE Quaterback. Flippy with his feet, and all. There's something I like about him. :)

alicen
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:20 PM
Tidy, but flat.
Lisenhoff got gold to Neckermann's bronze in the '72 Olympics.

alicen
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:26 PM
On a breeding note, how many of these families of the 60's and 70's are still behind today's new greats 30-40 years later?


Ummm, Liselotte Lisenhoff's daughter, Ann Kathrin Rath, is half owner of Totilas.

NOMIOMI1
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:40 PM
When I see a young horse backed and naturally swinging like a pendulum from the start, I can't help but admire the engineering involved in making the ever amazing modern day dressage horses.

Its borderline offensive to call them "circus freaks" unless you purely refer to the training (another discussion), since so much is involved in making these horses better for us competitors every year. We are in mind when those goals are being set.

My hats off to you breeders :)

While I can admire these animals of the past, and their lovely training, hating the newer models to me is just that... Hating.

SisterToSoreFoot
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:43 PM
Thanks for posting this. Such a nice quality video for being so old.

What I like about it is that the horse, lovely as he is, is well within the strata of horses I've ridden or ride now. Because he is not a freakishly fancy mover, I can imagine riding him, which makes me better able to imagine riding the movements correctly (since he is quite correct, overall).

Obviously, today's horses are much more bred-to-purpose. Because of that, their movement can distract from the correctness of their training when watching their videos. Watching a less talented horse who is quite correct/obedient is in some ways more beneficial for those of us AA's working with a variety of nice, but not world-beating movers.

NOMIOMI1
Feb. 23, 2011, 05:47 PM
Watching a less talented horse who is quite correct/obedient is in some ways more beneficial for those of us AA's working with a variety of nice, but not world-beating movers.

I think this is the most honest of post.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 23, 2011, 06:06 PM
Nomiomi1. I totally concur with your posts!

MelantheLLC
Feb. 23, 2011, 06:26 PM
Another Olympic horse of Neckermanns!
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/beitrag/video/639740/Wim-Thoelkes-wilder-Ritt#/beitrag/video/639740/Wim-Thoelkes-wilder-Ritt

LOL, please explain to a non-german speaker WHAT is going on in that vid? :lol:

meupatdoes
Feb. 23, 2011, 06:41 PM
Thanks for posting this. Such a nice quality video for being so old.

What I like about it is that the horse, lovely as he is, is well within the strata of horses I've ridden or ride now. Because he is not a freakishly fancy mover, I can imagine riding him, which makes me better able to imagine riding the movements correctly (since he is quite correct, overall).

Obviously, today's horses are much more bred-to-purpose. Because of that, their movement can distract from the correctness of their training when watching their videos. Watching a less talented horse who is quite correct/obedient is in some ways more beneficial for those of us AA's working with a variety of nice, but not world-beating movers.

I completely agree with this.
Great post.

stolensilver
Feb. 23, 2011, 06:46 PM
There are so many technical errors in the OP video I don't think Liselott Lisenhoff would have been pleased with it. Her horse was tense and choppy in trot at the start with insufficient bend in the half passes and all the pirouettes were wild and uncontrolled with the horse making 360 turn in just 3 strides. The FEI rules state it has to be 6-8 steps. He was also stepping backwards in at least two of his piaffes.

It is reassuring to see an Olympic horse look so "ordinary" (that isn't meant in a nasty way) Most of us have had horses who move at least as well as Piaffe does. Now the horses at the top of the sport are extraordinary movers, the sort of horse that almost none of us will ever own. While some of us still have ambitions to compete at GP I don't know how many of us have ambitions to compete against the likes of Totilas, Parzival and Mistral Hojris. The upper levels of dressage would feel more accessible if the top horses were still like Piaffe but breeding has moved on. Modern horses simply have better paces.

alicen
Feb. 23, 2011, 07:08 PM
LOL, please explain to a non-german speaker WHAT is going on in that vid? :lol:

It appears that the horse doesn't approve of the William Shatner look -alike's mounting style.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Feb. 23, 2011, 07:18 PM
LOL, please explain to a non-german speaker WHAT is going on in that vid? :lol:

Wim Toelke, a famous TV host, first said that getting horse slobber on him (after giving the treat) and having to get his suit cleaned is worth it from such a fine animal. He then asked if he could get on the horse and gets instructions. He then sits down too heavily, upsetting the horse ("See, it's not that easy! Horses are very sensitive...") and he is being instructed multiple times to let go of the curb. :)

But I was fairly impressed how well balanced Wim stayed during this, he didn't even have his feet in the stirrups yet.....

MelantheLLC
Feb. 23, 2011, 07:21 PM
Thanks, I was wondering why he invited some random guy in a business suit to get on his horse. ;)

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 23, 2011, 09:03 PM
Breeding may have improved breeds to perform with extraordinary movements, but breeding has not improved the riders or the training. Seems as tho the great riders of the past were less into shortcuts and more into correct riding.

The sport horses bred nowdays for improved gaits and aptitude for dressage may be a double-edge sword; does it cover for incorrect training or incorrect riding ?

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 23, 2011, 09:07 PM
I think Marzog was pretty cool and bendy. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXEcqyoi0dw

Love Marzog too!

D_BaldStockings
Feb. 23, 2011, 09:50 PM
Ummm, Liselotte Lisenhoff's daughter, Ann Kathrin Rath, is half owner of Totilas.

Actually, I was referring to the horse genetics: family relatives of yesteryear's winners in present day horses; the human family pass downs hadn't entered my mind :)

alibi_18
Feb. 23, 2011, 10:51 PM
and all the pirouettes were wild and uncontrolled with the horse making 360 turn in just 3 strides. The FEI rules state it has to be 6-8 steps. paces.

The rules have changed since that video. That was the way of doing pirouette in the old time. I don't know when the rules changed but it was after 1984.

This is Dr. Klimke for the Gold in 1984 Olympic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

raff
Feb. 24, 2011, 04:14 AM
LOL, please explain to a non-german speaker WHAT is going on in that vid? :lol:

What I read was that the reporter had said dressage horses were bought ready trained like 'circus poodles' so Neckermann invited him to get on and see how easy it is :lol:
I think the mare was frightened of the trailing mic cord really, and not so horrified by the mans seat.
Can you just imagine one of todays riders offering a reporter or better yet a critic to sit on their horse? Then we would sort the wheat from the chaff :)

Sandy M
Feb. 24, 2011, 12:03 PM
I'm at work, so I can't do a complete search, but in doing quick one was unable to find a video of Chammartin and Wolfdietrich. I once saw a video and remember being impressed, but can't find it now. The photographs I have seen are beautiful. Anyone able to find anything?

With regard to modern breeding, one wonders, despite Totilas, et al., how MUCH one can improve horses from the, oh, 18th Century forward model? Certainly TB breeding (sadly) is mostly focussed on speed alone (i.e., Mr. Prospector get are precocious speed-wise, forget that their leg conformation leaves something to be desired), and TB racehorses don't run much faster than their 18th Century forebears and indeed, certainly don't race for as long either distance wise or career wise. Standbred times for the mile have dropped from the "standard" of 2:04 mile to times in the 1:48 range since the breeds "origin" but that seems to be less attributable to breeding than to improved equipment. The dubious "improvement" of muscling in some QH lines appears to be due to a mutant gene with concurrent undesirable factors. Shrug.

I like the Piaff video, especially the lack of tension through most of the test and the "ridability" of the horse. If dressage is supposed to "improve" a horse and make it more "rideable," horses that are strictly "professional's" mounts just point to the fact that current FEI dressage is a world of it's own, quite apart from dressage as a basis of training. Whatever.

not again
Feb. 24, 2011, 12:21 PM
Given that today's grand prix no long includes walk pirouettes, double rein back and have reduced the number of zigs in the trot and canter changes of hand, the tests now are much easier physically and mentally.

Spyder
Feb. 24, 2011, 01:29 PM
Liselott Linsenhoff of Piaffe

Hind legs not engaged at the halt. Several irregular steps at the collected trot, which is insufficiently collected. Extended trot is impulsive and covers ground to the front. In the transition into the collected trot the strides become slower instead of shorter. The changes of tempo at the trot are not very clear, hardly to be distinguished. First piaffe and passage are good. The transition into the second piaffe, however, is not good and the piaffe itself rather irregular. Good second passage. Extended trot is rather hasty and irregular in tempo. Extended walk gains sufficient ground in front. Good flying changes at two strides; one fault in the flying changes at every stride. The rhythm of the canter is lost in the pirouette to the right; the rider spins the horse around. One fault in the flying changes at every stride on the center line. The pirouette to the left fails completely. The extended canter gains sufficient ground to the front. Very hesitant transition in the collected canter. In the passage the hind legs do not step sufficiently under the body of the horse. Judge C: 232 (1), H: 257 (1), M: 245 (2), E: 254 (1); B: 241 (1), Total 1229 (6).

This is from Podhajsky's Art of Dressage his last book. He attended the 1972 Olympics and in the book he critiqued every ride. The book also blasted the then-current state of dressage. Also contained in the book are the Olympic GP tests. Very interesting book, particularly in light of the current availability of the online videos of some of the tests.

ShannonLee
Feb. 24, 2011, 02:22 PM
I don't think Piaffe is an average mover at all - when you see how lofty he can get in the extensions and some of the other work.

