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View Full Version : Anyone know of a "Wenglish"-bred horse eventing?



pwynnnorman
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:15 AM
We're looking at a "hunt seat under saddle" appendix AQHA, bred to the nines for that specific role. Tall, leggy conformation, decent movement (big trot; nice, open stride -- but both produced , i.e. ridden, from that "wenglish" downhill topline...although I am not sure that the conformation itself is downhill). Picked up and pulled together, the picture looks perfectly acceptable, BUT there is a possibility that "picked up and pulled together" contributes to behavioral issues in this particular horse. (Could they stem from being asked to go in a frame not designed for that body?)

If you haven't seen this class, here is an example (prepare yourself):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTW8cVxP8Ho&feature=related

HOWEVER, please also look at this horse (the 2nd gray), who is built far more like the horse we're looking at (than the ones in the previous clip): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqMTokSZzmk&feature=related

If you are curious about this industry, here's a clinic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62VAzVbMTjU

The horse being considered has generations of AQHA and TB breeding chosen to excel at this. For example, even in great weight, the "greyhound" conformation is evident. I cannot tell from what I've seen if its conformation is super downhill. Again, when its topline is raised, it can look very correct for other sports, but I just don't know what the influence of all that breeding for this very specialized sport would or has had on such horses' abilities to perform in other sports.

Anyone out there with experience with this?

sdlbredfan
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:36 AM
There is a thread in (I think) off course from someone who has such a horse which is competititve except (QH) judges keep marking him down for being thin. I will see if I can find the thread and PM you, perhaps if the two of you chat/PM whatever that may be of help?

RodeoQueen
Jan. 16, 2011, 08:02 AM
Are you looking for an appendix HUS horse to event or asking if they have any ability to event? Or are you asking about breeding?

Parrotnutz
Jan. 16, 2011, 08:29 AM
I would be glad to help with any questions you may have. I own appendix horses and have my whole life. Mostly show USEF. As well as movement they are bred for temperment so who the QH lines are is important.
Much will depend on conformation.....many have a neck that seems to come out of the chest,and they are hard to bring up.
Take a look in my webshots album then PM me any questions or video of the horse in question and I would be happy to help. I am an amateur so not looking to steal your horse LOL

PS,,,the first video of Coats N Socks...that mare was sold for approx 60K on the AQHA!

I will be gone all day so won't answer you til tonight.

Mukluk
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:24 AM
If you haven't seen this class, here is an example (prepare yourself):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTW8cVxP8Ho&feature=related


The way of going looks so unnatural to me. Well at the least, the horse would probably be thrilled to get rid of the big fake tail.

eponacowgirl
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:51 AM
If you're looking to event this horse, make sure you check the feet VERY, VERY CAREFULLY in a PPE. I bought a lovely pleasure-bred paint for a client and she has awful feet and has to wear special shoes and is still quick off the ground jumping.

I have a handful of pleasure-type horses in my barn for students and they're never going to be incredible upper level competitors, but they're great at the lower levels, consistent, brave and fun to play with outside of the show ring.

yellowbritches
Jan. 16, 2011, 01:17 PM
Now, take this with a grain of salt, as I really don't know much at all about our horse's breeding, but we have a little mare that was probably bred for that purpose. She isn't nearly so tall (15.3 on a tall day), but she is a leggy little thing with a big swingy trot and I always call her the "TB mare" rather than the "QH" mare...she LOOKS like a TB, and her bloodlines makes her basically 7/8s TB (despite being registered AQHA...go figure).

She is NOT downhill and is quite the athlete. Big jump, terrific mover, with a very trainable brain and willingness to please. Love her to pieces. Now, although she's getting a late start to her eventing career (last year was her first year at 10), she hasn't had that type of training (for the HUS classes)...at least not since she was much, much younger. She's taken to correct dressage work like a fish to water, and is one of our best scoring, performing horses in the barn (helps that she has what I consider a common mare tendency- the desire to "show off" when she's in the spotlight!).

Our mare will easily be a prelim horse, as long as her rider's nerves don't get the better of them. I think if someone else had had her from an earlier age, I would not be surprised if she would have gone further than that.

fordtraktor
Jan. 16, 2011, 01:41 PM
I bought a colt of similar breeding this year to as a hunter prospect. They are typically not downhill. My colt is just now because he's in a growth spurt but wasn't at 3 days or 3 months. ;) And I don't expect he will be, neither his sire or dam was downhill. Not UPhill, perhaps, but certainly level is desirable in a HUS horse. If it is downhill it will travel "strung out" and too heavy on the forehand, which believe it or not is considered a fault for AQHA. He's a great mover and just floats. My colt's neck comes out of his neck a bit higher than ideal for an AQHA horse but perfect for a hunter. Might be a bit low for a dressage horse but no lower than the average TB.

I like this breeding a lot for a performance horse, maybe not a 4* horse but I think they could do well for the average ammie. My colt's sire did a couple of lower-level events back in the early 90's with his amateur owner I think. My colt's mind is so incredibly fabulous -- he is the quietest, best-mannered thing in my barn and he's only 8 months old. He will be easy to break when the time comes. It is such a pleasure to work with him after my last couple high-maintenance TBs. I love a good TB but my last two, both of whom I still have, are real prima donnas. (This colt is about 5/8ths TB.) After I let them out and the TBs are running around the field bucking and blowing off steam, I can lead him out quietly and he meanders over to a hay pile with a "dude, what's your problem?" look on his face. Priceless!

GotSpots
Jan. 16, 2011, 04:36 PM
You have to look at the horse in front of you - they can't read the pedigree anyway. If this horse, that you're looking at, is decently put together, good feet, good brain, decent movement, no reason why it couldn't event some just because it might have been bred to do something else. If it moves downhill and has teeny tiny feet, than you might take a pass on it.

My advanced horse was technically an appendix - he was Paint-TB, and the Paint bloodlines all went back to QH and TB. On paper, I wouldn't have guessed he'd want to jump with his knees to his eyeballs. But he did, just about every time, and made time XC to boot. I've known a bunch of just lovely appendix horses who were wonderful BN-T partners and a joy to be around as well - easy brains, fun, straightforward horses. A lot of them probably would have topped out at Preliminary, but their riders were done at Training or Novice, so it was win-win situations and a bunch of great horses to have in the barn. I've also seen some appendix things that I don't think would stay sound at BN, and with a stride about 8 feet long on their best days. So end of the day, it's all about the individual. If you like it, if it looks like a good match for what you want to do, don't let the papers (or lack thereof) hold you back.

Parrotnutz
Jan. 16, 2011, 04:59 PM
You have to look at the horse in front of you - they can't read the pedigree anyway. If this horse, that you're looking at, is decently put together, good feet, good brain, decent movement, no reason why it couldn't event some just because it might have been bred to do something else. If it moves downhill and has teeny tiny feet, than you might take a pass on it.

My advanced horse was technically an appendix - he was Paint-TB, and the Paint bloodlines all went back to QH and TB. On paper, I wouldn't have guessed he'd want to jump with his knees to his eyeballs. But he did, just about every time, and made time XC to boot. I've known a bunch of just lovely appendix horses who were wonderful BN-T partners and a joy to be around as well - easy brains, fun, straightforward horses. A lot of them probably would have topped out at Preliminary, but their riders were done at Training or Novice, so it was win-win situations and a bunch of great horses to have in the barn. I've also seen some appendix things that I don't think would stay sound at BN, and with a stride about 8 feet long on their best days. So end of the day, it's all about the individual. If you like it, if it looks like a good match for what you want to do, don't let the papers (or lack thereof) hold you back.



The reason I asked for the breeding.....some are known to pass on not so great brains and are harder to train. One stallion seems to pass on crooked legs, etc. So thats where I look at breeding. Others are sensationally brained and the sire is known to pass it on.
I have a friend who bought an "Artful Investment" baby.....at age 5 he has yet to ever do anything really spooky or have any of "those" moments.....He is amazing and I think although not the hack winner is going to make up to be an awesome over fence horse. He is 16.3 and still growing.
My mare's sire is a TB "Alota Gator Bait"....he seems to stamp them all with great bone and size and great brains. He QH dam 's lineage is also known for brains and a little flash added in.
My chestnut is by "Do You Have a Mnute.....incredable brain and movement.

pwynnnorman
Jan. 16, 2011, 06:55 PM
I would be glad to help with any questions you may have. I own appendix horses and have my whole life. Mostly show USEF. .

