ASPCA/Humane Society-Your Donation Dollars At Work

[OldLadyOnATB]

This whole situation with the small animal rescue at Lamar Dixon has ticked me off to the very limit of my patience. Apparently both organizations are fighting for control and subsequently no one is in charge. The Equine Unit is being run byt the State Veterniarian's office and LSU...we are SO glad that the ASPCA and/or Humane Society are not involved with the horses...what a fiasco.

The pictures I am going to refer you to shows a daily occurance....these organizations back a large box truck up to the dumpster in front of Barn 4 and start throwing away BRAND NEW and hardly used dog crates into the dumpster. Apparently they would rather throw them away and open new ones than clean the ones they have. They have been bringing in tractor trailer loads of new crates every day. Apparently there is no end to the supply. I am sure that many people donated money and/or goods for small animal relief. I think the waste is attrocious.

They do the same with excess bags of dog food too. One day they were throwing away entire pallets of 40 lb. bags of dog food because they were afraid that if it rained it might get wet. I guess it was too much trouble to try to store it inside somewhere.

Anyway....if you follow my webshots link and click on the Katrina folder you will see pictures of them throwing the new crates in the dumpster. It is downright sinfull.

Elizabeth

[OldLadyOnATB]

This whole situation with the small animal rescue at Lamar Dixon has ticked me off to the very limit of my patience. Apparently both organizations are fighting for control and subsequently no one is in charge. The Equine Unit is being run byt the State Veterniarian's office and LSU...we are SO glad that the ASPCA and/or Humane Society are not involved with the horses...what a fiasco.

The pictures I am going to refer you to shows a daily occurance....these organizations back a large box truck up to the dumpster in front of Barn 4 and start throwing away BRAND NEW and hardly used dog crates into the dumpster. Apparently they would rather throw them away and open new ones than clean the ones they have. They have been bringing in tractor trailer loads of new crates every day. Apparently there is no end to the supply. I am sure that many people donated money and/or goods for small animal relief. I think the waste is attrocious.

They do the same with excess bags of dog food too. One day they were throwing away entire pallets of 40 lb. bags of dog food because they were afraid that if it rained it might get wet. I guess it was too much trouble to try to store it inside somewhere.

Anyway....if you follow my webshots link and click on the Katrina folder you will see pictures of them throwing the new crates in the dumpster. It is downright sinfull.

Elizabeth

[BasqueMom]

Maybe it's time that someone from LSU went over
and knocked heads together!

That is so unbelievable--any of these folks ever price these crates? They are not that hard to stack and store and could be offered to folks
reclaiming animals, to other humane societies.
I foster cats/kittens for our little local
humane society and those are at a premium. Am having to borrow at least one large dog crate to move the "summer" house cat and kittens into the garage for all the rain Rita is supposed to bring our area. Our group would love to have
a supply of these for transporting animals from animal control facilities or to the vets--our critters are all kept in foster homes.

You all should start raiding the dumpster and
stacking them in empty stalls. Surely someone at LSU could find places that are desperate for them. Like the Texas coast very soon.

And again, thanks for all your efforts with the horses!

[Patchouli]

*WOW* That is rediculous! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[J Swan]

I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but that is standard practice with the big groups like HSUS and such.

I'm glad that you are helping take care of the horses and I'm serious when I say that I wish you were in charge of the next disaster. Which sounds like it's going to be in Texas. And another plea will go out for food and crates...

Your hard earned donations to charity at work, folks.

Why not contact the Today show and ask them to bring back Wayne to explain this?

[monstrpony]

Oh, yeah, those folks working to take care of the horses have lots of spare time to be pulling crates out of the trash ... and lots of empty stalls to store them in, no doubt. Hello--pet crates are plastic, they can stay out in the rain when not in use. Why should the vet school have to pick up after the people who are supposed to be looking after the small animals?

I've been told to ask people to lend/donate crates for a pet refugee transport. It's not going to do my credibility any good when word gets out that perfectly usable crates are going in the dumpster. How about just storing them so that when we come to pick up a load of refugees to take to distant states, so that they'll have a better chance of finding a new adoptive home, that we don't have to beg and borrow from our friends and neighbors. Wouldn't a new crate be a nice thing to give to someone who's taking one of these animals in, if there's such an excess? And, yes--what about Texas? Or at least, send them back to the donor so the price on my next crate doesn't go up??

This is SO absurd!

You know who's going to suffer out of all this? The animals, of course. Hope all the animals in Texas have been evacuated (yeah, right) because there aren't going to be many donation $$$ left to help them out after Rita hits.

[luvmytbs]

Seems to me, this would be the time to invite someone from the media.
If this gets to the general public, these entities would be under enough fire to rethink their actions, I would hope.

[carolprudm]

That's why my money went to LSU

[FairWeather]

This is absolutely infuriating. How many rescue groups could put those to good use after they were cleaned?
Its absolutely outrageous!

[Frank B]

The mass media won't touch it -- political correctness, you know! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Galloway]

Disgusting, and that makes complete and utter sense to the idjits in charge?
No consideration that someone else could use what they no longer want.

[Lion1024]

OLTB -

Are you sure those men are from HSUS? I ask not to insult you, but becuase I donated a large amount of $ to the HSUS and if this is indeed the case, I will be placing a call, writing a letter, with your pictures attached and everything else I can think of.

[NMS]

I would not be so sure the media would not touch this. I think they would, and they should. Elizabeth, do you have any media contacts. Does anyone here?

I'd like to see this hit the AP wires for everyone to view. BS for the "politically correct" argument. This is outrageous.

Nancy

[sleepdeprived]

If I wanted people to find out about it I'd post it on another blog. Huffington Post maybe or Craig's List. There will be stories about the waste and abuse of donation dollars across the board. Red Cross volunteers have been quoted on TV and in articles about what they've seen recently.

Give em hell Old Lady!

PS--Is this HSUS doing this? Do you know exactly who it is? That's very important when you contact the media or post it someplace else.

[Cherry]

I, too, feel that this is an outrage!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Can't anything to be done to stop this? I'm in favor of an expose!!!! I think the media would love to jump on this one!

I use crates--I clean them, it's not that hard! I'm sure there are volunteers that would do that if someone just asked them! I understand that cleaning products are in short supply, but why not ask someone to help you out with that? There must be some companies out there that would be willing to donate what they need!!!!

Somehow I knew before I opened your thread OLOATB that this was going to be about the bickering these two factions and their wasteful ways..... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Must have gotten that impression of them from something I've read before in the press.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif It just seemed to me that the small animal rescues were mass chaos and terribly fragmented. Someone (FEMA) should have been in charge--it's supposed to be FEMA's job to organize things! Heck, I saw a guy interviewed on TV who just hopped in his car and went down to rescue animals on his own--how bad is that when individuals feel they need to help out on their own? This is America and when a disaster strikes no one can even organize a trip to the bathroom!? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Something should be done about this! Those crates are not inexpensive and could be given to people who plan to return to New Orleans so they can be more prepared in the future!!!!! What is the matter with those people???? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[sleepdeprived]

I have a good media contact but I need to know the facts of exactly who is responsible for dumping the donated goods. I don't want to lay blame on the ASPCA for instance, if it's the HSUS.

[NMS]

I wrote to the HSUS demandng an explanation. I sent them a donation. To me throwing these items out is like throwing out my dollars. I sure hope someone writes back.

Nancy

[nettiemaria]

This is bull. I sent in money, and you know, I could have used that money to buy some more cat carriers, like the ones that they are throwing away.

[J Swan]

A hurricane is about to hit Texas and those carriers could be used there - how about setting up shelters there BEFORE the storm hits to receive and transport animals immediately?????? Apparantly animals can be taken to shelters IF THEY HAVE A CARRIER. How many animals will suffer and die because carriers are in a dump in Louisiana?

This isn't rocket science - it's called PLANNING. Hurricanes give plenty of warning before they hit and these groups should be spending their millions more wisely instead of spouting off on the Today show.

This is why I give my money only to local charities - they are more accountable.

[karassa]

When I first read this, I was just as appalled and infuriated.

However, re-reading this thread brought up a question for me.

Cleaning those at the very least requires *NON* contaminated water. I was under the impression that clean water was in short supply in the area. Could this perhaps be the cause of the waste?

It's true that even if this is the case, that it could have been handled *SO* much better than just throwing them away; they could have been put somewhere to be cleaned later and distributed to animal shelters or people who need them, etc.

[Erin]

Of course the media would touch this... HSUS and ASPCA have been widely advertised as places to donate.

Although, I am not totally sure if donations to either of those groups would be used to actually *purchase* crates and such. Petsmart in particular has a charity arm that donates food and supplies in a disaster (and it's a much more effective use of funds to have goods donated than to buy them at retail anyway), so the crates could very well have been free, and there could very well be enough of them donated that they don't need to be washed out and reused.

It's wasteful, yes. And I have no idea if it's actually the case that the crates were donated and there's a limitless supply. Just pointing out that it's a possibility.

[J Swan]

Even if the crates were donated (and I agree that it is a strong possibility) - it's a crying shame.
Another hurricane is about to hit Texas - and probably flood New Orleans again.

You know - If the only way I could get my pet out was to put it in a crate, and I didn't have one - I'd take a dirty one in a heartbeat. I'd clean it with my own spit if I had to.

What matters is getting the job done.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by karassa:
&lt;SNIP&gt;

Cleaning those at the very least requires *NON* contaminated water. I was under the impression that clean water was in short supply in the area. Could this perhaps be the cause of the waste?

&lt;SNIP&gt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't believe it is a problem in Baton Rouge

[hippofile]

I haven't looked at the pictures yet, but one thing came to mind. I don't know how it is for all Humane Societies and SPCA chapters, but many of them are not no-kill shelters.

For example, my local SPCA euthanizes nearly all feral or semi-feral animals, plus ones that are not immediately adopted. Practically if they have a scratch on the nose they're slated for death. Of course there are many opinions on the issue, but I wanted to raise it just because I've talked to many people who were not aware that their donations were going to support the killing of animals and would not have donated in that case. So, just another thing to think about. (Also, please don't assume that I'm bashing all SPCAs because there are so many out there that don't euthanize and are really wonderful.)

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Swan:
Even if the crates were donated (and I agree that it is a strong possibility) - it's a crying shame.
Another hurricane is about to hit Texas - and probably flood New Orleans again.

You know - If the only way I could get my pet out was to put it in a crate, and I didn't have one - I'd take a dirty one in a heartbeat. I'd clean it with my own spit if I had to.

What matters is getting the job done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but do the people rescuing animals and caring for the ones who have BEEN rescued have time to collect them and arrange for transport to different areas and all that? I get the impression that folks down there are overwhelmed as it is...

