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View Full Version : Lets talk about videotaping without your knowledge...



Bethe Mounce
Feb. 12, 2011, 12:39 AM
Those of you who coach and train...how do you feel about the lessons you teach being videotaped without your knowledge? Meaning...you are teaching, parents are watching and dad is videotaping the whole ride but you think all he is doing is taking pictures. Nothing I do or say is secret nor am I ashamed of it. But...I am uncomfortable being videotaped with sound without my prior knowledge. Just curious what others think about this...

atr
Feb. 12, 2011, 12:53 AM
Goodness, really? I always try and get my clinic rides videotaped for my own later edification (my best learning tools between lessons) and I've never thought about a trainer being worried about it.

indyblue
Feb. 12, 2011, 03:29 AM
I would be pissed if my trainer had an issue with me videoing my lesson.Never come across a trainer who has an issue with it.

kdow
Feb. 12, 2011, 05:38 AM
As someone with a nice camera who might offer to video a lesson for someone - I would personally never do it without running it past the people involved just to be polite, even if it was just for the rider's personal use. It's just manners, imo.

(If it wasn't entirely for the rider's personal use - if there was some expectation of it being used commercially as a sale video or something of that nature, then I would definitely be clear about that and probably whip out some release forms just to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed.)

As far as someone not wanting to be videoed - eh. I think it would be a case by case thing. Some people just aren't comfortable with it - I HATE being photographed/being on camera. Or if the trainer felt it would be distracting for a younger rider, because they'd be too conscious of being filmed. That's a valid concern also for some people.

I do think it's rude to just whip out the camera and film without asking - even if everyone is totally fine with it, it feels kind of like an invasion of privacy to me or something. I dunno.

JMurray
Feb. 12, 2011, 06:05 AM
Post a sign. No videotaping of lessons without permission from trainer.

It is not about how we feel, it is about how you feel about it.

Petstorejunkie
Feb. 12, 2011, 08:51 AM
If it were me having those feelings, I'd take a moment of introspection to look into why.
I uphold a philosophy while teaching that I never say anything in a lesson I wouldn't want the whole world to hear.

Reddfox
Feb. 12, 2011, 09:25 AM
I think that as part of the learning experience, videotaping should be allowed as it's a valuable learning tool. I do think that people should ask the trainer what the policy is on sharing these recordings - especially with sound. If sound is included, it's like giving viewers a lesson for free - depending on the level of instructor, this may or may not be ok.

I asked if I was able to record my lessons (because it's polite to do so) - and the only caveat is that if I share video, I have to eliminate other riders as much as possible. And, out of respect, if I post anything, I scrub sound from it.


When giving lessons - I encourage people to record so that we can go over them later - but that's something that I discuss with students and parents before they start taking lessons from me so that they know what my policy is.

Those are my 2 cents.

Debbie D
Feb. 12, 2011, 10:15 AM
Since 2003 I have taped every lesson with sound that my daughter has had and religiously she would watch it on her way home from the lesson (an 1.5 hour ride for us). Not only did it reinforce what she had learned that day but by watching the lesson she was able to see for herself where she went astray - "aha" moments where the lightbulb went off. This process tremendously helped her progression in future lessons. I have found it to be one of the most beneficial tools a rider can have and it has certainly helped to make my daughter the rider she is today. I would not use a trainer that did not allow videotaping.

mvp
Feb. 12, 2011, 10:29 AM
This and a discussion in a thread in the Eventing forum about a working student who was not hired because he would blog about his experience give me pause.

It's too bad horse training has gotten to the point that people need to think about a watching "public." With YouTube and the comments posted around COTH about those videos, I see why horse pros are being wary.

PetStoreJunkie has a good approach. But so much can look strange or bad when taken out of context. I think you need to be teaching for a long, long time before you can feel that *anyone* watching would "get it" and understand why the lesson went as it did.

Debbie D
Feb. 12, 2011, 10:50 AM
It's all about trust = reputable trainers + reputable students. I would never dream of posting any lesson on youtube or any other public format....

CosMonster
Feb. 12, 2011, 11:16 AM
I would think it was a little rude if someone taped a private lesson without asking me first, but I wouldn't really care that much.

A group lesson would be different though. I require the permission of everyone riding that day as some people may not be comfortable being filmed, and that will interfere with their comfort and ability to focus on the lesson. If I found out someone was secretly filming a ride in that situation I would be upset.

