H/J person - question about eventing position

[RugBug]

I think it all depends on your definition of scope. I define scope as how high and wide a horse can safely and cleanly jump from a multitude of spots over a multitude of jumps: (i.e. courses and not just single fences). For some horses, that's a 2'6" vertical for some it's 5' x 4' oxer. You can't train that. You can assist it by developing the proper muscle and cardio fitness, but you can't make the 2'6" horse safely jump a 3'6" fence. They may be able to scramble over it with a perfect ride to it, but you're not going to get a course of 3'6" with a not-so-accurate ride out of the horse.

Yes, training does play into it. You can have the scopiest horse in the world who can't get over a 2' course because it's never been trained properly. But usually that training is about developing potential, not creating it. You develop a horse that listens to a rider, extending, collecting, and yielding when asked. You develop muscle and power in the hind end, but you can't develop natural abilty. You focus it.

[LisaB]

In the bandwagon with scope cannot be developed. Sure, a horse can be trained to be a better, safer jumper but scope? Nah. I finally have one that does have natural scope and there's a huge difference.
The extravagent hunters are born not made as well. A hunter person sees a type of natural jump in a horse and then trains the horse up. Also, the look. Mine would be a wonderful hunter but his head is way too big. Oh darn! He's mine!
And oh, I was watching a GP the other day and there was a hunter person in there. He was a beautiful rider but knocked a couple of rails on the first round because he really wasn't reactive enough to the different types of jumps. He actually froze over the first. Well, I would too and then promptly toss my cookies. But it was interesting to see the difference.

[subk]

horseguy your comments about two jumping styles on a continuum are brilliant. You have given me much to think about today.

Scope can absolutely be developed! Go ask K. O'Connor about Worth the Trust's "scope." Everytime that horse moved to a new level they thought, "well this is it. This will be as much as he can do." And yet he won Rolex! Karen is probably one of our most experienced riders--do you think she just "missed" seeing his scope? Not me!

Horseguy is correct that one can (and I have) make significant changes in where on the continuum the horse jumps. In eventing we occasionally make drastic changes (on purpose) on the same course. The first fence on XC after steeplechase for example. Yes, you're obviously going for a different effort, but I've been taught to ride it for a very round jump,as opposite from steeplechase as possible--not just you standard, "its an inviting oxer type effort." I could sure do it on my big horse when he was doing 3-days, couldn't do it 4 years earlier. Can't do it today on my 5 year old but I'm not that optimistic to think we'll get there--even if it's far, far away and he's not far enough in his training to "see" his potential "scope."

Rugbug I think at this point you have become so incredibly defensive that you can't see the proverbial forest for the trees.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RugBug:
Poggio II? Good form, but a bit tense for the hunter ring. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poggio II has "good form?!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I can only hope you have confused him with a different horse. Poggio II has awful, awful "form." In fact he is considered a freak. Extraordinarily powerful and huge heart, but Amy was the only person in the world who could looked at the way he jumped and ever think, "yeah, we can harness that, he's big time." I admire her tremendously as a rider!

Scope is not some mystical, magical thing. It is a judgement based on a lot of things. Yes, there are some static elements in the equation, like conformation. But a huge part of "scope" is based on the way the horse is performing today. And I CAN change the way a horse performs--it's called training.

[subk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RugBug:
I define scope as how high and wide a horse can safely and cleanly jump from a multitude of spots over a multitude of jumps: (i.e. courses and not just single fences). For some horses, that's a 2'6" vertical for some it's 5' x 4' oxer. You can't train that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If this is how the majority of Hunter riders think than I have a brand new understanding of why they pay such exorbitant prices for their horses.

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:
"its an inviting oxer type effort." I could sure do it on my big horse when he was doing 3-days, couldn't do it 4 years earlier. Can't do it today on my 5 year old but I'm not that optimistic to think we'll get there--even if it's far, far away and he's not far enough in his training to "see" his potential "scope."
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe the difference between a 5 year old and a seasoned trained horse is scope. It's training and fitness. If your horse didn't have the scope to jump that fence, no amount of training would've gotten him there. There's a huge difference between younger,and even green but aged, horses and those in competition.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:
Rugbug I think at this point you have become so incredibly defensive that you can't see the proverbial forest for the trees.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's possible. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm trying not to be defensive, but do feel reactive. But that maybe because I feel like the lone soldier. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I do, however, see the forest...it's just a different one and that's becoming more and more clear. It doesn't surprise me, though. The standards are so different why would the forest be the same even when talking about scope or form?

And really, how can I not come across as defensive...I'm just about every other post for the last few pages. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif (Fluffie, where are you?) I am still enjoying the discussion...even after being drawn back in, and was just about to watch the thread die when horseguy posted. I just couldn't help myself. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RugBug:
Poggio II? Good form, but a bit tense for the hunter ring. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:
Poggio II has "good form?!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I can only hope you have confused him with a different horse. Poggio II has awful, awful "form." In fact he is considered a freak. Extraordinarily powerful and huge heart, but Amy was the only person in the world who could looked at the way he jumped and ever think, "yeah, we can harness that, he's big time." I admire her tremendously as a rider!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Amy is an amazing rider. I watch her with much awe. That horse looks incredibly difficult to ride and she looks to be a very tactful rider. However, if you froze a picture of Poggio at the highest part of his arc, it's nice (as long as he's not reaching because he's left long...that horse is insanely athletic). He jumps very round. The rest of the course? Unorthodox.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:
But a huge part of "scope" is based on the way the horse is performing today. And I CAN change the way a horse performs--it's called training. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They way the horse is performing today is training. The way it could possibly perform in the future is scope. If it can do no more than it is doing today, it is at the end of its scope. If it can continue, it's not. The Karen O'Connor horse sounds like it had more scope than they thought. Some horses are surprises. I don't think you know the limits of a horse's scope until you hit the end...and they usually let you know when that is by struggling or starting to stop, etc.

You can't take a scopey but untrained horse and jump it around a 5' course. You've got to train it. But with training, you will eventually get there (if the horse like the job and stays sound)...if that's what you want to do. You will never train a horse without scope to get around 5'.

Editted to add: Hunter people pay so much for their horses for many reasons, some stupid, others valid. When the criteria is very specific, the price can go up and up depending on how much of that criteria is met. If we could take any old horse that could jump 3'6" and didn't care how it moved or what it looked like the prices would certainly drop. However, we want fancy, great mover, great jumper, long strided and seeminly dead quiet. The horse has got to have presence, which matters nought in eventing and jumpers. But the horse prices are over inflated. It's similar to buying a brush for $1.99 in a western store and the same brush for $5.99 in a store catering to eventers and $12.99 in a store catering to hunters...and we pay it. Is that part stupid...heck yeah.

[subk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RugBug:
However, if you froze a picture of Poggio at the highest part of his arc, it's nice (as long as he's not reaching because he's left long...that horse is insanely athletic). He jumps very round. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Froze a picture"?!?!

RugBug and anyone else still reading--if you get nothing else from 13 pages of this discussion get this:

Form is NOT static!
Form is NOT static!
Form is NOT static!


Be it the horse's form or the riders form, it is NOT static. You can not just take a moment in time, like what you see, and call it "good form." This whole discussion and everything that hoseguy has been trying to communicate is about the dynamic consideration of first how we ride and jump and now later how the horse jumps.

Poggio has awful form. Yes, if you take one instant over the top of the fence he appears to be using himself well, but that is because he has NOTHING of a traditional shaped bascule. Have you ever even seen him jump? His general jumping effort creates a SQUARE bascule. He barrels to the fence, takes a half stride that with any other horse would be a chip, lowers his body a foot and then springs straight up. His forward approach pushes him across the fence, he then unfolds the landing gear and drops down. It is the most heart in your throat thing to watch. It is NOT an example anyone should attempt to emmulate. That Amy has allowed him to continue his own bizzard but successful style and taken him to the top of the world is credit to her brilliance.

[RugBug]

To be honest with you, I've only seen Poggio perform in the Olympic videos. I just sat there in complete fascination that 1. Amy could ride him and let him do his thing 2. How freaking athletic he was 3. How often he got himself into trouble and 4. That despite that, his jump wasn't horrendous.

Yes, I picked him because of his "extreme" style and ability. Scope, scope, scope with a smidgen of decent form. But my point was that he would NEVER make a hunter because of reasons other than his jump. If jumping style were so trainable, Poggio II would have potential as a hunter. But I don't think anyone would say he has potential as a hunter. Heck, he probably wouldn't have had potential as an eventer if Amy hadn't come along and allowed him to do his thing. Is her training (or whoever she works with) so deficient that they haven't been able to fix this horse's jumping style?

Maybe I need to study the video more closely as per form....but in this horse's case, it's all about function.

I will try to remain polite and not resort to BOLD repetition, even when that's what I feel like doing. I get what the conversation is about, thanks for the reminder, though. I just believe form can be analyzed statically as well as dynamically and there is much to learn through study of static models.

[Judi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subk:

Poggio has awful form. Yes, if you take one instant over the top of the fence he appears to be using himself well, but that is because he has NOTHING of a traditional shaped bascule. Have you ever even seen him jump? His general jumping effort creates a SQUARE bascule. He barrels to the fence, takes a half stride that with any other horse would be a chip, lowers his body a foot and then springs straight up. His forward approach pushes him across the fence, he then unfolds the landing gear and drops down. It is the most heart in your throat thing to watch. It is NOT an example anyone should attempt to emmulate. That Amy has allowed him to continue his own bizzard but successful style and taken him to the top of the world is credit to her brilliance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think RugBug has seen Poggio II in person or she wouldn't have posted that. I too was shocked at how poorly he jumps. Had the pleasure of seeing he and Amy go at the beginning of the year at Ram Tap. She was just doing an easy PreLim round on him.. and I was on course just to see them... and thought.. Oh my gosh.. that horse couldn't have gone to the Olympics... Plus he was sooo fresh and somewhat out of control. She's an awesome rider to get what she gets out of him. I stand in awe of her ability.

It does sound though that the hunters are so stuck on form over function. I think that's what I find the most bizarre about what the hunters have turned into. RugBug may have seen a dressage test with a rear in it place over an obediant non eventful test.. but I have also seen a hunter with spectacular form place with a number of tight distances over a hunter with nice form that was had a beautiful consistant round. Of course I lay this all at the judges feet...

[eventable]

.So I was reading my roommate's copy of the NZEF bulletin yesterday and there was an article by a show hunter judge talking about points they were looking for - she stated "you must use a correct crest release". Looks like it's now been enshrined here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Judi]

What does NZEF stand for?

[Sebastian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, eventable, but I believe it's:

New Zealand Equestrian Federation

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Judi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sebastian:
Correct me if I'm wrong, eventable, but I believe it's:

New Zealand Equestrian Federation

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ug... If we have to export something why did it have to be that.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Sebastian]

My thoughts exactly... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Seb

[eventable]

Whoops, sorry, yes it is the New Zealand Equestrian Federation.

In my head, I'm calling it the "Dale Pedersen effect" - SH people over here seem to go nuts for him, but from what I've seen him write in one of our local magazines, I'm not sure he's all that!