My questions: isn't it possible that the training had an impact on how his hind legs power (or not) in the collection and how the back swings (or not), and how the cadence and schwung is improved (or not)?

Isn't it possible that todays phenomenal movers (the top horses) in the GP are improved by the training of today - none of them moved with the loft and cadence they show in the GP ring as young horses. Perhaps the trainers of today's great GP horses actually do spend more effort on preserving and enhancing gaits than making their horses rideable for the average rider?

Can anyone argue against the fact that the top GP horses of today have better hind legs (the collected work in particular) than most of the top International GP horses of yesteryear? I don't think that is all breeding, I think we need to give some credit to the training.

I believe the top horses of today are superior in many ways. I believe that it is due to an improvement in both breeding and training. I believe very few trainers can produce top GP horses, and this fact should not prevent these phenomenal horses and trainers from being inspirational to all.

not again
Feb. 24, 2011, 02:42 PM
"Back in the day" of these tests if a horse lapsed behind the vertical and the poll was no longer the highest point of the neck,the judge gave the movement a 4.
I can't imagine what would happen to the scores if that were the case today.....

opel
Feb. 24, 2011, 02:56 PM
Seems that there are people who fondly idealize the "old days" in many fields. Music, art, heck--even classic cars and victorian housing. For some, the old way was the only way and nothing can change their minds. For me, well I love my old, classic Corvette--but I can also admit that the newer ones are superior in most ways. Many in the "classic car fold" can't or won't see this.

I consider the current debate very similar. The dressage horses and training of old were lovely but things have progressed and generally for the better. Dressage is such a traditional sport...this debate has been going on for hundreds of years already. Seems every generation of dressage riders has it's critics who bemoan the advancements from the old way. In all though, I think the current top horses show improved engagement, much more relaxation of the loin and the base of the neck, and altogether are a positive advancement. Having the nose in front of the vertical may or may not be the absolute criteria by which to judge a dressage horse and rider--but having a tense and contracted neck along with a tense and contracted loin just can't be good....even if the nose IS in front of the vertical. I see so many of the "old school elite" who work this way (on video)...and have to admit that the newer riders and horses, in general, look more powerful yet more relaxed in their major muscle groups.

ShannonLee
Feb. 24, 2011, 03:19 PM
I agree wholeheartedly Opel:)

stolensilver
Feb. 24, 2011, 05:17 PM
The rules have changed since that video. That was the way of doing pirouette in the old time. I don't know when the rules changed but it was after 1984.

This is Dr. Klimke for the Gold in 1984 Olympic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Huh??? Reiner Klimke takes 6 steps in each of his pirouettes. And from reading Podhajsky's comments on Piaffe's Olympic ride, spinning the horse round in the pirouette was a bit of a habit for this combination.

I agree with Opel. There are some people who have rose coloured glasses when it comes to the riders of the past in dressage.

Sdhaurmsmom
Feb. 24, 2011, 06:20 PM
I wish I had video of Kyra Kyrklund and Matador in the 1988 Olympics in Seoul...there was a great pair and a performance that was fantastic, I thought. I've searched youtube and can't find anything on that - does anyone here have video of that ride?

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 24, 2011, 07:17 PM
Bravo to Opel and ShannonLee! To speculate. With EG, AVG,IW, or Carl Hester on Piaff how might that horses range of motion been changed? Has anyone seen the vid of Toto at 5 yrs? Looked great but not great enough to forsee what he became through training.

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 24, 2011, 07:29 PM
I wish I had video of Kyra Kyrklund and Matador in the 1988 Olympics in Seoul...there was a great pair and a performance that was fantastic, I thought. I've searched youtube and can't find anything on that - does anyone here have video of that ride?

I loved that pair! I have it on a World Cup video tape.

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 24, 2011, 07:31 PM
"Back in the day" of these tests if a horse lapsed behind the vertical and the poll was no longer the highest point of the neck,the judge gave the movement a 4.
I can't imagine what would happen to the scores if that were the case today.....

It should be a 4! It's not correct! Are the modern riders not capable of riding a horse in a proper frame-and winning?

ShannonLee
Feb. 24, 2011, 07:49 PM
I, and many others, do not agree that a movement should be an automatic 4 if a horse has a lapse behind the vertical. There are many other components than just the poll position. It however, should also not be a 10.

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 24, 2011, 08:19 PM
Shannon, you're right. Lapses are one thing, and used as an adjustment is pretty normal, but to me, riding that way constantly is worth a 4....or less

ToN Farm
Feb. 24, 2011, 08:22 PM
"Back in the day" of these tests if a horse lapsed behind the vertical and the poll was no longer the highest point of the neck,the judge gave the movement a 4.
I can't imagine what would happen to the scores if that were the case today..... Since you are a judge, how much do you mark BTV down?

EqTrainer
Feb. 24, 2011, 08:47 PM
One thing that is different - apparently you could show in boots!

ThreeFigs
Feb. 24, 2011, 09:24 PM
I think that was a demonstration of some sort? Does anyone know?

EqTrainer
Feb. 24, 2011, 10:10 PM
Good question. I just couldnt sum up enough energy to direct at the rest of it :lol:

belambi
Feb. 24, 2011, 10:15 PM
I wish I had video of Kyra Kyrklund and Matador in the 1988 Olympics in Seoul...there was a great pair and a performance that was fantastic, I thought. I've searched youtube and can't find anything on that - does anyone here have video of that ride?

No.. Butthis is them at the world cup final
http://www.youtube.com/user/belambi#p/u/36/_TicY-aE9oo

ShannonLee
Feb. 24, 2011, 11:03 PM
Wonderful! I always thought that Matador was Kyra's best match, and I think Kyra is a fabulous trainer and rider. I think that would be very competitive now. He was round, forward and through in almost all of the work, while still being uphill. Didn't he win this competition?

spirithorse
Feb. 24, 2011, 11:32 PM
Opal stated: Having the nose in front of the vertical may or may not be the absolute criteria by which to judge a dressage horse and rider

Article 413 - 4. At whatever pace the pirouette (half-pirouette) is executed, the horse, slightly bent in the direction in which it is turning, remaining “on the bit” with a light contact, turning smoothly around, and maintaining sequence and timing of footfalls of that pace. The poll remains the highest point during the entire movement

All of descriptions of each of the movements deliniates that the nose shall be slightly in front of the vertical. It is not a judge's place to defy these stipulated descriptions. The horse and rider combination in the video posted by the OP are at least attempting to adhere to the head/neck frame contained in the rules

MelantheLLC
Feb. 24, 2011, 11:34 PM
No.. Butthis is them at the world cup final
http://www.youtube.com/user/belambi#p/u/36/_TicY-aE9oo

That's one of those performances that makes me remember why I love dressage.

The Piaffe one, not so much.

opel
Feb. 25, 2011, 12:02 AM
Opal stated: Having the nose in front of the vertical may or may not be the absolute criteria by which to judge a dressage horse and rider


All of descriptions of each of the movements deliniates that the nose shall be slightly in front of the vertical. It is not a judge's place to defy these stipulated descriptions. The horse and rider combination in the video posted by the OP are at least attempting to adhere to the head/neck frame contained in the rules

I bet it just burns you up that the judges DO look at the whole picture as opposed to one detail of a complex dancing act. I personally think the beauty of dressage derives from the expression of power, positive muscle tension (which also means a lack of negative tension), freedom of the gaits, looseness in the bending and minimal aids to accomplish it all. Nose in front of the vertical is a part of, but not the whole picture. Focusing on any one aspect to the neglect of everything else is not healthy for the horse or a good plan to integrate the whole into a work of art.

alibi_18
Feb. 25, 2011, 12:35 AM
Huh??? Reiner Klimke takes 6 steps in each of his pirouettes. And from reading Podhajsky's comments on Piaffe's Olympic ride, spinning the horse round in the pirouette was a bit of a habit for this combination.

I agree with Opel. There are some people who have rose coloured glasses when it comes to the riders of the past in dressage.

I don't wear glasses, especially not pink ones.
Didn't say I liked the test or thought old dressage was better on the contrary... The rules have changed for the best, and they implemented a minimum of strides for the pirouette so it wouldn't look like that, rushed and spinned.
I've counted 5 strides for Klimke's pirouette but maybe I do need glasses?!? Anyway, that test done today wouldn't win the gold medal...not even make the 10th position....

As for me, horses have been bred to become better athletes in each of the specific discipline, and they are!
Those who say that the tests are easier, they might be but still, now the horses have to be more than perfect!

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 25, 2011, 04:52 AM
Klimke's won more than one medal, I think 6. If you count high points for correctness of horse and rider, minus all the glitzy hovering, would Klimke really not place well?

How high would some of today's top riders place if they had to have the poll highest and nose slightly ahead of the vertical?

If the nose is behind the vertical, doesn't that cause a domino effect to all other things that should be correct? Behind the vertical: not going forward, not riding back to front, horse on the forhand, rider fault,

Who's fault is it if a horse can't execute movements unless his nose is behind the vertical, and poll not highest?

Are the "better equine athletes" capable? Are present riders capable of executing movements in a correct frame?