I would not be happy if someone posted a video online without asking me though. I have nothing to hide, and people are welcome to come watch me teach whenever they want. But mvp is right, a lot can be taken out of context and damage can be done to a reputation before the pro in question even has a chance to respond.

Poody
Feb. 12, 2011, 11:29 AM
I don't mind video taping for personal use. I don't think most lesson videos belong on utube. One of my friends posted a video of her horse in a training session with her trainer on it. Nothing "wrong" was going on but it wasn't the most flattering for either horse or trainer.. horse was learning a new dressage movement.. again nothing against her trainer but,meh.
When I saw it online I called her (owner) and told her to remove it. Why ? Pretty simple, why have bad video or even bad photos of your horse all over the internet. It's like bad advertising yourself. Keep that stuff private,imo.

Heard from the trainer later, she had no idea it was on utube and agreed with my thought process.

J-Lu
Feb. 12, 2011, 09:03 PM
Can I ask why you are uncomfortable with this?

Very many people video tape their lessons. I videotape my clinics and many clinics hire a professional videographer in case the participants want to be taped (some state that personal taping is not allowed but only the videographer can tape, and that's another story). It sounds like this dad was simply videotaping on his camera and didn't realize that he did anything to upset you. My video camera is via my digital camera.

I don't know of any professional who barrs videotaping - it is too useful of a tool. But I do know of professionals who ask that the videotape not be posted online or distributed. That's fair. You might want to casually thank the dad for videotaping because it can reinforce his daughter's lesson, but that you really require that he not distribute it or post in anywhere. I'm sure he'd understand.

J.



Those of you who coach and train...how do you feel about the lessons you teach being videotaped without your knowledge? Meaning...you are teaching, parents are watching and dad is videotaping the whole ride but you think all he is doing is taking pictures. Nothing I do or say is secret nor am I ashamed of it. But...I am uncomfortable being videotaped with sound without my prior knowledge. Just curious what others think about this...

Duramax
Feb. 12, 2011, 09:07 PM
I don't mind one bit- it helps the student digest the lesson if they actually take the time to go and watch it after. Now having to hear myself is another story... I hate that! :lol:

Bethe Mounce
Feb. 12, 2011, 09:10 PM
I have no secrets and nothing to hide nor would I teach differently if I knew ahead of time. What I don't like is it being videotaped without my prior knowledge. I have no issue with private lessons being videoed for personal use. There is a trainer being sued near me for negligence, the lawsuit has caused me to re-think how I teach, what I say and how I deliver the message to the kids. I hate the fact I have to be so wary and careful, but that is the current state of the horse business where I am. My point is...ask me first before videotaping...nothing more, nothing less.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Feb. 12, 2011, 10:54 PM
. I hate the fact I have to be so wary and careful, but that is the current state of the horse business where I am. My point is...ask me first before videotaping...nothing more, nothing less.

If that is your preference, you may want to consider posting signs at the arena that state this as I think times have evolved so much that digital media is as common and integrated into life as hay in the barn. I would venture to say that most people would be happy to comply, but not think of asking first.

As a student, it hasn't occurred to me to ask for permission -- I guess everywhere I go I see lessons being taped. I pay good money for my lessons, I want to be able to re-live them as much as possible to get the most out of them. I am a very "present" rider, but there are sometimes things that I feel I hear for the first time when I watch the video. And I've never had an instructor or clinician mention anything -- as a matter of fact, also being one who tapes friends' lessons, instructors would often say: "Did you get that?"

chisamba
Feb. 12, 2011, 11:05 PM
I charge extra for video lessons, if i provide the videographer. If the person videos themselves, no problem. Not sure why anyone would post a lesson on a public forum though. I suppose if i think about it, i would like to be asked before someone did that. Reason being that usually my students already know my philosophy and have had certain things explained, that might not be obvious in a taped lesson.

kdow
Feb. 12, 2011, 11:13 PM
I have no secrets and nothing to hide nor would I teach differently if I knew ahead of time. What I don't like is it being videotaped without my prior knowledge. I have no issue with private lessons being videoed for personal use. There is a trainer being sued near me for negligence, the lawsuit has caused me to re-think how I teach, what I say and how I deliver the message to the kids. I hate the fact I have to be so wary and careful, but that is the current state of the horse business where I am. My point is...ask me first before videotaping...nothing more, nothing less.