I *hate* the thought of all those crates actually being thrown away, even if they were free (I'm a recycling/Freecycling nazi http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), but when time and resources are limited, well, I'd rather they be spent saving animals than keeping crates out of a landfill.

Anyway, I do hope someone can point the media in the right direction, because obviously more information is needed.

[poltroon]

There's a snippet in Newsweek about Petsmart attempting to deliver crates ordered by FEMA and getting jerked around royally with them changing the order, cancelling it, reinstating it, cancelling it, demanding it, and then finally refusing to accept the shipment.

Putting crates in a dumpster is not efficient in any way. If cleaning them is a problem, you have a truck/dumpster devoted to dirty crates and you swap 'em out for clean crates while those are being cleaned and/or distributed out of the affected area. These are expensive items and I'm sure that many other rescue groups in the area could use them.

PS: if you want the media to pick it up, post it with documentation on DailyKOS (http://www.dailykos.com/).

[J Swan]

That's also a good point, it's not like folks are down there on vacation -

I just know there has to be a better way. I have a great deal of experience in moving large volumes of "stuff" (Army) and I can tell you that there are people in the world that prefer to make a problem go away than do a bit of extra brainwork to figure out a solution.

Some folks see the big picture and some don't. Unfortunatly, the ones who don't see the big picture are often the decision makers.

I would be very interested to know more.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Swan:
Even if the crates were donated (and I agree that it is a strong possibility) - it's a crying shame.
Another hurricane is about to hit Texas - and probably flood New Orleans again.

You know - If the only way I could get my pet out was to put it in a crate, and I didn't have one - I'd take a dirty one in a heartbeat. I'd clean it with my own spit if I had to.

What matters is getting the job done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but do the people rescuing animals and caring for the ones who have BEEN rescued have time to collect them and arrange for transport to different areas and all that? I get the impression that folks down there are overwhelmed as it is...

I *hate* the thought of all those crates actually being thrown away, even if they were free (I'm a recycling/Freecycling nazi http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), but when time and resources are limited, well, I'd rather they be spent saving animals than keeping crates out of a landfill.

Anyway, I do hope someone can point the media in the right direction, because obviously more information is needed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but evidently there is still a great need for crates. Are they throwing them out because they don't need them any more or because they don't want to wash them?

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Swan:
That's also a good point, it's not like folks are down there on vacation -

I just know there has to be a better way. I have a great deal of experience in moving large volumes of "stuff" (Army) and I can tell you that there are people in the world that prefer to make a problem go away than do a bit of extra brainwork to figure out a solution.

Some folks see the big picture and some don't. Unfortunatly, the ones who don't see the big picture are often the decision makers.

I would be very interested to know more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely... and I'd love to know more, too.

Maybe in the future this problem could be addressed in a better way. But this is certainly the largest-scale animal rescue operation I've EVER heard of in this country, so I'm willing to cut them a little slack here until we know more. I doubt any of the rescue groups of any kind had a plan already in place for what to do with several thousand used crates...

I'm surprised to hear FEMA had anything to do with the pet rescue situation at all. (Not surprised to hear that they bungled it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

On a semi-related, positive note... I saw something in a news article earlier today that people in Texas (Galveston, perhaps?) are being allowed into evacuation shelters with pets in crates. Officials are definitey learning SOME lessons from Katrina, and realized that they could get more people to evacuate if they allowed pets to come along. This is a VERY GOOD thing, and I hope it will be more widely implemented in the future.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:
Yes, but evidently there is still a great need for crates. Are they throwing them out because they don't need them any more or because they don't want to wash them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the OP said it was because they didn't want to wash them.

I'm simply being a devil's advocate and pointing out that IF they have plenty of crates on hand, it is not necessarily a good use of human resources to spend time washing out crates.

And, as I said, no one knows for sure yet, which is why more information is needed.

I'm well aware that you want any possible opening to skewer HSUS and/or ASPCA, but perhaps it might be better to wait for the facts to come in on this one before playing judge and jury...

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Cleaning those at the very least requires *NON* contaminated water. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It requires less than 30 seconds to spritz a crate with the same veterinary cleanser used to clean exam tables between appointments. Then let sit for 30 minutes to air dry.

A very, very small amount of water will disinfect a *lot* of crates in this way.

(I know this from personal experience. I bought a tiny bottle of the disinfectant from my avian vet probably 10 years ago. I've used it many, many times to disinfect cages and crates, according to the directions on the bottle.)

[luvmytbs]

One of the problems IMO is that we live in a "throw-away" society.
Unfortunately that is being handed down to younger generations.

[sleepdeprived]

Another point is that with the millions of dollars donated, HSUS or whomever, could certainly afford to hire someone locally to sanitize them, and/or hire a semi to haul the excess cages and food to a rented storage space. Or, organize to ship it else where, like Texas, where it might be needed. And a big warehouse at that. The next time (in about 24 hours perhaps?) there is a need they'll be ready without having to get more.

I know my mother and sister, both of whom lived on fixed incomes, sent in their $25 donations which they could ill afford to do, to take care of the pets. If they were to see the food and cages being thrown away they'd be ill.

This is a story that needs to be told, as well as the waste going on with the Red Cross. Though what will likely happen is the organization responsible will blame the guys on the truck. Renegades no doubt. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:I'm well aware that you want any possible opening to skewer HSUS and/or ASPCA, but perhaps it might be better to wait for the facts to come in on this one before playing judge and jury... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems that that was uncalled for from a moderator.

[Ghazzu]

FEMA just paid to have ice that was trucked to LA trucked *back* to Massachusetts for storage.

Certainly one would thing they could find water and sanitizer suitable for cleaning crates.

However, if you look at the photos, you can see that, as the caption says, some look as though they've never been assembled--the hardware is still in little plastic bags.

[HeyYouNags]

Are they having animal disease outbreaks? If so, sanitizing or disinfecting crates may not be that easy.

And it's not like there would be loads of empty, conveniently located warehouses to ship stuff to. Someone would have to find a warehouse (a volunteer with expertise in storage issues?), find an otherwise available trucking company, and pay the trucker and the warehouse.

If the crates were donated to begin with, and new ones are available, it may be cheaper and easier just to throw them away.

I agree, it sounds horribly wasteful to just throw out the crates, but the working conditions aren't exactly conducive to recycling.

[mairzeadoats]

When I wasn't able to ship my crates and cages, I donated to la-spca. I've just written to their president about this.

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are they having animal disease outbreaks? If so, sanitizing or disinfecting crates may not be that easy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's very easy. The same disinfectant spray they use to prevent diseases from spreading in veterinary exam rooms.

[MHM]

Hey Mairzedoats-

Do you have the contact info for the LA-SPCA president handy? Care to post it?

Thanks!

[carolprudm]

Maybe they can just haul the dumpsters to San Antonio.

[HeyYouNags]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's very easy. The same disinfectant spray they use to prevent diseases from spreading in veterinary exam rooms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, mairzedoats, it's not that easy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[mairzeadoats]

MHM, from their website contact info: Laura@la-spca.org

Heyyounags, guess is depends on what you consider hard work! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MHM]

Thanks, Mairzeadoats!

I also sent them money, and this does not sound like a good system to me. Maybe there's a reasonable explanation for it, but I'd certainly like to know what it is before I make another donation!

[mairzeadoats]

Don't rush to thank me (or write them.) My email just got returned...and I sent it right from their site. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:I'm well aware that you want any possible opening to skewer HSUS and/or ASPCA, but perhaps it might be better to wait for the facts to come in on this one before playing judge and jury... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems that that was uncalled for from a moderator. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really, she just remembers the recent triads against them here...I don't beleive any of us should judge anything until we have facts. I, too, would rather their efforts go to saving the animals they have now than to washing crates. Think of the potential for spread of disease, if, for instance, someone didn't disinfect as protocal calls for?

...and mairzedotes, perhaps their mailbox is filled to capacity....

[OldLadyOnATB]

OK...to answer some questions....and bring to mind new ones.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Water, electricity and manpower are not in short supply here. There are so many people around the animal shelter that is amazing there is any room to park. It seems that the HSUS and the ASPCA would both like to be in charge and of course....no one appears to be in charge. I asked the guys in the truck actually doing the "trashing" and one of the barn managers in a small animal barn (barn 5), who gave the order to throw all the stuff away. No one could give me an answer. If I could find the person in charge, I would ask.

To date there have been no outbreaks of disease that I am aware of. The US Health Department is here in full force. They are checking everything within their jurisdiction. Two nights ago, the ASPCA/HSUS put rabbits, ferrits and other small animals in the women's bathroom. The Department of Public Health found out about it and rushed in on them like a commando squad. They not only had to remove the small animals, but they had to scrub the bathroom walls and floor with clorox. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif After a while, you just have to laugh. Spending an evening next door to these folks is better than watching old re-runs of Saturday Night Live.

The ASPCA/HSUS is washing some crates but the ones they don't get to go in the dumpster. One person told me the crates he was throwing away had rust on them. I asked if I could take one home that he had planned on putting in the dumpster and he said it was ok. I picked up a wire crate....it was still in the box. When I inquired as to why the brand new ones were going out, he said he didn't know. He was just told to do it.

The same goes for dog food. The other day they were thowing out bags of dog food because it "might" and if it does the dog food would get wet. If the bags got wet and fell open....well then, they might have to clean up some dog food.....it was better just to throw it away.

As for the supplies available...tractor trailer loads of stuff have been coming in every day. They are bringing food, crates, bowls, collars, leashes, toys and medical supplies. There is nothing in short supply here....food and water for humans is plentiful too. When someone comes to pick up their horse(s) we send them off with hay and feed and a bucket full of new stuff like brushes, halter and leadrope, shampoo, hoof picks, hay nets, fly spray, wound ointment, etc. These "kits" have been put together by our volunteers from stuff donated to the effort. We throw out VERY few things...we are grateful to get the things we have.

Needless to say, there is a completely different mindset in the horse barn. It is truly a labor of love. No one is in this for money or fame or donations. Understand that except for Dr. French and his staff of folks from LSU, the rest of us are UNPAID volunteers. The HSUS and ASPCA folks are getting paid (from what I was told). We are there because we want to be there and want to make sure the horses are cared for and reunited with their owners. The donations made to LSU help to provide medical treatment and a few supplies but the vast majority of stuff we have is donated....not purchased.

Take it for what it is...unorganized and wasteful. What can be done about it now? Probably nothing. This whole effort is now nearly a month old. Hurricane Katrina has taught me so many things....the least of which is how unprepared we are when we think we are prepared. I have also come to realize that very little of what the media has printed and shown about the aftermath of this storm is true. As a matter of fact...some of it is blatant lies. I have also learned that there are some really good people out there. The volunteers at the small animal barns are as outraged and disappointed as I am...but they keep coming back....it's all for the animals.