Actually, I didn't mean appendix AQHAs at all. I've know a lot of those. IIRC, Quartermaster was an Advanced eventer--was Mike Huber the rider? I think he came from out west...

I'm wondering about the shall-we-say "phenotype" that is today's hsus horse: very tall, very leggy, often a bit ladywasted (not jsut from their "fitness" program), naturally low-headed in carriage (but I am clueless about whether that's always associated with downhill conformation--that's kinda central to my questions, in fact).

eventer_mi
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:03 PM
Wynn, my former Paint gelding was bred for that (Impressive on top, Three Bars on the bottom) and he recently got Reserve Amateur Champion at the AECs in BN for his new owner. He was started Wenglish when i got him, I evented him through novice, and now his new owner has recently won her first novice on him with a score of 29.

He's a packer and a half. Incredible mind on that horse, will jump anything you ask of him, and is fancy enough to place well in dressage. He did develop some hock issues that were easily taken care of with a yearly injection - he is a bit sickle hocked. great feet.

pwynnnorman
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:05 PM
I'm glad to hear the positives, especially about them NOT being downhill necessarily. It is so hard to tell from a video what is being produced and what has been bred into a horse.

I admit I find this particular corner of the AQHA industry to be pretty fascinating. I know it is a very popular division (hey, I never laugh at AQHA's when it comes to the money they can both bring and earn!) It's quite awesome how those folks seem to know exactly what they want, for the most part, and turn around and breed it so consistently. Moreover, some of the trots you see are pretty impressive (in a TB type of way).

Anyone know of any competitive hunt seat horses who've done any jumping--any at all, not necessarily just eventing. Hunting, maybe? Or perhaps retired to do pony club or local showing? The one we were looking at doesn't look very "powerful" over the jumps, for example (a totally ridiculous conclusion to draw from just a few pictures, but, well, it just sets you to wondering, y'know what I mean?).

netg
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:47 PM
It was the early 90's, but I had a former halter horse (he was born early 80's, so not the Impressive type of bulky muscles, rather a lot of lean muscle) - he had placed top 10 as a baby at the World show. I was 10th in the nation on him in hunter hack, won state championships in HUS, etc. He wasn't wasp waisted, and it was when they were very strict about not allowing ears below withers (I wish they stayed strict!), but he did well. We started riding English and jumping him when I got him at 9, and it was *easy* for him. He was by far the most powerful horse I've ever ridden, and 4' was very easy for him. (But the highest I was willing to jump!) He had no idea stopping was even an option, so never tried, and we went on trail rides - if something was in the way, we just went over it. No intentional x-country jumps, just downed trees, built up brush from water runoff, etc.

I have fallen in love with TBs because of my current horse, but I was hoping to find an Appendix QH when I started looking - one who just couldn't manage that low headset so easily, who could move forward and learn, with a lack of "no" in its vocabulary.


I agree with careful vet checks - a lot of horses who are ridden this way are started too hard too early. You want one who wasn't, or who has great legs/feet despite it.

Typically, a horse who can do well in this style of riding will have the ability to really push from behind to jump if sound. However, you have to get the idea of contact, of bringing the head up, etc., into the horse's head first. I'm curious about the "behavior problems" - depending what they are, could be a result of the training, but could also be a sign of a physical problem from making the horse go in what may not be its most natural carriage.

fordtraktor
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:16 PM
I'm interested in the behavioral problems too. It is hard to say whether they stem from poor training (in ANY frame) or pain, but could be either and would be a red flag. Most QHs have really forgiving personalities and will take a lot of abuse without rising to the level of "behavioral problems" so that is a real concern here.

On the other hand, I taught a fabulous AQHA horse to jump many years ago, and he was an unsuccessful HUS horse because his attitude didn't fit with the program. I could get him to go around with his head down fine, but he was not easy. He just wanted to be treated decently and couldn't stand to have his face ripped off. Can't say I blamed him. Nice, nice horse though if you could figure him out. If this horse has that type of "behavioral problem" and you have the right rider, he could be a real find.

pwynnnorman
Jan. 17, 2011, 07:39 AM
I'd rather not give more details about the circumstances, but I really appreciate this information--learning a lot. Thanks.

