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Sprouty
Feb. 7, 2011, 06:25 AM
Just watched this and before I open my mouth would love to know peoples views.

http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2011/02/07/totilas-presented-under-new-rider

What a massive load of pressure for horse and rider and I think it shows

suzy
Feb. 7, 2011, 08:23 AM
Considering how little time Matthias has had to become acquainted with Toto, I think he does a very nice job. He's a lovely rider and I truly wish him the best. But, I have to admit that I still miss the Edward Gal/Toto partnership. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to seeing Edward competing Toto's full sister.

mbm
Feb. 7, 2011, 09:55 AM
i think totilas is fascinating.... his front end is so expressive but in anything but collected gaits his hind end just is so.... not there. i cant figure out if that is the training or how he is naturally.

i wish Rath well.

Liz
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:07 AM
I like to think part of the "Totilas" magic was the special partnership he had with Edward Gal. I am not quite cynical enough yet to believe just anyone can get on him and come close to reproducing that amazing partnership and those amazing rides. While I certainly do not wish Matthias ill, I can't find it in me to really root for him either.

ToN Farm
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:23 AM
It just goes to show how easy it is to make a slight bobble here and there, no matter how well trained and talented the horse/rider.

I really do think that a real bond has to develop between horse and ride so that it's almost like a telepathy in aiding, if you get my drift.

Phaxxton
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:30 AM
May just be me, but that link was infected for me...

Megaladon
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:31 AM
I really do think that a real bond has to develop between horse and rider so that it's almost like a telepathy in aiding

Agree with this. The pair look very promising and just need time to find their "groove" with each other. :)

Bugs-n-Frodo
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:54 AM
That horse brings tears to my eyes. He is just so expressive and magnificent. I think Matthias is doing a good job... I can't IMAGINE how much pressure he must feel knowing that many people are comparing him to Edward Gal. I miss the partnership between Edward and Toto as well, I think it is sad that it was broken up but, by the same token, I can't hold it against Matthias.

ridgeback
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:54 AM
I think he looks less tense through the neck. Wishing him all the best.

chancellor2
Feb. 7, 2011, 11:43 AM
I think it is a testament to Edward Gal that a rider can get on him in such a short time and ride that horse fairly well. However, the spark that I have seen with Edward Gal is missing.

BaroquePony
Feb. 7, 2011, 12:16 PM
Flame suit on :yes:

I like Rath on Totilas better than I ever did Gal. For a young man that has a bit of a reputation for *choking*, I think Rath stayed focused on what he was doing very well.

It is extremely difficult to take over the ride on any high level horse ... every advanced/world class rider has their own individual technique when it comes down to their unique partnership. It is like the *signature* of a great painter ...

So, unless Rath IS Edward Gal, Rath is going to be retraining a few muscles on Totilas regardless. That is not easy when the horse is trained to such a high level and with such specific aids.

Every specific set of aids commands a very specific reaction and the use of very specific muscles. If Rath intends to ride him more classically (which it looks like he is doing), then he is going to be retraining some muscle sets and some aids. Any muscle set that Rath is retraining, that Gal didn't use, is basically not developed (like a greeen horse), so those muscles are going to tire much more quickly than the muscle sets that both Rath and Gal use/used in a similar manner.

Most of the obvious mistakes I saw looked like a confusion of aids and were corrected immediately. Those mistakes look like they are caused by Rath using his aids differently than Edward Gal did. A couple of times Totilas threw one of his front legs way up in the air during a transition coming into a corner.

I like that Totilas neck is now beginning to show a more refined throatlatch. His neck looks much trimmer and more in balance with the rest of him. It no longer looks like it is becoming *musclebound*.

In the beginning of the video Totilas rear end looks more normal/correct, fluid, engaged and active. He is being ridden up into the bridle softly and actively. He is not tilting his head.

As the test/exhibition ride goes on, it looks like Totilas begins to tire and fall apart a bit. Head tilts and the rear end begins to lose some of the earlier engagement and activity. It looks like he is tiring ... different muscles being used.

Overall it looks like Rath is trying to ride Totilas more from behind than Gal did. If Totilas hocks and hind limbs are still sound, then Rath will be able to develop Totilas more through the back.

That's how I saw it.

More relaxed, but still powerful. Sure, there were some mistakes, but I love seeing Totilas more realxed.

Equibrit
Feb. 7, 2011, 12:40 PM
That was a lot of trotting.

DownYonder
Feb. 7, 2011, 12:59 PM
As the test/exhibition ride goes on, it looks like Totilas begins to tire and fall apart a bit. Head tilts and the rear end begins to lose some of the earlier engagement and activity. It looks like he is tiring ... different muscles being used.

I wonder how much breeding he has been doing the past 30-60 days. Remember he was hardly bred at all when EG had him (other than being collected for frozen once or twice). Breeding takes a toll on a stallion's hocks, stifles, back, etc.

IdahoRider
Feb. 7, 2011, 01:00 PM
More relaxed, but still powerful. Sure, there were some mistakes, but I love seeing Totilas more realxed.
Yes. Exactly this.
Sheilah

raff
Feb. 7, 2011, 02:04 PM
Horizontal curb, tense,short neck yuck.

BaroquePony
Feb. 7, 2011, 03:36 PM
Posted by raff:

Horizontal curb, tense,short neck yuck.

Totilas has always been ridden (at least since Gal had him) with too short of a neck.

I saw the horizontal curb, but Rath's hands look pretty light.

What I do see more of here is what looks like a foundation in RK, complete with the sewing machine trot (typical of Anky style RK), and Rath hasn't had the horse long enough to develop the kind of strength that is showing in the horse right now.

I can't tell if Rath doesn't want to head in that direction and is trying to correct it, or if Rath is just not as agressive of a rider ... which is fine (better even) with me. He seems to be a softer rider. I am giving Rath the benefit of the doubt that he will get this horse moving more from behind.

I don't like tense horse's. I don't think it looks attractive at any level.

Totilas looks more relaxed, and it could be because Rath doesn't do heavy Anky style RK, or he isn't as strong of a rider as Gal, but he wants to do heavy Anky style RK, or it could be because he is trying to develop the back to front connection with this horse and it would be very difficult due to Totilas previous training.

Personally I would love to have seen this horse training with someone like Podjaisky [sic, Podhajsky, I should have spell checked before posting].

mbm
Feb. 7, 2011, 03:52 PM
what i saw was when he was asked for "more" he gave it with his front legs, instead of his hind end.... i wonder if they will be able to retrain him to engage his hind end instead of toss those front around.

it will be interesting to see what the end result it.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 7, 2011, 03:54 PM
Dead wrong! 15 yard penalty. First and ten.

ridgeback
Feb. 7, 2011, 04:01 PM
He's going to be just fine. he looks relaxed and happy:lol:

ToN Farm
Feb. 7, 2011, 04:06 PM
Personally I would love to have seen this horse training with someone like Podjaisky. Please tell me I'm not the only poster that :eek::confused: I mean, really, was Podjaisky really that good? Does anyone really know for sure?

dwblover
Feb. 7, 2011, 04:23 PM
I think this pair has all the potential in the world together. I think Rath was probably a bit surprised with the extra power Toto was giving him in front of a big, big crowd. Toto knows how to show off for the crowd and Rath is going to have to get used to that. I love this horse because he has SO much heart. He just tries his whole heart out for any rider! I just love him. I do wish he had a tad more activity behind, but perhaps that will come.

Enderle
Feb. 7, 2011, 04:30 PM
In the beginning of the video Totilas rear end looks more normal/correct, fluid, engaged and active.
I agree to most of your statement, but above sentence made me watch the video again. I'm definitely not able to see any improvement in hind leg activity - quite the contrary.:no:

They need time. That's for sure.

oldbag
Feb. 7, 2011, 04:57 PM
Well I didn't rate him - but each to his own.

BaroquePony
Feb. 7, 2011, 05:06 PM
Posted by ToN Farm:

Please tell me I'm not the only poster that :eek::confused: I mean, really, was Podjaisky really that good? Does anyone really know for sure?

I saw him ride in Chicago when the SRS toured America for the first time.

He became the Head Bereiter (or whatever the proper term/spelling is) of the SRS for a reason, not because he was some shmuck.

He was very well educated in the ART of riding and training horses.

Yes, he was that good. So are/were other rider's. He wasn't the only smart, trained rider on the planet, but probably in the top 2%, which usually will qualify you for *good*.

caddym
Feb. 7, 2011, 06:03 PM
More relaxed, but still powerful. Sure, there were some mistakes, but I love seeing Totilas more realxed.

You're kidding right?

BaroquePony
Feb. 7, 2011, 06:10 PM
Posted by caddym:

You're kidding right?

Do I sound like I'm kidding? I may have it all wrong, then again, I may have a clue :yes:.

You post your critique, and maybe I'll learn something :yes:.

Perfect Pony
Feb. 7, 2011, 06:17 PM
Do I sound like I'm kidding? I may have it all wrong, then again, I may have a clue :yes:.

You post your critique, and maybe I'll learn something :yes:.

fwiw (which is absolutely nothing really), I agree with you BP. I was not a huge fan of Gal and Totilas, appreciated it for what it was but not a rabid fan. I much prefer Totilas in those moments where his neck looks more relaxed and he is more active behind and less in front.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Feb. 7, 2011, 06:29 PM
They say it takes a year for a rider and horse at that level to find their way together -- and I think Rath is doing an excellent job of riding this POWERHOUSE of a horse. He's been given an incredible opportunity and is working hard to make the best of it. That's really all one can ask. I love seeing Toto, and I'm looking forward to seeing how he develops. He's still a young horse...

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 7, 2011, 07:26 PM
I finally watched the video. Come on man!! If you didnt like Toto's extended trot before[I did], You have to really dislike this. I went back and compared to several with EG. In this vid he is being held up in front and for the first time I see him NOT coming through behind!
This is no indictment of MR. He is still new, the environment is tough as has been said but it so clear his rear end in the extensions isnt even close! He is doing well with the pi/pa but trannys arent nearly as clean.
I think this guy is going to be great with this horse. But. To look at this video and state or imply that he is one upping the master who created this prevously unparrellelled piece of living art cannot be taken seriously.
BTW. Podjaisky was chosen because he was a signifigantly better politition than any of the other choices.

nhwr
Feb. 7, 2011, 08:14 PM
You have to consider the context.

It was a stallion presentation, not a competition. The primary purpose of these presentations is to "wow" mare owners for the coming breeding season. Because of this, riders push the envelop and mistakes are generally tolerated if things get a little out of hand.

Bearing that in mind, I thought the horse was under-ridden. Specifically I too thought the p/p transitions lost engagement and found the canter work lacking compared to what I have seen from him before.

Rath has stones for being wiling to put himself out there for comparisons to be made :yes:
I am hoping for more as he and Totilas get to know each other better.

BaroquePony
Feb. 7, 2011, 08:26 PM
Posted by Don Raphaelo Rollkurista:

In this vid he is being held up in front and for the first time I see him NOT coming through behind!

At the extended trot ....

Yes, I saw exactly what you are talking about. Really crammmed neck, and front legs going really far out in front ... way beyond the *vertical line* of the face ... way beyond ... and it looked like Rath totally lost the rear end during the extension.

There is another one that looks much better elsewhere on the tape, I believe.

But what I did notice was that Totilas looks like his toe is actually pointing toward where it is going to land, rather than being flung out there like when he was under Gall.

katarine
Feb. 7, 2011, 08:40 PM
BP I often agree with you but this time, I'll have to disagree. I agree that he worsened as he tired but that last piaffe was not pretty in any way, and I saw way too much tension throughout. Not electric, tense.

ridgeback
Feb. 7, 2011, 08:52 PM
You're kidding right?

I'm beginning to think you have no idea what you are looking at you just follow Theo and canyon oak:lol::yes:

ridgeback
Feb. 7, 2011, 08:56 PM
I finally watched the video. Come on man!! If you didnt like Toto's extended trot before[I did], You have to really dislike this. I went back and compared to several with EG. In this vid he is being held up in front and for the first time I see him NOT coming through behind!
This is no indictment of MR. He is still new, the environment is tough as has been said but it so clear his rear end in the extensions isnt even close! He is doing well with the pi/pa but trannys arent nearly as clean.
I think this guy is going to be great with this horse. But. To look at this video and state or imply that he is one upping the master who created this prevously unparrellelled piece of living art cannot be taken seriously.
BTW. Podjaisky was chosen because he was a signifigantly better politition than any of the other choices.

Come on Man he didn't come through all that great with Edward...he's just not going to but he's still a great horse. By the way in this video(that might change in competition) he's way more relaxed through the neck and poll. It's not about one rider being better then the other the fact is Rath has the horse lets not beat the shit out of him every time he rides the horse. :eek:

P.S. Let me first say I am a fan of Edward Gal's and I understand many Dressage trainers tend to have inflated egos but lets make one thing clear Toto was born with that movement. It is quite funny to me how many dressage riders think they create the horse maybe you can make average ones better but give me a break this horse is going to create any rider that sits on him. I mean seriously folks Gal is awesome but there are several riders had they gotten Toto instead of Gal would have had the same success because the HORSE is the real star here....

ToN Farm
Feb. 7, 2011, 09:29 PM
but lets make one thing clear Toto was born with that movement.
Very true, and only minor things can be changed. There are those of the classical camp that think/wish MR will be able to present the look they want and improve the extended trot, but I think this horse is what he is. You see in this video how just a little giving away of the connection in the extended trot caused a bobble (I think a canter stride?). He isn't ever going to have those long floating kinds of extensions like Rocher, for example. He will never have that long up and open neck carriage that is so cherished by many. It can't happen, no matter who is in the saddle. Just what I think.

SanJacMonument
Feb. 7, 2011, 09:34 PM
Edward and Tortillas will be a hard
act to follow!

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:15 PM
Flame suit on :yes:

I like Rath on Totilas better than I ever did Gal. For a young man that has a bit of a reputation for *choking*, I think Rath stayed focused on what he was doing very well.

It is extremely difficult to take over the ride on any high level horse ... every advanced/world class rider has their own individual technique when it comes down to their unique partnership. It is like the *signature* of a great painter ...

So, unless Rath IS Edward Gal, Rath is going to be retraining a few muscles on Totilas regardless. That is not easy when the horse is trained to such a high level and with such specific aids.

Every specific set of aids commands a very specific reaction and the use of very specific muscles. If Rath intends to ride him more classically (which it looks like he is doing), then he is going to be retraining some muscle sets and some aids. Any muscle set that Rath is retraining, that Gal didn't use, is basically not developed (like a greeen horse), so those muscles are going to tire much more quickly than the muscle sets that both Rath and Gal use/used in a similar manner.

Most of the obvious mistakes I saw looked like a confusion of aids and were corrected immediately. Those mistakes look like they are caused by Rath using his aids differently than Edward Gal did. A couple of times Totilas threw one of his front legs way up in the air during a transition coming into a corner.

I like that Totilas neck is now beginning to show a more refined throatlatch. His neck looks much trimmer and more in balance with the rest of him. It no longer looks like it is becoming *musclebound*.

In the beginning of the video Totilas rear end looks more normal/correct, fluid, engaged and active. He is being ridden up into the bridle softly and actively. He is not tilting his head.

As the test/exhibition ride goes on, it looks like Totilas begins to tire and fall apart a bit. Head tilts and the rear end begins to lose some of the earlier engagement and activity. It looks like he is tiring ... different muscles being used.

Overall it looks like Rath is trying to ride Totilas more from behind than Gal did. If Totilas hocks and hind limbs are still sound, then Rath will be able to develop Totilas more through the back.

That's how I saw it.

More relaxed, but still powerful. Sure, there were some mistakes, but I love seeing Totilas more realxed.



Yea yea!!!! Baroque, how did you know what I was going to say! Well I still gotta say something. Probably being redundant. But anyway, I think the mistakes or bobbles will disappear when Toto and Rath become more familiar with what things should be ignored or not taken as a cue. Like someone swatting at a fly and some stranger "waving" back.


Toto's gaits are phenomenal with either rider. And I saw the performance just the way you described-so if you want to read the rest of my post, just start over on top at the post I quoted from Baroque!

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:19 PM
I wonder how much breeding he has been doing the past 30-60 days. Remember he was hardly bred at all when EG had him (other than being collected for frozen once or twice). Breeding takes a toll on a stallion's hocks, stifles, back, etc.


Yes he did poop out earlier than expected. Maybe should have done a shorter presentation, cutting down on all that passage-ing.

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:32 PM
Quoted from BaroquePony:
Totilas looks more relaxed, and it could be because Rath doesn't do heavy Anky style RK, or he isn't as strong of a rider as Gal, but he wants to do heavy Anky style RK, or it could be because he is trying to develop the back to front connection with this horse and it would be very difficult due to Totilas previous training. /unquote/

I pray Rath isn't doing RK. I really do think that Rath is a softer rider, and I think it's real hard to get the RK out of the horse. It looked to me like Rath got Toto more forward in the beginning with his nose NOT behind the vertical, and his poll high (for a stallion), but as Toto got tired I could see him trying to curl back up. Poor Toto, learned all that collection with RK, now has to relearn the honest way without the gimmick

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:35 PM
what i saw was when he was asked for "more" he gave it with his front legs, instead of his hind end.... i wonder if they will be able to retrain him to engage his hind end instead of toss those front around.

it will be interesting to see what the end result it.

Yes, well most of know how hard it is to get a "behind the bit" horse to work correctly.....give me a stargazer anytime!

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:38 PM
Please tell me I'm not the only poster that :eek::confused: I mean, really, was Podjaisky really that good? Does anyone really know for sure?

I think he looked pretty good-his horses were short coupled and tended to work off their hiney or collect naturally.

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:47 PM
I finally watched the video. Come on man!! If you didnt like Toto's extended trot before[I did], You have to really dislike this. I went back and compared to several with EG. In this vid he is being held up in front and for the first time I see him NOT coming through behind!
This is no indictment of MR. He is still new, the environment is tough as has been said but it so clear his rear end in the extensions isnt even close! He is doing well with the pi/pa but trannys arent nearly as clean.
I think this guy is going to be great with this horse. But. To look at this video and state or imply that he is one upping the master who created this prevously unparrellelled piece of living art cannot be taken seriously.
BTW. Podjaisky was chosen because he was a signifigantly better politition than any of the other choices.


Well my take on that is that if you don't have RK to fall back on, (no pun intended), you are going to see less coming thru from behind, and more freed up in front. I am praying that his new training is working on getting more behind coming thru into a freed up front. That's a pretty hard task, I think.

Inthemiddle
Feb. 7, 2011, 10:59 PM
If you can read German you will notice that many people in Germany were very disappointed about the presentation.

There is also a new version of the show of MR and Totilas on ReiterRevue (which was edited to remove the flaws)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8umYhhmtAA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL




ich muss sagen, dass mir nach wie vor rath mit diesem pferd nicht gefällt. das erste, was mir einfällt, wenn ich das video sehe ist "maschine". das pferd hat nichts mehr von seinem ausdruck und anmut und seiner ruhe, die er in letzer zeit unter gal trotz der abartigen mechanik doch gefunden hatte. trotz dem gestrampel wirkte es mit gal irgendwann locker und leicht, harmonisch (anfangs ja nicht so). jetzt wirkt totilas auf mich aufgezogen und verspannt. ich finde, dass er von rath immernoch zu hoch oben festgestellt ist, wie rath das leider bei anderen pferden auch macht. dadurch fängt er in der vorhand richtig an zu "rollen". fast wie die isis, wenn sie ne galopprolle in den tölt schmeißen:rolleyes:

Carol Ames
Feb. 7, 2011, 11:02 PM
[quote=ToN Farm;5411062]Please tell me I'm not the only poster that :eek::confused: I mean, really, was Podjaisky really that good? Does anyone really know for sureCol. Podhaisky always rode with JOY;) and EASE:winkgrin:, both his and his horses:cool:Eath looks understandably tense:o and tentative:sadsmile: They both look exhausted and relieved at the end; I know I was just watching!:yes::lol:

Carol Ames
Feb. 7, 2011, 11:39 PM
Where to begin? the obvious:( tension of horse and rider, unevenness behind, resulting in hopping/ stabbing movement behind; short short:eek: neck tight :no:throat latch, I wonder how well he can breathe like that You don''''''t have to go back to Podhasky go to Klimke , Kyra Kykland and Matador; I'm sure there are others; find a performance of the SRS; the changes were unlevel, not smooth; I thought often " I wonder how he jumps:lol:











i would like to see more lateral work, zig zags would definitely shown the level thoroughness/ connection, both lacking IMHO

betonbill
Feb. 8, 2011, 12:06 AM
The magic wasn't there for me. Front end doing one thing, back end another. Toto didn't seem together. He looked like just another nice horse to me, not a 90 percenter.

alicen
Feb. 8, 2011, 06:30 AM
And how many of you have actually seen Podhajsky (correct spelling) ride a Grand Prix test?

Peace
Feb. 8, 2011, 07:13 AM
More open and relaxed in the poll and neck. Wishing them well.

welshrider
Feb. 8, 2011, 08:16 AM
went to open link and spyware warning popped up.

ToN Farm
Feb. 8, 2011, 08:23 AM
And how many of you have actually seen Podhajsky (correct spelling) ride a Grand Prix test? Probably none, because I don't think he has. Even though it takes the thread a tad off course, I felt a need to comment on Baroque Pony's reply that she would like to see Podhajsky ride Totilas. I do not think that the riders of the SRS, even the past or present heads, necessarily are better riders than the current pros out there in the big ring. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that I think most are not. Kottas, Hoyos, Mikolka, and a few like that, maybe. But I don't think even they have a competition show record at GP, do they? Riding 15.1 short strided Lipp's day in day out cannot prepare a rider for the talent it takes to ride a horse like Totilas. This top competitive riders like Gal ride multiple big movers all through their riding life. I think they are likely far better riders than those riding at SRS. That's what prompted my reply about Podhajsky.

ASB Stars
Feb. 8, 2011, 08:35 AM
Podhajsky was a successful Olympic competitor, prior to becoming the Director of the SRS. I revere his methods, but I do wonder what he would say about modern competitions, and the horses that are competitive at that level. Lips often show great range of motion in front, not a la Toto, but some elevation.

I am really sick of hearing comments about Totos hind end, however. If he trotted behind as he does in front, you folks would be carrying on about how he moves like a hackney pony. There is no winning with some folks.

Of course, those same folks won't be winning in the ring against this phenomenon, either. :winkgrin:

shalomypony
Feb. 8, 2011, 08:37 AM
May just be me, but that link was infected for me...

Me too.

Quibbler
Feb. 8, 2011, 08:47 AM
I personally like what Rath is trying to do with the horse. It looks like he wants to lessen the flamboyance of the front legs and getting him more active in the hind end, and that's a good start for this horse. Toto is not where he needs to be yet, and it tends to fall apart in the extensions (also when he's tired), but I think the two of them have a promising start.

I will say that he (appears) to be under-ridden right not, but I have never ridden GP and am going off what my eye is telling me, and perhaps Rath wants to work on the connection before pushing him more, which is understandable. The pair is in progress right now, and it's hard to judge them against Gal, who spent a far longer time riding Toto.

Different? Yes. Better? Time will tell.

suzy
Feb. 8, 2011, 09:12 AM
I saw Podhajsky ride during the SRS's first tour of the U.S. Yes, he was a lovely rider. Was he the best rider/trainer the SRS had to offer? Probably not. His biggest claim to fame (arguably) was getting the U.S. Army to save the school and the horses, and that *is* significant.

About 30 years ago, I spoke at length with one of General Patton's granddaughters about the SRS and Patton's rescuing the horses during WWII. She confirmed what another poster on this thread said regarding Podhajsky being a politician, and her comments were meant in a positive way. Patton was not nearly as psyched about rescuing the Lipizzans as Disney's movie would lead one to believe. However, Podhajsky was a very articulate and convincing personality and was a huge force behind Patton's deciding to evacuate them to a safe place. He also gained further recognition by writing several very good books on training that his wife translated for him.

As far as Rath and Toto...I'm not sure that it will ever be quite the same as the Gal/Toto partnership, but I think some of you are being terribly harsh and not giving him a chance. He's only been riding the horse for a couple of months.

nhwr
Feb. 8, 2011, 09:47 AM
I think the thing that makes me sad about this change for Totilas is aptly demonstrated by this outing. It is more than the fact that Gal isn't riding him anymore.

Rath will necessarily have to sacrifice the needs of his partnership with the horse to the needs of his partnership with Schockemöhle. This video shows that clearly. They were being shown at PS's stallion presentation for the purposes of marketing him (Totilas) to mare owners regardless of whether they as a team were ready or not. That wouldn't be happening if his primary focus was competition. I think given time Rath probably could do a good job with the horse. But I wonder if he will really ever get the chance. And at what cost to the horse?

Sorry to be Debbie Downer but I just keep thinking of Poetin :no:

sanctuaryfarm
Feb. 8, 2011, 09:55 AM
He cranks his tail, I did not see that at WEG with EG! Will not get a 10 on harmony.

ridgeback
Feb. 8, 2011, 10:07 AM
He cranks his tail, I did not see that at WEG with EG! Will not get a 10 on harmony.

Because you wear rose colored glasses when it comes to Gal:lol::lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8zWMDb5pQk

44 seconds in(even before) no different. many cranks of the tail with Gal not to mention popping into the canter:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

netg
Feb. 8, 2011, 10:40 AM
I remember when I first saw Gal and Toto they had confusion at transitions. It seems to me Toto looks (looks, I have no knowledge as to whether or not I'm correct!) very eager to please, and anticipates. I don't think the transition issues are at all concerning, given I've seen him have those before, too.

I definitely appreciated at the start of the ride seeing a slight bit more openness in his neck, and an apparent desire to try to make some changes there - but it also looked to me as if he's building muscles on the underside of his neck....

I agree with whoever said no matter how great either rider is, if they are making changes to how Totilas goes, he's going to have to change his musculature. Add to that breeding work, and he's not going to be in tip top shape.

Edward Gal has said in interviews that Totilas' power scared him at first, and he had other people ride him. I imagine feeling Toto "on!" would at least startle Rath. Totally reasonable if you're not used to riding a horse who is such a powerhouse. I think under ridden in that situation doesn't indicate under ridden in daily work necessarily. Edward Gal has also made comments somewhere about working to get him to engage his hind end. I did feel the extended trot wasn't as good as what he's been doing with Gal... but then, I especially felt toward the end as if his back legs weren't going as well at all. I don't care that the back legs aren't as active as the front (not physically possible) but do care that they seemed to me like they weren't very active overall.

Honestly, to me, the lack of activity in back looked like something which should include careful inspection from bodyworkers, not even about the riding. Most likely it's more due to exhaustion than anything, but it just seemed like the kind of signs I've seen in other (lesser) horses with something out of whack.

Bethe Mounce
Feb. 8, 2011, 10:55 AM
Despite whatever bobbles were made, rider induced or not, Totilas is a horse of a lifetime and Matthias will need time to develop his relationship with the horse. Edward and Totilas were fabulous together. Matthias is young, his inexperience will show, but how lucky he is to be on this horse at the tender young age of 26!!!! I thought the horse looked more fluid and not so mechanical as I have seen in other videos. Good luck Matthias, I hope the world dressage community will be able to enjoy your journey with this horse with you!

mbm
Feb. 8, 2011, 11:18 AM
Probably none, because I don't think he has. Even though it takes the thread a tad off course, I felt a need to comment on Baroque Pony's reply that she would like to see Podhajsky ride Totilas. I do not think that the riders of the SRS, even the past or present heads, necessarily are better riders than the current pros out there in the big ring. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that I think most are not. Kottas, Hoyos, Mikolka, and a few like that, maybe. But I don't think even they have a competition show record at GP, do they? Riding 15.1 short strided Lipp's day in day out cannot prepare a rider for the talent it takes to ride a horse like Totilas. This top competitive riders like Gal ride multiple big movers all through their riding life. I think they are likely far better riders than those riding at SRS. That's what prompted my reply about Podhajsky.


http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/po/alois-podhajsky-1.html

BaroquePony
Feb. 8, 2011, 11:21 AM
Dial-up here :lol: loading tapes takes time ... and sometimes they all jam up.

I want to correct something I mentioned earlier, ... under Gal Totilas is pointing his front toes to where they are going to land (no toe flipping like I thought had been happening, sorry). I needed to go back and look at a tape of Gal. But man, those front legs are way out there and there is no lenghtening of the neck at all, not that I can see. On any of his tapes. Maybe a bit on some, but not much.

Totilas neck stays in one postion throughtout almost everything.


WDM Munich 2010 Edward Gal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gWRams5bVk&feature=related


I never said Rath didn't look tense :rolleyes:, and Totilas with him, but Rath does not use his aids/body the way Gal does. Rath's *tense* strikes me as nerves (equating with stiffening of his aids or just mushy aids). Gal, to my eye, has the knowledge and abilty to use what I call, the *hand-hip connection* (Rath seems to not be using a strong hand-hip connection, at least most of the time, if he uses it at all it seems fairly light) .

Gal rides with a heavy, steady hand-hip connection from what I can see. Gal knows how to put the entire weight of his body into *closing his hand* when he wants to. That allows him a huge amount of force going into the reins when he wants it to. His bit-hand-elbow-shoulder-hip line is excellent and effective and elegant, and he can, and does, put the weight of his torso into his hand (and Totilas bits) without looking like he is doing much .... most of the time.

What I don't see is Gal using his lower leg very effectively. I see that a lot in modern competitive dressage, and I grew up learning that was incorrect.

Nor do I see Totilas using his hind legs and limbs correctly.

So, I conclude that because Gal doesn't use his leg correctly, Totilas does not use his correctly either. Simple as that. Effects the whole body of the horse.

Hind toes hardly get out of the dirt on the piaffes under Gal on the Munich tape. There are two areas where Totilas actually knucles over on one hind fetlock in, I believe, the passage or the trot. That is NOT good. I think one of those 'baubbles' is between 6:00 and 6:20.

Totilas under Gall looks to me more stiff than tense, but I equate the two in almost the same way.

oldbag
Feb. 8, 2011, 12:51 PM
Dial-up here :lol: loading tapes takes time ... and sometimes they all jam up.



What I don't see is Gal using his lower leg very effectively. I see that a lot in modern competitive dressage, and I grew up learning that was incorrect.

Nor do I see Totilas using his hind legs and limbs correctly.

So, I conclude that because Gal doesn't use his leg correctly, Totilas does not use his correctly either. Simple as that. Effects the whole body of the horse.

Hind toes hardly get out of the dirt on the piaffes under Gal on the Munich tape. There are two areas where Totilas actually knucles over on one hind fetlock in, I believe, the passage or the trot. That is NOT good. I think one of those 'baubbles' is between 6:00 and 6:20.

Totilas under Gall looks to me more stiff than tense, but I equate the two in almost the same way.

Yeah I was taught to use my lower leg when I was ten! I learned better when I got old. A well trained horse doesn't need lower leg. All it needs is a lengthening of the leg to deepen the rider's seat.

I think you should look again at Tot's piaffe, perhaps not at Munich if it was poor there. His piaffe with Gal earned plenty of tens. With Matt it's covering far too much ground. Not a patch on what he can produce.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 8, 2011, 02:57 PM
Busting on Gal and Toto's piaffe? Quote John MaCanroe " You have got to be kidding me!!!"

raff
Feb. 8, 2011, 03:30 PM
Matt Tot and Ed ,all very chummy up in here aint it ! :lol

BaroquePony
Feb. 8, 2011, 04:01 PM
Posted by oldbag:

Yeah I was taught to use my lower leg when I was ten! I learned better when I got old. A well trained horse doesn't need lower leg. All it needs is a lengthening of the leg to deepen the rider's seat.

That is leg :yes:

BaroquePony
Feb. 8, 2011, 04:12 PM
These tapes are all excellent learning opportunities for all levels of riders.

Also, the more discussion on this type of thing, the better educated everyone becomes about the art and sport of dressage. That makes for a better educated audience, which bodes well for the sport and the horses. And it makes for better educated riders.

Carol Ames
Feb. 8, 2011, 04:20 PM
Rath must have understood that the WHOLE WORLD:lol: was watching him , just waiting for a bobble:eek:

spirithorse
Feb. 8, 2011, 04:20 PM
BaroquePony:

Here Here spot on!

Donella
Feb. 8, 2011, 11:31 PM
I finally watched the video. Come on man!! If you didnt like Toto's extended trot before[I did], You have to really dislike this. I went back and compared to several with EG. In this vid he is being held up in front and for the first time I see him NOT coming through behind!
This is no indictment of MR. He is still new, the environment is tough as has been said but it so clear his rear end in the extensions isnt even close! He is doing well with the pi/pa but trannys arent nearly as clean.
I think this guy is going to be great with this horse. But. To look at this video and state or imply that he is one upping the master who created this prevously unparrellelled piece of living art cannot be taken seriously.
BTW. Podjaisky was chosen because he was a signifigantly better politition than any of the other choices.


AMEN!

MR states he is still learning to RIDE Toto. And he will, I am sure, count himself blessed if he can eventually do that to the same level Edward did. But to RETRAIN him? Retrain the best dressage horse that has ever lived?! Retrain 92 percent ?? Give me a freaking break people.

barnworkbeatshousework
Feb. 9, 2011, 01:31 AM
I like to think part of the "Totilas" magic was the special partnership he had with Edward Gal. I am not quite cynical enough yet to believe just anyone can get on him and come close to reproducing that amazing partnership and those amazing rides. While I certainly do not wish Matthias ill, I can't find it in me to really root for him either.

You took the words out of my mouth...:yes::yes::yes:

Calamber
Feb. 9, 2011, 06:04 AM
Podhajsky was a successful Olympic competitor, prior to becoming the Director of the SRS. I revere his methods, but I do wonder what he would say about modern competitions, and the horses that are competitive at that level. Lips often show great range of motion in front, not a la Toto, but some elevation.

I am really sick of hearing comments about Totos hind end, however. If he trotted behind as he does in front, you folks would be carrying on about how he moves like a hackney pony. There is no winning with some folks.

Of course, those same folks won't be winning in the ring against this phenomenon, either. :winkgrin:

Here we go again. We cannot ride the test so we cannot judge the test? That is like saying that one who cannot play the piano cannot hear the difference between Wilhelm Kempf and oh, I guess Schnabel will work.

Calamber
Feb. 9, 2011, 06:11 AM
I finally watched the video. Come on man!! If you didnt like Toto's extended trot before[I did], You have to really dislike this. I went back and compared to several with EG. In this vid he is being held up in front and for the first time I see him NOT coming through behind!
This is no indictment of MR. He is still new, the environment is tough as has been said but it so clear his rear end in the extensions isnt even close! He is doing well with the pi/pa but trannys arent nearly as clean.
I think this guy is going to be great with this horse. But. To look at this video and state or imply that he is one upping the master who created this prevously unparrellelled piece of living art cannot be taken seriously.
BTW. Podjaisky was chosen because he was a signifigantly better politition than any of the other choices.

Can we please at least get the spelling of the man's name correct, it is Podhajsky. The poor horse looked like two different animals front and behind. His neck was so elevated, stiff in the throat, the neck is tense and need I say, elevated, he is popping up and down like a cork and then that lovely Spanish walk at a trot. The poor animal.

Inthemiddle
Feb. 9, 2011, 08:59 AM
The press officer of Paul Schockemöhle wants the YouTube video to be removed from the Internet. At the next show this weekend NO videocamera's are allowed and only edited videos will be published. The only positive articles in Germany are "Oh well maybe it was to early for Matthias" .

But here on COTH the people are singing Hallelujah :confused:

suzy
Feb. 9, 2011, 09:15 AM
I don't see the "Hallelujah" thing. Some of us recognize that it takes time to develop a partnership with a horse, and a few months is a ridiculously short amount of time for Rath and Totilas to become a polished team. There were clearly bobbles in their performance. Nonetheless, Totilas remains a top horse, and Rath is a talented rider. I withhold judgement until they have had at least one year to become properly acquainted. ;)

Edited to say that I just went to Dressage Daily and saw that it is no longer possible to click on the video link of Rath's ride at the Stallion Show.

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 09:26 AM
As much as I enjoy watching Toto enjoy himself, I still see the same incorrect way of moving. It's more saddlebred like in the front and not coming through in the back in a way that matches all of the dressage directives for a correct trot and extended trot. I know that makes me odd rider out, but I'm okay with that. Read your rules/directives. It's circus fun, but it's not competitive dressage at it's best.

Donella
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:05 AM
It's circus fun, but it's not competitive dressage at it's best

Ahh, well, we are all entitled to an opinion. Thank God for the sport though that the opinion of the (VERY qualified/experienced) judges is what matters. You can all whine and complain about the horses and the judging, but at the end of the day those people know WAY more than you do. If you disagree, go get your O card voice your opinion.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:12 AM
Bravo Donella!

spirithorse
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:23 AM
You can all whine and complain about the horses and the judging, but at the end of the day those people know WAY more than you do.

No, file protests for inappropriate and incorrect judging and riding. OH, I forgot they make us pay to do that just so we wont..............

Judges are not gods..........though they and some folks think they are.

There are thousands of dressage people who are far better at observation of the horse than 'some' of these elitist judges.

alicen
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:37 AM
It's circus fun, but it's not competitive dressage at it's best.

Toto's passage under Gal certainly was.

Inthemiddle
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:40 AM
There are thousands of dressage people who are far better at observation of the horse than 'some' of these elitist judges.

YES Spirithorse... but you certainly not belong to this group. You let your frustrations rule your brains.

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:46 AM
Toto's passage under Gal certainly was.

Yep! Now THAT was good, but the extended trot? Hmm...

As for those defending the judges, you have to wonder about the shift in judging. Did they suddenly get BETTER over the years? Or did someone train new judges to judge the newer way WBs move? Back in the 70s and 80s, this horse would have been nailed to the wall and scored down for that trot.

It's fashion and what is popular (and what keeps the judges getting hired and paid). The directives have not changed. The judges have changed how they CHOOSE to interpret it. (If you don't think there is a LOT of political manuevering by the breeders and movers and shakers behind the scenes that influences judging, you're really living in a fantasy.)

I did not say I hate the horse. Nor did I say I am qualified to be in a O judge, but ANYONE out here can look at the videos and then go back to the rule books and their pictures and descriptions and can see for themselves that it's not following the directives. It's supposed to be simple enough that we can understand the rules. Go look. You can see for yourself. Where is the front toe supposed to be pointing before it hits the ground? How much farther does it reach than the hindleg?

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:48 AM
What a tool.

mbm
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:55 AM
Yep! Now THAT was good, but the extended trot? Hmm...

As for those defending the judges, you have to wonder about the shift in judging. Did they suddenly get BETTER over the years? Or did someone train new judges to judge the newer way WBs move? Back in the 70s and 80s, this horse would have been nailed to the wall and scored down for that trot.

It's fashion and what is popular (and what keeps the judges getting hired and paid). The directives have not changed. The judges have changed how they CHOOSE to interpret it. (If you don't think there is a LOT of political manuevering by the breeders and movers and shakers behind the scenes that influences judging, you're really living in a fantasy.)

I did not say I hate the horse. Nor did I say I am qualified to be in a O judge, but ANYONE out here can look at the videos and then go back to the rule books and their pictures and descriptions and can see for themselves that it's not following the directives. It's supposed to be simple enough that we can understand the rules. Go look. You can see for yourself. Where is the front toe supposed to be pointing before it hits the ground? How much farther does it reach than the hindleg?

:yes::yes::yes:

DownYonder
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:04 AM
As for those defending the judges, you have to wonder about the shift in judging. Did they suddenly get BETTER over the years? Or did someone train new judges to judge the newer way WBs move? Back in the 70s and 80s, this horse would have been nailed to the wall and scored down for that trot.

It's fashion and what is popular (and what keeps the judges getting hired and paid). The directives have not changed. The judges have changed how they CHOOSE to interpret it. (If you don't think there is a LOT of political manuevering by the breeders and movers and shakers behind the scenes that influences judging, you're really living in a fantasy.)

Top priority for FEI these days is bringing in money. That means attracting spectators and deep pocketed sponsors. People will flock to see "the big show", so fancier, flashier, faster, higher-jumping, etc., horses are going to be the focus. Judges also know this, so are rewarding flash and sizzle and "star appeal" even if the horse/ride is not correct.

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:10 AM
Top priority for FEI these days is bringing in money. That means attracting spectators and deep pocketed sponsors. People will flock to see "the big show", so fancier, flashier, faster, higher-jumping, etc., horses are going to be the focus. Judges also know this, so are rewarding flash and sizzle and "star appeal" even if the horse/ride is not correct.

Yep! It always comes back to money.

Follow the money... :lol:

nhwr
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:17 AM
We cannot ride the test so we cannot judge the test? You know, there is a certain amount of validity to that point of view.

At least according to the standards of the FEI and USEF. Judges have to have had competition success at levels comparable to (or sometimes higher than) their judging level. In my experience, those who have never ridden at a given level think perfection is required and focus on the flaws rather appreciating the good stuff. Without being aware of what is involved in an attempt to produce something similar, it is simple to dismiss an effort as imperfect. As part of the analytical process, there is nothing wrong with that. Besides it is human nature. But it is not the whole story. We rarely "catch" people being great in the moment. It takes an educated and experienced eye to do that.

I am not telling the inexperienced to keep quiet. But actually having done it does provide insight.

Just saying ....

Donella
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:17 AM
Judges are not gods..........though they and some folks think they are

Nobody thinks they are. I am just sick and freaking tired of people bashing the judges, bashing the top riders, bashing the horses. I think GOOD riders who actually get out there and train their horses and know what is involved in the sport necissarily develope a deep respect for oither people who have excelled. The only people I know that openly disrespect such experience are those who A) can't ride/train well (sour grapes) ie "it;s the bad judges, the "fashionable" horses ect ect and people who B) don't ride at all and have absolutely no concept of what is involved in training dressage horses.

Anyone can sit around and hurl insults at people who have worked their whole lives to be at the top. It's not the judges and the trainers that have the ego problem, it's the people on this board (some of whom can't even sit the freaking trot!!!) that think they are more qualified to train and to judge then Olympic judges, trainers and breeders. I cannot imagine feeling that way and yes, it angers me when I read stuff like that. It's bad for our sport .

And YES, you do have to be qualified in order to make a judgement on someone/something. And if you aren't, please don't expect others who are to take you seriously.

suzy
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:22 AM
I personally like Toto very much. Gal did an amazing job developing this horse, and watching the two of them gave me goose bumps.

But, playing the devil’s advocate, I understand what Velvet is getting at. Here is the FEI’s definition of the extended trot. I have highlighted the section that I think is especially pertinent to this discussion.

Extended trot. The horse covers as much ground as possible. Maintaining the same cadence, he lengthens his steps to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hind quarters. The rider allows the horse, remaining "on the bit", without leaning on it, to lengthen his frame and gain ground. The fore feet should touch the ground on the spot towards where they are pointing. The movement of the fore and hind legs should be similar (parallel) in the forward moment of the extension. The whole movement should be well balanced and the transition to collected trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight on the hind quarters. All trot work must be executed sitting, unless otherwise indicated on the test concerned.

If you look at any of the videos of Toto (with Gal or Rath), the front and hind legs are not parallel. However, he does fulfill the other requirements of the movement. I would also say that his half passes, flying changes, and so on are exemplary. His tests are accurate and full of expression. The extended trot is only one small piece of the entire GP test, so if the horse isn’t 100% perfect, he can still score very well on the test if everything else is well done.

I also think DownYonder’s observation that horses like Toto help the industry by drawing in spectators is true and a very good thing for the sport we love.

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:24 AM
Nobody thinks they are. I am just sick and freaking tired of people bashing the judges, bashing the top riders, bashing the horses. I think GOOD riders who actually get out there and train their horses and know what is involved in the sport necissarily develope a deep respect for oither people who have excelled. The only people I know that openly disrespect such experience are those who A) can't ride/train well (sour grapes) ie "it;s the bad judges, the "fashionable" horses ect ect and people who B) don't ride at all and have absolutely no concept of what is involved in training dressage horses.

Anyone can sit around and hurl insults at people who have worked their whole lives to be at the top. It's not the judges and the trainers that have the ego problem, it's the people on this board that think they are more qualified to train and to judge then Olympic judges, trainers and breeders. I cannot imagine feeling that way and yes, it angers me when I read stuff like that. It's bad for our sport .

And YES, you do have to be qualified in order to make a judgement on someone/something. And if you aren't, please don't expect others who are to take you seriously.

If we do not question authority, we are doomed to have dictatorships. It works in this case just as it does with any "governing" body. Whether for country or for sport. If we do not question when it APPEARS to us that they are going astray, then who will?

Many people out here speaking up HAVE trained horses to the higher levels of dressage. Many are wondering what is going on. It's not that it's not fun to watch, nor that the horses do not excel in some other areas of their test, but when there APPEARS to be a basic flaw in a basic gait and the horse is winning with near perfect scores, we all have a right to ask the judges to explain. Especially when this goes against how judging was handled with similar horses up to just 10 and 20 years ago.

Maybe you just don't have enough experience with the judging that was done back then...

ASB Stars
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:30 AM
You know, in addition to the very valid points made above, regarding the fact that the judges have to, you know, DO IT, as opposed to the folks who simply have found a place to voice an opinion, the value of which is, generally, what you just paid for it.

So here is my also free opinion-- I think that there are a bunch of folks- from breeders to owners and exhibitors at any level who are watching a paradigm shift, and, are realizing that they just got relegated to the bench. Unless you are breeding horses with quite flambouyant movement, the dressage world is just...so OVER you.

The average amateur cannot ride one side of a horse anything like Toto, at anywhere near the level that he is capable of. No surprise. But, the average amateur with money is going to be looking for a vehicle that has alot in common with that flavor of horse. How many ammys do you know who buy a horse that they will simply never be able to ride well, or through the levels that the horse has even been trained at, just *because*? I know, and have seen, dozens.

This horse is a game changer.

So, enjoy yourselves pointing at the horse, and saying he ain't this or that. He is all that. The judges have spoken. When you get into THAT ring, or sit around it with a scribe, just let us know. Undoubtably there will still be those who think that YOU don't get it, either.

nhwr
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:31 AM
I think the definition of extended trot posted is ambiguous and as such is bound to be exploited.

That does not mean that those who come down on opposing sides are incorrect
(unless one side is kicking the other side's a$$ :lol:)

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:35 AM
So, enjoy yourselves pointing at the horse, and saying he ain't this or that. He is all that. The judges have spoken. When you get into THAT ring, or sit around it with a scribe, just let us know. Undoubtably there will still be those who think that YOU don't get it, either.

Um, I didn't get that last paragraph! :lol: when you sit around and you don't get it, you still won't get it? Is that what you're saying? Because the judges have spoken and changed the rules and made dressage actually head back to a more baroque style, we don't get it? Because we're now all waiting for the Spanish walk to be added in as a test movement, because it's popular to look at, we won't get it?

I don't get it. :lol:

ASB Stars
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:50 AM
Um, I didn't get that last paragraph! :lol: when you sit around and you don't get it, you still won't get it? Is that what you're saying? Because the judges have spoken and changed the rules and made dressage actually head back to a more baroque style, we don't get it? Because we're now all waiting for the Spanish walk to be added in as a test movement, because it's popular to look at, we won't get it?

I don't get it. :lol:

I just bet you don't.

suzy
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:55 AM
I think the definition of extended trot posted is ambiguous and as such is bound to be exploited.

That does not mean that those who come down on opposing sides are incorrect
(unless one side is kicking the other side's a$$ :lol:)

I actually don't see the ambiguity but will make a point about scoring and how *I* think the judges may be looking at this.

If I was judging Toto's extended trot at WEG, I would give it an 8 (good) or 9 (very good) because he fulfilled (IMO, exceeded) the requirements for this movement except for the front and hind cannon bones being similar (parallel), which is what I think would be needed to earn a 10 if I was judging strictly by the rules set forth by the FEI. So, even though I don't think a 10 is appropriate, I would have no problem with an 8. The thing that makes me hesitate in awarding a 9 is that I agree with some others who have noted that his neck is short in the extended trot. So, for those of you who think his scores are out of line, remember that the extended trot is only one movement in the test, and he is going to receive a good (if not "excellent") score because he is fulfilling most of the requirements.

Edited to ask, does anyone know what he actually scored on his extended trots at WEG?

ASB, I must admit that I didn't really understand your last paragraph either. :(

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 9, 2011, 12:00 PM
As has been mentioned in other threads. If Toto's cannon bones were parallel in extension he would be kicking himself in the belly. What knd of debate would that spark?

suzy
Feb. 9, 2011, 12:06 PM
LOL. Touche Rollkurista. :)

My own preference would be for the front legs to be a bit less lofty and the hindlegs reaching under more. I love watching Toto, but I agree with those who think that his trot is not within the norm. However, I am not qualified to be the judge of whether that is a good or a bad thing.

nhwr
Feb. 9, 2011, 12:06 PM
I actually don't see the ambiguity

The movement of the fore and hind legs should be similar (parallel) in the forward moment of the extension.

"Similar" is not the same as "parallel", not even close. Some people, the Dutch for examples, think "similar" and try to maximize the height of the foreleg. Others, like the Germans, adhere to strictly parallel.

Who is correct? According to the rule, they both are.

Given the other excellent observations suzy makes, Toto's extended trot scores are well deserved.

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 12:34 PM
I just bet you don't.

My point was that grammatically your last paragraph was flawed. But I guess YOU didn't get that. :lol:

ASB Stars
Feb. 9, 2011, 12:58 PM
Um, I didn't get that last paragraph! :lol: when you sit around and you don't get it, you still won't get it? Is that what you're saying? Because the judges have spoken and changed the rules and made dressage actually head back to a more baroque style, we don't get it? Because we're now all waiting for the Spanish walk to be added in as a test movement, because it's popular to look at, we won't get it?

I don't get it. :lol:

I see.

I note that your response is the very essence of correct grammar, syntax..etc. and perfectly understandable:rolleyes:...Let's just move on.

spirithorse
Feb. 9, 2011, 01:14 PM
As has been mentioned in other threads. If Toto's cannon bones were parallel in extension he would be kicking himself in the belly. What knd of debate would that spark?

Not so. The hind leg could not get that degree of lift.

Toto is magnificent but not correct.

As for the extended trot:
An extended trot requires that the extension comes from the shoulders which places the front hooves out in front of the horse. If the shoulders are not correctly in use the foot fall is basically immediately infront of or directly underneath the chest and thus there is no extension

ToTo's front high lift creates something folks are amazed to watch, however, that high lift actually does not allow for a correct extended trot.

Also, I would love to see a video of ToTo at liberty to see if this high lift is natural. I find it hard to believe that it is and thus such action should not be an attribute to fulfilling the stipulations of the descriptions.

ShannonLee
Feb. 9, 2011, 01:25 PM
I have never seen a horse similar to Totilas. Any horse I saw go 20 years ago that was not good behind in the extended trot, was also not good behind in the collected trot, the passage, the piaffe etc etc, and was judged accordingly. I can't remember any horse that has ever had Totilas' ability to piaffe, passage half pass, pirouette and walk so well, and his scores reflect that.

I agree that Toto's extended trots shouldn't be a 10, but the majority of them should be 7's or 8's, as they fulfill most of the requirements well, but not all. The judging reflected this for the most part. He did, however, get lots of 10's for fantastic work in the rest of the test!

naturalequus
Feb. 9, 2011, 01:32 PM
... ANYONE out here can look at the videos and then go back to the rule books and their pictures and descriptions and can see for themselves that it's not following the directives. It's supposed to be simple enough that we can understand the rules. Go look. You can see for yourself. Where is the front toe supposed to be pointing before it hits the ground? How much farther does it reach than the hindleg?

All it takes is a thorough understanding of biomechanics and thus what to watch for to understand what is correct and what is not. One does not have to be an UL rider or even to have trained UL horses to have an extensive and correct understanding of biomechanics and how they relate to certain movements and thus to be able to judge such movements.

Knowledge level does not necessarily equate to accomplishments (etc). Someone might not have the drive, the horse, the opportunity - whatever - to compete UL but that does not necessarily reflect as to their actual knowledge base.

I absolutely despise it when individuals go off on someone for questioning an UL rider. Said UL rider is only human. They make mistakes. They might not be correct. And just because they ride at the UL's does not mean they are necessarily doing so correctly, that they are necessarily working from a "correct" perspective or knowledge base. In a sport where so much subjectivity is involved, it is only to be expected that certain trends, fads, etc might be followed and that "correct" might differ from what actually happens. Otherwise, I think we should stop questioning those tiny-footed over-muscled halter QH's too. Or training techniques such as Rolkur. Or polling/rapping jumpers. Or padding and soring TW's. After all, their breeders, owners, and riders MUST know what they're doing - they are winning, after all. And winning (especially under subjectivity ie, human judges) is everything. Nvm the horse and biomechanics. And this is why I choose jumpers over hunters and dressage :winkgrin:

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 01:51 PM
I see.

I note that your response is the very essence of correct grammar, syntax..etc. and perfectly understandable:rolleyes:...Let's just move on.

ASB, I didn't realize you were quite SO obtuse. :lol: (The reason the response was written that way was to follow the example of your paragraph.)

Wow, instead of responding by clarifying, you just keep on missing the point. :eek:

Maybe it's writing in the heat of the moment that's making you miss that the sharp pointy thing in the middle of the other replies.

naturalequus
Feb. 9, 2011, 01:53 PM
These tapes are all excellent learning opportunities for all levels of riders.

Also, the more discussion on this type of thing, the better educated everyone becomes about the art and sport of dressage. That makes for a better educated audience, which bodes well for the sport and the horses. And it makes for better educated riders.

this! So keep an open mind, peeps :yes:

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 01:53 PM
All it takes is a thorough understanding of biomechanics and thus what to watch for to understand what is correct and what is not. One does not have to be an UL rider or even to have trained UL horses to have an extensive and correct understanding of biomechanics and how they relate to certain movements and thus to be able to judge such movements.

Knowledge level does not necessarily equate to accomplishments (etc). Someone might not have the drive, the horse, the opportunity - whatever - to compete UL but that does not necessarily reflect as to their actual knowledge base.

I absolutely despise it when individuals go off on someone for questioning an UL rider. Said UL rider is only human. They make mistakes. They might not be correct. And just because they ride at the UL's does not mean they are necessarily doing so correctly, that they are necessarily working from a "correct" perspective or knowledge base. In a sport where so much subjectivity is involved, it is only to be expected that certain trends, fads, etc might be followed and that "correct" might differ from what actually happens. Otherwise, I think we should stop questioning those tiny-footed over-muscled halter QH's too. Or training techniques such as Rolkur. Or polling/rapping jumpers. Or padding and soring TW's. After all, their breeders, owners, and riders MUST know what they're doing - they are winning, after all. And winning (especially under subjectivity ie, human judges) is everything. Nvm the horse and biomechanics. And this is why I choose jumpers over hunters and dressage :winkgrin:

You missed my all time favorite "sport gone wrong"--Western Pleasure. :eek:

It used to look like WP. Now I don't know what you'd call it. The rules/directives stayed the same, but the winning horses don't even know how to lope, let alone jog trot.

naturalequus
Feb. 9, 2011, 02:01 PM
Ooops! That was probably the BIGGEST one, too! Sorry Velvet, please accept my humblest apologies!! :winkgrin:

ASB Stars
Feb. 9, 2011, 02:39 PM
ASB, I didn't realize you were quite SO obtuse. :lol: (The reason the response was written that way was to follow the example of your paragraph.)

Wow, instead of responding by clarifying, you just keep on missing the point. :eek:

Maybe it's writing in the heat of the moment that's making you miss that the sharp pointy thing in the middle of the other replies.

If you didn't understand the point I was making, I'm sorry! I'm not quite sure why playing games makes this any better for you, but whatever...

I guess that whole rectal cranial inversion that is contemplated in your sig line is the result of your personal experience.

In any event, as I requested before, let's just move on-- this isn't really quite the point, is it?

naturalequus
Feb. 9, 2011, 02:44 PM
In my own humble opinion, I am not concerned about a slight bobble here or there. My concern is the HOW the horse is moving in general. Not due to natural tendencies but rather due to training. Training will either exacerbate or cause a deterioration in a horse's movements. A certain (large) amount of flamboyancy and movement will always be Totilas' own and I respect and understand that - but I want to see him moving correctly, for his own respective movement to be presented under and within the context of correct riding. He can still have his flamboyancy and marked movement while maintaining a loose back and proper engagement. That's what makes him Totilas. I would absolutely love to see a video of Totilas' movement prior to commencing training, at liberty (relaxed, loose movement, mind you). Alas, I have yet to find such a video. We are not expecting perfection here, but a horse competing at the GRAND PRIX and OLYMPIC level should, imo, be moving at least correctly. At such a young age he will not have accomplished perfection, but he should at least be more engaged and less tense then he is, and ridden with more harmony and less curb. He should be on an appropriate path to perfection within a classical sense.

That said, I do not feel that I can accurately compare the two rides (ie, Gal between Rath's recent presentation) when Rath has hardly ridden Totilas, comparatively. It will probably take a good solid 1-2 years to re-develop musculature and sync up with Totilas, so to compare the two rides now is relatively unfair. I will say that I did still see in Rath's ride a disconnect between front and hind, much tension, and a parallel curb. Improvement from Gal's ride though? Perhaps. We have yet to really see.

As far as those toting Gal's and Totilas' partnership as so special - I really have to disagree, from what I have seen. Maybe it was, none of us personally know the pair (?). A constantly twitching tail is not a sign of harmony. Personally if my own horses have a twitchy tail, I know something is up. My main TB swishes his tail if I ask something that is an increased challenge or if he is PO'd about something in particular (like my wiggling the dressage whip at his hind to ask him to engage more on that particular side). It might be temporary discontent as we work on something requiring more challenge (etc) but I would expect to have worked that out with further work when we actually compete because by then we've worked sufficiently to develop the strength and training level to be competing at that level. It certainly is not a moment of synchronicity or harmony between us (that does not mean our relationship is not harmonious, just that that moment is not a harmonious one and if that is occurring with great frequency and especially in established movements etc, maybe there is a disconnect between horse and rider). Either way, that is just my opinion but irregardless, the tail is not separate from the rest of the body! It is an extension of the spine, so unless it is gently swinging with the movement of a loose back, the back is not loose - it indicates the same degree of tension that may be found in the back. Plain and simple. What the tail does is a reflection of the horse's mental, emotional, and physical state(s).

Honestly, as much as I respect and love Totilas, his movements just do not follow the FEI definition suzy posted. There is certainly room for a horse's individual characteristics of movement within that definition. What we are seeing is not simply "Totilas movement", we are also seeing a result of his training.

As for ASB Stars' comment:
"I am really sick of hearing comments about Totos hind end, however. If he trotted behind as he does in front, you folks would be carrying on about how he moves like a hackney pony. There is no winning with some folks."

Yeah, he would be. That is not correct either. It's what my main TB boy does when he is tense. Your comment makes me suspicious you might not accurately understand the proper biomechanics of the horse and how they reflect in its movement. It is not about trotting behind as he does in front. His high forelegs are going to be the result of his training and how he moves behind, not just his own flamboyant style of moving. Thus, we are not expecting his hinds to move as his fronts do, we are expecting his forelegs to move in accordance with how his hinds are moving. Since he is BTV, his back and neck are tense, he does not appear to move sufficiently uphill when he should be engaged and stepping (further) beneath himself, and he is not lengthening appropriately in body in the extended trot, his forelegs will reflect as such. This reflection is due to the musculature of the horse and how it is all connected via the fascia.

A few thoughts to consider:
A tense back = tense hamstrings/croup = spectacular angling of the hinds but no (or little/less) actual reach (covers insufficient ground beneath behind, no symmetry in movement of diagonal pairs, exaggerated action of the front legs, especially in the extended trot)
Body tension = back tension = restraint of the forearm = forearm is "thrown" forward from the elbow with the points of shoulder unable to open up because the forearm is held too tightly
In order to make contact with the ground, the limbs must be quickly pulled backward and thus the even "curve" of the trotting hoof is lost
From: Tug of War (Dr. Gerd Heuschmann)

Taken to an extreme, it is somewhat akin to when my main TB boy pushes UP rather than FORWARD with his hinds. He inverts, his back tenses, and his forearm movement is exaggerated because he is holding the forearm so tightly due to the tension in his back. My instructor calls his movement "catlike" lol because his hinds stride short and do not step beneath the body. We lose the curve of the trotting hoof as his hinds step short and quick and his forelegs lift flamboyantly.

There is no arguing Totilas has a tense back when he is insufficiently engaged and uphill, when he is behind the vertical, when his body does not lengthen appropriately, and when his tail is twitching. So if his back is not loose, his forearm will be held tightly and thus be thrown forward from the elbow...resulting in some of the flamboyant action we see. To what degree, I think we could only tell by seeing him actually loose and relaxed, and especially loose and relaxed at liberty.

ETA: it is not that Totilas is not engaged etc at times, it is more about the overall performance and how he moves when it counts.

Oh and as far as judges go, Dr. Gerd Heuschmann also has some interesting insight as to why and how what is occurring in the dressage world is indeed occurring. Judges are not infallible and as other posters have noted, follow the money trail.

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 02:44 PM
If you didn't understand the point I was making, I'm sorry! I'm not quite sure why playing games makes this any better for you, but whatever...

I guess that whole rectal cranial inversion that is contemplated in your sig line is the result of your personal experience.



It's just pure entertainment at this point. :lol: Most people out here have a sense of humor. I do, however, tend to avoid unarmed opponents. Sometimes I just don't seem to realize that they are weaponless until a few replies have been made.

BTW, the sig line is based on experience out here with many other people who have no experience and yet seem to want to expound upon the topic no matter how obvious their ignorance becomes. Not really seeing as an inversion. Maybe you didn't get how people can speak out of their backsides... :lol: Oops, there I go again...(see first paragraph)

ASB Stars
Feb. 9, 2011, 03:52 PM
Not really seeing as an inversion.

No, most people with the condition cannot see- it is one of the symptoms...

and we're back to our regularly scheduled program about the brilliance of Toto!!

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 03:58 PM
No, most people with the condition cannot see- it is one of the symptoms...



:lol:

Pot..kettle...


:lol:

BaroquePony
Feb. 9, 2011, 04:36 PM
Yeeee ... haw!!

May the games begin :lol:

Get those buns sucked down into your saddle :lol:

mickeydoodle
Feb. 9, 2011, 04:40 PM
Dead wrong! 15 yard penalty. First and ten.


agree, so funny to watch the comments-

I would kill, KILL to ride this horse even one trillionth as well as Rath and Gal, hell I would just like to sit on him. I thought the pair did well for the exciting venue and the short time together. The horse is not a motorcycle or car- you cannot just get on/in and turn the key. Best of luck to them all, and especially best of luck to Gal.

Donella
Feb. 9, 2011, 04:53 PM
There is nothing wrong with questioning anyone or anything. But Gal's training was refered to a few pages back as "circus tricks". That is not questioning. That is a comment that could only come from someone who has absolutely no clue about training or the sport of dressage.

As for the comment that many of the Naysayers here are FEI trainers. Yah right! Prove it then.


Yeah, he would be. That is not correct either.

No? Where does it say that wouldn't be correct in the directives??

I have no issue with people saying he shouldn't get a ten for his extended trot. He doesn't get a ten. For the millionth time, the reason the hind cannon is not parallel is because the horse's front end is so incredibly free in the shoulder that it is not biomechanically possible for them to match . So while parallel cannons may, in most cases, indicate an active, carrying hind leg, it is not an accurate way of judging Toto. The FACT of the matter is that no horse can piaffe and passage for a ten, break world records at the GP level and have anything BUT a super hind end. You need to understand the reasoning behind these directives before you get so hung up on them.

I don't know. It's this bizarre focus on bashing and critiquing top riders and top horses. The better they do, the more these posters bash, rant , freak out and draw attention to the minor imperfections in the rides. It's really lame.

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 04:58 PM
Don't remember "circus tricks" being the words used...

BTW, why is it that I NEVER get to have the popcorn, but instead am part of the entertainment out here??? :eek:

:lol: :lol:

Donella
Feb. 9, 2011, 05:01 PM
It's circus fun, but it's not competitive dressage at it's best

Sorry, "circus FUN". Is that your version a compliment?

naturalequus
Feb. 9, 2011, 05:10 PM
Yeah, he would be. That is not correct either.

No? Where does it say that wouldn't be correct in the directives??

Um, the biomechanics of the horse says so.


For the millionth time, the reason the hind cannon is not parallel is because the horse's front end is so incredibly free in the shoulder that it is not biomechanically possible for them to match . So while parallel cannons may, in most cases, indicate an active, carrying hind leg, it is not an accurate way of judging Toto. The FACT of the matter is that no horse can piaffe and passage for a ten, break world records at the GP level and have anything BUT a super hind end. You need to understand the reasoning behind these directives before you get so hung up on them.

I don't know. It's this bizarre focus on bashing and critiquing top riders and top horses. The better they do, the more these posters bash, rant , freak out and draw attention to the minor imperfections in the rides. It's really lame.

And for the millionth time, it is not physically possible for him to be so supposedly FREE in the shoulder with such a tense back. Body tension = back tension = restraint of forearm (because, it's attached to the body :yes: :lol:) = forearm thrown forward from the elbow. You are mistaking "freedom" of forearm and shoulder with tension. With a tense back, it is not physically possible for him to engage and step beneath himself to the fullest extent.

When the longissimus is blocked, there is a delay and shortening of the forward-swinging phase of the hind. THAT is where diagonal pairs become disrupted.

Sorry, are you saying people should restrict criticism to riders at a lower level? Well, that is just not how I operate. I evaluate according to the RIDER and HORSE. I don't care what level they are. Some horse-rider pairs I gush over, others I criticize.

I'm tired of hearing a person cannot evaluate an UL horse or rider. They are not Gods.

DownYonder
Feb. 9, 2011, 05:11 PM
For the millionth time, the reason the hind cannon is not parallel is because the horse's front end is so incredibly free in the shoulder that it is not biomechanically possible for them to match . So while parallel cannons may, in most cases, indicate an active, carrying hind leg, it is not an accurate way of judging Toto. The FACT of the matter is that no horse can piaffe and passage for a ten, break world records at the GP level and have anything BUT a super hind end. You need to understand the reasoning behind these directives before you get so hung up on them.

Is it possible that Totilas is living proof of the development of the breeding art? He has a freedom in the front end that has been pretty much inconceivable up till recently (he even out-does Painted Black - who often didn't have a hind leg in the same county as his front end).

Perhaps the directives will need to be revisited now that Toto has appeared on the scene. And esp. so if he produces little movement marvels like himself. :D

nhwr
Feb. 9, 2011, 05:11 PM
BTW, why is it that I NEVER get to have the popcorn, but instead am part of the entertainment out here??? :eek:
Because you refuse to relinquish your whip, especially if gnomes are present.

princessfluffybritches
Feb. 9, 2011, 05:43 PM
Who's going to score more points for a specific movement; a horse that does the movement perfectly according to the rules, but is somewhat dull, or a horse that does the movement pretty close but takes your breath away?

We talk about whether a horse falls short of the "10" or meets the "10", but what about exceeding a "10"? Is there , in theory, an 11?

Which horse would be easier to teach a correct passage to? A Lippizan or a horse like Toto? (anatomy and size). Is this taken into consideration at judging?

spirithorse
Feb. 9, 2011, 05:47 PM
Who's going to score more points for a specific movement; a horse that does the movement perfectly according to the rules, but is somewhat dull, or a horse that does the movement pretty close but takes your breath away?

If the horse is meeting the descriptions it should take your breath away NO MATTER THE BREED.

Dressage competition is about rules and that means meeting the rules in total, which, simply means the horse is CORRECT.

In_The_Ribbons
Feb. 9, 2011, 06:16 PM
I'm surprised that no one has actually interviewed the judges (at WEG, or other venues) and simply asked them all the questions that were raised in this thread.

Can't someone from Dressage Daily, COTH, or a similar publication dispatch one of their writers for an interview? There are a gazillion of people arguing all over the Internet as to why Toto's rides are scored the way they are, but it seems like no one has ever considered going to the source (the judges) for an explanation?

Honestly, how difficult could it possibly be? I just don't get why it hasn't been done yet...

nhwr
Feb. 9, 2011, 06:35 PM
the biomechanics of the horse says so.Interesting ideas but where are the rules of biomechanics? Probably within physics ... but how many dressage enthusiasts understand vectors?
As I said earlier, similar ≠ parallel, adding on; movement ≠ moment.


I still maintain, by the FEI rules of competition, Totilas (as ridden by Gal) was correct. Read the rules carefully. As has been noted before, the rule says;

The movement of the fore and hind legs should be similar (parallel) in the forward moment of the extension. I said earlier, similar does not equal parallel.

The rule does not say that the hinds legs should be parallel to the front legs. It says "the fore and hind legs should be similar (parallel) to forward moment (not movement) of the extension".

Short course; this doesn't mean the hind legs should be parallel to the back legs. The "moment of the extension" is a vector dependent combination of the forward force and the elevating force. On that basis, it is a gross over-simplification to compare the movement of the hind legs to the movement of the front legs and say that his movement is correct (or incorrect) because his front and back legs are (or aren't) parallel.

(Sorry but I am a geek at heart who went back to college :lol:)

BaroquePony
Feb. 9, 2011, 06:39 PM
this doesn't mean the hind legs should be parallel to the back legs

This does not make sense mathematically or in physics (applied mathematics) :no:

alicen
Feb. 9, 2011, 06:42 PM
Totilas' marks Aachen 2010 Grand Prix http://results.chioaachen.de/resultpage10/DRE/D2.asp

Free style: http://results.chioaachen.de/resultpage10/DRE/D9.asp

click on total points.

nhwr
Feb. 9, 2011, 06:47 PM
This does not make sense mathematically or in physics (applied mathematics)
It does make sense, if you are working with vector (multi - dimensional) forces. That is the way horses actually move and why the discussion is about moments.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 9, 2011, 06:49 PM
Just a thought here. Would it be too logical for Rath to consider training with a German like Isabel Werth whose method is much closer to the way Toto was educated rather than trying to change him? I'm just sayin....

nhwr
Feb. 9, 2011, 07:02 PM
^ ^

no because just like the Germans think Leibniz "invented" calculus, many believe they are the arbiters of "correct" dressage. IOW, if it ain't happening in Germany, it ain't happening :lol:

Don't get me wrong. I loff Germans, their intellect, strength, perseverance and dedication. But at the risk of being politically incorrect, as a nationality, I haven't observed a strong propensity for introspection. But then I am not a perfect observer, by any means.

alicen
Feb. 9, 2011, 07:18 PM
Just a thought here. Would it be too logical for Rath to consider training with a German like Isabel Werth whose method is much closer to the way Toto was educated rather than trying to change him? I'm just sayin....

Hmmm, but she might actually have a shot at beating Totilas now. And then you must remember what happened when Anky trained Edward Gal.

spirithorse
Feb. 9, 2011, 07:37 PM
Article 404.5 Extended trot
The horse covers as much ground as possible. Without hurrying, the steps are lengthened to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hindquarters. The athlete allows the horse to lengthen the frame and to gain ground whilst controlling the poll, The fore feet should touch the ground on the spot towards which they are pointing. The movement of the fore and hind legs should reach equally forward in the moment of extension. The whole movement should be well-balanced and the transition to collected trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight on the hindquarters.

Sandy M
Feb. 9, 2011, 07:40 PM
Please tell me I'm not the only poster that :eek::confused: I mean, really, was Podjaisky really that good? Does anyone really know for sure?

Well, FWIW, Podjasky took a mediocre cavalry horse, referred to as a "sausage" (certainly NOTHING remotely in the class of Totilas), and won a bronze medal in dressage on it at the Olympics. And hewon it at the '36 Berlin Olympics, I believe, when there was probably something less than a level playing field. (e.g.., the German riders KNEW about the "hole" in the water jump and the uneven depth of the water. Several horse fell, one broke a leg. Gold to Germany)

Velvet
Feb. 9, 2011, 08:17 PM
Because you refuse to relinquish your whip, especially if gnomes are present.

An emoticon just will not cut it for that one! I have to actually type this one: ROTFLOLWMP

BaroquePony
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:06 PM
Just a thought here. Would it be too logical for Rath to consider training with a German like Isabel Werth whose method is much closer to the way Toto was educated rather than trying to change him? I'm just sayin....

I thought that someone listed who he was going to train with on the last thread on Rath (like a month or two ago).

BaroquePony
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:25 PM
Posted by nhwr:





Originhal post by nhwr:

this doesn't mean the hind legs should be parallel to the back legs

Quote by BaroquePony:

This does not make sense mathematically or in physics (applied mathematics)

It does make sense, if you are working with vector (multi - dimensional) forces. That is the way horses actually move and why the discussion is about moments.

I am familiar with multi-variable calculus being used in complex planes/planar systems. The above quote ^ still does not make sense. You have multiple planar systems in motion and you are comparing *hind legs* to *back legs*. That is like comparing the number 7 to the number 7.

naturalequus
Feb. 9, 2011, 10:49 PM
Interesting ideas but where are the rules of biomechanics?

Let me re-phrase this: according to the structure of the horse (ie, musculoskeletal system, ligaments, tendons, etc etc). Physics as you mention them need not be involved.

nhwr
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:27 AM
I am familiar with multi-variable calculus being used in complex planes/planar systems. The above quote ^ still does not make sense. You have multiple planar systems in motion and you are comparing *hind legs* to *back legs*. That is like comparing the number 7 to the number 7.I am not sure what you mean by this but you don't need calculus to visualize this issue. 7 = 7 in a scalar world. But we don't live or do dressage in a scalar world.

7 ≠ 7 (necessarily) with vectors.

nhwr
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:29 AM
Let me re-phrase this: according to the structure of the horse (ie, musculoskeletal system, ligaments, tendons, etc etc). Physics as you mention them need not be involved.

REALLY? What do you think determines the tolerances of the musculoskeletal system, ligaments, tendons, etc etc ...... if physics doesn't?

alicen
Feb. 10, 2011, 05:29 AM
Short course; this doesn't mean the hind legs should be parallel to the back legs.

nhwr, if I may intercede for a moment, it appears that you mistakenly, in the enthusiasm of the moment, wrote hind legs instead of front legs in the above sentence. That's all.

BaroquePony
Feb. 10, 2011, 08:11 AM
Posted by nhwr:

Because you refuse to relinquish your whip, especially if gnomes are present.

:lol:

suzy
Feb. 10, 2011, 08:19 AM
Totilas' marks Aachen 2010 Grand Prix http://results.chioaachen.de/resultpage10/DRE/D2.asp

Free style: http://results.chioaachen.de/resultpage10/DRE/D9.asp

click on total points.

Thanks so much for providing those links. Regarding the GP test, it was cool to see that the judges all gave Toto 9s for Impulsion, and it was interesting, but not unexpected, to see that the scores ranged from 7 to 9 for both extended trots.

Donella, I think everyone is entitled to express their opinions on horses/riders whether or not they are FEI competitors. Everyone interprets things based on their own frame of reference, and it won't necessarily match yours or mine or nhwr's or anyone else's for that matter.

I agree with you that Toto is fantastic and Gal did a phenomenal job training him, but I do question the front end being so much more extravagant than the hind end. If you look at the individual scores that Alicen provided in the first link, you will see that at least a couple of the judges found something lacking in Toto's extended trot, and it does raise the question as to whether it's the disparity between the movement of the front end compared to the hind. I would love to hear an interview of some of these judges--those who awarded a 9 and those who awarded a 7.

There is no question IMO that Toto is in a class of his own, and we may be entering the next stage of uber pferden when his offspring hit the competition ring. Only time will tell. Meanwhile, I don't see where there's a crime in asking questions about Toto's extended trot. It doesn't mean that some of us don't love him and think he deserves the high scores he has received, but we are curious about this one movement.

BaroquePony
Feb. 10, 2011, 08:35 AM
Katarine,

*light bulb moment*, yes, I think I understand what you are saying ... about all of the tension through the spine of Totilas, and a lot of it, :yes: ... there is an underlying tension in Totilas that is not allowing the spine to come through ... most evident in the *explosion(s)*. Under both riders. [ETA: my bad sentence/paragraph structure ... I am/was referring to the tension under both riders, not *explosions* under both riders because there are no *explosions* under Gal.] Handled differently though, by each. To be expected this early on in the change of riders and the highly cranked-up Totilas.

Oops :lol:

suzy
Feb. 10, 2011, 08:42 AM
Because you refuse to relinquish your whip, especially if gnomes are present.

ROTFLOL. I want to join the *I refuse to relinquish my whip..." clique!!!

Velvet
Feb. 10, 2011, 09:40 AM
Yeah! We've started a new clique! :lol: :lol:

(suzy, I expect to see it in your sig line from now on. :yes: ;) )

suzy
Feb. 10, 2011, 09:57 AM
Happy now? ;)

Velvet
Feb. 10, 2011, 10:31 AM
Happy now? ;)

:yes:


:lol:

Donella
Feb. 10, 2011, 10:41 AM
Is it possible that Totilas is living proof of the development of the breeding art? He has a freedom in the front end that has been pretty much inconceivable up till recently (he even out-does Painted Black - who often didn't have a hind leg in the same county as his front end).

Perhaps the directives will need to be revisited now that Toto has appeared on the scene. And esp. so if he produces little movement marvels like himself.

Thats what I am saying.

For the person who thinks he is wrought with tension (and actually doesn't really have a free shoulder!) LOL. OK lady. Whatever you say. The problem with that comment is that it is truly impossible for a horse that is full of tension to exhibit such a perfectly loose , relaxed walk (and sometimes he does this from the passage!). THATS what amazes me most about this horse, is his complete inner calm coupled with this amazing positive tension/electricity. Even at the end of his tests, with crowds going wild, totally electric atmosphere, Gal drops the reins and the horse strolls out as if he is walking in the park.

You need to educate your eye. This is exactly why it IS important to understand the sport.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 10, 2011, 10:45 AM
Once again, bravo Donella! Yeah. When Edward was riding him in passage with his knees almost knocking him in the chin, transitons to free walk and strolls off like he doesnt have care in the world, that sure looks tense. Come on man!!!!

suzy
Feb. 10, 2011, 11:00 AM
The comments about tension bother me as well. What some of you may be calling "tension" is what I call focus and sensitivity--both are wonderful qualities. If he was wrought with tension, he would not be able to perform seamless transitions or balanced, rhythmic lateral work in a steady tempo or straight and nearly flawless flying changes. The test would be wrought with bobbles. As wonderful as Gal is as a rider, even he would be hard pressed to get such amazing results from a tense horse. I think the incredible accuracy of Gal's test also speaks to the sensitivity of Toto. If he was really tense, Gal would just not be able to nail down such extraordinary and extraodinarily consistent transitions right at the letter!!! The aids just do not go "through" a tense horse the way they do a focused horse.

As I think Velvet has stated on other threads (maybe here, too), this is a horse that looks as though he loves what he is doing and enjoys showing off for the crowds.

Velvet
Feb. 10, 2011, 11:16 AM
Yep, he has such joie de vivre you can't help but smile. He LOVES his job. That's the thing I find most amazing about him. While I still have concerns about his extended trot being rewarded so highly when it's not meeting the directives, I do enjoy watching him and think that the people on the other thread screaming that Gal is anthropomorphizing need to take a harder look at this horse in the ring.

How can you NOT see that he enjoys his job and the crowds? Oh, wait, I'm anthropomorphizing. :rolleyes: A horse could NEVER like things or dislike things. They just are. :no:

Seriously, that is the thing I think we can all agree on (well, with a few exceptions out here on this thread). This horse LOVES his job.

netg
Feb. 10, 2011, 12:57 PM
Interesting ideas but where are the rules of biomechanics? Probably within physics ... but how many dressage enthusiasts understand vectors?
As I said earlier, similar ‚ parallel, adding on; movement ‚ moment.


I still maintain, by the FEI rules of competition, Totilas (as ridden by Gal) was correct. Read the rules carefully. As has been noted before, the rule says;
I said earlier, similar does not equal parallel.

The rule does not say that the hinds legs should be parallel to the front legs. It says "the fore and hind legs should be similar (parallel) to forward moment (not movement) of the extension".

Short course; this doesn't mean the hind legs should be parallel to the back legs. The "moment of the extension" is a vector dependent combination of the forward force and the elevating force. On that basis, it is a gross over-simplification to compare the movement of the hind legs to the movement of the front legs and say that his movement is correct (or incorrect) because his front and back legs are (or aren't) parallel.

(Sorry but I am a geek at heart who went back to college :lol:)


As an engineer, I've had to do vector math, physics, etc.

However, I disagree with you on your use of moment. I believe as written by dressage rules committees, moment means:

an indefinitely short period of time; instant: I'll be with you in a moment.


As in, legs are similar as the horse is reaching fully forward. Not while Toto is lifting his knees, but rather as his leg stretches, that moment with the longest reach.

I do agree that similar does not equal parallel nor identical, though!

spirithorse
Feb. 10, 2011, 01:09 PM
Toto's extended trot does not contain actual extension of the foreleg.

Watch closely for the apex point at which the hoof 'should' be pointing at the landing spot.

ASB Stars
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:01 PM
Toto's extended trot does not contain actual extension of the foreleg.

Watch closely for the apex point at which the hoof 'should' be pointing at the landing spot.

What we are seeing, and the judges are acknowledging, is a paradigm shift in what a horse actually CAN do when they have the ultimate range of motion. The judges have elected to reward this additiona athletic ability. Horses who snap their legs out in front of them, in the extensions, are not demonstrating this kind of range, quite simply.

As I said before, Totilas is a game changer.

There were horses before him, whose movement heralded this kind of shift, but he is the real expression of this- in the flesh.

betonbill
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:09 PM
When Paul S. paid all those millions of Euros for Totilas, I think he was hoping to purchase the whole thing, including the WOW factor and all of those 90+ percentile points. I don't think he was spending all that money so that the horse could be "retrained," nor do I believe that he was intending to spend several years potentially losing out to other horses so that his new rider could become accustomed to the ride. From all accounts and the quashing of the unedited videos, he along with the knowledgable Germans, was not happy with Totila's performance. From my viewpoint, the magic and the WOW factor just weren't there.

PERHAPS Edward actually knew what he was doing with the horse. Perhaps Totilas has to be ridden the way he was in order to achieve the scores that he did. Perhaps Edward actually does use his legs.

It will be interesting to see what happens in these next few months.

naturalequus
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:11 PM
REALLY? What do you think determines the tolerances of the musculoskeletal system, ligaments, tendons, etc etc ...... if physics doesn't?

That is not what I said, nhwr. Essentially my point was that it does not take a physics or mathematics degree to comprehend the structure of the horse and how it functions (in regards to the questions asked here). Evaluating the musculoskeletal structure of the horse, one can evaluate what is possible, how the horse should be moving, etc. Yeesh :rolleyes:

spirithorse
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:12 PM
There is nothing 'athletic' about the saddlebred knee action of Toto.

True athletic extension of the fore leg is what should be expected at extended trot. "Ground covering" is not what Toto presents.

naturalequus
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:21 PM
For the person who thinks he is wrought with tension (and actually doesn't really have a free shoulder!) LOL. OK lady. Whatever you say. The problem with that comment is that it is truly impossible for a horse that is full of tension to exhibit such a perfectly loose , relaxed walk (and sometimes he does this from the passage!). THATS what amazes me most about this horse, is his complete inner calm coupled with this amazing positive tension/electricity. Even at the end of his tests, with crowds going wild, totally electric atmosphere, Gal drops the reins and the horse strolls out as if he is walking in the park.


Tension in the trot (or elsewhere) does not necessarily equate to omnipresent tension - tension in every movement, request, gait. My own main TB can have an exorbitantly tense trot yet still maintain a loose walk afterwards, too. And tension in the back does not necessarily equate to a strung-out horse. In this instance I would expect the horse to be focused, concentrated, trying his best at a job he loves, and only holding tension because of the manner in which he is being asked to move. Due to the structure and function of the body. jmho

A wringing tail just is not a loose spine. Aaaanyways :winkgrin:

Donella
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:26 PM
Toto's extended trot does not contain actual extension of the foreleg

Oh..ok...so what exactly is his front leg doing here?:

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.edwardgal.nl/img/upl/nws/Foto2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.edwardgal.nl/%3Fp%3D11%26id%3D96%26l%3DEN&usg=__MtLqpj-cKMn-rDije7Wi0m57C-M=&h=297&w=449&sz=85&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=S9AntI6rCCXr6M:&tbnh=134&tbnw=179&ei=MTxUTdm6L4ep8AaU3OnSCA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtotilas%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D14 36%26bih%3D728%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=250&oei=MTxUTdm6L4ep8AaU3OnSCA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0&tx=64&ty=77


Or here (or in many other photos found via google)


http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dressage-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WDM-GP-Edward-Gal-Moorlands-Totilas_JB_38271.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dressage-news.com/%3Fp%3D2458&usg=__8DDwfTPvgOrtWeMHnYycNxp7InI=&h=427&w=500&sz=81&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=jws8lF4ulfp5SM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=168&ei=0TtUTZfGE4Kr8AbxnonnCA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtotilas%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D14 36%26bih%3D728%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=437&oei=0TtUTZfGE4Kr8AbxnonnCA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=58&ty=75


No offence Spirithorse but I don't think you are in a position to comment on what is and what is not athletic about this horse/rider combo considering your idea of athleticism is riding (or clinging on to) a hollow horse as it goes over low trot poles.


As I said before, Totilas is a game changer

Yup.

Tension in the trot (or elsewhere) does not necessarily equate to omnipresent tension - tension in every movement, request, gait

You are right. There is what is considered "positive" tension and there is negative tension (which also has mental component). Positive tension is required in order to develope expression. But that is TOTALLY different from tension that prevents throughness.

spirithorse
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:36 PM
a hollow horse as it goes over low trot poles.

Donella;
no offense but you do not even know what a hollow back looks like! And you do not know what low trot poles are! Low trot poles are ground poles not ones in the position I had them in. The position that creates maximum movement in the pelvic region of the horse. Which creates a muscle structure that can carry the hindquarter and have a lengthened stride when asked.

As for these images of Toto, only one is correct and videos clearly show that he is not correctly demonstrating an extended trot.

Why is it that 'correct' is so wrong? These are tests that must meet stipulated descriptions...otherwise the movements are not 'correct', instead the movements become flash and glitz without substance.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:39 PM
Spirithorse. Your right to refer to Totilas as Toto is officially revoked. Please. If you must refer to him at all you must use his full correct name or just call him "He who kicks ass."

ASB Stars
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:43 PM
Donella;
no offense but you do not even know what a hollow back looks like! And you do not know what low trot poles are! Low trot poles are ground poles not ones in the position I had them in. The position that creates maximum movement in the pelvic region of the horse. Which creates a muscle structure that can carry the hindquarter and have a lengthened stride when asked.

As for these images of Toto, only one is correct and videos clearly show that he is not correctly demonstrating an extended trot.

Why is it that 'correct' is so wrong? These are tests that must meet stipulated descriptions...otherwise the movements are not 'correct', instead the movements become flash and glitz without substance.

Honestly? Your pictures are ample proof that you simply haven't the vaguest idea what you are talking about.

I use caveletti set exactly where yours are, and thats fine and dandy, but what you are accomplishing is exactly the opposite of what should and can be done, with correctly applied caveletti exercises.

In short-- you wouldn't know correct if it slapped you upside your face. There is walking the walk, and talking or typing the type. You seem to be able to type...

suzy
Feb. 10, 2011, 02:59 PM
Spirithorse. Your right to refer to Totilas as Toto is officially revoked. Please. If you must refer to him at all you must use his full correct name or just call him "He who kicks ass."

Omigosh--this thread gets funnier by the minute. And, from now on, would everyone please refer to me as SWKA. Or maybe SWWA considering the clique I'm in. Thanks.

Carry on...

naturalequus
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:02 PM
Tension in the trot (or elsewhere) does not necessarily equate to omnipresent tension - tension in every movement, request, gait

You are right. There is what is considered "positive" tension and there is negative tension (which also has mental component). Positive tension is required in order to develope expression. But that is TOTALLY different from tension that prevents throughness.

I understand the difference between positive and negative tension and still stand by my opinion :winkgrin:

Donella
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:05 PM
no offense but you do not even know what a hollow back looks like!

Mmmmmm pretty sure I do. But thanks to your well illustrated demo any possible confusion any of us may have had in the past has been eliminated.

I understand the difference between positive and negative tension and still stand by my opinion

Well it doesn't seem like you understand because you were talking about the tension in a negative way.

suzy
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:07 PM
When Paul S. paid all those millions of Euros for Totilas, I think he was hoping to purchase the whole thing, including the WOW factor and all of those 90+ percentile points. I don't think he was spending all that money so that the horse could be "retrained," nor do I believe that he was intending to spend several years potentially losing out to other horses so that his new rider could become accustomed to the ride. From all accounts and the quashing of the unedited videos, he along with the knowledgable Germans, was not happy with Totila's performance. From my viewpoint, the magic and the WOW factor just weren't there.

PERHAPS Edward actually knew what he was doing with the horse. Perhaps Totilas has to be ridden the way he was in order to achieve the scores that he did. Perhaps Edward actually does use his legs.

It will be interesting to see what happens in these next few months.

Betonbill, I agree with much of what you say. Why pay millions of dollars for a horse who has posted record-breaking scores and then spend a year or two retraining him. There is no logic in that. What needs to happen is for Rath to be given sufficient time to become acquainted with and adapt to HWKA, not the other way around.

I can only surmise Schoekomohle’s (sp?) thinking regarding Rath’s recent outing. There were bobbles, and a number of people started publicly picking apart Rath, the horse, or both. If I owned Toto, I would be concerned about his reputation being damaged and would not want less than ideal footage of him all over the internet. Removing the video and prohibiting taping at the next event is a logical business move. Putting Toto/Rath in the limelight so soon is what didn’t make a lot of sense to me, and I have a lot of empathy for both horse and rider.

Donella
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:14 PM
PERHAPS Edward actually knew what he was doing with the horse. Perhaps Totilas has to be ridden the way he was in order to achieve the scores that he did. Perhaps Edward actually does use his legs


You know, I really feel bad for Rath because what they are aiming for is not possible (replicating what Gal and Toto had). He's a super amazing young rider and very talented and he rode the horse better than 99 percent of the people out there could I am sure. But what do people expect?

Part of me wants to say "told you so". After the horse sold so many people wanted to see what he would do under a German rider...thinking that the horse would look even better. Lots of the COTHer's are all excited thinking he is going to be "retrained" in a Klassical way. All of these comments implying that someone else can actually do a better job with the horse than Gal did. BS! Gal is amazing in his own right and I doubt anyone will ever ride that horse like Gal did. Will MR learn to ride him well? I would think so. But will we see another Gal/Toto .....I seriously doubt it.

BaroquePony
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:14 PM
HWKA

What does this stand for?

suzy
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:23 PM
Toto's extended trot does not contain actual extension of the foreleg



Donella, I know this isn't your quote but couldn't find where it originated. Anyway, I am in agreement with you that he *is* extending his trot--both upward AND forward. I think that prior to HWKA, we had only seen horses that extended forward. This particular horse has such a greater range of motion compared to his predecessors and current competition that we are seeing something to which we are not accustomed; we are all in awe--some for it and others against.

suzy
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:25 PM
What does this stand for?

LOL. He Who Kicks Ass (aka Totilas)

BaroquePony
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:29 PM
He Who Kicks Ass

:lol:

Brain dead here :yes:

Calamber
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:36 PM
^ ^

no because just like the Germans think Leibniz "invented" calculus, many believe they are the arbiters of "correct" dressage. IOW, if it ain't happening in Germany, it ain't happening :lol:

Don't get me wrong. I loff Germans, their intellect, strength, perseverance and dedication. But at the risk of being politically incorrect, as a nationality, I haven't observed a strong propensity for introspection. But then I am not a perfect observer, by any means.

I think the Germans are correct about Leibniz and calculus. I don't suppose they call it "invented" however. It is a pedagogical principle to which those who know what they are speaking about, do refer. A principle of nature as expressed in the development of the pedagogy of calculus. There, is that better.?

On to the beautiful, if highly suppressed Totilas. See, I am getting with the "correct" language. I would not want to be on too familiar ground with Totilas other than trying to sneak him away from all of these plaster horse people who think that money buys everything. As far as the German Oligarchs knowing true beauty....and the pedagogical principles that would allow it to be replicated in training, naw. They clearly do not even know how to keep the front end of the horse and that all important back end in one seemless, flowing and beautiful manner.

I would really hesitate to paint any nation of people with one broad brush, as much as the German people need to rid themselves of these kind of aristocrats and their influence, you have to appreciate their many sterling qualities. I thought introspection went along with their nature. Where did I get these propensities then, the United States? Yes, by George W., I did!

Freedom of speech, reflection, expression and the right to happiness. BTW, Leibniz was the one who came up with the idea of the rights of a people being the right to happiness..just sayin.

Calamber
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:38 PM
:lol:

Brain dead here :yes:

How do you know where Brain Dead Island is, have you visited here?:lol:

Calamber
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:42 PM
You know, there is a certain amount of validity to that point of view.

At least according to the standards of the FEI and USEF. Judges have to have had competition success at levels comparable to (or sometimes higher than) their judging level. In my experience, those who have never ridden at a given level think perfection is required and focus on the flaws rather appreciating the good stuff. Without being aware of what is involved in an attempt to produce something similar, it is simple to dismiss an effort as imperfect. As part of the analytical process, there is nothing wrong with that. Besides it is human nature. But it is not the whole story. We rarely "catch" people being great in the moment. It takes an educated and experienced eye to do that.

I am not telling the inexperienced to keep quiet. But actually having done it does provide insight.

Just saying ....

I was not suggesting that I should judge the test, nor would I want to be in that particular nasty fight. I was reflecting that it is not a requirment to be a rated judge to be able to express a view regarding the overall look of this horse's manner of going and the direction that the dressag world is taking.

Calamber
Feb. 10, 2011, 03:46 PM
The press officer of Paul Schockemöhle wants the YouTube video to be removed from the Internet. At the next show this weekend NO videocamera's are allowed and only edited videos will be published. The only positive articles in Germany are "Oh well maybe it was to early for Matthias" .

But here on COTH the people are singing Hallelujah :confused:

That is hilarious! I guess they are worried that the Totilas Jones average is going to go down in the "stock" market. What next, top secret training sessions, if you break the code we are going to tie your head to your side and make you go around in circles?;)

AJC
Feb. 10, 2011, 04:03 PM
Donella;
no offense but you do not even know what a hollow back looks like! And you do not know what low trot poles are! Low trot poles are ground poles not ones in the position I had them in. The position that creates maximum movement in the pelvic region of the horse. Which creates a muscle structure that can carry the hindquarter and have a lengthened stride when asked.

As for these images of Toto, only one is correct and videos clearly show that he is not correctly demonstrating an extended trot.

Why is it that 'correct' is so wrong? These are tests that must meet stipulated descriptions...otherwise the movements are not 'correct', instead the movements become flash and glitz without substance.

What a load of total cr@p.
perhaps just concentrate on this for the moment
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/02/09/edward-allan-buck-advocating-bitless-bridle-competition-usa

Lynnwood
Feb. 10, 2011, 04:14 PM
I know that Toto held up to the lifestyle that was competing at the top lvl.

My only concern is for his well being it seems that in order to fill the wishes of his new owner he is going to have to keep that same lvl of training and competition plus a heavy breeding schedule.

I think it shows disregard for the horse.

Paul's reaction to their first outing together tells me that he is going to have Toto and his rider double timing to get it right next time.

You can only feel sorry for the young man and a great horse caught in money based nightmare.

I wonder if that presentation was hard to watch for EG or his previous owners. I'm sure for EG seeing his horse passaged within an inch of insanity and so tense in the neck and back must be frustrating and sad all at the same time.

stolensilver
Feb. 10, 2011, 04:47 PM
I know that Toto held up to the lifestyle that was competing at the top lvl.

My only concern is for his well being it seems that in order to fill the wishes of his new owner he is going to have to keep that same lvl of training and competition plus a heavy breeding schedule.

I think it shows disregard for the horse.

Paul's reaction to their first outing together tells me that he is going to have Toto and his rider double timing to get it right next time.

You can only feel sorry for the young man and a great horse caught in money based nightmare.

I wonder if that presentation was hard to watch for EG or his previous owners. I'm sure for EG seeing his horse passaged within an inch of insanity and so tense in the neck and back must be frustrating and sad all at the same time.

This is such a good post it is worth reading again. I hope Edward Gal didn't cry when he saw Toto in that display. But I think he might have done. :(

BAC
Feb. 10, 2011, 05:14 PM
He's going to be just fine. he looks relaxed and happy:lol:

I thought so too, especially through the neck. I like Rath's riding and think once they have more time together they will form a great partnership.

Lynnwood
Feb. 10, 2011, 05:22 PM
I thought so too, especially through the neck. I like Rath's riding and think once they have more time together they will form a great partnership.

I disagree with that 100% and trust me I have no dog in the fight. I was hoping for the horse and his connections that was the case.

His expression his spark and even his hind leg engagement were just not there. Maybe hes just sore from breeding and being worked more then before. Sadly that isn't going to get easier for him only harder.

I think MR is not to blame and is a very soft and kind rider. The horse is not the same ..then again I did not expect him to be "the same" I was hoping to not see them passaging the living heck of him to appease those in box seats with no sense.

What I see is a horse with talent and a fantastic mentality. Its that same temperment that will keep him performing even if he is not comfortable until he either sours or breaks and that is the part I'm not comfortable with.

suzy
Feb. 11, 2011, 08:08 AM
I know that Toto held up to the lifestyle that was competing at the top lvl.

My only concern is for his well being it seems that in order to fill the wishes of his new owner he is going to have to keep that same lvl of training and competition plus a heavy breeding schedule.

I think it shows disregard for the horse.

Paul's reaction to their first outing together tells me that he is going to have Toto and his rider double timing to get it right next time.

You can only feel sorry for the young man and a great horse caught in money based nightmare.

I wonder if that presentation was hard to watch for EG or his previous owners. I'm sure for EG seeing his horse passaged within an inch of insanity and so tense in the neck and back must be frustrating and sad all at the same time.

Some of the posts I read here are completely bewildering. Do you know who Paul Schockemohle is? Hint: PSI International. He did not get to the top of the equine industry by making stupid decisions. And, after having spent a reported 15 million euros on Totilas, he is unlikely to suddenly start making stupid decisions and risk this huge investment. I can’t think of any horse in the world that is being scrutinized to the extent Totilas is, and PS is certainly well aware of it. It could damage his business irreparably if he screws up.

Do you have some inside information the rest of us don’t have regarding Totilas’ breeding and competition schedule? You seem to make a lot of assumptions without anything to back them up. And, did you actually see the footage of Toto? It was a 6 minute performance, and he was passaging in only a portion of it. Where do you get this idea that a horse is driven to “within an inch of insanity” by being asked to passage!? Particularly a horse that is anything but green to the movement. Sheesh!

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 11, 2011, 10:33 AM
Bravo Suzy!

suzy
Feb. 11, 2011, 10:39 AM
think MR is not to blame and is a very soft and kind rider. The horse is not the same ..then again I did not expect him to be "the same" I was hoping to not see them passaging the living heck of him to appease those in box seats with no sense.



Sorry to the rest of you, but I'm in terrier mode this morning and sooo sick of the nonsense I see spewed here.

How incredibly insulting of you to refer to the spectators at the stallion show as having "no sense." Many of those people are extremely knowledgeable stallion and mare owners and/or topnotch riders. They certainly do know what they are looking at. Before you make such all encompassing statements, I urge you to get out in the world a bit more. :/

Velvet
Feb. 11, 2011, 10:57 AM
Sorry to the rest of you, but I'm in terrier mode this morning and sooo sick of the nonsense I see spewed here.

How incredibly insulting of you to refer to the spectators at the stallion show as having "no sense." Many of those people are extremely knowledgeable stallion and mare owners and/or topnotch riders. They certainly do know what they are looking at. Before you make such all encompassing statements, I urge you to get out in the world a bit more. :/


*pant* Trying..to..get...whip..out of...suzy's...hands.... *pant*

Dang, you're one tough ODQ. :lol:

suzy
Feb. 11, 2011, 11:04 AM
*pant* Trying..to..get...whip..out of...suzy's...hands.... *pant*



Nonsense -- I see the hypodermic needle under your jacket, and I have had my rabies shot! :lol:

Velvet
Feb. 11, 2011, 11:08 AM
...and I have had my rabies shot! :lol:

Could have fooled me, today, with all that foaming at the mouth. Maybe that was just from the beer...

suzy
Feb. 11, 2011, 11:11 AM
Bubbles, not foam. Champagne, sweety!

Velvet
Feb. 11, 2011, 11:12 AM
Bubbles, not foam. Champagne, sweety!

I might believe you if you would unclamp your jaws from around my pant leg! :eek:

BaroquePony
Feb. 11, 2011, 11:45 AM
Posted by Calamber:

On to the beautiful, if highly suppressed Totilas.

:lol:

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 11, 2011, 11:58 AM
Give MR a little time. PS has all the knowledge and access to knowledge there is to be had. If the first things [coaching] dont completely bear fruit there will be an effective plan B put in place with no damage done. MR may not be able to train a horse like EG at this point in his life but they will find the right coaching and I am sure the horse will go well for him in due coarse. Maybe not breaking EG's records but who can tell. So y'all. Easy now!

VCT
Feb. 11, 2011, 01:36 PM
I'm not a dressage person. I'll make that disclaimer upfront.

I think Edward Gal and Totilas were breath-taking. The partnership they had was amazing. I see what people are saying about the trot, but I dunno. I guess my view is that nothing is perfect but if you look at what they were able to accomplish it's just magnificent. On the whole he is just an awe inspiring horse.

Personally, I would like to see him, and actually many dressage horses, slightly less compressed. Just slightly. I just think it would look nicer if they were a little more elongated, a little more relaxed. But, being that I don't ride anywhere near that level, who am I to judge. Perhaps it's totally impossible to achieve those movements without that level of collection.

I think given time Rath will be able to bring out the best in Totilas as well. People like to believe in fairly tales like a certain rider is the only one who can make a fabulous horse go well, etc. But it's just not true 99% of the time. After they have time to get used to each other they will have a special partnership, too. It doesn't need to lessen Gal's accomplishments with an exceptional animal any to admit that.

ETA: It must not be impossible to be less compressed, given I've now found many photos showing the frame I like to see better. But maybe it's just the way Totilas or many modern dressage horses are built.

Here is an example of the feeling that I am talking about:

http://reinbowvalleyfarm.com/myPictures/Weltmeyer%20and%20extended%20trot.bmp

http://www.bridlewoodhanoverians.com/Roma_files/romadour.jpg

http://www.nydressageltd.com/uploads/1/0/9/7/1097827/8949359.jpg

raff
Feb. 11, 2011, 01:44 PM
Does anyone do as well as the original trainer when they end up with the ride of a made GP horse?

Velvet
Feb. 11, 2011, 02:36 PM
VCT, those first two photo links are GREAT!

I always love seeing Weltmeyer. :)

nhwr
Feb. 11, 2011, 06:51 PM
Give MR a little time. PS has all the knowledge and access to knowledge there is to be had. If the first things [coaching] dont completely bear fruit there will be an effective plan B put in place with no damage done. MR may not be able to train a horse like EG at this point in his life but they will find the right coaching and I am sure the horse will go well for him in due coarse. Maybe not breaking EG's records but who can tell. So y'all. Easy now!

one word;

Poetin
She was managed by and sold by PSI after she was "re-possessed". PS did well enough in that deal but it didn't end up very well for the horse. I think the fact that PS is interested in Toto as a semen producer (that is why he is being shown at stalion exhibitions, after all) and MR has invested serious $$ in the rights to compete Toto, doesn't bode well for the horse long term. It doesn't help that mare owners are underwhelmed thus far. That can only result in more pressure for the MR/Toto partnership.

Considering things in those terms gives me a bad feeling.

foggybok
Feb. 11, 2011, 07:30 PM
Me too.

me too :(

RedMare01
Feb. 11, 2011, 07:42 PM
It doesn't help that mare owners are underwhelmed thus far.


Just curious here, what exactly are they underwhelmed by? I am seriously hoping not the ONE foal that we've seen pics of? Because that's just ridiculous. Or do you mean his stud fee or the exhibition ride?

Caitlin

Gestalt
Feb. 11, 2011, 07:58 PM
I'm not a dressage person. I'll make that disclaimer upfront.

Here is an example of the feeling that I am talking about:

http://reinbowvalleyfarm.com/myPictures/Weltmeyer%20and%20extended%20trot.bmp

http://www.bridlewoodhanoverians.com/Roma_files/romadour.jpg

http://www.nydressageltd.com/uploads/1/0/9/7/1097827/8949359.jpg

Wow, I love those pictures! I prefer seeing horses open in the front like in your links. Today's dressage just looks like fancy-steppin' western pleasure.

Lynnwood
Feb. 11, 2011, 08:12 PM
Some of the posts I read here are completely bewildering. Do you know who Paul Schockemohle is? Hint: PSI International. He did not get to the top of the equine industry by making stupid decisions. And, after having spent a reported 15 million euros on Totilas, he is unlikely to suddenly start making stupid decisions and risk this huge investment. I can’t think of any horse in the world that is being scrutinized to the extent Totilas is, and PS is certainly well aware of it. It could damage his business irreparably if he screws up.

Do you have some inside information the rest of us don’t have regarding Totilas’ breeding and competition schedule? You seem to make a lot of assumptions without anything to back them up. And, did you actually see the footage of Toto? It was a 6 minute performance, and he was passaging in only a portion of it. Where do you get this idea that a horse is driven to “within an inch of insanity” by being asked to passage!? Particularly a horse that is anything but green to the movement. Sheesh!

Oh my sweetheart you certainly get your knickers in a knot over this one.

I think vapid would be the best way to describe your ranting. Since clearly you have such a personal relationship with PS that you know that his actions are only done with the horses best interest in mind? Now about your flamboyant behavior about how much the horse was passaged read the REST of the thread .. oh and the one in the SHB forum there were plenty of people who thought the amount of time in passage might have been excessive. I think PS's reaction to a virgin performance for the pair speaks volumes about how he views this situation. "Pull the video down.. no cameras at the next show" :lol:


one word;

Poetin
She was managed by and sold by PSI after she was "re-possessed". PS did well enough in that deal but it didn't end up very well for the horse. I think the fact that PS is interested in Toto as a semen producer (that is why he is being shown at stalion exhibitions, after all) and MR has invested serious $$ in the rights to compete Toto, doesn't bode well for the horse long term. It doesn't help that mare owners are underwhelmed thus far. That can only result in more pressure for the MR/Toto partnership.

Considering things in those terms gives me a bad feeling.

I think in terms of Toto I'd wage dollars to Deutsche Mark's and Suzy this is where you are right .. if his performance career dose not equal or usurp his prior(and risk tarnishing the horse as a super sire or PS reputation) he will be quickly retired. My statement was that I hope for the HORSES sake and MR's that they do find a way to be successful without sacrificing his well being in that hight stress house of cards they have built.

Donella
Feb. 11, 2011, 08:29 PM
Today's dressage just looks like fancy-steppin' western pleasure.


:rolleyes:

suzy
Feb. 12, 2011, 10:27 AM
Since clearly you have such a personal relationship with PS that you know that his actions are only done with the horses best interest in mind? .

You have misinterpreted my post. Of course, I don't have a personal relationship with PS. But common sense AND good business practices make it in PS's best interests to take exceptionally good care of that horse. I seriously doubt there was sentiment involved in the purchase. PS is a successful businessman who wants a fair ROI. To get that return, he has to take good care of his investment. It's that simple. The fact that he has been so successful in this business for so many years indicates he has done a lot of things right. It would make no sense for him to start screwing up. Especially with the whole world looking on.

As far as the deal Rath has with PS to ride Toto, I have no idea. Has anyone outside of PS's inner circle actually seen the contract? Highly doubtful but a few posters seem to think they know. ;)

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Feb. 12, 2011, 10:31 AM
Bravo Suzy once again!

Enderle
Feb. 12, 2011, 11:02 AM
Just curious here, what exactly are they underwhelmed by? I am seriously hoping not the ONE foal that we've seen pics of? Because that's just ridiculous. Or do you mean his stud fee or the exhibition ride?
It's the whole package I think. A very high stud fee, and - carefully said - a disappointing first show.
Yes, true, there are good reasons why it was the way it is, but it is still Totilas and all the "wonderhorse" marketing PS is investing in (as an example: a german daily, normally not horse related, had a Totilas-poster, news coverage about everything Totilas-related ist huge) doesn't help MR to live up the expectations.

About the first filly - I haven't heard anything else as "cute, let's have a look in three years".

nhwr
Feb. 12, 2011, 11:50 AM
suzy,

Most breeding stallions don't compete much, if at all. Even so it is not an easy life, it's fairly stressful and stallions are frequently injured.

The dynamic with Totilas is far different than normal. The horse was a sensation with Gal. PS reportedly paid a king's ransom for him. MR reportedly paid a small fortune for the ride. There has been a lot of hype about the horse. PS undoubtedly has a business plan, one that includes a stud fee of 8,000 euros. People thought Sandro Hit's fee was high at 2,500 euros. The horse simply must justify himself to command that rate. Otherwise people will be of the opinion that Gal is responsible for Toto's past brilliance. Mare owners won't pay 8,000 euros for that. And PS isn't going to let that happen. So the horse will have an incredibly tough schedule.

Other thing that is hard to communicate is the pride that is undoubtably associated with this whole situation. PS is a business man, for sure. But there is more than a little ego at stake here.

IMO, it is a set up for a serious problem. I hope I am wrong.
Time will tell.

ridgeback
Feb. 12, 2011, 11:54 AM
Guess you guys have not read the article when they talked about how things are not what is gossiped. Rath's step mother OWNS the horse with Paul.

Lynnwood
Feb. 12, 2011, 01:52 PM
Guess you guys have not read the article when they talked about how things are not what is gossiped. Rath's step mother OWNS the horse with Paul.

His stepmother bought into the horse to pay for the ability for MR to be the rider. What she owns is the performance part of the stallion.

As said before I hope for the young mans sake and especially the horse since he is the only party that can not talk or defend himself that things go well for him.

Lynnwood
Feb. 12, 2011, 01:58 PM
Otherwise people will be of the opinion that Gal is responsible for Toto's past brilliance. Mare owners won't pay 8,000 euros for that. And PS isn't going to let that happen. So the horse will have an incredibly tough schedule.

Other thing that is hard to communicate is the pride that is undoubtably associated with this whole situation. PS is a business man, for sure. But there is more than a little ego at stake here.

IMO, it is a set up for a serious problem. I hope I am wrong.
Time will tell.


If MR and Toto don't shine...what then. It would be a cold day in hell that PS would concede that the Germans were simply being out ridden.

MR is young and will have a good career Toto or not. The horse is the only one that stands without defense while the powers that be play out their little fantasy games.

Donella
Feb. 12, 2011, 02:59 PM
The horse simply must justify himself to command that rate. Otherwise people will be of the opinion that Gal is responsible for Toto's past brilliance. Mare owners won't pay 8,000 euros for that. And PS isn't going to let that happen. So the horse will have an incredibly tough schedule

Honestly, breeders could care less how the horse went with Rath. The horse "justified" himself when he broke the world record lol!!. The horse is a freak of nature and Gal brought the best of that horse out. But I strongly doubt there is a breeder anywhere who would say that Totilas is not inherently spectacular.

The only thing breeders are "overwhelmed by" is his stud fee. Unfortunately for most of us, ten k just to try and get a mare in foal with no LFG is a bit too risky. If I were braver, I would use him in a heartbeat.

Velvet
Feb. 12, 2011, 07:18 PM
*yawn*

Bored now.... people calling other replies vapid (love the term, but when used by someone who by all appearances fits the second quote in my sig line)... *snore*

ridgeback
Feb. 12, 2011, 07:40 PM
His stepmother bought into the horse to pay for the ability for MR to be the rider. What she owns is the performance part of the stallion.

As said before I hope for the young mans sake and especially the horse since he is the only party that can not talk or defend himself that things go well for him.

Clearly you did not read the article where they were interviewed..You got it wrong my friend.
see below

From emotion back to business. Schockemohle and Linsenhoff explained that they paid no such thing for riding or sports rights nor for breeding rights. They two-some decided on co-ownership even though it is not a fifty-fifty deal they disclosed.

"I’m happy that Paul agreed to create a partnership," said Linsenhoff. "It’s a co-ownership. We divide everything including stud fee. Everything about the money we divide. We’re together in one boat. That’s why we created this co-ownership."

nhwr
Feb. 12, 2011, 08:35 PM
Are you suggesting Rath would be riding him if his step mum wasn't involved?
I think that is unlikely. More to the point, I'd bet MR thinks so too.

The fact that they are sharing a portion of everything only adds to the pressure, particularly if Schockemöhle is the majority partner, which I'm virtually certain he is.

ridgeback
Feb. 12, 2011, 09:11 PM
Are you suggesting Rath would be riding him if his step mum wasn't involved?
I think that is unlikely. More to the point, I'd bet MR thinks so too.

The fact that they are sharing a portion of everything only adds to the pressure, particularly if Schockemöhle is the majority partner, which I'm virtually certain he is.

Umm clearly it is since some said they bought the rights to ride him only..and as the interview shows they are co-owners splitting breeding etc. lol

What I'm suggesting is some need to get their facts straight. It's called spreading the risk...lol But I'm sure their are some crystal ball readings among us and will tell us how it really is...rolling eyes

"Everything about the money we divide. We’re together in one boat. That’s why we created this co-ownership."

MelantheLLC
Feb. 12, 2011, 10:28 PM
Just FYI, from Matthias' website:


Totilas: Successful performance with standing ovations

Dear fans,

yesterday was a special day. It was the first time that I could perform with Totilas in front of an audience.

About 3.000 people attended the stallionshow in Vechta. So it was a great experience to see how Totilas reacts in such a surrounding.

He directly knew that he is in the spotlight and his concentration and volition was much more than 100%. That was a real great feeling and tha makes him so special! Some sections really worked perfect, others I have to go on working in the next weeks and months. All in all it was an amazing show with lots of applause and standing ovations at the end of our short presentation. I became a gooseflesh - and I think Totilas got one too! We are more than satisfied with our ongoing development of the last six weeks when our training was very intensive and harmonically.

Here (http://www.fohlenboerse.de/de/horse-tivi/horse-tivi-archiv/totilas.html) you can find a video of Vechta.

Totilas now enjoys two free days while I study in Frankfurt. On Wednesday I will be back in Mühlen until the end of the week, when we will have another show in Vechta.

See you soon and all the best,

Matthias

I don't speak German so I have no idea what the video says. Apparently it's "approved" by PS. ;)

Fun to see Toto get off the box--what an amazing brain that horse has. Just as cool as any cowpony ready to do his job. If he passes that along, as well as his movement-- well, dressage really will never be the same.