My fortune made ... easy millions the gypsy vanner way [Archive]

hansiska

Jan. 26, 2004, 06:49 AM

When I lived in Ireland (1989-90) I remember being struck by these horses' appearance -- it's hard not to notice a large, spotted horse when there's a lush, green backdrop... But it was equally hard not to notice their owners' poverty. More often than not, I saw these horses being driven or grazed in and around Irish cities by their owners, whose threadbare clothes, rail thinness, and unkempt appearance indicated to me that they were most likely homeless. They grazed the horses in public parks and along roadsides and drove them through city streets teeming with cars. I guessed that they used horses because they could not afford cars, although I suppose they also had a long tradition of using horses.

Often these people were labelled "tinkers," "knackers," or "gypsies" by the locals and it was clear to me that these were not well-though-of or respected groups, though I believe the gypsies in Ireland are proud of their nomadic lifestyles. I don't know where they kept their horses, but I think they just travelled with them or stayed in the parks with them. Most of the horses seemed accustomed to grazing on a tether, and probably slept that way.

Once I was walking in Phoenix Park in Dublin by myself. There was a man walking a little dog named Jenny. She was a small dog with a jaunty walk and happy expression, I remember thinking as they passed me that she was quite cute. No sooner had they passed me then Jenny ran into the road and was struck by a car. She lay twitching on her side in the road. Luckily the driver stopped and insisted on taking Jenny and her owner to the vet, and off they went. I was horrified at seeing the whole thing and thought I might faint. I sat down on a fence that lined the road.

I must have looked white as a sheet. The next thing I knew, two of these "tinkers" walked their big spotted horse over to ask if I was alright. To be quite honest, I'd been generally suspicious of this group, and now here they were offering me comfort. I often think of them when I see these "Gypsy Vanners" for sale for big $$$$. I wonder if they were paid fairly for their horses and if the people who imported them to the states knew that the horses played such a large role in their lives. They seemed to me like all these people had in the world.

MyShadeOfPink

Jan. 26, 2004, 06:56 AM

I've always wanted a Gypsy Vanner.

Am I stupid for wanting one? Maybe

Do I still want one even though their just black and white horses with big feet? Yep

Edited to add: hansiska that was a beautiful post. You are truly right.

Jennie
"all these lines fall short of what i had in mind
a failed attempt to capsulize a feeling
so i just try fail and try and try again"
See my albulm Updated 11/11 (http://community.webshots.com/user/myshadeofpink)

Galileo1998

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:07 AM

When I lived in England I went to the Appleby Gypsy horse fair and have some amazing pictures from it.

Anne

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:09 AM

Funny that the OP mentioned Breyer horses.

Not long after the marketing scheme was introduced to the US, a well-known "customizer" of Breyer horses resculpted and painted one to look like a GV. She then listed it on eBay, suggesting that the purchaser could show it in model horse shows as a GV. The GV people were INFLAMED and threatened her with legal action for using the name "gypsy vanner".

For awhile on the official GV website, they listed some conformation "attributes" that made the GV such a great breed... things like a short neck and a straight shoulder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kels

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:11 AM

Anne yes! That's what I am talking about http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Do you remember who the customizer was? I am trying to, but cannot...

-Kelsey-
Tomorrow's another day, and I'm thirsty anyway; so bring on the rain.

pippi

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:20 AM

haniska, what a wonderful story. It reminds me of the homeless people I see donwtown with dogs. The dogs are all these people have. I think animals flourish living with their owners 24/7.

Proud member: Riders of Rohan

slc2

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:27 AM

they don't really flourish. i know plenty of those people. those dogs don't flourish. what romantic nonsense.

the tinkers or travelers of ireland aren't making the money off the horses being sold here, people. they don't get **** out of this scam. don't kid yourself for one single second that they do.

the horses are similar to american western chunks, same color pattern and heft. they are just common ole cart horses.

i would watch yourself around the travelers. they aren't above robbing you - you are an outsider, but they do take care of each other.

SaddleFitterVA

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:36 AM

JE,

I like! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Pity I suck at selling horses, we could go into a partnership.

Mel

Big Belgian

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:36 AM

From what I have seen about the GV's, they are the "flavor of the decade" breed that is surely going to go downhill in quality as soon as the market becomes flooded with breeders trying to jump on this cash cow.

People are under the romantic notion that there is something magical about this breed and are blinded by all the fluffy feathers and abundance of mane and tail.

I have seen some very well put together GV's, but they are not the norm for what I am seeing being bred over here. Every colt is being marketed as a "stallion prospect" and every filly that has a uterus will be a fabulous broodmare. What happened to breeding for quality conformation? That gets dumped down the toilet when people think they are going to get rich selling what is hot on the market today.

www.artistichandstudio.com/tylerspage.jpg (http://www.artistichandstudio.com/tylerspage.jpg)

Where Blondes DO Have More Fun!

mwalshe

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>More often than not, I saw these horses being driven or grazed in and around Irish cities by their owners, whose threadbare clothes, rail thinness, and unkempt appearance indicated to me that they were most likely homeless. They grazed the horses in public parks and along roadsides and drove them through city streets teeming with cars. I guessed that they used horses because they could not afford cars, although I suppose they also had a long tradition of using horses.

Often these people were labelled "tinkers," "knackers," or "gypsies" by the locals and it was clear to me that these were not well-though-of or respected groups, though I believe the gypsies in Ireland are proud of their nomadic lifestyles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, let me 'splain.

Gypsies are gypsies, ie Romanies from eastern Europe who speak Romany and are a fairly specific ethnic group. They are often badly treated in their home countries and it is expected that a few hundred thousand will attenpt to emigrate when the new EU reg.s go through. Many gypsies are not nomadic at all.

The travelers in Ireland (tinker isn't too PC and knacker is REALLY not PC) are ethnically Irish for the most part (although many speak another language of their own), they choose to live in caravans, on the move etc. and they exist outside mainstream society but not in the way gypsies do.

There have been numerous attempts to resettle the travelers to the extent of giving families free houses. In general they move on almost immediately, alhtough lately less do so.

They are somewhat unpopular for various reasons. They camp on private property or public land for long periods of time and trash it (graze livestock, no toilet facilities, litter etc). They are high levels of wife/ child abuse, most of the children beg on the streets for money and seldom attend school. There is a fair bit of crime associated with many traveler camps, although they may not regard it as so (stole our dog once). There are traveler families in the US too, maybe they are the ones who started this whole thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

They have always had horses and probably always will. They generally use them for driving, not riding. Most traveler families have cars as well.

To romanticize either the gypsy or traveler way of life to sell horses that are worth a few hundred dollars for tens of thousands is laughable to me!

carepnoctumstable

Jan. 26, 2004, 07:58 AM

HI,
If you are seriuos about buying some and shipping them to the US please e-mail me privatly if you can.I am very intersted in this.Thanks-Nicole http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Delyth

Jan. 26, 2004, 08:09 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Posting Trot

Jan. 26, 2004, 08:20 AM

Does anyone remember the movie about the Irish R&B cover band (fictional) The Contusions (not really) or something like that? There's a wonderful scene in which one of the band members, who lives in public housing in Dublin, gets into the elevator to go to his apartment. Someone calls for him to hold the door, and he does, and in walks a teenager leading a large cart-pony. The band member gives him this look like he's crazy, and the guy leading the pony says, "Ach, he can't take the stairs; it'd kill him!" And the door closes behind them.

There's real poverty in Ireland (as well as affluence); and the urban areas still have quite a bit of the rural left in them.

Alagirl

Jan. 26, 2004, 08:35 AM

I think it was on *Horsetails* on AP they showed the problem of kids in Dublin housing (people silos!) having horses, letting them run free on the lawns there - sometimes they get into the street...

In the middle of Dublin is a horsemarket...like in the olden days, 50-60 years ago....

One could only go http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif especialy when the law roled in, rounding up all ponies, under cover of darkness, hauling the hoofers off to the pound, shrouded in secrecy, their *Eastermoney*....totaly ticked...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Talk Spotted Dogs
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdalmatianplantationmessageboardfrm1

Anne

Jan. 26, 2004, 08:45 AM

Kels, do the initials LJJ ring any bells for you? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If not, PT me!

Kryswyn

Jan. 26, 2004, 09:03 AM

Sounds like the bloom is off the Freisian rose LOL!

Don't remember the movie about the Contusions, but there is an almost identical scene (and I swear the same dialog) in "Into the West" which starred Gabriel Byrnes.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

hansiska

Jan. 26, 2004, 09:03 AM

Thanks for enlightening us, Hobbes. I had a feeling those terms weren't so PC -- hence the quotes. Also I should have made the distinction between the gypsies as a distinct ethnic group and other travellers or homeless.

Posting Trot, that movie was The Commitments... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I forgot about that one!

mwalshe

Jan. 26, 2004, 09:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> There's real poverty in Ireland (as well as affluence); and the urban areas still have quite a bit of the rural left in them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually the horses in the inner city was a short term thing (late 80s early 90s). Sort of a fad. There were huge problems b/c those kids didn't have a clue how to take care of the ponies and horses and they were dying like flies (ponies not the kids).

There are now laws about boarding and there were stables etc. set up. I believe quite a few kids are still into horses.

slc2

Jan. 26, 2004, 10:02 AM

there are still some around. i even saw some inner city ponies some years back in philadelphia, USA.

Therese

Jan. 26, 2004, 10:14 AM

Anne, Kels,

I'm 99.9% sure the customizer was LJJ. It was a big issue that was discussed at length on Haynet.

I remember being in Germany at the time and in each copy of the Pferd Market there were literally 100s of the "Tinker" or "Vanner" horses, for just above meat price. The "Stallion" prospects went for maybe $1500 US.

Marketing, it's an amazing thing... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

- Therese

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now! - Zaphod Beeblebrox in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

mwalshe

Jan. 26, 2004, 10:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> there are still some around. i even saw some inner city ponies some years back in philadelphia, USA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes there will alwyas be horses in Dublin. But the days of them living in high rise tower blocks and the like are over.

Bells

Jan. 26, 2004, 01:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Does anyone remember the movie about the Irish R&B cover band (fictional) The Contusions (not really) or something like that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be "The Commitments" - fun movie.

Rose

Kels

Jan. 26, 2004, 01:12 PM

armandh

Jan. 26, 2004, 02:12 PM

the movie was the "The Commitments" 1991 fox release 118 minutes

more hay, less grain

The Pie

Jan. 26, 2004, 03:21 PM

Awwwwh, you guys have ruined it for me. I've been admiring Gypsy Vanners from afar for a few years now. If I won the lottery, they'd be #1 on my list of horse purchases. Am I crazy? They're sooooo CUTE, who cares how much they cost and if they're legit . . . a horse is worth what someone is willing to pay. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Throw your heart over the fence and your horse will follow"

Anne

Jan. 26, 2004, 03:28 PM

Therese, I am 100% sure that it was Laurie, I just didn't know if Kels would connect the initials with the person. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

xeroxchick

Jan. 26, 2004, 03:40 PM

There is a terrific book by Isabel Fonseca about Roms - Gypsies called "Bury Me Standing," ('cuz I've been on my knees all my life) Not much about horses, but they are a real group and are in the US as well. Robert Duvall made a movie with actual gypsies in it called "Love, Angelo." When you describe the irish tinkers I think of Brad Pitt in "Snatch." They are quite a bunch. Capable of thinking up this whole new breed scam, and I hope they clean up with it.

fernie fox

Jan. 26, 2004, 04:13 PM

Whoa xeroxchick.

This scam was NOT started by the Irish.

Some Americans went on holiday to UK,and found some paint horses,that MAY have been owned by travellers,in a field in on the Welsh borders.

Then came the great ""AMERICAN Marketing job".

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

fernie fox

Jan. 26, 2004, 04:18 PM

Here is a link.click on the European business trip.

one version of how it started. (http://www.gypsyvannerhorse.com/content.html)

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

MistyBlue

Jan. 26, 2004, 04:32 PM

Someome just opened a newer Gypsy horse farm here in CT.
I almost ended up with one without even knowing it this past November. My husband was dickering with the owner of one at the Equine Affaire in Mass. I had just found him after he had wandered away and was petting some hairy horses while I thought he was inncocently chatting with an owner. I the overheard sales talk...and broke up the party quick. Hubby thought the chestnut and white coming 2 year old VERY fuzzy filly, built like an oil barrel, would be the GREATEST gift for our ten year old daughter's first horse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Ack! Of course, this is the same man, bless his poor misguided heart, who THINKS he's getting a a Friesian trail horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
The horse owner at the Affaire did say something about some person who had "rights" to the breed name Gypsy Vanner and that everyone else had to call them Gypsy Horses or Irish Tinkers or the big ones as Gypsy Drum Horses. Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but the person with "name rights' was residing in Florida?

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
80's Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

wanderlust

Jan. 26, 2004, 04:36 PM

A friend of mine has imported a couple of them. They are super-cheap, and they make fantastic kids ponies. Her 6-year old daughter and her buddies could crawl all over these ponies (supervised, of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), and they were perfectly stoic about it. Never a flinch or a pinned ear, and never a foot put wrong.

Are they worth a fortune? Depends on what you are looking for. The two I had the experience of knowing were worth their weight in gold to my friend and her daughter. Plus, they are incredibly cute. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Edited to add link to photo of one of the aforementioned Irish Tinkers: http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jeannebean96/detail?.dir=/c81a&.dnm=c671.jpg

~formerly Master Tally~

BLBGP

Jan. 26, 2004, 04:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fernie fox:
Here is a link.click on the European business trip.

http://www.gypsyvannerhorse.com/content.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I had no idea they were "magical". No wonder they sell for so much. Do you automatically get three wishes or do you rub their cute furry butts for a genie? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

poltroon

Jan. 26, 2004, 05:10 PM

hitchinmygetalong

Jan. 26, 2004, 05:19 PM

I saw one at a driving show. She was a breathtakingly gorgeous mare with a mane down to her knees and a forelock past her nose. She had PERFECT manners, was super in harness, and her owner loved her to pieces - it was evident in everything they did together.

So you folks that are jumping all over this marketing scheme and how people are being rooked into paying big money for basically someone else's trash - why don't you just back off. So what if the Gypsy Vanner isn't your cup of tea? So what if you wouldn't pay meat price for one of them? Go take a look at the horse that is standing at your back gate. The one that you love, the one that you care for. The next person down the road may not give a tinker's damn (sorry, couldn't resist) for it, but YOU love it, and that's what counts.

I have a horse that many would just shrug their shoulders, say "not worth a dime," and walk away from. But he is my heart and soul, and priceless to me.

Let those people buy these horses that have obviously stolen their hearts and stop snickering at them. Who cares what people pay for them? Who cares what they do with them? As long as they LOVE THEM, that's what counts.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Xanthoria

Jan. 26, 2004, 05:28 PM

hitch, nobody's mocking the horses - they're shaking their heads at the ballsy marketing ploy.

fernie fox

Jan. 26, 2004, 05:46 PM

Same as Xanthoria.

Even though I am a Brit. I am ashamed to see the US folks getting gypped..again.

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

slc2

Jan. 26, 2004, 05:57 PM

30 grand for a five hundred dollar horse is not just well-i-love-sparky-he's-my-pal-we-frolick-in-the-flowers stuff. it's a rip off. plain and simple.

the americans buying these horses are buying them as an investment, so they can sell them for 5 figures to other people who think they are valuable. it's basically a pyramid scheme.

a horse being spotted or having a long mane does not make it worth 30 grand.

RHdobes

Jan. 26, 2004, 08:06 PM

Gypsy Tanner, Norwegian Fjord, Haflinger, Friesian, Icelandic Horse, Warmblood-with-a-name-not-yet-made-popular, they've all been the 'flavor of the month.'

I'd be MORE impressed by someone who bought a few GTs, showed them, did well, and then had people come to ask about them. NOT 'come buy the horse of the future NOW!' ploy that seems to come with the hunt for $$$.

It's kinda like....putting the cart before the horse!

Smigget

Jan. 26, 2004, 08:44 PM

Horse Illustrated did a breed profile on Gypsy Vanners not long ago, and they have a lot of ads for them in the back.

~~~~~~
Member of the Lurker's Clique and the Non-GPA Clique

nightsong

Jan. 26, 2004, 08:57 PM

This is the breed that's most often found abandoned (like dogs) by the English animal control people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love is all there is

fernie fox

Jan. 26, 2004, 08:59 PM

RHdobes.

You've lost me,what are GTs?.

All I can think of is Gin and Tonics,and I've never walked away from them.

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

Palomino Leopard WB

Jan. 26, 2004, 09:22 PM

I was just rinting the schedule for the CA Equine Affair and noticed that they had breed presentations listed for the GV if anyone ins interested in taking a look.
In defense if anyone has inpored a horse you know that minimally you are perhaps looking at 5,000. so you have to add that to the price of the horse.
I found the HI article interesting that breeders are actually selling these horses that are basically grade horses as something special. But we all know that if a person loves a particular horse then who really cares what the papers are.

Celtic Witch

Jan. 26, 2004, 09:46 PM

My problem with the sellers/breeders of coloured cobs (conveniently "named" for the US market) is the great deal of lies.

Most are listed as possessing 5 generations of "champion" breeding. Excellent coloured cob breeding is when the breeder knew which colt got to his mare! I have had many cobs in England for riding schools and none had papers of any sort outside of their veterinary passport which contained no breeding information and only an estimated age.

While some are handsome animals, they are not sporthorses (which many are sold as) with generation upon generation of proven, highly selective breeding. Many can easily be bought for $250 off a roadside and a riding school I managed bought a pair of coloured cobs for two quid three years ago.

These are hardly five figure animals, though if that's what the importers get for them, more power to them. Its up to the consumer to educate themselves and I have no problem with the profit margin as long as the sellers are honest.

Susie

Royal Oak Sporthorses (http://)
Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.

Chaser

Jan. 27, 2004, 03:29 AM

I absolutely agree, Celtic Witch.

I wonder why there aren't already cobs (coloured or not) in the US? I get the impression that there are the TBs, QHs and other light breeds on the one hand, and the heavy dray breeds on the other. Why aren't there many cobs?

In the UK if you want an "ordinary" horse, by which I mean one which you can hack out safely, take to fun shows, has a good temperament and is cheap to buy and look after, you put a cob top of the list, and they are found all over the place -- not just from gypsies. Given that they are the everyday horse here, why didn't they make it over the Atlantic with the other breeds/types?

The unusual coloured horses in the UK are quality TB or arab types (Paints?). These are much more expensive because we don't have as many of them. They are often imported American stock or bred from American lines. Having said that, they do not cost as much as Gypsy Vanners.

Oakleigh

Jan. 27, 2004, 03:49 AM

One of the "original to the US" breeders of vanners lives about 25 minutes from me. Very nice couple, lovely facilities and lovely horses. They compete in local driving events with them.

I don't remember the whole story with these horses, but I believe this couple had to pay an additional amount to that person who holds the GV name in the US, for every mare imported.

There are Cobb breeders here in the US. One of the biggest is near my house. Celia Evans and Dragon Lair Farm breeds Welsh and Cobbs that show all over the US. In fact, she owns the six white Welsh horses that pull Cinderella's coach at Disney World. DW leases them from her. Pretty cool...

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Superior Sport Horse Prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

Kels

Jan. 27, 2004, 05:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anne:
Therese, I am 100% sure that it was Laurie, I just didn't know if Kels would connect the initials with the person. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anne- I didn't see your post until after I saw Therese's- and a day later http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yep I know who LJJ is, she's fantastic. I showed one of her CMs for a friend at Breyerfest a few years ago.

-Kelsey-
Tomorrow's another day, and I'm thirsty anyway; so bring on the rain.

monstrpony

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:26 AM

About 40 years ago, at the tender age of 12, I'd gotten my very first, very own registered QH mare. She wasn't anything spectacular as QH go, but had a heart of gold and I adored her. A good friend of my mothers, a horsewoman from NZ, came to see my wonderful mare. Her comment to my mother, on seeing this prized, registered example of the domestic breed-of-choice in the US was "Ach, she's no'but a wee cob!"

So don't tell me we don't have cobs in this country!

___________
He's not really a pony, and I'm really not "pony aged" either.

slc2

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:29 AM

well cob as far as not so tall, but i don't think there is much similarity between the average qh and the average cob.

fernie fox

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:47 AM

Well,I don't think I have seen ,what I would call A "native US Cob[one B please].

But there certainly are some in the pipeline.

Most of the draught cross youngsters that I am now seeing from the PMU farms are going to turn out to be what in UK we mean by a nice looking COB.

In UK.the COB ,is a type of horse.Usually draught cross.Very honest and even tempered,and ideal for a lot of folks to have fun with,without hotblooded temperament.

They are shown ,clean legged[ie.feathers trimmed,no fluffy hairy legs,and often with a hogged mane]

The height is ideally around 15.1.They will often have a very workman like head,but always a solid leg at each corner sort of guy.

In the Uk.it is a very hotly contested Class,at the shows.

Now the Welsh Cob is a whole different ball game.They have been bred for generations,and to me are less draughty looking.But definately a thing of great beauty.

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

Chaser

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:56 AM

In addition to Show Cobs, there are just ... cobs - generally hairy. These are the ones I was thinking about when I said they are relatively cheap etc. Show cobs are popular, good ones are rare and they do cost more.

Here are a few everyday cobs:

Gallery 1: Puzzle

Gallery 2: Whisky, Harley

Gallery 3: Belle

There may be others. I didn't go through the whole listing.

Gallery (http://www.saddle-up.org.uk/Gallery/gallery-1.htm)

monstrpony

Jan. 27, 2004, 07:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fernie fox:

In UK.the COB ,is a type of horse....Very honest and even tempered,and ideal for a lot of folks to have fun with,without hotblooded temperament.

The height is ideally around 15.1.They will often have a very workman like head,but always a solid leg at each corner sort of guy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is the type of description Es was thinking of when she called my QH mare a cob. She really was pretty coarse for a QH, and that was a while ago, there were alot of coarser QHs around then.

Anyhow, she was calling her a cob, not a Cob. A type of horse.

My point is that we do have that type of horse in this country, many of us grew up on them. We just don't value them or make any attempt to recognize them as a type. Our loss. (and then we turn around and fall for a marketing ploy like the GV. Maybe we deserve it)

The TR program that my equestrian club volunteers with just got a new mare that I'm certain is a PMU product, a draft cross, about 15.2, solid as a rock. An extremely practical kind of horse, I'd love to kidnap her to have to ride thru the woods and keep easily in my backyard. I just wish we valued this type as it deserves.

___________
He's not really a pony, and I'm really not "pony aged" either.

CoolMeadows

Jan. 27, 2004, 07:47 AM

Yes, the term cob just means a large, square bodied horse with short legs and can be applied to a horse of any breeding that fits the bill.

Welsh Cobs are a true breed and I agree with fernie fox, they are a thing of great beauty! Might be a little biased... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif They are also easily found and often cheap in the UK, mine came from a dealer's yard near London and as many times as I've tried to find out his true breeding, the story has changed from he's a Welsh/Tb cross to he's all Welsh to he came from a Welsh hillside as a yearling, to he was bought at a local auction in a group of weanlings to he came from a family in Ireland. So I guess I will never know but he's been the love of my life since I was 12 and is the namesake for my farm.

Tinker horses... I think they're cute enough but don't have a desire to own one, especially not for $20k.

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

mwalshe

Jan. 27, 2004, 09:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Gypsy Tanner, Norwegian Fjord, Haflinger, Friesian, Icelandic Horse, Warmblood-with-a-name-not-yet-made-popular, they've all been the 'flavor of the month.'
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gypsy Vanners are NOT a "breed". They are simply a little bit of everything usually, maybe part TB, part pony etc. If you get one with 5 generations of papers (unless it's a 5th generation US bred) then they are "unofficial" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif(I don't get sued by these people). Becuase of the EU laws, such a thing could not come from Europe. The Irish Cob Society has only been in existance since 1998. (http://www.irishcobsociety.com/frameset.htm)

As for cobs: I have seen foundation stock QHs which are very cob like, they are some sort of special registry within the QH breed apparently?

[This message was edited by Hobbes on Jan. 27, 2004 at 12:42 PM.]

[This message was edited by Hobbes on Jan. 27, 2004 at 12:44 PM.]

JockoHorse

Jan. 27, 2004, 09:15 AM

Check out this website:

Black Forest Shires and Gypsy Horses (http://www.gypsyhorses.com/)

Last year BFS bought a load of grade shire mares out of a feedlot in Illinois, bred them to Warrior and sold them for big bucks. Your very own Gypsy Drum Horse! Now that is a marketing scheme.

I have visited their farm and while these gypsy cobs (whatever) are very cute, I certainly would not pay 5 figures for a what is essentially a colored pony with lots of hair. But that is just me.

mwalshe

Jan. 27, 2004, 09:27 AM

The "history" of the "gypsies" on that website is very inaccurate. With all the discrimination gypsies face today, I think that a falsified version of their lives should not be used like that!

Romanies are mainly eastern European, not Irish or English. I have personally NEVER heard of the "Claddagh Gypsies" of Galway, Claddagh (http://homepage.tinet.ie/~claddaghns/ourvillage.htm) is a fishing town, lol, and the only colored caravans you see on the roads these days have tourists in them!

[This message was edited by Hobbes on Jan. 27, 2004 at 12:35 PM.]

JuniorJumper01

Jan. 27, 2004, 10:13 AM

Ok, here we go.

My aunt bought a GV filly (Cushti Bok x Crown Darby; the Gypsy King is her grandsire) a couple years ago from Dennis and Cindy Thompson at their farm (Gypsy Gold) in Ocala. Cindy is now, unfortunately, deceased, so please watch what you say about the business she helped bring to America. Dennis and Cindy do own the rights to the Gypsy Vanner Registry.

The GV's are nice horses, not worth the money they're going for IMO, but if someone wants to drop $30K on an untrained and green horse, then more power to you. My aunt's filly is sweet, learns new things quickly, and is very level headed; something that's a definite plus with an animal so heavy.

Her is my aunt's GV: Bali (http://www.vannercentral.com/bali.htm)

If you have any questions, let me know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Flash44

Jan. 27, 2004, 10:48 AM

Another wonderful gypsy movie, Snatch, featuring Brad Pitt often shirtless...they lived in mobile campers, not horse drawn caravans. Great flick.

Flash44

Jan. 27, 2004, 10:59 AM

What is it about some of these horses that they remind me of Afghan hounds?

Coreene

Jan. 27, 2004, 11:01 AM

A tinker by another name. Gotta love it. The Dutch are all over this tinker thing as well.

hitchinmygetalong

Jan. 27, 2004, 12:58 PM

I'm sorry folks, but I think they are very attractive and worthy of their own breed designation. So what if some of them are "mutts" - many breeds (like the Morgan!) started out that way.

You know, I'm beginning to see some similarities in the dissenting posts in this thread and the Freisian cross thread...

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Hop On Pop

Jan. 27, 2004, 01:49 PM

Has anyone seen the movie "Into the west" This reminds me of it alot.. I LOFF that moie! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Proud member of the Traffic Cone Preservation Society

And the I loff Ponies clique
And the Pony riders clique!

!!!

Xanthoria

Jan. 27, 2004, 04:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chaser:
I wonder why there aren't already cobs (coloured or not) in the US? I get the impression that there are the TBs, QHs and other light breeds on the one hand, and the heavy dray breeds on the other. Why aren't there many cobs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The QH takes it's place as a steady horse that anyone can goof around on. Compared to the UK they don't have ponies here for children - lots of the kids start off on a 15.2hh QH. And they're quiet as a dead rock. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xanthoria

Jan. 27, 2004, 04:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fernie fox:
I am ashamed to see the US folks getting gypped..again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Baahahahaha - pun intended? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

RHdobes

Jan. 27, 2004, 08:32 PM

My old-fashioned Morgan mare looked "cobby"--in fact, cob-sized tack fit her best.

Sorry about the "GT"---got the 'Tinker' and 'Vanner' accidently combined.

I just hate the "here's the new...." whatever in breeding. In Arabian horses, they are constantly trying to breed the half-Arabian that will trot the highest. Half Saddlebred, Friesian, Dutch Carriage Horse, Hackney Horse--they simply aren't satisfied with the normal action of the Arabian, or should I say "limits" within the breed.

Lest anyone think I'm picking on the Arabian people, I don't like the fact that those who own/breed the registered/approved/branded Warmbloods ignore the fact that many of those horses 1/2 Thoroughbreds and owe a great deal of their QUALITY and ABILITY to the TB breed. And don't tell me that the Quarter Horse is the fastest horse over 1/4 mile, when many of the QH racers are mostly Thoroughbred. And I don't like the look of the Saddlebred-show Morgan---it makes me WONDER, especially with the recent scandal in that breed. And the same with the Paint Horse---many of those are just plain Quarter Horses or Thoroughbreds. And Appaloosas---what WAS the national organization thinking?

Just to let you know I'm an equal opportunity kavetcher. ;-)

nightsong

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:46 AM

I used to have a half-Arab with the registered name Gypsy's Tinker. Is that like a Thoroughbred with the registered name American Quarter?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love is all there is

deltawave

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:11 AM

But these "Gypsy Vanner" horses have NO studbook, NO particular pedigree, NO performance history, NO breed standards (except spots and feathers) and yet they are commanding (or at least their sellers are asking) crazy prices for them. WHY? Because they're "trendy". People like striking horses with big hair--that's fine, but if one is looking for more than an ornament, IMO one should look for proven performance, temperament, breeding to type, conformation, etc. etc.

You asked "how do you know the GV...doesn't pass on talent", etc... The way to "know" this is by generations of breeding and proven performance. As of now I don't see any evidence that these horses aren't just....spotted draft horses. Why not call them Spotted Draft Horses? It's like the angry, disaffected Irish Draught people forming their own registry and calling them "Celtic Warmbloods": RIDICULOUS, IMO, but probably will catch a few unsuspecting souls who think "ooh, warmblood, ooh, "Celtic"--I must have one!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

The Irish Draught has nothing to prove WRT temperament, type, performance, or athleticism. They may or may not be "trendy" but at least they have something to back up the hype! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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fernie fox

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:17 AM

WEll at least it did'nt take long for the Irish to start their own "programme".

At least they are honest about "no known pedigree" (http://www.irishcobsociety.com/Registration/Register.htm)

Good for them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

Uberraschung

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:21 AM

I had never really heard of this "breed" so I did some searching. Holy crap, if someone can charge $12,000 for a just started "rare" chestnut GV (http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1069196545&0), then my plain bay jumper must be worth at least $60,000http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif And an unborn foal for $20k firm (http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1069242685&0)? wtf?

I was amazed that Gypsy Vanner was a valid breed on this search engine too, but there are some few legitimate breeds missing. these horses are pretty, but jeez....there is a sucker born every minute!

deltawave

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:23 AM

The "Celtic Warmblood Society" is based in Canada and the US...Ireland has nothing to do with them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's a long, ugly tale of personal vendettas and sniping on both sides (IMO, of course!) but basically an Irish Draught that was banned from inspection for RID status is now a "foundation sire" for the new "breed". It's a crying shame--the last thing a rare breed needs is infighting and politics, but I'm told this is hardly the exception to the rule. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

---------------------------------------------
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titan

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:53 AM

Irish Cob, Gyspy Vanner, Irish Tinker whatever. The point is just because a horse is registered with a breed association doesn't mean it has any of the qualities that the particular breed is associated with.
So you are able to research the pedigree, that's great. Of course the Irish are notorious for only recording the sires so who knows where the mares came from (GV, IT, IC maybe). Maybe Mountain Pearl's great grammy is a tinker mare http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. Just because you can't research the pedigree of an animal without an established breed organization doesn't mean that the type of horse doesn't have the qualities you mentioned. Even breeds with standards have "types" that fall in and out of fashion.
If all you're trying to say is buyer beware, why narrow it down to spotted horses with feathers.

http://www.positivestepfarm.com

mwalshe

Jan. 28, 2004, 11:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I'm sorry folks, but I think they are very attractive and worthy of their own breed designation. So what if some of them are "mutts" - many breeds (like the Morgan!) started out that way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You cannot draw comparisons between the RID breed and these horses! The RIDs were a very common breed at one point and show great prepotency (ie they breed true). And they may not all have papers that go back 10 generations but that does not mean that the breeders were breeding any old mare to any old stud or that they, themselves did not know the breeding of the mares. Breeders have bred for a range of types for centuries (purebred for light draft and general riding and crossbreds for sale as hunters).

The best analogy I can get for the pinto cobs commonly available in Ireland and the UK being sold abroad for big bucks is if I around buying cross breed puppies and then marketed them as belonging to the proud old breed of "Nondescript Black Dog". There are lots of vaguely labX looking dogs in any pound you go to, black with white markings, it doesn't mean that they are all members of one breed!

[This message was edited by Hobbes on Jan. 28, 2004 at 02:23 PM.]

deltawave

Jan. 28, 2004, 11:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> just because a horse is registered with a breed association doesn't mean it has any of the qualities that the particular breed is associated with<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm, hello...this is why most "sport horse" breeds have INSPECTIONS and REGISTRATIONS and CRITERIA. A horse that is registered with an established breed that has breed standards, judges, and criteria for inspection either measures up and is accepted, or it doesn't measure up and is not. If a horse fails its own breed inspections, it is not up to snuff according to the inspectors. Sadly, rather than accept it, some folks who are bitter about it go out and form their own “breed” or “registry”. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Maybe Mountain Pearl's great grammy is a tinker mare<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be! If so, her offspring have been proven through generations of breeding to be of a type that is known to produce top-notch sport horses. You can’t just produce a single horse as an example and say “here is a producer of sport horses”…the proof is in the OFFSPRING. BTW, if you’re itching for a fight, go ahead and say that to the hard-core ID people…wowee, you will have a crazed bunch of people on your case! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I'm not a radical Irish Draught person...but I *am* certain that the breed can back up its claims because the offspring are out there proving it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Just because you can't research the pedigree of an animal without an established breed organization doesn't mean that the type of horse doesn't have the qualities you mentioned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That argument may be true--no individual horse is SOLELY a product of its bloodlines. The converse, however (a horse with established bloodlines is unlikely to have "typical" or breed-type qualities) is certainly NOT true.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If all you're trying to say is buyer beware, why narrow it down to spotted horses with feathers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I'm not exactly saying "buyer beware" but rather "buyer use your head"...there's a subtle difference. If ALL one wants is a pretty horse of a certain size, shape or color, then performance records, proven genetic prepotency (the ability to "breed true") and breed standards are unimportant. If, however, one is looking for "cache'", or the Flavor Of The Month (love it!) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif or just an individual horse that appeals to them, then who needs a particular breed with all those pesky ideals and standards? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hey, if one finds the Ideal Horse that meets one’s particular criteria, that’s great…buy him! Who cares about papers if THAT HORSE is what you’re looking for. Wouldn’t you say, though, that a couple of stallions, a handful of mares and a (very cheesy, IMO) mass-marketing scheme that has come to light only over a few years is a shaky foundation for a “breed” or even “type” of horse? Your own string—the Loughnatousa horses—are justifiably well known locally and becoming a catch phrase for good Irish horses, but you’re not planning on calling them a BREED, are you?

I’m not saying the horses aren’t appealing, just questioning the sudden appearance as a “breed” of a horse that’s been considered fairly nondescript for centuries. Even if they could be legitimately established as an identifiable bloodline, or even several, why on earth the sudden, artificial interest in them? It is, simply, because the market will bear the influx of expensive, otherwise nondescript horses. I’ll wager most people buy them because of the “schtick”—a romantic, lovely story—and because of their looks. Does that define a breed???

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
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hitchinmygetalong

Jan. 28, 2004, 11:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hobbes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Quote from Hitchinmygetalong:
I'm sorry folks, but I think they are very attractive and worthy of their own breed designation. So what if some of them are "mutts" - many breeds (like the Morgan!) started out that way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You cannot draw comparisons between the RID breed and these horses! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm too lazy to reread this whole thing and I almost blew up my computer AND the bulletin board when I tried a search, so please indulge my stupid question:

What is "the RID breed"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Weatherford

Jan. 28, 2004, 12:02 PM

RID = Registered Irish Draught

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

titan

Jan. 28, 2004, 12:18 PM

Deltawave you are taking this waaaayyy to personal. I used the RIDSH as an example because I know who you are and you know who I am and that I own a half dozen Irish sport horses including a black & white spotted mare that wins all over Michigan. You popped onto this post in the beginning and made a very general statement about horses that fall into the Irish/Gypsy cob category which was rather coarse. I felt that maybe there was another way of looking at the situation that would not be so harsh.
As you posted these animals have been 'considered fairly nondescript for centuries', do you mean a type of animal that has had the same characteristics for centuries? Maybe along with spotted, they are also athletic or maybe they have wonderful dispositions? Maybe they don't have an older registery because of a bias to their color that prevented them from making it to the mainstream earlier.
I have no idea myself but I don't think anyone can say there is no validity to peoples claim that these horses may be a breed of their own. Every picture I have seen looks an aweful lot like the mare I have. The one who has a bunch of tricolor ribbons from the jumpers, dressage, and even hunter shows last year. And no, the Loughnatousa horses are obviously not a breed.

http://www.positivestepfarm.com

Coreene

Jan. 28, 2004, 01:01 PM

Bejayzus, Oi jest lov an Oirish Harse fight!

deltawave

Jan. 28, 2004, 01:14 PM

Nope, not taking it personal...you haven't, after all, said anything about MY parents! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Truly, that is my sense of humor talking...if you only knew how crazy some of the ID people get over this stuff, though! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I really think all these "new" breeds popping up are the result of canny marketing tactics and eager buyers who want a horse with some sort of "label".

I don't know your mare, but the "Gypsy Vanner" horses I've seen (in photos only) are NOT the type of horse I'd picture jumping ANYTHING. They look like Percherons, Shires, etc. with spots. DRAFT horses.

http://www.gypsyvannerhorse.com/king.html
http://www.gypsyhorses.com/Horses/tyson.htm

I'd love to see a picture of yours, however!

If my original statement was "coarse" I don't see how it differs from the opinion of 90% of the other posters here and on the Friesian threads, etc. I haven't a thing against the horses themselves, but I'm a little suspicious of the marketing scheme. *shrug*

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
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titan

Jan. 28, 2004, 01:23 PM

Marketing is as marketing does, but it's no fault of the horses and happens with EVERY breed/type and discipline. As for pictures, they can be deceiving. I don't know anything about the horses you posted but mine looks just like them with a better clip & pull job. I would have passed her by shopping until I saw her ridden poorly down to a 4'6" vertical and then rolled back the other way. What is it they say - don't judge a book by its cover http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.positivestepfarm.com

JuniorJumper01

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by deltawave:
I don't know your mare, but the "Gypsy Vanner" horses I've seen (in photos only) are NOT the type of horse I'd picture jumping ANYTHING.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Gypsy Vanners aren't being marketed as hunters/jumpers/sporthorses... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)
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Roisin

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Maybe Mountain Pearl's great grammy is a tinker mare <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, deltawave...maybe that means our fillies are worth a fortune now that they are GV crosses!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

creseida

Jan. 29, 2004, 07:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fernie fox:
I just had a "Brilliant" thought,we should rename all the PMU babies here.Solid Gypsy Vanners.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or "Breeding Stock" Gypsy Vanners...like breeding stock Paints! LOL

~<>~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~<>~
~Member of the *Horse Vans* clique~

"Learn the rules so you may break them effectively"~Dalai Lama

CoolMeadows

Jan. 29, 2004, 08:00 PM

Ooooh, oooh then I have TWO Breeding Stock GVs!! One unusual solid bay furball, not a speck of white! And Wyeth is an even rarer specimen with a spotted butt! Only $10,000 a piece for these extra magical youngsters. Any takers?
Bueller, Bueller??

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

Coreene

Jan. 29, 2004, 09:50 PM

Bejayzus!

deltawave

Jan. 30, 2004, 05:24 AM

BRILLIANT! What did one website call the flaxen chestnut with high white...some mystical name I've never heard of...there's a herd of Belgians around here who look JUST LIKE THAT--of previously unknown GV heritage, apparently! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Cha-CHING!

Since Gwen doesn't have papers (her foaling was never recorded "officially" by the farm where she was born) I've often thought of putting some "spin" on that...maybe she's a product of alien invasion? A Lunar Warmblood? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

---------------------------------------------
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Sonesta

Jan. 30, 2004, 12:40 PM

Ah, rats! You guys sure know how to take the wind out of a poor trainer's sails. Here I was, all excited about being asked to take on in training and show a Gypsy Vanner stallion that should be arriving here in July. I was thinking we'd be mighty sharp looking out there in the dressage ring with all that hair a flying. Should I, instead, be embarrassed???

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses. 
"Find something you love & call it work."

deltawave

Jan. 30, 2004, 01:35 PM

Hey, if he can "walk the walk" (and trot the trot, etc.) then you can hold your head high. (to get around all that hair...) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif A good horse is a good horse--nobody's disputing THAT--we're just having a bit of fun with the "breed du jour" mentality in horse marketing.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

---------------------------------------------
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CoolMeadows

Jan. 30, 2004, 01:49 PM

Aw, Sonesta, I actually think they're quite lovely to look at so don't feel embarassed! In fact, when I'm ancient and feeble and drooling on my front porch, I'd love to squint out into my fields and see those guys. Of course I'd have to hire a whole herd of staff just to keep them fluffy and magnificent looking.

Now, off to feed dinner to my current herd... and BTW, the price on the rare solid bay Breeding Stock Gypsy Prevannerin foal has increased to a firm $20,000 as he is obviously of Olympic sporthorse quality now too. Jumped out of his 4'6" field as I was walking down to feed breakfast this morning and ran up to me yelling all the way. Apparently I was 10 minutes late with the chow. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

PeriwinkleBlue

Jan. 30, 2004, 04:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Bejayzus, Oi jest lov an Oirish Harse fight! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Coreene, pass the popcorn. This is fun! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

*****************************************

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like." - Captain Mal

GatoGordo

Jan. 30, 2004, 05:36 PM

Deltawave, I think Gwen would qualify as a "Youngenburg". They're the 21-st century version of the Oldenburg, and have their very own, exclusive registry with 3 horses in it currently. The premier stallion has been proven to be able to event at Novice without causing panic attacks in jump judges. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

equestrielle

Jan. 30, 2004, 05:40 PM

The gyspies, known for hundreds of years as the quintessential horse traders, apparently still reign supreme.

Of course, if they are getting the short end of the stick on this deal, that is indeed unfair.

Coreene

Jan. 30, 2004, 09:13 PM

There were a few at Equine Affaire. I told DMK that they looked exactly like the ones on the side of the road in Ireland. There was one poster about "seven generations" of great horse breeding. The mule, near that particular Tinker, started to bray like mad at that moment, which was highly appropriate given that it was all I could do to keep from doing the same.

I love all horses, so I'm not having a go at the tinkers / vanners / drum horses, but ... but ... Jayzus Mary an' Joseph and all that.

scotchdun

Jan. 31, 2004, 06:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chaser:
In addition to Show Cobs, there are just ... cobs - generally hairy. These are the ones I was thinking about when I said they are relatively cheap etc. Show cobs are popular, good ones are rare and they do cost more.

Here are a few everyday cobs:

Gallery 1: Puzzle

Gallery 2: Whisky, Harley

Gallery 3: Belle

There may be others. I didn't go through the whole listing.

http://www.saddle-up.org.uk/Gallery/gallery-1.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My horse's name is Puzzle and I've never heard of another named that. I can see why the Puzzle in your Gallery is so named - and mine has a sort of jigsaw-puzzle-piece-shaped star/strip combination. She's a QH and if she's "nothing but a wee cob" she sure looks nothing like one!

Duramax

Jan. 31, 2004, 06:28 PM

Gypsy Vanner Marketing Scheme Part II: Gypsy Vanner Horse Goods and Products

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

A chick at the barn came out yesterday with a bright pink box of horse cookies that were named something like "Luck and Love" peppermint swirl horse yummies. There was a picture of a gypsy vanner trompsing through a flower filled meadow with a slogan under it that said "a new kind of horse treat inspired by a new horse breed."

Yep... I've now officially seen it all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As far as other ways for us to make money with all this craziness, who wants to join me in importing some little pack horses from Africa and starting the new "African warmblood registry"? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

PoloPonyRider

Feb. 16, 2004, 02:16 PM

"but the "Gypsy Vanner" horses I've seen (in photos only) are NOT the type of horse I'd picture jumping ANYTHING. They look like Percherons, Shires, etc. with spots. DRAFT horses. "

Probably because they ARE draft horses. There is a registry for GVs and for Gypsy Cobs in the US. They are essentially the same thing, just a different last name. There IS a breed standard for both breeds, check http://www.gcdha.com for the standard for the Gypsy Cob.

If you want to see one jumping, check out
http://www.drumandfeather.com The stallion Spellcaster had a jumping photo on his page. I have been to his farm, and he is spectacular.

There are two mares at Bit A Both Farm in Florida that are quite expensive, but they are driving mares that have an impressive show record. http://www.bitabothfarm.com I think is their website.

If you have never met one in person, they are simply wonderful. My boyfriend went to Drum and Feather with me. He had never been around stallions before and was quite impressed when the owner asked us to come into the stall with her. He did not think the stallions would allow that. We also visited a woman in IL who has 4 mares and a colt. Her one mare is schooling fences quite well. All had wonderful, in your pocket temperaments. She told us a story of her one mare who had been imported, never ridden, and one day, the farm owner's two little girls were standing on her back as she grazed. Not the smartest thing of course, but it is a good story of their temperament. I am going to Equine Affaire in OH just to visit with some of the other breeders and meet some more of these horses.