I can only add that the horse goes in the hsus frame even when not under saddle. It's topline is an absolutely perfect, uninterrupted, smooth arc from the tip of its nose to the base of its tail. It carries its back naturally rounded and its rump is shaped in a way that flows smoothly from the roundness of its back. It's the naturalness of that "arched" topline that makes me just wonder--although there are certainly other possibilities--whether adjusting it might cause it discomfort. (BTW, it is a beautiful animal: strikingly well built, except for the ladywaistedness.)


it was when they were very strict about not allowing ears below withers (I wish they stayed strict!)

What the heck happened to that "rule" anyway? Did they rescind it or just slip into ignoring it?

Long Shadow Farm
Jan. 17, 2011, 08:16 AM
I have a pleasure bred gelding that I event on. He is by Passing It Along who is a full brother to Barpasser's Image (sire of Invitation Only.... a big big pleasure sire) and out of a Zippo's Smokey daughter (Zippo Pine Bar bred). My guy is 16.2hh, uphill built and can jump the freaking moon. He has evented through Training with me but could easily do Prelim or up with someone else who had time and the courage to event higher. I have see him lope around 4'6" courses in schooling with no problems. We have free jumped him over 5' and he is so whatever about it, it's almost scarey.

I would soooo jump at another one any day of the week. You cannot bet their minds and trainability. Might not be the fanciest movers for dressage at times, but they soooo want to please.

Bobbi

netg
Jan. 17, 2011, 08:53 AM
What the heck happened to that "rule" anyway? Did they rescind it or just slip into ignoring it?

The super low headset had been en vogue prior to that, and I think the folks in charge who said "HEY! Not ok!" ended up just getting overruled to where it was allowed. I really don't know anyone who actually thinks it looks good or does anything for the horses, but rather people do it because they want to win and think they have to have the low headset to do so. My former trainer switched to mostly Arabians because he hated it, even if his students did win regularly.


I wouldn't necessarily look for a horse who travelled in that way naturally, but it can also come from never being turned out and always being made to travel that way. I've seen trainers who essentially try to atrophy all muscles except those which will make a horse travel in the shape you describe. That's when I would be most concerned, because the trainers I've seen do that to their horses have a string of nearly crippled horses by the time they're four.

If a horse does naturally travel that way, it's not too far off from a training level body carriage, so I would look at swing through the back and bend in the hocks. If the horse can canter without a major on the forehand head bob, and bends its hocks looking like it can get its legs under itself rather than dragging along on the forehand, I would guess that getting out of forced headset mode, pushing the horse forward, doing lateral work (I'm guessing this horse has no lateral bend in its body, ever?), and just dressage basics plus gymnastics over fences can help it.

RodeoQueen
Jan. 17, 2011, 09:08 AM
We breed and show appendix quarter horses AND WB Dressage horses - so i have knowledge of both. And let me tell you, we DO NOT breed downhill horses. Nor do we ride them down hill. In virtually every discipline, you can find a horse built downhill or ridden in this manner.

Many appendix quarter horses make fine jumpers and compete USEF and now, are competing USDF as well. Not every appendix horse has the suspension and talent to show Grand Prix, but neither does every warmblood :).

You can see baby pics of my Artful Investment - he's gorgeous and uphill. he can "hang his head out" if asked to follow his bridle or be up, depending upon what i ask. He's extremely athletic and forward but is not a horse for novice rider. Mine will also jump the moon but not sure he has the right mindset for eventing - although maybe. I just don't have the courage :).

http://pets.webshots.com/album/129823491mrWZme

Also in this album, there are some pics of my appendix foal.


Many appendix quarter horses are 3/4 or more TB. And not every quarter horse has a pocket pet disposition - just like every other breed in the world, there are exceptions.

Where an appendix or wb carries the head is also about how the horse is ridden. :) Same with the downhill ride. If the rider is good enough to ride from tail to the bit, then the horse will move uphill unless there is a confirmation flaw.

ThirdCharm
Jan. 17, 2011, 09:56 AM
I would PPE the HECK out of any horse that had that background.... 2-3 hours/day of longeing, long-lining, hotwalking, and riding on long yearlings.... yike. Hoof xrays for navicular. And hock xrays. If it is over three and doing the Wenglish thing, it is probably on injections already.

Although they are not downhill per se, I've not personally seen a 'succesful' Wenglish horse that learned to carry itself with its neck above its withers later in life, because they _tend_ to be very much naturally low-headed with the neck coming out of the front of the chest--it is easier to have them go that way if they are built that way. But a horse that is built a little higher and was intensively trained to carry itself low could learn..... you have to look at the individual. However, if I was looking at a potential breeding animal I would keep in mind that the individual might nonetheless have generations of not-so-well conformed horses in its background.


Jennifer

alicen
Jan. 17, 2011, 10:01 AM
The optometrist told me I'd have to get used to my new glasses, but would someone, please, tell me where the "english" is, other than saddles and clothing, in the op's videos?

vineyridge
Jan. 17, 2011, 10:22 AM
Don't know if he's Wenglish bred, but Acapulco Jazz ran Rolex a couple of years ago. And he is a QH top and bottom, with heavy TB influence.

RodeoQueen
Jan. 17, 2011, 10:38 AM
Thirdcharm, my appendix horse is 9 yrs old and has no navicular or hock injections in fact, NONE of our horses do here and some are western pleasure horses who OMG, go SLOWW. Nor are they longed 3 hrs a day, put on a hotwalker and ridden as yearlings. Boo. Not fair to make blanket statements especially when you don't have enough knowledge on the subject.

Generalizations can be cruel, so let's try to be fair, ok? There are some nasty people in every equine breed and every discipline, but those nasty buggers do not account for the majority.

ThirdCharm
Jan. 17, 2011, 02:14 PM
Oh, come off the high horse. If I said you should PPE an OTTB because they get overworked at a young age you wouldn't bat an eye.... Sure, EVERYONE doesn't do it.... but it is not an UNCOMMON practice by any means and any buyer who is not aware of the pitfalls most common in the discipline they're buying from is just asking to get screwed.

I'm only speaking from personal experience regarding horses from barns that compete at Nationally rated AQHA shows including congress and worlds with "big name" QH trainers. YMMV.

Jennifer

Parrotnutz
Jan. 17, 2011, 06:00 PM
Oh, come off the high horse. If I said you should PPE an OTTB because they get overworked at a young age you wouldn't bat an eye.... Sure, EVERYONE doesn't do it.... but it is not an UNCOMMON practice by any means and any buyer who is not aware of the pitfalls most common in the discipline they're buying from is just asking to get screwed.

I'm only speaking from personal experience regarding horses from barns that compete at Nationally rated AQHA shows including congress and worlds with "big name" QH trainers. YMMV.

Jennifer

First for all who don't know it is the World Show, not Worlds, get your lingo straight :cool:

Ok now that we cleared that up.....I think we all can agree that crappy stuff is done to horses in all the different disciplines by *some*
My old trainer used to say....Hunter/jumper folks lame in in the front and dressage folks lame them in the hind and eventers, well all over....take your pick.
Some use drugs, some use draw reins, some inject. I was recently visiting a hunter jumper barn where the pro was telling me how some of the horses get injected 4 times a year to keep them going....sigh.

Unfortunately the AQHA places the most value on their junior horses....horses 5 and under. There are Huge money futurities and money classes at age 2 and 3. There is a 100,000. hunter under saddle class for age 2.

So yes one has to beware like in any discipline. That being said it seems each horse didn't read COTH....my best AQHA hunter over fences did his show career in AQHA before I bought him at age 4....he had been to more states than I have yet to travel too and he stayed sound until he was 18 and then broke a leg :(
My most unsound AQHA horse I bought at 2.6 yrs old just backed....he is a pasture ornament with OCD in his shoulder so work did not get him.
None of the QH's I have owned in 30 years have had navicular...so again they didn't read the boards...and many had huge steps and made it down the lines with me praying whoa and they were Not running, LOL

That being said the only thing that bothers me is this horse is decribed as coming out with a "frame" for a tp line.,...I have seen that in some western horses and it ain't pretty and they were all pretty sore....would have to see a picture.

Ps: I did not show the over fence horses in AQHA but USEF

ThirdCharm
Jan. 17, 2011, 08:46 PM
Acapulco Jazz was a racebred QH.

Jennifer