Elizabeth

[J Swan]

Well, I'm one of the ones who complained about them and I still think that thowing away new and barely used crates is unacceptable. I don't care if HSUS or Jesus did it. And I'm really not interested in hearing excuses for it - nor would I accept excuses for the waste of resources to help human victims.

It's still unacceptable when people who can barely afford to feed themselves respond to pleas for money only to find out it's been squandered.

And with another disaster on the way - it's even more criminal.

I've appreciated hearing from the OP on efforts to help the animals - and I appreciate her bringing this to our attention. Regardless of who is responsible - it ain't right.

And to ask donors to give money for crates, then throw them away, smacks of fraudulent solicitation.

[Erin]

Geez, J Swan, you were sounding so sensible for a while there...

How do you have any idea who paid for the crates, if they were paid for at all?

carolprudm, on the contrary, it's *exactly* because I'm a moderator that I should be telling people to cool it on the witch hunt when the facts aren't known. Probably also helps that I'm a journalist and I like to hear confirmed facts... not criticizing OldLadyOnATB at all, obviously she is just passing along what she saw, for what it's worth.

I'll go along with disorganized and wasteful (which is not exactly unusual, or even unexpected during a crisis like this). But fraudulent solicitiation? Come on already.

[clearound]

Speaking of the HSUS...has anyone who ordered the dog collars actually received them. I ordered them two weeks ago and have not received them as yet. I know they are busy so I was just wondering.

[MHM]

My email to the LA SPCA got bounced back as well.

OLoaTB- thanks again for the updates. I'm glad to know that at least the donation I sent to LSU is being put to better use!

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I am the OP of the dog collar thread - I have not yet received my collar, either.
I'm not gonna piss & moan about misuse of funds or equipment...I'm just glad they have been able to rescue so many small animals. And let's remember...the numbers are waaaay greater than the number of horses taken in.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
&lt;SNIP&gt;


carolprudm, on the contrary, it's *exactly* because I'm a moderator that I should be telling people to cool it on the witch hunt when the facts aren't known. Probably also helps that I'm a journalist and I like to hear confirmed facts... not criticizing OldLadyOnATB at all, obviously she is just passing along what she saw, for what it's worth.

I'll go along with disorganized and wasteful (which is not exactly unusual, or even unexpected during a crisis like this). But fraudulent solicitiation? Come on already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I NEVER said they were soliciting funds fraudulently.
I pointed out, for example that their website is collecting money for Katrina and OTHER disasters. IOW, money that you send to HSUS might not go to Katrina (or Rita) relief. I did say that they spent little of the money that they collect on direct relief for animals and that people would get more "bang for their buck" by giving to other organizations such as LSU Vet school and I did provide a vebsite where people could verify the information. I also reminded people that HSUS tried to eliminate Eventing from the Olympics.

[clearound]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seahorsefarmtobe:
I am the OP of the dog collar thread - I have not yet received my collar, either.
I'm not gonna piss & moan about misuse of funds or equipment.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you didn't think I was implying anything like that with respect to the money paid for the dog collars. I was happy to make the donation and get the collars as a bonus. I was just wondering because I am sure that they are overwhelmed with taking care of the animals and such.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifWhat the hell does eliminating eventing from the olympics have to do with anything? As a humane society, I guess they view it as unhumane - and let's face it, at that level it ain't a ride in the park. But neither are the other disciplines from hunter to barrels to dressage. Whole 'nother topic...

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

oh no, clearound - I didn't - I was referring to JSwan and carolprudm's POV on this whole subject. My dog will proudly wear hers - it is the first "donation" of her own! BTW, clearound, William has some scope, huh? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seahorsefarmtobe:
&lt;SNIP&gt;
And let's remember...the numbers are waaaay greater than the number of horses taken in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well yeah, there are more dogs and cats TO rescue.
And I mentioned HSUS's attempt to ban Eventing as an example of their political agenda. FWIW I also pointed out that they promote veganism.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

that was my point, there are just so damn many to rescue...

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seahorsefarmtobe:
that was my point, there are just so damn many to rescue... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LSU is also rescuing pets

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

so are many other people, including individuals!

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:

I NEVER said they were soliciting funds fraudulently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I never said you did. Since J Swan's post was about 2 up, I kind of figured most people's attention spans were long enough that they'd know who I was referring to.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I pointed out, for example that their website is collecting money for Katrina and OTHER disasters. IOW, money that you send to HSUS might not go to Katrina (or Rita) relief. I did say that they spent little of the money that they collect on direct relief for animals and that people would get more "bang for their buck" by giving to other organizations such as LSU Vet school and I did provide a vebsite where people could verify the information. I also reminded people that HSUS tried to eliminate Eventing from the Olympics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, yeah, you did. On every single cotton-picking thread that ever even mentioned HSUS. And despite being told at least half a dozen times that people "get it," you are still whacking away at that dead horse, aren't you? Even on a thread that has NOTHING to do with HSUS's political aims, but rather what they did or didn't do with a bunch of dog crates. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

All I said was that it might behoove reasonable people to wait and get a little more information before they jump to a verdict. Now, if that "reasonable" description doesn't apply to you, by all means, carry on.

[xeroxchick]

Hey Swan - keep fighting the good fight. I, for one, agree 100%.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:

I NEVER said they were soliciting funds fraudulently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I never said you did. Since J Swan's post was about 2 up, I kind of figured most people's attention spans were long enough that they'd know who I was referring to.&lt;SNIP&gt;
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You refered to her by name.
Then you refered to me by name.
Then you refered to fraudulent solicitation. Please forgive me for not realizing that you were not refering to me.

[vineyridge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are none so blind as those who will not see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin, on this we have to disagree. Both HSUS and ASPCA are prime federal contractors to handle the organization of animal handling during disasters. If the two of them are so badly organized that they spend more time fighting over who is charge and wasting donations that could be used for another looming disaster (let's just say "Rita")for which they will again be designated by FEMA as prime contractors, how seriously do you think people should take the bound to come, post Rita pleas for donations?

If you didn't already know from reading Guidestar and their tax returns, they received over half a million dollars in government grants in 2003. I'm sure a significant part of that was for disaster planning and relief.

You think HSUS is a worthy donation recipient. Just remember that every dollar that goes into their disaster pocket frees up a dollar (mostly in publicity and administration) for their animal <span class="ev_code_RED">RIGHTS</span> agenda.

I'm sorry, but there is just no excuse for throwing away usable items, even if donated, when Rita is and has been on the horizon.

[BLBGP]

I can back Old Lady - the politics going on at Lamar-Dixon are out of control and no one is truly in charge right now. There's a lot of positioning for perceived power but no one truly getting their hands dirty and making it work. There's a lot worse going on than simply throwing away new crates. Hopefully this will change soon and HSUS will be removed from any position of authority, but while there's still a chance for good media that will be very difficult. Unfortunately, right now, it's all about politics.

LA-SPCA was in charge, but was pushed out of Lamar-Dixon by the nationals. They're still a great option for donations as they are in NOLA rescuing animals still and will need to eventually rebuild their shelter in New Orleans. Laura Maloney is a very good leader there.

[BLBGP]

p.s. - I looked at the photos and those crates all look pretty darn clean. However, here's my "benefit of the doubt" on the crate issue: there's a lot of ringworm on the dogs coming out of that area and perhaps they're playing it safe and trying not to let that spread. I can't attempt to justify a single other thing happening there, though.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Erin]

viney, I know plenty about HSUS's agenda, and their financials, and you're right, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate. I can see there being reasonable-ish explanations for the crate thing, and even though I don't like the wastefulness of it, I'm willing to reserve judgment and not cry "fraudulent solicitation" without knowing the details.

What I find objectionable is the fact that every time the organization comes up, a certain core group of people pull out the same song and dance... again, and again, and again. This thread is not about HSUS's political agenda, and whether or not they promote veganism (who the hell cares) or campaigned against eventing has exactly ZIP to do with how they use their donations. carolprudm is just using this discussion as another opportunity to pull out her soapbox and complain about their agenda. And it's getting very tiresome.

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:

What I find objectionable is the fact that every time the organization comes up, a certain core group of people pull out the same song and dance... again, and again, and again. This thread is not about HSUS's political agenda, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin, I agree so strongly with most of what you write, and whether or not I do agree with you I love reading your posts, yet I disagree with you on this one. I don't find this objectionable at all. In fact, I LIKE that people are on the ball in making others aware of what HSUS(for example)is up to. Some of us read all the threads and some of us don't, plus new people are probably tuning in all the time, so the information is good, and it's important. Keep it up, HSUS watchers!

As a horse, hound, cat, and fish owner, HSUS' political agenda is EXTREMELY important to me.

I remember reading reports from people who watched them when the Mississippi floods came a few years ago - the rescuers there said HSUS flew in wearing their HSUS outfits, took loads of video, got lots of media attention, and LEFT, never doing one bit of hands-on rescue but boy, did they shill for donations. I think the publicity of that nonsense among animal people is perhaps what helped spur them to actually get some work done in crises since then.

[J Swan]

Geez - take some pain meds for my neck and wake up to find I'm not as sensible as I thought I was.

I'll put this a different way so I don't lose what little credibility I have left.

"They" and I mean contractors, charitable or otherwise, human oriented or otherwise, are supposed to know what they are doing. They hold themselves out to be experts. They have plans. Training. Contracts. They get on tv and say "I'm in charge". They "KNOW" what to do.

When "they" hold themselves out to be the experts - I expect them to live up to it! Pure and simple!

The US gov't is burning food supplies from the UK for no reason. Elected officials sob hysterically instead of girding their loins and acting like they have a pair. Turf wars. Politics. Federal vs. State. Halliburton. Crates in dumpsters. Appeals for crates. Dog food being thrown out. Animals can go in shelters. Animals can't go in shelters. Animals shot. Military can't help animals. Military can help animals. Debit cards for evacuees. No debit cards for evacuees. Kids screaming as their animals are torn from their arms.

It's Abbott and Costello. Who's on first?

Any thinking person has got to be upset by those photos. And when any organization (in this case it appears at first blush to be HSUS/ASPCA) holds themselves out to be competent, to know what to do, when to do it, how to consensus build, and we see flaws - yep - you betcha - I'm going to harumph and call them on it.

Not to negate any good they might have done - but to insist that in the US - we can do better. And I think we can.

[SimplySarah]

HSUS left a foul taste in my mouth years ago (and still continue to do so through my local, embezzeling, scamming chapter), and this sort of wastefulness does nothing to abate it.

No matter HOW I look at it, I just can't find a way to justify that sort of wastefulness. And it's not just crates-- from what the OP experienced first hand, it's bags and bags of dogfood as well.
I don't get the fact that in those pics there were cages with the hardware still attached in it's bags, unused.

[Erin]

SimplySarah, you realize that THE HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) doesn't have any chapters, right? Local humane societies and SPCAs are not affiliated with HSUS or ASPCA. They just have similar names.

Anne, believe me, I am all for making sure people are informed and know who they're giving money to. No one should donate to any group without realizing what they're getting into.

But it *is* tiresome when the same group of people piles on every time the organization is mentioned in any sort of way, and as is obvious from this thread, it completely derails the topic and it winds up being yet another "you shouldn't give them money and here's why" thread. And suddenly we're not talking about the wastefullness anymore, we're back to talking about Guidestar and spay/neuter and whatever else.

Absolutely, people should raise a stink about this and see what the story is. Absolutely, it could have been handled better. So why don't we discuss *that* instead of going around in the same stupid circles we went around in a week ago?

[SimplySarah]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SimplySarah, you realize that THE HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) doesn't have any chapters, right? Local humane societies and SPCAs are not affiliated with HSUS or ASPCA. They just have similar names.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The entire situation was quite long and drawn out, with lots of corruption, so I'm not going to get into all of the details. I will say that the HSUS WAS involved directly. It was, and continues to be, a very ugly situation.

[mairzeadoats]

"LA-SPCA was in charge, but was pushed out of Lamar-Dixon by the nationals. They're still a great option for donations as they are in NOLA rescuing animals still and will need to eventually rebuild their shelter in New Orleans. Laura Maloney is a very good leader there."

Thank you for this info. That is where I sent my money and I'd like to think, having been unemployed for nearly 4 years, living off what was supposed to be my retirement fund while trying to start over, that the little I could contribute was NOT thrown away.

J Swan, I'm with you. There are still dogs starving in the streets in NO. Ringworm is the least of their problems. They're afraid the dog food might get wet? Go put it into feeding stations so the loose dogs have half a chance.

They're afraid the crates have ringworm? I brought my puppy home last winter with 4 different gut worms, giardia, ringworm and food allergies. All fixed within a few weeks. That's part of what rescuing is about...

[vineyridge]

One of the things that HSUS does is train shelter managers all over the country. I noticed that Memphis had hired an HSUS employee to be the director of their local government funded shelter.

HSUS may do their shelter management training well; if so, I give them credit for their achievements. I also worry when animal rights advocates are placed in legitimate government positions where they can advocate their beliefs with presumed credibility.

As to wastefulness, Memphis, of all places, can't afford waste in their animal programs. One can only hope that aspect of HSUS hasn't been trained into their employees. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[OldLadyOnATB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLBGP:
p.s. - I looked at the photos and those crates all look pretty darn clean. However, here's my "benefit of the doubt" on the crate issue: there's a lot of ringworm on the dogs coming out of that area and perhaps they're playing it safe and trying not to let that spread. I can't attempt to justify a single other thing happening there, though.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I brought home 5 crates tonight that were slated for the dumpster. They were large veri kennels. The were big enough for a lab or golden. The were on the back of another truck full of crates being tossed into the dumpster. They were new with the tags still on. The had never even been put together.

Anyone need a crate?

Elizabeth

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldLadyOnATB:

Anyone need a crate?

Elizabeth </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah!
The animals that need to be rescued after Rita.

This is insane!

[carolprudm]

Everything, with the exception of its opposition to the Three Day Event at the Athens Olympics, I have stated as fact concerning the HSUS can be proved, in most cases from a close examination of its own website.

For example if you look at its home page
http://hsus.org/home.html
you will see appeals for money and discussions of its various legislative and social oncerns. There is little direct involvement with animals. What they do the most of, they do best.

You can also see their 2003 IRS form 990. The 2004 information is available in a slightly more readable format on

http://give.org/reports/report.aspx?ID=226&ReportType=1 (http://give.org/reports/report.aspx?ID=226&amp;ReportType=1) It shows that much of the money collected goes to administrative and membership expenses and that they have net assets of over $100 MILLION.

If you go back to Hsus.org you will find a link to donate to disaster relief. If you notice "Yes! I want to help animals affected by Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita, and OTHER disasters". IOW money you donate will not necessarily go to hurricane relief but may be held in reserve.

If you look here

http://www.surveymonkey.com/Users/74623895/Surveys/4014...O_NOT_COPY_THIS_LINK (http://www.surveymonkey.com/Users/74623895/Surveys/40141344324/ABAF296E-3696-4E1B-BBC8-E1A32BD6319E.asp?U=40141344324&amp;DO_NOT_COPY_THIS_LI NK)
you will see how what HSUS requires of its volunteers and what support it gives them.

In general money donated to local groups is spent more effectivly than money given to national groups. They have less overhead, no $300,000+ CEO.
Think of it this way, if you stub your toe you don't put ice on your knee.

[NMS]

Well, it's been 24 hours and they still haven't provided an explanation to me via e-mail. Just a one liner would do.

Nancy

[June]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J Swan:
Geez - take some pain meds for my neck and wake up to find I'm not as sensible as I thought I was.

I'll put this a different way so I don't lose what little credibility I have left.

"They" and I mean contractors, charitable or otherwise, human oriented or otherwise, are supposed to know what they are doing. They hold themselves out to be experts. They have plans. Training. Contracts. They get on tv and say "I'm in charge". They "KNOW" what to do.

When "they" hold themselves out to be the experts - I expect them to live up to it! Pure and simple!

The US gov't is burning food supplies from the UK for no reason."

Hi JS,

I enjoy your posts and remember how helpful to me you were regarding whips on the Hunting Forum. I only wanted to comment on your quote regarding burning food supplies from the UK "for no reason". There is a reason. BSE. Please don't ask me to defend the reason; it is regulatory and has to do with perceived risk and has been in place for many years. If tins of minced meat were part of food rations generously donated by UK, they must be destroyed. That whole concern is not appropriate for these boards and I'll answer a private query. I just wished to say, for that particular citation, there is a justifiable (in my experience)reason. Carry on.

Prayer Continues,
June

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldLadyOnATB:

Anyone need a crate?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I need crates. It'd probably be cost effective to ship a bunch of them up here. I can always use some and give others to people who can't afford them and then they'd be ready for their own evacuations. We're within 10 miles of TMI here and yes, people are supposed to have a plan.

You can see in the photos that the plastic bag of the screws is still there for these brand new crates.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif Just how dead can a dead horse be beaten?

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:
Everything, with the exception of its opposition to the Three Day Event at the Athens Olympics, I have stated as fact concerning the HSUS can be proved, in most cases from a close examination of its own website. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And absolutely NO ONE ever said it couldn't be proved, carol.

The point is that it simply isn't germaine to this thread, IMO. Not that that will stop you, of course... but I'm just pointing out the obvious.

[J Swan]

June - I thought about BSE too - but Gawd almighty why accept it in the first place? Seems like if BSE was a concern the US gov't would have told the UK gov't, thanks but no thanks. And besides - US troops in Iraq sometimes get those rations. If it's ok for our troops to eat UK military rations - why not citizens?

Instead it actually made its way to New Orleans.

Very annoying.

I know I'm glossing over all the complexities of international relief efforts - perhaps it's my obsessive compulsive side showing but I'd think we could be just a wee bit more organized. Hurricanes are a yearly occurence.

A rescue group I've worked with just sent me several emails asking for crates - as they are heading down there. Maybe I should tell them to search the landfill?

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

...and we're off...into political neverneverland...

[J Swan]

I was responding to June's post - not getting into politics.

I think all these relief efforts have a lot in common, meaning that a lot of good has been done, many mistakes have been made, and that we can do better.

The lack of communication for human and animal relief is unacceptable given our knowledge of meterology, methods of communication, and national wealth.

Perhaps the moderators should no longer permit discussions about animals in disasters if folks can't take critcism of their favorite charities. And indeed; we still don't know who is responsible for the fiasco evidenced in the OP's photographs. But I bet ten bucks it ain't the NRA.

[June]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Swan:
I was responding to June's post - not getting into politics.

I think all these relief efforts have a lot in common, meaning that a lot of good has been done, many mistakes have been made, and that we can do better.

The lack of communication for human and animal relief is unacceptable given our knowledge of meterology, methods of communication, and national wealth.

Perhaps the moderators should no longer permit discussions about animals in disasters if folks can't take critcism of their favorite charities. And indeed; we still don't know who is responsible for the fiasco evidenced in the OP's photographs. But I bet ten bucks it ain't the NRA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seahorsefarmtobe,

I echo what JSwan shared, she &lt;was&gt; responding to me. In regard to rations from UK, I'll take my best guess. The rations may have made their way here among other shipments of supplies and not have been examined for contents until they arrived. Do we know for sure they were destroyed in affected areas (gulf states), or were they destroyed at their port of entry? Regarding the rations from UK distributed to US forces, I have no information so can't comment. Without being pugnacious at all, I'd welcome more information regarding that.

Kind Regards and Prayer Continues,
June

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Swan:
I think all these relief efforts have a lot in common, meaning that a lot of good has been done, many mistakes have been made, and that we can do better.
The lack of communication for human and animal relief is unacceptable given our knowledge of meterology, methods of communication, and national wealth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
FINALLY, something we can agree on. I support my LOCAL humane society and, of course, the horse rescue, but when Katrina hit, the HSUS was the main one (in the press) helping small animals, so that is why I ever mentioned it in the first place. I have no prior knowledge of their finances, but they were the immediate responders, so that is why I mentioned it. Is there waste and disorganization? Sure. But why kick a man while he's down? At least they were THERE. OLOATB's observations were disheartening, on face value, but look, the USHS HAS SAVED ANIMALS! Period. So have many others. I begrudge them nothing. Let's wait until it all unfolds - after the immediate threat of disaster has passed - then pass judgement. How many animals would NOT HAVE BEEN SAVED if not for the HSUS and other orgs? That is the bottom line, IMO.

[June]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but when Katrina hit, the HSUS was the main one (in the press) helping small animals </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, they sure were, in the press.

Prayer Continues,
June

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

oh for gawd's sake...i give up...i guess all the animals they DID rescue were just accidental?

[lynntelaak]

BSE is the reason the British MREs are not being used. The importation regulations prohibit acceptance of british meat products. One comment I read was to the effect that we will not distribute food to refugees that would not be meet the regulations for anyone else. They have distributed the products that did not contain meat.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

lemme ask this: why should the US have to depend on foreigh food to feed our own evacuees? Oops! Now I've opened a floodgate...no pun intended.

[nettiemaria]

Did ANYONE ever hear back from the Humane Society as to why they were throwing away the crates?

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

i think they're probably to busy to respond the emails

[poltroon]

That they have rescued animals is undeniable, and I salute them for that.

However, in an environment where at least a dozen separate organizations are soliciting for funds to rescue animals (not to mention the ones who are helping without any particular campaign), it matters to me how many they can save for how many $$. Not because I am stingy or heartless - but because with so many animals needing help, I would rather my money go to an organization that can rescue 20 animals for $1000 instead of 2.

Each effort has a sweet spot for size, where they have enough cash to do what they do best but no more.

[J Swan]

The US isn't depending upon foreign countries to feed our people. The US accepted a gift from a country that has been our staunchest ally for over 150 years, and that we saved from devastation in two World Wars. If we can't utilize all the rations due to health concerns, that's ok but you smile and say thank you for helping. Like we did when they sent over search and rescue teams on 9-11. Like the NATO allies that helped my mother get to safety before she burned to death in the Pentagon.

ASPCA hasn't answered my email either - perhaps eventually they will.

seahorsefarmstobe - since you are such an advocate for the HSUS/ASPCA, and you are obviously involved in animal rescue more directly than I am, why not contact your people and make something happen? Like getting those crates to Texas? Or even assemble them for New Orleans - as that city is flooding again. Or if there is such a surplus, making sure no more crates are donated?

[OldLadyOnATB]

The evacuees at the Lamar Dixon shelter are being fed by local churches and civic groups. They also fix enough for the volunteers in the animal barns. It is usually pretty good.

The oraganization that FIRST went in to New Orleans was the Louisiana SPCA. The humane Society and ASPCA didn't arrive until nearly 2 weeks into the whole rescue thing. Since then, the LA SPCA has been ousted and things have slowly gone downhill. Every night more and more rescued dogs and cats come into Lamar Dixon. They are being rounded up by individual rescue groups and individuals....the ASPCA and HSUS has apparently given them "clearance" to rescue. I haven't seen the first HSUS *official* vehicle bring in an animal. It may have happened but it was rare enough that those around never saw it.

Yetserday while we were prepapring the horses and barns for the arrival of Rita, the small animal people were *business as usuall*. They also built a wall around barn 5 using cases of canned Science Diet i/d dog food. Seems as thought they were trying to build a levy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

They had a special meeting last night to plan their next course of action (with the new storm, etc). By the time they had a plan, we were done with our preparations. All we had to do was move the carriage horses to the interior of the barn...we did that today.

BTW...I was kidding about the crates...I do have them, but my friends and neighbors were grateful to get them.

Elizabeth

[BasqueMom]

Ifit's in a dumpster, it's fair game! My local
humane society is setting up a shelter for animals for the folks coming to the Red Cross's
shelter and crates are at a premium. Our group
is strictly a foster home shelter. What we could do with a couple dumpster loads would be awesome!

[vineyridge]

Story in today's Clarion Ledger about the HSUS led shelter in Hattiesburg. They have already made plans to ship all of the animals that aren't claimed by next Friday to Missouri for adoption.

Of course, in order to find out if your animal is at the shelter, you have to appear in person, since the facility does not take phone calls. This information comes from an HSUS press release.

So if you evacuated to Georgia or just about anywhere out of driving distance of Hattiesburg and haven't come back because you haven't anything left but a foundation slab, you can't call to see if the trip is worthwhile. And your dog or cat will be shipped out of state to a new home next week.

From the petfinders website, it looks like Lamar Dixon is already shipping small animals far away from Louisiana. Looks like the "nationals" have given up on reuniting pets with their real owners.

New Orleans is still closed to its residents. People are homeless. Now their pets have been stolen by idiotic bureaucrats in charitable disguises.

Thanks, guys, for your "help".

[elizabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">New Orleans is still closed to its residents. People are homeless. Now their pets have been stolen by idiotic bureaucrats in charitable disguises. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Viney, I spent several days in N.O. rescuing pets, and I *originally* felt like you did.

Then I saw how completely unfixable many (most?) of the houses down there were. The people who lived in those houses are MONTHS, if not YEARS away from having a home again. I decided then that many of the animals deserved new homes, as opposed to having to wait for their owners to perhaps never return. Also, I rescued many dogs that were loose in backyards. I suspect some of their owners were dead in their houses. Better to let those dogs get adopted forthwith. Lastly, almost ALL of these pets were not fixed. You know something - if you are going to NOT fix your dog, I feel very little remorse about your not having a dog. That is JMHO -- just mine.

As to HUS and LASPCA, they are a CLUSTER F*CK. Sorry to have to use that phrase, but I have NEVER, EVER seen anything like that. EVER. The LASPCA spent an hour - AN HOUR - yelling at the rescue group I worked with about their "control" over the area we were trying to rescue in. We had *30* volunteers with cars and crates ready to go. And they held us up because we were going into *their* parish. Ladies, it is day 22 - either we work quickly to get the animals out, or they are going to die. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Lastly:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But this is certainly the largest-scale animal rescue operation I've EVER heard of in this country, so I'm willing to cut them a little slack here until we know more. I doubt any of the rescue groups of any kind had a plan already in place for what to do with several thousand used crates... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stack 'em in New Orleans in an empty parking lot. Let the military take them - the military see TONS of loose animals, and the best they can do is make a list for us as to where to look for those animals. Now, I'm not saying the military should rescue animals - they are busy with other things. But if they wanted those loose crates, to UNOFFICIALLY grab an animal on their way off shift (if they have a melting heart, which many of them do), great. Or if some sneaking in residents want a crate to catch a neighbor's dog, great. Or if a local rescue group runs short while IN the city doing rescues, great.

We had to *ask* outsiders for more crates -- we were stuck without enough.

Edited to add one more thing: I apologize for sounding so... disrespectful of a few of the groups that are trying to help the animals. I know their volunteers are super, selfless, and willing. The red tape their administration puts up, however, just makes me sad.

For example, it took me over an hour to rescue two very scared, very injured, very sweet and lovely chows from their swamped, putrid, oil and toxin filled, dangerous backyard. One of the chows was basically dying, but she was so scared that she still tried to fight me as best she could when I tried to get her. (Her fighting consisted of hiding her head in the bushes while standing in knee high water. When I got the catch-pole on her, she shook her head as hard as she could to escape. That's all she could do. Normally chows are WAY strong.) The other chow, with a huge, deep gash on his back - likely from being hit by trees and cars as his backyard flooded to over 10 feet - growled at me and tried to hide in his demolished shed, where his dead friend lay decomposing. Then, when I got him out of the shed, he tried to climb a tree to escape me -- climb a freakin' tree. That was all he could do - normally a chow would have much more fight in him. It is for that reason that any hour lost to red tape breaks my heart. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

If those two chows are up for adoption, by the way, would any of you want them? I would hate to see them split up. The dying one appears to be the mother of the gashed-back one.

[poltroon]

elizabeth, I totally understand that to some extent they just have to find homes for the animals. But I can also see that if your animal was left behind that it is really difficult for even a caring, capable owner to find their animal. To not take phone calls seems unreasonable. To not keep a log of what animal goes where so that an owner might be able to at least know that their pet was found seems silly.

[elizabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To not keep a log of what animal goes where so that an owner might be able to at least know that their pet was found seems silly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most of the groups try to. Remember, these are animal lovers, so they totally try to track these animals. But if the choice comes down to:
(a) putting 100 crates on a flight quickly to make room for the next 100 that are rolling in so that you can go back out quickly to bust down another 100 doors to get another 80 animals on the 24th day that they are trapped in their houses without food and are therefor about to die
versus
(b) spending about 8 hours photographing, labelling, and transcribing the numbers, locations, and such of the animals that were not properly recorded at pick-up and on the way in,
I would pick option "a."

This isn't about folks trying to steal animals from their owners. This is about folks trying to rescue as many animals as possible as quickly as possible. If that means some of the dogs get lost in the shuffle ("lost" to their owners, that is) because there is not time to go back and re-label them if it was initially missed, so be it. (PARTICULARLY when we are dealing with dogs that are not fixed to begin with. (Flipping idiots - If you LOVE your dog, why would you NOT fix your dog in a city that is KNOWN for its dog-fighting industry?))

And I totally think that some of the national rescue groups administrations should be lambasted for their idiodic red tape that cut INTO the time we had to rescue and label.

So I'm NOT saying that not taking phone calls is a good thing. I *am* saying that not having complete and accurate tracking information and the very best process for animal-owner reuniting is in part due to the HUGE time pressure and enormity of the dilemma. Every second spent fixing tracking errors or taking phone calls is a second taken away from animal rescues. (Again, with the caveat that the AS&HOLE% who spend their time arguing over which agency controls what area and what process and whatever are really wasting time and should be ... called bad names.)

One other thing: Sometimes the volunteers f*ck up such that there is not a good record. If two of us were trying to get a pitbull that was stuck for 21 days under a china cabinet in his sogged and molding house and was therefore injured, starving, confused, and agressive (just due to being injured and confused), it might well be the case that neither of us thinks to note the house number that we were pulling the poor baby from because we are both busy trying to get the dog out, keep him from dying, get him through the hip-high water that is littered with trees and power lines, and get him to the triage center before he dies. Like, we were just too overwhelmed and undermanned to even think about the number. So, in his case, it might be slightly hard or impossible for his family to ever track him down - assuming they want to. Most likely, though, given the destruction to their house, it is going to be a LONG time, if ever, until they could have gotten him back. Do we want him to sit in a crate somewhere for six months until his family can come get him? (As I understand it, there are tons of foster homes and folks WILLING to give back the animals if their owners show up, by the way. So I do not understand the situation to involve a lot of people trying to GET dogs for good just because they want to adopt new dogs.)

One other *other* thing: If the animal is brought to a rescue center by a local person or a police officer or a news person, they aren't going to HAVE the animal's house number to tag the animal to. The animal will still get a number and will still get tracked (hopefully, anyway), but, without the house that the animal was pulled from, it will be harder for the owner to track.

So, my rambling point: Poltroon, I think many of the administrative folks of the national rescue groups should be "fussed at" ("yelled at," in southern speak) for the way that their STUPID policies got in the way of a quicker rescue that would have more effectively allowed for owner-animal reunions. I totally agree with you, and I know that I would be RUINED - TOTALLY HEART-BROKEN - if I ever lost my dog because she was not properly tracked in a disaster rescue situation. Know, however, that some of the confusion that might come up over the next few months over owners trying to find their dogs is likely from the (a) lack of volunteers, (b) total time pressure of the life-or-death rescues, and (c) exhausted and overwhelmed volunteer error (like the pitbull example I noted above).

[elizabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Of course, in order to find out if your animal is at the shelter, you have to appear in person, since the facility does not take phone calls. This information comes from an HSUS press release.

So if you evacuated to Georgia or just about anywhere out of driving distance of Hattiesburg and haven't come back because you haven't anything left but a foundation slab, you can't call to see if the trip is worthwhile. And your dog or cat will be shipped out of state to a new home next week.

From the petfinders website, it looks like Lamar Dixon is already shipping small animals far away from Louisiana. Looks like the "nationals" have given up on reuniting pets with their real owners.

New Orleans is still closed to its residents. People are homeless. Now their pets have been stolen by idiotic bureaucrats in charitable disguises. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Viney, one other thing: Many (some?) of the rescued pets are tracked on petfinder with their tracking numbers listed. So I imagine there HAS to be a way for at least some owners to identify and track their pets through that without having to go back to the rescue site in Louisiana.

Oh, and one FINAL other thing: If the HUS takes phone calls, each phone call will likely take a good chunk of time, right? I mean, if one person calls saying "do you have my black chow," the person answering the call will have to (a) look on petfinder, (b) go out to the animal holding area and look through the HUNDREDS of crates/cages not yet entered into the computer system, (c) call the other rescue sites around N.O. (there are a few) to see if any of THEM have the pet and (d) do GOD knows what before giving an answer. That's just not a good use of the rescue folks' time right now (when compared with letting the phone ansering HUS person go out and rescue other pets).

As inconvenient (sp?) as it is, wouldn't it be BETTER for the owner to come back to New Orleans and LOOK for their pet at the rescue sites? If the pet wasn't at any of the three or four rescue sites and I were the owner, you can bet your left arm I'd go back into New Orleans (even if I had to sneak back in - which is possible) and go back to my house. If my animal were not in my house, and the animal WAS taken by a rescue group, the rescue group likely will have spray-painted on my house a note (or likely will have left a paper note). Then I could go back to whichever rescue group spraypainted on my house, and I could DEMAND a list of wherever they have shipped animals (could be one shelter in one state; could be 10 shelter in 10 states). I would then call the rescues to which the N.O. rescue had shipped animals to see which group could identify my animal. I know - tough process. The whole system sucks. No animal should have been left behind. No levee should have broke. The whole situation sucks. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
And, by the way, nobody here has yet said if they want two chows.

[OldLadyOnATB]

I have to say that elizabeth is right on the "showing up in person" thing. We don't release a horse to anyone that doesn't show up in person to claim it. We will allow them to hire or ask another person to transport the horse for them, but the owner must come forth. We don't take anybody's word for it. The last thing we want to happen is to send an animal off with the wrong owner/agent.

If any of you on this board lost a horse in this disaster and knew that someone had rescued horses and taken them to Lamar Dixon, I can bet you would be camped out at Lamar Dixon waiting for the horse to arrive. If you had left the area and gone to Houston (or somewhere else) I bet most of you would figure out a way to come to Baton Rouge to claim your horse. I know that for me, wild indians couldn't keep me away....the same goes for my dogs. I have received hundreds of phone calls from people looking for their doga and horses....I tell them they must come down here and find/claim them. Most of the people that call me are looking for the "chestnut gelding with the blaze" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Of course, I have 200 of those.....they must come down here.

Elizabeth

[Ghazzu]

Say you're one of the folks who was put on a bus and not told until you were in transit where you were going.

You're now in temporary housing hundereds of miles away. Able to care for your pet, but not able to go to Baton Rouge or wherever to look for it.

How do you show up in person?
It's not that it is inconvenient--it's that it is impossible.

It isn't the fault of either the shelter volunteers nor the exiles, though.

I hope that out of this disaster comes a workable plan for dealing with future situations.

Certainly a system of microchipping, digitally photographing, and entering the data in a laptop
on intake could be worked out so that it was almost an assembly line. I'm sure there would be no shortage of volunteers willing to do such work, and the microchip manufacturers would more than likely donate the chips for such an effort.

[MHM]

The whole situation is just so, so sad. I'm sure that all the volunteers are doing their very best for both the animals and the people in an impossible situation.

Perhaps the only good that's come of this is that the officials in Texas seemed more willing to let people take their pets with them when they evacuated for the second hurricane. They learned from Katrina that many people WILL NOT leave their animals behind, so they were saving human lives by saving their pets.

I just hope that lesson is translated into major widespread policy changes for emergency situations.

[vineyridge]

My only point, I guess, is that with the millions of donated dollars and supplies, longer term shelters in the local areas could be opened. To ship animals out after less than a month is just plain sinful, when there are SO many wasted supplies and so much donated money that could be used.

As to the petfinder site, I went there and was completely confused on how to navigate it. If a person a) doesn't have access to a computer or b) isn't computer literate, what good will an internet site do? A human voice, on the telephone, sitting at a computer in the shelter with a list of where the animals were found and a description, would be a lot more soothing to a distraught pet owner than a website, and a lot easier to navigate. Heck, if DirecTV can find an operator who can deal with my account in only a few seconds, we should have phone network software already in place pre disaster for everything, including animals.

I think Ghazzu has it completely right; and, from my perspective, the whole pre-planning and organizational end of things has just plain sucked.

You on the ground did, have done; and are doing wonderful work. It's the post rescue situation that chaps my *ss.

[vineyridge]

OldladyonaTB,

How long is the horse rescue planning to be open at Gonzales?

When it closes, what do y'all plan to do with unclaimed horses, if there are any?

I have to say, in all honesty, that I think it's much more likely that horse owners would either stay in the region or come back as soon as humanly possible, since so many of them have, to be PC here, larger financial interests at stake than do many urban dwellers. I know if I had to evacuate my farm, I'd be back the next night and no one could stop me. After all, as Scarlett O'Hara once said, "The land will always be here." or some such, and it's the land that I value, not the house.

[MHM]

I believe it was actually Scarlett's father Mr. O'Hara who drilled into her his views about land: "It's the only thing that matters- the only thing that lasts."

Though he may not have foreseen toxic muck below sea level. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[EponaRoan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The people who lived in those houses are MONTHS, if not YEARS away from having a home again. I decided then that many of the animals deserved new homes, as opposed to having to wait for their owners to perhaps never return. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but ... what if those people haven't been able to find their pets, have relocated to another state and plan on making a new life there? Shouldn't they have a chance to reconnect? It was chaotic to say the least for at least a week after the hurricane, people either lost their vehicles or had none and may not have the financial resources to get back to try to locate Rover or Sparky in a shelter that won't tell them anything on the phone. And to be honest, one black Lab or tabby cat may look very much like another.

I guess I put myself in their shoes - I'd hate to lose my dogs, my home and my possessions in something like this.

That said - microchip your critters. Please. In the event of something like Katrina, then at least your name would be on file as the owner/caretaker of the animal. You can also list alternate contacts with phone numbers if you cannot be reached.

Tattoos can be hard to trace, especially in the case of dogs. Ditto brands in the case of horses.

It's not 100% - nothing is - but it would make it a lot easier to recover your pets if something like this were to happen to them and they were sent to a faraway state.

I've been microchipping my dogs for at least the last 15 years or so. Maybe longer, I can't recall exactly when I started, but my last five dogs have all had/have chips.

[MHM]

Isn't there still some sort of glitch with microchips? Two different companies make them, and the technology is incompatible, or something like that? Plus not every place has the equipment to read either one of them?

I'm old-fashioned, I guess- collars with multiple tags.

[elizabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vineyridge:
My only point, I guess, is that with the millions of donated dollars and supplies, longer term shelters in the local areas could be opened. To ship animals out after less than a month is just plain sinful, when there are SO many wasted supplies and so much donated money that could be used </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SET IT UP!! No, I'm not being snide, Viney - you know I like you! But SET THAT SYSTEM UP!! Volunteer to go out and get the official permission and volunteer builders. I think the suggestion is great, and I suspect the municipalities and builders will too, but *YOU* (or someone) has to set it up! Everyone down there now is too busy trying to focus on getting animals out of N.O. alive.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Certainly a system of microchipping, digitally photographing, and entering the data in a laptop on intake could be worked out so that it was almost an assembly line. I'm sure there would be no shortage of volunteers willing to do such work, and the microchip manufacturers would more than likely donate the chips for such an effort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Set it up, Ghazzu!! Volunteer for it! The groups down there are so overwhelmed - they will TAKE your super suggestion if YOU carry it out. If you just offer to solicit the microchip manufacturers like you suggested above, go down to N.O., set out the supplies, and set up the system, I have to believe the rescue groups with use it in a heartbeat. Your system makes SENSE. Absolutely makes the most sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's the post rescue situation that chaps my *ss. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's same people doing both. Sometimes they have a choice: (a) save more animals with a spare hour or (b) spend a spare hour trying to untangle which dog came from where and where the digital photo is.

We're not kidding around, folks. There are dogs starving to death. Hooking up found animals with owners CANNOT be the priority right now. For every hour that is devoted to that, an hour worth of life saving is wasted. No offense to any of you - that's just where things are at right now.

[elizabeth]

And does ANYONE want TWO DAMN CHOWS?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Just askin'. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[OldLadyOnATB]

Louisiana law requires that all horses be branded, tatooed or microchipped. Most of the horses we have are compliant. If an owner is out of state, we can get a copy of the coggins from them or their vet and match it up with their driver's license information. Initially we have to have a picture/chip number etc. to positively ID the horse.

In actuality, it has not come up. There is one older gentleman that is now in San Antonio and not in good enough health to travel. He is looking for an aged TB....sadly, the horse is not at Lamar Dixon. Either she did not make it through the storm or is being cared for by someone in the area where she was stabled. My best guess, is that if she was old, she didn't make it.

There are two chips...one is an Avid chip and is not as widely used in this area....we have both readers in the horse area. I can't answer for the small animal folks.

Today, I found a box of brand new collars and leashes they were planning on trashing. I picked up a new collar for my JRT. He likes it. There was a volunteer there trying to find a collar for a bulldog she was exercising. I offered her a beautiful rolled leather collar from the box I found. She replied that she was a vegan and would never use leather. Oh well....

Elizabeth

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by elizabeth:
You know something - if you are going to NOT fix your dog, I feel very little remorse about your not having a dog.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go to hell. Who made you God?

I have two very lovely old male hounds, neither of whom are fixed, and therefore you'd blithely take my dogs, whom I love and who love me, off to be adopted in another state saying it serves me right?

You said a lot of great things, but we're getting back to a question of economic class again. It IS possible that very poor people may have a dog or two that they love and take very good care of but they just don't have the money to spay it and neuter it. You are very, very callous to the poor.

Since shelters mandate spaying nowadays, many poor city people no longer adopt pets there because of the high fees, but get a puppy elsewhere. You can be a good dog owner and be poor.

[poltroon]

You guys who are down there in the trenches - I salute you. I know how hard it is to be the people on the ground and I hope the nat'l orgs can get their acts together. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[BLBGP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We're not kidding around, folks. There are dogs starving to death. Hooking up found animals with owners CANNOT be the priority right now. For every hour that is devoted to that, an hour worth of life saving is wasted. No offense to any of you - that's just where things are at right now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Lamar-Dixon facility has a limit imposed on it from the state on how many animals can be in it at one time. That's why other agencies are taking animals out - as far away as NY and California. With many animals arriving at Lamar-Dixon every day, they need room to fit them and house them. They have hundreds of volunteers there who do have time to help people locate their pets - but the shelters out of the area have even more time. We are not adopting any Gulf Coast animals out until 12/31 to ensure ample time for the possible owners to find them.

Of the animals I've seen, less than 10 males and females out of approximately 300 were altered. None had microchips. Although some had collars, less than 20 had collars with some sort of tags (usually rabies only). About 1/3 had some information - ranging from specific to really vague - about where they were found. This all makes it nearly impossible to find their families, but regardless, we're finding them. And every owner has been excited beyond belief to know they beloved pet is safe.

Please, everyone, think about your own disaster plans and please get your pets microchipped. Cats and dogs can slip their collars, but they can't slip out of a microchip and they are by far the easiest way to ensure your animal will be returned.

If anyone is interested in seeing what should be in a disaster kit, please let me know.

[elizabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Anne FS:
Go to hell. Who made you God? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you KIDDING me? Please tell me you are, because for you to tell me to "go to hell" on a thread where I'm telling you I did the best I could in New Orleans (I'm still covered in hives and erupting blisters, thanks very much) STUNS me.

[elizabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLBGP:
Of the animals I've seen, less than 10 males and females out of approximately 300 were altered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ditto, if not less than that on my end. In a city that has a significant dog fighting contingent, I find that. . . shockingly miserable.

[J Swan]

Elizabeth - I think that many folks merely take great exception to people making moral judgments.

No one denigrates your efforts down there.

There are two sides to every story - and I think when you get upset at intact animals and made moral judgments about their owners it can really piss people off.

Another view might be that this would have been as much of a problem if folks were allowed to take their pets with them in the first place.

Or a low cost/free spay neuter clinic for people, including low income people.

Poor people have a right to own a dog too. And if they didn't get their female spayed, but kept it in a yard, and then was told to leave the animal behind during a disaster - who are we to say this person was not a good pet owner?

[elizabeth]

J. Swan,
Nowhere did I say anything about poor people. Anne FS made that up (liar, liar - pants on fire! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif) So for HER to make that up about poor people reflects HER stereotypes about poor people. Disgusting! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Just reprehensible!

As to the failure to spay/neuter a dog, *I* said, right after the line Anne quotes, "JMHO - just mine." Maybe Anne got so excited with the repugnancy (is that a word?) of my stating my own opinion that she failed to notice that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That's on HER - not me.

As to my opinion that it is HORRIBLE to not fix your dog when you live in a town that is KNOWN for its dog fighting, that *is* my opinion. Big whoop. I'm not going around taking dogs from owners to have them forcibly fixed. I'm just stating my opinion - that it is . . . generally thoughtless (irresponsible? horrible?) to NOT fix an animal when you live in a town where dog fighting is big business.

So I still think Anne's rude comment is . . . well. . . rude.

[MHM]

I'm confused. What's the connection between the dog fighting business and intact pets?

I think pets should be neutered unless you have a specific plan to breed them, but what's the significance of the dog fighting angle?

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

ummmmm...whether an animal is fixed or not has nothing to do with identifying those lost or left behind. Instead of turning this thread ugly again (spay/neuter vs those who don't), why not stay on topic and push for chipping prior to any more disasters. Can't we use this as an example of WHAT TO DO to prevent future separations instead of another fruitbattin' bitchfest?

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MHM:
I'm confused. What's the connection between the dog fighting business and intact pets?

I think pets should be neutered unless you have a specific plan to breed them, but what's the significance of the dog fighting angle? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Was wondering that myself. I have 2 intact bitches. One is 15 years old and has never been bred. The other is 2 and never bred. I simlpy don't let them loose.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I believe intact dogs are more aggressive - in order to "better" fight...and guess they want to breed the "good ones" to even more aggressive mates? Just a guess - have no real info...

[EponaRoan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MHM:
Isn't there still some sort of glitch with microchips? Two different companies make them, and the technology is incompatible, or something like that? Plus not every place has the equipment to read either one of them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's Avid and Home Again and one other - Vet-something I think. While the equipment can't necessarily read other chips, it will indicate that a chip is there.

One of my current dogs has Avid and the other has Home Again. I'm not real happy with Avid since after getting a ' free lifetime' plan, they won't change info without charging a fee whereas Home Again is happy to make changes and add info. I suppose that could change, but ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm old-fashioned, I guess- collars with multiple tags. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Collars and tags are or should be first line defense/information. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My dogs wear collars with multiple tags including one about a medical condition (seizures/epilepsy) that one dog has. But tags have been known to fall off, dogs may wear tags from previous owners. Collars can come off or be taken off. It's pretty hard to remove a chip.

[EponaRoan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seahorsefarmtobe:
Can't we use this as an example of WHAT TO DO to prevent future separations instead of another fruitbattin' bitchfest? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear, hear! Seconded.

[MHM]

Epona-

Thanks for the microchip details. I guess I think more in terms of a neighbor who finds a dog who has escaped. It's easy enough for anyone to call a phone number on a tag- no special equipment needed. Just a phone and some good will. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I'll investigate the microchip options for mine, though.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I just phoned my vet re: chipping...made an appointment for dog & cats, too! $40 each. My dog has a pin-head comared to her body, and although she wears a collar, I have to use a harness to walk her so it doesn't slip off...and she'd lose that collar in no time flat if she were to get out!

[elizabeth]

As it was explained to me:
(a) Intact males are better for fighting
(b) N.O. already has too many animals, such that the dog fighters have easy access to dogs to abuse. More puppies just make it easier.
(c) To the extent that dogs are often stolen FOR breeding purposes, it is better for your dog to be fixed (to be less attractive).
(d) N.O. is an area where there are many, many, many dogs desperate for homes (either dogs who were pulled from fighting farms before they fought or puppies who were born of many of the loose roaming dogs), such that home-based breeding does not serve to fill a pressing animal need.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

On my last trip to NO, a few years ago, I was wandering down on the waterfront and came upon a huge wolfhoundish dog with spiked collar (ingrown into his neck) and severed cable...A cop happened along and advised that MANY dogs end up at the waterfront daily - strays, lost or abandoned...and that was during a normal time - not disaster-related. I took the dog, fed & watered him and removed the collar (no identifying tags) and the cop had already called animal control, who took him in. Later that same day, and the rest of my visit, I saw many, many more. It was heartbreaking.

[EponaRoan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seahorsefarmtobe:
I just phoned my vet re: chipping...made an appointment for dog & cats, too! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yay! I don't think anyone will regret chipping their critters.

Here are some links to the major chip companies:

Avid: http://www.avidmicrochip.com/

HomeAgain: http://www.homeagainid.com/

AKC CAR - Companion Animal Recovery: http://www.akccar.org/

"CAR recognizes all brands and types of microchips, tattoos and collar tags. [I need to cross register my older dog (Avid chip since he was 8 weeks old) with them too.]

AKC Companion Animal Recovery (CAR) accepts all pets that are identified with a microchip, tattoo, or the new AKC CAR collar tag."

So that could include equines as well.

No matter how careful you are or how well-trained your critter(s) might be, there's always a chance that something could happen and you could be separated. It's not like they can pick up a phone and call you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

DAMN, Eponaroan! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Now that's what I'm talkin' about! That's the kind of educational info we should all share here instead of being the snark-patrol! Tks for posting!
In fact, hope u don't mind, but I started a whole new thread for the microchipping info - to prevent it from being lost in this craptastic thread when it goes back into bitchdom....

[MHM]

Thanks for the clarification on the dog fighting/loose dog issues. I don't know anything about the subject, other than what I'd like to do to the people involved.

To make a completely un-PC statement, it sounds like the dog fight crowd was long overdue for a flood of Biblical proportions. Too bad the animal abusers weren't the only one affected by it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Warmest wishes again to everyone who is trying to help the animals.

[magnum]

.... I am VERY LATE to this thread, and didn't read most of it.

However, I am relieved some one else (Old Lady with TB) has expressed the same outrage I have long experienced directed at the HSUS.

Long story short, I gave money to the ASPCA a few years ago. Shortly thereafter, every animal rescue agency in America (and any and all English speaking countries) has put me on their mailing list. Every DAY, I get at least one 5 page letter explaining in the finest and most graffic detail the atrocities of man against each agency's rescued animals. Very sad, indeed, and how dare the ASPCA sell my name to others -- that is what I get for giving them money? My name becomes a SALES tool for their agency?

The folks who got the "Cream of the crop" award, however, for bad behavior on this effort IS THE HSUS.

Shortly after my ASPCA donation, I started getting GIFTS in the mail sent to me by the HSUS. I had NEVER ONCE DONATED TO THEM.

When I did not donate, the gifts came more often ..... and got LARGER. Again, I was an "unknown" to them. Not a cent from me to them ... ever, so why the gifts sent to me?

.... As the stuffed teddy bears, key chains and trinkets bin got larger and larger, so, in perfect ratio, my anger at the HSUS grew, as well...

Finally, I boxed up all the gifts sent to me. And, I enclosed a VERY HEATED, VERY BLUNT 2 page letter, explaining my disgust at them for using other people's contributions to give me, an UNKNOWN, GIFTS, when that money could have been used to help needy animals (don't get me started, or I'll write 2 pages HERE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif ... )

I never got a response to my letter. I can assure you that my anger at them for mis-use of others' contributions can not be measured.

FWIW -- Bringing this thing full circle and back to the O.T. -- years ago, when my husband looked into having his Co. open up a foundation, he learned that the IRS only requires 10% of DONATIONS to be used directly to the cause in question (he never opened a foundation, FWIW).

Point is, to meet IRS requirements, 90% of DONATIONS to a non-profit foundation can be used for "other" uses! Do we smell "money maker" here?

Is that what is going on at the HSUS?

Why didn't they E-Bay those crates rather than toss them aside? Then, the E-bay sale money could have been used to help needy animals, right? ... Oh, forgoet it. We are talking about the HSUS, here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Magnum

[J Swan]

That's great info about the microchipping. I've been toying with the idea but was concerned about the technology incompatibility. I'll have to read up on it.

I think we forget that spaying and neutering is a "modern" thing. When I was a kid - and NO I'm not that old!!! - a lot of dogs were not fixed. It was a luxury.

magnum - you are dealing with big business. Charities are big big big big big business. I think that if you really want to see more of your money put to use, donate to a local charity.

Big charities have more in common with Enron.


I have a question - are the animals being shipped out to parts unknown being scanned for microchips? If so - are the ones with microchips being segregated somehow?

[magnum]

Point well taken, J Swan.

How unfortunate for the ANIMALS ...

Magnum

[MHM]

magnum-

It's so funny you should post about those HSUS gifts today. I've also been getting that stuff for years, even though I've never donated any money to them.

This morning, as I was walking out the door into the rain, I grabbed the unused umbrella they sent me a while back. After less than 5 minutes of use, it turned inside out. And I'm not talking about gale-force winds, by any means.

So not only are they spending money to send gifts to people who don't want them, the stuff they're sending out is junk to boot! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[magnum]

Auuuggghhhhhhh ! And,again, those poor animals who are starving, hungry and injured. They sure could use that money to help them.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by elizabeth:

Set it up, Ghazzu!! Volunteer for it! The groups down there are so overwhelmed - they will TAKE your super suggestion if YOU carry it out. If you just offer to solicit the microchip manufacturers like you suggested above, go down to N.O., set out the supplies, and set up the system, I have to believe the rescue groups with use it in a heartbeat. Your system makes SENSE. Absolutely makes the most sense.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had signed on to head south with a busload of students from the animal health program at my school, but have had to drop my plans, as a close family member is currently hospitalized with a serious illness.

However, if there are other people whao want to help coordinate this plan, i'd be more than happy to call the chip makers and attempt to wheedle microchips from them.

And there must be some clerical type stuff that can be done remotely, so others in my situation could be doing useful things.

Anyone?

[BLBGP]

Disaster Prep Tips:

1. Always have pet food and any needed livestock feed on hand. In the case of disaster preparedness, it is recommended that pet owners maintain on hand a minimum of one week’s supply of pet food. For livestock, one to two weeks of feed is recommended. While this may seem excessive, consider that roads may be impassable, and even if your supplier has feed available, they may not be able to get feed delivered to you.

2. Water poses another challenge as pets and livestock require clean, fresh water every day. Consider that this may quickly become a serious problem if you rely on a well and have no electricity. Keeping a generator on hand may help but consider too that a water system may be destroyed or contaminated in the event of an earthquake or flood. Have on hand numerous 5 gallon plastic jugs (such as the type used for water coolers - available at most larger hardware stores) filled with water and stored in an accessible area.

If you currently rely solely on small automatic waterers, remember to have a large tub on hand to offer emergency water to your livestock. Identify alternate sources of water (i.e. neighbors) as well as a method to transport all needed water. Keep cases of bottled water on hand (which can be quickly transferred to your vehicle) in the event you need to evacuate by car.

3. As with your personal disaster preparedness kit, remember to include some items for your pets and livestock. The following is a list if items that probably will be needed in the event of a disaster:

• First aid items for injury. (i.e. disinfectants, bandages, scissors,
blankets or towels, etc.)
• Any needed medications - at least 1 week's worth.
• Halters and lead ropes for livestock; leashes and collars for pets; pet carriers and spare I.D. tags for dogs and cats. Spare I.D. tags are very important in case your home is destroyed and you need to relocate temporarily. You can put your updated contact information on the spare tags.
• “Evacsacs” or pillow cases for cats or small pets such as rabbits.
• Pet food and water bowls, manual can openers and plastic pet food can lids. Canned food is easier than dry because it does not need to be replaced as often as your kit waits months or years for use.
• Copies of current vaccination certificates, licensing & microchip information as well as information on how to contact your veterinarian and local animal shelter in the event of an emergency.
• Include recent, full-body, color photos of your pet in the event they are lost or separated from you.

4. Provide and practice “disaster training” for your animals. This will be very valuable in the event of a fire, flood or earthquake. Horses should be comfortable loading in to trailers. Dogs should have basic obedience training and be able to listen to you and respond to commands in an emergency. Cats and small animals should be comfortable being placed in, and traveling in, pet carriers.

5. Keep a current list of local hotels and motels that will accommodate pets. This list will come in handy during extended power outages, as well as disasters situations.

6. Microchip all pets. Pets can slip a collar but they can't slip out of a microchip. With so many pets out there that look similar, a microchip is the best way to ensure you will get your pet returned to you.

We had a cat come into our shelter a few months ago. We scanned it and got a hit. Called the owners on the microchip, thinking their cat had been missing a few days, maybe a week. They immediately burst into tears. Their cat had been missing for 2 1/2 years. Two and a hlaf YEARS! He was a generic-looking black medium-haired cat. Without the microchip, there was no way they'd know if it was their cat - or even be looking at shelters for him 2 1/2 years after losing him. But he went home to them. Microchips are amazing.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLBGP:
Disaster Prep Tips:

&lt;SNIP&gt;

2. Water poses another challenge as pets and livestock require clean, fresh water every day. Consider that this may quickly become a serious problem if you rely on a well and have no electricity. Keeping a generator on hand may help but consider too that a water system may be destroyed or contaminated in the event of an earthquake or flood. Have on hand numerous 5 gallon plastic jugs (such as the type used for water coolers - available at most larger hardware stores) filled with water and stored in an accessible area.

&lt;SNIP&gt;
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
My local pool supply store BEGS me to come get buckets. They range in size fron 2 to 20 gallons, with screw on lids and made of food grade plastic. They have had chlorine in them so they need to be rinsed and air dried well but they are great for storing water, food, first aid supplies, blankets and whatever. Since I want to keep the supply coming I pick up whatever they want to get rid of.

[vineyridge]

What a wonderful idea about contacting the pool supply companies! I used to do the same thing with leftover buckets from the Memphis Zoo, but let that sort of lapse. I should start the bucket collecting up again, as the plastic does go bad after more than five years. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[EponaRoan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vineyridge:
I should start the bucket collecting up again, as the plastic does go bad after more than five years. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can also ask for and offer buckets on your local Freecycle. http://www.freecycle.org

And sometimes bakery or deli departments at your local supermarket may have them and be able to give them to you.

[vineyridge]

My county in Mississippi doesn't have a freecycle group.

Should I start one? The moderating function looks seriously time consuming and complicated.

Can you join groups that aren't in your immediate area?

[MHM]

I just received an email through my local dog owners group regarding an on-line petition to improve Red Cross policies about animal care in emergencies.

It is through HSUS, so I daresay they are also collecting names and contact information from anyone who signs. That being said, here's the link:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/256230705

If anyone wants to post it in a new thread, feel free. For some reason Groupee won't let me start new threads, only reply to existing ones.

[incentive]

Thanks, MHM. I just signed it and emailed it to several friend. I don't want all the solicitations that will probably flood my mail box now, but that's an acceptable trade-off if the petition will help.

[Erin]

viney, I'm on a very active Freecycle group. I wouldn't think moderating one is too much work. It sort of depends on how you have it set up. You can PT me for more info. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I collect empty supplement containers at my barn and Freecycle those. In addition to pawning them off on my friends. No one I know will EVER buy another bucket again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

BTW, small supplement buckets are good for storing a feeding's worth of grain, too. I try to keep a few around in case I need to drag the horsey off on an overnight trip somewhere, but they'd also be good for emergencies or if you needed to evacuate with horses. (Or even smaller pets... a tub would hold a few days' worth of dry food for cats or dogs.)

I'm also going to check with my vet about getting my cats chipped next time they're in for shots. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MHM]

Incentive, that was exactly my reaction! The email I received mentioned the Red Cross, but it looks like the petition is directed more towards an improvement in the government's policies. Either way, it's all good.

Side note to magnum: My snail mail today included a boxed set of Christmas cards, courtesy of HSUS. Perhaps they knew that my fancy HSUS umbrella failed yesterday, and they wanted to make amends. I'm afraid to think what will appear in my mailbox next, now that I've given them my name voluntarily. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Erin]

Has this been mentioned yet on this thread? A bill has been introduced in Congress to require local communities to include pets in evacuation plans:

http://news.newstimeslive.com/story.php?id=74821&category=Local (http://news.newstimeslive.com/story.php?id=74821&amp;category=Local)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Congress is considering legislation to require state and local evacuation and rescue plans to include how to rescue pets during disasters.

The bill was co-sponsored by U.S. Rep. Christopher Shays, R-4th Dist., and U.S. Rep. Tom Lantos, D-Calif., the co-chairmen of the Congressional Friends of Animals Caucus.

Shays and Lantos also wrote a letter to U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff complaining the response in rescuing animals was inadequate. "Leaving a pet behind can unnecessarily complicate the rescue process," the letter said.

"Pets for many are a close part of the family. In some cases they are the center of the family," Shays said. "A number of people lost their lives because they weren't willing to leave their pets."

The Pets Evacuation and Transportation Standards proposal requires local and state emergency agencies to include a pet evacuation plan to get federal funds. State and local governments already have to submit general emergency plans to qualify for federal funding. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[MHM]

The link I posted above is to a petition in support of this new legislation. Long overdue, as recent events have shown.

I know people in Wellington who ignored evacuation orders last year because their local shelters would not accept pets, and the owners would not leave them behind.

[EponaRoan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vineyridge:
My county in Mississippi doesn't have a freecycle group.

Should I start one? The moderating function looks seriously time consuming and complicated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard it's a real pita (I politely declined when offered ownership of a group by an owner who was moving out of state) and have seen examples of it being a real pita on my local Freecycle groups (lots of whining and requests for big ticket items). Depends on your overall patience and the composition of your subscribers. If you do it, I strongly recommend recruiting reliable and supportive co-moderators.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Can you join groups that aren't in your immediate area? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes. Depends on the moderator(s). Also take into consideration if you or the other party are going to want to drive 30 miles (or whatever) to pickup stuff. That's the biggie.

[ML]

A suggestion on saving water, have used or reused the 64 oz size laundry detergent containers to bring warm water to my horses in the winter. Normally have 3 to 6 of these saved up but may be a good idea to have more. Also they were a big plus at horse shows easy to carry did not spill etc. At the sporting good store got 5 gallon size ones for about 5.00 but they were a bit heavy to drag around. At hay sale today managed to get 10 5 white buckets, sadly no lids but better then nothing.