I don't think, for a professional, it's a BAD thing to want to be aware of when you're being videotaped - if for no other reason than it gives you an opportunity to make sure everyone is clear on what you consider acceptable use of the tape. (Is it okay to put it on Youtube, for example?)

With local folks it's less of an issue, with a BNT they also have potential loss of income to consider if someone tapes them and then distributes that freely online - maybe they were considering putting out a professionally produced DVD or something, and now they can't because too many people feel they can get the same information for free from stuff on Youtube.

Plus, for anyone - ANY media of you is, to some extent, an advertisement. It certainly influences how people see you and with editing programs being really trivially easy to use in many cases these days, you're not even 'safe' if something's on film, because it can be edited to give a very different impression of what you're like as a person or a trainer.

(For example, an extreme: A client routinely tapes lessons over the course of a year. The trainer is good, very occasionally yells if the client is about to do something seriously stupid or dangerous, but is otherwise good mannered and polite and generally presents information with the right blend of patience and persistence. For some reason, the client and the trainer have a falling out, and the client goes through and snips all of the bits of the trainer yelling and sticks them together, and then posts it online saying "this is what the lessons were like ALL THE TIME." Other people in the area see it, and just like that, some damage is done to the trainer's reputation. It's an extreme, yes, but given some of the threads here on COTH, it's quite easy to see something like that happening.)

I would not have a problem at all with a professional who had signs posted that said something along the lines of "taping or recording lessons is permitted with prior agreement from the trainer and anyone else using the arena at the time of the lesson."

Bethe Mounce
Feb. 12, 2011, 11:54 PM
Kdow said: (For example, an extreme: A client routinely tapes lessons over the course of a year. The trainer is good, very occasionally yells if the client is about to do something seriously stupid or dangerous, but is otherwise good mannered and polite and generally presents information with the right blend of patience and persistence. For some reason, the client and the trainer have a falling out, and the client goes through and snips all of the bits of the trainer yelling and sticks them together, and then posts it online saying "this is what the lessons were like ALL THE TIME." Other people in the area see it, and just like that, some damage is done to the trainer's reputation. It's an extreme, yes, but given some of the threads here on COTH, it's quite easy to see something like that happening.)

This is exactly the concern. Video can be altered so that the whole story is not being told. I truly have no issue with video for personal use, I had my own lessons taped but my coach always knew and he also knew they were not shared publicly. Once I submitted a portion of an old tape for a clinic, I called him first to ask his permission and muted the sound. As a pro myself, I would not want any other pro to be portrayed in a bad light when the whole story isn't being told. So, this lawsuit in my area has certainly caught my attention in a big way. As I said, I have absolutely nothing to hide, anyone is welcome to watch at any time, I encourage it. Videotaping, that can be altered, is another story completely.

dghunter
Feb. 13, 2011, 09:05 AM
My trainer actually loves when I tape my lessons because she thinks it's very helpful :yes: I don't really give her a heads up other than I'll show up and just sort of mention it in passing. I would never ride with someone who wouldn't let me video my lessons because it can be so helpful!

Bethe Mounce
Feb. 13, 2011, 10:33 AM
My trainer actually loves when I tape my lessons because she thinks it's very helpful :yes: I don't really give her a heads up other than I'll show up and just sort of mention it in passing. I would never ride with someone who wouldn't let me video my lessons because it can be so helpful!

Absolutely, video taping is extremely helpful. I have tons of tape with my own coach. They are for private review and not to be made public without his prior consent and/or knowledge. Bits and pieces of videotape spliced together can tell a completely different story than what actually happened.

nhwr
Feb. 13, 2011, 10:48 AM
I think there are 2 issues here.

1)How you would like things to be handled.
2)What is legal.


You have made a pretty clear and reasonable statement of your expectations.

It is my understanding that, in a public place, anyone can video anything they'd like without the permission of those involved and they own the tape. That means they can put it on youtube, sell it etc. If you are on private property, things might be different. But not necessarily. Remember the youtube video that went viral of the woman falling into a fountain in a mall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPW8xmI4w6U)? That was done without her permission. I think the Patriot Act has had some impact on video taping.

Maybe someone with legal expertise could comment further.

CounterCanterer
Feb. 13, 2011, 11:01 AM
I intend on taping lessons, I will ask my instructor first if she is ok with this (though she has said I should get a vid camera and tape some so I'm guessing it's good).
I want to see what she sees and I will also post on youtube as I also want my granny (who is in another part of the country) to be able to see me ride.

I have my youtube account at a very high privacy setting (you can only see the clip with the link or I believe I can have it so that I could give my password and account login info so gran could sign in... only sign'd in people can see)

CHT
Feb. 13, 2011, 11:57 AM
I think it is polite/proper to ask first, particularly if there are other people in the ring.

Why would I want to be asked first?
a) I would try to direct comments to the person being video'd to the direction of the camera so the comments are caught on video.
b) I would not make comments to other people in the ring (such as your horse looks a little off today) while on tape.
c) I would make sure the videographer did NOT post anything publicly that contained video of other people riding without their express consent. Not everyone has oodles of self confidence, and youtube/face book comments can be brutal!
d) I would try to not make comments that taken out of context could be misconstrued badly, such as inside jokes.

Suzier
Feb. 13, 2011, 11:57 AM
I think it's polite to ask first, but I'd also be extremely skeptical of anybody who didn't allow me to videotape my lesson for my private, personal use.

I can understand if trainers/clinicians don't want videos posted on public web sites without their permission though, since it might be construed as someone giving away for free what you could and do charge for. Personally, I'd get explicit written permission by email before I'd post a video of a lesson.

ise@ssl
Feb. 13, 2011, 01:30 PM
I don't see a problem if the video is of a person and their horse only. If it starts to include others - I think you need to ask them if they agree to it. As others have pointed out - photos and videos are showing up all over the internet (world) without people giving consent or even having knowledge of it. We've become an extremely RUDE society in that regard.

As far as an employee bloggin about their job - I definitely wouldn't tolerate that. A business is a private entity and it would be the same as revealing private information. I do feel sorry for the younger generations feeling that EVERYTHING is public - many of their postings will come back to haunt them in the future and they won't be able to do anything about it.

sjdressage
Feb. 13, 2011, 01:40 PM
I had a bad experience with this. I agree it is valuable to videotape. I had a student videotape me schooling their horse without me knowing it. After I realized it, I thought no big deal. But then she posted it on a forum without me knowing it.

The horse was a 3 year old off the track who would trot a hundred miles an hour with her head in the air for the student. So, I got on her and relaxed her, slowing her tempo and she went quietly round after a few minutes. My hands were low due to the circumstances and everyone on the internet had something to say that my hands were low, blah blah blah. I don't know how anyone would expect a green nervous horse to relax their topline with the riders hands up in the air. The whole thing was obnoxious.

kdow
Feb. 13, 2011, 03:38 PM
It is my understanding that, in a public place, anyone can video anything they'd like without the permission of those involved and they own the tape. That means they can put it on youtube, sell it etc. If you are on private property, things might be different. But not necessarily.

On private property things are different, but I'm not familiar enough with the laws to spell them out. But it's not the same as on public property, it's more complicated. (Someone filmed attending a large sporting event that was televised would be a different issue than someone filmed in their own home, for example.)

And of course when you start talking about commercial use of the video, it throws in more complications. It's not that simple, and I don't think the laws have really fully caught up with the idea of nearly everyone having a camera or video camera on their person at all times.

I probably would also not be happy if a trainer told me point blank that I could never video any of our sessions. It is a valuable learning tool. That said, I think a trainer who makes clear statements about situations in which they're comfortable being filmed and the accepted use of said footage is just keeping up with the times and being aware of the possible damage video can do if it's edited or misrepresented.

(Not to mention taking into consideration the feelings of other people who might be using the ring at the same time as the lesson in question. I would not be happy boarding at a facility where any time I went into the arena I knew I was likely to be videoed by someone observing a lesson and possibly end up somewhere like in a thread on COTH so everyone could critique my poor re-rider self. Regardless of the legality of the situation, a good BO or BM needs to be aware of the perception of the practice by other boarders, since it could very well cost them money.)

JackSprats Mom
Feb. 13, 2011, 05:49 PM
I think you would be well within your rights to post a notice that says videoing taping is allowed but cannot be used for other means then the student viewing without written permission of the trainer.

sid
Feb. 13, 2011, 06:02 PM
Same with photos.

I've had numerous former barn help (stall muckers/feeders) hang out their shingles as "trainers" or barn managers --even stallion handlers (not!) -- on the internet using pictures of my horses and facility.

I even had a temporary trainer who was preparing one of my young stallions for the 100DT, use a copyrighted photo by Susan Sexton on Facebook for his profile picture. I've since learned he has a blow up photo of that in his facility, saying that he at one time owned the horse. Good Lord.

It's not that I want photo credits, but I do resent anyone from using video or photos taken at a private facility for self-marketing or in the case of a bad photo or video, using it discrediting another horse professional.

Life was so much easier without the internet...:lol::lol::lol:

AllWeatherGal
Feb. 14, 2011, 07:29 AM
As nearly everyone has said, videos of lessons are excellent training tools.

And IMO, yes, everyone being taped should be made aware and if it's your property, permission should be secured.

You could just make it a habit to ask the rider, or observing parents, if they plan to video the lesson. If they get defensive, it's a wonderful opportunity to explain that you can help them make the most of it if you know.

kdow
Feb. 14, 2011, 07:40 AM
You could just make it a habit to ask the rider, or observing parents, if they plan to video the lesson. If they get defensive, it's a wonderful opportunity to explain that you can help them make the most of it if you know.

These days I would probably honestly just make it part of the initial agreement - you have to fill out paperwork and sign a release when you ride, so have an additional page about photos and videos and your policies on them, and there you go. (Though I'd also post up clear and concise signs just to remind people. "Please remember not to video the arena unless you have permission from everyone you'll be taping." Or something to that effect.)

Another option would be for the BO/BM to just decide to make video part of the 'product' that they're selling, and have some kind of camera system installed and routinely record lessons and make copies available for students. You'd probably still get some people wanting to video 'for Grandma' or whatever, but if you routinely recorded lessons then if anything did come up where someone edited or otherwise was misrepresenting footage, you'd have your originals to counter the accusations. Biggest issue there would be storage if you wanted to archive the footage, but even that's getting pretty cheap now.

(Be a little more complicated if you wanted to use more than one camera to get different angles, since then you'd need to keep them matched up and edit the appropriate footage together if you were going to give a copy to a student, but it's all pretty doable with today's technology and relatively inexpensive software.)

SunsAfire
Feb. 14, 2011, 12:04 PM
In my opinion, I believe the person paying for the lesson has the right to video tape it. But if it's my paying hour it's my paying hour. I video tape all the clinics I'm in and study them like mad. It helps a lot!

Other people video taping for free? Not so much.

CosMonster
Feb. 14, 2011, 07:36 PM
SunsAfire, I'm just curious, do you feel the same way about group lessons? As in, anyone who is riding in a lesson (even if some of the time is devoted to other riders) has a right to tape it? Or is that only about private lessons? What about if it is a private lesson but other boarders are riding in the ring?

I'm not trying to attack, just curious. It is kind of a complex issue with lots of different viewpoints, so I'm finding this discussion very interesting.

I do think clinics are a bit different too as they are sort of put out there for public consumption more than a private or small group lesson at a private barn is. I've only given a few clinics but I definitely am a bit more conscious of the public view then, and probably wouldn't mind if they were posted online (as far as I know none of mine have been). But I also get to screen the riders and teach with the audience in mind as much as the student, so...

katarine
Feb. 14, 2011, 08:12 PM
I would want to be asked, just so I know. I can be a colorful speaker and sometimes if a student gets stargazey or quits on me I may say something sharp/funny to get them laughing but also to get them back to me. I tailor my funny to meet my student: nothing nasty, of course, but occasionally there's a line about a monkey on a football :) I would want to know there's a camera on my back, in advance, just so's I know.

I think it's just a courtesy to ask, really.

ridealot
Feb. 15, 2011, 01:12 PM
I would ask the instructor and rider first before videotapping. I think that is the correct thing to do. I will say this in the state of Virginia taking a video of a child on horseback under the age of 18 without parental concent is illegal. I would check first.

Isabeau Z Solace
Feb. 15, 2011, 02:04 PM
I think it's just a courtesy to ask, really.


Yeah, well I'm sure every aging Hollywood star in a string bikini snapped in a decidedly unglamorous "ooh, look who's gained 20 pounds ..." photo would have preferred to be asked also. But here's the new deal. Cameras are everywhere.

We are all being recorded and photographed a lot more often than we probably want to think about. If horse sports want to become more 'popular' then, we need to start figuring out how to deal with the public criticism (read: virtual crucification or public vivisection) that is just the daily grind in other sports.

Have you watched a football or baseball commentary show lately ? Whom in the horse world can you imagine would be able to withstand such withering "critique." Overall, we need to start sucking it up and figuring it out. One way or another, we are going to have our 'dirty laundry' aired in public. If we want to see our venerable horse 'sports' move into the future (as opposed to withering away) we need to not shy away from the cameras (or other media) get busy using them to our benefit.

I am thinking of the WS blogger mentioned on another thread who got spun when the BNT learned what the plan was. Perhaps the BNT missed a big opportunity to 'grab the bull by the horns' and get with the new program. The first BNT to have a really successful "day in the life of the barn" blog associated with their business could be in a position to really get recognition and $$$$:D

As the eventers are so fond of saying, "kick on."

Best policy for the 21st century... behave as if every moment is being recorded and could be broadcast on the 5 o'clock news. In this day and age, it very well could be....

Bethe Mounce
Feb. 15, 2011, 09:28 PM
Ya know Isabeaux...ya got a point! I concur with your words, hadn't looked at it that way....

kdow
Feb. 15, 2011, 10:52 PM
Best policy for the 21st century... behave as if every moment is being recorded and could be broadcast on the 5 o'clock news. In this day and age, it very well could be....

As someone who might be going around taking film/video of people for a career, this is a wise action on the part of individuals, but as far as I'm concerned, the people actually doing the filming still have a responsibility (if only due to manners) to confirm with the people they are filming that it's okay to do so.

(And if you take film with the intent of using it commercially and don't notify and obtain proper permissions from the participants, then I think you have the professional ethics of a slug.) (Not, I'm sure, that someone who would do such a thing cares, but at least it makes me feel better to say. :) )

katarine
Feb. 20, 2011, 10:50 PM
Ian Miller needs more name recognition?

Really?

Where? Mars?

If I've entered into a relationship with a person=professional or personal- I fully believe it is reasonable to be ASKED by that person if it's ok to record our interactions. I'm a trainer, not a rock star getting stalked by paparazzi. Hell's bells I'll likely give you BETTER instruction, narrate for the videographer's benefit to point out pros and cons, etc so it's more worth your while to video us. You will get different instruction, geared to support the use of the damn camera in the first place.

Since when does holding a camera make a person right? Do we all collectively think what happens behind every single closed door is some tiara-balancing pearl clutching teeth on edge documentary-worthy moment?

Really?

SillyHorse
Feb. 21, 2011, 08:36 AM
Ian Miller needs more name recognition?

Really?

Where? Mars?

If I've entered into a relationship with a person=professional or personal- I fully believe it is reasonable to be ASKED by that person if it's ok to record our interactions. I'm a trainer, not a rock star getting stalked by paparazzi. Hell's bells I'll likely give you BETTER instruction, narrate for the videographer's benefit to point out pros and cons, etc so it's more worth your while to video us. You will get different instruction, geared to support the use of the damn camera in the first place.

Since when does holding a camera make a person right? Do we all collectively think what happens behind every single closed door is some tiara-balancing pearl clutching teeth on edge documentary-worthy moment?

Really?
Agree with katarine. Are we really so willing to be recorded without our permission? I'm not. Does taking a video recorder somewhere give one the right to record anyone and everyone there? I believe it does not.

In the original situation, common courtesy would dictate that premission be obtained before filming. But common courtesy has become something of an oxymoron, as it's hardly common any more.

CosMonster
Feb. 21, 2011, 10:38 AM
I can see what Isabeau is saying, but I think there are some noticeable differences between the horse industry and other sports. I think taping your average riding instructor with their average clients would be more akin to taping the coach of the local work softball team than anything that would be broadcast on TV. I don't think the analogy holds up.

Besides, most riding lessons are done on private property, where the laws and expectation of privacy are different. I've been photographed and filmed while trail riding by people I didn't know and it didn't bother me. I'm sure it's happened while I was showing, too, even though I have never noticed it, and again, it wouldn't have bothered me. If they had been on my own property and filming without permission, however, I would have been furious. It's a different context.

nhwr
Feb. 21, 2011, 10:42 AM
There has been much discussion of what is polite and proper. I agree with most of it. But I think that misses the essential question; what is legal?

For the most part, videotaping without someone's knowledge or permission seems to be legal when you are out and about. The person behind the camera owns the video material and may do with it as they wish, including posting it on youtube or a website within certain limitations.

You can post signs, ask people not to video you without your permission whatever .... but people are under no legal obligation to respect your wishes.

PineTreeFarm
Feb. 21, 2011, 11:04 AM
I know you are mostly discussing video issues during lessons but keep in mind that if you are at a competition signing the entry blank means you agree to the following:

"I also agree that as a condition of and in consideration of acceptance of entry, the Federation and/or the Competition may use or assign photographs, videos, audios, cable - casts, broadcasts, internet, film, new media or other likenesses of me and my horse taken during the course of the competition for the promotion, coverage or benefit of the competition, sport, or the Federation. Those likenesses shall not be used to advertise a product and they may not be used in such a way as to jeopardize amateur status. I hereby expressly and irrevocably waive and release any rights in connection with such use, including any claim to compensation, invasion of privacy, right of publicity, or to misappropriation."

Bethe Mounce
Feb. 21, 2011, 11:17 AM
I know you are mostly discussing video issues during lessons but keep in mind that if you are at a competition signing the entry blank means you agree to the following:

"I also agree that as a condition of and in consideration of acceptance of entry, the Federation and/or the Competition may use or assign photographs, videos, audios, cable - casts, broadcasts, internet, film, new media or other likenesses of me and my horse taken during the course of the competition for the promotion, coverage or benefit of the competition, sport, or the Federation. Those likenesses shall not be used to advertise a product and they may not be used in such a way as to jeopardize amateur status. I hereby expressly and irrevocably waive and release any rights in connection with such use, including any claim to compensation, invasion of privacy, right of publicity, or to misappropriation."

Good point and wise to bring up. All avenues regarding video taping are worth mentioning. Every situation is different. I was the original poster, I just would like to have my permission asked prior to taping. I have yet to develop something within the paperwork first time students or their parents fill out, but I am working on it. Most people are very understanding about my request, if I make it verbally.........no one has "challenged" me yet! LOL!

SillyHorse
Feb. 21, 2011, 12:44 PM
There has been much discussion of what is polite and proper. I agree with most of it. But I think that misses the essential question; what is legal?

For the most part, videotaping without someone's knowledge or permission seems to be legal when you are out and about. The person behind the camera owns the video material and may do with it as they wish, including posting it on youtube or a website within certain limitations.
Yes, when you are "out and about." But when you're on your own property, you have a say in what goes on. A simple example: it is legal to ride without a helmet; however, a farm owner can require that anyone mounted must wear a helmet. In fact, even out and about legal doesn't always mean allowed. Using the helmet analogy again, even though it is legal to ride without a helmet, under most circumstances people must now wear helmets at dressage shows.

atr
Feb. 21, 2011, 01:49 PM
My first reply was predicated on the lesson being video-d for my (the rider) own private use.

The thought of someone posting a lesson on youtube never even crossed my mind. That would, to me, obviously be entirely unacceptable without all involved's permission.

To say nothing of the fact that I'm not ready to inflict that kind of public humiliation on myself!

mademoiselle
Feb. 22, 2011, 08:04 AM
I have been caught by surprise 2 times with people using videos without asking me.

First time, I went to try a horse that was supposed to be broke, but I later found out that he had only been going w/t on a longeline. Well, they never told me and I rode the horse w/t/c around the ring. The sellers grabbed a camera (they said they wanted pictures).
They used still pictures and videos to market the horse and sold the horse out of state site unseen based on the video of me riding the horse:eek:. All that without asking me:no:.

The other one is, my friend took a video of me riding her horse at a show and at a clinic and posted the videos on Youtube and on a BB without me knowing. I found out later and realized that I had been crucified :winkgrin:. Oh well ... Knowing that I scored a 69+ in that test under a tough S Judge, I didn't worry too much about 'strangers opinion'.

I don't really care about videos. Of course, there are days that I would not want videos to be taken, but most of those I'm by myself anyway :winkgrin:.

I know some trainers that have very strict policies of 'No videotaping at anytime ever'. It is posted by the arena.

Napoles
Feb. 22, 2011, 09:20 AM
Ugh, why has everything got so litigious and why must everything be straight to Facebook or Youtube or wherever?? Hate the way the modern world is going sometimes.
I've been lucky enough to have had dressage lessons at home in Ireland and in Holland and Belgium with very well known, top trainers and we videoed all of these. None of the trainers had an issue, but I guess that would have been about 6 yrs ago now, so possibly before the Youtube phenomenon..

I watched and rewatched those videos religiously and used them to prepare for my next lesson and to reinforce what I had learned. It's a shame to think that trainers now have to think much further down the line as to what might happen if a piece of that video was taken out of context and posted on a public website. :(