A lot of the owners are working more on the breeding aspect instead of showing, but some are out there in the showring. I know some that are starting in dressage training and one even has plans to do reining.

The politics with this breed are a mess. But the horse itself is not.

birdsong

Feb. 16, 2004, 03:57 PM

I just saw my first GV at Tampa this past week. He was smallish compared to the fullsized drafts...with tons of hair..Really kinda cute. I spoke briefly to the owner who commented that they were trying to breed them down in size (height) but with the same stockiness. Now to me that would just look ridiculous.

PoloPonyRider

Feb. 16, 2004, 04:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by birdsong:
I spoke briefly to the owner who commented that they were trying to breed them down in size (height) but with the same stockiness. Now to me that would just look ridiculous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the imported ones are 13 hh to 15.2 hh. They are trying to breed them down here in the States because owners here actually worm their mares and feed them well. Over there (in most cases), the horses are not wormed, not fed properly, and it is common for a yearling to be bred, thus not reaching her expected height. A lot of people have had a "problem" with that here. Now the small ones are selling really well, when the bigger ones were before. When I buy mine (in the future, need some money first!!), I will be looking for something in the 15 to 15.3hh range.

My filly:

http://www.angelfire.com/stars/sweetprincess/aaralyn.html

hitchinmygetalong

Feb. 16, 2004, 05:51 PM

Glad someone resurrected this thread. I met this horse last weekend:

http://www.vannercentral.com/kings_gypsy_princess.htm

I don't know what the owners paid for her, but she is absolutely breathtakingly stunning. A beautiful horse. No way can someone consider her a "marketing ploy." If this is the direction they are taking this breed, someone is heading the right way. Wow.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

PoloPonyRider

Feb. 16, 2004, 06:22 PM

She IS gorgeous. I have seen her pics there before http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here is a stallion in Colorado who will be at Equine Affaire OH (I think)
http://www.gypsyhorses.com/Horses/tyson.htm
He is wonderful too. You have to check out the Equine Affaire pics from last year. They have him ponying one of his colts. How many stallions will allow that?

Someone mentioned Drum horses. This stallion (same farm as above) was a Drum horse that belonged to the Queen of England.
http://www.gypsyhorses.com/Horses/galwar.htm

Jennifer K

My filly:
http://www.angelfire.com/stars/sweetprincess/aaralyn.html

Albion

Feb. 16, 2004, 07:02 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif How do they deal with that MANE on a daily basis! Good lord!

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

hitchinmygetalong

Feb. 17, 2004, 03:32 AM

Albion: It is in a loose french braid to her withers, then a straight braid from there. The braid is about 3-4 inches thick and goes to below her elbow. Her tail is in about four or five braids that are looped up and loosely secured below her dock.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

slc2

Feb. 17, 2004, 07:09 AM

the only thing outstanding about that horse is its long mane and coloration. if you select horses based on their color and their mane, god bless ya. i don't.

Kathy Johnson

Feb. 17, 2004, 07:18 AM

My Irish assistant said the "Knacker's Horses," as they are called there, are wonderful horses for riding schools and the like. They are pretty bombproof. She too would like to export about a gazillion of them. If anyone is serious, she is back in Dublin and I'm sure she'd be happy to help.

Kathy Johnson (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

PoloPonyRider

Feb. 17, 2004, 07:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slc:
the only thing outstanding about that horse is its long mane and coloration. if you select horses based on their color and their mane, god bless ya. i don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which horse are you referring to? I don't select horses on their color or mane, but conformation and temperament. These are DRAFT horses. NOT Thoroughbreds, Warmbloods, etc. Draft horses should have a different type of conformation than sporthorses etc. They are made for pulling loads, not jumping 5 ft.

Jennifer K

My filly:
http://www.angelfire.com/stars/sweetprincess/aaralyn.html

Lord Helpus

Feb. 17, 2004, 03:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chaser:
Why aren't there many cobs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a good question! We have had cob sized bridles for years, and no cobs to wear them.

Hmmmmmm. Another mystery of life.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

MistyBlue

Feb. 17, 2004, 04:08 PM

I've heard recently that the importation of horses is rising in cost...whcih might not make importing many breeds for the sole purpose of sale here so lucratrive anymore. However...as long as most horses have the wrods "imported" in their ads the prices do seem to jump dramatically.
Hubby tried to buy a 2 year old chestnut and white Gypsy filly last November at the Equine affaire. Darned near had to tackle him at the knees when I heard him discussing price. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I think the Gypsy's are some darned cute little fuzzy buggers, but can't fiugure out what the heck I'd do with one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

hitchinmygetalong

Feb. 17, 2004, 06:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slc:
the only thing outstanding about that horse is its long mane and coloration. if you select horses based on their color and their mane, god bless ya. i don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, couple her impressive good looks with her outstanding ground manners and driving abilities, and I think this is a pretty darn nice horse. Sorry, she won't make it in the dressage arena, but that is not what she was purchased for. She is doing exactly what her owners want, and she's doing it very, very well. So please, just because a horse does not fit YOUR ideals, don't write it off. Believe it or not, not everyone wants exactly what you want in a horse.

(hitchinmygetalong running like mad from the brick slc is prepping to throw....)

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Natty Dread

Feb. 18, 2004, 08:06 AM

I am having visions of small girls with their "Robert Vavra" horse picture books. Lovely photos to tack to your walls when you are a day dreaming child.

The reason these horses are so kind is obviously from their draft/pony blood. The reason these horses are so popular is their coloring as well as their long manes and feathers. I believe that is one of the reasons people are so drawn to the Freisians as well.

Breed dujour? You betcha. You can go to the fall Waverly sale in Iowa and pick up a spotted draft for $1000 - $2000. Sounds to me like there is no difference as these Gypsy horses are not pedigreed. A good horse is a good horse...but I definately think it is bordering on the "scam".

I am sure they are super horses to own and drive. I say more power to the folks that can get that kind of money for an unregistered, unpedigreed, unseen embryo. I guess I am definately in the wrong breed.

N103

Feb. 18, 2004, 08:53 AM

Now wait just a minute http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have to pick on some other breeds for just a bit.. I agree that major marketing is involved, but other breeds are not "in the clear" in the marketing scheme. Come on now, in this country, at least on the east coast, all you hear is "TB TB TB", and more recently "imported warmbood",etc. It hasn't been so long since Warmbloods became all the rage..

A lot of TB's, even registered ex-racers, have bad conformation. They can be insane, nervous, accident prone, and sometimes dangerous. But-despite this, everyone is proud to say that they have one. That's marketing right there http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Warmbloods aren't always that great either. Everyone gets these big horses and then realizes "they're too much horse" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif A petitie person riding a 17.2 hh warmblood doesn't always work out. Someone recently told me there was a glut of warmbloods at the Timonium (MD) sales because they're all the rage but too much horse for many.

I have seen so many people who would have been much happier with a "cob"-gypsy, spotted, imported, or otherwise, than one of these annoying high-stung horses. (Ah, I'm going to get flamed by the TB people-please don't take offense!) I personally want a Standardbred or draft cross as my next horse because I'm so sick of TB highjinks.

And as a disclaimer, I don't hate TB's or Warmbloods. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But, I do think they've exploded in this country due to marketing, and the fact that people feel like they NEED one. And let's face it, many imported horse have a high price tag that is probably unjustified. When you label something an "imported german warmblood", you're looking at big bucks..

P.S.-Someone mentioned the horse treats w/ the Vanner on them ("New treats inspired by a new breed...")-and I do think that is ridiculous! I cracked up when I saw them http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

PoloPonyRider

Feb. 18, 2004, 11:48 AM

Natty,

Like I said on the other forum, every breed has to start somewhere. These horses do have backgrounds. Not as long as a Thoroughbred or Warmblood, but so what? I would certainly not pay $20,000 for one, but you can get them cheaper than that. They have been bred for their temperaments. I am sure it has something to do with the pony/draft blood, but it also has to do with the fact that an unruly horse has no place with a Gypsy family.

They are not spotted drafts.

http://www.nasdha.net/stallions_stud_colts.htm

This is the Spotted Draft Horse registry. Not ONE has the type of feather (most don't even have feather!) typical of a Gypsy horse. Nor the manes or tails. And I bet not the temperament either. Most seem to be draft/paint cross.

Now compare those horses to these.

http://www.gypsydrumhorses.com/stallions.htm

The first is a Drum horse. He looks more drafty than Slainte, the Gypsy Cob. But he is still not a Spotted Draft horse.

Jennifer K

My filly:
http://www.angelfire.com/stars/sweetprincess/aaralyn.html

magnoliadrafts

Feb. 18, 2004, 02:37 PM

How disappointing to see that I know some of the people posting on this topic, yet they have never bothered to come see my horses in person, or ask me (someone who owns them) questions to better educate themselves about the breed!

There is no way I could answer all 5,000 posts on this topic, but as someone who actually owns GVs and isn't just making blind speculations, I'd like to share a few thoughts.

As far as the advertising/marketing campaign goes...can you not separate that from the horse itself? The trucks you drive, the sodas you drink, the clothing you wear...do you agree with EVERY marketing tactic that they have all used? Must you agree with the marketing to love the "product'??

I love these horses because they are wonderful. They ARE "magical"...as magical as any living thing can be. The GV is a "magical breed" because of the solid temperment they have, because of the ease in training them, because they are SO versatile, and YES because of that gorgeous flowing hair and pretty color! What is it about magic that offend you all so much?

The high prices on GVs reflect many things...the obvious being importation costs and price of the horse in its country of origin. Also, supply and demand drives prices. The rarity of the breed IN OUR COUNTRY coupled with the HUGE demand for them adds up to a higher priced horse. Plus the important fact that a lot of people (including ME) breeding these horses BELIEVE that they are worth their weight in gold.

Yes, there are crappy examples out there with high price tags...just like in ANY breed. And there are people willing to "sucker" other people into buying them by calling them "quality." Open up your local classifieds and tell me you don't see the same being done with "AKC registered" dogs! Caveot emptor!

As to them being "a dime a dozen" overseas...Do you know that QHs are often shipped from the U.S. to an overseas market who pays top dollar for them? I can buy a QH at the local auction for $100. QHs are VERY common here in Texas...I can drive 5 miles in any direction and pass whole herds of them. Many not cherished or prized by their owners and are NOT breeding quality. And I can drive by a hundred non-descript horses that LOOK like QHs to an undiscerning eye. The same is true of Irish Cobs (what they are called in their homeland) in Ireland and England. That fact doesn't make a GREAT QH or GV worth less in any country. It only means that you should pay meat prices for meat quality...and top dollar for breeding, competition, or show quality! It is your job (as the buyer) to learn to recognize the difference.

I originally set out to breed Shires. I fell in love with the GV breed by accident. I did not fall in love with the NAME, or the MARKETING, I fell in love with the horses themselves. Now I own four, including a proven breeding stallion. We will buy more as we can afford the quality and type we prefer. I hope to help establish the GV as a BREED in the United States. The money is not why I'm in this...I am in it because I believe in the GV and what it has to offer people in the U.S.

You can all keep your Fresians, Andalusians, Warmbloods, etc...and I don't care a whit what you pay for them! DO what you believe in, RIDE what you believe in, BREED what you believe in...but please stop professing knowledge about a breed you have NO firsthand experience with!

P.S. Incidentally, SONESTA, I would hope you will not be "embarrased" to take on my stallion for further dressage training! Should I be looking for another trainer for Guinness??

Laurel Eaton
Magnolia Draft Horse Ranch
www.texasdrafts.com (http://www.texasdrafts.com)

*Not a member of any clique, thank you*

hitchinmygetalong

Feb. 18, 2004, 04:17 PM

magnoliadrafts, WELCOME to the wild and wacky world of COTH BB's! I loved your post, and as they say here in the "South" (since most of Kentucky considers itself more "south" than "midwest") YOU GO GIRL!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Sonesta

Feb. 18, 2004, 05:07 PM

Hell, Laurel, I'm the one who posted about how EXCITED I was to be offered the opportunity to train and show him!!! I thought it was a hoot that people were talking like they were trash.

Count me IN, girl! I have seen his pics. He's a doll! And we'll rub these guys nose in it later!

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses. 
"Find something you love & call it work."

silver

Feb. 18, 2004, 05:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The same is true of Irish Cobs (what they are called in their homeland) in Ireland and England. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And yet it's funny that in years of riding in Ireland (many times on horses that look just like yours) I NEVER heard of this breed until a few years ago?

I personally know of these types of horses being born to everything from a small pony mare to a TB looking mare. Mares that came from the sales or were bought off the side of the road.

Quiet horses, and if you want to create a new studbook, fine. But the fact remains that these horses were never selectively bred in Ireland.

Shire

Feb. 18, 2004, 05:44 PM

Well, I must say this is rather an interesting topic.
First of all, I'm curious as to how many people bashing the breed actually have trained, ridden or otherwise worked around this breed?
I've been in the hunter/jumper world as both a rider and a coach. Been there done that with the Quarter Horses, Appaloosas Thoroughbreds, the "Warmbloods" and have made the choice to work and train Vanners. So I think I'll throw in my two cents into the Gypsy Horse Bashing Ring.
QUALITY VS. QUANTITY:The situation you're talking about regarding this breed is no different then the problems you find within the Appy registry (the 'solid' horses and the need to go back to actually breeding for color!)Or the Quarter Horse and what 'popularity' has done to that breed's movement.(Really, do we WANT horses to trip over their noses as they trot and canter?) We could go on endlessly about the Friesians and the great debates over their registries, etc. The only glaring difference with the gypsy horse is the introduction of the breed into the US in the age of the internet.
Yes, the marketing on the breed has been both genius and horrible for the breed. It's popularity via the internet has given rise to the 'mass importation' of the horses. Let's face it, anyone can be anything they want on the internet. Putting something on the internet doesn't make it true. (And if it does, I'll make myself an Olympic champion.)Currently, poor quality horses are being imported along side quality horses and are being sold for the same price. The public in general hasn't a clue what they're getting.
These are problems that come with any 'new' registry and 'breed'. Luckily, these registries are all doing DNA testing to maintain some sense of quality and genetics. Time and education will sort some of the problems out. Every other registry and breed has had the time to sort out the problems.... and the Gypsy Horse breed has to have that same time. Despite the Internet.
There is a great post comparing this situation to the registry of that of the AKC. There are Labs (for example) in every newspaper classified being sold as 'registered'. Very few of these Labs will EVER go into a show ring and be competitive. Papers mean little. We all know this in regards to the Quarter Horses, Appys, etc. We've all seen people buying a QH with 'papers' for say $500.00. Does it mean that horse is guaranteed to win in the show ring? Rarely.
This comparison is the same with the horses bred by the Gypsies. There are junk horses which are sold as a means to quick cash and then there are Vanners/Gypsy Cobs, etc. There are Gypsy-bred horses competitive in their respective classes. For example, the BIT OF BOTH FARM in Ocala, FL. Their tandem team of Vanners are competitive in North America.... To say that they were longlisted is quite an accomplishment. Do you clump these talented horses with the grade or poor quality horses being imported just because they were previously owned by Gypsies? No.
The original importers sent the Gypsy King to Lynn Palm.( The Gypsy King is the Breyer Model and the same horse on some of those "Luck and Love" treats people are bashing.. which by the way are good treats!) She likes him well enough to show him at several Equine Affaires.... She speaks of the breeds' wonderful attributes on the Animal Plant television show. Are you going to bash Lynn Palm because she trained and is impressed by a horse that was owned by a Gypsy? I doubt it. (Then again, it's apparent that some of you have a problem with the Gypsy culture.)
So I guess what I'm trying to say is just because you see poor quality horses being sold for high prices doesn't mean you should bash the entire breed. (I once showed a crazy Arabian.... does that mean that all Arabians are crazy? Come on, I think most of you are smarter than that.)
Then again, maybe I should take my little Vanner home from the Gayla Driving Center where he's in pleasure driving training..... I should just go find some more Thoroughbreds off the track and re-train them and sell THEM for 15,000 hunters.

Vanner

Feb. 18, 2004, 05:56 PM

It is pretty much impossible to understand this breed on the Internet. It is the first breed in the history of breeds to establish itself in the age of this unique phenomenon. Much of what you read is inaccurate. Anyone interested in better understanding the breed are welcome to e-mail GVH2@aol.com for a 19 page brochure. The breed is as legitimate as any breed on earth but it requires an understanding. Many horses raised by Gypsies are not a breed at all. The true breed is legitimate, amazing and wonderful. Just ask for the 19 page Vanner Handbook.

hitchinmygetalong

Feb. 18, 2004, 07:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shire:
Then again, maybe I should take my little Vanner home from the Gayla Driving Center where he's in pleasure driving training..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I know your horse! I saw him a couple of weekends ago at Gayla, Jose was working him when I stopped by! What a CUTIE PIE! He's going to make a GREAT driving horse!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Feb. 18, 2004, 07:10 PM

Why are the anti-vanner (for lack of a better term) people getting so steamed over this?
Is it because people with five figures to spend on a horse for it's looks and temperment alone are out there and you didn't get your piece of the pie?
I happen to think they look lovely...(a bit of a grooming challange perhaps but that is the price you pay)
Do you anti-vanner people think that the buyers with the money to spend that these horses cost aren't smart enough to get a vet check before they write one?

Looks and temperment are 'very' important to parents.
What would you rather spend 25,000 on? A nice looking safe horse or therapy to recover from riding something that is less than safe that you were pressured into buying because the 'trainer' said it would win because it was what the judges were looking for?

[This message was edited by 5 on Feb. 18, 2004 at 10:18 PM.]

S4zeus

Feb. 18, 2004, 07:37 PM

I love the look of the gypsy vanners. I was lucky to find a draft paint cross that looks alot like a gypsy vanner and because his mom is a registered english shire I could get him appendix registered as a Drum Horse. I thought that was awesome. Not exactly fitting with this post, but I found it interesting.

Common sense is the least common thing in the world.

Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/62832282gErEqu

New Member of the Draftie/Draftie X Clique!

sdfarm

Feb. 19, 2004, 07:19 AM

I've had the pleasure of meeting several of these horses, and all of them were as sweet as puppies and had the action that many of us look for in our horses. I personally would rather pay 5 figures for a horse that I thought had a correct temperment in a beautiful package than on that new truck. To each his own, IMHO.

JuniorJumper01

Feb. 19, 2004, 09:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnoliadrafts:

Now I own four, including a proven breeding stallion. We will buy more as we can afford the quality and type we prefer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just curious, who is your stallion? My aunt (as stated earlier) owns a GV mare. I'd love to hear about your herd http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And Vanner, if you want to send me the brochure, I'd love to take a look at it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
JuniorJumper01@aol.com

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)
Split Creek Farm (http://www.splitcreekfarm)

bigbay

Feb. 19, 2004, 09:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
The true breed is legitimate, amazing and wonderful. Just ask for the 19 page Vanner Handbook.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Sorry, no offense meant towards the nature of your post, Vanner, but that line reminded me of an old poster we used to have here called FIGJAM. Her screen name stood for "F*** I'm good, just ask me!"

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

N103

Feb. 19, 2004, 09:27 AM

Quote from 5 (sorry don't know how to do the quote thing):

Looks and temperment are 'very' important to parents.
What would you rather spend 25,000 on? A nice looking safe horse or therapy to recover from riding something that is less than safe that you were pressured into buying because the 'trainer' said it would win because it was what the judges were looking for?
________________________________________________
I agree 5. There is way too much emphasis on TB's and other hot horses because they are popular and trendy, not because they're always great or safe horses.

When I was little I used to look at books on "breeds of the world". However when I started going to horse shows and events, I realized that I would never actually see 80% of those breeds. At hunter shows, for example, you can identify all the breeds there if you know Thoroughbreds, the ever present Welsh Mountain pony, Warmbloods, and sometimes Appys, Appendixes and Quarter Horses. Give me some diversity! Please! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I got so excited last year when I saw a Haflinger in an English Pleasure class. There are tons of riding ponies and cobs out there that are more sane and often easier to get along with then the horses currently in these shows-not all "hot horses" are crazy of course, but they are "hot horses" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

poltroon

Feb. 19, 2004, 03:09 PM

magnoliadrafts wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Must you agree with the marketing to love the "product'??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well actually, there are many mainstream products and businesses that I won't support because I detest their marketing and business practices.

Quite honestly, given the practices that have surrounded this breed, and after the rude and unnecessary harrassment of a friend of mine (earlier noted on this thread), I can't imagine ever buying or recommending a horse marketed or registered as a Gypsy Vanner (TM). Sorry Magnolia - I assume it wasn't you, but the bad taste is still in my mouth and it will be there for a long time.

Do I like cobs? Yes I do. I have no doubt that there are nice individuals of this type and even registered with the registry. But there are nice individuals everywhere, well-bred and not.

silver

Feb. 20, 2004, 05:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> First of all, I'm curious as to how many people bashing the breed actually have trained, ridden or otherwise worked around this breed?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you read my post you will see that I am well acquainted with tinker horses in Ireland. I'm sure quite a few others on this board are too. I've ridden plenty in my life.

I have issues with the marketing surrounding these horses, and the claims that they are an ancient breed and that they are highly valued in their native land. Simply put, the backstory as presented raises serious questions.

GYPSIES are not a big presence in Ireland and are NOT commonly to be seen traveling the roads in brghtly colored caravans pulled by black and white horses. Those people are tourists. This (http://www.spunk.org/library/pubs/rbr/rbr2/sp001125.txt) is the reality of life for many travellers/tinkers/ gypsies.

[This message was edited by silver on Feb. 20, 2004 at 08:35 AM.]

Irish Momma

Feb. 20, 2004, 05:53 AM

Posting trot - the movie is The Commitments- great film.

As easy going, sound, tough and colour flashy as these newly supposedly marketable "Gyppo ponies"are ( definately not PC buts that what we called them growing up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) what are these newly rich purveyors of fine draft ponies!! suggesting is their intended use - beyond pulling a van or trail riding?
Not putting them down, as a lot of great Irish horses have some of this mixed blood, but its not these little cobs, that one sees out there competing in many disciplines.

Feb. 20, 2004, 06:29 AM

Silver- (I can't do the quote thing either) Irish travelers(gypsies)? As in the root group of the 'traveler' woman who was caught on video beating up her daughter in the Kohls parking lot? The same group who makes their living off of shoplifting and scamming people out of their hard earned money then moving on before they can be brought to justice?
I'm sorry, I have a hard time feeling sorry for medical problems and shortened lifespan of a group such as that.

I doubt that they are the people with the flashy cobs anyhow.

Feb. 20, 2004, 06:58 AM

Wow, floodgates opened ... glad to see everyone has an opinion. Not the SAME one, mind you, but all opinions are good. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here's mine ... someone found a good marketing ploy to sell horses. Good for them. I'm sure the individual horses are worthy (of something), but I'm with slc in that I would look at flowing hair and colour of hide LAST. But then I'm more interested in how my horse performs rather than how he looks.

Cobs as a 'class' in the UK fill the same niche that QH do in the US ... they are steady, pretty unflappable, and sturdy. All worthy. None of it worth tens of thousands. Not my tens of thousands, anyway.

The problem (again, IMO) as I see it is that this romance/magic/flowing hair hype will pull in novices who don't know any better. Like every ignorant family that went out and got a Dalmation as a family pet after that stupid movie. Based on no other criteria than colour of hide.

Hide colour is really only a selling point if you are making fur coats out of the 'vanners'.

Not the first horse trend, and I'm sure not the last. One of the more entertaining ones, though. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sonesta

Feb. 20, 2004, 08:41 AM

juniorjumper, go to her web site at http://www.texasdrafts.com to see her new GV stallion, Clononeen Guinness. I have also seen photos of him under saddle and he looks so cute. I really am looking forward to riding him. Look for us at the dressage shows in the Houston area this fall.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses. 
"Find something you love & call it work."

silver

Feb. 20, 2004, 08:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 5:
Silver- (I can't do the quote thing either) Irish travelers(gypsies)? As in the root group of the 'traveler' woman who was caught on video beating up her daughter in the Kohls parking lot? The same group who makes their living off of shoplifting and scamming people out of their hard earned money then moving on before they can be brought to justice?
I'm sorry, I have a hard time feeling sorry for medical problems and shortened lifespan of a group such as that.

I doubt that they are the people with the flashy cobs anyhow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, same group. And if you saw the conditions these women raise children in you most certainly would feel sympahy for them. Abuse is quite common and there are few resources as contact outside the group is strongly discouraged. Remember this is a group who are discriminated against most places in Europe and have a hard time obtaining the basics of life like education, healthcare or housing. Not all travellers are criminals.

And again yes, these are the people with the "flashy" horses. They use them to pull carts or just have them b/c they always have had them. They keep them tied along the sides of the road typically, pretty much allow them to breed randomly and will sell them for a few hundred pounds (about $350).

Lots and lots of riding schools and trekking centers have tinker horses but they don't breed them. They are often very quiet and tolerant (having possibly been ridden from the age of 18 months or so) and are, of course, traffic proof.

N103

Feb. 20, 2004, 09:01 AM

Wow, just looking at some pictures, and not to anyone in particular, but I can't believe people jump these horses. It can't be good for them. Think of the impact on their joints when they land... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif It's sad to think of the arthritis these horses might get. Other jumpers and sport horses might get it to, but I would say the heavier the horse the greater the risk. Correct me if I'm wrong though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think they're beautiful, great tempered horses, but how about flatwork or driving instead of jumping http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Vanner

Feb. 20, 2004, 09:04 AM

Marketing with a vision to establsh a legitimate breed in parallel to what it represents to the people that created it? yes.

A marketing ploy to sell from the umbrella of horses that Gypsies raise? absolutely not, just the opposit.

The effort to establish the Vanner Horse, is simply an effort to establish a breed born to look a specific way, developed from a Gypsy vision to create his perfect caravan horse or Vanner. That vision was born 1/2 a century ago and not all Gypsy horses are part of it.

It is the understanding of the breeds look, the vision and genetics that created the breed, the legitimate and established values that the breed enjoys with Gypsies, the people that live under the umbrella word Gypsy, and the sincere effort to establish the breed as it was intended and with it's magic intact, that will put to rest every criticism, fear, doubt,question or confusion that might exist in the posts of this format. This is Dennis Thompson, original importer of The Gypsy VAnner Horse and major recipient of arrows and hearts http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif SOmetimes arrows that penetrate the heart. I cannot address all of posts at once but I will take one at a time.

CONCERNING THE BREEDS VALUE.
A Common genetically non defined Gypsy horse will demand anywhere from 100 BPS for colts and 400 t0 700 BPS for fillies.This is $170.00 US to $1,190.00 US These horses are raised like livestock and are a commodity based animal that holds no status or pride with Gypsies. This is not their breed but they are a Gypsy type horse. This is the horse that most people who drive the roads of Great Britain see.

The breed is a genetically definable physically identifiable horse born from the vision that created it. These horses will demand for gelding quality colts, approximately 1000 to 3000 lbs. For stallion quality colts 3000 to 7000 lbs. The first selectively bred staliion to be identified as the Vanner breed raised by Gypsies sold for 7000 BPS (British Pound Sterling) in 1992 directly from one Gypsy to another. That is $11,900 US dollars before import and before the animal matured and became a proven stallion. WHy did they pay that? Because they knew this stallion fit the vision they had and had definable genetics that could perpetuate that vision.(the Breed)

Fillies from this category are on average 3000 BPS up. More often 5000 BPS to 20,000 BPS. Based on the more common amount, this makes the average filly imported anywhere from $15,000 US to as much as $40,000 US directly from a Gypsy. 5,000 to 10,000 BPS are prices that are common, 20,000 is more rare but happens.

SOme horsetraders on the Internet are buying from the first category and selling as though the horse is from the second category. This was predictable, hense the breeds name being protected for it's society, so that the promise of the Vanner breed could be delivered for Gypsies and anyone that falls in love with it, it really is that simple.

Please Visit www.GypsyVIP.com (http://www.GypsyVIP.com) The site is an attempt to answer many of subjects that appear here but not all of them. I will be happy to explain why any and everything has happened in the effort to establish this breed which has not been an easy thing to do in the age of the Internet.
Best Regards,
Dennis

silver

Feb. 20, 2004, 09:47 AM

Dennis who exactly are the gypsies in England that are breeding these horses. Names and locations?

Is the registry complete with pedigrees available online?

JuniorJumper01

Feb. 20, 2004, 09:55 AM

Vanner, are you Dennis Thompson?

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)
Split Creek Farm (http://www.splitcreekfarm)

Vanner

Feb. 20, 2004, 09:59 AM

Black Market Radio

Feb. 20, 2004, 10:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bigbay:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
The true breed is legitimate, amazing and wonderful. Just ask for the 19 page Vanner Handbook.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Sorry, no offense meant towards the nature of your post, Vanner, but that line reminded me of an old poster we used to have here called FIGJAM. Her screen name stood for "F*** I'm good, just ask me!"

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFLOL!!! Whatever happend to figjam, anyway?

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
The Walrus was Paul...

Vanner

Feb. 20, 2004, 10:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by silver:
Dennis who exactly are the gypsies in England that are breeding these horses. Names and locations?

Is the registry complete with pedigrees available online?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I am jsut figuring out how to use this forum.
The registry is of course complete with pedigrees, but not currently on line. SOme pedigrees are as simple as mother and father and some are six to seven generations on both sides.A horse does not have to have heritage at all to be accepted, it has to have a look and a temperment that fits the breeds profile. We also have a division for what are called Gypsy horses. These are horses that are typically lacking any heritage and also lacking some physical characteristic inherrent in the breed but they are still a Gypsy type filly or mare. We do not accept colts or stallions from this category. Thes Gypsy mares can be bred to certified Vanner stallions in a breeding up program. Their filly babies can then become certified Vanners when mature. All colts from these breedings are to be gelded. This allows good people that have purchased a mare or filly without really understanding the breed an opportunity to breed up and be involved with the breed. There are Gypsies that are called settled and their are Gypsies that are still quite nomadic.Cindy and I were the first Americans to attend a 300 year old Gypsy Horse fair in an effort to understand Gypsies and their horses. We spent ten days there and documented contact inpormation for many, Gypsies that either purchased or sold quality looking horses. We then visited those Gypsies for the next two years before we bought the first horse. We wanted to imtimately understand their horses first. We then devoted the next two years to purchasing 14 genetically known fillies that represented five or six of the best bloodlines in England and two proven stallions. We have never published contact information on these people for a couple of reason. One is that if we did we would very likely never be welcome again. We have always tried to be culturally sensitive and not your average overly agressive Americans. I will tell you that there were several phenominons that made our effort possible and one was technology. It would not have been possible to understand this breed or stay in touch with breeders without a phenomenon called a Cell phone. Dennis

Vanner

Feb. 20, 2004, 10:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
Vanner, are you Dennis Thompson?

Yes

http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01
http://www.splitcreekfarm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

silver

Feb. 20, 2004, 10:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> We have never published contact information on these people for a couple of reason. One is that if we did we would very likely never be welcome again. We have always tried to be culturally sensitive and not your average overly agressive Americans <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't understand why posting contact information would be so offensive to the English breeders?

JuniorJumper01

Feb. 20, 2004, 10:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
Vanner, are you Dennis Thompson?

Yes
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My aunt (Joy Flanagan) bought Crown Darby's Bali from you and Cindy a few years ago http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I was there when Bali was purchased, but I doubt you remember http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif How is everything going up in Ocala for you?

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)
Split Creek Farm (http://www.splitcreekfarm)

Vanner

Feb. 20, 2004, 10:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by silver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> We have never published contact information on these people for a couple of reason. One is that if we did we would very likely never be welcome again. We have always tried to be culturally sensitive and not your average overly agressive Americans <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't understand why posting contact information would be so offensive to the
English breeders?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are talking about Gypsies not English breeders. I have never met a non Gypsy breeder that imtimately understands this breed. When we purchased and imported BAt & Dolly the first two VAnner fillies in North America we were helped by an Englishman that was born and raised in England, grew up around Gypsies all his life, drove the big hitches for Courage Brewery ( the equivalent to Budweiser in America) and was a professional horseman for over thirty years specializing in Shires. He was blown away by what he saw when he saw Bat & Dolly, Cushti Bok and The Gypsy king. He had no clue that Gypsies had horses that were so well bred and definitive looking. There is no system like you would think about that exists in America or any mainstream society. Gypsies dont have farms,and typically do not read or write. They do not advertise in anything, and often have no use for mainstream society and vice versa. Prejudice was a major ingredient in this breed going unnoticed and understood for so long. Prejudice was only one ingredient.

Vanner

Feb. 20, 2004, 10:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
Vanner, are you Dennis Thompson?

Yes
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My aunt (Joy Flanagan) bought Crown Darby's Bali from you and Cindy a few years ago http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I was there when Bali was purchased, but I doubt you remember http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif How is everything going up in Ocala for you?

Hi there, I have a picture of Bali as a yearling that speaks volumes about the breed and it's genetics. ANyone can write me at GVH@@aol.com and I will send it. Bali is a daughter of Cushti Bok and Crown Darby who is a daughter of The Gypsy King and a georgous mare that was killed on a railraod track in England. It is common for Gypsies to use the side of railroad tracks to stake their horses. Sometimes they get loose and disasters happen.

Tell Joy I said Hay or should I say Hey.
http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01
http://www.splitcreekfarm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

silver

Feb. 20, 2004, 11:04 AM

OK, I don't understand how posting the contact info would be offensive to the Gypsy breeders. In England.

I'm going to be in England next month and going to see these might be a neat field trip.

SandyUHC

Feb. 20, 2004, 12:02 PM

Silver, look up to the post above where he answered you. He does not have breeder contacts, he has Gypsy contacts and he is not going to violate their privacy. Maybe you can do an internet search for breeders in England just like you could do a search for breeders here and would likely find Dennis. It sounds like you may be able to visit a breeder but would have a hard time catching up with the Gypsies they bought their stock from.

Galileo1998

Feb. 20, 2004, 12:18 PM

Well I've been to the Appleby Gypsy Horse Fair in England a few times which is supposed to be the biggest. I did see some attractive colourful horses. I didn't see any evidence of a breeding program other than a bunch of loose horses running around together. As for "Gypsy contacts"...well, by their very nature Gypsy's don't have a "contact". They move around all of the time, have no fixed address and I'm assuming no internet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JuniorJumper01

Feb. 20, 2004, 02:25 PM

Dennis,

Thank you so much for the kind words about Bali; I'll definitely let Joy know that I've been talking to you. She adores Bali and took her to a show at the fairgrounds in January. The spectators loved her http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif As soon as we get some recent pictures of Bali, I'll have Joy send them your way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)
Split Creek Farm (http://www.splitcreekfarm)

Vanner

Feb. 20, 2004, 05:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Galileo1998:
Well I've been to the Appleby Gypsy Horse Fair in England a few times which is supposed to be the biggest. I did see some attractive colourful horses. I didn't see any evidence of a breeding program other than a bunch of loose horses running around together. As for "Gypsy contacts"...well, by their very nature Gypsy's don't have a "contact". They move around all of the time, have no fixed address and I'm assuming no internet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The breeding program clearly does not exist at a horse fair but the horses that are the result of a breeding program do exist at Appleby and may or may not exist at another horse fair. You are corret Gypsies do move around all the time and they certainly are not on the Internet, but they do have a cell phone.
You have to look at the quality horses and want to understand them. Dennis

Vanner

Feb. 20, 2004, 05:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
Dennis,

Thank you so much for the kind words about Bali; I'll definitely let Joy know that I've been talking to you. She _adores_ Bali and took her to a show at the fairgrounds in January. The spectators loved her http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif As soon as we get some recent pictures of Bali, I'll have Joy send them your way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The breed is defined by the passion that it has the ability to evoke. By that definition Bali is a wonderful example of the breed. I look forward to seeing her pictures.

http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01
http://www.splitcreekfarm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nightsong

Feb. 20, 2004, 11:20 PM

I'm happy to see some positive information (emphasis on BOTH of those words) show up. I've ADMIRED these horses/ponies on the intrnet and thought I would greatly like to have one or some.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love is all there is

FairWeather

Feb. 21, 2004, 04:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by N103:
Now wait just a minute http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <snip> Come on now, in this country, at least on the east coast, all you hear is "TB TB TB", and more recently "imported warmbood",etc.

A lot of TB's, even registered ex-racers, have bad conformation. They can be insane, nervous, accident prone, and sometimes dangerous. But-despite this, everyone is proud to say that they have one. That's marketing right there http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you KIDDING ME? Do you know how hard we work to 'get the word out' that OTTB's make nice horses? Do you know HOW MANY prejudices they face? Sorry, in my end of the world, its Warmblood warmblood warmblood. Why else would we have to buy nice sound horses for 300$ a piece??

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER MidAtlantic (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

Natty Dread

Feb. 21, 2004, 05:53 AM

The reason there is no "contact" information for these "Gypsy breeders" is that the US buyers don't want them to know how much they are selling these horses for over here. It would screw up their deal.

Those price figures that were thrown around earlier are very interesting, however, I am certain not one single "Gypsy Breeder" was even remotely involved in the giving/receiving of those prices.

These are Colored Draft horses/ponies. They are no more magical then any other horse. They probably make excellent driving horses because, well, the people that have had them all along drove them. Its not exactly rocket science.

Shire

Feb. 21, 2004, 07:09 AM

I would like to address a previous post regarding the larger boned breeds (Gypsy Horses) being more prone to arthritis from jumping.
It's just the opposite. Let's look at the breeding down of bone in the TB's for comparison. Most track horses don't have a long span of success on the track because of the over use and small bone that breeders have created in this breed. Now when you look at OTTB's it's common to find bone chips, fractures, etc. Hunter/jumper people are often sifting through these horses to find those that can withstand the pressures and concussion of jumping. You have to have solid and strong bones to manage the concussion of fence work.
By that same argument, why do you think that the hunter/jumper world has gone to cross breds? Shire/TBs (if you can actually find one for sale...) Perch/TB crosses, etc. are all the rage. One, because they have a suitable temperament, and two they can withstand the work involved.
The same argument can be applied to the Gypsy Horse. (The current rage is to have a 'colored' horse in the show ring, so any argument that says they won't be successful won't ring true. For example, Art Deco babies.)The Gypsy Horse temperament should be the emphasis, but let's look at their builds. They can handle the work over a long period of time. They are well suited for the show ring as hunter jumper mounts for amatuer and youth riders. Not everyone wants a hot horse that you have to work for an hour and a half before hitting show course. I know everyone is going to complain about the hair not being suitable for this venue... but face it. A, people are either going to shave it and present the horse as the typical heavy hunter.... or B, they're going to show the horse naturally. If the breed is safe enough for kids to handle... eventually they're going to be a choice for parents.
Yes, I have a 13.3 hand gelding. Every little girl that sees him wants one for themselves. (Think about how girls love to groom! "Ah, a my pretty pony that has come to life!".)He will be going to hunter jumper shows.... and he'll be successful. He's a good mover, and if he goes a clean round... then he should be in the ribbons.

silver

Feb. 21, 2004, 07:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Silver, look up to the post above where he answered you. He does not have breeder contacts, he has Gypsy contacts and he is not going to violate their privacy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't really see how introducing a breeder to what may be a potential customer would be such a big deal. Especially for such expensive horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As for being culturally sensitive well, I've been there when people bought horses off travellers on more than one occasion and I've been to plenty of horse fairs. I know people who run one of the biggest caravan rental operations and own many of these horses. I think I could manage not to offend anyone.

As stated above, the backstory on these horses raises serious questions to me. If the sellor claims that these particular horses are from a special breeding program he should be willing to supply proof of that. Whay all the big secrecy? If you want to buy a horse off a traveller it's easy to track them down through the grapevine.

Oh and to whoever said they wouldn't stay sound if you jumped them, as far as I've seen you can break them at a year, gallop them around on the roads, jump them every day and most of them will still stay sound. They are pretty tough horses, no doubt about that. No at all what the American H/J market wants though: generally up-headed with tons of action and a drafty straight up and down jump. Most cobs can jump very impressively over a vertical but won't make the spreads. That's why they aren't very common in the showjumping ring in the UK.

~edited for poor spelling!~

[This message was edited by silver on Feb. 21, 2004 at 08:15 PM.]

Natty Dread

Feb. 21, 2004, 07:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shire:
It's just the opposite. Let's look at the breeding down of bone in the TB's for comparison. Most track horses don't have a long span of success on the track because of the over use and small bone that breeders have created in this breed. Now when you look at OTTB's it's common to find bone chips, fractures, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly there are horses that sustain serious injury, but I think you are way off base in this comment.

There are many, many fantastic OTTBs used today as hunters, jumpers, and Dressage horses. There are equally as many used in 3-day Eventing. I cannot tell you the scores of horses with mediocre careers on the track who absolutely excel on the polo field.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
By that same argument, why do you think that the hunter/jumper world has gone to cross breds?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't aware that the hunter/jumper world had gone to cross-breds. This is a new one for me. I am here in Florida and love to go over to watch the horses at WEF. I am seeing Warmbloods an Thoroughbreds. I have yet to see anything that I would call a Shire/Thoroughbred cross.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Shire/TBs (if you can actually find one for sale...) Perch/TB crosses, etc. are all the rage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you would like to find a Shire cross or any other draft cross I highly recommend the Waverly Horse Sale in Waverly, Iowa. There are literally tons there and they sell super cheap. Is there any wonder?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>(The current rage is to have a 'colored' horse in the show ring, so any argument that says they won't be successful won't ring true. For example, Art Deco babies.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is SO FIVE MINUTES AGO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> They are well suited for the show ring as
hunter jumper mounts for amatuer and youth riders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This here is false advertising and a BALD-FACED LIE. These horses are no more suitable as hunters as a mule. They were "bred" to drive wagons. How often do you see a Belgian in the hunter ring?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> (Think about how girls love to groom! "Ah, a my pretty pony that has come to life!".)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is so typical. Thats right folks looks and color ARE the most important factor in purchasing a horse or pony.

Shire

Feb. 21, 2004, 09:14 AM

Gee Natty, I guess you missed the point of when I emphasized TEMPERAMENT in the previous post you forgot to quote. So, your sarcasm of "This is so typical. That's right folks looks and color ARE the most important factor in purchasing a horse or pony" ran off the track. And the popularity of the paint crosses in the show ring is still popular.

But you do make a point. The bigger question to all of this is why should there be a popularity contest in the show ring when it comes to horses. Why can't we just look at the individual horses' ability and not to color/feathering to include or EXCLUDE a talented horse?

You're right on the OTTB's. Many havegone on to have successful careers.But the numbers

s of horses you find post track with these types of injuries are well founded. Just ask anyone who works with CANTER horses or RERUN. Or just simply look at their sites of available horses. I live in Kentucky, and happen to both rescue and retrain OTTB's. They are wonderful horses. Thoroughbreds can be found that are sound, sane and good mounts for the hunter jumper world. They are among the most POPULAR. The sound ones usually after retraining run in the 15,000 range (those who are unproven in the show ring, but have good movement.). So what's the difference in price? I'm not seeing you debate the price comparison in that area? Sadly, there are more TB's that don't have the mind to be a suitable mount for a child or an BAR (Beginner Adult Rider). Personally, I'm not the type of coach who is going to put a child on a hot horse just because it's in style to ride a "TB" or "Warmblood". Fact is, I want my kids to be SAFE!
I'm not sure where you've been showing in the hunter ring. Shire/TBs.... Perchie crosses, Belgian crosses ARE in the Hunter/Jumper show ring. THEY ARE WARMBLOODS. Perhaps you missed them because any feathering is shaved.
It's not a bald face lie or false advertising to say that they're in the show ring... it's not a bald face lie or false advertising to say that the Gypsy Horses won't be suitable. Afterall, what ARE the requirements under USAE to pin in the hunter ring????? As quoted by the USAE, " The hunter division is open to horses, stallions,mares or geldings. Only am. adults may ride ponies in hunter classes, providing the fences do not exceed 3'3 in height. However ponies cannot be cross-entered into the Regular, Green Pony, and children's Hunter Pony sections at the same competition." Under Classifications they are separated into Green and Regular sections a-I. Help me understand.... where in the USAE rules are Gypsy Horses EXCLUDED? I mean, does it say anywhere in Chapter V. Judging does it exclude Vanners, Gypsy Cobs, etc. from competing if they are sound and complete the requirements for being judged? Gee, if that's the case, the USAE better suspend me as a trainer and coach.
Are you sure you're not confusing this with the polo world? I understand that Polo is your specialty and I won't debate that Gypsy horses probably aren't going to be polo ponies.....

Celtic Witch

Feb. 21, 2004, 09:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnoliadrafts:
As far as the advertising/marketing campaign goes...can you not separate that from the horse itself? The trucks you drive, the sodas you drink, the clothing you wear...do you agree with EVERY marketing tactic that they have all used? Must you agree with the marketing to love the "product'??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be why there are rules and regulations for marketing and advertising. If Ford or Coca-Cola crosses them, they get taken down a peg.

The smoke y'all are blowing up your buyer's arses is illegal. There is no real breed standard and certainly not a studbook in existance abroad. Yes, a good Irish Cob of show quality will fetch a good price, but still not one in line to what they are being sold for here and most of the animals I see here are more akin to the every day ponies I had in my riding schools than Lynn Russell's stunning show cobs. Now, I have no problem with your ability to make money. That's a free market economy at its best. My problem is with the BLATANT LIES used to sell these horses.

Lynn Russell would be the foremost importer of Irish Cobs from Ireland to England and she will tell you the hard work she puts in scouring roadsides and farms for a diamond in the rough. These are generally 3 and 4 year olds which have little to no handling, matted manes and tails, ticks and fleas and require immense time to make them presentable and are horrific to break in. This hardly rings of the wonderful tradition, magic and gypsy love y'all wax poetically about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
SOme horsetraders on the Internet are buying from the first category and selling as though the horse is from the second category. This was predictable, hense the breeds name being protected for it's society, so that the promise of the Vanner breed could be delivered for Gypsies and anyone that falls in love with it, it really is that simple. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would love to see proof of your above price quotes. As someone who regularly bought very nice Cobs for riding schools, I can attest to never having paid more than £1500 (less than $3000) for the best types who had decent conformation, good tempers and lovely hair. They were only good for the very beginners and disabled groups, but did their jobs nicely and were worth their weight in gold for that. However, I still wasn't willing to give silly money for an animal I could find on almost any roadside.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The registry is of course complete with pedigrees, but not currently on line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And who runs this English registry?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We are talking about Gypsies not English breeders. I have never met a non Gypsy breeder that imtimately understands this breed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I never met a "Gypsy" who didn't see a good deal coming. If they could iron out their accents, they'd all be in line for Oscars.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Gypsies dont have farms,and typically do not read or write. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So how were they able to maintain a studbook?

Susie

N103

Feb. 21, 2004, 01:45 PM

quote:
______________________________________________
Originally posted by N103:
Now wait just a minute <snip> Come on now, in this country, at least on the east coast, all you hear is "TB TB TB", and more recently "imported warmbood",etc.

A lot of TB's, even registered ex-racers, have bad conformation. They can be insane, nervous, accident prone, and sometimes dangerous. But-despite this, everyone is proud to say that they have one. That's marketing right there
______________________________________________

quote:
______________________________________________
Originally posted by FairWeather:

Are you KIDDING ME? Do you know how hard we work to 'get the word out' that OTTB's make nice horses? Do you know HOW MANY prejudices they face? Sorry, in my end of the world, its Warmblood warmblood warmblood. Why else would we have to buy nice sound horses for 300$ a piece??
_______________________________________________

FairWeather-No, I'm not kidding http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I said "SOME", not all. I said "EVEN" registered ex-racers, which denoted that most are good, but not all are. And I am NOT suggesting that OTTB's are inferior to any other type of hot horse. My only horse is a slaughter rescue (part TB) and I have no prejudices against any breed.

I think it's great that the OTTB has so many options for second careers now. I have helped publicize them too, and I applaud the work that you do. Plus, I doubt my comments on this board will hurt the breed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif TB owners on this board joke about how accident prone and "crazy" their horses are-not in a bad way, but just because it's something we've come to accept http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BUT...TB's are not for everyone, nor are OTTB's. I agree that they are great horses-for people who are suited for "hot horses" (I mean "hot" as in the notoriously "energetic" breeds). My point is that not everyone should have a TB or Warmblood. I think people don't look into less common breeds, and go for the popular breeds. Usually this is fine, but many people are probably pressured into buying horses that are too much for them. At the local shows in my area, I see way too many kids on too much horse. I am invovled in 4-H shows and local AHSA shows, so I see very few warmbloods (that's a whole different level). Maybe it's just my area, but I know too many people pressured into buying the popular hunter breeds-usually TB's and TB crosses. I'd just like to see some diversity!

The only thing I disagree with is "where else would we get good horses for $300". I don't think it's a good thing that the racing industy breeds so many TB's that we can get them for so cheap-however good they are. I'd happily pay much more if it meant that less TB's would be needing new homes. I can't appreciate the fact that so many horses need new homes, and those that don't find them often go to slaughter... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Please don't take offense, I hope I've explained this decently http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Shire-I mentioned how I thought it might be hard on the joints of jumping draft horses. Thank you for explaining your take on it. I see what you mean about the smaller feet in proportion to the body sometimes being the problem.

Vanner

Feb. 23, 2004, 07:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Natty Dread:
The reason there is no "contact" information for these "Gypsy breeders" is that the US buyers don't want them to know how much they are selling these horses for over here. It would screw up their deal.

Those price figures that were thrown around earlier are very interesting, however, I am certain not one single "Gypsy Breeder" was even remotely involved in the giving/receiving of those prices.

These are Colored Draft horses/ponies. They are no more magical then any other horse. They probably make excellent driving horses because, well, the people that have had them all along drove them. Its not exactly rocket science.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think in some cases you are correct about contact information. There are importers that simply do not want you to have their contacts, but in general it is more complicated than that. There are cultural sensitivities and there are tax sensitivities.

As it relates to prices Gypsies absolutely enjoy the prices quoted before. They receive those prices from one Gypsy to another all the time.

What is fooling everyone is the prices of common coloured horses that you can buy like livestock, they are not nearly as expensive to anyone including Gypsies. These are the common coloured draft type horses/pony's that Gypsies raise and as you suggest are not magical at all. The breed that is magical lives in smaller numbers and evolved in a more focused way. A Gypsy wants to sell you a horse and he wants to sell you what you can afford. You will never even see his best mares if #1 he believes you do not want to pay the price of his well bred horses or #2 he does not want to sell the horse. He will not price the horse If he does not want to sell it. In this case you are likely to never even see it.

As it relates to contacting English breeders. I am sure you will find more interest in coloured horses today but you are much less likely to find a breeder that is really in the zone with the best bred horses. They are typically buying and selling coloured horses that are in the lower price ranges. There are lots of coloured horses a Gypsy would refer to as middelin horses. These will be less expensive, just breed them up to a realy good stallions and dont buy any stallions or intact colts from this category.

Vanner

Feb. 23, 2004, 07:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Therese:
Anne, Kels,

I'm 99.9% sure the customizer was LJJ. It was a big issue that was discussed at length on Haynet.

I remember being in Germany at the time and in each copy of the Pferd Market there were literally 100s of the "Tinker" or "Vanner" horses, for just above meat price. The "Stallion" prospects went for maybe $1500 US.

Marketing, it's an amazing thing... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

- Therese

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now! - Zaphod Beeblebrox in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Therese the horses that were imported to Germany Holland and sweden by the droves in 1998 were in general not the breed at all, they were common coloured horses that can be purchased for meat prices. The public was fooled by horsetraders telling them that Gypsy horses are all the same and just go by different names. The Tinker thing is night and day from the Vanner effort.There is a breed and no breed and a trader that does not want the general public to know it or simply does not understand or care themselves. He wants you to believe they all just go by different names. It is a lot more complicated than that. When the stallion potential animal was selling for $1,500 in Germany Gypsies were paying 20,000 BPS for the right stallion. The breed has to be discovered in these countries because they did not understand it when the exodus began. There were some good horses that got mixed in with the poor ones when Ireland did their roundup and sales of coloured horses. The good ones are bred to select stallions and then run loose with the knacker horses, some were caught in the phenomenon and sold for nothing.

titan

Feb. 23, 2004, 08:34 AM

I just saw the news about the 14 imported horses that crashed on their way to quarantine in KY. They were apparently gypsy horses with an estimated value of $250,000. That's over $15,000 each (not meat prices). Very sad that two had to be put down http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.positivestepfarm.com

Marcella

Feb. 23, 2004, 08:55 AM

Yeah--some guy picked the horses up at the airport and had 14 of them in the van. He was drunk (literally) and crashed the van. I was talking to one of the vets on the scene and saw the pictures she took.

The side of the van peeled off when it skidded and the two that died had broken backs. The others seem OK now.

The vet did say that after all of the ordeal these things had been through, she is sold on a bombproof one because they all walked back on to another trailer to go to the horse hospital and have been behaving perfectly. She couldn't believe they weren't the slightest bit unruly.

TS Clique*Chestnut Horse Clique*GPA Clique*Amateur Rider Clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mmreca

Xanthoria

Feb. 23, 2004, 09:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
Therese the horses that were imported to Germany Holland and sweden by the droves in 1998 were in general not the breed at all, they were common coloured horses that can be purchased for meat prices. The public was fooled by horsetraders telling them that Gypsy horses are all the same and just go by different names. The Tinker thing is night and day from the Vanner effort.There is a breed and no breed and a trader that does not want the general public to know it or simply does not understand or care themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is news to me - and I grew up in the UK and lived in Ireland for 4 years, riding the whole time - a total of 25 years.

Not once did I ever hear of a breed or a registry or anything more than cobby little horses bred to pull carts and take American tourists on trail rides up the mountains.

I agree with Celtic Witch. Since moving to the USA I understand that (broad generalization) Americans love all things Irish but to take advantage of that is a bit much, and the blarney about their magical blah blah that's laid on with a butter knife is a bit thick for me.

In fact it's insulting when you bear in mind Gypsies and Romanies have been persecuted since time immemorial and here we go again - someone taking cash advantage of their heritage and I am sure the Gypsies don't see much of the cash themselves...

The moral fiber of the idea is just a bit thin...

Uberraschung

Feb. 23, 2004, 09:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shire:
I'm not sure where you've been showing in the hunter ring. Shire/TBs.... Perchie crosses, Belgian crosses ARE in the Hunter/Jumper show ring. THEY ARE WARMBLOODS. Perhaps you missed them because any feathering is shaved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On another note, I'm just interjecting to say that draft/tb crosses are in NO WAY warmbloods, the same way that a ASB/tb cross is not a warmblood http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I've rarely seen draft crosses in the H/J ring. They are there and they do their jobs, but more often than not, they are not competitive. It is not a job they are normally built to do. They make kind, personable, gentle mounts, but the suitability is not there.

The Vanners are pretty. They aren't a very legitimate breed in my eyes(the lack of a pedigree knowing more than just the sire and dam for example), but hell if people want to pay for them then all the more power to them.

Magnolia

Feb. 23, 2004, 10:25 AM

A horse is worth what someone will pay. How is this different from paying $250,000 for a horse that jumps 3'6 or $40,000 for a 3' horse that was purchase originally for $2500? Don't buy one if you think they are overpriced!

I think they are attractive and would make nice trail horses or even hunters for a non-jumping hunt!(less all that hair!)

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

deltawave

Feb. 23, 2004, 11:52 AM

I just have a hard time swallowing the term "magical" as a breed characteristic...unless you're selling My Pretty Ponies to 6 year olds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I want to know how much of this money the "gypsies" are getting...

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
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equestrielle

Feb. 23, 2004, 12:34 PM

Seems to me part of the problem is the American conception of "gypsies" vesus the European one. We do have "gypsies" here in the states, but not very many of them.

My impression is that gypsies or Roma people are one of the most oppressed groups in Europe. Perhaps that has changed, but certainly in times past they have been vilified in many countries. They also have a very closed society and different cultural values than the mainstream cultures they live in.

It is certainly possible that vanner and others with the GV horses have struck up a relationship with a group of gypsies in the UK and are buying the best bred horses from these folks directly. However, it is also true that gypsies are known for their horse trading abilties. I guess I after reading all this I am somewhat skeptical of this elite breed of cart horses since our European friends don't seem to have heard of them. It seems to me that it would be hard for a nomadic and less economically well-off cultural group to concentrate on breedng horses and keep the knowledge from the general public, although the Bedouin Arabs certainly did it. So I will keep an open mind but also would like more evidence of these special vanner types versus just commonly bred European horses.

JuniorJumper01

Feb. 23, 2004, 04:04 PM

The ranting and raving on this thread is out of control. I don't understand why there are 9 pages of (mostly) breed and breeder bashing. If you have been personally offended by a Gypsy Vanner, then I can understand all the hate.

If you don't like the breed and the price tag that comes along with it, then don't buy one. Don't waste your time being bothered by the "marketing" either, because you won't get anywhere with it. Some of you (I won't name names-there have already been plenty of classless acts on this thread already) have let this bother you far too much. These horses are not being marketed as H/J types, therfore, do not seem particularly appealing to the H/J crowd. Plenty of H/J people on COTH have some pretty expensive horses and others within that same H/J loop may laugh at them for importing horses with such a hefty price tag. But do they care? Of course not, and why should they? If the person shelling out the money for the horse is happy, I don't see a problem.

I hate to sound cliche (really, I do...) but with all the horrible things that have been going on lately, you would think bashing a certain breed of horse would be pretty unimportant.

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)
Split Creek Farm (http://www.splitcreekfarm)

Vanner

Feb. 23, 2004, 05:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xanthoria:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
Therese the horses that were imported to Germany Holland and sweden by the droves in 1998 were in general not the breed at all, they were common coloured horses that can be purchased for meat prices. The public was fooled by horsetraders telling them that Gypsy horses are all the same and just go by different names. The Tinker thing is night and day from the Vanner effort.There is a breed and no breed and a trader that does not want the general public to know it or simply does not understand or care themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is news to me - and I grew up in the UK and lived in Ireland for 4 years, riding the whole time - a total of 25 years.

Not once did I ever hear of a breed or a registry or anything more than cobby little horses bred to pull carts and take American tourists on trail rides up the mountains.

I agree with Celtic Witch. Since moving to the USA I understand that (broad generalization) Americans love all things Irish but to take advantage of that is a bit much, and the blarney about their magical blah blah that's laid on with a butter knife is a bit thick for me.

In fact it's insulting when you bear in mind Gypsies and Romanies have been persecuted since time immemorial and here we go again - someone taking cash advantage of their heritage and I am sure the Gypsies don't see much of the cash themselves...

The moral fiber of the idea is just a bit thin...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It IS NOT SURPRISING AT ALL THAT YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND. tHAT IS NOT MEANT TO BE HATEFUL OR ARROGANT IN ANY WAY. THERE IS A BREED THAT WAS MISSED in the process of yours and others understanding.

Celtic Witch

Feb. 23, 2004, 05:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
It IS NOT SURPRISING AT ALL THAT YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND. tHAT IS NOT MEANT TO BE HATEFUL OR ARROGANT IN ANY WAY. THERE IS A BREED THAT WAS MISSED in the process of yours and others understanding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bull shite.

You are going to tell us that you know more in a single trip to visit "Gypsies" than those of us who lived there, fully immersed in the equestrian culture?

Those in the UK and Ireland who are aware of the US scheme think its bloody brilliant and wished I would get in on it. Sheer genious to use a bit of smoke and mirrors to turn a fifty quid cart horse into a cash machine for the cost of a bit of feed and soapy water.

Susie

titan

Feb. 23, 2004, 05:45 PM

Vanner-check your private topics, I had a question for you.

http://www.positivestepfarm.com

SothernGypsy

Feb. 24, 2004, 01:06 AM

Equestrielle wrote [QUOTE]

My impression is that gypsies or Roma people are one of the most oppressed groups in Europe. Perhaps that has changed, but certainly in times past they have been vilified in many countries. They also have a very closed society and different cultural values than the mainstream cultures they live in.
QUOTE]

That the gypsy are vilified thoughout Europe is FACT. I live in Germany where the gyspies are hated... They were among those who suffered terribly in the concentration camps. They have since been in litagation with the German Government for reparations...

To say that they are persona non grata is a vast understatment. The English have been trying to get rid of them for centuries as well, and the prejudice is deeply ingrained into their collective mindset.

On to the horse

The selectively breed gypsy horse is rare, even among those who originated the breed. I don't think anyone on the gyspy side of the arguement will disagree with that statement. That those who are Enlgish or have lived in England for a while will attest, you can buy a "gyspy type" for next to nothing. No one here is denying that... What we are trying to say is that there IS a difference between those horses and the horses we are trying to establish in the US.

The gyspy aren't fools, and are happy to sell Americans their horses, and would sell us their lesser quiality horses for the same price as their keepers. That is where knowledge of the breed comes in.

You CAN go straight to the breeders, meet them at the fairs and do your own dickering. No one says you can't. And if you know what to look for, you can bring a horse home, cheaper than from the importers... BUT you still have to deal with the importation and quarantine cost.

No matter if your horse is a nag or a dream, the cost is the same, so you may as well do your homework and get a good one.

Now you can let others do the leg work for you... that is what the American importers are banking on. And they will and should make a profit. If you think it is too much, then do it yourself...

As to all the nastiness and breed bashing, I think a good share of it comes down to jeliousy. Yes, Gypsies have been marketed to the US consumer... Was that easy, was it cheap? Would you even be discussing these horses had it not been done? In answer to all of those questions, I think not. Are the people buying these horses being duped? Some may think so, but then those who are spending the money, seem pretty happy.

And if that's the case, why are some of you getting so bent out of shape? If you don't like the breed, don't buy them. Simple as that. In time, the wheat will separate from the chaff, that what those involved in breeding traditional gypsy horses are counting on...

bfshires

Feb. 24, 2004, 08:25 AM

Hello all,
My name is Jeff Bartko, and my farm is Black Forest Shires & Gypsy horses. We are North America's largest and most experienced importer of gypsy horses, as well as the 2nd largest breeder of these horses in North America. We currently have over 30 gypsy cobs here on our farm in Colorado. Whether you call them Gypsy Cobs, Vanners, or Horses, they all come from the same pool of horses in England and Ireland.
Some which are imported have traceable pedigrees, some don't. The vast majority of imported gypsy cobs, horses, vanners are eligible for registry in any of the various gypsy registries springing up for them in the USA. They are largely not registered in Europe because a) gypsies don't "do" paperwork, and b) papers in general aren't nearly as important in Europe as they are in the USA.
The largest registry for this type of horse in the USA, representing the most breeders and horses, is the Gypsy Cob Society of America.

If you strip off all the marketing, hype, and whatever else comes along with the different names for this breed in the USA, and get back to the basics, you will see why they are becoming so popular here in North America... The Horse. When people meet them, they love them, even if they haven't heard all of the "magical" tales and yarns that are so freely spread about. These horses enrapture people all by themselves, once someone meets them, they don't forget them. People in Europe have had this type of horse around them forever, and are somewhat "desensitized" to their charms. In North America, a place almost completely made up of warm blooded breeds (which includes all the quarters, paints, morgans, saddlebreds, etc, etc, etc), a truly cold-blooded, quiet, gentle, sturdy horse that was bred to love people is something that has been lacking here. What keeps the demand up for us is repeat clients, and people who have met our horses or our clients horses. These guys really sell themselves when people meet them. If they weren't from overseas, or from gypsy breeders, or never had a marketing campaign, the same would be true. These horses fill a "niche" that was previously unfilled in the USA, and people respond to that. What we tell people over and over again is "come meet them, you'll love them!".

We make approximately 10 trips per year overseas to look for horses, with trips ranging from 1 week to 6 weeks each time. We frequently take people interested in this breed with us to meet the breeders and the horses which we review/import. This is a great way to get the real "scoop" on this breed of horse and the people who breed them.
We invite you to visit our website, email, or phone us to learm more about this breed and why it is quickly becoming popular in this country. We will help you seperate the myths, legends, and visions from the facts & truths.
We hope to hear from you soon.

Regards,
-Jeff Bartko
Black Forest Shires & Gypsy Horses
www.gypsyhorses.com (http://www.gypsyhorses.com)

Xanthoria

Feb. 24, 2004, 08:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Celtic Witch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
It IS NOT SURPRISING AT ALL THAT YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND. tHAT IS NOT MEANT TO BE HATEFUL OR ARROGANT IN ANY WAY. THERE IS A BREED THAT WAS MISSED in the process of yours and others understanding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bull shite.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto.

silver

Feb. 24, 2004, 08:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xanthoria:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Celtic Witch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
It IS NOT SURPRISING AT ALL THAT YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND. tHAT IS NOT MEANT TO BE HATEFUL OR ARROGANT IN ANY WAY. THERE IS A BREED THAT WAS MISSED in the process of yours and others understanding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bull shite.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ditto again. And while we're on the topic of cultural sensitivity: I wouldn't recommend calling people "knackers"

Xanthoria

Feb. 24, 2004, 08:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SothernGypsy:
The English have been trying to get rid of them for centuries as well, and the prejudice is deeply ingrained into their collective mindset.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're saying that the "English" don't know anything about Gypsy horse because they're prejudiced against Gypsies? I could counter that by saying Americans could never know anything about Appaloosas!

I think you're missing the point, not to mention insulting a lot of people on this board.

The point, if I may bring it up *once again* is not the horses and whether or not we like them, it's the tacky and insulting "Holy Bejesus: Leprechauns!" marketing and the lies about pedigrees and registries we've seen here.

By the way, did you know Great Britain is composed of English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish peoples? That may be a clue as to the depth and thoroughness of your knowledge of the UK...

silver

Feb. 24, 2004, 08:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
The ranting and raving on this thread is out of control. I don't understand why there are 9 pages of (mostly) breed and breeder bashing. If you have been personally offended by a Gypsy Vanner, then I can understand all the hate.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe if you saw your own country being consistently misrepresented you would be annoyed too. Especially so if you were then told you were wrong.

For example on bfshires site he refers to the "Romany or Travller" people. These are two distinct groups ethnically and culturally from two different areas of the world. They speak two differnt languages.

I'm not "jealous", I am NOT going to set up a horse importing business, lol. I'm just, lets say, skeptical. If anyone wants to tell me where they get these specially bred horses, I might be less skeptical, but they won't so I'm not going to chnage my mind.

SothernGypsy

Feb. 25, 2004, 12:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xanthoria:

I think you're missing the point, not to mention insulting a lot of people on this board.

By the way, did you know Great Britain is composed of English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish peoples? That may be a clue as to the depth and thoroughness of your knowledge of the UK...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy Are some people getting testy and vicious! And actually, yes, I did know the ethnic make up of the UK, I am of Irish,welsh, and scottish desent with a bit of German thrown in... I currently live in Germany and have been privledged to travel quite a bit, but thank you so much for trying to further my education...

And YES, To some degree I am saying that the English overlook what they have in their own back yard, and that prejudice may play a factor in it.

As to selling Americans a line of bull about pedigrees, that is so not true... At least not the reputable importers, look at any horse that they are selling and ASK... if they have the info, it will be provided, and if not you are told up front. In most cases it is not a pedigree, so much as known parentage, because the people who breed these horse do not have a registery. What you choose to do after that is completely up to the buyer.

There are several registries in the US that you can join, those registries are fully aware that the stock is mostly unregistered in the UK. Guidelines and standards are being setup to improve the breed further. It is being marketed as new breed in the US, and as a new breed there is much work to be done. Those who are spending that kind of money know the risks. What I truely don't understand is why you begrudge them the option to do so? Some people seem to place no value on the horses, but if someone else does, you get all bent out of shape. Supposedly because Americans are being duped, I, for one, have done my homework, so done't feel that you have to jump in and save me from myself.

Some people here don't want to hear anything positive about the gypsy horses and have their minds made up, that's fine, but is it really productive to make personal attacks implying that as Americans we are ignorant hayseeds, that need education from our betters?

I posted one comment, and got jumped on and accused of insulting people on the board, that was not my intent, but i'm sure others cannot say the same.

JuniorJumper01

Feb. 25, 2004, 04:34 AM

bfshires-Might as well give up now and save yourself some frustration, even though I agree with you.

(psssst, some women on COTH have very strong opinions. Might as well tell them they're right and move on with life. Some of us, however, are still working on that last part.)

Have a nice day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Vanner

Feb. 25, 2004, 06:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by titan:
Vanner-check your private topics, I had a question for you.

http://www.positivestepfarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry How do you do that ? Do you mean my e-mail ?

titan

Feb. 25, 2004, 07:20 AM

Vanner, the email in your profile didn't work so I sent you a PT. Go to the My Space button at the top of the BB and check your private topics. You can respond via the forum or you can email me directly with your correct address. Thanks.

http://www.positivestepfarm.com

Celtic Witch

Feb. 25, 2004, 07:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SothernGypsy:
And YES, To some degree I am saying that the English overlook what they have in their own back yard, and that prejudice may play a factor in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly.

Coloured cobs are exceedingly popular in England as ride and drives and everyday horses due to their generally quiet temperament (though they are the worse to retrain once they've been allowed to be a bully), the fact that they are very good doers, and are readily available and thus cheap to purchase. They are the mainstay of British riding schools.

No one on here is denying that these can be nice horses to drive or for the amateur with little to no competition goals.

All of this has been said before.

What we are getting hackles up over is the blatant lies many use in advertising these horses. If I have to repeat that again, I'm just taking my brandy back to my cave.

Furthermore, the only difference I see between the photos of horses imported and those I dealt with in the UK is that most riding schools do not have the time to allow the horses manes to grow to such lengths nor to deal with the feathering and thus both are kept short in general.

Otherwise, they look like your average, well loved and well cared for cob.

Susie

Coreene

Feb. 25, 2004, 11:58 AM

A joke from Rufus, our Oirish Harse friend:

An Irishman moves into a tiny hamlet in County Kerry, walks into the pub and promptly orders three beers. The bartender raises his eyebrows, but serves the man three beers, which he drinks quietly at a table, alone.

An hour later, the man has finished the three beers and orders three more. This happens yet again. The next evening the man again orders and drinks three beers at a time, several times.

Soon the entire town is whispering about the Man Who Orders Three Beers. Finally, a week later, the bartender broaches the subject on behalf of the town. "I don't mean to pry, but folks around here are wondering why you always order three beers?"

"Tis odd, isn't it?" the man replies, "You see, I have two brothers, and one went to America, and the other to Australia. We promised each other that we would always order an extra two beers whenever we drank as a way of keeping up the family bond."

The bartender and the whole town was pleased with this answer, and soon the Man Who Orders Three Beers became a local celebrity and source of pride to the hamlet, even to the extent that out-of-towners would come to watch him drink.

Then, one day, the man comes in and orders only two beers. The bartender pours them with a heavy heart. This continues for the rest of the evening: he orders only two beers. The word flies around town.

Prayers are offered for the soul of one of the brothers. The next day, the bartender says to the man, "Folks around here, me first of all, want to offer condolences to you for the death of your brother. You know -- the two beers and all..."

The man ponders this for a moment, then replies, "You'll be happy to hear that my two brothers are alive and well. It's just that I, meself, have decided to give up drinking for Lent."

Weatherford

Feb. 25, 2004, 01:37 PM

Ah, Coreene, yer man tauld ye an aulde 'un... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

deltawave

Feb. 26, 2004, 07:10 PM

So I got my very first issue of "Horse & Hound" today (Xmas gift to myself) and went looking...

450 horses for sale (drool) of all shapes and sizes, from minis, to donkeys, to driving horses, to adorable show ponies to 4* horses...not ONE "Gypsy Vanner", "Gypsy Cob" or Gypsy ANYTHING. Imagine that! There were indeed several nice, sturdy spotted cobs for sale...the most expensive one was 2500 pounds, most were around 1000.

Send them over here, increase the price by an order of magnitude, sprinkle some blarney/Irish magic and voila'! It's a new breed! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

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"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
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Chaser

Feb. 27, 2004, 05:23 AM

Hey deltawave, off topic somewhat, but how does the mix of horse and ponies for sale in H&H differ from what you would see in the equivalent US mag? I get H&H but haven't seen any American publications.

deltawave

Feb. 27, 2004, 07:25 AM

Chaser, maybe it's a "the grass is always greener" phenomenon, but I *LOVE* H&H's for sale pages! Not only are there tons of COLOR pictures, but the variety of horses is fantastic...everything (like I said above) from Advanced eventers to adorable fuzzy Shetlands and everything in between. Using the COTH as the prototypical "horse for sale" publication (of course there is more to it than that...) I'd say the ads here PALE in comparison. You can find pricey photo ads scattered throughout the magazine, but the majority are VERY small ads, less than 20 words, and the variety of horses in COTH is more limited: hunters, jumpers, dressage horses, eventers, show ponies--99% show horses.

Another thing I simply love in H&H is the text in the ads...you can tell people really love their horses: "price not as imporant as 5* home for our wonderful, beloved pony" or "very sadly and hopelessly outgrown, rider devastated" or "genuine reason for sale, horse is a fantastic doer in all ways". I know it's just the language difference, but I find it SO charming! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And hey, while we're on the topic...would you mind translating some of the abbreviations in those ads? I know what PC and ODE stand for, but there are SO many others! RC, WHP, SHP, cradle classic! Please 'splain! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW, I believe the COTH ads are on the COTH website www.chronofhorse.com (http://www.chronofhorse.com) if you want to have a look.

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"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

Chaser

Feb. 27, 2004, 07:32 AM

Hhm. I suppose the distances you deal with make a difference. Perhaps non-show horses are advertised in local publications.

Abbreviations: RC -- Riding Club; WHP Working Hunter Pony; SHP Show Hunter Pony; Cradle Classic show class for small ponies/children.

Any others I can help with? (Perhaps this needs to be a new topic if there are lots!)

Thanks for the link. I've been barred from getting to CoTH for ages because of "SEX CONTENT" !! Following your link worked.

deltawave

Feb. 27, 2004, 08:50 AM

Chaser, too funny! Maybe because there are "breeding issues" and "stallion" ads for (gasp) frozen semen? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif If you PT me your mailing address I'd be happy to send you a copy of the Chronicle for your reading enjoyment. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I can probably come up with about a dozen more abbreviations that mystify me...I will definitely post this on a separate topic once I get home and start digging through my copy of H&H again. Showing in the UK seems to be of SUCH a wide variety, and I'm sure we could all learn from a description. Thanks!

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!