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View Full Version : Would you buy a horse with this issue? -- pics added!



tennygirl
Jan. 19, 2011, 10:18 AM
Doing a little exploratory horse shopping these days and came across a LOVELY 6 year old 16'2 WB. Very nice mover. Sound and happy -- even in lousy ring conditions. Nicely put together, but does have a SLIGHT toe in on his right front. It does not come from the leg, but from the foot itself (if that makes sense). It is visible but not overly so.

The horse has been raised as a HJ and has never had a problem with soundness (per the owner). Of course, we would x-ray the foot, etc for any major structural issues. But, I wanted to get a general idea if this is something that you all would eliminate a horse from consideration for outright.

I am working on getting some pics from the owner. She is supposed to send them today.

bigbaytb
Jan. 19, 2011, 10:23 AM
Get xrays and have your vet look and have a good and trusted farrier look at the foot.

If he passes a PPE (and a blood test to make sure no pain killers) and xrays and farrier say no problem..then no problem.

Grasshopper
Jan. 19, 2011, 10:32 AM
As a general matter, no, a slight toe-in (in the front) does not bother me. My current mare is a bit toed-in on the RF also, and paddles a tiny bit because of it, but in our 10 years together (she is 18 now) it has never caused her a moment's trouble.

Yes, talk with your vet and farrier, but for me personally, a slight toe-in is way down on my "minor issues" list.

asterix
Jan. 19, 2011, 10:38 AM
I have a horse who toes in ever so slightly on one front foot (does not paddle)...he's been the soundest horse I've ever owned to date, through Training level work, 3 years no issues.

So, no, not if PPE/xrays/farrier tell you it's OK, especially if horse has been jumping successfully.

purplnurpl
Jan. 19, 2011, 10:40 AM
Does the horse paddle?
That is my largest pet peeve of all. I'd pass for that. Vain I know.

but otherwise I'd probably have a look!

netg
Jan. 19, 2011, 11:24 AM
I would definitely get x-rays if I were interested, but would also definitely NOT let it scare me away.


I've known some super sound pigeon toed horses (though this sounds possibly like it's actually a club foot?), super sound club footed horses, too. I just would want to know what's going on with the structure - that will give you a better idea of how it affects things, especially if the horse has been jumping already.

sarah88
Jan. 19, 2011, 11:41 AM
my current horse is slightly toed in on both fronts, legs are straight, moves straight, and his foot lands flat (as opposed to one side hitting and then the other) I have never had soundness issues with him (well he's a little funny right now but that is bc he got himself essentially cast against the fence :/ not related to his legs) so I would say go off the opinion of your vet and farrier, but no It would not scare me away. Also, It depends on the level you want to compete at...

VicariousRider
Jan. 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
Doesn't bother me. Obviously do your due diligence, but if it's slight it's probably more cosmetic than anything else.

tennygirl
Jan. 19, 2011, 03:05 PM
Thanks all.

The only thing the seller said that gave me any pause was that he doesn't flex perfectly on that ankle. 1-2 out of 5. If we go forward, we will definitely have the xrays done. He is such a nice horse otherwise, I would hate to say no to him because of something that isn't a huge issue. But I also don't want to buy a problem if I can avoid it.

We shall see!

retreadeventer
Jan. 19, 2011, 08:01 PM
Don't ever watch the jog at Rolex if a little crookedness bothers anyone. :)

ThirdCharm
Jan. 19, 2011, 08:47 PM
My little TB mare who has gone Intermediate toes in on both fronts. My Irish mare who went Prelim toes in quite a bit on her left front. Both still sound at the ages of 15 and 16. Correct shoeing (keeping them as straight as possible without compromising joint spacing, etc requires baseline xrays, and addressing any flares that develop on the medial side of the hoof so it stays in balance, etc etc) at a regular interval is important of course.

Jennifer

goeslikestink
Jan. 19, 2011, 08:55 PM
Doing a little exploratory horse shopping these days and came across a LOVELY 6 year old 16'2 WB. Very nice mover. Sound and happy -- even in lousy ring conditions. Nicely put together, but does have a SLIGHT toe in on his right front. It does not come from the leg, but from the foot itself (if that makes sense). It is visible but not overly so.

The horse has been raised as a HJ and has never had a problem with soundness (per the owner). Of course, we would x-ray the foot, etc for any major structural issues. But, I wanted to get a general idea if this is something that you all would eliminate a horse from consideration for outright.

I am working on getting some pics from the owner. She is supposed to send them today.

comformation fault - elbows out toes in
elbows in toes out
elbows straight toes striaght

i have a horse thats pigeon toed hes 28 now never had a lame issue he is an ex grade A international show jumper competed all over the world now retired but not lame
lots of horses that i know that are show jumpers or eventers have a dish which is toes out or pigeon toes which is toes in not a problem
but horses do need to have a qualfied farrier to balance the foot correctly
not a trimmmer or un qualified person

would i buy another with toes in or out not a problem as long as the horse can do what i want it to not bothered

Joannie Jumper
Jan. 19, 2011, 09:24 PM
Have xrays and ask a vet - like a LEG VET not some country vet who delivers foals (not that those are not great vets but find one with jumping - horse history and experience) even if you just want to call and pay him to pick his brain or something. I do not like the flex problem you mention..... but I would not say NO right away... I would explore it with advice from a few pros. He may not flex properly because he may need the right work and trim.

I do think horses can go barefoot and in shoes. I am not necesarily a barefoot only person BUT I had two horses with hoof issues that were mid level - one mare was slightly turned in with one foot and the foot also tended to get a little clubby. She went barefoot and was trimmed every other week and her flex issues were never an issue as long as she was kept trimmed often. The other horse was straight but he had a clubbish foot and basically he came to me unsound at age 9 and was a very talented jumper. We took his shoes off and also trimmed him every 2 weeks on that foot. The young man I sold him to has that shoe reset every 2 weeks to keep that foot trimmed.

Petstorejunkie
Jan. 19, 2011, 10:21 PM
being someone who is pro xray for hoof health and trim and shoe my own... doesn't bug me a bit!

Somermist
Jan. 19, 2011, 10:29 PM
Get xrays and have your vet look and have a good and trusted farrier look at the foot.

If he passes a PPE (and a blood test to make sure no pain killers) and xrays and farrier say no problem..then no problem.

This. Good luck.

4Martini
Jan. 19, 2011, 11:23 PM
My nearly 22 yo has two front feet you would swear came from different horses. He has been very sound for me over the years. I would Xray and consult a good farrier like others have said, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

EventerAJ
Jan. 20, 2011, 11:27 AM
Toeing in doesn't bother me much at all. My 2-star/adv mare toes in and paddles a little, but it has not affected her soundness one bit (she's now 13). I've known another Intermediate WB who paddles like a duck (he would literally knock the rails of dressage rings at times) but it also never bothered him. Quite a shock watching him down centerline, though!

When critiqueing limb conformation, it is important to acknowledge the whole horse. A forehand-heavy animal will stress those crooked legs more than a balanced individual. Small, tiny feet will compound problems. But a horse who uses his hind end, lands squarely on each foot, ridden in balance, can overcome a lot of limb deformities.

Mary in Area 1
Jan. 21, 2011, 12:05 AM
Thanks all.

The only thing the seller said that gave me any pause was that he doesn't flex perfectly on that ankle. 1-2 out of 5. If we go forward, we will definitely have the xrays done. He is such a nice horse otherwise, I would hate to say no to him because of something that isn't a huge issue. But I also don't want to buy a problem if I can avoid it.

We shall see!

Everyone is saying not a problem and I agree, UNTIL you wrote this! If the horse shows soreness on flexion in the ankle, then it IS a leg problem, not just a foot problem.

If you really like the horse, get the xrays done and consult with a vet and farrier. Could be just a poor trim is causing jamming in P1 and P2. BUT, it could be the start of ringbone, and if that's the case, I'D RUN!

tennygirl
Jan. 21, 2011, 01:04 PM
Yes, Mary, that is exactly what my vet said. Sigh. I really like this horse. A lot. He is a very sweet boy and I think he would be a great partner with some eventing miles. He was amazingly sound, even in the lousy footing I tried him in, very genuine, very willing. He is a little bigger than I really wanted. I almost didn't look at him, but he doesn't feel big if that makes any sense.

BUT, part of my looking for a new horse is because my current horse has a leg injury that we are rehabbing. I hate to knowingly buy another problem, even if he is sound right now this problem could be an issue down the road, in which case I will end up with TWO horses with leg issues.

:(

2ndyrgal
Jan. 21, 2011, 08:36 PM
Ok, so he's not perfect.... hell honey, they're like men, there are good ones and bad ones, no perfect ones, and they are all one bad step away from being a pasture pet. My OTTB show hunter was pigeon towed, and had the biggest rear ankle you've ever seen. He pinned his ears, did not like to be groomed and would not ever go into any wash stall, no matter how big, light or non scary it was. Would jump into the back of the pickup if he thought he was going to a show, would throw a fit if the trailer left without him. Never ever refused a fence. Ever. Was buried on the hill at the age of 27 and never took a lame step.
I worked at both TB and STB racetracks for years and saw as many possible conformation defects as you could possibly imagine (and some you couldn't) on horses that were racing sound. A foot would bother me less than a leg and some vets can make a sound horse flex a bit sore (think Saphire).


You already like him, he's the one, that if something ever did happen, you'd likely not regret one day of rehab with. Sounds like a cool guy.
So xray him to rule out anything really bad, then make them an offer you can live with if he doesn't stay sound forever.


But I bet he does.

bornfreenowexpensive
Jan. 21, 2011, 09:12 PM
Get xrays. Toeing in ...wouldn't bother me at all. Mildly flexing positive wouldn't scare me much either---especially since you said it was crappy footing he was working in. But I would take a couple of views just to be sure.

CobJockey
Jan. 21, 2011, 09:39 PM
Like others have said, a slight toe-in is likely not going to cause you any issues. I'd take toed-in over toed-out, they tend to interfere more when they're toed-out.

tennygirl
Jan. 24, 2011, 01:56 PM
Pics of the beastie in question:

Legs:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x416/tennygirl/beckettsslegs1.jpg

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x416/tennygirl/beckettslegs2.jpg

Beautiful face:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x416/tennygirl/beckettSMad1.jpg

Confo shot:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x416/tennygirl/beckettConfirmationFinal.jpg

Jump:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x416/tennygirl/beckettjump.jpg

GotSpots
Jan. 24, 2011, 02:48 PM
What do you want him to do? There are many, many, MANY horses competing successfully who do not flex clean, or who have something funky on the xrays, or who occasionally have a bit of a hitch in their get-along. I wouldn't think that hard about one who is aimed at a lower level career who has a mild toe-in who is mildly positive after going in poor footing if everything else looks good. If you're aiming him to be a Rolex horse or he's super expensive, you might expect a bit more "perfect", but for your basic nice horse, with all the other pieces in place, what you've described aren't dealbreakers. No horse is perfect; all horses have something show up, and there are lots and lots of things that can be successfully managed well.

leilatigress
Jan. 24, 2011, 03:08 PM
For what you're doing sounds perfect. Pending passing the PPE and chat with the farrier. Paddling is one thing I can't stand and I have walked away from splay footed and pigeon toed before back when I was showing halter. It does visually bug me though and I have trained my eye not to 'see' it as much now that I'm doing dressage.

ThirdCharm
Jan. 24, 2011, 04:38 PM
I wouldn't even worry about that degree of toed-in. I've see waaaaay worse competing at the upper levels.

Jennifer

tennygirl
Jan. 25, 2011, 01:53 PM
Definitely not aiming at Rolex! He would be doing the lower level stuff - maybe all the way to Training one day but that is a BIG maybe.

I am definitely leaning toward getting the x-rays done to see what we are dealing with.

bornfreenowexpensive
Jan. 25, 2011, 02:20 PM
good looking horse. If you enjoyed riding him (and it seemed from your post that you did)....I would pursue the xray.

His conformation wouldn't have me worried. And I never would rule a horse out just on a positive flexion.

That is definately a face I wouldn't mind seeing every day:)

Ltc4h
Jan. 25, 2011, 03:47 PM
Oh I should send a picture of mine-they almost look @ each other.
For what you want to do get a PPE and use your best judgement-weigh the pros and cons, if everything else is a pro don't try and talk yourself out of him.
From 2007-
Assesment;
This horse has poor confirmation particulary RF for the level he is trained at. Has strange way of moving, odd flight pattern on lunge.
At 22 yrs he is not jumping, but just last weekend rode an Advanced A Dressage test and plan on riding 3rd maybe 4th this season.

RegentLion
Jan. 25, 2011, 09:20 PM
FWIW, I just sold a horse that flexed great. They Xrayed him per their farrier's request for baseline xrays for the future. He had some ringbone starting.

He was never lame and never had issues, and they bought him.

So... flexed FINE, Xrayed with a "start of ringbone." They are giving him supplementation accordingly and are glad they have baseline Xrays.

I have a lower level event horse that I bought with "mild to moderate" arthritis in one hock... but that hadn't changed in 3 years... so I didn't let it bother me... and he flexed perfectly on all 4 legs.

A friend's horse recently was put down because within 2 years of owning him he had no cartilage left in one of his hocks. His PPE was flawless... nothing showed up in flexions or Xrays.

Flexions, Xrays, history, future use, how much you like the horse, think about it all... you can make educated choices but no choice is bulletproof. I mean, pasture accident could happen tomorrow....

speculation07
Feb. 4, 2011, 11:23 AM
I agree with Regent, as long as there is nothing too serious you should be just fine. I passed up on a horse because with some fairly minor issues that came up on the PPE and xrays as a 7 year old and bought a 4 year old with a perfect PPE and xrays... Three weeks later the baby injured himself in the field had surgery and a 50% percent chance of returning back to work ever.

So in my opinion ANYTHING can happen if you like him and the price reflects what he is worth go for it. If he is a resale project then just remember prospective buyers would probably have the same concerns when your ready to sell. I live in hunterland so I tend to be more picky than from an event perspective with confo.

Good Luck he is cute!

Emmas Hot Brass
Feb. 4, 2011, 12:56 PM
Ok, so he's not perfect.... hell honey, they're like men, there are good ones and bad ones, no perfect ones, and they are all one bad step away from being a pasture pet. My OTTB show hunter was pigeon towed, and had the biggest rear ankle you've ever seen. He pinned his ears, did not like to be groomed and would not ever go into any wash stall, no matter how big, light or non scary it was. Would jump into the back of the pickup if he thought he was going to a show, would throw a fit if the trailer left without him. Never ever refused a fence. Ever. Was buried on the hill at the age of 27 and never took a lame step.
I worked at both TB and STB racetracks for years and saw as many possible conformation defects as you could possibly imagine (and some you couldn't) on horses that were racing sound. A foot would bother me less than a leg and some vets can make a sound horse flex a bit sore (think Saphire).


You already like him, he's the one, that if something ever did happen, you'd likely not regret one day of rehab with. Sounds like a cool guy.
So xray him to rule out anything really bad, then make them an offer you can live with if he doesn't stay sound forever.


But I bet he does.

This exactly. My horse is toed out a tiny bit (regular shoeing makes it unnoticable) and he has some bog old scar tissue on his back left ankle. He wasn't the most beautiful, and the Vet didn't love him, but his xrays were clean, and he was in my price range. and he's the best decision I've ever made.

CarCat
Feb. 4, 2011, 01:36 PM
My girl is toed in a bit more than that, she was a jumper in her younger days to 5' and trained 4th level dressage before I got her - never had a problem with it. (and she still easily jumps the fences if her dinner is late!)

Mine flexes ok though - I'd get the xrays done and then you can stop worrying about it!

My farrier actually said its fairly common for WBs to have a slight toe in that doesn't involve the leg, but I'm not sure if thats true, or just for the ones hes seen here!