How well would Klimke do with a horse like Totilas? How well would Gal do on a horse like Ahlerich?

suzy
Feb. 25, 2011, 09:16 AM
Princess and Spirit, you both repeatedly miss a really integral part of this whole argument about poll position--it is only ONE of the criteria used in judging each movement and not necessarily the most important. If a horse does an absolutely fabulous pirouette and is BTV for one out of the six or eight steps of the movement, should he really be punished with a 4!!! A 4 means insufficient and gives the horse no credit for all the good qualities of the movement.

ShannonLee
Feb. 25, 2011, 01:13 PM
Suzy, I agree with you completely! It's not the only important directive in the rules! It's really incredible that some people would take away 6 points out of ten if the horse comes behind the vertical. Its another story if the horse is pulled behind the vertical for an entire movement, and the hindlegs and back are hindered because of this - but in this case many other directives will not be sufficiently met, not just the poll position.

I don't think Ahlerich would place at the very top these days, because despite some very correct work (gorgeous changes) there were weaknesses apparent. For example his piaffe was typically (not always, of course) quite weak, lacking impulsion, often behind the leg and behind the bit. The passage was often open and lacked a high degree of cadence. The horses and riders today that are in the top three show amazing power and impulsion in the piaffe and passage in particular, but really throughout the entire test.

Which is an argument for another point in this discussion: Does it really mean that the horses are ridden incorrectly front to back if the nose dips behind the vertical, but the hind legs are very engaged, the horse is obviously uphill from croup to shoulder, and the horse is obviously ready and willing to go forward at the hint of the rider? I don't think so. We must look at the entire picture to make that determination. Oops, did I just say picture? For sure a still picture cannot tell the story in it's entirety!

stolensilver
Feb. 25, 2011, 02:21 PM
I think its really funny that on these kinds of threads there is an unwritten assumption that the top riders of today couldn't ride an entire test in front of the vertical if being momentarily BTV was severely penalised by the judges. Of course they could! The same with the movements that have been altered over the years. If those movements were in the GP test today there is no doubt that the Edwards and Isabells and Lauras of the world would have those movements trained for a 9.

The biggest difference in dressage in 1972 and dressage and 2011 is the quality of the horses. Dressage breeders have done a mighty fine job of improving the paces and balance and strength of their horses and deserve a pat on the back.

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 25, 2011, 04:01 PM
Princess and Spirit, you both repeatedly miss a really integral part of this whole argument about poll position--it is only ONE of the criteria used in judging each movement and not necessarily the most important. If a horse does an absolutely fabulous pirouette and is BTV for one out of the six or eight steps of the movement, should he really be punished with a 4!!! A 4 means insufficient and gives the horse no credit for all the good qualities of the movement.

Suzy, no, I am not missing that one criteria. In one of my posts I did state that sometimes BTV IS needed, like for setting up a movement, a correction in frame, or even for a specific movement that a horse has more of a problem getting the move with. My gripe is that it becomes more of the "norm", and too heavily relied on.

So is this too frequently used BTV a result of incorrect training, modern breeding, or rider relying on it too much?

Also, a correct frame, including proper poll , does effect the entire correctness of the movement . It does not stand alone.

Sdhaurmsmom
Feb. 25, 2011, 04:21 PM
No.. Butthis is them at the world cup final
http://www.youtube.com/user/belambi#p/u/36/_TicY-aE9oo

That is a great tape, thanks for posting the link - but I am talking about a pre-colic-surgery performance. I actually felt Kyra and Matador were robbed with their placing at fifth at those Olympics. I felt they should have been getting at least the bronze.

I got in contact with KK's media contact person and asked about it, and it seems that even THEY do not have a copy of that performance on tape - that seems crazy.
I know people saw it on TV and taped it - I just want to get my hands on a copy of that ride!:yes:

D_BaldStockings
Feb. 25, 2011, 04:46 PM
...
The biggest difference in dressage in 1972 and dressage and 2011 is the quality of the horses. Dressage breeders have done a mighty fine job of improving the paces and balance and strength of their horses and deserve a pat on the back.

Yes, certainly in many cases.

Or maybe not? Perhaps training really does count in upper level dressage? Maybe riding goals, too?
from 2008: "While most of the Olympic competitors are “classic” warmbloods, Balagur is a Russian Orlov Trotter, a breed developed to pull carraiges. Not only is he the only Orlov Trotter in the Olympics, he’s the Orlov Trotter that has put the breed on the International map."
"The 17 year old gelding began his career as a circus horse. He was then bought by the mounted police, where he remained until the age of 10. The late Elena Petushkova, one of Russia’s greatest Dressage riders, saw him in a parade and thought he had the potential to perform piaffe and passage. That potential has certainly been realized — like Poggio, Balagur is a two-time Olympian."

Or is 2008 past history, too?

-By the way, it is often an extreme type animal that 'jumps' a breeding program into the next level by raising the overall average by degrees toward his extreme type; which is a good thing -without swinging too far over the edge.
Then as other qualities become rarer, another extreme type is used to swing the pendulum back toward center, and usually past center... breeding cannot be static: every generation is a struggle to retain what you have gained and add something you desire, with alot of disappointment and disillusionment along the way.
It doesn't surprise me that bloodlines of the winning horses of yesteryear -even just 30 years ago, are not carried forward; but is does interest me that people look to todays winners and expect them to be represented in bloodlines 30 years from now...

Fortunately 'good enough' horses can be gymnasticized, trained and enjoyed, too. (That would be doing dressage, I believe.) :D

spirithorse
Feb. 25, 2011, 05:36 PM
Princess and Spirit, you both repeatedly miss a really integral part of this whole argument about poll position--it is only ONE of the criteria used in judging each movement and not necessarily the most important. If a horse does an absolutely fabulous pirouette and is BTV for one out of the six or eight steps of the movement, should he really be punished with a 4!!! A 4 means insufficient and gives the horse no credit for all the good qualities of the movement.

Susy;
Good points.
First, the poll high nose in front of the vertical is not 'one' of the criteria, it is the mandatory prerequiste.
Now, if the horse drops in btv in pirouette for one step, then the horse should not receive four, but should not receive above 7. Notice I said if the horse drops, if the rider is the cause then a 5/6 is proper.

IMO......On the subject of pirouette, the rule does not give an absolute size, however, the bigger the horse with a smaller hindleg circle forces to much weight on the hindquarter and the propulsion is relinquished to some degree....true canter rhythm lose is usually the result.

Also, I question the absolute step requirement. IMO......The horse should be the one to pirouette at it's best amount of steps. If the horse naturally pirouettes in four than that horse should not be punished for it. "BALANCE" is a key word here...the canter should be weighted just slightly more to the hindquarter, sufficiently that the rocking horse motions does not appear.:)

alicen
Feb. 25, 2011, 08:03 PM
[QUOTE=spirithorse;5449797]Now, if the horse drops in btv in pirouette for one step, then the horse should not receive four, but should not receive above 7. Notice I said if the horse drops, if the rider is the cause then a 5/6 is proper.QUOTE]

Gosh, I wasn't aware that horses and riders got separate marks. Is there a new score sheet?

spirithorse
Feb. 25, 2011, 08:28 PM
[quote=spirithorse;5449797]Now, if the horse drops in btv in pirouette for one step, then the horse should not receive four, but should not receive above 7. Notice I said if the horse drops, if the rider is the cause then a 5/6 is proper.QUOTE]

Gosh, I wasn't aware that horses and riders got separate marks. Is there a new score sheet?

Alicen;
one score for both, so guess what, it should reflect that. Simple.

Although, actually you may have hit upon something! :D Overall impressions of the two together, then impressions of how the horse moves, then impressions of how the rider uses the aids....in creating the presentation.:)

ShannonLee
Feb. 25, 2011, 08:47 PM
Spirithorse is apparently not a judge? - a score is a score, regardless if it is horse or rider caused - except the rider score. If there are many directives missing, the score is low, if there are no directives missing, it should be a 9 (or 10).

I have figured out how to copy and paste from the FEI rulebook finally! I guess if a horse ever loses any of the following objectives the score should be a 4? We would have a lot of 40 and 50 percents! I certainly don't see anywhere that the poll being the highest point is more important than cadence, impulsion or throughness.

Chapter I Dressage
Article 401 OBJECT AND GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF DRESSAGE
The object of dressage is the development of the horse into a happy athlete
through harmonious education. As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple,
loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving
perfect understanding with the athlete.
These qualities are revealed by:
• The freedom and regularity of the paces.
• The harmony, lightness and ease of the movements.
• The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the
hindquarters, originating from a lively impulsion.
• The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness
(Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or resistance.
2. The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is
required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the
athlete, remaining absolutely straight in any movement on a straight line and
bending accordingly when moving on curved lines.
3. The walk is regular, free and unconstrained. The trot is free, supple, regular
and active. The canter is united, light and balanced. The hindquarters are
never inactive or sluggish. The horse responds to the slightest indication of
the athlete and thereby gives life and spirit to all the rest of its body.
4. By virtue of a lively impulsion and the suppleness of the joints, free from the
paralysing effects of resistance, the horse obeys willingly and without
hesitation and responds to the various aids calmly and with precision,
displaying a natural and harmonious balance both physically and mentally.
5. In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is
said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched
according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace,
accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The
head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the
vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance
should be offered to the athlete.
6. Cadence is shown in trot and canter and is the result of the proper harmony
that a horse shows when it moves with well-marked regularity, impulsion and
balance. Cadence must be maintained in all the different trot or canter
exercises and in all the variations of these paces.
7. The regularity of the paces is fundamental to dressage

alicen
Feb. 25, 2011, 09:01 PM
Alicen;
one score for both, so guess what, it should reflect that. Simple.

Although, actually you may have hit upon something! :D Overall impressions of the two together, then impressions of how the horse moves, then impressions of how the rider uses the aids....in creating the presentation.:)

OK, spirithorse, I'll make sure to post the objectives where the horses can read them.

spirithorse
Feb. 25, 2011, 09:05 PM
:D
Read the descriptions of the movements and they all contain the notification of 'poll high nose in front of the vertical'....so that must be a fundamental criteria.......

Why is it that riders complain about this and try to make it less than it really is? Could it be that they find it actually hard to achieve that correct frame? Well, yes they must, simply because they will not release the front end of the horse...brakes on while engaging the engine.:eek:

So if the 70's and 80's competitors were spending more time in the correct frame, then that says something negatively about today's competitive dressage. Yes, some of those horses did not have the flash of some horses today, but dressage is not about starbursting flash, dressage is about correct performance.

spirithorse
Feb. 25, 2011, 09:12 PM
OK, spirithorse, I'll make sure to post the objectives where the horses can read them.

Alicen;
It is not about your foolishness. It is about what information the rider receives. I think there is some validity in your statement, simply because the image for the rider is broken into three segments. The rider than as the ability to visualize what the individual judges were seeing from their perspective......what is so wrong with that.:eek:

alicen
Feb. 25, 2011, 09:31 PM
Alicen;
It is not about your foolishness. It is about what information the rider receives.

"It" without a precedent has no meaning, unless the utterance is a commonly understood idiom, as in "it is raining."

ridealot
Feb. 25, 2011, 09:42 PM
I agree it has changed a great deal but I have to say I prefer the old type warmbloods.

D_BaldStockings
Feb. 25, 2011, 09:49 PM
5. In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is
said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched
according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace,
accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The
head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the
vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance
should be offered to the athlete.

...all the work...the horse must be “on the bit”.
A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched.
..accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact.
The head should remain in a steady position,
as a rule slightly in front of the vertical,
with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck,
and no resistance should be offered to the athlete.

Break it into small pieces.
It does mean 2x2 = 4
Really.

What part of light, consistent, soft, submissive, steady, supple poll don't you get?

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 25, 2011, 10:12 PM
"So if the 70's and 80's competitors were spending more time in the correct frame, then that says something negatively about today's competitive dressage. Yes, some of those horses did not have the flash of some horses today, but dressage is not about starbursting flash, dressage is about correct performance."

Quoted from Spirithorse


Riding a horse and getting more collection by BTV is much less difficult than teaching a horse collection within a proper frame. Maybe those riders way back when were more willing to take the long road and get it right.

ShannonLee
Feb. 25, 2011, 10:57 PM
It always comes down to this, and I don't agree that in front of the vertical is more important than impulsion or engagement or cadence or suppleness. I think it is important. Just not more important. The rules seem to say the same thing as I do.

Spirithorse, you and I will disagree.

spirithorse
Feb. 25, 2011, 11:14 PM
It always comes down to this, and I don't agree that in front of the vertical is more important than impulsion or engagement or cadence or suppleness. I think it is important. Just not more important. The rules seem to say the same thing as I do.

Spirithorse, you and I will disagree.

It is ok to disagree. I would ask of you to show me where the rules say the same thing as you do.

My clinician I ride for several times a year, as well as, some other credentialed individuals agree that the 'all' of the descriptions do stipulate the poll high nose in front of the vertical requirement.

So if it is contained therein, how can it be trivialized to non-requirement?

Anyway, your perspective is important to you and it is important to me because it manifests what I believe is the difference between then [70's] and now [2011]...correct versus incorrect. In these forty years, through the lessening of the required standards, judges have created incorrect presentations by the riders.

dressurpferd01
Feb. 26, 2011, 12:41 AM
It is ok to disagree. I would ask of you to show me where the rules say the same thing as you do.

My clinician I ride for several times a year, as well as, some other credentialed individuals agree that the 'all' of the descriptions do stipulate the poll high nose in front of the vertical requirement.

So if it is contained therein, how can it be trivialized to non-requirement?

Anyway, your perspective is important to you and it is important to me because it manifests what I believe is the difference between then [70's] and now [2011]...correct versus incorrect. In these forty years, through the lessening of the required standards, judges have created incorrect presentations by the riders.

I would LOVE to know what clinician you ride with, I really would.

No one's saying it's NOT a requirement, just that's it's PART of the requirement, not the whole thing. It's PART of the directive. You and the other neo-klassicists have hijacked this one single line in the requirements, and turned it into a fricking religion.

ThreeFigs
Feb. 26, 2011, 12:49 AM
Well said, dressurpferd!

dressurpferd01
Feb. 26, 2011, 12:55 AM
Well said, dressurpferd!

:D

spirithorse
Feb. 26, 2011, 02:03 AM
No one's saying it's NOT a requirement, just that's it's PART of the requirement, not the whole thing. It's PART of the directive. You and the other neo-klassicists have hijacked this one single line in the requirements, and turned it into a fricking religion.


Thank you for your post and for Beasmoms agreement. It demonstrates the disparity that exists in dressage.

First, this thread is a comparison from the 70's to now, so my posts have been related to exactly that.

Second, your post shows how so many riders choose to lessen the fundamental requirement for all the movements. Why, because of the inability to accomplish it !!!!!!

Third, it is not religious, it is CORRECT performance according to the requirements.

Now, apparently such is hard for you to comprehend....correctness versus bending the rules in order to fit the rider.

In the 70's it was more about correctness than a flashy horse, more about the rules than the stary riders.

When a 2010 horse is campaigned as a star and he cannot demonstrate a continuous 'correct' trot tempo, that is a sad state of affairs.......

raff
Feb. 26, 2011, 03:39 AM
What I take from this, is that in the olden days the horses more commonly made the error of being above the bit ,and nowadays the more common error is coming behind the bit.
Nowhere do I see people proposing that either above the bit or behind the bit are not errors.
Nowhere do I see horses perfectly on the bit all the time.
What I do see is more athletic modern horses now which to me is an improvement.

nomeolvides
Feb. 26, 2011, 04:39 AM
It should be a 4! It's not correct! Are the modern riders not capable of riding a horse in a proper frame-and winning?
Obviously not. Maybe you should go out and do better?

alibi_18
Feb. 26, 2011, 05:40 AM
Obviously not. Maybe you should go out and do better?

Please, don't ask for something you won't really wanna see! :yes:
SH has a nice website for you to look at if you truly want to understand his philosophy and appreciate his riding 'according to the rule' version.

stolensilver
Feb. 26, 2011, 07:52 AM
Yes, certainly in many cases.

Or maybe not? Perhaps training really does count in upper level dressage? Maybe riding goals, too?
from 2008: "While most of the Olympic competitors are “classic” warmbloods, Balagur is a Russian Orlov Trotter, a breed developed to pull carraiges. Not only is he the only Orlov Trotter in the Olympics, he’s the Orlov Trotter that has put the breed on the International map."
"The 17 year old gelding began his career as a circus horse. He was then bought by the mounted police, where he remained until the age of 10. The late Elena Petushkova, one of Russia’s greatest Dressage riders, saw him in a parade and thought he had the potential to perform piaffe and passage. That potential has certainly been realized — like Poggio, Balagur is a two-time Olympian.
:D

In the nicest possible way I think you are undervaluing just what a special horse Balagur is. His talent was so extreme that it shone out when he was being a police horse at a parade. For him to catch the eye of a professional rider in a situation like that says that he was displaying world class piaffe and passage without having had any dressage training (although I may be undervaluing his circus training by that comment. Some of the best circus riders are outstandingly talented).

Orlov trotters have always been seen as talented, versatile horses. A friend has a half bred one who is competing PSG/Inter 1 and who finds piaffe as easy as breathing. The sad thing is they are rarely used in breeding programmes. Balagur will not be accepted into any of the main warmblood studbooks so foals by him cannot get full warmblood papers. The only studbook I can think of that may recognise him is the AES which will grade stallions who have outstanding performance records even if they are from unusual bloodlines. Although it isn't a big and famous studbook yet it is 5th in the FEI rankings in show jumping and 9th in eventing. Impressive for such a young book.

In general what I think is happening in sports horse breeding is similar to what was happening in racehorse breeding (until the soundness issues crept in too far) which is that the overall quality is improving. Finding a horse who could jump 1m60 used to be difficult. Now they are easier to find although the superstars are still as rare as ever. The same is true of huge moving dressage horses. There are more of them around. The breeders are currently doing a good job but I do worry that soundness issues are becoming a problem in sports horses just as they have in TBs. I also dislike the narrowing of the gene pool that is happening, never a healthy occurrence. But, despite these concerns, the overall quality of sports horses has improved and it shows at all levels of competition.

not again
Feb. 26, 2011, 09:36 AM
Somewhere I read, but did not bookmark, a study that showed the average age of unsoundess/retirement from sport has dropped from 15 years to 9 years for horses from major European registries. I will try to relocate it....

Kyzteke
Feb. 26, 2011, 09:37 AM
Balagur is a Russian Orlov Trotter, a breed developed to pull carraiges. Not only is he the only Orlov Trotter in the Olympics, he’s the Orlov Trotter that has put the breed on the International map."
-By the way, it is often an extreme type animal that 'jumps' a breeding program into the next level by raising the overall average by degrees toward his extreme type; which is a good thing -without swinging too far over the edge.

Well, in this case we don't know. I don't believe Balagur has influenced modern breeding in any way at this point (and isn't likely to). First, because he came to prominence so late in his life (and if he was a police horse, isn't he a gelding? What police force uses stallions?), but mostly because he falls so far outside the circle of 98% of the top, international dressage competitors of today: animals that come from branded and approved European stock. That's the pool modern, top international riders draw from; they don't need to go searching for former cart horses, circus horses, etc. to find one.

It use to be that people found whatever horse they could -- even top competitors. At that point, breeding purpose-bred horses for dressage was a industry in it's infancy. In '72, it was really only 2 generations of performance horses being produced....and mainly in Germany.

Now, with the world producing so many purpose-bred horses, it's easier to find AND ride a modern day dressage horse. They can do the movements easier.

That being said, I often wonder if the TYPE of horse we are breeding is changing the TYPE of dressage we see. Then it becomes one of those chicken & the egg things that take on a life of their own.

Clearly the sport of '72 is very different than the sport of Today. Helen Keller could see that. And the changes in the tests to emphasize extensions and make the collection work sort of "close enough" (honestly, I haven't seen a GP horse really SIT in piaffe/passage in ages....instead they sort of shuffle along and flail their front feet out ).

There are many other differences as well, as posters have pointed out. Overall, I see the '72 test as more forward, more energetic, and "freer." The horses today don't really go "forward" -- everyone is always riding the brake -- maybe to get that elevation? But the horses are always almost curled in a ball.

Reminds me of those old Roman base carvings....maybe I can find a link.

I just wonder if this sort of thing will bastardize the sport into something that is much more of a "show" then just correct riding? Like what has happened to WP or saddle seat, which have become almost parodies of the originals.

To me, the main thing that separates "Dressage" (as defined by the highest level of the discipline) from stuff like WP & saddleseat/park and other sort of (sorry guys!) horrifically artifical types of riding is the Harmony. Where it looks like there is a lovely partnership, but no force. I don't see alot of that today...so much of it presents a very unsatisfying picture of obvious, forceful riding.

But that's just me. I think anything that can be viewed subjectively can be seen in vastly difference ways by folks.

To me, I would agree that superior horses are far easier to find these days, but I really think the riders were better back then for the most part. MUCH better. No water-skiing positions (seriously, if you have to push a horse like that, how "forward" can he truly be?), no flopping ankles/feet, no permanent choke holds on the curb...

With a few exceptions (like S. Peters), I really don't like the look of Today's Rider. They look like guys plopped in racing Porches -- they don't really know how to let all that power and talent out in a spirited, expressive, yet controlled way, so they just settle for control.

But then again, I think one of the breeding goals today IS to breed for a mind that will accept that sort of control. I'm betting many of the "Old Days" horses would not allow themselves to be ridden in the manner you see so often today....

Kyzteke
Feb. 26, 2011, 09:47 AM
In the nicest possible way I think you are undervaluing just what a special horse Balagur is. His talent was so extreme that it shone out when he was being a police horse at a parade. For him to catch the eye of a professional rider in a situation like that says that he was displaying world class piaffe and passage without having had any dressage training (although I may be undervaluing his circus training by that comment. Some of the best circus riders are outstandingly talented).


I love Balagur! And I'm sure his former circus training prepared him very well for dressage, as most of those horses are taught to carry themselves in extreme collection and work in fairly restrictive side reins to keep them in that frame.

They can't do all those tricks otherwise. I don't know why so many people "pooh-pooh" circus horses. I watch a special on the Freddie Knie family and everyone of them is a MASTER horseman/woman. What they can get those horses to do both u/s AND at liberty is simply amazing.

I'd love to have a ex-circus horse! Wouldn't that be the coolest thing?

stolensilver
Feb. 26, 2011, 09:59 AM
Somewhere I read, but did not bookmark, a study that showed the average age of unsoundess/retirement from sport has dropped from 15 years to 9 years for horses from major European registries. I will try to relocate it....

Ouch! Sadly that fits in very much with what vets are telling me and also feedback from people who work in equine insurance. I'd be very interested to read the study.

I've said this many times but it is relevant here. I think a lot of the unsoundness that is appearing in sports horses is due to people breeding from mares who go unsound early in life after very little work. IMO if a mare gets a suspensory injury (and these are so common now they are almost an epidemic) if she is doing anything less than Inter 1/ 1m50 jumping/ 3*** eventing then she should not be bred from. The same is obviously true of stallions. To me it doesn't matter how good the bloodlines are or how promising the horse was at the lower levels. If they don't stay sound till they are in their late teens then they aren't breeding material. I know that some mares never do any work under saddle and so it is hard to know what their soundness potential is but, to me, if a mare goes lame from little work she shouldn't have foals.

The stallion I'm going to use on my mare (and just to show I do follow my own rules she retired sound at the age of 16 having had no soundness issues throughout her working life) is still sound and competing at the age of 21. Hopefully the offspring from these two will have a better than average chance of staying sound too.

There are developments within the sports horse industry that worry me hugely. Grading stallions at 2 1/2 is, I think, far too young. Introducing assessments on the lunge is criminal. Lungeing is well known to break down young horses faster than any other sort of work. The young horse classes are also causing a division within breeding. Do you breed for a flashy foal? This is probably the best way to ensure that you make a profit from breeding. Or do you breed for a flashy youngster who will do well in young horse classes? Or do you breed for a less flashy but proven in terms of trainability and soundness horse and risk not being able to sell them until they are 6 or 7 and working PSG? It is very hard. Not making a loss when breeding horses is even harder. But when looking round for a young horse to buy there are several very popular bloodlines that I actively avoid because of soundness and collection issues. It is always illuminating to find out how many horses an older stallion has got competing at GP. Some of the big names have far fewer than you'd guess from the hype there is surrounding them.

nhwr
Feb. 26, 2011, 11:55 AM
^^
This is contrary to how breeding is conducted on a large scale. Larger breeding operations in European registries use mares who, for the most part, have no competition history beyond their initial testing. Most stallions don't compete either.

Additionally waiting til this late in life to breed is risky. Stallions frequently become sterile in their mid to late teens (one of my mares' sire became sterile at 13). Frequently the management practices and stresses of competition contribute to this. Teen aged maiden mares are notoriously difficult to get in foal. Mares produce their best offspring before they are 10, statistically.

If the age of horses being retired has indeed dropped that dramatically (though I really question that statistic), other factors need to be considered. The economy, management practices, the number of people participating in the sport with a limited amount of knowledge etc are al things that would contribute to this trend much more rapidly than genetics.

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 26, 2011, 01:13 PM
Are these top horses/riders of today capable of getting the same score if ridden in a proper frame (nose vertical or slightly ahead, poll high)?

ShannonLee
Feb. 26, 2011, 03:12 PM
I don't believe the age of retirement stat is valid - all you have to do is look at the ages of horses in International competition. They have to be 8 to start at GP (not sure about the age for jumpers, but it is similar) and most horses are well above that age. The top horses often start international GP at 9 or 10, and they keep going well into their teens, usually peaking after the age of 12.

stolensilver
Feb. 26, 2011, 07:58 PM
I don't believe the age of retirement stat is valid - all you have to do is look at the ages of horses in International competition. They have to be 8 to start at GP (not sure about the age for jumpers, but it is similar) and most horses are well above that age. The top horses often start international GP at 9 or 10, and they keep going well into their teens, usually peaking after the age of 12.

Those horses are the sound, trainable ones. The statistic refers to the horses who did not stand up to mental or physical side of the training and therefore never get to GP but do feature in insurance statistics which record the age of horses where they had to pay "loss of use". From several conversations over the last few years I've heard enough to believe that the age of breakdown of competition horses is getting younger. It is tragic both for the horse and for the owner whose hopes and dreams die with that horse's soundness. I hope the study can be found as it will be very interesting to read and find out how many horses were counted in the study. I have heard in the past that the average age at death of a competition horse in Europe is 8. That saddens me more than I can say.

AJC
Feb. 27, 2011, 06:25 AM
Spirithorse

Is this photo you?

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8976/spiritd.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/spiritd.jpg/)


and are those chains on the horses legs?

Is that in the FEI rules?.. and yet you are attemptimg to criticise others?

get a life.. pehaps try croquet or archery.. but for goodness sake, leave dressage to those posters on here who actually are talking from experience.

ToN Farm
Feb. 27, 2011, 09:09 AM
The statistic refers to the horses who did not stand up to mental or physical side of the training and therefore never get to GP but do feature in insurance statistics which record the age of horses where they had to pay "loss of use". What percentage of sport horse owners have a 'loss of use' policy? If that is the only way this statistic is gotten, than I question the accuracy. I don't see how it can be known how many horses break down or are retired in order to compare numbers from years back to present.

I can remember 30 years ago (I'm old) when people would not want to buy a horse even 10 years old, as that was considered old. I think horses are living longer and competing sound longer.

alibi_18
Feb. 27, 2011, 09:36 AM
I don't understand those stats...and how they are interpret.

Ex: If in 1970 there was a 100 show horses insured. 20 of them died at the age of 15 and collected the insurance.
And in 2010 there was 100 show horses insured. 10 of them died at the age of 9 and collected the insurance.

Average of age is 15 in 1970 but more deaths.
Average of age is 9 in 2010 but fewer deaths.

Maybe back in the time people wouldn't insure their horses as much as today?

With all the new technologies, improvement of security in all the discipline, show management, nutrition, drug rules, everything...I can only doubt that horses are now dying younger.

cheektwocheek
Feb. 27, 2011, 12:00 PM
Spirithorse

Is this photo you?

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8976/spiritd.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/spiritd.jpg/)


and are those chains on the horses legs?

Is that in the FEI rules?.. and yet you are attemptimg to criticise others?

get a life.. pehaps try croquet or archery.. but for goodness sake, leave dressage to those posters on here who actually are talking from experience.


Ouch!

ThreeFigs
Feb. 27, 2011, 01:38 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, that's the Eggspurt in action. Impressive, huh?

Count the "rules violations" in that photo.

HSS
Feb. 28, 2011, 05:18 PM
Corlandus- he would not only be competitive today, he should be clearly winning today.

Because for one thing, he manages to do an actual canter piroette, instead of a volte in canter- something I have given up even hoping to see in today's top competition.

But that's probably too much to hope for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDLaYsNP248

ShannonLee
Feb. 28, 2011, 06:53 PM
Really? Not one good canter pirouette in today's competitions?

spirithorse
Feb. 28, 2011, 07:05 PM
Really? Not one good canter pirouette in today's competitions?

Assured there are good pirouettes, however the following are errors:

If the tempo is slowed down from the approach tempo, it is not a good canter pirouette.

If the horse is overweighted to the hindquarter, it is not a good canter pirouette.

If the horse is moving in a rocking horse manner, it is not a good canter pirouette, because the horse is not in balance.

Calamber
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:49 AM
Thanks for posting this. Such a nice quality video for being so old.

What I like about it is that the horse, lovely as he is, is well within the strata of horses I've ridden or ride now. Because he is not a freakishly fancy mover, I can imagine riding him, which makes me better able to imagine riding the movements correctly (since he is quite correct, overall).

Obviously, today's horses are much more bred-to-purpose. Because of that, their movement can distract from the correctness of their training when watching their videos. Watching a less talented horse who is quite correct/obedient is in some ways more beneficial for those of us AA's working with a variety of nice, but not world-beating movers.

Right. The higher movements are just that, they are bouncy and flashy and cover up a world of bad riding and the horses are just that, purpose bred. I wonder how Totilas does over jumps, long term he would destroy just about every joint in his body and I do think he is a fine horse, just not what I would ever breed unless I was looking for a really fancy, big hackney. I just liked watching Lisenhof's leg which didn't use the spur like a sword. As far as the families, if they are still in it, will go with the flash if they want to still be in business.

mickeydoodle
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:56 AM
How about 1960 and Josef Neckermann?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IKb5Cu2ok

hmmmmmmm, above the bit, lateral walk, no suspension nor impulsion, no bend, hollow back, etc

Calamber
Mar. 1, 2011, 01:05 AM
In the nicest possible way I think you are undervaluing just what a special horse Balagur is. His talent was so extreme that it shone out when he was being a police horse at a parade. For him to catch the eye of a professional rider in a situation like that says that he was displaying world class piaffe and passage without having had any dressage training (although I may be undervaluing his circus training by that comment. Some of the best circus riders are outstandingly talented).

Orlov trotters have always been seen as talented, versatile horses. A friend has a half bred one who is competing PSG/Inter 1 and who finds piaffe as easy as breathing. The sad thing is they are rarely used in breeding programmes. Balagur will not be accepted into any of the main warmblood studbooks so foals by him cannot get full warmblood papers. The only studbook I can think of that may recognise him is the AES which will grade stallions who have outstanding performance records even if they are from unusual bloodlines. Although it isn't a big and famous studbook yet it is 5th in the FEI rankings in show jumping and 9th in eventing. Impressive for such a young book.

In general what I think is happening in sports horse breeding is similar to what was happening in racehorse breeding (until the soundness issues crept in too far) which is that the overall quality is improving. Finding a horse who could jump 1m60 used to be difficult. Now they are easier to find although the superstars are still as rare as ever. The same is true of huge moving dressage horses. There are more of them around. The breeders are currently doing a good job but I do worry that soundness issues are becoming a problem in sports horses just as they have in TBs. I also dislike the narrowing of the gene pool that is happening, never a healthy occurrence. But, despite these concerns, the overall quality of sports horses has improved and it shows at all levels of competition.

This soundness issue creeping in is not a minor, or an aside issue. It is the main issue, and is, in the long run, why the big, high moving horses will not hold up. They just will not and they also do not catch the eye as an overall smoothly beautiful movement to me. The horses look better because they are developed differently in diets and supplements in many cases, have a built in beauty because in some efforts have been made to achieve a level of temperament needed for a high level performer. It just seems to me that people like to be overwhelmed with the style, rather than the overall appearance of balance, willingness, grace, and that so difficult to achieve look of obedience without such strain. That is the main thing that I see in the older horses that I do not see today.

I think it is very tragic that Balagur would not have been admitted to the stud. Why? Because he is from Russia and a trotter? Perhaps and there you have the European oligarchic view creeping in again. Big money begats big egos.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 1, 2011, 01:37 AM
"I think it is very tragic that Balagur would not have been admitted to the stud. Why?"


I think because he was a gelding...

suzy
Mar. 1, 2011, 09:20 AM
From several conversations over the last few years I've heard enough to believe that the age of breakdown of competition horses is getting younger.

I added the emphasis in the quote above because it is the most pertinent aspect of this post. You are admitting this is all hearsay, which is what is so disturbing about many posts I see on so many internet forums. There is no supporting evidence. And you wonder why people don't take you seriously...well, at least not people who engage in critical thinking.

Edited to say: Beasmom, love your post. I needed a giggle this morning.

17Rider
Mar. 1, 2011, 10:11 AM
I can remember 30 years ago (I'm old) when people would not want to buy a horse even 10 years old, as that was considered old. I think horses are living longer and competing sound longer.

Me too... horses over 10 were semi retired or shown by kids.
Even now when they announce their ages in top showjumping I think, wow! 15!

alicen
Mar. 1, 2011, 11:23 AM
On the CHIO Aachen 2005 results page Balagur is listed as a stallion.

Donella
Mar. 1, 2011, 11:49 AM
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8976/spiritd.jpg


Lord help us. Why even argue with someone who rides like that?? Chains? Pulling on the horse's face over the jump? It seems like the biggest critics of our sport are always these types of people... why do we even entertain them?

alibi_18
Mar. 1, 2011, 12:08 PM
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8976/spiritd.jpg


Lord help us. Why even argue with someone who rides like that?? Chains? Pulling on the horse's face over the jump? It seems like the biggest critics of our sport are always these types of people... why do we even entertain them?

You have forgot this one...: http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg

ThreeFigs
Mar. 1, 2011, 08:05 PM
On the CHIO Aachen 2005 results page Balagur is listed as a stallion.


But, but, that would ruin my joke!

I found a video of him at Aachen. After careful review, I think Balagur's fertility is severely compromised -- by his lack of testicles.

alicen
Mar. 1, 2011, 10:22 PM
I know, I know. I liked your joke, too. But in 2009 Aachen had him still in possession of his manhood. http://results.chioaachen.de/resultpage09/DRE/D2.asp

alibi_18
Mar. 1, 2011, 11:14 PM
Maybe he is cryptorchid? :D

stolensilver
Mar. 2, 2011, 06:09 AM
I added the emphasis in the quote above because it is the most pertinent aspect of this post. You are admitting this is all hearsay, which is what is so disturbing about many posts I see on so many internet forums. There is no supporting evidence. And you wonder why people don't take you seriously...well, at least not people who engage in critical thinking.

Edited to say: Beasmom, love your post. I needed a giggle this morning.

Here's a suggestion. Instead of ignoring the information about declining soundness in warmbloods, go out and find it for yourself. It is easy to read a bulletin board and be insulting to others who have taken the time to do the legwork and who are willing to share it. It is far harder to do that legwork yourself. Since "hearsay" should "not be taken seriously" go and talk to sports horse vets and equine insurance professionals and find out the facts for yourself, as I have done. Or is that too much trouble?

Bats79
Mar. 2, 2011, 07:31 AM
hmmmmmmm, above the bit, lateral walk, no suspension nor impulsion, no bend, hollow back, etc

Is that what you believe or what you think other people believe? Because it certainly isn't what the horse and rider are showing.

suzy
Mar. 2, 2011, 08:42 AM
Here's a suggestion. Instead of ignoring the information about declining soundness in warmbloods, go out and find it for yourself. It is easy to read a bulletin board and be insulting to others who have taken the time to do the legwork and who are willing to share it. It is far harder to do that legwork yourself. Since "hearsay" should "not be taken seriously" go and talk to sports horse vets and equine insurance professionals and find out the facts for yourself, as I have done. Or is that too much trouble?

I could not find any statistics to support what you are saying. Perhaps you could post the link to your information source. That's all I'm really getting at--not meant to be insulting, just frustrated by lack of supporting evidence.

stolensilver
Mar. 2, 2011, 08:55 AM
suzy that's the whole point. The information isn't in print or on line in a format that you can link to. The insurance companies own the data but it is not in their interests to publish it. Why should they? It won't improve their profits. The vets will talk about their opinions and what they are seeing if you talk to them but that doesn't get published because it isn't research.

So lets think about research. How would you do a study to prove that warmbloods are going lame at an earlier age? Comparing then with now would be laughed at and turned down by any reputable journal. Doing a prospective, randomised, double blinded trial with enough horses entered into it for the study to be adequately powered would cost millions. Who is going to fund it? So there's no research.

The only bit of circumstantial evidence is the cost of insuring dressage horses. That has gone up and up and up. Dressage used to be considered a low risk sport and dressage horses were in the cheapest category. Now they are in the same category as advanced showjumpers and advanced eventers. This has happened because the owners of dressage horses are making more claims on their insurance. In other words more dressage horses are going lame than they used to. People can come back and argue that training methods have changed and veterinary investigation methods have changed and this can account for the higher insurance premium on dressage horses. I'd counter that by saying that it doesn't account for the entire change and if you speak to people within the industry, as I have, they will tell you that there is a massive increase in the number of early onset lamenesses in dressage horses, especially suspensory ligament damage which I've heard described as a epidemic.

Call it hearsay all you wish. Its the best evidence available right now and if you are in doubt, ask your vet and insurance workers to find out their opinion. I'm convinced there is a real problem and have changed the way I look at horses because of it. Any horse I buy has to have come from a long line of proven performers that stayed sound into their teens. This includes the dam. If she is a lifelong broodmare I have to know that she became a broodmare through the owner's choice, not because she had broken down and could no longer be ridden. I will not buy a young horse from an unsound dam or one that has had any sort of soft tissue injury.

suzy
Mar. 2, 2011, 09:28 AM
This is an interesting topic on a number of levels. I am not sure why insurance companies would not be willing to share information on soundness claims since it really should not affect their profits. Either a person is going to insure their horse or they aren’t. In fact, wouldn’t a person be more likely to insure if they saw a large number of people collecting on claims. This would seem to reinforce the need for insurance, driving a larger number of people to insurance companies. Also, insurance companies seem pretty forthcoming about statistics on car accidents, sporting accidents, house fires, etc. The only thing that would prevent me from insuring would be if a company had a reputation for not paying on their claims; in this case, I’d just find a company with a good reputation.

Anyway, you are right about the difficulties inherent in doing research to determine whether warmbloods are having more soundness issues at an earlier age. Probably the only source of halfway reliable information is going to come from insurance companies. Although vets’ opinions on the topic are interesting, they don’t have data the way insurance companies do, and there is also an element of personal bias.

Regarding higher costs for insuring dressage horses, this brings up the question of whether our breeding practices are at fault or our training practices or maybe both, although I’m inclined to believe the latter. The breed organizations in Europe are selective about the horses they approve, and conformation, as you know, is among the criteria they use in selecting horses. The better conformed horses should (theoretically) hold up better than horses with obvious flaws; particularly if the less than ideal horses tend to pass those flaws on to the next generation.

No argument whatsoever regarding what mares should be used for breeding. I witnessed firsthand at a breeding farm the results of breeding less than ideal mares. And, it wasn’t just soundness issues that got passed along. Mares have a large bearing on the personality of the foals and, to me, that is every bit as important as physical soundness. I don’t care how perfect a foal’s conformation is or how spectacular the movement; if he doesn’t have the brain to match, I don’t want to waste my time.

alibi_18
Mar. 2, 2011, 09:35 AM
Suspensory ligament injuries can be effectively treated and are not always career ending...Maybe these claims are just for vet treatment...and has nothing to do with early retirement...

Since dressage was considered a low risk sport, maybe people were not getting insurances for their horse since they were considered less pricey...
And maybe insurance company decided to increase their premium because they realised dressage was as much risky as any other sports...

And have you realised that, since the last decade, insurance companies have increased their rate exponentially...for everything.

FEI has put rules about ages for showing because back in the ol' day people were trying to compete with too young horses at too high level.

Drug rules have been implemented because people back in the ol' day were abusing of it.

So we could believe that insurance companies have increased their rates because back in the ol' day, people claimed a lot and we are now paying more for it.

netg
Mar. 2, 2011, 12:09 PM
Interesting - my insurance premium is the lowest rate my company offers, I believe, because my horse is a dressage horse.

However, he's also not a warmblood. They have his jockey club number, and can access his race records showing he was never pulled up, never unsound, just slow. Since my next horse is more likely to be a WB I'm curious to find out if my insurance premiums will be at a higher percentage with it.

suzy
Mar. 2, 2011, 01:08 PM
Good points, Alibi. It's also important to remember that there is a tremendous amount of fraud in the insurance industry, and horsepeople abuse the system too. That affects the insurance rates for *all* of us.

nhwr
Mar. 2, 2011, 01:12 PM
Here's a suggestion. Instead of ignoring the information about declining soundness in warmbloods, go out and find it for yourself. I think suzy point is (excuse me for paraphrasing) is you are making an unsubstantiated claim, not offering information. And then saying that your claim is the best available information. That is just circular logic.

Insurance prices have risen for dressage horses because their value has increased. Value is the single most important factor in determining risk. One thing insurance companies understand very well is how to determine financial risk.

If WB were actually breaking down at an earlier age, premiums would start to spike as horses approach that age or insurance companies would simply decline to cover horses at that age or older. That isn't happening to my knowledge.

And your point about insurance companies not wanting to share data on the topic is also off the mark. Insurance companies are pretty forthcoming with actuarial data but they can't share what doesn't exist.

cyndi
Mar. 2, 2011, 01:16 PM
stolensilver wrote:
The only bit of circumstantial evidence is the cost of insuring dressage horses. That has gone up and up and up. Dressage used to be considered a low risk sport and dressage horses were in the cheapest category. Now they are in the same category as advanced showjumpers and advanced eventers.

Not true in my case. I have had dressage horses insured for decades. The the cost of insurance has not gone up at all. It's been 3% of value as long as I can remember - and, in fact, I most recently insured with another company and got below 3%. I also know that percentage is cheaper than what other discplines pay. I have insured warmbloods and non-warmbloods - no price difference whatsoever.

ShannonLee
Mar. 2, 2011, 03:54 PM
Exactly my experience, I have paid between 2.9 and 3% for mortality ever since I have insured my dressage horses, which is many years now. I have never collected on mortality, but have collected on major medical, which helped me pay for a bunch of ulcerguard once, and on a colic surgery another time. All my horses compete well into their late teens, in fact my WEG horse from 2002 is still doing GP with another good rider at the advanced age of 19 years, without any significant help.

Some people would like to believe that we all work our horses to an early grave, but I think consistent good training of horses that have three balanced gaits and four good legs will keep most horses going well into their advanced years.

Breeders need to keep in mind 3 balanced gaits and 4 good legs when they breed for more sport aptitude - for sure sometimes they do forget these important factors!

stolensilver
Mar. 2, 2011, 06:02 PM
FWIW the point about insurance isn't that premiums have gone up year on year, of course they have. It is that the category that dressage fits into has risen to higher and higher risk categories in the past 20 years. Or at least it has with all the insurance companies I've had quotes from. This has nothing to do with value. It has everything to do with the number of claims.

spirithorse
Mar. 2, 2011, 06:13 PM
Actually there have been several studies showing that dressage horses actually have more muscle injuries than other venues.
Here is a study I found most interesting:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19469235

nhwr
Mar. 2, 2011, 08:00 PM
It is that the category that dressage fits into has risen to higher and higher risk categories in the past 20 years. Or at least it has with all the insurance companies I've had quotes from. This has nothing to do with value. It has everything to do with the number of claims.

That isn't how insurance works.

Velvet
Mar. 3, 2011, 11:01 AM
I keep thinking the equalizer here is pasture/paddock injuries. Most injuries are not related to their sport/activity, it's related to being an overgrown toddler turned out to play. :yes:

suzy
Mar. 3, 2011, 11:30 AM
Velvet, that has been my experience. With one exception, my horses and those of my boarders have not had riding related injuries but injuries from being really goofy in the paddock. The exception was a horse that damaged his suspensory ligament, being crazy while his owner longed him at a show.

ShannonLee
Mar. 3, 2011, 01:48 PM
The study that the link Spirithorse provided concludes this:

CONCLUSIONS: The movements of the horse are significantly different when ridden on loose reins compared to the position used in collected trot. The exact degree of neck flexion is, however, not consistently correlated to the movements of the horse's limbs and trunk at collected trot. An extremely elevated neck position can produce some effects commonly associated with increased degree of collection, but the increased back extension observed with this position may place the horse at risk of injury if ridden in this position for a prolonged period.

Interesting conclusions. Hmmm - the high neck might just cause back extension and not back flexion........ might predispose to injury.

mickeydoodle
Mar. 4, 2011, 12:00 AM
Count the strides in the original video canter pirouettes- there should be 6-8 strides by all the rule books, articles, etc but in the video you see 3-4 at most in the full pirouette. Compare to most "modern" horses. To me the original video shows a fairly stiff horse, with limited scope in the gaits, and minimal benf in the lateral work.

HSS
Mar. 5, 2011, 04:00 PM
Really? Not one good canter pirouette in today's competitions?
I don't consider a canter pirouette that's 10m or more in diameter to be "sufficient". It lacks the basic quality of collection & engagement. Reviewing the stratospheric GP scoring Totalis left me wondering where the marks were coming from. The pirouettes were huge, the trot extensions had no lengthened frame, no overtrack, were hardly distinguishable from the supposedly collected. I've been in this sport since the 70's so I have confidence in my eye & training too. I don't see correct movement, no.

AlterBy
Mar. 5, 2011, 11:25 PM
I don't consider a canter pirouette that's 10m or more in diameter to be "sufficient". It lacks the basic quality of collection & engagement. Reviewing the stratospheric GP scoring Totalis left me wondering where the marks were coming from. The pirouettes were huge, the trot extensions had no lengthened frame, no overtrack, were hardly distinguishable from the supposedly collected. I've been in this sport since the 70's so I have confidence in my eye & training too. I don't see correct movement, no.


I thought the marks were coming from highly knowledgeable international judges. Maybe not I guess... :confused:

spirithorse
Mar. 5, 2011, 11:36 PM
I thought the marks were coming from highly knowledgeable international judges. Maybe not I guess... :confused:

The point made by HSS is a valid one. The FEI and USEF make a huge point of the continuing education of the judges...........hmmm.

The educational program definitely receives a failing grade, simply because the FUNDAMENTAL perameters of all the movements is not being met. This violation is crucial because it directly and proximately affects the attributes of all the movements.

Now compound that with a requirement of constraining a horse in pirouette to the point that it is forced to transfer all its weight to the hindquarter and make 6 steps rather than the 3 or 4 it is capable of doing.

Pirouette is supposed to be balanced! Loading the hindquarter is not balancing the horse as is quite evident in the video of SRS's performance of elegant pirouettes. So just how are these judges being so highly knowledgable? The violations clearly show lack of knowledge and/or the inclusion of their 'personal' opinions which disregard the rules.

There are images of Totilas at WEG 2009 which clearly demonstrate the horse is not meeting the requirements.....oh I forgot he is a god.:eek:

AlterBy
Mar. 5, 2011, 11:47 PM
Ah...I see my friend SH tried to answered...So glad he's on my ignore list as my eyes won't have to suffer reading his answer that surely tells that everyone else is sooo wrong and he is sooo right...

How's your gray mare? Still framed by the rule?

HSS
Mar. 6, 2011, 12:22 AM
A new low- defended by **SH**
I'm outta here

AJC
Mar. 6, 2011, 01:44 AM
The point made by HSS is a valid one. The FEI and USEF make a huge point of the continuing education of the judges...........hmmm.

The educational program definitely receives a failing grade, simply because the FUNDAMENTAL perameters of all the movements is not being met. This violation is crucial because it directly and proximately affects the attributes of all the movements.

Now compound that with a requirement of constraining a horse in pirouette to the point that it is forced to transfer all its weight to the hindquarter and make 6 steps rather than the 3 or 4 it is capable of doing.

Pirouette is supposed to be balanced! Loading the hindquarter is not balancing the horse as is quite evident in the video of SRS's performance of elegant pirouettes. So just how are these judges being so highly knowledgable? The violations clearly show lack of knowledge and/or the inclusion of their 'personal' opinions which disregard the rules.

There are images of Totilas at WEG 2009 which clearly demonstrate the horse is not meeting the requirements.....oh I forgot he is a god.:eek:

What a crock.. Do you actually read the drivel that you post?.. Podaisky states that there were too few stride in her pirouettes also.. but.. obviously you know better.

spirithorse
Mar. 6, 2011, 04:31 AM
Fact: in the 1955 video canter pirouette appears in a five count and a six count

Fact: In Miracle of the White Stallions, canter pirouette is demonstrated as a four count in a three circle pirouette.

Fact: In Miracle of the White Stallions, canter pirouette is demonstrated in four and six count.

So; does the Col.'s comment regard a correct pirouette or a competitive one?

Lipizaners are small horses and can do a six count with ease. Larger horses do not have that luxury. If you watch the SRS horses are not in a rocking horse mode like the modern competitive dressage horse.

:eek:Now to really rattle the cage, the rules do not mandate the amount of steps:
7. The quality of the pirouettes (half-pirouettes) is judged according to the suppleness, lightness and regularity, and the precision and smoothness of the entrance and exit. Pirouettes (half-pirouettes) in canter should be :eek: executed in six to eight strides – full pirouettes – and three to four strides – half-pirouette

Notice that amount of steps is NOT part of the judging criteria! So this 1972 video does demonstrate a CORRECT pirouette!

belambi
Mar. 6, 2011, 04:43 AM
please give commentary on this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc-uobzjQQU

alicen
Mar. 6, 2011, 11:44 AM
So; does the Col.'s comment regard a correct pirouette or a competitive one

Podhajsky's comment (courtesy of Spyder's post # 41) is specifically about Linsenhoff's pirouette in the 1972 Olympics and which Linsenhoff again demonstrates in the OP's tape.

HSS
Mar. 6, 2011, 11:48 AM
I thought the marks were coming from highly knowledgeable international judges. Maybe not I guess... :confused:

Dressage is not some arcane mystery. If it's clearly presented it's obvious.
The "mystery" (if in fact there is one) is in the training to produce the GP horse & GP rider. Or in this example, why the scores for something hardly discernible.

meupatdoes
Mar. 6, 2011, 11:57 AM
:eek:Now to really rattle the cage, the rules do not mandate the amount of steps:
7. The quality of the pirouettes (half-pirouettes) is judged according to the suppleness, lightness and regularity, and the precision and smoothness of the entrance and exit. Pirouettes (half-pirouettes) in canter should be :eek: executed in six to eight strides – full pirouettes – and three to four strides – half-pirouette

Notice that amount of steps is NOT part of the judging criteria! So this 1972 video does demonstrate a CORRECT pirouette!

What part of "should" are you not understanding here?

Here are the FEI directives for Transitions:
The changes of pace and variations within the paces SHOULD be performed exactly at the prescribed marker.

So I guess according to your interpretation of "should", doing transitions exactly at the prescribed marker is NOT part of the judging criteria, and doing a transition three strides after the prescribed letter does demonstrate CORRECT performance.

alicen
Mar. 6, 2011, 03:39 PM
1972 Individual medalist scores (analogous to today's Grand Prix Special)

gold -Linsenhoff 72.3%
silver-Petushkova 69.7%
bronze-Neckermann 69.2%

Linsenhoff won the Grand Prix with 70.5%.

Marks taken from Podhajsky's The Art of Dressage.

spirithorse
Mar. 6, 2011, 06:33 PM
Should is used incorrectly. The correct word if it is mandated would be shall or must.

alibi_18
Mar. 6, 2011, 06:50 PM
Now the rules are incorrectly written... :D

belambi
Mar. 6, 2011, 07:13 PM
the word should... Indicates that the subject of the sentence has some obligation to execute the sentence predicate; will likely (become or do something) Indicates that the subject of the sentence is likely to execute the sentence predicate

meupatdoes
Mar. 6, 2011, 09:26 PM
Should is used incorrectly. The correct word if it is mandated would be shall or must.

This is your ticket to the Big Time.

Now you can do everything however incorrectly you want and then tell the judges it is actually CORRECT dressage because otherwise the rules would have said "shall" or "must". If the rule says the canter pirouette "should" be 6-8 steps, this actually means any number of steps OTHER THAN 6-8!!


OR, you can read the rules contextually like a normal person.

alicen
Mar. 6, 2011, 10:24 PM
Not to worry, Meupatdoes, I'm sure spirithorse will address the USEF's language problem along with his bitless bridle grievance.

HSS
Mar. 7, 2011, 11:51 AM
Not to worry, Meupatdoes, I'm sure spirithorse will address the USEF's language problem along with his bitless bridle grievance.

Bitless bridle???? What pray tell is this???

nhwr
Mar. 7, 2011, 12:06 PM
^^^

I wish you hadn't ask that question :no:

We are in for it now.

ThreeFigs
Mar. 7, 2011, 12:07 PM
Look around, HSS, you can find references to it. SH has a website with all his rants, marketing, grievances, etc. right there in one convenient place. Entertaining reading.

But I won't provide the link!

Yes, we're in for it now...

spirithorse
Mar. 7, 2011, 12:47 PM
:D:yes::lol:

alibi_18
Mar. 7, 2011, 02:23 PM
@SH, still aiming to run for president next year?

spirithorse
Mar. 7, 2011, 02:40 PM
@SH, still aiming to run for president next year?

Nah, let you have the limelight that you seem to crave.:winkgrin:

EasyStreet
Mar. 7, 2011, 03:24 PM
LOL @ Kahluha2!!! I think the exact same thing whenever I watch Dr. Reiner Klimke ride!!:lol: