Please help me figure out what's wrong with my boy!

[Andie235]

3 weeks ago my horse started showing symptoms of laminitis. We took xrays and yes, there was rotation. He was doing ok for about 2.5 wks (cause not from grain/carb overload, illness, or corticosteriod over-use...just 'other') and then yesterday, he couldn't walk.
We went to take him out of his stall and he just kind of stumbled behind, esp his LH, and leaned against the wall. Now, when he's in his stall, he seems normal. But if you ask him to walk, he can't and he's obviously in pain.
When he tries to walk it almost lookslike he had a stroke! But I don't think that's it since he's so normal when standing (normal excess personality, munching happily on hay)
I am just so scared and I don't know what will happen.
I've heard Cushings (waiting on blood test results), EPM, lyme...I don't know what it is.
We have a vet coming in tommorrow (he was out yesterday too). ANyone have any ideas?
I'm sorry for the discombobulated post, but I'm overwhelmed.
Also- his eyes have been runny- maybe that has nothing to do with it though.
Please- I welcome any thoughts at all! This horse has been my best friend for the last 5 years and yesterday was the first time I ever thought this 1200 lb animal was weaker than I. I owe him so much, I just can't stop until I've triend everything in my power and then a few dollars and hours beyond that.

[Andie235]

3 weeks ago my horse started showing symptoms of laminitis. We took xrays and yes, there was rotation. He was doing ok for about 2.5 wks (cause not from grain/carb overload, illness, or corticosteriod over-use...just 'other') and then yesterday, he couldn't walk.
We went to take him out of his stall and he just kind of stumbled behind, esp his LH, and leaned against the wall. Now, when he's in his stall, he seems normal. But if you ask him to walk, he can't and he's obviously in pain.
When he tries to walk it almost lookslike he had a stroke! But I don't think that's it since he's so normal when standing (normal excess personality, munching happily on hay)
I am just so scared and I don't know what will happen.
I've heard Cushings (waiting on blood test results), EPM, lyme...I don't know what it is.
We have a vet coming in tommorrow (he was out yesterday too). ANyone have any ideas?
I'm sorry for the discombobulated post, but I'm overwhelmed.
Also- his eyes have been runny- maybe that has nothing to do with it though.
Please- I welcome any thoughts at all! This horse has been my best friend for the last 5 years and yesterday was the first time I ever thought this 1200 lb animal was weaker than I. I owe him so much, I just can't stop until I've triend everything in my power and then a few dollars and hours beyond that.

[JB]

The timing could mean a wicked abcess is brewing, perhaps.

[fergie]

Are you up to date on vaccinations? How about bottulism? What are his temp., pulse, and respiration? Are his gums slimy or tacky? Does he have digital pulses up front or behind? (Do you know how to check for this?) What temp. are his feet? Sound like he could use 10 cc's of Banamine. Could you get a different vet out tonight? Bed him down deeply tonight. EPM will make them seem drunk. Does he seem drunk to you? Is he worse trying to back up or go forward? What about turning? You know that the farrier can help you with the rotation by how he's shod, right?

[Andie235]

Totally up to date on vaccines. Normal temp/resp/hr. Digital pulses up front (in keeping with laminitis). He's already bedded extra deep. He seems very normal when standing in his stall, but when you ask him to walk you literally have to aqhul him. HAven't tried to backup- don't think he could. Turning very difficult. It's all in keeping with laminitis except for the staggering behind, but that might be compinsation. Have a great farrier all over his feet.

[fergie]

Sounds like you are on top of things. What about the Banamine?

[Flying Hearts]

When my mare had west nile she had weird neurological symptoms (staggering, etc - basically looked like EPM) - no laminitis but I imagine anything that causes a horse to be sick can cause laminitis as a secondary problem.

[Lookout]

Fergie, you might want to stop prescribing medications over the internet.

[Tree]

What does your vet say? What does your farrier say? Since they have seen this horse, know he has rotation and are dealing with it, why are you asking questions like this here?

If it were my horse, it would not be in a stall with deep bedding. If it had shoes on, they'd be off and I'd be trimming the hooves to allow the coffin bones to return to ground parallel thus reducing the stresses to the damaged toe laminae. If heel pain were an issue I'd also be looking carefully at what was causing it and trim accordingly.

However, it's not my horse and you say your farrier is all over this and that your vet must be too, keep them updated on what's going on since they're in on this case.

Tree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Totally up to date on vaccines. Normal temp/resp/hr. Digital pulses up front (in keeping with laminitis). He's already bedded extra deep. He seems very normal when standing in his stall, but when you ask him to walk you literally have to aqhul him. HAven't tried to backup- don't think he could. Turning very difficult. It's all in keeping with laminitis except for the staggering behind, but that might be compinsation. Have a great farrier all over his feet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lookout]

When did get all those vaccines? How much corticosteroids did he actually get?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Totally up to date on vaccines. Normal temp/resp/hr. Digital pulses up front (in keeping with laminitis). He's already bedded extra deep. He seems very normal when standing in his stall, but when you ask him to walk you literally have to aqhul him. HAven't tried to backup- don't think he could. Turning very difficult. It's all in keeping with laminitis except for the staggering behind, but that might be compinsation. Have a great farrier all over his feet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fergie]

Lookout,
Everybody should have Banamine in their horsey medicine cabinet.... doesn't mean they have to use it. Anyway, Banamine is the best thing for a foundering horse and other inflammatory conditions and colic, etc.. This girl was freaking out with worry... I would want all the information I could get in her shoes.

[fergie]

Andi235,
Just wondering how your horse is today? What else did you find out? I know what that feels like when you can see them in pain and really can't help them. Hang in there.

[JB]

Actually, some recent research has shown that bute is very very useful in the early, acute stages of laminitis, but beyond that (a couple of days, assuming the source is found and removed) it is discouraged.

[fergie]

Haven't heard that about Bute, but know Banamine works on the endotoxins associated with laminitis. We used Banamine at New Bolton, but I know medicine changes all the time.

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Lookout,
Everybody should have Banamine in their horsey medicine cabinet.... doesn't mean they have to use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Banamine is prescribed by a licensed veterinarian, right? I'm thinking back to when I was given a syringe and specific instructions during the time I had an old pony that was colicking regularly. My vet gave me the dose to administer as needed but it was only one dose, not an entire bottle. I believe my vet trusted me to use it wisely and follow their instructions closely or would not have allowed me to have it.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Anyway, Banamine is the best thing for a foundering horse and other inflammatory conditions and colic, etc.. This girl was freaking out with worry... I would want all the information I could get in her shoes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that would depend on your point of view. The banamine, in my case, was to help a pony through another colic episode, not founder. Founder is beyond anti-inflammatories because the laminae have failed and the hoof capsule/bone connection has been lost. Maybe, just MAYBE banamine would help a horse through a mild bout of laminitis (inflammation of the laminae) but not founder.

People can freak but keeping a cool head and acting responsibly works best vs grabbing for straws. Her concerns would be best dealt with by contacting the professionals currently working with her. We're not doctors in here, are we? We need to keep our heads too, right?

Tree

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Lookout,
Everybody should have Banamine in their horsey medicine cabinet.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And administer it when their vet advises them to do so. This is not the first or only time you've cavalierly suggested over the internet that people medicate their horses, sometimes not even for medically warranted reasons.

[fergie]

Yeah, well my vet wants me to have a bottle of Banamine, a BIG bottle of SMZ's, some bute (ooh - I actually have injectible bute too - that has to go IV too, and you can't get it outside the vein either...) and whatever else. That way I don't need to have her come out at all sometimes. But then again, I've had horses for 20 years, and she knows I know how to give a shot. All of my friends have this stuff too, as do the barns where they stable their horses. And wait, yes, they have ACE too, and maybe some Rompun or Dermosedan. Notice we're not talking about tranquilizers, but an antiinflammatory/painkiller that's good to have on hand for a colic. Some peole can't afford to have the vet out every other day, and as in this girl's case, can't always get them out. Geez, I just empathized with her.

And FYI - Banamine is EXACTLY what we gave them at New Bolton for founder, not straws, including the mare we kept in the pool til she had her foal so her feet wouldn't fall off...

Just giving the same advice I give my friends when they call me looking for solutions or emergency help. Just the same info. I ask my more experienced horse friend. Lighten up.

[fergie]

Lookout,
Just repeating what's common knowledge to real horsepeople, just helping those who are learning - that's how I learned. Don't care if this bothers you...

[fergie]

Andi235,
Sorry about this silliness... Just wondering how your horse is and what the vet found. Were you able to get the vet out or are you still on your own. Maybe you have a horsey friend who can come over and help you or just keep company? I hope everything works out O.K.. Did you get any sleep last night. I was thinking about you...

[Tree]

Hmmmm, I am not so impressed by your abilities to administer anti-inflammatories as I am concerned that your barn would have that many colics requiring a regular supply of these drugs.

Tree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Yeah, well my vet wants me to have a bottle of Banamine, a BIG bottle of SMZ's, some bute (ooh - I actually have injectible bute too - that has to go IV too, and you can't get it outside the vein either...) and whatever else. That way I don't need to have her come out at all sometimes. But then again, I've had horses for 20 years, and she knows I know how to give a shot. All of my friends have this stuff too, as do the barns where they stable their horses. And wait, yes, they have ACE too, and maybe some Rompun or Dermosedan. Notice we're not talking about tranquilizers, but an antiinflammatory/painkiller that's good to have on hand for a colic. Some peole can't afford to have the vet out every other day, and as in this girl's case, can't always get them out. Geez, I just empathized with her.

And FYI - Banamine is EXACTLY what we gave them at New Bolton for founder, not straws, including the mare we kept in the pool til she had her foal so her feet wouldn't fall off...

Just giving the same advice I give my friends when they call me looking for solutions or emergency help. Just the same info. I ask my more experienced horse friend. Lighten up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fergie]

Tree,
You're not in a big barn, are you? You keep your horses at home or self care somewhere, don't you? You would only make that comment and some of the other comments if you have not boarded in a big competition barn. O.K., that makes sense now.

[fergie]

P.S. My gelding does get gassy when the weather and the barometric pressure change, sometimes. 10 cc's of Banamine does the trick, no vet bill, no worries for the barn manager. Horse is fine when it wears off the pressure has equalized. The only reason I have this stuff and know this stuff is because I've taken care of, worked with, owned lots of horses in that 20 years... If you're around them enough you get exposed to every kind of problem.... which it were different.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Yeah, well my vet wants me to have a bottle of Banamine, a BIG bottle of SMZ's, some bute (ooh - I actually have injectible bute too - that has to go IV too, and you can't get it outside the vein either...) Lighten up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's between your vet and you isn't it, and doesn't entitle you to prescribe medications to other horse owners over the internet. Especially for non-medical reasons like, getting feet to grow faster.

[Lookout]

Keep congratulating yourself on the high levels of stress you subject your horses to causing you to have lots of experience with medications. "Real horsepeople" know how to prevent problems.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Tree,
You're not in a big barn, are you? You keep your horses at home or self care somewhere, don't you? You would only make that comment and some of the other comments if you have not boarded in a big competition barn. O.K., that makes sense now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fergie]

What? Are you for real? prescribing medications? O.K., whatever.

[tbluv]

I know a horse who died from impaction colic because his owner kept medicating him with banamine instead of being vigilant about his problem. It's great to have banamine around however it should never be administered without a heads up first to the vet. Generally speaking, banamine is used as pain relief/anti inflammatory on foundering horses.

I am kinda thinking in the case of the OP the symptoms are probably related to the laminitis. The laying up against a wall the stumbling and inability to walk are pretty common in horses whose feet hurt like the dickens. Runny eyes are VERY common in horses that aren't feeling well.

What did your vet prescribe as a course of treatment for his laminitis?

[fergie]

tbluv,
I know what you are saying. If one shot doesn't work the vet does get called... I spend my last penny on my horses, actually. I think it related to the laminitis too. Hope she can help him....

Lookout,
I remember you - the hoof trim, hoof formula, I don't want to hear another angle, let's make the saddlebred owner feel horrible queen. Koo-koo koo-koo koo-koo.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Tree,
You're not in a big barn, are you? You keep your horses at home or self care somewhere, don't you? You would only make that comment and some of the other comments if you have not boarded in a big competition barn. O.K., that makes sense now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to point out something - I boarded at a barn for 15 years, and rode there for 30, with no less than 16 horses there at any given time, and for the first 20 of those 30 years there were more like 30 horses at any given time. There were rarely colics.

So, it is not a fair statement to say that someone doesn't see a lot of colics because they must never have been at a big barn.

However, maybe your definition of "big" is 100+ horses.

[fergie]

Good for you, JB, you've been lucky. I am not going to get into quality of care issues and colic - I can see you are headed there. I remember you, you didn't like me on the hoof growth post either. That's right. You were another hoof trim formula, I know everything about feet based on the research I read, person. I doubt we'd agree on much.

Really just waiting to see how the horse is doing.

[JackSprats Mom]

Enough squabbling folks!

What poeple do or do not have in their medicine cabinets at barns is no one elses concern. My barn has about 60-80 horses VERY rarely any colics but generally has Ace, SMZ's, Bute etc etc on hand as several of the horse compete seriously and so its a 'just in case' thing.

As for what poeple put on this board I would hope to God they use common sense before using ANYONE's advice on this board regardless of their number of years in horses or whether they claim they are a vet or whatever. If you're unsure call a vet, at least ask.

[fergie]

It's stupid, isn't it, all this squabbling? That's the thing about advice, you can take it or leave it. I just assume people will take the things they like from my advice and disregard the rest. That's what I do.... Everyone's got a brain and opinions, right? I also double and triple check everything - from qualified experts. Oh well, just trying to help someone who was very worried about her horse...

[Truckdobe]

Since this topic seems to be straying...

Some of what the OP is doing is exactly what my vet recommended that I do before the situation progressed to the point that he gave up b/c none of it worked. Originally it was stall rest in deep bedding and no tight turns (we'll get to the meds later).

First, if you put a Percheron in any size stall, how do you avoid the dreaded tight turns?? Not to mention inhibitting movement does the same to circulation which in turn inhibits healing. Movement, in spite of discomfort, is better for healing. Since the horse is in pain, they will only move at their own pace anyway (particularly if you don't give them pain killers, pain has a purpose).

Second, deep bedding, while there is some benefit (possibly) to frog support (at least as far as comfort), it also allows a horse to "toe point" more, stressing the laminae more b/c their toes can sink into the bedding. They may even prefer it, mine did; but given the choice, I'd live on ice cream and we all know that's not good for us. I had to lock the gate to keep her from the sand pile (used to be round pen).

Diet... Take a new mom off all food except fescue hay and see how fast she becomes emaciated. It was a stupid idea and I (somewhat ashamed to admit it) followed his directions. I wound up with a foundered rack of bones, no improvement. We are currently having more trouble getting her weight healthy than the feet that started all of this. If horses (living beings) are not given enough food they must make energy and they get it from their muscles, again not good for the organs or the horse.

Medications... old habits do die hard, I have a fridge full of horse/dog/cat... meds. Ace, Banamine, Bute... NONE of which I'm likey to use in the future. My girl went through a month on Ace (6x per day), Bute (2x per day), Banamine (4x per day), Pentoxyfylline (3x per day) & multiple antibiotics for the original infection. Add in tubing with DMSO, I almost forgot that one. With the exception of the antibiotics, when she finally got SICKER from all of the drugs and had to stop cold turkey, NONE of them made a difference beside making her SICK on top of emaciated and foundered. Originally the vet said we would be dropping back dosage, but then decided to keep her on all of that stuff. I'm now VERY sorry I ever put her through that, but I didn't really understand the INTERNAL repercussions.

All of those drugs are terrible on the organs, add in the reduced circulation due to stall rest and the system must be over-loaded. In my case, when her system started "flushing" all of that out, her hair fell out, her eyes ran; it was awful to watch and know that I had a hand in causing it. She hasn't had a drug in her system since July and has been recovering (slowly) ever since. Her coat is back and better than ever, she's perky, happy and although still hobbling a little, she's getting around better every day. After all of my drug research, she (and all of my others) will be getting wormed after fecals ONLY. We're going drug free around here.

Somewhere down the road I may have a NEED for a drug, but it will be CAREFULLY looked into before I administer anything with or without the vets advice.


ALL I wanted to do when this crap happened was save my beautiful mare. She's had such a crappy life, finally landed a good forever home then this happened. I was willing to do ANYTHING and spare no expense. I'm just really lucky and so is she, that I didn't blindly follow the vet and farrier, with an open checkbook, for long, according to them she should have been dead 3 months ago (more than 1 vet). IMO, I spent a LOT of money making her worse. Glad to be spending it making her better now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[fergie]

Truckdobe,
Wow, what an ordeal. I think you always have to go with your gut feeling, in life, you know? I'm glad your mare is O.K.. You should feel good about the decisions you made for her. I think I want to come back in my next life as one of your horses. Thanks for the info. - very interesting.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Lookout,
I remember you - </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I see you have a memory like a steel trap.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Koo-koo koo-koo koo-koo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And a brilliant way with an argument to go along with it.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Good for you, JB, you've been lucky. I am not going to get into quality of care issues and colic - I can see you are headed there.

So now you are psychic? C'mon, now really, I never even alluded to quality of care vs colic, I merely pointed out that one cannot assume something such as you assumed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You were another hoof trim formula, I know everything about feet based on the research I read, person. I doubt we'd agree on much.

You obviously don't remember very well - I have never pointed to any formula as I don't use any formula, other than striving to have most of the weightbearing behind the center of the foot
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I sincerely apologize to the OP for straying this topic, but there are times when statements are made based on incorrect assumptions that I cannot just let them go. Carry on.

[Gayla]

I have seen a horse with an abcess that could not even walk. It was pitiful. If your horse is having an episode of laminitis he could have developed abcesses secondary to the laminitis.

[Truckdobe]

Abcesses commonly follow founder, it is the body's way of getting the dead tissue that is too large for it to absorb out of the hoof.

In my case the abcessing was AWFUL for 2 months, it's getting better now. She didn't start with abscesses until 7 wks after the initial laminitis, then was down most of 2 months from multiples. Now we are still getting one here and there, but not nearly as severe.

It is my understanding that the hoof "walls off" the dead tissue, so antibiotics don't work, keeping the hoof soaked and softer to allow exit does.

[tbluv]

post laminitis abcesses are HELL =*(

If the horse is on special shoeing, perhaps check with farrier...sometimes changes here and there need to be made to the shoe to keep the foot comfortable.

[Andie235]

Sorry I've been MIA- things have been busy at the barn...or at least time consuming.
I wanted to thank everyone for their advice- and that' what it is- advice. This site serves as an excellent sounding board. We all share our experiences in hopes that we can help our fellow horse people. And I think everyone here knows not to take anything said here as law, but rather as friendly suggestions- and I welcome and am thankful for them all!

That being said, an update on Reilly.
One Sat. AM, he wasn't doing too hot. He wouldn't move in his stall and he had developed heat and digital pulses in his hind legs. This is most likely due to compensation. We called our vet and he said to give him 5cc of Ketofin 3x that day, ice all 4 feet and he sent out one of his collegues to administer a jug of DMSO.

So we iced and iced until 8 pm.

He seemed better this AM- brighter, moving around in his stall. We kept him on the same regimen and the vet gave another DMSO treatment (the smell! talk about adding insult to injury!). My primary vet will come out to look at him tomorrow and the farrier on Tues.

As of now his daily meds/treament consists of:
5cc Ketofin 3xday (only the last 2 days)
Surpass 2xday on cornary band of all 4 feet
Phentoxifylline 10cc 3xday
Gastrogard 1/2 tube a day for 4 days
and DMSO

We will see how he looks tomorrow to decide if we want to do another DMSO treatment.
I agree about using too much meds. But when we tried to take him off everyhting he crashed (Thurs). PS- he's alergic to Bute, so that was never an option.

We're still waiting on Cushing's results and the consult from the equine podiatrist on his xrays. It's very hard to sit around and wait. I've kind of exausted myself at this point, but I'm having a better night than the last few, at least (amazing- the healing properties of hot chocolate!) I really do appreciate all of your help and wishes- it's so good to know that others have made it through this type of thing!

[gdolapp]

Just an FYI for anyone who has problems
giving their horses shots for one reason
or another Banamine is made in an oral paste
just like Bute. Ask your vet about it.
I have both on hand to use if my horses
need it. Just thought I would let ya all know

[El Tovar]

HAHA this is hilarious, Fergie!

I SO know what you mean, I worked for vets for 10 years, I have managed 65 hunter jumper show horses, and YES I had: Dormosedan, Rompun, Banamine, Ketofen, Injectable Bute, Dex, LRS, and other drugs and yep, you use it wisely with your best judgment, you have a very good working relationship with your vet, and yep, you even call them for advice! With that many competition horses and especially wiht a vet 30plus mins away, you cannot afford not to have a well stocked first aid kit and know exactly how to use it all!!! People that have not been in this boat just would NOT understand the weight of this. The typical horse owner thinks its overkill, however vet techs and the like should have these things and the know how that goes with it.

GOOD FOR YOU FERGIE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif !

[fergie]

El Tovar,
Thank you. Nice to know someone who's had similar experiences and that I'm not a maniac. I also have a great working relationship with my vets, have run my own boarding stable, taken care of race horses, top event horses - (about 50 at once), worked at New Bolton, worked for a vet out on calls, etc.. It's different when you are the "in charge" person, huh? I've also done a lot of layups - you know, sick horses that are home from the horsie hospital, but still need extra TLC. Do you know that I have even picked bagfuls of grass for the ones who couldn't make it out to get any? Tunnel vision I guess.

Andi235,
Glad to hear you're on the case. Sounds like you've got a plan. Sorry for all the nonsense on your post my suggestions made - I was only trying to help.... Good luck! P.S. Doesn't that internal DMSO reek? It takes a while to go away too. I always felt like it followed me home when I came home from New Bolton!

[KateB]

To the original poster:
Where in the country are you? If you want to PM me with that information to keep it private go ahead. The reason I'm, asking is I can give you the number for a vet that's considered one of the world's foremost experts on laminitis and if you're near enough to him it may be worthwhile to ask him to take a look at your horse. Time can be an enemy at times and I would try to get this sorted out as soon as possible.

[Andie235]

No change this morning.
The vet is coming out this afternoon to look at him, give him his 3rd round of DMSO and to decide if he wants to xray his hind feet now.
This is really draining. I'm sitting here at work and I can't even concentrate!

[Tree]

How does this help the OP?

Tree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Lookout -

I am absolutely apalled at your stinky attitude. Do you not live in the REAL horseworld? Do you not own REAL horses, and work with a REAL vet?

At any given time I have Ace Promazine, Banamine, Bute, injectable Penicillin, and the anti-diarehea drug (can't recall the name here at work).

Sometimes a horse comes in from the pasture with a stone bruise and limping, or gets too much grass and has diarehea, or needs a minor dose of Banamine when he plays too hard with the other youngsters and ties up.

One of the fillies presented with a puncture wound in her forearm and very lame. I called the vet to get permission to self treat. She went on 2 grams of bute morning and night, and epsom salt soaks. I used a syringe (needle removed) to inject saline into the hole and keep it healing from the outside in. After a week, infection was present so I gave her 10 cc of injectable penicillin daily. After a few more days, she was all healed up. Now you cannot even notice a scar.

I have treated my own horses like this for more years than I can remember!

My veterinarian is WELL AWARE of the drugs that I keep, and he has thoroughly and precisely instructed me on when, how, and how much to use the above listed drugs.

If my horse has an OBVIOUS problem that is beyond my scope of expertise, then the vet is called ASAP and he comes to my farm. I don't mess around with stuff that could cause long term damage to a horse.

NEWSFLASH Lookout - I give all my own vaccinations (except Rabies). It's really not that difficult. The vet is aware of it, and has no problem. All I have to do is call the office and give them the date the vaccines were administered, and what was given. They log it on my chart.

You are right on target Fergie! I'm sorry that Lookout has chosen to patronize you and treat you like an ignorant fool. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif It really was totally uncalled for. Most horsepeople keep a supply of medications on hand to administer in the interim until the vet can come to the farm. It's really NOT the end of the world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fergie]

Two Simple:
Thank you. I was beginning to feel like a monster.... Thanks.

Andi235,
Hope your horse is better. Sometimes laminitis can hang around for a long time. Saw it lots at New Bolton. Stick with it!

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are right on target Fergie! I'm sorry that Lookout has chosen to patronize you and treat you like an ignorant fool. It really was totally uncalled for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe it's called Karma.

Andie235... best of luck with your guy! I hope you can get it worked out soon.

[Truckdobe]

Andie... glad that the ice gave him some relief!! JINGLING like mad for you!!!


While everyone is extolling their exp., it doesn't necessarily make drugs the right choice, not as often and non-chalantly that they are prescribed by Drs and Vets.

The reason I mentioned "old dog, new tricks"... Mom & Dad trained racehorses, Mom was vet tech, I grew up on race track and breeding/rehab farm then managed a med CT stable, two of my best friends are also techs. So we can hold off on the "real horse world" comments. I have realized that we are often "trained" to have the idea "a pill to cure your ill"; which can easily lead to over medicating or just medicating when it may not be necessary.

I'll keep my drug supply, I may need it one day. I'm just a LOT more selective than I was in the old days. Even if the drug is working, it is also creating side effects we may not see right away.

[Andie235]

Thanks to all! I'll bring the jingles with me when I go to the barn after work.
Still no other update- the vet hasn't shown yet (I should remember in Vet-eese, when they say 2, they mean 7!)

[gabz]

Andie - I so hope that your horse fully recovers and quickly.

If there was no obvious laminitis/ founder trigger (no spring grass, grain overload, etc.) perhaps it was something like Potomac Horse Fever or something similar that caused a fever that started the laminitis.

You might want to google or search this site for PHF.
I remember seeing in one of the catalogs a new type of hoof boot that could hold ice packs. But I bet you could tape ice packs to regular rubber bell boots if the cold will help at this point.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Lookout -

I am absolutely apalled at your stinky attitude. Do you not live in the REAL horseworld?
At any given time I have Ace Promazine, Banamine, Bute, injectable Penicillin, and the anti-diarehea drug (can't recall the name here at work).
I have treated my own horses like this for more years than I can remember!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you take someone's advice over the internet to do so?
I think you need to go back and slowly reread what was written, absorb it, and then come back and make your comment. In case you have difficulty doing so because you are so worked up - it said that a person who is NOT A VET should not be making medical suggestions over the internet. Tell me honestly, do you disagree with that?

[LMH]

Just a little story about using some "common knowledge" horse drugs without a vets advice.

When Polo foundered back in April he took a downslide one weekend and I had called the vet so many times...

anyway a friend sadi to give him some Banamine, bute and ace--"standard" founder protocol.

Well I didn't have ace (THANK GOODNESS---wrong choice according to many researchers for founder) and gave him some banamine...

he became VIOLENTLY ill that evening-blew loose stool all over the walls in at least 2 dozen places and as a result became very dehydrated.

Hell I could have lost him that night.

I don't think I would be using THAT choice drug for a foundered horse again and certainly not without a direct consult from my vet.

Just something to think about.

[No Chrome]

Andi, I'm so sorry to hear about your horse. Keep your chin up. We recently had a "Cushings" founder, and the horse is now fantastic!

As for the rest of these posts, oh my. My first thing to say is any vet who won't leave you bute, banamine, or SMZ's either thinks you are not responsible enough to use them wisely, or they are after your money.

I'm sorry, but EVERYONE needs Banamine on hand. Suppose your horse colics when your vet is out of town, and you have to call the vet covering for him...and they are an hour away. Do you want your horse to be in pain that much longer? Not me! I'd rather get the vet on the phone, give them the low down, and follow instructions which usually include giving them Banamine (after taking the temp!). If you own a horse, you better know how to use an oral syringe! Injectable drugs are great, but not typically neccesary.

I think that my vet would think me a fool to not have meds on hand. I have a very good working relationship with my vet, and he expects me to be able to handle some instances. I called him a few days ago to get a bottle - yes a whole bottle - of Ace to get my pony's feet done, and no questions are asked. I don't abuse it. I use it as absolutely necessary. Now I have it on hand if I need it-have you ever turned a horse out that just came off the track????? Ace is your friend!

I read Fergie's post, and what I got from it was DID you give Banamine? You might want to look into this if you haven't....i.e. call your vet and see what they think!! I saw nothing wrong. This sounds like an informed person. I'm sure one learns something while working at New Bolton!!

As a PS, I would like to say that I am always told if I think a horse is foundering, give it bute immediately. The only time I was instructed to give Banamine was when the horses all got loose and ran like idiots all over the farm, and my smart horse went to the feed room (which someone left unlocked) and helped himself to A LOT of grain while still sweating and huffing and puffing. The vet told me to get Banamine in him asap....

Not saying drugs are always the answer. But it is good to have such items on hand. Nobody says you should use them without consulting your vet.....

[chai]

Andie, it sounds like you are doing all the right things for Reilly, especially keeping the vet right on top of things. Our pony has been through the same thing and imho, the Ketofin can make them very loopy and it did not seem to help our pony pain-wise. Like Reilly, our pony did not want to walk. It was heartbreaking to see her stiff-legged up front, gently placing her feet down gingerly when she had to move. Here are a few things that imho, helped:
ice bags: equine rectal exam sleeves filled with ice, tied around the hoof are a godsend.
no-sugar mints crushed in low-sugar applesauce helps turn medicine time into a treat; Reiki therapy was also a huge help when our pony was in great pain. The Reiki therapist is such a wonderful man, he actually laid down in the stall next to her on days when she would not get up. Sigafoos glue on shoes were also a great help: removable rails can help with angles and the hoof has support without insulting the hoof wall with nails.
Hopefully, Reilly's will be a mild laminitis and you will be spared the nightmare we endured with recurring abcessation. It took a full year before our pony recovered but it was worth every minute and every dime. Lots and lots of dimes... Sending jingles to Reilly! Hang in there, little guy.

[Tree]

Drugs are a last resort on my place. Through the years I've learned a number of ways to help colicking animals get through their ordeal. Most cases were mild gas colics where bouncing the belly or loading up in the trailer for a short ride was all that was needed. The only fatal colic happened to a very old pony after several frequent mild colics so I had some banamine on hand. She required med attention when the banamine didn't phase her. In her case it was a very bad impaction so she was euthed.

In cases of laminitis or founder, drugs are still a last resort. Remember though, these animals are always out and are also barefoot. There's no need for a horse to not be aware of pain signals in its feet when ignoring them could cause more damage. The only I'd use bute for a founder would be if the animal refused to move at all when it needed to. I've not had to bute any founder cases here though. They were always willing to move on their own.

So, it truly depends on the situations.

Tree

[swampgum]

Gabz---hope you read this. Noticed your comment on ice packs. Unfortunately this idea of treating founder with cold water is total nonsense and sadly this treatment has been encouraged by vets and farriers alike for years and anybody who tells you this is ignorant to the facts. In the very beginning this form of treatment came from the obvious. A horse suffering from laminitis would seek out cold water and stand in it. This is the obvious thing for an animal to do when its feet were hurting. So all the so called experts automatically said heh ! We must do the same. Cold water thickens the blood. When a horse has laminitis you have to get the blood flowing in the feet to flush out the histamines which are causing the swelling and hence the rotation of the coffin bone so you have to do the opposite to what a horse would do itself and what still too many uninformed people suggest to do. You have to thin the blood so you put their feet in hot water--as hot as you can tolerate putting your own feet in(add some epsom salts). So anybody using ice packs is prolonging the horses suffering--certainly not hastening recovery

[Andie235]

Ah- morning update to go with my morning coffee.
Well, the vet came out yesterday but didn't really have too much more to add. We are going to pull his back shoes and put foam on so he can find he comfort zone.
My farrier will be out today- I have always considered his input down right invaluble- so I look forward to picking his brain yet again.
That said, he IS doing a little better from Sat., at least now he will move about his stall a bit.
Oh- and I've discovered that he has adopted a small family of mice. They won't leave his stall! An adult and 2 little ones. I guess if I won't get him a goat or other stall buddy he's just going to find his own!

[JB]

swampgum, I find that interesting. The article I read, which I believe had been based in quite a few case studies and further research, indicated that the immediate concern for acute laminitis (not to be confused with founder) was to reduce inflammation, since that's what laminitis is. This meant fairly high doses of bute for the short term - to reduce inflammation. So wouldn't it stand to reason that icing the feet would help in a similar matter?

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Are you up to date on vaccinations? How about bottulism? What are his temp., pulse, and respiration? Are his gums slimy or tacky? Does he have digital pulses up front or behind? (Do you know how to check for this?) What temp. are his feet? Sound like he could use 10 cc's of Banamine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There seems to be some confusion over what Fergie had said originally. So I've taken the upper portion of her original post and quoted it. Note the LAST sentence. There is no question mark following it so it was NOT a question at all but a perscription made by someone who is not a vet or had even seen the horse in question. The OP said the horse had rotation so that rules out laminitis. If banamine is not used to treat foundered horses, why did Fergie even mention it at all?

Tree

[Andie235]

Tree-
Why do you say rotation rules out laminitis? I understand that acute laminitis usually only involves the inflamation of the laminae, but chronic laminitis can include rotation.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
I don't believe I've ever heard or read that a foundering horse should receive banamine. Maybe you should have done a little more research first?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why, just in this thread it was. That's probably the best advice you could give to the OP about following medication advice here.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
And Lookout - maybe you should re-read Fergi's post in which he/she simply asked if Banamine had been given. I don't recall seeing where Banamine was prescribed to this horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you should start at the beginning of the thread.

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Tree-
Why do you say rotation rules out laminitis? I understand that acute laminitis usually only involves the inflamation of the laminae, but chronic laminitis can include rotation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Rotation is founder, simply put, if you're talking about rotation being measured using the coffin bone and toe wall. You're past laminitis when the coffin bone is rotating away from the toe wall. Chronic laminitis doesn't necessarily result in rotation if the coffin bone has no place to rotate to...like when it is ground parallel. However, laminitis due to a coffin bone being maintained on a tilt can lead to founder (rotation).

If you have chronic rotation, that's chronic founder, not laminitis.

Tree

[pegasus209]

Andie,
glad to hear he is feeling a bit better. Hang in there!
If 'rotation' (seperation of coffin bone from inner front of hoof wall)follows laminitis, the horse is considered foundered. This can be an awful roller coaster ride, but recovery is possible!
Jingles and hugs from texas http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Sandbarhorse]

JB- I believe the current veterinary treatment protocols no longer call for ice or cold hosing. I don't remember the reason, but do remember my vet (sadly no longer my vet) telling me that, back when my mare had a weird toxicosis laminitis which, thankfully, resolved in less than 24 hours with no rotation.

I do remember he said don't do it and in a very nice way, told me I was an idiot who was wasting her time when I kept checking hoof temperature over the next few days and "reporting" it to him.

I trust him that this was the latest, as he was always great about keeping up with things.

[Tree]

Speaking for myself, Two Simple, I had no problem realizing this. The issue went deeper than Fergie's prescription. It then became an issue of who knew what and why breaking down further into who is better than whom until the OP topic was simply cast aside except for those who managed to keep the focus. Details were lost in an effort to side with someone who appeared to be picked upon when the facts remained unchanged.

I'm glad Andie dismissed the 10cc's of banamine part of Fergie's post. But if someone else were to see this and take it as sound advice, the results could be quite unfavorable.

Lookout read Fergie's post carefully...MORE carefully than others did....and she brought attention to that little detail that was not a question after all. The drug was identified and the amount was specific too. "Sound(s) like he needs 10cc's of banamine", could be thought of as a prescription by someone who doesn't know better and takes this as the voice of authority. After all, it seems that many of you have easy access to banamine. It won't necessarily mean all understand its uses.

It was irresponsible and for all the grief Lookout has faced since bringing it up, atleast it brought more attention to the real problem...a specific dosage of a specific drug was made when it should not have been.

I think this WAS examined further and just as well it was. Hopefully it prevented someone from making a costly mistake.

I see no need to leave this forum. I do think Lookout deserves an apology though.

Tree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Tree and Lookout:

You both need to realize that this is an INTERNET CHAT FORUM. Nothing more - nothing less. This is a place in which people can discuss IDEAS, ADVICE, TIPS, HINTS, TRICKS, etc. No one, anywhere at any time claimed they were a veterinarian.

Any advice given on this thread or ANY OTHER THREAD is simply that - ADVICE. It is not an "internet prescription" for a sick animal. You both seem to be forgetting that there is a distinct separation between internet chat forums and "real life" in which the vet, farrier, owner, and any other concerned individuals are directly involved in the care and rehabilitation of the sick animal.

This is a medium for gathering information. Once that information is gathered it can be heeded, discarded, or examined further. It can be used as peace of mind. It can be used to back up information given from a veterinarian or farrier.

If you have such a big problem with this, then I would strongly suggest you stop reading and posting to internet chat forums because 99.9% of what you read is nothing more than discussion from which to cement your own opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tree]

Hi Sandbar,

Veterinary changes with the times...or some do while other never alter from the old-school teachings.

I never checked hoof temp because that wasn't a concern, really. Inflammation causes more heat. I was told to alternate using cold and warm water.

However, I'm more facinated by what horses choose to do on their own. When horses had access to a stream, pond or other area which provided water to stand in, they would when their hooves were quite painful. Some were recovering from founder while others just had ongoing abscesses. One recovering foundered mare had no water in her turnout but there was a tarp covered pile of clean shavings and during a rain she'd stand on the tarp and because her feet sank into it, the rain water would pool around those feet. Horses are so smart!

Yes, laminitis can resolve in as quickly as 3 days. Saw this with an arab during a bout with clover toxicity. But his feet were hosed as part of the treatment. The rest of his treatment meant moving him to an area with no clover.

Many times horses can be suffering chronic bouts of laminitis and not present any signs of lameness. The only real sign will be minor growth rings and redness in the white lines which will eventually show as they grow out.

Tree



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sandbarhorse:
JB- I believe the current veterinary treatment protocols no longer call for ice or cold hosing. I don't remember the reason, but do remember my vet (sadly no longer my vet) telling me that, back when my mare had a weird toxicosis laminitis which, thankfully, resolved in less than 24 hours with no rotation.

I do remember he said don't do it and in a very nice way, told me I was an idiot who was wasting her time when I kept checking hoof temperature over the next few days and "reporting" it to him.

I trust him that this was the latest, as he was always great about keeping up with things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fergie]

Would you please stop saying my "prescription". This is SOOOOOOOOOOOO exaggerated. Andi235 did not take a note from a prescription pad signed by me, the one with the honorary veterinary degree, to the pharmacy to get filled. What is your major malfunction?

[Tree]

Geez,

Don't you read for content? Andie said in her OP that there was some rotation. It's not clear yet where the rotation was measured but usually, it's to do with the orientation of the coffin bone to the toe wall. Not many vets recognize the rotation without separation condition. So the founder part was not truly an unknown. I think Andie was thinking rotation could exist and it was still considered laminitis which is not the case.

Tree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
I don't believe I've ever heard or read that a foundering horse should receive banamine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lookout: Why, just in this thread it was. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again - this is a CHAT FORUM in which people are discussing the possibility that this horse MAY have foundered. So far I am unaware that the vet has determined the horse DID founder, and then banamine WAS prescribed as treatment.

So...invalid argument here...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Maybe you should have done a little more research first?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lookout:
That's probably the best advice you could give to the OP about following medication advice here.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would appear that this is precisely what the original poster is doing, and so no reiteration is necessary that she should do some more research. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif She has started a thread to discuss what might be wrong with her horse, to gather more information, and garner opinions and advice from others who may have dealt with similar situations.

Let's just agree to disagree on the self-medication bit, okay? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Arguing gets old. lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tree]

Had you'd asked if banamine had been used, it would've gone differently. She could have had the bottle of banamine in her barn and just could have done what you'd said, give him 10cc's of banamine. She could have printed your original post out and had that to follow. Hmmmm?

Tree



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Would you please stop saying my "prescription". This is SOOOOOOOOOOOO exaggerated. Andi235 did not take a note from a prescription pad signed by me, the one with the honorary veterinary degree, to the pharmacy to get filled. What is your major malfunction? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fergie]

You are really being absurd. Don't you have anything better to do than write about my Banamine comments? (Just to let you know, though, that 10 ccs is a standard horsey amount that anyone who HAS a bottle of Banamine should know.) This is not priviledged information, you know. She did say she was in contact with her vet. She was looking for ideas... Sounds like you have a problem with me!

[Andie235]

Tree- sorry about the cofusiuon there. I think so many people tend to use laminitis and faounder interchangably that it gets confusing.
My vet is still considering this laminitis, not founder, because (according to him) there is a slight rotation of the coffin bone as a result of conformation that is causing irritation to the laminiae, aka swelling.
But that was vet #2.
Vet #3 came out today and now- get this- he's thinking it's somehting neurological- EPM. He doesn't doubt that there may be laminitis, but he thinks that could be secondary.
He informed me that EPM can be exaserbated by stress and the 2 times Reilly went down hill was when he returned from a show and when he returned from thre clinic for x-rays. Traveling=stress for him.
I suppose it could make sense- he has lost a lot of weight and muscle tone in the last month since this all started. And when he tries to walk it does appear neurological.
Anyway, I'm having them do the blood test to see if he has even a weak positive (indicitive only of being exposed to the organism). I guess we'll take it from there. We may go ahead and give him a course of Marquis.
It's just so weird. He really simply isn't fitting into any specific catagory of symptoms. But then again, he never could be simple about anything!

[Tree]

I'm home sick today, so no, I have nothing better to do.

I think the banamine part deserves far more attention than barn size and the rest, don't you?

Tree



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
You are really being absurd. Don't you have anything better to do than write about my Banamine comments? (Just to let you know, though, that 10 ccs is a standard horsey amount that anyone who HAS a bottle of Banamine should know.) This is not priviledged information, you know. She did say she was in contact with her vet. She was looking for ideas... Sounds like you have a problem with me! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lookout]

Andie, it is starting to sound more like it could be neurological especially the observation that he goes downhill after experiencing stress. The fact that he did have (or still has?) digital pulses indicates that there is something going with his feet though. Maybe the stress of a laminitic attack is exacerbating the symptoms of a heretofore undiagnosed neurological condition. Rotation often goes undignosed for a long time and now that there are obvious symptoms causing everything to be looked at, that vet would say it's "conformational", but it has more likely just not been noticed until now. It sounds like you may be dealing with two things here; I would investigate founder treatment options more and make sure your farrier really is knowlegeable.

[fergie]

See, there are a lot of vets on this thing!

[fergie]

Checkmate, Tree.

[Tree]

Lookout has already responded to this post of your's but I'll add to it where I can.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Tree- sorry about the cofusiuon there. I think so many people tend to use laminitis and faounder interchangably that it gets confusing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that is true.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
My vet is still considering this laminitis, not founder, because (according to him) there is a slight rotation of the coffin bone as a result of conformation that is causing irritation to the laminiae, aka swelling.
But that was vet #2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vet #2 would be incorrect then. Maybe he doesn't consider rotation founder until it becomes higher than "slight"? Rotation is rotation and deserves more attention than he is giving it. The idea is to prevent the rotation from increasing and that mind-set would probably not lend itself towards prevention. As Lookout said, rotation has nothing to do with conformation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Vet #3 came out today and now- get this- he's thinking it's somehting neurological- EPM. He doesn't doubt that there may be laminitis, but he thinks that could be secondary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe and maybe not as far as the rotation being secondary. I still think #3 is missing the importance of the rotation that is already visible on xray...playing that down a little too much because it's slight. That can certainly change quickly and become far more significant in no time.

Hooves are so vascular and important when it comes to the circulatory system. The coffin bones should not be rotated at all and maintaining them on a tilt, as farriery calls for, only causes undo stress to the toe laminae so when something else comes along, it can be the straw which broke the camel's back. Slight rotation is so much easier to treat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
He informed me that EPM can be exaserbated by stress and the 2 times Reilly went down hill was when he returned from a show and when he returned from thre clinic for x-rays. Traveling=stress for him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's not thinking in terms of body stresses which are already present though, like the feet. Where ever this horse goes, he has to get there on those feet unless he's down or in a sling.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
I suppose it could make sense- he has lost a lot of weight and muscle tone in the last month since this all started. And when he tries to walk it does appear neurological. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blood tests can help to confirm the EPM or the spinal tap but horses can appear to neurological when their feet hurt too....especially all 4's. You've been keeping him up and this affects his circualtory system as well. His heart would be having to work harder to get blood into the legs. Gravity gets blood down them easily but sending blood up the legs normally happens when feet contract when lifted, forcing blood out of them and back up the limbs. It makes sense for there to be muscle changes also because he's probably having to use them more than normal in order to remain standing.

You'd mentioned foam pads but all that will do is restrict the blood flow into the sole area of his feet...effectively numbing them...so he'll appear more comfortable (maybe) or worse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Anyway, I'm having them do the blood test to see if he has even a weak positive (indicitive only of being exposed to the organism). I guess we'll take it from there. We may go ahead and give him a course of Marquis.
It's just so weird. He really simply isn't fitting into any specific catagory of symptoms. But then again, he never could be simple about anything! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good luck and jingles all around! I've just never seen founder cases fare well being couped up. How old is this horse. I've forgotten if you said.

Tree

[fergie]

And Tree is vet #4.....

[Andie235]

Oh- I'm sorry- I didn't mean to imply that anyone was ignoring the rotation. They're not. They just think there may be something more going on as well.

He's 18, by the way, and never ever acted his age as long as I've owned him ^_^

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Well, that pretty much sums it all up! Sorry Tree - I refuse to rise to the bait of someone who has "nothing better to do" than stir up havoc on a chat forum. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Please do look elsewhere for another juicy candidate. This one is all dried up! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh? So it's okay for you to stir things up but not okay if others wish to respond?

Tree

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:

Don't worry - after doing a quick search, I have found plenty of advice that Tree and Lookout have both given on other threads on how to treat various problems with everybody's horses. Perhaps they should follow their own advice and quit giving veterinary tips since they are not veterinarians. (correct me if I'm wrong.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And where is it that we've prescribed any drugs? In the state of NC, farriery isn't considered a veterinary practice. I'd love to see samples of what you think is "veterinary tips" that I've given. You seem to want something to do, why not back it up?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
These two appear to be roosters trying out their spurs on anyone who invades their turf. If we ignore them, they'll quit.

Like I said - let's just agree to disagree. No sense gettin huffy over this little stuff http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, Lookout and I both happen to practice the same methods of hoofcare so we do have that in common.

Tree

[fergie]

upidstay

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
And Tree is vet #4..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just in case somoeone were to read this and think it's accurate info, let's clear this up right now.

I am not a veterinarian nor a veteran of any war. And since we're not supposed to advertise or appear to do so, click on my name and see my info there.

Thanks!

Tree

[fergie]

upidstay...

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
upidstay... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Tree]

Oh good. Well again, I hope your farrier gets the hooves under control and the vet(s) run the neccessary tests to find what all else is going on.

Tree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Oh- I'm sorry- I didn't mean to imply that anyone was ignoring the rotation. They're not. They just think there may be something more going on as well.

He's 18, by the way, and never ever acted his age as long as I've owned him ^_^ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
And Tree is vet #4..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif where has Tree offered veterinary advice? I don't see how having and sharing knowledge of the equine circulatory system (or how the feet work) and what negatively affects it is telling the OP what to do or pretending to be a vet in any way. Sharing information and experience, what a concept, who'da thought you'd see that on a bb?

She and Lookout often go out of their way to indicate in their experience as it relates to a thread for the very reason of NOT prescribing treatment. Please show where you feel they have offered veterinary advice. I see you also like to "suggest" ace before riding a spazy horse, and whadya know, turned out to be hormones.

[Sandbarhorse]

My understanding, Two, is that it can be. With my mare, the vet pondered anti-histamines or a 1/2 dose lasix, as he was sure it was something toxic that had come on strong, as it manifested between 10pm and 7am. Apparently, both cannot be used at once.

I opted for the Lasix, as I'd seen another vet use it on a pony mare with a toxicosis that came on suddenly, with tremendous results. I was lucky and had the same awesome results with my mare.

She came out of it, after being crippled off on all 4, to having be stalled by the afternoon when he stopped back, as she was bucking across the paddock!! My farrier never saw any sign of anything in her feet and after 4 months off (I'm a touch over protective http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif), I started her back to work without incident.

[Andie235]

Sandbar-
Did you ever have xrays taken?

[Sandbarhorse]

Actually, I was given the choice by the vet and opted not to. He supported that decision, given the fast recovery and based on the farrier's findings over the next 4 months. The farrier, who I also have tremendous respect for, said he'd never have believed that she was that bad off.

I can tell you that it's now 1 1/2 years later and I've had her in a fairly hard reining training program since the spring, with quite a few shows. Thankfully, we've seen no problems either in work or when being shod. Hope I didn't just jinx myself.

I did quite a bit of internet research, at the time, about laminits and found some interesting things on a european website for a founder treatment veterinary group. I wish I could find the link again, but haven't been able to. It did also convince me that the only hoof supplement worth anything for laminitis/founder problems is Farrier's Formula. I put her on the Work Plus version and, up until about a week ago kept her on it. I don't know if it had anything to do with her recovery, but it's worth considering. Any hint of a problem and she'll be back on it in a NY minute.

[Lookout]

Again, it sounds like founder and laminitis are being used interchangeably, and incorrectly. It sounds like your horse had a laminitic (inflammatory) reaction which she soon got over.
Recovery from founder is a longer, harder road.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sandbarhorse:
My understanding, Two, is that it can be. With my mare, the vet pondered anti-histamines or a 1/2 dose lasix, as he was sure it was something toxic that had come on strong, as it manifested between 10pm and 7am. Apparently, both cannot be used at once.

I opted for the Lasix, as I'd seen another vet use it on a pony mare with a toxicosis that came on suddenly, with tremendous results. I was lucky and had the same awesome results with my mare.

She came out of it, after being crippled off on all 4, to having be stalled by the afternoon when he stopped back, as she was bucking across the paddock!! My farrier never saw any sign of anything in her feet and after 4 months off (I'm a touch over protective http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif), I started her back to work without incident. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sandbarhorse]

Lookout, I don't think I ever said she foundered.

From page 4: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> back when my mare had a weird toxicosis laminitis </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, and I do attribute the fast and luckily, effective, treatment to it staying a laminitis, rather than progressing to founder.

Histamines apparently can lead to laminitis and ultimately founder, assuming I understood my vet correctly. I also believe that I saw references to it on the other sites I found during my "quest for knowledge". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:

needs a minor dose of Banamine when he plays too hard with the other youngsters and ties up.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd not give flunixin to an animal which ties up without also administering fluids.
Not good for the kidneys.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
One of the fillies presented with a puncture wound in her forearm and very lame. ..After a week, infection was present so I gave her 10 cc of injectable penicillin daily. After a few more days, she was all healed up. Now you cannot even notice a scar.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

10 cc once a day? Or 5 cc twice a day?
Either way, if it was procaine penicillin G you were probably underdosing. Unless it was a *very* small filly...

And if it was benzathine penicillin (allegedly useful for once daily dosing)the stuff is worthless in horses. You don't get therapueutuc levels of the drug.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by swampgum:
Cold water thickens the blood. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not unless you get it down near the freezing point.

[Tree]

While reading the below quote I thought back to the time (back in the early 80's) when a mare I had retained placenta. The vet had me giving her 20cc's of penicillin twice a day. I'm going to assume it was procaine. It's been so long ago that all I can definitely say is that it was thick, white, sticky and in a very large bottle.

She ended up reacting to it...oozed syrum from the skin above all 4 hooves after about 3 days of this. She was also not looking forward to seeing me either...uh oh, the needle lady! It was fun trying to alternate injection sites for each shot. Was glad when that was all over with. The placenta was finally flushed out and she fully recovered from it all.

Tree



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
One of the fillies presented with a puncture wound in her forearm and very lame. ..After a week, infection was present so I gave her 10 cc of injectable penicillin daily. After a few more days, she was all healed up. Now you cannot even notice a scar.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

10 cc once a day? Or 5 cc twice a day?
Either way, if it was procaine penicillin G you were probably underdosing. Unless it was a *very* small filly...

And if it was benzathine penicillin (allegedly useful for once daily dosing)the stuff is worthless in horses. You don't get therapueutuc levels of the drug. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ghazzu]

Regarding the current theories on treating laminits with cold, the advice coming from Chris Pollitt's work is that cold is indicated before/during the
developmental phase, to decrease the influx of triggering factors into the hoof in the first place.
For instance, a post operative colic case might be seen wearing little "ice bracelets". Or a mare with a retained placenta, etc.

Once clinical signs have appeared, I expect the ice to be of negligible benefit, if any.

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by swampgum:
Cold water thickens the blood. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not unless you get it down near the freezing point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was new to me! I'm not sure what a horse is like when its blood nears the freezing point. It must be near dead!

Cold reduces inflammation and slow circulation, right? Of course, that goes against healing principles though. Increaased blood flow speeds healing and the repair of damaged tissues.

Tree

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sandbarhorse:
Lookout, I don't think I ever said she foundered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I do see that. I guess I should have quoted this post too:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Does anyone have any more information on founder being a histamine reaction? I had not heard this before and just did a net search that didn't turn up much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:

Penicillin G is geneally used in veterinary practice for horses and this is what I have on hand. Penicillin Benzathine is a long release form of the drug which enables fewer injections. Usually once every 48 hours. Accepted dosage of Penicillin G is 1.0ml (1cc) per 100 lbs of body weight once per day. So, no, the horse was not under-dosed.

And yes, the gelding who ties up gets banamine under veterinary orders. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I can't find a single up to date reference that recommends SID dosing.

q 12 hours is the norm, with at least one recommendation to treat foals q 6hours.

And you're off by a factor of 3 on the amount. The recommended 22,000 IU/kg, which is 10,000 IU/lb comes in at 3 cc/100 lbs BW. And that's the low end.
Dosages of up to 50,000 IU/kg (q 6 hours) are recommended for foals by some authorities.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If your vet recommends differently, then good for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

She does.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Do a google search for "penicillin dosage horses." I just did and got quite a few references to what I just told you. If you truly are interested, then feel free to do the research yourself. I don't have time to do it for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've done *my* research. It included the current edition of "Plumb's Veterinary Formulary", as well as proceedings from the 2002 and 2004 WVC.

A bit more credible than the web at large.

[swampgum]

Tree--if you ever have a horse go down with laminitis do as I previously posted and it works a treat. Histamines are released into the blood stream(same affect as the adrenaline rush we get when a deer jumps out in front of us as we drive along the road) due to mouldy feed, excessive grain, gorging cold water on a very hot day when the body temperature is up or excessive grazing over a period of time on new season grass. These histamines travel to the farthest extremities which happen to be the feet. The blood vessels surrounding the coffin bone begin to swell which tears the sensitive laminae away which starts the rotation. Cold water slows blood circulation throughout the hoof which is detrimental to healing. Hot water(with epsom salts) speeds up circulation which rapidly flushes the histamines and speeds up healing. As mentioned bannamine is a great aid. If anything can put a smile on your horses face when they are in extreme pain the above proven treatment will

[fergie]

Two Simple,
Can you believe all of this? So many experts, so many extremists, so much tunnel vision. It's actually quite sad.
P.S. I was told by a D.V.M. to give Banamine to a horse that had tied up - Ace too. (And actually, I already knew this, but checked anyway, imagine that?) Nope, no fluids, and yes the kidneys survived - the horse is still alive today. Every decision has prices, risks, consequences. I just try to weigh them out. It's that whole risk/reward cost-benefit analysis idea. I think we do this all the time, in every part of our lives....?

[Ghazzu]

Let me rephrase my earlier caution on administration of flunixin to a tied up horse.

I'd not do it without having a veterinarian examine the beast first.

IOW, not an over the phone type consult, and certainly not a "here, keep this in the medicine cabinet and use it as you see fit."

[fergie]

Unbelievable..................

[Mary in Area 1]

uh, guys, isn't ghazzu a vet? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I'd certainly listen to her before I'd believe some googled nonsense.

[Lookout]

Oh, the rich irony. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Ghazzu - the licensed DVM that cares for my horses is considered a more credible source than some anonymous internet personality on the web named "Ghazzu." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by swampgum:
Tree--if you ever have a horse go down with laminitis do as I previously posted and it works a treat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I will keep this in mind but want to comment on a few things below.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by swampgum:
Histamines are released into the blood stream(same affect as the adrenaline rush we get when a deer jumps out in front of us as we drive along the road) due to mouldy feed, excessive grain, gorging cold water on a very hot day when the body temperature is up or excessive grazing over a period of time on new season grass. These histamines travel to the farthest extremities which happen to be the feet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where might I be able to read studies supporting this? I'm sure you're giving me a very condensed version. I mean, there are horses that are not affected by the list of things you mentioned.

I've read cases studies where horses were purposely set up to founder but not all of them did. There didn't seem to be any data to say why some were not affected as expected.

How quickly did you say the recovery period was? I've seen laminits clear up in a matter of 3 days or within a day of the horse/pony being removed from the trigger/cause, like clover.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by swampgum:
The blood vessels surrounding the coffin bone begin to swell which tears the sensitive laminae away which starts the rotation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where does the laminae become damaged the most? I mean, not only does blood (corium) surround the bone but it also forms the sensative laminae. So when rotation occurs, it means the toe laminae has been affected. If it were a case of a sinker, it would mean all laminar attachments were lost. I've learned that improper hoof form precedes rotation. The toe laminae, being the most stessed, are more subseptable to the trigger. So it would seem that not all of the sensative laminae are affected. However, if you have a link to lead me to the info source you're using, I'd be interested in reading it. I've got little else to do for now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by swampgum:
Cold water slows blood circulation throughout the hoof which is detrimental to healing. Hot water(with epsom salts) speeds up circulation which rapidly flushes the histamines and speeds up healing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Epsom salts dries hooves but the warm water would be less bothersome to a horse with hot feet than cold. I no longer use epsom salts on hooves because it counters the affects of the water. A dry hoof can become too inflexible and this also affects the hoof function which ties into blood flow to and from the foot.

Truckdobe gave a great discription of the benefits of soaking hooves and the use of ACV/water solution during abscessing.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by swampgum:
As mentioned bannamine is a great aid. If anything can put a smile on your horses face when they are in extreme pain the above proven treatment will </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't reach so quickly for drugs. A doped horse might smile but cause more damage to its hooves when pain is reduced. The extreme pain tends to come from the heel area. If you notice, foundered horses will toe walk while moving even though they try to relieve their toes when standing.

At any rate, I have the ability to trim horse's hooves so that they feel better so drugs aren't my first choice, correct hoof form is plus finding the trigger source and removing the horse from that too.

I don't have problems with horses or ponies getting laminitis or foundering on this place. I tend to bring them in for rehab and/or trim client's horses that have foundered or had a bout of laminitis. I would rather prevent it than have to deal with the aftermath. It's easy to prevent it here.

Now then, where can I find the info supporting what you're talking about?

Tree

[Lookout]

Just like Andie has no clue what fergie is or is not.

[JB]

*snort* Ghazzu IS a vet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Edited to say: Drats, should have finished reading the thread before I posted! lol

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
My credible information source is my licensed veterinarian. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hearsay isn't credible. Your vet would have to post on this board for it to be credible.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I like to watch Judge Judy when I get the chance. But please folks, don't assume I'm now a judge.

I am not a judge!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Tree

[fergie]

"snort"?????????????
And the fact that Ghazzu is a vet changes what? Ghazzu is not the vet I would use. She hasn't changed my opinions one bit. She has reinforced the idea that there are a lot of quacks out there. What do you call the person who graduated last in medical school? Doctor. That's the thing about medicine - many theories and always changing. Personally, I can't afford to have the vet out all the time. Sounds like she thinks they should always be out for everything. On wall street we called this "churning" the accounts.

[LMH]

I am getting a little confused here on cold water and laminitis.

I was just reading that in fact iced water IS good treatment.

So...can we go over this one more time? It seems there are 2 schools of thought on this.

[Andie235]

Wow...um, well, I just wanted to say that we're going to retest for Cushing's (results inconclusive) and wait for 2 of the vet's to touch base with each other and trade ideas.
That's all for now.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Ghazzu is not the vet I would use.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Funny, I don't recall soliciting your practice.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
She has reinforced the idea that there are a lot of quacks out there. What do you call the person who graduated last in medical school? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Back atcha, sugar. You've reinforced my suspicion that there are a lot of people out there who think they can practice medicine without knowing any.
And some of the worst offenders in that category are nursing students.

While some of my classes *were* with medical students, I didn't go to medical school.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> That's the thing about medicine - many theories and always changing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theories are all well and good, but I prefer things like MIC and serum half-life when I'm dealing with drug doses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Sounds like she thinks they should always be out for everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not listening well, then.

[Tree]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LOL, LMH. Why not just ask the horse the next time you encounter laminitis. They're really honest.

Tree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
I am getting a little confused here on cold water and laminitis.

I was just reading that in fact iced water IS good treatment.

So...can we go over this one more time? It seems there are 2 schools of thought on this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
"snort"?????????????
And the fact that Ghazzu is a vet changes what? Ghazzu is not the vet I would use. She hasn't changed my opinions one bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But your contributions carry more weight and credibility for people like Andie?

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
"snort"?????????????
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, much more common and well-known than "upidstay" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Lookout]

What about testing for EPM, or other neurological issues, are you having that done?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Wow...um, well, I just wanted to say that we're going to retest for Cushing's (results inconclusive) and wait for 2 of the vet's to touch base with each other and trade ideas.
That's all for now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fergie]

It's not sounding like she is. I'd put money on it that he/she/it is not a large animal vet and hasn't done any work with equine athletes such as racehorses.

[Tree]

Remember—the forum is for discussion; not self-promotion.

Tree

[Ghazzu]

I see no reason whatsoever that I need to provide you with specific information.
I'll leave it at:
yes, I hold a DVM.
yes, I am licensed and accredited.
I practice ambulatory medicine, teach in a vet tech/animal sciences program at the college level, and do some computer work for VIN.

I believe there are people on this bb who have met me in real life.

How I spend my time is my affair and not yours, don't you think?
And "hours" is a tad exaggerated.
I pop in at intervals.
Right now, I'm browsing while grading exams.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
It's not sounding like she is. I'd put money on it that he/she/it is not a large animal vet and hasn't done any work with equine athletes such as racehorses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hope you didn't bet much.
You'd lose.
I was working with TB's way before I went to vet school. In fact, it was my employer and his family who encouraged me to go for it, as my guidance counselor was a jackass.

[fergie]

That also explains why her information contradicts much of the advice from field vets I've worked with. What is that saying??? Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach? I wasn't aware that there was "ambulatory medicine".... is there a 911 number that can get a vet out to pick up my dog if needed? Or are we talking about the horse trailer with the big red cross on it at the 3-days? Didn't say what you did with TB's....

[fergie]

Didn't say what you did with TB's. So is there a 911 # that I can call for vet emergencies that will send an ambulance out? Or is that the horse trailer with the red cross on it at 3days that you're talking about?? What is that saying again...? Oh yeah, "those who can, do, and those who can't, teach...." It's sounding like a true saying.....

[JB]

Gosh, it took me about 30 seconds to do a quick Google search and find all sorts of information on equine ambulatory medicine associated with accredited vet schools. Even associated with R&R - huh, how 'bout that! And, if you again read for comprehension she said she practices as such.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Thanks for the information - it confirmed what I was thinking - Ghazzu is NOT a practicing veterinarian.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you need a remedial reading comprehension course.
"I practice ambulatory medicine"
My clients would certainly be surprised that I'm not practicing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> But I do have a problem with a non-practicing DVM college teacher telling me that I'm dosing penicillin improperly while I am acting under the instruction of a practicing DVM who was injecting penicillin while the college teacher was still in diapers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, since I *am* practicing, I guess you have no problem, then http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
So, where'd you get my birthdate?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
And no worries Ghazzu - that's a COMPLIMENT! This guy is pretty old. lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My favorite large animal practitioner graduated from school the year I was born.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
That also explains why her information contradicts much of the advice from field vets I've worked with. What is that saying??? Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach? I wasn't aware that there was "ambulatory medicine".... Didn't say what you did with TB's.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry you aren't familiar with the terminology, but if you look it up you'll find it means, in veterinary terms, veterinarians who travel, i.e., make farm calls, vs. those who work at a clinic and have clients haul in. So, guess that would put me out in the "field", eh?

What I did with TB's was groom, hot walk, help with breeding, care for mares and foals, and occasionally gallop.

Any road, cavil all you want.
And feel free to keep asking about my qualifications for giving veterinary advice.
Because, from what we've seen here, so far, is that they're better than yurs, and wasn't that the original point?

[fergie]

There are lots of vets who make farm calls that I would not use or listen to.... O.K. you hotwalked - you can't "occasionally" gallop - I used to do it for a living - I know..... but did you treat TB's for tying up, did you tap joints, you know, sports medicine? Of course, you can say anything you want, can't you? We have know way of knowing, do we?

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
..... but did you treat TB's for tying up, did you tap joints, you know, sports medicine? Of course, you can say anything you want, can't you? We have know way of knowing, do we? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I have.
Yes, I have.
No, you don't.
Ask me if I care.

[Sierra]

Wow. All I can say is wow.

Ghazzu...you can ambulate to my farm anytime.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sierra:
Wow. All I can say is wow.

Ghazzu...you can ambulate to my farm anytime. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the offer.
Never been to Alberta.
My Canadian rambles have been limited to the Maritimes.
My Grandma was from Nova Scotia.

[fergie]

Oh no. That's where my relatives are from.

[Mary in Area 1]

Ghazzu, you are classy, and amazingly patient!

I hope you don't mind that I "outed" you. I just couldn't STAND the inane ramblings of the uneducated (and righteously proud of it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)

[Janet]

I have found Ghazzu's posts to be accurate and useful.

What she says cuncurs with all the vets I use.

[Erin]

Some of y'all need to chill WAY the hell out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's a BB. It's full of advice that may or may not be worth a damn. Take from it what you will, politely disagree with the rest, and then for the love of all things holy, let it go.

When you resort to giving the third degree and demanding a CV from someone who happens to think differently than you, that's when you know you are out of line and should step away from the keyboard before you make an ass of yourself.

[Simkie]

Erin, how come we don't have a "jaw hitting the desk in disbelief" icon? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I've been reading Ghazzu for about 10 years now. She also posts occasionally in rec.eq. Her advice is always very, very good. I would love it if she could ambulate to my barn! When I bought Blush, I did ask Ghazzu if she would pre-purchase the mare for me--unfortunately Suffolk is out of her range, so she recommended another great vet.

I'm surprised at the vitriolic nature of your posts, fergie. Why are you so angry? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[RedMare01]

Things I Have Learned From This Thread

1. Laminitis is bad.
2. Not being a vet and prescribing things over the internet is bad.
3. Being a vet and prescribing things over the internet is bad.
4. Not being a vet and acting like you know what you're talking about is bad.
5. Being a vet and telling people what you know about is bad.
6. You cannot "occasionally" gallop horses.
7. Ambulatory really does mean moving around.
8. All this originated from Nova Scotia.

Sorry guys...it's after 12, guess I should go to bed. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Caitlin

[jetsmom]

fergie and two simple, wouldn't it have been easier to solve it like dog's do and just find a tree to pee on?


The winning quote was "anonymous internet personality, named Ghazzu". And getting meaningful time management tips, since Ghazzu apparently spends too much time on here....PIMPLMAO!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif


And Ghazzu-you really are pretty classy.

[Adelita]

Andie honey, hugs, love, and jingles.

Ghazzu rocks.

Thank you Ghazzu, for the info you've given in the past, you are a class act. If you ever want to move to So. Cali, there's room in Lake Arrowhead. There's only one equine vet on this mountain, pretty scary when she goes on vacation!

[Kit]

I can't believe this thread. Andie, how's your horse doing? Sending you lots of jingles. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Andie235]

I'll give this much to this thread: it does get my mind off of things for a bit! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
There's really no new news...we had vet #4 look last evening and all that really did was make me heavy-hearted because he had us push/pull him outside (right near his stall) where they could see him walk. Well, it made me realize that I hadn't seen him in sunlight in almost a week and it showed me how much he has deteriorated physically over the last 3 wks- dull, hairy coat (despite grooming- and trust me he hates to be groomed but it's all the entertainment I get from him these days!), weight loss from the initial pulling of feed (he's back on feed now) and so much muscle tone loss.
Here's a beautiful chestnut with 4 white socks and a blaze that normally lights up the hunter ring and wins his hacks and I doubt anyone who saw him now would recognize him.

[JB]

I'm sorry to hear that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Have you had new xrays taken? I don't recall if you have, since the first ones. If there is still rotation (I'm assuming there is), then that has GOT to be halted and fixed, and that IMHO means pulling the shoes and getting and keeping the heels down and getting and keeping the toes back. Essentially going back to Tree's initial post on this on page 1. Do you have pictures of his feet? What feed is he going back on? What was he on (is it the same?) before, and what has he been on for the last 3 weeks?

[LMH]

Wow....while it has been pointed out that Ghazzu is handling things beautifully, I am now confused on two things:

1)is iced water good or bad for laminitis? and why or why not? any vet or armchair vet is free to reply

2) who IS this fergie person and why is she personally attacking Ghazzu?

[tle]

I can't answer #1, but interested to hear replies.

But #2 seems to be a lady named Susan who recently had a bad head injury (just ask her) at an event and as for why she's personally attacking Ghazzu... well, it seems that she enjoys personally attacking people. In some cases, she'll do a quick 180 for whatever reason (well thoughtout reply from someone with obviously more knowledge than her like RAyers or personal photos like Deltawave). But mostly I find that she enjoys the personal attacks (has been attacking me for a while now) all the while claiming superior horse knowledge and class... both of which I question.

Does that help?

[Truckdobe]

WOW, one night w/out internet access and 5 pages get added!!??

Andie... My girl looked AWFUL! She was fine for about 6 wks, from onset, then went downhill fast. Dull coated rack of bones, no muscle tone; and she wasn't stalled during any of it... When we took all the meds away, her hair FELL OUT. While she was in the worst of the abcessing pain, she ate (LOTS), but was unable to gain an ounce until the pain subsided.

I hope your tests are neg., when the pain was at its' worst, she looked like she may have had neuro problems b/c she was having such a hard time moving around. Most noticeably when she first got up, after several steps she was much better.

Good luck & lots of JINGLES!!!

[Posting Trot]

I can't believe someone actually used "upidstay."

Ghazzu, you are one patient person. I've always found your posts really informative.

Andie, I just wanted to say that serious lameness problems can look neurological even if there is nothing neurological going on. But it's definitely worth checking out, and drawing blood for an EPM test might be worth it.

(FWIW, when my horse had lyme she was also slightly lame and backsore, and that made her "fail" the spin test--although she could still walk downhill with her head up and resisted the tail pull well. So the vet blood tested her for EPM and test came back negative. It was a relief).

But, has your horse been tested for lyme? It's possible that you mentioned this somewhere earlier in the thread and I missed it while I was navigating around all the train-wrecks.

Good luck. It sounds like you've really been on top of this and doing whatever you can for your horse.

[Andie235]

Posting Trot-
Yes, he is being tested for Lyme. We're waiting on that. We seem to be doing a lot of waiting. We're also re-testing for Cushing's.
JB- My horse has the worst front feet- no heel to speak of and a toe that can't be cut back anymore without injuring him. Barefoot right now is not an option.
We took more xrays a week ago.

[JB]

Andie, might I offer up that rather than "no heel", the heels are actually underrun and very LONG. I know that sounds contradictory, but it's very unusual for a horse to have "no heel" unless they were purposefully chopped off. Can you post pictures? I'd be willing to bet that her hoof form is a cause of continued pain, and/or abcesses in the making. What did the most recent xrays show as compared to the initial ones?

[Sandbarhorse]

Fergie and Two Simple, please stop attacking Ghazzu. UNlike you two, she's been on the forums for a long time and has already proven her advice worthy of at least considering.

If I were Andie, I'd be damned pissed about the whole atmosphere of this thread. I'm pretty sure she's just looking for input, ideas and support that she can discuss with the Four Vets she's got treating her horse.

Ghazzu, I admire your patience with the nonsense and I really hope you won't hesitate to comment, for Andie's sake.

FWIW, my vets have always trusted me to keep oral banamine, bute, dex and albuterol around for different reasons. They know that I am reluctant to use them without good reason and will not hesitate to contact them if it is not the typical situation they were given for, before giving.

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
Posting Trot-
Yes, he is being tested for Lyme. We're waiting on that. We seem to be doing a lot of waiting. We're also re-testing for Cushing's.
JB- My horse has the worst front feet- no heel to speak of and a toe that can't be cut back anymore without injuring him. Barefoot right now is not an option.
We took more xrays a week ago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please, PLEASE post pics of his fronts and hinds even if its only lateral views of each. I'm sure that unless he'll lay down, asking him to stand on 3 feet would be too much to get sole views.

As far as barefoot not being an option, don't be too sure. I'm saying this as someone who knows barefoot is often a last resort and by the time it is even considered, there may not be much left to work with inside the hooves or horse. Working to prevent further bone loss (coffin bone remodeling, particularly at the tip), is the goal. The amount of rotation was slight. That can change quickly if the coffin bone tip continues to rest on the sole. The process is speeded along if the bone remains tipped and the horse feels like it can move.

I would urge you to atleast take a look at the case studies in naturalhorsetrim.com/ and see how your horse compares to those.

Tree

[Andie235]

I'm sorry- you're right- it's not that he doesn't have any heels, it's just the expression and it's misleading. I will try and remember to take my camera in to take pictures.
I trust my farrier with my horse's life- I trust in what he says to the fullest extent. Right now, he wants to keep his shoes on.
This man has kept my horse together for the past 5 yrs- he's a micacle worker and a saint. His track record is admirable to say the least. I think that I will still ask him his opinion on taking is shoes off later, though.

[Tree]

I respect that as his owner, you are responsible for choosing who you want to treat him. Talk to your farrier about his experiences with such cases and the results. I just don't want you to set him on a pedestal because he's human like the rest of us. I am sure he'll do his best. Do your homework though. You're a team player too.

Tree

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
I'm sorry- you're right- it's not that he doesn't have any heels, it's just the expression and it's misleading. I will try and remember to take my camera in to take pictures.
I trust my farrier with my horse's life- I trust in what he says to the fullest extent. Right now, he wants to keep his shoes on.
This man has kept my horse together for the past 5 yrs- he's a micacle worker and a saint. His track record is admirable to say the least. I think that I will still ask him his opinion on taking is shoes off later, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Yep and he's also one team member in the panel of professionals this owner has put her trust into. I'm sure she doesn't need you telling her "watch out, he might screw up so you better do your homework and think about finding a different farrier." Gosh people, don't you ever let up??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Consider this, there are 4 vets involved and 1 farrier. Seems like one "team" is outnumbered. What's the saying about putting your eggs all into one basket?

My point was to bring attention to the fact that only ONE farrier IS involved.

Get over yourself, wouldja?

Tree

[pegasus209]

wow... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Andie, just wanted you to know I am still jingling for your boy and sending cyber hugs! Hope he is feeling a little better today.

Ghazzu, you can vet my horses anytime! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Tree, there is nothing to get over. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beg to differ.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
I just cannot understand why people INSIST that whatever farrier or vet has been inlisted in treating the horse is an incompetent idiot and you should find a NEW vet or farrier IMMEDIATELY. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Insist? You were just drilling Ghazzu yesterday for being here on this forum and learned that she IS a licensed practicing Vet.

There is a lot of old info about hoofcare that helps to support the idea that navicular cannot be cured, that once a horse founders, it'll do so chronically and Farriery that has people believing that their horses will "always need shoes".

Unless horseowners actively become better informed, they'll be inclined to believe the above bunk. There's more bunk but in an effort to keep this short and to the point, others can add to the list.

Andie may or may not have been responsible for getting the 2nd, 3rd and 4th vet.

Being a more pro-active horse owner, if I had to rely on a farrier to get my horse through something, I would definitely want to know his experiences with such cases and success rates. I'd want to know these things to feel better about the care my horse will be getting. If I find he has never dealt with such a case, then I'll have to know if he feels confident enough to try or if there are mentors he can consult with who DO have experiences with such things.
The bottom line is that I want the odds stacked in FAVOR for the horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
I've read that on so many threads over and over and over and over and....

If it is painfully obvious that the vet of farrier is screwin up big time, then yeah, you should look for another. But when the guy clearly has the complete trust of the owner, has an excellent track record, and has done nothing wrong, why do people inside that the owner trash him anyway and find a new one?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a poster here, I reflect my own experiences gained from having had horses for the past 35 years. I used to blindly trust a lot of professionals but life has taught me that's not always wise to do. I'm not as naive as I once was and have learned that professionals are humans too and don't know all there is to know. They know only what THEY know. I don't even like the term, "expert". There is no such thing, IMO. This is where my comment about not putting the farrier up on a pedestal came from. Rather than "farrier", one could plug in anybody they want to in that slot. Blind faith is dangerous. There was no place where I said she should dump the one she has now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
I just don't understand this philosophy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try some empathy.

Tree

[Truckdobe]

I think the point is to educate yourself as much as possible rather than blindly following the professionals.

I don't personally know anyone with a disease or illness (diabetes, cancer, ideopathic thromboctytapenia?) that doesn't do as much research as they can and look at all options available, INCLUDING second opinions.

I would also be hesitant to allow only 1 professional to voice his/her opinion. If we have more than 1 vet, why not more than 1 farrier?

And what is the harm in the OP gaining as much knowledge, from as many sources, as possible??

My vet saved my horse's life, dealing with her initial infection, but was out of his league with her founder. He's a nice guy and I'll still use his services, but he doesn't have the time or inclination to become a founder specialist, for that I had to look elsewhere.

My farrier is no longer "my" farrier as he refused to even consider discussing alternatives. He's another nice guy, we still bump into each other and get along fine, he just doesn't trim my horses anymore, he does still ask about them often.

[Lookout]

Andie, good luck with your boy and let us know the results of any further tests you get. I'm curious as to your comment that your farrier has held your boy "together" for the past 5 years. That sounds like there may be a lot of unadressed foot issues. Which is just to say that maybe there really are issues there that could be addressed to help him with the founder, etc. If you can get any pictures at all, that will be really helpful.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
I trust my farrier with my horse's life- I trust in what he says to the fullest extent. Right now, he wants to keep his shoes on.
This man has kept my horse together for the past 5 yrs- he's a micacle worker and a saint. His track record is admirable to say the least. I think that I will still ask him his opinion on taking is shoes off later, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
Yes, I too believe that 2nd opinions can be invaluable. I also believe that a person should be as educated as possible. But I do have a problem with the implication that an owner should dump the professional expert who is on the case, doing a great job, and has no reason to be doubted. If this is NOT your implication, then you need to clarify. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, it's difficult to clarify something that was not implied. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The horse's feet are currently in obvious trouble but there's been no farrier change.

Tree

[jetsmom]

Two simple-

note to self- In order to avoid putting your foot in your mouth any further, before slamming on a poster about spending too much time on the internet, compare the # of posts you've done in 10 days (about 9 per day ...98 posts in 10 days) with that of the poster you are slamming on...Ghazzu less than 1.75 per day ...approx 3416 posts in approx 2035 days.)

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
1. The clarification I requested was - did you imply that the original poster should get a new farrier? Yes or no? You said no, you did not imply such. Good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it might be "good" for you, Two, is it good for the horse? This post originated over the owner's concern over her horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
2. Now we move onto your next quote "The horse's feet are currently in obvious trouble but there's been no farrier change." So now we are back to implying that the poster should change farriers because the horse's feet are in obvious trouble. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was stating the obvious facts based on what the owner has posted.

Question: Who is "we"?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
So what are you really trying to say? That this person should get a second opinion, or that this person should change farriers? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's see how Andie interprets it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
If you are *trying* to say that this person should get a 2nd opinion, I agree with you 110%. If you are suggesting this person up and quit with their current farrier, then I would disagree with that statement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will not venture to guess but will wait and see what Andie decides to do. She's in the driver's seat.

Tree

[Andie235]

I AM consulting another farrier...so to speak. My vet is talking to an equine podiatrist tonight (sent him the xrays) who was a farrier BEFORE he became a vet, before he decided to specialize in podiatry.
It looks like we're going to go ahead and treat him with Marquis. As my BM put it- it can't hurt. At this point, I'm desperate, $700 desperate.

[prince and ponies]

Andie235 you have a PM

[swampgum]

Two Simple--There is a big difference between inflammation from an injury and laminitis. The reason ice is perscribed for an injury is to stop bleeding. Blood vessels have been ruptured and hence blood flows into the surrounding area of the injury along with sinovial fluid in some cases . This is what is causing the swelling. Ice is essential for the first 48 hours to stem this flow and prevent build-up(swelling). After 48 hours you need to turn to heat packs. Heat increases circulation which in turn induces healing. Laminitis is a totally different scenario. With laminitis the initial swelling is within the blood vessels. Not the blood vessels rupturing . Bleeding occurs later as a result of the swelling blood vessels tearing the surrounding laminae apart which then starts the bleeding. --That is why hot water is required--to reduce the swelling of the blood vessells in the first place to prevent the inevitable tearing which leads to bleeding. Like locking the stable door before the horse bolts--not after the horse bolts. Regarding the epsom salts. This is one of natures greatest poultices and soothers. Sure as a previous poster said it dries out hooves but only after prolonged use. The pro's far outweigh the cons by using it to greatly help alleviate a horses suffering . If I was a horse suffering from laminitis I would prefer the benefits of having my feet soaked in hot water with epsom salts than worrying about the chances of getting dry hooves !!

[Tree]

While we're talking about Epsom salts, I learned something I never knew about it. My vet was here to euth an old horse and evidently had a bad bottle of the narcotic used for euthanasia (a clear irredesent pink fluid). So after the first injection the mare was not phased. My vet had only enough left for one more dose and once that was in the mare, she reacted as she should have from the first injection. Trouble was, she wasn't dying. She was down and out of it (unconscious) but not dying. As my vet was getting ready to make a 25 min drive to pick up more she suddenly stopped and turned to ask if I had epsom salts and instructed me to dilute a heavy amount in hot water and bring it to her. This is what we were able to use to finish the mare's journey to the rainbow bridge. My vet said it would burn as it passed through her veins but since she was still unconscious, I wasn't worried about her feeling anything.

I was so glad my vet had the mind to think of this because we don't own any guns and I just didn't want to see the mare come to after being overdosed with a narcotic.

Another lesson learned was to have more on hand in case we got a bad bottle again.

Has that ever happened to anyone else before?

Tree

[serena]

Honestly, I couldn't make it past pg 4 with all the squabbling, so I don't know what the updates are. But I wanted to share my experience, which may or may not mean a darn thing!!

My mare had/has laminitis from probable PHF. The laminitis started when she was at the hospital and they treated her by initially icing her feet while she was down, taping styroform to her feet once the icing became to difficult when she started standing more and she was treated with bute and aspirin. She was on the bute and aspirin for another week after she left the clinic for a total of 3 weeks. When she was home, she staggered about and I freaked, thinking neuroligical. She had lost a lot of weight and muscle from being sick. As she started to pick up, she got stronger but even at about 2 months afetr being ill she's still not 100%, but improving everyday.

Don't know if this applies to you or not, but good luck!

[Andie235]

AM update- So yesterday we decided to drag him out of his stall and make him move around a bit. He had been out the day before for the 2 vets to look at him and we really had to haul on his head and encourage him from behind to make him go. My friend and I go to take him out and are ready to be physical when he kind of shuffled out of his stall without any encouragement from behind.
We walked a half circit around the barn, both up by his head and a loop in the lead before he started to visibly tire. So I stood in the sun with him for about 5 min before going the rest of the way back to his stall.
We're going to start him on Marquis today. I really don't know if this is EPM, but we've got to try something and my vet(s) and I had a lengthy discussion and decided that MArquis was safe (as opposed to Navigator and some other meds) and won't 'hurt' him to try.
If it works, we should start to see an improvement (body condition, balance) in about a week and a half.

[Andie235]

Ok, so the Marquis arrived yesterday (had to cut a $825 check to the clinic to pay for that and a couple other drugs!). We started him on it yesterday.
In a moment of financial whimsy and desperation I purchased these Reitsport ice bell boots from Smartpak. After I ordered them I realized I could probably just buy large bells and tape ice bags to them. I'll take them into the barn and show my trainer to see if she thinks it's worth keeping them. Hell, I think I just figured at that point what's another $50? *groan....*

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
at that point what's another $50? *groan....* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know the feeling... I've not seen those boots but they sound interesting - will have to go look them up.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Two Simple--There is a big difference between inflammation from an injury and laminitis. The reason ice is perscribed for an injury is to stop bleeding. Blood vessels have been ruptured and hence blood flows into the surrounding area of the injury along with sinovial fluid in some cases . This is what is causing the swelling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
PLEASE check your sources.

If you have internal bleeding you have a bruise, which may or may not (usually not) be associated with swelling.

If you have leaking synovial fluid you have ruptured the joint sack which is a MAJOR injury, but you are unlikely to have significant swelling.


In MOST cases, inflamation (edema) is caused by an accumpulation of LYMPH cells, which is neither blood nor synovial fluid (though the lymph fluid is similar to blood, without the blood cells). Lymph cells seep among the regular cells, it isn't inside "blood vessels" like blood, so there is nothing to rupture.

Lymph cells DO accumulate at the site of an injury where they "repair" damaged cells. But once they have done their repair, they are sometimes slow to leave the area, as there is no heart pumping them.

Icing (or cold water), does help to disperse the lymph cells, which reduces the swelling.

Heat does tend to increase circulation, but it does NOT generally reduce inflamation.

While there are occasional exceptions, as a general rule, you should not apply heat until AFTER the swelling has been reduced.

[Andie235]

I got a call from my trainer this AM to inform me that his feet were hotter than they've been and that he wouldn't go for a mini-walk (he had for the past 2 days).
My vet apparently told my trainer that he spoke to the equine podiatrist and the vet's coming out this afternoon to meet with my farrier to discuss options. My trainer, however, did not ask him what the podiatrist said, so I'm still left in limbo until this afternoon. I tried calling my vet, but he's in surgery.
This is just so exausting. I don't know what's going to happen and I don't know how much longer he can go on like this...this is not what I want for my boy!

[Tree]

Thanks for the continued updates, Andie.

Waiting and not knowing is hell.

Tree

[Buffyblue]

Sometimes things seem to get worse before they get better. Hang in there.

[Andie235]

Alright- this is what I heard from my vet through my BM:
The 2nd Cushing's test came back mildly pos. on one of the samples (2 taken 8 hrs apart) so he wants to start Reilly on Pergolide.
He also wants to talk to my farrier and take all 4 shoes off and put this material on that's supposed to encourge frog/heel growth for a few weeks and then put glue-on shoes on.
I hope to know more soon...

[JackieBlue]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tree:


While it might be "good" for you, Two, is it good for the horse? This post originated over the owner's concern over her horse.


Tree </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh MY! PLEASE read what you typed! It applies perfectly to the vast majority of posts you've made in this thread!

Andie, I'm terribly sorry for what you and your boy are going through. I can't imagine your heartache. Hang in there and please keep us updated.

[SunshineGA]

Just made it through page uh 7.

Just want to ask some of you if you understand why there are less and less equine practioners going into practice?

It's because everybody is a freakin' expert, especially horse people.

Do you know how hard it is to treat a horse that has been owner-medicated for a week? God himself couldn't save some of those horses and its always the vet's fault when something turns for the worse.

Just my $0.02.

Oh and Ghazzu, mucho respect for you.

[Tree]

Without including the portion of text I was responding to, you're just taking what I said out of context. Please read for content.

By this time Two was more concerned with her own interpretations of what I'd said to Andie. So, this was not about the horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JackieBlue:
Oh MY! PLEASE read what you typed! It applies perfectly to the vast majority of posts you've made in this thread!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Originally posted by Two Simple:
1. The clarification I requested was - did you imply that the original poster should get a new farrier? Yes or no? You said no, you did not imply such. Good.

Tree's response:
While it might be "good" for you, Two, is it good for the horse? This post originated over the owner's concern over her horse.

[Tree]

I've read the entire thread and found it both informative and entertaining. Being ill at the time, it certainly filled my extra spare time. I found it more interesting than watching daytime soaps too. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SunshineGA:
Just made it through page uh 7.

Just want to ask some of you if you understand why there are less and less equine practioners going into practice? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure there are any less Equine practicioners in the real world. I don't expect to find many of them in here though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SunshineGA:
It's because everybody is a freakin' expert, especially horse people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The longer I live and learn the more I am convinced that there are no experts. I've also learned to be extra cautious of those who claim to be experts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SunshineGA:
Do you know how hard it is to treat a horse that has been owner-medicated for a week? God himself couldn't save some of those horses and its always the vet's fault when something turns for the worse.

Just my $0.02.

Oh and Ghazzu, mucho respect for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over medicated horses: no such thing on this place. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tree

[Janet]

She didn't say "over medicated".
She said "owner medicated".

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Janet:
She didn't say "over medicated".
She said "owner medicated". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


So she did. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Thanks.

So my answer to that statement can be corrected to say that there's no chance of my horses or ponies being owner medicated unless I was directed to do so by a Veterinarian I trusted.

Drugs aren't my first choice for myself or my equines.

Tree

[Andie235]

I don't think this is what Sunshine was implying, but I just wanted to clarify that I did not medicate my horse on my own at all. All drugs/dasages were the reult of vet(s) examinations. (I don't think that's what you were saying, Sunshine, but I wanted to speak up just in case anyone was crious!)
Anyway, we're going to start him opn Pergolide today for the Cuching's. Of course, this isn't going to do anything for his laminitis, but it's the only news I have for now!

[Andie235]

I beleive the thing they wan to put on his feet are the Redden Ultimates. I'll know more tomorrow when my farrier comes, but has anyone used these?

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
I beleive the thing they wan to put on his feet are the Redden Ultimates. I'll know more tomorrow when my farrier comes, but has anyone used these? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No but if they have to be nailed on, he's gonna need to be tranquilized or blocked to stand it.

Tree

[Lookout]

Are these the "banana" or rail shoes? If so I have heard horror stories about them. The horse can never stand level on its fronts so the weight gets transferred to the hinds and the hindquarters become very, very sore.

Would you like to show pictures of his feet for input?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andie235:
I beleive the thing they wan to put on his feet are the Redden Ultimates. I'll know more tomorrow when my farrier comes, but has anyone used these? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Andie235]

Sorry! I keep forgetting to take pictures!

No- whatever they're putting on him (or thinking about putting on him) will be glue-on. Unfortunatly, I will be out of town on business today when the farrier is there, but I'm going to call him and talk to him about what he's thinking.

[Lookout]

I don't think being glue ons precludes them from being the rail or bananas, in fact I think those might be them.

[Ghazzu]

I think the modified ultimates are a glue on with a big honkin' wedge built in to raise the heels.

The bananas are more of a rail shoe.
Fortunately, they seem to be less popular than a few years ago...

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
I think the modified ultimates are a glue on with a big honkin' wedge built in to raise the heels.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, swell. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[LMH]

Lookout you should be aware that many feel if Redden makes it or says it is so, then it is truth.

[Tree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
Lookout you should be aware that many feel if Redden makes it or says it is so, then it is truth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another Guru.

He can appeal to many people because he is a Farrier and Veterinarian and hosts events revolving around Podiatry at his facility in KY.

Tree

[Andie235]

Well, after two weeks of hime not being able to leave his stall, I'm willing to give these a try.

[Andie235]

Just wanted to let you know that no new news. We're putting the Reddens on tomorrow and he'll have them on for 10 days. Supposedly they're supposed to increase sole growth, although I though they were more for releiving pressure on the tendon.
He's looking a little better though- I think the Pergolide is helping.

[Tree]

Andie,

I seriously doubt the Reddens will increase sole production. I am reasonably sure they're designed to relieve pressure off the DDFT's but since DDFT's were not designed to be slack, your horse will alter his shoulder muscles to tighten them up again. You really should take before Redden pics so you can compare later ones to them. Not only talking about hoof pics but full body views too, particularly from each side.

Tree

[Andie235]

The shoes are on and boy, do they look fun!
Actually, he walked pretty well in them. We'll see how he's fairing today after having them on for a while.
On another note, Reilly's seems to have sprouted a boob overnight on Friday. Actually, it's an edema between his front legs about the size of a mango. It's fleshy-firm, but he's not sensitive to it. I calle dmy vet and he said that some horses that are stall bound will get this and not to worry about it. It started to decrease in size yesterday.
Has anyone else seeen this?

[Andie235]

All in all, I have to say I'm thus far encouraged by the Reddens. I thought a day after getting them on he would be really sore, but here we are 2 days later and he seems more willing to 'walk' (stroll) than he has in a while.
The only problem is I think he's got an abcess on his right front frog. His leg is big, though not hot, and he's particularly tender on that foot. My farrier is coming out to look at him today. The thing is, with the Reddens on, you can't get to his foot. So he may have to take them off for a while to treat the abcess and then start over. I don't know- I'll see what he says.

[Sandbarhorse]

Good luck with the farrier today, Andie! I hope he continues to improve. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif