Can we talk about Lyme again?

[Boston Chicken]

Hi all,

My horse had just not been himself this last few weeks - our last show I even had a hard time getting him around and my horse never stops. Looking back now, he was cranky, grinding his teeth, had intermittent swelling in his hind legs, lost some weight and had seemed stiff in the shoulder. Of course I had the vet out right away and yet again, we're dealing with Lyme disease (it came back at 10,000). They think it's an "unresolved infection" that keeps coming back.

The first time we had tried 3 weeks IV Doxy (edited to add that apparently this is fatal in horses, so I am glad my horse is still alive http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) followed by pills for another 3 weeks. It obviously didn't work so they're trying some other antibiotic now.

My questions are: are there some horses that just don't get better from Lyme? What can I do to help him while he's recovering? The vet wants him to work while he's being medicated but are there things we can be doing to help him feel better?

Thanks for your help - it's very frustrating.

[Boston Chicken]

Hi all,

My horse had just not been himself this last few weeks - our last show I even had a hard time getting him around and my horse never stops. Looking back now, he was cranky, grinding his teeth, had intermittent swelling in his hind legs, lost some weight and had seemed stiff in the shoulder. Of course I had the vet out right away and yet again, we're dealing with Lyme disease (it came back at 10,000). They think it's an "unresolved infection" that keeps coming back.

The first time we had tried 3 weeks IV Doxy (edited to add that apparently this is fatal in horses, so I am glad my horse is still alive http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) followed by pills for another 3 weeks. It obviously didn't work so they're trying some other antibiotic now.

My questions are: are there some horses that just don't get better from Lyme? What can I do to help him while he's recovering? The vet wants him to work while he's being medicated but are there things we can be doing to help him feel better?

Thanks for your help - it's very frustrating.

[Gunnar]

Gillian, I am clueless on Lyme but wanted you and Faun to know I am worrying with you. Hope he gets better soon!

[Boston Chicken]

Thanks Steph http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Given all you're going through, I really appreciate your thoughts. This disease is eating away at my horse's soundness and personality, and I wish there were a surefire way to protect him. It's very hard to see him uncomfortable http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif There is a lot else going on in my life right now so it makes it extra hard...

Kisses to Bodie and big hugs to you

[Posting Trot]

There was a great article in the Horse JOurnal about 2 or 3 years ago, called "Living with Lyme" about the varied experiences of horses after treatment. It's worth going to the website and paying the fee to download the article. http://www.horse-journal.com

In a nutshell, they said that different horses often need different aftertreatments. Some need to be kept on joint supplements, some need to have immune system boosters, some need anti-oxidants, some need to be re-treated periodically with antibiotics.

My horse (treated for lyme 3 years ago) has done well on a flax-based joint supplement, combined with antioxidants. She was treated initially with a 30 day course of doxy, and the vet (who is a regular DVM as well as doing some alternative medicines) then dosed her with artemesia for 30 days. She has not had a relapse of the disease, and she was not diagnosed right away.

Good luck. It's very frustrating, particularly when you're not sure whether you're actually seeing symptoms, or whether it's just a training issue, etc.

[chism]

When we pulled blood for the test , my vet said that if my mare had Lyme, she would recommend IV tetracycline, because in her experience experience Doxy doesn't work. Then when we had the blood results back she said that due to staffing issues she couldn't do the IV and I would just have to do Doxy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Luckily for both of us, it worked.

[Sansena]

Do you do a re-test a month after you stop treatment? That could give you a better baseline on where he is post treatment.

Otherwise, "Some need to be kept on joint supplements, some need to have immune system boosters, some need anti-oxidants, some need to be re-treated periodically with antibiotics." (I agree) All depends upon how quickly it was first caught and what damage it did prior to treatment.

Curious, does your vet prescribe a week of NSAIDS during the initial treatment period? Also, a probiotic?

This lyme thing is a slippery slope. Each horse presents differently... and there's so much contradiction in the studies about treatment/ cure/ re-infection, even 'immunity'.

I'm not much help but you sure have my sympathy.

[Boston Chicken]

Thanks for all your thoughts. He is on a joint supplement (chondrogen EQ) and Transfer Factor (an immuno booster). He also gets Legend ongoing. I consider myself lucky that he's not even stiffer than he already is.

We didn't re-test after his last treatment that I know of - and I have no idea why not. I am usually more thorough than that with following-up with my vet. But he had seemed so much better so I really don't know what happened here. I guess the symptoms come and go...

It does suck - no two ways about it.

[Mary in Area 1]

I have found that most horses need to be on the Doxy for at least 90 days. I had one that was on it for 9 months, but now he is better than ever and has been off the Doxy for a year.

Good luck!

[Boston Chicken]

Thanks, Mary. I guess each vet has their own approach...let's hope that my guy gets what he needs.

[Robyn]

Boston, my gelding was diagnosed with lyme on Tuesday http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif He initially got three IV injections of oxytet, now is on 5000 mil doxy for three weeks. My question is how do you feed the doxy? The stuff I got is capsules so I emptied them and mixed with syrup and then pasted him. Problem is I'm going to be gone this weekend and hubby has to do it. Any way it can be "hidden" in the food? It tasted pretty bitter, but maybe mixed in with his beetpulp still in capsule form? Any advice would be much appreciated as I want to make it as easy as possible for him.

Thanks, and good luck ~
Robin

[Boston Chicken]

Robin - my guy eats everything that isn't nailed down so we don't have issues with that. I had a friend who (I think in the advice of this board) used to put her horse's meds in a little bit of vanilla frosting and the horse would just go to town! Maybe have hubby do that? I bet it would work.

[Kiwayu]

Robyn- What I've been doing to get Kiwayu to eat his doxy is put about 1/4 pound of his normal grain in his bucket, then dump the 50 pills (my vet ordered me these TINY pills instead of the capsules since Kiwayu won't eat anything) on top, then I add enough applesauce and molasses mixed with the pills/grain to make a mush. Kiwayu has been eating every last bit. Of course, he's NOT IR or Cushings, but after this treatment he could turn into that with all the sugar... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Unfortunately that's the only way he'll eat all the pills, so if that's what I have to do, then that's what I'll do.

[Robyn]

Thanks you guys, I'll give both these suggestions to my husband...and will try them both when I get home. He is not a picky eater, but can sure manage to avoid what he doesn't like.

robin

[kcooper]

I am in Lyme pergatory as well. Cleo did a 30 doxy course. Off for three days and all her symptoms came back. She is now on another 30 day course. She gets 100 pills of doxy per day -- they are little tablets. She just eats them in her grain and has never seemed to notice them. I was worried b/c she is picky, but I guess they must not taste bad.
I am worried tho b/c after about 3-4 days on the first round of doxy her symptoms went away almost completely. But now it's been over a week on the second round and she still has symptoms. GGrrrrr! Is this normal?
Mary in Area I -- did you do 9 straight months or did your horse come off, regain symptoms and then go back on?
My vet has said she might need to get IV doxy after the 60 days and then another 30 days of oral after that.
Have you kept your horses in work? I started riding again lightly after the edema in her legs went down and her personality came back to normal. Of course, all fall competition plans were destroyed.
Posting Trot - what is Artemesia?

[kcooper]

PS Anyone know of a cheap place to get the doxy? My vet charges $360 for a 30 day dose. I tried Walmart and they were going to charge more than $700!!

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Robyn:
Boston, my gelding was diagnosed with lyme on Tuesday http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif He initially got three IV injections of oxytet, now is on 5000 mil doxy for three weeks. My question is how do you feed the doxy? The stuff I got is capsules so I emptied them and mixed with syrup and then pasted him. Problem is I'm going to be gone this weekend and hubby has to do it. Any way it can be "hidden" in the food? It tasted pretty bitter, but maybe mixed in with his beetpulp still in capsule form? Any advice would be much appreciated as I want to make it as easy as possible for him.

Thanks, and good luck ~
Robin </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The biggest hassle is emptying the casules.

So don't bother.

I put the capsules in a yogurt container, then add hot water, and wait for the gelatin to dissolve.

For Music I just dump it in with her feed.

For Belle I mix it with apple sauce first.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My vet has said she might need to get IV doxy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I sincerely hope your vet is NOT planning to give IV Doxy.

Please read the posts from Ghazzu (she is a vet). IV doxy is FATAL in horses.

What your vet PROBABLY said was "IV oxytet" which is a form of tetracycline.

[Tux61096]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Boston Chicken:

My questions are: are there some horses that just don't get better from Lyme? What can I do to help him while he's recovering? The vet wants him to work while he's being medicated but are there things we can be doing to help him feel better?

Thanks for your help - it's very frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take care of a horse that has had recurrent Lyme disease for the last 3 years. She has been treated with every drug, in every dose, for unimaginable amounts of time. We monitor her by pulling a titre on her every 6 weeks, when the titre rises, she starts antibiotic treatment again. The good news is that her symptoms do subside with treatment, it just doesn't seem to be permanent.

[Kiwayu]

Ohh man. Hearing all these stories is making me keep my fingers crossed that 30 days of doxy will be enough!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif What kind of "evaluation" do you guys do to see if your horse needs more than just the 30 days? Do you have your vet back out?

[LaBonnieBon]

Kiwayu,
I, too, have been freaking out about people's stories. My horse has RMSF and is still in her 1st week of Doxy.

The thing you need to remember is that each horse is an individual case. I spoke to someone in my vet's office and their horse was rideable for very light work while still on Doxy (3 weeks after the diagnosis). Her horse is now showing o/f and doing fine... no lameness issues either. I plan to wait until the Doxy is completed before I get on my mare, but she's already been back to her normal self and being a complete nut in the field.

It's just like anything else... there is a big range to the illness. Let's just hope you are on the short end - I know it appears I am at this point (hope I can keep it that way!!).

[ImJumpin]

Just for future information, what are the symptoms of Lyme and is it something that horses might show only a couple of signs or every horse will show several of the same symptoms?

[Boston Chicken]

ImJumpin - my understanding is that Lyme shows a whole host of symptoms, or sometimes only a couple. Both times with my gelding, he has shown stiffness, personality change, increased spookiness and some swelling in his hind legs.

Kiwayu - I am riding my horse through his treatment and he has good days and bad days. He's had all good days for the last week and a half, so I just ride and see how it goes. We're working on the flat and forgoing jumping until we're more in the clear.

[Kiwayu]

Boston Chicken- My vet told me no riding for the 1-2 weeks of treatment and then I can get on him, but he canNOT sweat while on the doxy. The only good thing is that it's October and it's only in the 60's during the hotest part of the day. He'll barely sweat, but I have NO idea how I'm going to ride if I can't lunge him first since he's going to be an absolute NUT! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Maybe I can bribe someone to risk their life and hop on my horse... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Boston Chicken]

UGH - I see the problem. It will pass quickly though and then, just take time to get back to your routine. If my horse is not ridden, he loses muscle and fitness so quickly that it's worse to give him total time off if I expect him to perform in the fall and winter. The vet wanted me to just play each day by ear so that's what we're doing. He's still being trained, which helps with his freshness. Being a re-rider, this is important to me.

Here's hoping we both get our horses back soon.

[chism]

My mare's symptoms were lethargy and short stride, she acted arthritic, she was not lame. She is usually a very forward horse and she didn't want to go. Normally she has more go than whoa, she was completely the opposite. In retrospect, I do wish I had of ridden her during her treatment. She's older (17) and now she is SO out of shape. She's lost all her muscle tone. I'm making my 9 year old ride her because I feel guilty putting my big butt on her back.

[Kiwayu]

One of Kiwayu's symptoms was his back hurting him. Part of me feels really bad if I were to get on him before I see total results. I think I might start giving him a tranq and then putting him on the lunge line. I don't know what to do... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Phaxxton]

Why is he not allowed to sweat while on the doxy? Is it just that he's not supposed to work that hard, or is it something about the actual sweating? Just curious!

[Kiwayu]

Phaxxton- My vet just said "he can work after 1-2 weeks of doxy, but he can NOT sweat." She stressed the sweating but I was sooo overwhelmed with all the info and questions I had to ask, that I didn't even ask why. Maybe Ghazzu coudl chime in... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Luie's Person]

Well, pretty depressing to be contributing to the Lyme discussion.. Luie's Lyme diagnosis came last Fri and started him TU on 90/100mg doxy (split in 2 doses per day). vet dispensing the Doxy noted Luie's main vet (also a chiro/acupuncture and homeopath) must prefer the most aggressive dosing -- The recommended range of Doxy is 2.0-2.8 per body weight unit. Primary vet says we'll leave him on Doxy for 3 weeks, wait 2 weeks and then retest. She also has him on 8 30c Ledum Palustre (Homeopathic Lyme remedy) and 8 30c Rhus Toxicodendron (relieves muscle joint pain) Also Vit E/Selenium, Probiotics, 20 gr/day of MSM and his HA supplement, Lubrisyn. Vet says no under-saddle work for at least 2 weeks 'to allow his body to focus on healing'. Heard from BM today that Luie's started playing w/ his pasturemate, so he has to be feeling a little better.

Lyme was the last thing on my mind 3 weeks ago! Luie's training had been great, and he was looking and moving beautifully. Finished a lesson (which we did interrupt to check him for "flies" and re-spray him)....an hour later I was making an emergency vet call:colic. Attending vet noted gas, severe abdominal and back/haunches soreness, but no impaction etc. He got pain meds and tranqs and improved somewhat. Gave him 2 weeks off for back to resolve: had saddle rechecked in interim; massage; primary vet came out 3 days after colic episode as back and stomach little improved -- sacrum waaay out of joint, got adjusted, started herbal pain meds. As he's 16 and prone to get 'gimpy fast' when off training, each day weighs heavily http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif....@ 2 weeks I had blood drawn for regular panel, and requested review for EPSM, ulcers and the 2 Lyme tests. Blood came back perfect, perfect so hopefully the Lyme has been caught early enough that we can just get rid of it once and for all. That said everything I've been reading about this disease is nasty and secretive.

WE'RE BACK HOURS LATER: vet had to make an emerg. call at the barn tonight: Luie was covered w/sweat, pawing, biting flanks, not realy colicky, super uncomfortable, still bothered by invisible 'flies'... his back was a better,tho. After an exam (all pulses and sounds ok), added muscle relaxers for 7 days. Vet think he's bothered enough to spasm thus continued abdom and back issues. He did seem much better after the IV loading dose of muscle relaxer. Are others having this much difficulty w/ initial treatment????? This back-up vet says his practice is treating Lyme w/ IV tetracy catheter...like Cornell. I'm discouraged that there are so many approaches to treatment -- time is precious to all. And I can't stand that he's uncomfortable. Good luck to us all.

[Boston Chicken]

Luie's Person - I have no words of wisdom but I wanted you to know that we all feel your pain. It does seem like an extreme reaction based on the horses that I have seen. I'm hoping that we all get our horses back. Lyme is really a terrible disease.

[Luie's Person]

Thanks, Boston Chick! He's much better today...those 'invisible flies' are gone! (BTW, grew up in Newton and wish I were still there!)

Also, whoever posted the link to the Hourse Journal re: Lyme articles --Thank you!! The info I downloaded was well worth the few $.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kiwayu:
Phaxxton- My vet just said "he can work after 1-2 weeks of doxy, but he can NOT sweat." She stressed the sweating but I was sooo overwhelmed with all the info and questions I had to ask, that I didn't even ask why. Maybe Ghazzu coudl chime in... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It rings a *faint* bell, but I just checked the current information in Plumb's, and it didn't say anything about exercise restriction/temperature regulation, etc.
A search on VIN came up blank.

(I think the faint bell might be relative to erythromycin and temperature regulation in foals.)

Ask the DVM in question--I'd be interested.

[Kiwayu]

Ghazzu- I'll ask my vet why my horse can't sweat while on doxy. I'm kinda interested too considering everyone else here seems to be riding their horse towards the end of treatment. I have another question for you...Do I make my vet come back out to "re-evaluate" Kiwayu towards the end of treatment to see if we need more meds, or is that something that my vet goes based on what kind of improvement I see???

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kiwayu:
Ghazzu- I'll ask my vet why my horse can't sweat while on doxy. I'm kinda interested too considering everyone else here seems to be riding their horse towards the end of treatment. I have another question for you...Do I make my vet come back out to "re-evaluate" Kiwayu towards the end of treatment to see if we need more meds, or is that something that my vet goes based on what kind of improvement I see??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Judgement call. Based on how well you and your vet communicate, I think.
Certainly if you feel more comfortable with a visit, call him.

[chism]

My vet left it open. He said that if she seemed to be better after the initial 30 day treatment....great, if not to continue the Doxy for another 30 days. She only had a low titre to begin with. So far, so good.

[Luie's Person]

HELP Am I wrong???? the only way to know for certain the the treatment worked is to retake titre after some period off the meds and compare levels? Lower level= treatment successful?

And what about "chronic Lyme"? Does titre not change, or even elevate???? or just 'appear to improve' and then elevateagain after a few weeks/months????

[Ghazzu]

My understanding is that Lyme titers can remain elevated for years.

[Luie's Person]

Hmmmm....so once a horse has Lyme, you treat until symptoms disappear? and then if any symptoms reappear, just start treating again???

[Kiwayu]

My vet told me that if we're to pull blood right after we finish treatment, Kiwayu will still test positive. She told me we have to wait 3-4 months after treatment to retest. This Lyme stuff is so complicated since there is no "real" answer.

[Tux61096]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luie's Person:
. . .
And what about "chronic Lyme"? Does titre not change, or even elevate???? or just 'appear to improve' and then elevateagain after a few weeks/months???? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The chronic case that I take care of is titred regularly, and it does drop after treatment and rise with the onset of symptoms.

[Janet]

Music was first treated in 1996.

Since then, her titer has remained "borderline", both during her good times (asymptomatic) and bad times (NQR in various ways). So now we just treat based on symptoms (about once every couple of years).

[Luie's Person]

Information is a *good thing*! Thank you, BBs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!

YIKES chronic lyme: http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif did your horse initially respond well to first-time treatment, or did you have to try a different antibiotic or extend the treatment period etc? Does reoccurance happen on any vague 'schedule' or seem to be triggered by any event? How often do you titre? I hate the idea of 'just treating' when symptoms arise -- but maybe symptoms are the same @ each recurrance?
Neurologic Symptoms: I'm wondering how varied these are..has anyone's horse ever exhibited super-heightened skin sensitivity/'itching' all over?

[Posting Trot]

Yes, my horse developed a very heightened sensitivity to touch, as well as becoming backsore and having a very slight, on-again, off-again hind end lameness.

[Luie's Person]

Thanks,Posting Trot. I guess I feel lucky that Luie's not charting new territory with his sensitivity thing http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Was there anything you found that made your horse feel better in that regard -- or was it just a matter of waiting for the antibiotic to do its job?

[Kiwayu]

Kiwayu is exhibiting a super-heightened skin sensitivity. I'm saying a huge prayer that it goes away with the meds. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif So far as of day 11 on the doxy, it has NOT gone away, nor has the stiffness or lameness. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Kiwayu had all the symptoms of Posting Trot's horse...back sore, very sensitive, and hind end lameness. This disease is horrible!!!

[kcooper]

Cleo had general stiffness, lack of desire for work and for about 3 weeks I "knew" there was something wrong. I took her for a lameness eval because I thought it was something I just couldn't see or maybe something wrong in her back. About 2 weeks after that, I had my other vet (chiro acupuncture vet) look at her. By that day, she was puffy in all four legs and was lame in both hind legs with flexions. She thought it was Lyme and drew blood for a test. She also recommended I make an appt at the big clinic for hock x-rays if it came back negative. The test came back negative and I took her to the clinic. By that day, she really swollen in all four legs and was lame all four with flexions. She also felt so lousy she almost looked sedated. They did a full neurological exam b/c that vet was concerned that she had some neuro symptoms. However, she passed that fine. Took another Lyme titre and several other blood tests and started her on doxy just in case. That titre came back positive, but a low positive. They think she got so sick b/c she was not mounting an immune response (she's a gray). After about 4 days on the doxy her attitude was brighter and almost normal and her legs were no longer swollen. Of course, we are on another 30 day round of doxy b/c her symptoms came back after three days offf the doxy and they have not dissapated like they did no the first round. This is SO frustrating. Reading this thread makes me even more worried, and yet also is helpful because I know I am not going crazy. Before this diagnosis, I was feeling like I had horsey Munchousens (sp?) because no one else could see that there was something wrong with her, but I knew there was.

[Luie's Person]

well, I'm duly concerned for us all--two and four legged!

Kiwayu: the muscle relaxers (he's on day 3) really helped Luie's skin hyper-sensitivity..not perfect, but he's a lot more comfortable. My vet is also doing a concurrent homeopathic regime w/ him as well. I've found that he really likes a cold bath, and tonight he became absolutely relaxed, NO skin rippling,biting flanks etc, after a lavender & rosemary oil bath. Whatever works, I'll do! (Wish someone would give me these baths http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

kcooper: my vet told me that if the inital doxy doesn't work, then it's time for another antibiotic. Some horse don't repsond to doxy, altho' the % is small. Good for you, listening to your horse.....Your' re not going crazy, or if you are - then reserve a really large room for all your empathizers!!! "I feeeel your pain!"

Luie's vet is coming back out on TH and I'm anxious. She told me tonight that a few horses actually are purged of the parasite BUT continue w/ the symptoms. What a nightmare http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif not at all fair.

[Robyn]

Luie's Person, I read in HJ over the weekend that treating lyme sometimes causes an autoimmune reaction like arthritis. Or something like that...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif My boy is on Doxy now for lyme, started last Friday after three days of IV oxytet. His only lyme symptoms were "blahness" and just NQR. He was actually better by the time the lyme tests came back so I was VERY surprised by the diagnosis. I had started Red Cell and MSM at the same time that the blood was drawn for the lyme test, so I think maybe the MSM was helping him feel better. He is rather "dull," but does trot or canter up to the barn and seems to be eating well. He also eats the doxy right on top of his grain which is much easier than having to crush/paste him with it.

Kcooper, he's also a gray - what does that have to do with immune response?? The vets are questioning his immune response since he also had PHF TWICE last fall. Up until that time he had never been sick in the six years that I've owned him. (Also, although it's controversial, I've vaccinated him for lymes twice, but not this year. I will definitely be vaccinating next year, however).

Here's hoping that everbodies horse comes back from this disease without lasting effects.

Robin

[Luie's Person]

A vaccine for Lyme??? A NEW one? I'd be happy if there were!! I think there was a vac that was withdrawn from the market a few years ago....

[Kiwayu]

The only vaccine that is *sometimes* used in horses is the one designed for dogs.

I'm so disgusted with Lyme disease at the moment. I troted Kiwayu today for about 5 minutes on the lunge line and now his front end is lame. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Should he be getting "worse" (as in the lameness "spreading"?) while on the doxy. Today is day 13 on the doxy. I was told that by 2-3 weeks his symptoms should be disappearing and tomorrow is 2 weeks. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I'm so ready to scream. There should be a support group for Lyme's victims.

[Robyn]

It is the dog vaccine, but it's used frequently in this part of WI for horses. I've used it several times for both my old horse and now Reggie and have never had a reaction to it. IF there is any chance that it helps, I'm taking that chance next year.

Robin

[Boston Chicken]

Kiwayu - my guy is still sore too. He had seemed like he was getting better but a day off and he is sore again. I am going to have my vet give him another once over as I am concerned about why his shoulder seems so stiff. It's also been a few weeks on the meds for my guy...

[vxf111]

My horse got much, much, MUCH worse for the first week on doxy. He went from being "off" to be flat out lame. I was scared... then there was suddently a huge improvement to the point where he seemed 99% better and then he improved the reast of the way over the coruse of treatment. I am jingling for everyone with lyme because it STINKS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Kiwayu]

Well I'm glad to hear they can get worse the first week, but I've been giving the doxy for a solid 2 weeks already and starting to go onto week 3. I so want to call the vet back out, or to at least talk to her, but she told me 2-3 weeks for improvement. If I call now it's going to look like I'm paranoid (which I am) and I'm not giving anything a chance. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Robyn]

Oh Kristin we are ALL paranoid! My guy doesn't show many symptoms which I think is a good thing, but then how can I "really" tell when he's better?? Also, is anyone having a retest after treatment to be sure the disease is cleared? And is this even feasable so soon?? And why are some horses on doxy for such long periods of time as opposed to just the three week treatment that Reggie is getting? He did get three days of oxytet IV first, but I want to make sure he gets whatever he needs to recover.

Anyway, I'd say call the vet if you are concerned. YOU are the client, after all, and this is not a cheap treatment so a phone call shouldn't make your vet go over the edge.

Robin

[Posting Trot]

The problem with doing a retest is that what the test actually tests for is the presence of antibodies. It's not testing for the bacteria themselves.

So, especially just after treatment, it's quite likely that the horse's immune response will be pretty high, even if the bacteria themselves are gone.

But, the lyme bacteria are notoriously hardy. They can become dormant and hang out in the joints where there is relatively little blood circulation. That's why there are relapses that sometimes occur a year or more after the horse was "cured."

[kcooper]

Robyn - I have been told by two different vets that grey horses often have weaker immune systems. One of the vets said that it is believed to be a link between the gene that allows for the grey coloring and something in the immune system. One recommended that I space out my spring shots over a period of several weeks, instead of just two batches. I have never researched this (don't need any more bad news) but have heard this told several times since the first comments by those vets.
Cleo got more blood drawn yesterday. My vet said that it was worthwhile doing another Lyme titre even tho she is still on the doxy to see if the level has moved at all since before she went on it. If it is really high, we are going to try the IV treatment and see if she responds to that.

[Robyn]

Great, Kcooper. I have THREE grays...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif But up until now (well, last fall actually) I had never had a health problem with any of them and my old one is 28. He did however get lyme about ten years ago but seemed to recover fully. He seemed to age afterward though, and his gaits seemed flatter somehow. He was 18 or 19 at the time, so maybe it was just time for him to age http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Robin

[Luie's Person]

Well, Luie's vet came out for a recheck today and acupuncture-- day 10 on doxy. (Recap: He's been on 45 doxy 2x/day ( which is near the max dosage for his weight), 30 robaxyn (muscle relaxer) 2x/day and daily homeopathic doses: 8 30c Ledum Palustre (traditionally used for Lyme and like infections) and 8 30c Rhus Toxicodendron (for muscle & joint pain). He went on the robaxyn 4 days into the doxy, when everything seemed to get reallllly bad for him w/ skin sensitivity and general muscle spasms.) Thankfully, Luie's been on an upward trend since starting the muscle relaxer. Vet was pleased w/ progress...it's her experience that if the doxy doesn't work in the 3 weeks, then it's not going to. We will be retesting 2 weeks AFTER the end of 3 weeks on the doxy; vet says if the titre level stays the same, we'll need to treat w/ another antibiotic, but if level falls at all, then doxy has 'worked'. She also puts more faith in the ledum then the doxy, but always treats "both ways" when time is of the essence.
I can start to consider walking him under saddle provided I can palpate his back w/o too much obvious sensitivity. She said to lunge him first and so long as he looks 'loose' I can get on him and 'check it out'. She says he'll be a little uncomfortable for awhile longer, but nothing should be pronounced. His skin and 'upper' muscles are still wiggy, so the thought of getting on him (he's enormous http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif) is sobering some times. But maybe he'll have missed the work http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif and be thrilled to see the arena again! Hmmm. I just keep hoping that he'll continue to make progress...

Kiwayu: I think THIS THREAD is our support group!

Robyn and KCooper: There's a grey in the barn that used to have all *kinds* of problems. His owner swears by "APF", a general immune boosting supplement.

Good luck to us all. Keep me posted. I've learned a lot from all of you. I'm grateful!

[Janet]

There is another thread about greys and whether or not they are mor suceptiple to health problems in general (aside for melanomas). No real consensus.

In my herd, the one wilth a weak immune system is the (almost plain) bay, not the grey.

[Luie's Person]

I forgot:

Kiwayu, Boston Chicken: I think it was in the Horse Journal Articles...one of the frustrating thigs about Lyme is that the symptoms will wax and wane. Also that pain/stiffness will jump from one major muscle group/joint to another. It is positively hateful - that's all there is to it.

[Robyn]

I spent the weekend searching through my old HJs and found the articles to be quite depressing. Then I remembered that my old guy also had it, and recovered. Reggie's symptoms are very slight, but I think he's the kind of horse who just endures and sucks it up when it comes to pain/discomfort. I also have a sinking feeling that my horse may have had this for a long time, as he seems to be off in the fall. Could his own immune system beat this back, only to have it reoccur about 12 months later? The vets are wondering if an underlying lyme infection suppressed his immune system enough to cause him to succomb to PHF twice within four weeks last year...the test for PHF showed a new infection the second time, not a relapse, and he was pastured with my old horse at the time. I had him tested for lyme in 2001 and the test was negative with a very low elisa score, but I wonder if he was infected some time after that initial test. He was treated with IV oxytet for the PHF twice in four weeks last fall, but it was just a series of four injections each time - not probably enough or long enough to touch the lyme...if in fact he had it.

Luie's Person, who makes the APF??

Robin

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I also have a sinking feeling that my horse may have had this for a long time, as he seems to be off in the fall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can you give me more details about this?

Starting with the year she was diagnosed and treated for Lyme (spring 1996), Music developed a pattern of suddenly being unable/unwilling to canter each October. It would get worse through about January, then gradually improve, until by late April- mid May she was "cured". It didn't respond to doxy.

We tried all sorts of things, but every year (for 4 years) it came back every October.

Finally, in 2000, observing that the only thing that was consistent was the time of year, we put her under lights to extend the perceived day length. The vet said "day length shouldn't have a musculoskeletal effect, but it can't hurt, it isn't expensive/difficult, and there clearly is a correlation of her symptoms with day length."

Putting her under lights completely fixed it. I was absolutely thrilled when I took her in a second level test in December, and scored over 60% .

We still don't know WHY.

We know the immune system is affected by day length.

We know the reproductive cycle is affected by day length.

But we don't know which of these (or something els entirely) is involved.

[Kiwayu]

This BB does seem to be my support group. I had my trainer come out today to look at Kiwayu. She last saw him when the vet did 2.5 weeks ago. Trainer claims his hind end looks a little better (less stiff), but something has definitely come up with his right front. He's lame up there right now. She was also pressing on his points and he was sensitive ALL OVER! She didn't dare even touch his hind end since when the vet came 2 weeks ago, Kiwayu just missed kicking the vet in the head. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

My plan of attack is to wait until I get to week 4, then have my trainer back out to re-evaluate with me, and then talk to the vet and tell her where we're at. I'll let the vet decide whether or not she should come back out to look at him, or just put him on more meds.

I really can't take this anymore, especially since the weather is beautiful now and all I do is hang with Kiwayu and see how miserable he is sitting in his paddock. (He is sparkling clean with all the grooming he gets! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) He LOVES to keep busy... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Kiwayu]

Ok, now I'm REALLY going to scream!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I was giving Kiwayu his 50 pills of doxy tonight on top of his grain mixed with a little bit of applesauce and...HE CHOKED!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif About 10 minutes after the initial choke he was capable of clearing it himself. Thank god... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But it was scary watching him try to "throw up" and seeing flem running down his nose/mouth. I noramlly would have had the vet come down and check him out anyway, but I seriously can't afford another vet bill on top of the doxy, especially an emergency vet bill at 9:00pm. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Posting Trot]

Well, I have to tell you that halfway through my mare's course of doxy, she choked on her hay. Then a week later she choked again. After the second choke, I had her teeth re-floated (they'd been done 6 months before) and gave her (per vet's orders) banamine for 8 days after. I also wet down her grain and wet her hay for several months afterwards.

She didn't choke after that. I don't know whether it was just random that the choke happened then, or if it was related to the lyme disease or to the treatment.

Good luck.

[Luie's Person]

OMG Kiwayu! I don't know the causes of choke..so I'm clueless here. But at least you can talk to the vet tomorrow? No billing for that! FYI I've been giving Luie probiotics mixed w/ with the doxy....
Thinking of you and Kiwayu!

[Kiwayu]

Luie- My vet said that the probiotics canNOT be mixed with the doxy, because they will counter act the doxy. Kiwayu has to get his probiotics, along with the rest of his supplements, at lunch. Doxy is given at breakfast and dinner.

[Robyn]

Janet, I don't know what to tell you but that I have a feeling that this may explain his behavior in past falls. Or maybe not. I don't know if horses can actually fight off lyme disease on their own, or if it can be dormant except for certain times of the year. I do know that Reggie was better by the time the dignosis was made this year, before meds were even started, and he has had a case of the blahs for about the past three years every fall that I couldn't put my finger on. No lameness, swellings, fever, not off feed, not sore, just NQR and dull. The first year that I noticed this I had the vet coming for blood work to see what was up and in the meantime my old horse severely bowed a tendon so all the attention went to him for several weeks (wrapping, hosing, then fungal infection due to wrapping with all that winter hair - it was a long road). By then, winter was well on it's way and Reggie seemed OK. Last year he got PHF early in October, and then again about three weeks later. Now that he has displayed the same symptom - blah, no gas in the tank, dull attitude, no spark etc., etc., I'm just wondering if it wasn't lyme all the time. From what I've read in HJ, it can reoccur on cyclical basis every 6 or 12 months. However, I don't know if his own systom could have fought it off for most of the year, until the fall. There was a similar case history in HJ, but that horse was much more severely impacted by the lyme before they finally realized what it was. At any rate, the vet made a passing comment that since they didn't test for lyme last year - just Potomac, which was positive - maybe an underlying lyme infection is what caused his susceptibility to the Potomac, which my other horse never got even though they were pastured together. OR, is this a new lyme infection and he has a compromised immune system that explains why he got PHF and now lyme disease in less than a 12 month period??? A dilemma! This year when he again seemed blah, I had the vet run a CBC, mineral analysis test for E and/or selenium deficiency, a thyroid test, and a lyme test which I was sure would be negative. The week before the blood work, I had the vet out for "teeth and sheath" on my three horses, so I've probably got a vet bill that will rival the national debt http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif BUT, if the treatment cures him and he recovers fully it will be so worth it!!!

Robin

[chai]

Boston Chicken, I think Lyme is a real epidemic in MA. I've had it, my daughter has had it, one of my horses just finished treatment for it and now I have another on Doxy for Lyme and one on Doxy for Ehrlycchiosis (the third horse on my farm to come down with it!). I had our pony re-tested after treating her with Doxy for a month and she still has a low titre which the vet said may stay with her for life. I hope your horse will bounce back.

[Boston Chicken]

Yes it is, Chai. Many folks will say that there are a lot worse diseases than Lyme and that's true, but this thing is insidious. My vet was saying that there's still so much left to know about it. We know that it affects people neurologically...and maybe horses too.

I have a feeling that my horse has had his Lyme for a while now (this is the second time we've treated the same unresolved infection) and now that I think about it, I believe that he's had flare-ups every 6 months or so. I have a sinking feeling that he's going to be one of those horses with chronic Lyme...

I too had Lyme disease last year and it was terrible.

Thank you all for your support! While it's awful to see so many of you with afflicted horses, it's great that we can all share experiences and treatments.

[Kiwayu]

Boston Chicken-

Well said..."Thank you all for your support! While it's awful to see so many of you with afflicted horses, it's great that we can all share experiences and treatments." I'm so glad that I can count on this BB, otherwise I'd think I'd go nuts.

[Robyn]

OK, so how many of you can ride during treatment for lyme? My horse seems fine - canters up to the barn when it's feeding time, then trots out and tosses his head if I'm not quick enough. He feels GOOD, and has been on medication now for almost two weeks...and I'm thinking of taking him for a short, slow ride on Sunday... Opinions?? I've had two vets treating him and the first one said no riding during treatment, the second said it would be fine if he felt up to it, and then backed off because of the other vets previous instructions. This is killing me, since I'm in WI and we won't have decent weather again until next April http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Robin

[Janet]

I have always ridden them while they were being treated for Lyme, adjudting acording to how they felt/looked.

[kcooper]

I have been riding lightly once Cleo's major symptoms diminished and she had a more "bright" affect. I have only done flat work and lots of trail riding. No jumping b/c I am paranoid about the inflammation in her joints. My vet said it was fine to ride lightly. I think she is happier with some work, so unless she is telling me she is uncomfortable, I will keep riding.
Regarding that choking -- I have not seen that, but I have noticed that my horse "yawns" after she finishes her doxy. I know that horse "yawns" are not like people yawns, but find it interesting that she does that. It is not normal for her to do that after eating her grain. I also feed her doxy with her regular supplements, including oil, so maybe that has helped preventing choking.

[Kiwayu]

In regards to riding...My vet said I could ride within 1-2 weeks of treatment, BUT he canNOT sweat. Since his whole body was sore, I decided to throw him on the lunge line first just to see how he is to determine if I could hop on. So far I haven't been able to sit on him yet. He's SO LAME!!! Not to mention he's sore in his back. His attitude has gotten brighter and is mentally ready to ride, but his body isn't ready at all!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Luie's Person]

Kiwayu: thank you for sharing your vet's opinion re: no probiotics w/ doxy. I'm calling my vet ASAP --she initially thought it was a good idea. Regarding ongoing back soreness -- Luie began to shake the back soreness after the muscle relaxer was prescribed. Vet thought the sore back, skin sensitivity and abdominal tightness were all kind of feeding off each other -- thus continuing spasms/he had no chance to relax the muscles.

Was it Robyn who asked about APF? I've seen it in either the Valley Vet or KV vet catalogue. I'll get more info when I'm at the barn tomorrow. Couldn't get out there today - which makes me very nervous.

I think the idea of underlying immune health is key to this and o' diseases like PHF and EPM (apart from the gene-roulette). Every horse's titre will show exposure to Lyme from what my vet said, so there has to be a reason for the balance to tip into disease. There were a few horses in the barn who got PHF this summer, including one of Luie's pasture-mates; Fighting that would have to syphon a tremendous amount of stamina from a being. PLUS it's been so bloody hot. AND the drought has messed up the routine cycle of nutrition in the grass, not to mention all the miserable dust and parched everything. THEN there's the whole environmental/air pollution/water quality etc concern, which is very real here in NoVA; most summer days have "unhealthy" air quality. I know I've tried to be 'proactive' health-wise for all the animals I care for (including husband http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) but I think it's time to ramp up the effort. Maybe we can eventually morph this thread into a 'Healthy after Lyme Symposium'?

Janet: I thought your horse's response to the light therapy was fascinating.

Be well all. Luie and I value you!

[Boston Chicken]

I think I mentioned that I am riding my horse through his treatment. He has had bad days where his shoulder seems stiff and on those days, we just walk. On good days, we do mostly flatwork and/or poles, with a couple of teeny, tiny crossrails thrown in to help me with my confidence. Our last show - before we knew he had Lyme - took a lot out of me confidence-wise, and as long as he feels OK, we ride.

Today, I put him on the longe line as I got whacked in the head by his hoof when he was swatting a fly, and didn't feel up to riding. He looked stiff and iffy to start but finished nice and free. I don't love to longe him so it was only for 15 minutes of light stuff though.

[Kiwayu]

My friend had my vet at his barn today so I made him ask the vet a bunch of questions. My vet said it's normal that Kiwayu is still hurting at this point in the treatment and that I need to be patient. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif We were half way through the doxy as of yesterday...15 days down, 15 to go (assuming we don't need anymore, but knowing my luck we need a bunch more! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif).

[Luie's Person]

Hi Kiwayu! RE: giving probios and doxy at the same time. My vet says that equine probios are not derived from milk and therefore are ok. A milk-based product of any kind interferes w/ doxy in all species!

Also, my vet's told me a # of times that if the 1st course of Doxy doesn't work, a different antibiotic is needed. Maybe there are different strains of Lyme from region to region, and this is the protocol in NoVA...I know that there IS alot of differing opinion about treatment. Vet that came for Luie's 2nd emergency call said his practice ONLY does catheter IV Oxy,following Cornell's lead. I'm just glad Luie seems to be improving -- whatever works!

[Kiwayu]

Luie- On my other thread about Lyme's, a pharmacist chimed in and said that Doxy should NOT be given with any supplement containing calcium, aluminum, iron, and something else. If you look at a lot of treats/supplements many of them contain at least one of those ingredients. I'd rather not take the chance with doxy being so expensive.

[frugalannie]

Just to give us all hope, and a little perspective...

My vet, the Lyme Guru, believes (and it's very logical) that Lyme disease has been around for a very long time (if not forever). Somehow, horses survived it even in the days when they were the pricipal means of transportation and power. Many of our horses have been bitten by Lyme-positive ticks, and they don't get sick. Some have transient symptoms, others get very ill and some wax and wane. Therefore, the treatment and prognosis have to be individualized.

I do as Janet does: let my horse's condition dictate the amount of work we'll undertake.

When I see a constellation of symptoms, I consult with my vet, and we may or may not initiate another round of Doxy. Mostly, I don't want to miss something else by brushing it off as Lyme.

One mare was unresponsive to treatment, but an immune booster seems to have done the trick, and she has now been healthy for nearly a year, so there can be success with treated horses.

One last question, has anyone seen a Morgan with Lyme? I'm just wondering since they're originally a New England breed, and they may have an inherited immunity. The only Morgans I know may test weakly positive, but seem to have no symptoms.

[Robyn]

frugalannie, that's kind of what I'm thinking is going on with my gelding. It would explain bouts of NQR over the past two or three years that seemed to resolve themselves, and most often appeared in the autumn. Anyway, he seems to be feeling well now, so I'm riding him this afternoon http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, lightly of course.

Also, what immune booster was your mare put on? I've recently read that flax is a natural immune booster, but so many of the nutriceuticals make claims that can't be substantiated.

Also, I'm armed and ready to do battle with my vet over the inflated price he charged me for the doxy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I got four days worth from the people pharmacy for $18.50 (capsule form) which came out to about $4.62 a day...vet got me the same mil. but in tablet form and charged me $6.86 a day. Gouging!!! I don't mind paying for diagnosis, opinion, exams, farm call, etc., but why take me for almost $50 more on meds??? Plus, when they came out three days in a row for the IV Oxytet injections, they took his temp (there never was one) and listened to his heart rate and charged me $18.50 for a "mini" exam each time, which came to another $55 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif When I call to discuss the cost of meds, should I also mention the "mini" exams? Opinions, please? I don't want to be unreasonable, but my bill is HUGE.

Robin

[Kiwayu]

Robyn- I'm so happy to hear your boy is doing well. Kiwayu, on the other hand, has been acting a bit strange. EXTREMELY stiff when he gets up from lying down in the morning, and last night when I went to throw his rain sheet on him, he went to kick me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif He's never like that. He's been much more grouchy. I only have 11 days (out of 30) left of doxy to give, so I'll call the vet around day 27 or so for an update. I'm hoping to throw Kiwayu on the lunge line for 5 minutes to see if he's still lame up front, but it's been raining all weekend and it's not supposed to stop until thursday. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[frugalannie]

We used Platinum Plus immune booster, and all of my horses get ground flax every day anyway. The Platinum Plus was VERY expensive, but one container did the trick. (Although, ala Willem, my mare was convinced it was poison when we first tried to give it to her. She got over it in a couple of days!)

As to your vet bill, given that you are dealing with a long-term chronic disease management issue, it might be worth discussing minimizing costs with your vet. However, I'm willing to bet that they're only doing a reasonable markup for the Doxy (and it is reasonable to mark it up a little: after all, the vet has to shell out the money up front, store the stuff, etc.). The issue is that most likely they get all their meds from a distributor and they go with his price. My vet has her office manager aggressively search for the lowest price possible, but it takes considerable time and effort, and they they are getting them from different sources each month. There should be an easier way!

[Posting Trot]

You might try Uckele's Bio-Quench as an immune booster. It was well-recommended by Horse Journal for post-lyme horses.

[Luie's Person]

OK I'm getting ready to bang my head against the wall!! Elisa came back "205"(midrange) and Western BLot was "3 out of 4". He HAS responded to Doxy and Robaxyn treatment, but 1-2 month out still not back to 'perfect. Walked him under saddle for the first time today, and he was thrilled about it. His canter to R on longe was sooooo ugly. I'm hoping that this really is Lyme and that it GO AWAY!! Anyone?????

[Kiwayu]

I'll join you Luie because as of Day 20 on doxy (yesterday) Kiwayu is still SOOO stiff/lame. My vet said that if he's not showing signs of improvement already he's definitely going to need the maximum treatment. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I've been so bummed lately...

[Robyn]

Luie's person, did you do a recheck to see what the titers were post treatment? My understanding is that it will take a while for the titer to drop...but there is SO MUCH that is contradictory about lyme - both the disease and the treatment. I've been considering a recheck a few weeks after Reggie is off meds, which should be by the end of next week. I've also read that some horses mount an autoimmune response similar to arthritis even when they are supposedly "cured" of the lyme, and those horses should not be on an immune booster which seems to stimulate that response. I am SO confused http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Kristen, I'm really sorry your guy isn't responding more quickly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif My old horse had lyme about 10 years ago, was treated with pen. (not done much anymore) and seemed to recover fairly quickly, however he did seem to all of the sudden feel/act his age (about 18 at the time) which he hadn't previously. He also relapsed? almost exactly a year later. That time presented with swelling in all four lower limbs. Again, he responded quickly to treatment.

Posting Trot, do you know which issue of HJ recommends the Bioquench for post lyme horses? I recently read a March 2000 issue which gave highest ratings to something called Actimune, but it's a five year old issue...I don't know if it's even available anymore.

I did ride Reggie for about an hour last Monday. He was about 80%. Not lame at all, but not really perky either. However, it was fairly warm and he does have a winter coat, so I'm not sure how much that factored in. In the pasture he seems fine, but undersaddle, still NQR. Certainly not as impacted as others on this thread - for which I'm grateful - but just vaguely off which makes it hard to know what to do. As I said, he still has about a week left of doxy so I guess I'll wait till a week or two after that to see how he feels. Sure wish he could talk!

On another note, I have a three year old in training who is doing very well. Was actually rather lazy this past week (second week at the trainers) which made me think...............lyme?? I'm getting really paranoid. But I think/hope he's just figuring out what the trainer wants and has settled in.

Good luck to all of us ~
Robin

[Boston Chicken]

As an update on my guy, he has improved I think quite a bit. His personality has returned and he is less sore for the most part. However, it's been raining for a week and since he can't go outside, I notice a lot of stocking-up behind again. It could just be lack of turnout, but I hate seeing it. He's wrapped most evenings these days http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Kiwayu]

Boston Chicken- I'm having the same problem with all the rain (hasn't stopped since last saturday). Kiwayu has 24/7 turnout with a stall attached, but he hasn't really left the stall. Everytime he moves I hear all his joints "click", and he is walking like the tin man from the Wizard of Oz without the oil. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I don't know if it's the lyme or the fact he really hasn't moved in a week. He is 19 too... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Boston Chicken]

My guy is 12 so he's not too terribly stiff, but another week of this and I am not sure I will ever see his ankles again

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luie's Person:
OK I'm getting ready to bang my head against the wall!! Elisa came back "205"(midrange) and Western BLot was "3 out of 4". He HAS responded to Doxy and Robaxyn treatment, but 1-2 month out still not back to 'perfect. Walked him under saddle for the first time today, and he was thrilled about it. His canter to R on longe was sooooo ugly. I'm hoping that this really is Lyme and that it GO AWAY!! Anyone????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Luie's Person,

Since you are "local" PLEASE have your vet call Dr. Kiefer (in Warrenton/Casanova), and ask him about the light treatment we used for Night Music. Your case sounds SO similar- October, biggest symptom being a yucky canter, marginal Lyme test, but not responding further to treatment. (BTW, with Music, Robaxin made it WORSE.)

[Luie's Person]

Janet: THANK YOU. Have emailed Luie's vet with your info. I'll be in touch as soon as there's news...

Robyn: he's a week away from finising all his meds -- and I don't know WHAT the vet will recommend at this point re: retest. YOUR NEWS ABOUT THE ARTHRITIS RESPONSE IS WAAAAAY TOO SCARY. How in the #%$&* does one figure out what to do? I am totally frustrated that there are so many different treatment protocols...and that it seems to be like musical chairs to figure out WHAT protocol will help one's beloved beastie. BTW has anyone submitted Lyme related bills to an insurer? Do they require unequivocal test results?


RE: 'stall-bound creakies' w/ all this rain...I've hired a great kid at the barn to hand walk Luie around the indoor whenever they're in for the day. I give her $5 for a 30 minute 'forced march' -- and if I can't get out that day, she'll do a double session. I *think* it's helped, plus she's caring about him,has cold hosed,hayed etc!! Good all round...Looking forward to health, happiness and a glorious canter for us all!

[Kiwayu]

How's everyone's horses doing today???

I thought Kiwayu was doing better on Thursday, although, still slightly off. But, unfortunately, the farrier came today and Kiwayu looked HORRIBLE! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Kiwayu almost fell on the farrier a few times while he was trying to work on his hind feet. Farrier also thinks he's a lot stiffer in his hind end and before he left, I made him watch Kiwayu trot. Kiwayu is head-bobbing lame today up front and walking/troting like an OLD man. He barely wants to move that's how stiff he is. I'm sooo bummed out right now. Today is day 23 on the doxy and the vet said since he isn't improving we're probably going to need more meds. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I just don't know what else to do for him, and it makes me feel miserable not doing anything else.

[Phaxxton]

I just wanted to offer jingles for all of you going through this terrible ordeal!

Good luck to you and your horses - I hope you see major improvements soon! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Boston Chicken]

Kiwayu - did they pull blood for EPM on your guy? This sounds very extreme.

[Kiwayu]

Boston Chicken- This isn't EPM. I've seen EPM before and Kiwayu isn't it. Kiwayu has good days, and bad days. It's not a steady decline. I definitely feel he's got Lyme's but Kiwayu's immune system is shot! He gets all the reocurring diseases...Herpes, Lymes and he's got BAD allergies. The really weird thing is that for the past 5 days Kiwayu has been covered in hives all along his back, barrel, and hind end. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

My vet told my friend on Thursday that her and her husband thought 30 days wasn't going to be enough for him. My vet knows what a pain in the a$$ Kiwwayu is to treat with everything and that nothing goes according to the textbook with him. Boy, does she make me feel sooo much better.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Kiwayu]

I forgot to add...are there any good websites to do some more reading on Lyme's in horses? I tried doing a google search but there isn't anything good.

[Luie's Person]

Kristen: I think Kiwayu and Luie are doing a vulcan mind meld on symptoms. Today Luie was head bobbing lame @ trot, after being good yesterday & previously. He's also had a weird allergic reaction to midges/gnats that has now settled in his 'arm pits' (how's that for non-vetspeak!) and he's lost his hair, it's bumpy oozy and raw. I think this is why he was lame today-- hurts too much to move from shoulder. The hyper skin sensitivity thing is very bizarre how it just morphs along. Anyone have any ideas how to dry up weepy armpits????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BTW, I haven't found any good info on Lyme -- except for one or two of the Hourse Journal articles. My vet emailed last night and commiserated that the Lyme tests are relatively lousy and the treatments are all over the place. Did Kiwayu's western blot come back poitive? Vet thinks we tested Luie 'too early' in disease progression to get the diagnosis.

[Kiwayu]

Luie- Wow. That's kinda weird how Kiwayu and Luie's symptoms are the same. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Kiwayu's hives have now turned into a million scabs all along his back and hind end. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif His Lyme's test definitely came back positive according to my vet.

[Kiwayu]

Luie- Where are you in giving the doxy? Are you going to be giving more?

[Luie's Person]

Hi Kristen: Luie's Doxy will end on TH or FRI. My vet says if the 1st course of Doxy doesn't work, then it's not going to. I'm hoping that this latest skin-thing is a final 'gasp' of Lyme. He was doing so well -- I am really, really bummed. Emailed the vet re: advice clearing up "the pits". Have you tried the Microtek shapo and spray routine?? That worked really well everywhere except his pits. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif
Jehanne

[Kiwayu]

Luie- If your vet is right, and if the 1st course of doxy doesn't work, then what do you do???? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif My doxy ends on Saturday, but I think we'll be doing more, or something else.

[Sansena]

Yes, please tell us what the vet says is the next route if a cycle of doxy isn't effective.

I thought the next step was just to try again, but keep them on it longer/ higher dose

[Robyn]

Yes, WHAT do you do if the first course of doxy doesn't do the trick? And how do you determine if it has in fact worked - is the horse totally recovered, or just moving in the right dirction? I rode Reggie on Friday and while he seemed just fine in the field - came galloping full tilt across the field the night before, I felt like I was pushing him along undersaddle. Poky walk, somewhat OK trot, but just not not all there. Still blah and dull. He has another week of the doxy left...

Robin

[Luie's Person]

Way back at the beginning of this, I asked Luie's vet what we'd do if the doxy didn't work. She said it would take a different antibiotic - sounded as tho there are several choices. FWIW her doxy dosage for Luie was 30% higher than what the dispensing vet recommended, but would only be administered for 21 days, not 30. Vet has reassured me several times that the doxy plus the homeopathics (8 30c Ledum P and 8 30c Rhus Tox each day for the 21 days) has cured *every* case of Lyme she's come across. Needless to say, I'm knocking on wood that her success rate continues and Luie's not her first clunker!

Janet, Luie's vet - Jana Froeling- knows Dr. Kiefer. Thanks!

It's such a beautiful day here...*has* to be good news out there!

[Luie's Person]

Forgot to say: I've been told to expect a complete recovery - NO symptoms, lethary etc - and the usual time for rehab (after almost 2 months off.)

[Phaxxton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kiwayu:
I forgot to add...are there any good websites to do some more reading on Lyme's in horses? I tried doing a google search but there isn't anything good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Search for Lyme Disease (NOT Lyme's)... You should get better results.

[Boston Chicken]

My gelding had hives too for a couple of weeks - but they seem to have gone away now. My horse is nearly finished with his antibiotic, so we'll retest in a few weeks and see how his titre is then. I feel that he is better but probably not 100% yet.

Kiwayu - just wondered about the EPM test results since your farrier made a comment about him having trouble shoeing his hind 2. I'm sorry he's having such trouble.

[Kiwayu]

Phaxxton- I did do a search on "lyme disease", not "Lyme's". But thanks. Unless you found something interesting??

Boston Chicken- Kiwayu had a hard time hold up his right hind leg only. My "trainer", I hate that word, is stopping down tomorrow morning to watch Kiwayu trot. Then from there we will decide if I should talk to the vet then, or wait 2 days like planned.

[Kiwayu]

Today Kiwayu looked about 90-95% normal. Kinda stiff in the begining of our 5-10 minute lunge. What's with this rollercoaster? I'm going to give my vet an update on Wednesday which will be day 27 on the doxy. I guess we'll see what she says...

On a even brighter note, Kiwayu's hives (possible rain rot-not sure) is going away! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Luie's Person]

glad to hear good news about Kiwayu! Luie is still muddling through...doxy will end on the 23rd so I'm hoping everything takes a big upswing from here. BTW You wonder how they could get rain rot or whatever w/ all the antibios and daily fussing.

[Kiwayu]

Luie- My friend was shocked when I told her that Kiwayu has rain rot! I fuss over Kiwayu 2-3 times a day, plus all the antibiotics. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I swear these horses give us a hard time on purpose.

[Lookout]

Rain rot is an indication of a poorly functioning immune system, not a careless owner or its living conditions. It's also the body's way of trying to "detox" itself, removing junk from inside the body.

[kcooper]

An update on Cleo - two weeks into her second 30-day round of doxy, she still had symptoms. I took her back to the vet for more blood work. Normal CBC; vit E and selenium levels high normal; Lyme titre negative and the second Titre a lower level. Of course, but the time I got the results back, her symptoms had gone as well. So the vet feels the doxy has worked. I am finishing this second round and then will take her off of it. We'll wait and see if symptoms resume.
I had specifically asked if the titre would be accurate since she was still on the doxy and the vet said yes. I also asked about doing a re-test after a couple of weeks off of the meds and he did not think it was necessary. He said to just watch for symptoms to return. Of course, Cleo's symptoms were pretty easy to discern so that could be why he thinks that way.
Re: insurance - mine has paid all my claims for the Lyme and meds. They even paid the for the negative test that came back firs. Of course, I filed a claim for lameness (because I had no idea that I was dealing with Lyme at first, I thought she had pain somewhere that I could not detect).
Re: articles - there are a couple of good ones on http://www.thehorse.com I have a subscription, so I can read them all. But some of the articles you can read without a subscription.

[Luie's Person]

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">HERE IS THE LATEST ARTICLE FROM THE HORSE.COM., A GIFT TO Y'ALL FROM LUIE. THE INFO HERE ON TREATMENT WILL MAKE MANY FEEL OK ABOUT A SECOND COURSE OF DOXY.</span>
Lyme Disease Update SUBSCRIBER ARTICLE @ THE HORSE.COM.
by: Christina Cable, DVM, Dipl. ACVS
May 2005 Article # 5691

Lyme disease is a problem more commonly thought to occur in our canine and human friends than horses. However, occur it does, and it can have a wide range of signs and symptoms. This disease is a perplexing and confusing one to diagnose and treat in horses, as it has similar clinical signs to many other diseases.

Lyme, Slyme, What's in a Name?

Lyme disease is a relatively recent disease for horses and humans, as it did not achieve widespread recognition until 30 years ago, when multiple humans--mostly children--were diagnosed with an infectious arthritis in Old Lyme and Lyme, Conn., hence the name. The disease is caused by the bacteria Borrelia burgdorferi, so it is also sometimes called Lyme borreliosis.

The organism B. burgdorferi is not a bacterial infection you can just pick up at any run-of-the-mill, bacteria-laden mini mart. This particular bacteria prefers to be hosted by ticks. As a result, the infection is thought to be transmitted to humans, horses, and dogs solely via a tick bite.

The ticks most frequently implicated in carrying B. burgdorferi bacteria are of the genus Ixodes. This particular genus has approximately 250 species of ticks worldwide (at least 25 of which live in North America). So, yes, Lyme disease occurs worldwide, with cases in humans and other mammals having occurred in Europe, Asia, Africa, and Japan. In North America, Lyme disease occurs most often in the Northeastern and Midwestern United States, but it can occur throughout the country.

Vampiric Arthropods?

To understand how humans and other mammals acquire this infection, you must understand how ticks acquire the bacteria first. The Ixodes species of tick (also known as a deer tick or black-legged tick) has a two-year life cycle from egg to adult, requiring a blood meal at each life stage. The larval form of the tick begins as it emerges from the egg, which is usually laid in decaying leaves by its mother, often in the spring. The larvae then feed on small mammals such as mice or birds to have a blood meal. Once fed, the larvae can molt into nymphs, but remain dormant until the following spring. The next spring, the nymphs are hungry and will feed on mice or other mammals, such as humans, dogs, or horses. Then the ticks molt again and develop into adults. The adults will again feed on humans, horses, or other large mammals, but especially deer. Then they mate and lay eggs. The adult female ticks will die after laying eggs.

The ticks become infected with B. burgdorferi after the first or second blood meal as larvae or nymphs. In the Northeastern United States, the ticks most often acquire the Borrelia organism from white-footed mice. The tick is considered a reservoir for the Borrelia organism, as it lives within the tick while causing no apparent disease.

The Borrelia organism has also been cultured from mouse urine, but at this point, we do not think that transmission to horses, humans, or other creatures occurs in any way except via a tick bite. There has been no evidence that transmission of Lyme disease can occur directly from animal to human; there must be a tick involved for transmission.

You've Been Sucking How Long?

A tick can be attached and sucking blood for days before you find it, if you find it. It is believed that the tick must be attached for at least 24 hours in order to transmit the Lyme disease organism.

Because of that fact, in people at least, the nymph stage of a tick's life cycle is the most likely stage to be infected and transmit the organism responsible for causing Lyme disease. The adult ticks are much larger and are more likely to be seen and removed while feeding on you, your horse, or your dog. The nymph stage however, is quite small (only two to three millimeters long) and much more likely to be missed on your, or especially your hair-covered horse's, body. That means they are more likely to be able to feed for days undisturbed and transmit any disease they might be carrying.

Got the Creepy Crawlies?

Now that everyone is checking their body for suspicious blood suckers, let's talk about the signs of Lyme disease. In humans, many times a tick that has transmitted the Lyme disease organism to you will leave a very noticeable bull's-eye red rash at or near the actual bite, which is screaming, "Warning, Warning, Lyme Disease Here!" This rash is followed by sore and painful joints and a fever.

In animals, if the rash occurs at all, it would be very difficult to see due to the hair coat. So what do you see?

In horses with Lyme disease, clinical signs range from stiffness to a shifting-leg lameness, or multi-limb lameness. They might have a fever or swollen joints. Some horses appear lethargic and unwilling to work. There has been one report of Lyme disease causing a neurologic disorder and uveitis (moon-blindness) in a single horse and pony, but this is rare.

Got Lyme?

So, if you have a horse with suspicious signs, and other diseases such as osteoarthritis or rhabdomyolysis (muscle disorders) have been ruled out, now what? In our practice area of upstate New York, we test often for Lyme disease, but only rarely find it. The diagnosis of this disease in horses has been a puzzle and a problem for veterinarians worldwide. To diagnose Lyme disease, the first step is a blood test. The horse's blood will be checked for antibodies to the causative organism. If the horse has a high ELISA titer (greater than 300 Kela units) and a positive Western blot test for the organism, then your horse has absolutely been exposed to the organism, but might not have active disease. If your horse has a high titer and has clinical signs of the disease, then he probably has Lyme disease.

Also, to add to the confusion, if your horse has a low titer, there are several possibilities. The horse could:

Not be infected;
Has been infected in the past, but has cleared the infection; or
Is currently infected, but for less than 40-60 days, thus he has not yet mounted a large immune response.
The other problem with diagnosing Lyme disease is that we do not yet know how long it takes for a horse to develop clinical signs of the disease once bitten by an infected tick. According to Thomas Divers, DVM, Dipl. ACVIM, of Cornell University, the incubation period can be "as quick as a few days to weeks." Unfortunately, every horse is different.

In some cases, the disease can absolutely be confirmed by the use of a test called PCR (polymerase chain reaction test). Unfortunately, it can't be used on blood samples. PCR can detect the DNA of the B. burgdorferi organism, which can hide within the synovial tissue inside a horse's joint, causing pain and inflammation. A sample of this synovial tissue tested using PCR might provide proof that the organism is there and causing disease. Hence, you would have a confirmed diagnosis of Lyme disease.

The disadvantage to this procedure (called a synovial biopsy) is that it is invasive, and many veterinarians will not want to perform this procedure on the farm. The procedure can be performed in a standing, sedated horse, but the environment must be clean and dry. In our practice, a synovial biopsy is most often performed in the fetlock or carpal (knee) joint, but any joint that is suspicious for infection is appropriate.

Make a Plan

All signs point to Lyme disease, and you have a diagnosis. Treatment of Lyme disease is also a problem because it can be prolonged. Many horses come to the Lyme diagnosis after many other treatments have been attempted. Treatment of Lyme disease most commonly involves one or two antibiotics. Tetracyline is a very effective treatment for Lyme disease and is relatively inexpensive. However, it must be given intravenously once a day, so most horses will only be treated with this antibiotic for a short time. Doxycycline is a related antibiotic, but it can be given orally. This drug must be given twice a day, but because it is poorly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, treatment duration is often prolonged, frequently one month or more. Sometimes, it is necessary to treat for months at a time until the antibody level has dropped to a low level. In some cases, the organism (and therefore disease) is never eradicated from the body.

An Ounce of Prevention

We all know the old adage, but what can we do for our horses? For ourselves, if we are in an area that is likely to have ticks, we can wear long-sleeve shirts and pants to prevent ticks from gaining access to our skin. But it can be very hard to keep ticks from crawling onto our horses and latching on. Several topical sprays used on dogs have been used on horses with mixed results, and the sprays are not approved for use on horses. There is also a canine vaccine against Lyme disease, and an equine vaccine is currently being researched, but it is not available at this time. Some veterinarians have used the canine vaccine in horses, but the efficacy of this practice is unknown. Our best hope is the development of an effective equine vaccine.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REFERENCES:

Divers, T.J. "Lyme Disease." Current Therapy in Equine Medicine 5. (Ed) N. Edward Robinson. Philadelphia, Saunders, 2003, pp. 54-55.

Divers, Thomas J., DVM, Dipl. ACVIM, personal communication.

Madigan, J.E. "Lyme Disease (Lyme Borreliosis) in Horses." Veterinary Clinics of North America. Vol. 9-2, Philadelphia, Saunders,1993: pp. 429-434.

See the Lyme Disease category under Infectious Diseases at http://www.TheHorse.com.
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[Kiwayu]

Thanks Luie for that article!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I got on Kiwayu yesterday for the first time in about a month, and he was just a little stiff and relunctant to move forward, but otherwise felt GREAT! I'm calling the vet later today to touch base. I'll post later today with what she says.

[Robyn]

Yes, thanks for the article. I'm wondering if I should ask my vet about a longer treatment for Reggie. He still has another day on the doxy - which will make three weeks in all, after starting with three IV oxytet injections. I hope to ride him later today to get a feel for how he is. I wonder if a longer treatment would just be a good precaution to be sure we "got" it?

Glad that your guy is improving, Kristin!

Robin

[Kiwayu]

I just thought I'd let everyone know that Kiwayu is 100%!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I spoke to the vet yesterday and she wants to do 2 more weeks of doxy just to be safe. She feels that he improved "late" in the 30 day treatment and wants to make sure we "kill" it all. I'm so happy right now. I got on him yesterday for the 2nd time and he felt GREAT!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif If Kiwayu can over come this, I'm sure everyone else's horses will get to this point too.

How is everyone else doing?

[Luie's Person]

Congrats Kristen and Kiwayu - WOOHOO!! We're very excited for you!

Luie's muscle aches and pains are down to ZERO but the skin thing is still hanging on. Getting much better - the sores are finally shrinking- (the armpit area is just totally problematic). Yesterday I think he could have been a poster child for the "Annals of Equine Dermatology": *who knew* so much skin could shed at one time yet leave a haircoat perfectly in tact? It looked a tad alien http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. I'll report back once I'm able to mount the summit of my very own K-2! Health to all.

[Robyn]

GREAT news, Kristin! I'm so happy that he's finally turned the corner! I'm also happy to report that my ride on Reggie yesterday was the best in five weeks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He seemed totally normal, but did seem to tire a bit toward the end. But he was full of get up and go - for a change! I'm also going to talk to my vet about another two weeks of doxy for him, just as a precaution. We seem so close, I don't want to take any chances that it's not really gone.

Good luck!
Robin

[Kiwayu]

I'm so glad to hear that Luie and Reggie are doing better too! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Robyn- I'm curious as to what your vet will say about another 2 weeks of doxy. Everyone has different opinions and it's driving me nuts. I don't know what to do. I picked up the other two weeks of doxy today at the vet's, and I swear I have paid for a new house. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Three bottles of doxy cost me $233 today, on top of the $848 I've already spent in tests/medications. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I think Kiwayu needs to get a job so he can get health benefits. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Robyn]

I'll be gone over the weekend, but will talk to the vet on Monday and report back. Out of curiousity, what are you paying per bottle for 500 count 100 mil. tablets? I can get them from the people pharmacy for about $55, which is the same as Valley Vet. Reggie was on 5000 mil. daily, or 50 pills. I'm more than willing to fork over the extra $60 or so dollars to make sure that this horrible disease is gone. I LIKE having my horse back http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Robin

[CMBEQ]

I'm glad this thread was at the top, I was just going to make one. I read through 80% of this, and that article but can someone explain if there are any other tell-tale symptoms besides leg swelling? Sonora, my 1.5 year old Paint has had swelling in her hind legs for almost a week now. At first it was both, then the right, now the left, etc. I put poultice on her for two days, I thought it might be from lunging her. That seemed like it helped at first, but now the swelling's been back. I haven't done anything with her except groom her and she gets turned out everyday. She does seem slightly grumpier than usual, though that could be due to the growing filly syndrome. If anyone has advice, or some insight please let me know. I'm going to give the vet a call tomorrow as it is. Thanks in advance.

[Phaxxton]

Glad to hear the good news on your horses, guys! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Robyn]

CMBEQ, my horse never had any swellings. Just an "out of gas" attitude. Blah, dull, just leave me alone kind of thing. Oh, and somebody else mentioned a blank stare, which he also had. Like nobody was home. My old horse who had lyme about 10 years ago, had the same symptoms in addition to lower limb swelling in all four legs. Good luck with your filly.

Robin

[chism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Robyn:
CMBEQ, my horse never had any swellings. Just an "out of gas" attitude. Blah, dull, just leave me alone kind of thing. Oh, and somebody else mentioned a blank stare, which he also had. Like nobody was home. My old horse who had lyme about 10 years ago, had the same symptoms in addition to lower limb swelling in all four legs. Good luck with your filly.

Robin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robin....mine too. She's normally the life of the party and just had no get up and go. Her test was low positive, she wasn't lame, just "blah". After the Doxy, she's got a lot more energy but she lost a lot of muscle and has no fitness.

[Kiwayu]

Robyn- Kiwayu is getting 100, 100mg pills DAILY = 10,000mgs at $70 a bottle. I did find Costco cheaper the first time at $67, but for the last three bottles it was easier to just pick it up at the vet rather than dealing with prescriptions, etc. How big is your horse that he's on half of Kiwayu's dose? Kiwayu is about 1000 pounds at 15.2h.

Kiwayu's symptoms: Extremely stiff, on/off lameness, swelling, very grouchy, hurt in every muscle, and very "blah".

[Boston Chicken]

My horse continues to do well and his treatment is now over as well. We're waiting a couple of weeks and re-testing to see what the level says now. I still feel a stiffness when he first gets into the ring but he works out of it. However, it's new since this last bout with Lyme so I am still concerned.

[kcooper]

Cleo is doing well, too. She has about 4 days of doxy left.
CMBEQ - Cleo had swelling in all four legs by the time she was diagnosed. It started in her hind legs and then shifted. The shifting is a frequent Lyme symptom. Also, poultice and wrapping did no good at all. She also had general overall stiffness and was very down and depressed.
I have been riding again every other day for about 2 weeks. She is still sort of stiff, but I think is improving. I attribute some of it to the time off and the fact that she lost some muscle and is always a horse who needs to work to maintain flexibility. Congrats to all the others who are making it to recovery!

[CMBEQ]

Thanks guys. I spoke with my vet today and he said to keep working her how I had been and see if she works out of it, that it might be just because she's young or something. But basically if she doesn't change in a week, give him a call. He said that a lot of people mistake lyme for other things so to try that first. I guess I'll see.

[Robyn]

Kristin, Reggie is about the same size as your guy. (Advertised as 15'3" and a half, but they always exagerate and I've never sticked him.) Maybe he was on less because of the initial oxytet IVs?

Robin

[Kiwayu]

I'd be interested to find out why Reggie is on half the dose. Everyone I talk to around here tell me their horses are/were on somewhere between 80-100 pills of doxy a day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Phaxxton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMBEQ:
I'm glad this thread was at the top, I was just going to make one. I read through 80% of this, and that article but can someone explain if there are any other tell-tale symptoms besides leg swelling? Sonora, my 1.5 year old Paint has had swelling in her hind legs for almost a week now. At first it was both, then the right, now the left, etc. I put poultice on her for two days, I thought it might be from lunging her. That seemed like it helped at first, but now the swelling's been back. I haven't done anything with her except groom her and she gets turned out everyday. She does seem slightly grumpier than usual, though that could be due to the growing filly syndrome. If anyone has advice, or some insight please let me know. I'm going to give the vet a call tomorrow as it is. Thanks in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you checked for lymphangitis? I'd look into that...

[Luie's Person]

Good news continues! Luie's nasty http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif armpits w/ oozing sores is 100% cleared up. AND I longed him last night and apart from his 'old gimp' which I expected to see after so much time off - HE"S PERFECT!!!! Bright-eyed and sense of curious humor returned. I'm so happy. will start his routine US tonight. Figure it will be basically walking for eons - but who cares! I'm going to keep him on a low does of muscle relaxers for awhile to make certain that rehab doesn't wig him out. He tends to get worked up when he doesn't do things 'perfectly'. *Best* boy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif!

CMBEQ: Luie's first symptom was hyper-skin sensitivity (like invisible flies or midges all over him), followed rapidly by a REALLY sore back that would switch sides every few days. One lower leg got puffy from what appeared to be a routine pasture nick - no heat, just swelling that went for what seemed like ages. He also had colicky behavior (probably from back and 'skin'). Needless to say he was really grumpy. Hope your little one seems better these days!

It will be interesting to see if any of our beasties have any changes after recovery. Tiring more easily or everyday booboos not healing as quickly etc. Cheers!

[Kiwayu]

Luie- That's great news!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Kiwayu is still doing great, and he's been CRAZY!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But I'll take crazy anyday. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Kiwayu's got another 13 days left of the extra 15 days of doxy. I'm curious to how he's going to be once the meds are done.

[can't re-]

It's great to read the Lyme's horses are doing so great.

Has Kiwayu's water intake increased from the 2 or so inches a day?

[Kiwayu]

Can't re- Kiwayu normally doesn't really drink and averages 2-3" of water a day. The first weeks he was on the doxy he was drinking BUCKETS!!! I had spoken to the vet and she claimed she's never heard of the doxy doing anything like that to a horse. We have no idea why, but after that first week he went back to normal. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I don't want him drinking buckets to the point where he's peeing every chrystal clear 2 minutes (like he was), but I don't want him drinking 2" a day. Why can't he find a happy medium??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif With the weather changing so much the past couple of weeks, I've been giving him a bran mash every night, which he NEVER finishes. He hates bran mashes. His feeding times had to be switched because of the doxy, so when I feed the other horses, I just feed him a bran mash so he's getting something. He gets alfalfa cubes daily so I'm not concerned about the Ca/Pos levels.

On a good note, Kiwayu has about 7 days left of the extra 15 days of the doxy. Then he's DONE!!!! He's been moving 110%, and feeling great! I'm moving him to a new barn soon, which has me concerned with his immune system and the stress, but I have no control over the move. He should be happier at the new place anyway.

[frugalannie]

Have been lurking on this one, but had to chime in to say how delighted I am to read that the Lyme horses are all improving.

Congratulations to all who have hung in there, and are now seeing the positive results!

[kcooper]

Anybody using a probiotic after the course of doxy? I have noticed that Cleo has been yawing her jaws after her meals - which started after she began taking the doxy. I am doing some research on probiotics b/c I wonder if she needs the balance put back into her system. Anyone else looking into this or doing it?

[Kiwayu]

Kcooper- My vet prescribed a probiotic for Kiwayu to take WHILE on the doxy. It has to be given at lunch meals since it will counter-act the doxy. He'll also be on the probiotic for about a week after the doxy is finished too.

[Luie's Person]

To the 'Lyme Crew': Isn't is great that this yuckky disease DOES go away???? I know I'll be checking titres w/ fall and spring shots - would much rather NOT deal w/ full blown symptoms again!
Re: PrBios...yes, my vet said a VG idea. Luie got his w/ the doxy, and is continuing w/ the PBs now and for good.
Kiwayu: I had always been told that multiple bran mashes in a week were not good. Cleans out the gut tooo much. Ther is a condition called "Bran Mash Disease". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif
Be well all!

[bwf]

Well add me to the support group! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif My mare was just diagnosed with Lyme's. We just bought ths mare over the summer. She is 6 and I have had her tested for all kinds of stuff. Her symptoms started with what looked like hoof sore. We put shoes on all around. Then she would be down in her paddock sleeping all the time. Then it looked like her hind end. She would start out in her rides good and then buck and get upset 20 mins in to the ride. Had vet out lookes like her Sacraillium sp? had that injected. Looked great for a week and then worse. Could not walk. When she gets up after slepping she can not move. She passed all the nuero tests and hypp neg. I have had her on bute, robaxin, cortflex, devils claw, ulcer gaurd. Nothing was helping. Begged my Vet to test for Lymes he said it was a long shot! Well she has it! We start treatment today!!!!

[Robyn]

Oh bwf, I feel your pain. I just brought my three year old home from the trainers three days early since we both decided that I should have him tested for lyme. My trainer often said how very much quieter he was than she had anticipated him being, and we would shrug and say "maybe he has lyme too" since my other gelding was being treated for it. It was really just a joke since neither of us really thought that he did, but today we decided to find out since - as she put it - he is just TOO quiet for a three year old. She even had the vet watch him on the lunge line about a week ago because she was concerned. At that time he didn't think there was a problem. His observation was that horses that are sick are crabby when forced to work and he was just acting lazy. Anyway, the vet just left and said all Tucson's vital signs are good - no temp, no runny nose, not off feed, no swellings or obvious lameness, good gut sounds and respiration. We are running a CBC and sending in the lyme test tomorrow. Maybe my wonderful, smart, quiet gelding is still wonderful and smart, but not quite so quiet??? The vet said that the CBC would show elevated white cell count that would be an indication of infection and a heads up for lyme before the actual lyme test comes back. Or something like that. Anyway, good luck with your girl and cross your fingers for my youngster. The good news is that my other gelding seems to be just fine again.....many $$$ later of course.

Robin

[Luie's Person]

OK Group, I'm confused http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif. (Thrilled , naturally, that Luie is fine again and at long last in full rehab-work) but all these differing vet opinions I'm reading about when to treat...YIKES!!!

I started Luie on doxy because of his myriad symptoms which had NOT improved despite 2 weeks off, AND based on a positive 'snap test' for Lyme. BTW His blood work was all TEXTBOOK PERFECT -- no signs at all of ANYTHING awry. The results for Elissa (Mod Hi range) and Western Blot (only 3 out of 4) didn't come back until he was almost half way thru the doxy & homeopathics (and we also had to add Robaxin).

I've recently heard that not all vets do the snap test, and rely only on the Elissa and WBlot. Hmmm. I know I'll check his Elissa score in a few weeks to make certain it declined. Based on Luie's really uncomfortable experience w/ this creepy disease, I'm pretty sure I'd treat to see if there was a positive response, even if the tests were't conclusive. Our vet does do a combined "oriental-western" approach, and who knows how/when she'd recommend treatment, but I'd certainly be having LOTS of converstaions w/ her! (good thing she tolerates me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif) She's often told me that treating for Lyme is still frought w/ personal 'theories' -- perhaps because it can be so different from horse to horse? Again...just confused, and wishing I wasn't!

[Iride]

Does anyone know if a fever due to Erlichia or Lyme can stay high (i.e. 103 plus or minus a degree) for a number of days? Or does it always spike and then go down? Also, can there be no signs of joint discomfort at all?

[Robyn]

Luie's Person, I agree. I still have many more questions about lyme disease than I do answers. When Reggie was diagnosed about six weeks ago, the lyme test was the last to come back and the CBC - which came back quickly - did not show any irregularities. I've never heard of a snap test, but they did both the ELISA and Western Blot test to determine lyme. My difficulty is that my vet practice has five vets, and during all this I've dealt with four of them - all good vets, but all with slightly differing opinions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif The good news is that Reggie seems to be fine... Interestingly, a friend who uses a different vet had her horse recently diagnosed with lyme and he prescribed penicillin...which I think is an outdated method of treating lyme. That same vet diagnosed my old horse about 10 years ago and prescribed the same thing and my old guy did recover. When I think about all this I get a headache! Anyway, Tucson (three year old) came from a "non tick area" so IF he has lyme, he's had it a short time. He seems fine here at home, so maybe he's just REALLY smart and once he figured out what was required just didn't exert any more energy than was required??? That's what I'm hoping, anyway http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Robin

[Luie's Person]

Iride: sorry I can't help w/ your fever question -- I know that there is a horse at nearby barn w/ high fever for several days, no o' symptoms, that is being tested for Erlichia.

Robyn: The 'snap test' (as I understand it) is a simple 24? hour test the vet does in his/her office. Also used to initially diagnose dogs. I think it's similar to the home pregnancy kits - that sort of thing.

Everyone: wish you health!

[kcooper]

From the research I did, Lyme does not always cause a fever, and if it does it usually is a spike that goes down pretty quickly. There are differences between Lyme symptoms and erlichia symptoms.
I totally agree that all the different opinions on how to treat this make it tough to make decisions. At my vet clinic, the in-house vet made this diagnosis and worked with me on the treatment plan. One of the ambulatory vets talked with me about it and had a very different opinion on the length of time for the antibiotic treatment and IV vs. oral treatment. There is also a lot of conflicting opinions on this list and in other chat groups I found that had discussions of this disease. I basically posed all my questions to my vet and we talked it through and, so far anyways, Cleo has not had recurring symptoms. She did 60 days of oral doxy only. I think I will also do a titre in the spring when she gets her shots. Seems like a good idea.

[Kathy Johnson]

Hi guys,

My student and I have been silently following this thread for a few months and have learned so much from it. Here's the problem. The student bought a horse from the East Coast and shipped him to Colorado. A few months later, he started showing weird physical issues, hypersensitivity, shifting lameness, sore back, and so on. To make a long story short, the vets here have never seen Lyme. By some quirk, being from the East Coast herself, she tested him for Lyme. It came back positive.

The vet here is treating him and he responded very positively to the antibiotics, but we are all a little in the dark, don't know how long to treat, and so on. The vet has never treated, or even seen a Lyme horse before. None of the vets here have, so a new vet won't help.

The horse has been on antibiotics for 10 weeks. Yesterday, he had a mild colic and severe diarreah. We are pretty sure his stomach is objecting to the antibiotics. We were going to treat him for 12 weeks, then see, because we did not want to undertreat.

Does anyone have a vet with a lot of experience with Lyme who would be willing to talk to our vet? The owner will gladly pay for his/her time. We need a contact quickly, before we start the horse back on antibiotics today. If someone's vet agrees, you can PM me with the number.

Thanks so much in advance!

Kathy

[cosmos mom]

Kathy, University of Pennsylvania's New Bolton Veterinary Clinic would help you, I'm sure. They have A LOT of experience with this!

[Eventer55]

Kathy Johnson: I live in lyme disease central aka Shelter Island NY. All the vets out here treat horses for lyme quite frequently. I will PT you with the name of my vet and your vet can call him.

My horse was just diagnosed with lyme disease. He has not been right for almost a year and blood was normal, so we took a lyme titer and it came back 1 in 20,000, we also did a wblot and it was close to 400. He is now on doxy and it is week 2. I see a big difference in his ankles which were quite swollen and he was generally dopey. As for feeding the doxy, I feed a sweet feed and also alfalfa pellets. I put the doxy in the bucket and add warm water. The molassas masks the doxy and I don't have a problem. The alfalfa breaks down and the doxy seems to just mix in. If he doesn't eat his grain, I leave it and he does eat it. By now he's used to the doxy I guess and no problems.

As I said I'll pt you with my vet. I am also curious as to why your horses has been on antibiotics for so long. We treat for 30 days and retest. He should also be on probiotics.

[Kathy Johnson]

You guys are the best! The owner has talked to the East Coast vet, and will put our vet in contact. No one has seen Lyme, so it has been a real God-send to have this bulletin board. Thanks again,

[Angela Freda]

Depending on the Doxy you are treating with, they may be coated, in which case I found the best way to dose them was to just put them in with the grain. My horse cleaned them right up! I discovered this w/help from another BB friend and after trying to mask it in mashes, and syringing it and the probiotic. What a relief to have him just eat them!
I also got a great pelleted version of the probiotic that I believe helped my horse not have any ill effects from the ABS (diarrhea for maybe a day, and no colic (touch wood))

My horse, I thought, was asymptomatic also... but now after 4 weeks on Doxy he is a changed man! He is 21 this year, and I just thought he was aging... exponentially, right before my eyes. It was very stressful on me to see this. Then we got the titer back and after about 2 weeks on it, he perked right back to his old self. He's bucking and running when free in the indoor, and lunges so much better as well. I have only ridden him once since we stopped the ABs, and he acted like he had 10 years ago, fresh, cranky and full of himself!
I also will do a lyme titer with shots... and be treating religiously with the Equispot spring, summer and fall, as well as dousing him in flyspray with permethrin. I failed to use it this year (to which I attribute him getting bitten/infected). The money spent on these is far less than the $700 plus my time that this has cost me!
Now I am just praying for no relapses!

[audgesmom]

I am treating for lyme here in mass (lyme central) too....filled my scrip at costco for about 380 for 8 weeks....we are in week 4/5 and oh my what a difference! I wish I had recognized it sooner....we had wandering lameness and general slowness...

[ponymom64]

I think I will be joining this support group soon. I had the vet pull blood on my very cranky pony yesterday, so I should have the results early next week.

[Angela Freda]

What was the dose of Doxy (100 mg?) that your vet had you put your horse on? And what is the approx weight of your horse? I am interested in the variety of doses (anywhere from 35-60 pills bid, and not associated with the horses size from what I can tell) that I have run across.
My horse was on 50 BID, and is 16hh, weighs in at somewhere around 1100 pounds, I think.
I also wanted to comment, after reading through this thread (thanks but it scared the heck outta' me!), that Yo also has trouble getting up! When I let him in the indoor to have his freetime, he always rolls, and since before he was diagnosed, he was having trouble getting back up... sometimes lying there as if trying to decide if it's worth it or if he should just lay there a while. It scares the he!! outta me!
Please, those of you who are further along the path post treatment, give us a shout and tell us how you are doing?!

[Kiwayu]

Kiwayu UPDATE:
I finished the 45 day treatment of doxy back in early November. At the end of treatment Kiwayu was a totally different horse- moving better than he ever was, and just a happier horse. Then about 2 weeks after we were off the doxy, he started getting stiff again. I immediately thought that the Lyme never completely went away, but at the same time the weather got cold and rainy. Kiwayu is a 19 year old OTTB that raced for 7 years, who has DJD in his hocks. I was ready to call the vet back, my trainer wanted to to wait and see if he got better or worse with the weather. I played around with his joint supplement and put him on Chrondrogen EQ, and WOW, he's a different horse!!! I know Lyme also causes arthritis depending how long it goes untreated. In my case, I think Kiwayu went a really long time untreated. He had little signs all summer (that I didn't put together until october) and then finially the vet figured out what was really going on. So far, he's still moving wonderfully, and doesn't show any signs. But, deep down inside me I still wonder "does he still have it?" Kiwayu is getting retested in March. My vet said you need to wait 3-4 months after treatment to retest otherwise you will get a positive test. I'm going to do spring shots a little bit earlier and test him then. It's a long, expensive road to go down, but everyone will get through it.

[Kiwayu]

Angela Freda- Where are you from in NY?

[Angela Freda]

Kristen, I am in Orange Co., an hour NW of NYC. I am originally from Rochester.
Oh, I see you are on LI... where did Kiwayu race?
Yo raced at Finger Lakes, near Rochester.

[Eventer55]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but all of you might be interested to know that 9 out of 10 times a horse will eat coated pills with no treats, mashes etc. The reason is that they can't smell the medication through the coating. For example my filly eats her cimetidine right out of my hand with 2 large mints. Doxy is the same it's coated and my gelding will eat it right along with his feed. Although he does get a a sweet feed and pellets.

[Kiwayu]

Angela- Kiwayu isn't from NY. Born in Kentucky, but raced mainly in Europe.

[Angela Freda]

Eventer55- yup- Yo ate the coated Doxy I was dosing, but some of the posters on this thread, it appears had to deal with capsules not tablets.

Kiwayu- well... sniff... Europe,eh?! La-de-dah!
(kidding) Way cool. Did he race on the flat or over fences? Do you find then, that he is the reverse of hte racehorses from the states (Yo is stiffer to the right cause he raced going left)?
Yo was also bred in KY, but born in NY... he was bred at Spendthrift, he's by Muscovite out of a mare named Watauga. Kiwayu?

[Luie's Person]

Gosh! I'm so sorry this thread has 'resurfaced'. You'd think that with the colder weather there wouldn't be so many new cases appearing. But those stupid ticks can hide in the most out of the way, warmest places.

BTW, I don't know if 'spot-on' monthly tick repellants would actually stop the transfer of the disease. If I remember correctly, it takes 24 hrs for a feeding tick to die when using the spot ons?

BTW, Luie is JUST NOW back to where he was physically before the onset of Lyme. He's really great and I'm so happy to 'have him back'. Still have him on a minimal daily dose of Robaxin, as the rehab/coming back into work was really emotionally stressful for him. Such a worry wart, that boy! We send encouragement, good health, happy new year to all. Always happy to lend support: Keep us posted!

[Kiwayu]

Angela- Kiwayu raced on the flat. I don't really find that he's reversed. He was also raced in the states and canada. My little boy has been all over. I know where Kiwayu was born in Kentucky, but can't think of it at the moment. It's written down in his file. He's by Nureyev, out of a mare named Kuja Happa.

*Kiwayu is feeling so good now, that today he bucked my a$$ off into a steel portable fence. I can't walk on my heel and it's so bruised up that my mom thinks I might have broken or fractured it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif