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View Full Version : Photo added- pg 3- What would you do with a GORGEOUS, unregistered andalusian filly?



springer
Jan. 30, 2011, 11:26 AM
This is a very long story. I purchased a very lovely purebred andalusian filly from a breeder- ironically, to help save her farm from default, and because she regretted selling the filly almost immediately things went downhill between us very quickly. Looooong story. This is the second horse I have purchased from this breeder. I have email documentation of the whole transaction. Even though the IALHA is aware of the situation and sympathetic, they cannot and will not intervene. The breeder will not answer phone calls or emails. Part of the deal was that she would receive the first foal from this filly; which I would completely honor, but she won't respond to any attempts we have made to contact her. So, bottom line is- I have this now 3 yr old filly, I am in love with this filly. She will never be sold regardless. But I am trying to decide which route to take with her-
Breeding her... her babies would be registered only as half andalusians even though they would actually be purebred.
Showing her... she has HUGE, though baroque type movement (paddling). How is baroque type movement looked at by (non baroque) dressage judges? Is it considered a fault?
If nothing else she will be with us forever and we will just trail ride her and enjoy her. She is an absolute love. Which direction would you take with this girl?

Hampton Bay
Jan. 30, 2011, 12:01 PM
Well, the first thing I would do is send certified letter to the breeder, demnding the ppers on the filly, or you will file in smll clims court. Then file in small clims. It's inexpensive to file, plus you don't need lwyer.

Then I would mke decision bsed on tht.

Pddling, if it's extreme might get you penalized, but otherwise, from wht I hve been told, If everything else is just fine the pddling won't be considered relly. I'm sure it depends on the judge. My filly is hlf-Lusitno, so she doesn't pddle (Luso's tend not to pddle).

But in ny cse, I would hve her strted in dressge. Even if you do breed her, tht trining will help her out in cse she ever MUST be sold, like if something hppens to you.

Mrs.ChickenBritches
Jan. 30, 2011, 12:08 PM
I would definitely have her started in dressage. As to the breeding...do you really need to?

Also, Hampton Bay, what happened to your a's? Or is it just my computer?:)

jumpsnake
Jan. 30, 2011, 12:13 PM
I would certainly train her in dressage, and show her some and see what happens. (Or, send her to me and I'll show her for you:winkgrin:)

Personally I think broodies only have a real risk factor- what if you get sick/ other catastrophe? If she is not 'useful' as a riding horse she may end up in a bad way. It is like insurance to have her be trained for some sort of job.

MysticOakRanch
Jan. 30, 2011, 12:18 PM
Paddling is not really a fault in movement as long as it doesn't interfere with the ability to extend the gaits. If she has an extreme paddle, the judges won't look at it favorably - because it affects the function of the gait (for extension, and possibly for interference and even injury). But if it isn't extreme, most judges won't comment - in the USDF DSHB program, they are quite clear that paddling is not a fault as long as it doesn't interfere with the functionality of the gait.

I think Hmpton is right - you may have to persue the registration issue in court, ugh, but at least you can get her going and ride and show her. What a shame to run into a breeder like that :no:

CatOnLap
Jan. 30, 2011, 12:27 PM
Well, the first thing I would do is send certified letter to the breeder, demnding the ppers on the filly, or you will file in smll clims court. Then file in small clims. It's inexpensive to file, plus you don't need lwyer.

Then I would mke decision bsed on tht.

Pddling, if it's extreme might get you penalized, but otherwise, from wht I hve been told, If everything else is just fine the pddling won't be considered relly. I'm sure it depends on the judge. My filly is hlf-Lusitno, so she doesn't pddle (Luso's tend not to pddle).

But in ny cse, I would hve her strted in dressge. Even if you do breed her, tht trining will help her out in cse she ever MUST be sold, like if something hppens to you.

^^ what does it say?

lorilu
Jan. 30, 2011, 12:57 PM
Was she DNA'd? (Lips are - I do not know about Andys)? Maybe you can use the DNA t prove your case and get papers?
L

poltroon
Jan. 30, 2011, 01:01 PM
I would train her for dressage and ride and show her.

The papers would be nice. Without papers, I would not breed her until and unless she becomes a performance superstar.

This breeder who wants the first foal from her seems to be shooting herself in the foot if she won't allow registration. The breeder is also missing out on a chance to get credit for her program producing this nice filly.

Petstorejunkie
Jan. 30, 2011, 01:02 PM
Let's face it, a proven mare with a show record will always throw a higher priced baby than one that sat around in a pasture with an unproven pedigree.
you like her, she's your horse, go ride her.

RedHorses
Jan. 30, 2011, 01:04 PM
^^ what does it say?

Apparently HB's only allowed one "a" per post. :lol:


Originally Posted by Hampton Bay
Well, the first thing I would do is send a certified letter to the breeder, demanding the papers on the filly, or you will file in small claims court. Then file in small claims. It's inexpensive to file, plus you don't need a lawyer.

Then I would make a decision based on that.

Paddling, if it's extreme might get you penalized, but otherwise, from what I have been told, If everything else is just fine the paddling won't be considered really. I'm sure it depends on the judge. My filly is half-Lusitano, so she doesn't paddle (Luso's tend not to paddle).

But in any case, I would have her started in dressage. Even if you do breed her, that training will help her out in case she ever MUST be sold, like if something happens to you.

dghunter
Jan. 30, 2011, 01:05 PM
Apparently HB's only allowed one "a" per post. :lol:

:lol::lol: My "s" key broke once where you had to hit it really hard to make it work. It was so obnoxious most of the time I wrote without it and let my computer auto-correct!

I would agree with the others and ride her! :yes:

springer
Jan. 30, 2011, 01:09 PM
[quote=poltroon;5391573]I would train her for dressage and ride and show her.

The papers would be nice. Without papers, I would not breed her until and unless she becomes a performance superstar.

This breeder who wants the first foal from her seems to be shooting herself in the foot if she won't allow registration. The breeder is also missing out on a chance to get credit for her program producing this nice filly.[/quote

Yes, she is definitely doing herself a disservice. Not just with this filly, but the other horse I purchased from her. My dressage trainer recently purchased him and he is turning into a little dressage superstar. She is also withholding paperwork on him, and I've owned him and raised him since he was a weanling. (he is now 5 yrs old) He was purchased with the understanding I didn't have papers on him; he is that special. But she will get no recognition when he goes on to show at rated dressage shows this year.

GoForAGallop
Jan. 30, 2011, 02:55 PM
Yes, she is definitely doing herself a disservice. Not just with this filly, but the other horse I purchased from her. My dressage trainer recently purchased him and he is turning into a little dressage superstar. She is also withholding paperwork on him, and I've owned him and raised him since he was a weanling. (he is now 5 yrs old) He was purchased with the understanding I didn't have papers on him; he is that special. But she will get no recognition when he goes on to show at rated dressage shows this year.

You're surprised that she's withholding the papers on the second horse when she did the exact same thing on the first?

Don't breed her until you get a good show record on her. Because as it stands, she's just a pretty grade mare standing in the pasture. Sorry, that's how it is. YOU know she has papers, but no one else does. Everyone thinks my (registered, papered) Quarter Horse is an Andalusian, just because he was a stud so has a thicker build and a snorty attitude, plus he's grey. :lol:

Megaladon
Jan. 30, 2011, 03:09 PM
Have you looked into PRE? I'm not familiar with their 'thing', (my horses are IALHA), but maybe you could go that route if perhaps the stud was approved with them?...:confused:

At any rate, definitely train her and put some miles on her. She will make you a lovely little horse. Then if you decide to breed, do it for yourself. :cool:

Hampton Bay
Jan. 30, 2011, 04:50 PM
My keybord is broken. Sorry, hopefully someone cn piece it together. :lol:

springer
Jan. 30, 2011, 05:08 PM
My keybord is broken. Sorry, hopefully someone cn piece it together. :lol:

Don't worry HB, I got your drift! :)

Thanks for the advice- I like the idea of a registered letter. The problem is that she never even bothered to register my filly's DAM. Some breeder, huh? Although the dam is very well bred herself and she owns both of HER parents. I don't think anyone can force her to do that though. Unfortunately I have nothing in writing from her gauranteeing papers. It was assumed.
I guess the only hope I have is that she will be forced to sell all of her horses and someone more professional and ethical will become their new owners.

Mrs.ChickenBritches
Jan. 30, 2011, 05:35 PM
But what about the "Give me your firstborn" part? Is there a way to get around that or did I miss something? It would really stink to have her bred and then possibly lose the baby to this um, woman.

sparky6
Jan. 30, 2011, 05:52 PM
But what about the "Give me your firstborn" part? Is there a way to get around that or did I miss something? It would really stink to have her bred and then possibly lose the baby to this um, woman.

That's easy. Unless there's something in writing saying when she has to breed her she can hold out as long as she wants. I wouldn't breed her without a show record. As someone else pointed out, you know the truth but to everyone else she has no pedigree. You should probably start making decisions from that perspective because the breeder is such a fruitbat.

Of course, that might not matter because unless it's somewhere in writing (I realize you have an email thread, but you didn't specify what was covered in those emails) the breeder can't claim that foal, just like you can't force the breeder to register her mother and then her. Hate to say it, but at this point registration kind of sounds like a lost cause.

But the silver lining is you've got yourself a nice girl who you can enjoy thoroughly. If you want to train her to be the next best dressage horse, go for it! If you want her to be a pleasure/trail horse, that's great! Stop worrying about what you should do with her based on the breeder and start thinking about what you want from her. That's what matters :)

tempichange
Jan. 30, 2011, 05:58 PM
Paddling is considered a fault in breeding stock.

The best you can do is as stated above, send registered letter to the original owner. Meantime, since ILAHA does DNA type every purebred, contact the Gluck (or whoever they use to test) center to have the mare DNA typed.

Usually, if seller does not submit transfer and you happen to submit a bill of sale plus genetic result, the registrar has to take notice and do something about it.

angel
Jan. 30, 2011, 06:18 PM
I would certain get her performance along to 2nd level before I bred her regardless of whether or not you get the papers. If you cannot get the papers after the legal attempt that was suggested by someone else, then if you do breed her later on, you might consider an Arabian cross. Half-Arabians have more doors open to them than half-Andies.;)

Hampton Bay
Jan. 30, 2011, 07:39 PM
Hm, if the dam isn't even registered, then you might just be up a creek unless you would be fine with only having half-Andy papers on her. In that case, go ahead and send that registered letter, get the breeder to sign the application, and have her registered. All you REALLY need is the signature of the breeder on the forms.

babecakes
Jan. 30, 2011, 07:51 PM
You're surprised that she's withholding the papers on the second horse when she did the exact same thing on the first?






The problem is that she never even bothered to register my filly's DAM.

Well there you go, in a nutshell. You were the buyer and you knew all this, so.... why does this not surprise me?

springer
Jan. 31, 2011, 11:44 AM
Well there you go, in a nutshell. You were the buyer and you knew all this, so.... why does this not surprise me?

Actually, no. I didn't know any of this going in. I never ASKED for the papers on the first horse, but once all of this went down with the filly she told me I would never get his papers either. I never really cared about his papers. He is a gelding and I had never intended to sell him. As far as my filly's dam, I never knew she was not registered til I called the IALHA to check. I never knew it going into the purchase agreement for the filly.

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2011, 12:06 PM
Paddling is not really a fault in movement as long as it doesn't interfere with the ability to extend the gaits. If she has an extreme paddle, the judges won't look at it favorably - because it affects the function of the gait (for extension, and possibly for interference and even injury). But if it isn't extreme, most judges won't comment - in the USDF DSHB program, they are quite clear that paddling is not a fault as long as it doesn't interfere with the functionality of the gait.

She was asking about showing in dressage in general, such as open classes (at least that's how I read her question). So your response would be incorrect. NO, paddling does not influence the score as long as the horse can perform the movement.


As for papers. Who cares? Unless you're going to breed her and sell the babies, what's the big deal? I argue with a breeder friend about this all the time. I don't want to breed. I spend the money based on what the horse is worth as a show horse, not as a broodmare. Brands on the hip mean nothing to me and I would not spend extra for it.

So, it depends on what you want her for in the first place. As for a baroque mover (not necessarily a paddler), it depends on the judge and also how good her basic training is and how well you can present her. :D

springer
Jan. 31, 2011, 12:37 PM
She was asking about showing in dressage in general, such as open classes (at least that's how I read her question). So your response would be incorrect. NO, paddling does not influence the score as long as the horse can perform the movement.


As for papers. Who cares? Unless you're going to breed her and sell the babies, what's the big deal? I argue with a breeder friend about this all the time. I don't want to breed. I spend the money based on what the horse is worth as a show horse, not as a broodmare. Brands on the hip mean nothing to me and I would not spend extra for it.

So, it depends on what you want her for in the first place. As for a baroque mover (not necessarily a paddler), it depends on the judge and also how good her basic training is and how well you can present her. :D

Thanks Velvet! Yeah, I'm not sure why I really care. The upside is that if I breed her to an andalusian or a lusitano, her babies can be registered as half andalusians. They wouldn't sell for as much, but they truly would be purebreds. That I can prove as I have documentation from the breeder's website as to what her breeding is. It's printed out and filed!!!!
I only hope that this woman will pay in some way for her dishonest business practices. I have heard from others that she has a very, um, questionable reputation.

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 31, 2011, 01:08 PM
This crap with the papers is the reason that I think that every horse's DNA should be tested and registered. I am surprised that all registries don't do it yet.

I worked for a breeder many years ago and was very surprised how mares who had died, were barren or had been sold suddenly had foals. And surprise!, unpapered horses that she bought suddenly were the offspring of these mares and/or her long deceased stallion. :mad: Makes me crazy.

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 31, 2011, 01:33 PM
She was asking about showing in dressage in general, such as open classes (at least that's how I read her question). So your response would be incorrect. NO, paddling does not influence the score as long as the horse can perform the movement.


As for papers. Who cares? Unless you're going to breed her and sell the babies, what's the big deal? I argue with a breeder friend about this all the time. I don't want to breed. I spend the money based on what the horse is worth as a show horse, not as a broodmare. Brands on the hip mean nothing to me and I would not spend extra for it.

So, it depends on what you want her for in the first place. As for a baroque mover (not necessarily a paddler), it depends on the judge and also how good her basic training is and how well you can present her. :D

HOY breed awards are only available to registered horses.

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2011, 01:38 PM
HOY breed awards are only available to registered horses.

I'm still missing the point. Maybe that matters to some people, but local club/GMO awards are not generally influenced by having papers, and rider awards are not influenced by them at all.

As for HOY awards, I think that having this breed-centric behavior in our sport is detrimental to the sport as a whole. I remember the old backyard bred horses or paperless OTTBs doing some magical performances long before the day and age of caring about a pedigree.

I still think a person can have one heck of a great time without pursuing uber-expensive HOY awards. :yes:

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 31, 2011, 01:53 PM
I'm still missing the point. Maybe that matters to some people, but local club/GMO awards are not generally influenced by having papers, and rider awards are not influenced by them at all.

As for HOY awards, I think that having this breed-centric behavior in our sport is detrimental to the sport as a whole. I remember the old backyard bred horses or paperless OTTBs doing some magical performances long before the day and age of caring about a pedigree.

I still think a person can have one heck of a great time without pursuing uber-expensive HOY awards. :yes:

You asked "who cares." Some people (those who participate in HOY awards) do care. Others, like yourself, do not. Personally, I do not have a dog in this fight.

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 31, 2011, 01:56 PM
Thanks Velvet! Yeah, I'm not sure why I really care. The upside is that if I breed her to an andalusian or a lusitano, her babies can be registered as half andalusians. They wouldn't sell for as much, but they truly would be purebreds. That I can prove as I have documentation from the breeder's website as to what her breeding is. It's printed out and filed!!!!
I only hope that this woman will pay in some way for her dishonest business practices. I have heard from others that she has a very, um, questionable reputation.


Um, if the breeder has a questionable reputation, why would you believe that what she says on her website is true?

Lots of what you are saying (i.e., (1) you knew the dam wasn't registered and (2) you only bought this foal to bail out the breeder financially) don't add up. Your post smacks of a personal vendetta.

springer
Jan. 31, 2011, 02:11 PM
Um, if the breeder has a questionable reputation, why would you believe that what she says on her website is true?

Lots of what you are saying (i.e., (1) you knew the dam wasn't registered and (2) you only bought this foal to bail out the breeder financially) don't add up. Your post smacks of a personal vendetta.

EXCUSE ME????????????
I DIDN'T know the dam was not registered until I checked with the IALHA. After the dispute began. And I bailed the woman out because I cared about her and her program. I've known her since I purchased my other horse back in 2006. I didn't have a SUPER close friendship with her, not one where I knew every detail of her horses and their registration status. But I am familiar with her program and have met her horses. Yes, it is personal. I am very hurt by what she did to me. Wouldn't you be? If you'd like more details you may pm me. Otherwise, I don't think you know enough of the history here to be making statements like this.

AnotherRound
Jan. 31, 2011, 03:25 PM
I would show her and not breed her because she is unregistered. Even registered, you want her to have a show profile behind her to upgrade the value of her foals.

If you can register her in some other warmblood registry which might mean something to top end breeders/buyers, then go ahead, but only if your research shows her foals would be desireable in that registry.

I'm making this up - I don't know what the qualifications are - but if you had her evaluated and approved by say Oldernburger Verband, then she could be an oldenburg mare, and you could breed her to say, hanovarians and the foals approved by oldenburg. Like I say, I'm making it up, I don't think Oldenburg approves of an andalusion type, their type is different, but I could be alltogether wrong, I only made up an idea of an example type.

If you did geet her registered (and I'm not talking about 'american warmblood' or something which is designed to put a title on grade horses) then depending on that registration, you could plan a breeding campaign with her, however, your foals will do better with her performance, always.

I would personally not breed her, because of the lack of registration, and I would absolutely show her dressage and take her as far as her beautiful mind and conformation will enable her to go.

Hope that helps you to think about her clearly.

If you still have thoughts of pusuing the breeder, I would drop those. That woman didn't care enough about her horses to register them, or their dams, and now you want her to care about a horse which she doesn't even own any more? That's a personality flaw on her part, and I would just let it go. You are actually asking the breeder to register the dam and then register the filly/mare and I think if she was ever capable of doing that, she would have by now.

I would walk away from her and not bother her any more about it.

Next time, if you want to breed, be sure to research your breeder for ethics!!

Good luck - I hope we get to see a pic of this girl - and I hope we get to see a pic of her dressage training!

AnotherRound
Jan. 31, 2011, 03:34 PM
I cared about her and her program.

Oh, dear. I read your frustration in the post above mine.

May I gently point out to you that a breeder's "program" includes the responsibility of registering her horses? Of breeding registered horses, and of promoting and furthering the lines of the horses she cares about, which become lost when she doesn't register them?

So, in some senses, this breeder's program really is not one you want to be seen "supporting" or bailing out, in the end. Her program sort of screwed you, or her lack of an ethical program being responsible towards her horses and their future usees and future owners, so while I understand your emotional investment, over time, I hope you can take a step back and see that her program wasn't well conceived if it didn't include registration of the horses, and integrety towards their new owners. Prbably having to "bail her out" in some manner also indicates a lack of responsibility towards her own program, I'm sorry to say.

I'm sorry you got caught up in her and that it hurt you to deal with her. Your feelings will subside, and then you will be left with two beautiful horses, which we all hope you will train and care for and present to the height of their ability and beauty.

Good luck. Sorry its been a tough situation.

SisterToSoreFoot
Jan. 31, 2011, 03:36 PM
Forget about breeding. Paddling isn't a fault; it's part of "brio." It isn't even a soundness issue as long as the horse lands evenly on the foot (i.e. the flight path can be outward, but the foot should (and can) still strike evenly).

Plus, if she's only three, she may grow out of some of the paddling. My 3 year old, when his chest was still sooooo scrawny, paddled a bit, probably because he was so narrow in front. As he matures, his paddling has become a slight (and IMO, cute) signature of his movement.

ptownevt
Jan. 31, 2011, 04:00 PM
There are just way too many nice horses going to low end auctions and slaughter to breed anything that doesn't have both papers AND a performance record. I'm sure she's lovely but that is the truth. Give her an insurance policy by training her.

springer
Jan. 31, 2011, 08:55 PM
There are just way too many nice horses going to low end auctions and slaughter to breed anything that doesn't have both papers AND a performance record. I'm sure she's lovely but that is the truth. Give her an insurance policy by training her.

Thanks you guys (most of you anyway)
I will be starting her late this summer- she will be 3 1/2. I have this thing about starting horses no earlier than that.
Anyway, yes- she will be trained and developed regardless, and the only reason all of this bothers me so much is that it is so freakin' unfair. I am an honest, caring person. My heart went out to this woman cause she was in a bind and I loved her horses. This filly is the half sister to my gelding, who is by the same sire but out of an Azteca dam. He is not full andalusian; my filly is.
I really and truly hope no matter what happens, her horses have a happy ending because they are very special. Probably the finest andalusians I have seen in this country.

Cindyg
Jan. 31, 2011, 10:16 PM
I definitely think you were ripped off. You paid for a purebred, registered (or eligible) horse. And with a mare, it matters a lot.

I got ripped off similarly with a dog. The breeder told me as soon as he was fixed, she would send me his papers. I got the puppy fixed, sent her the proof, and no papers were forthcoming. Many attempts later, it turns out the mother dog was never registered either. As much as I love this dog, had she offered him for sale without papers, the price would have been a lot lower. That's just how the market is.

Now with a dog, who is a pet, and fixed, well, OK, it's not such a big deal. But it still chaps me. But with your mare, it's a bigger deal.

What would I do? I'd publicize the breeder's name -- at least if she's actively breeding or promoting her farm. If she's laying low, I guess what's the point.

You're in a frustrating situation. I sympathize.

fordtraktor
Jan. 31, 2011, 10:34 PM
If I were you I would send her a registered letter demanding the papers by such and such a date and informing her that if you do not receive them that she will be forfeiting any right to the mare's firstborn, since you do not intend to breed the mare if you do not get her papers.

That might make it worth it to her. I would just be sure not to make any promises to actually breed the mare if she does come through with the papers -- leave that open so that she cannot have a legal claim to force you to breed her.

Lostboy
Jan. 31, 2011, 10:45 PM
registered/certified letter demanding paperwork and tme limit to comply.
File suit, have her served..(at this point she may produce something)
organize your info and whatever was on her web reviously about that horse (if you saved a screeny)
be sure to ask for a judgement of money to pay fopr the regstration process.. make sure you know what ,if anytihng will be due

No papers.. forget breeding her..

fordtraktor
Feb. 1, 2011, 09:51 AM
PS, in your demand letter, you might consider in the alternative asking for a refund for the difference between her value registered breeding stock and unregistered/not breeding stock, since you paid for a registered horse but got an unregistered one that is not suitable for breeding, of $X amount. And tell her that if you do not hear from her you may be forced to pursue your rights in court. Even better if you get a lawyer to send it on letterhead.

Oh, and ask for $$ to cover your legal costs. Why not?

Or she can give you the papers.

Good luck.

Equibrit
Feb. 1, 2011, 03:11 PM
I would contact USPRE http://usprea.com/ You can look up her parents http://www.lgancce.com/lgpreancce/asp-publico/arbolGenealogicoPRE/BuscarArbolPRE.aspx and see if they have Spanish papers. If you have a bill of sale etc., you may be able to get her registered in Spain.

Eclectic Horseman
Feb. 1, 2011, 03:19 PM
I would contact USPRE http://usprea.com/ You can look up her parents on their website and see if they have Spanish papers. If you do a DNA test with them and have a bill of sale etc., you may be able to get her registered in Spain.

If the dam is not registered, there is not much you can do with that. Particularly since it is my understanding that in Spain breeding stock must be inspected and licensed as three year olds.

Equibrit
Feb. 1, 2011, 03:30 PM
OP said the dam was not registered with IALHA. It does not necessarily follow that she is not registered in Spain.

Eclectic Horseman
Feb. 1, 2011, 04:10 PM
OP said the dam was not registered with IALHA. It does not necessarily follow that she is not registered in Spain.

I must have missed that. I thought she said she found out that the dam wasn't registered anywhere at all.

But all these posters saying that the OP should bring suit to try to get the breeder to fork over the papers are missing the fact that there are no papers to fork over...

sadlmakr
Feb. 1, 2011, 04:50 PM
This whole experience re-enforces the old addage" Let the buyer beware."
The reason this "Breeder" did not register her animals is the cost. It seems through these posts about this, that this "Breeder" is hurting for money, all the time.
Did you get a contract or a bill of sale? Did you get anything written on paper as in a sales agreement?
I have learned the hardway over my lifetime to "Get it in writing"!
I would not breed this mare but I would train her and keep her and when she makes it in the "Big Time", then you can let people know the breeder refuses to give you her registration.
Keep her pedigree if you have it. You might be able to get her registered through the Spanish Registry. But if the breeder will not acknowledge the mare then you can't get a statement of facts from her.
"Tis a mess you got yourself into"...
Never give all the money to the seller until the paperwork is in order.
You may have a fantastic horse but you still got snookered.
And you bought 2 horses from this woman? Both with no papers?
Double snookered...
Sorry but you have got to get more wisdom about such matters.
Perhaps this experience will help you not to let this happen to you again.
Wish you well.
sadlmakr

Equibrit
Feb. 1, 2011, 05:00 PM
"Tis a mess you got yourself into"...
Never give all the money to the seller until the paperwork is in order.
You may have a fantastic horse but you still got snookered.
And you bought 2 horses from this woman? Both with no papers?
Double snookered...
Sorry but you have got to get more wisdom about such matters.
Perhaps this experience will help you not to let this happen to you again.
Wish you well.
sadlmakr

Sometimes this is the only way that the buyer can afford a horse of this kind. (ask me how I know !). I wouldn't discourage somebody from taking advantage of this kind of situation, but you must go in with your eyes open and protect yourself with written proof of promises, if you can. Failing that, you have to decide if you can live with the lack of paperwork. Having decided that you can, it's not good policy to whine about it !

springer
Feb. 1, 2011, 09:57 PM
Thought you guys might like to see the precious baby girl that all this fuss is about! (hope this works)



http://thumb13.webshots.net/t/87/87/5/22/60/2228522600102814773HjMBea_th.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2228522600102814773HjMBea)

5
Feb. 2, 2011, 05:50 PM
Ride her keep her show her love her.
Look what Obama did No papers(birth cert) and he made President.

This is one of my pettiest of peeves when a smart, good, staright legged, sound horse being passed over by an inferior animal with the right papers.

alibi_18
Feb. 2, 2011, 07:20 PM
Ride her keep her show her love her.
Look what Obama did No papers(birth cert) and he made President.

Mr. Obama is born in Hawaï.
Oh, forgot about the conspiracy theory...my bads! :lol:


Is there a reason why suddenly you realised you needed those papers? When you bought her, and your other one, you were not really concerned about it, what made you change your mind?

I can't see much of the picture of your mare but if you like her, put your time, energy and money in training and having fun with her! Good luck! :D

fordtraktor
Feb. 2, 2011, 08:31 PM
But all these posters saying that the OP should bring suit to try to get the breeder to fork over the papers are missing the fact that there are no papers to fork over...

Yet. Breeder can probably get them. But she is the only one who can get the papers, since she needs to register both mother and baby.

I personally probably wouldn't sue over it, but I would send a demand letter and see where I could get with that. Demand letters and pre-litigation is free if you do it yourself, litigation is expensive. YMMV.

And if I felt like Breeder was jerking me around, I might sue out of the general principle of the thing.

springer
Feb. 2, 2011, 08:58 PM
Yet. Breeder can probably get them. But she is the only one who can get the papers, since she needs to register both mother and baby.

I personally probably wouldn't sue over it, but I would send a demand letter and see where I could get with that. Demand letters and pre-litigation is free if you do it yourself, litigation is expensive. YMMV.

And if I felt like Breeder was jerking me around, I might sue out of the general principle of the thing.

Well, guess what? Today we spoke with the IALHA and there is this thing called the ETHICS COMMITTEE. They were very positive about our situation and encouraged us to submit the application- YAY. AND MORE YAY:)

sadlmakr
Feb. 3, 2011, 01:04 PM
'Well, guess what? Today we spoke with the IALHA and there is this thing called the ETHICS COMMITTEE. They were very positive about our situation and encouraged us to submit the application- YAY. AND MORE YAY!"

I am very glad to hear this. I do hope they can iron it out for you and you can get the 2 of them registered.
I second that YAY!
Hoping for the best.
sadlmakr

fordtraktor
Feb. 3, 2011, 01:31 PM
That's great! did they mean the registration application? For the baby or the mother or both? For full papers or half? Do they have DNA testing or will breeder have to verify, and do you think she will, or are they going to bypass that?

Equibrit
Feb. 3, 2011, 01:38 PM
That's great! did they mean the registration application? For the baby or the mother or both? For full papers or half? Do they have DNA testing or will breeder have to verify, and do you think she will, or are they going to bypass that?

Presumably the ethics committee will be sorting that out.

carolprudm
Feb. 3, 2011, 03:42 PM
Thanks Velvet! Yeah, I'm not sure why I really care. The upside is that if I breed her to an andalusian or a lusitano, her babies can be registered as half andalusians. They wouldn't sell for as much, but they truly would be purebreds. That I can prove as I have documentation from the breeder's website as to what her breeding is. It's printed out and filed!!!!
I only hope that this woman will pay in some way for her dishonest business practices. I have heard from others that she has a very, um, questionable reputation.


FWIW at least around here her foal by an Arabian stallion would also be very salable, possibly even moreso than one by an Andy