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Mrs.ChickenBritches
Jan. 15, 2011, 10:15 PM
I cant get the search function to work with more than one word so forgive me if this question has been answered over and over.

If you have a horse that seems like they might be a little colicky and you cant get through to the vet and you have just noticed that your stock of Banamine is gone, will Bute do anything to make the horse comfortable until you can get the vet?

Note: I do not have a colicking horse right now but I did notice that I am out of Banamine and wont be able to get any until Monday.

deltawave
Jan. 15, 2011, 11:00 PM
I always wonder how well orally-dosed meds are going to work if a horse is colicking. I guess I would use bute orally if I had nothing else on hand, but I'd prefer to give Banamine IV or in a pinch (yes, I know about the risk of abscess) IM if I think a horse is really in distress because I've just got to believe it would work faster and more predictably.

Other than the speed of oral/gastric absorption, which I do not know right off hand and which might be different in a relevant way in this scenario, I pretty much consider bute and banamine identical.

davistina67
Jan. 15, 2011, 11:10 PM
I always wonder how well orally-dosed meds are going to work if a horse is colicking. I guess I would use bute orally if I had nothing else on hand, but I'd prefer to give Banamine IV or in a pinch (yes, I know about the risk of abscess) IM if I think a horse is really in distress because I've just got to believe it would work faster and more predictably.

HUH, IM faster?

Ghazzu
Jan. 15, 2011, 11:28 PM
Pharmacokinetically speaking, the interval between administration and onset of effect is roughly equivalent for flunixin meglumine administered either PO or IM.

davistina67
Jan. 15, 2011, 11:30 PM
Pharmacokinetically speaking, the interval between administration and onset of effect is roughly equivalent for flunixin meglumine administered either PO or IM.

But to say IM is faster would be crazy. Unless there is some study I'm not aware of.

fivehorses
Jan. 15, 2011, 11:32 PM
As it goes, I always understood that banamine worked best on the gi tract, and bute on the musko skeltal.

merrygoround
Jan. 16, 2011, 02:31 AM
Pharmacokinetically speaking, the interval between administration and onset of effect is roughly equivalent for flunixin meglumine administered either PO or IM.

Beautifully written!!

Matches my "field experience" with flunixin meglumine and acepromazine. Sure i/v is faster, I just have to remember which side of jugular to tourniquet off. Not the same as people's arms. :lol: :lol: Years ago, I made a local practitioner's day. :lol:

rcloisonne
Jan. 16, 2011, 08:24 AM
Pharmacokinetically speaking, the interval between administration and onset of effect is roughly equivalent for flunixin meglumine administered either PO or IM.
However, risks aside, you know the horse received the full dose via the IM route.

deltawave
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:49 AM
As rcloissone said, my fear with using drugs orally in a situation where the gut is working poorly or not at all is getting ANY effect. IV would be my first choice and is doubtless the fastest, then IM or PO would be sort of weighing the pros and cons. In the case of banamine the risk of abscess vs. the risk of the drug not working.

My little Shetland had a mild colic a couple of months after I got her. I called the vet, he said "can you find her jugular?" and I said "I'm not sure, that's one small and very hairy pony!". :lol: I also didn't know how she'd be and was by myself, so I told him I wasn't sure I'd feel OK with it. He said "give it IM and she's going to get up and start eating in 20 minutes". Sure enough! :lol:

davistina67
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:05 AM
Why would a vet prescribe banamine liq instead of paste? It doesn't make sense to me to inject something into a horses muscle that can kill them?

Ghazzu
Jan. 16, 2011, 11:25 AM
However, risks aside, you know the horse received the full dose via the IM route.

If *I* give oral medication, I know the horse got a full dose. :D

whbar158
Jan. 16, 2011, 11:42 AM
I would rather have to give a little extra PO than the risk with IM with banamine. If the mouth doesn't have anything in it they usually get the full dose easily unless I don't pay attention and shoot it out the other side.....opps but then you just give some more.

Blondyb
Jan. 16, 2011, 11:51 AM
I don't use bute. Period. For anything.

Bute has too many risks and considering it is like aspirin in people anyways, it is not going to mask much pain. Therefore, if the horse is in a lot of pain, it is not going to do much in regards to the pain. Also, and yes, I know EVERYTHING is listed as a carcinogen nowadays, bute is listed as a carcinogen. I am sure giving it every now and again would be ok, but long term use (along with other side effects) I think that it could be damaging and cause more damage than your treating.

I have known people who throw bute at their horse at least 3 times a month because oh, there horse scratched themselves, or oh, he is limping a tad bit.

For colic however, banamine would be best. I don't think bute would really help the situation.

deltawave
Jan. 16, 2011, 12:25 PM
Blondyb, I hate to be the one to tell you, but bute and banamine are essentially identical in class, mode of action, risks, etc. If you are using banamine thinking you're getting away with avoiding the potential risks of bute . . . you're not. It is about as safe, or as dangerous, as aspirin, in fact. Lots of upsides, lots of downsides. You can (or should) really never say "never" in medicine because sure as shooting, something can or will come up to prove you wrong. :)

We don't use medications orally in humans when their GI tract is not functioning. This is the reason I pause when considering it in a horse with colic. Of course I realize that all colics are the same--a mild spasmodic colic probably does not immpact GI absorption, etc. the way a full-blown toxic-type of mechanical colic would. It merely makes me wonder. I know for sure when I give something IV that it's going to be getting where it needs to go. And I have a healthy respect for the risks of IM, too, but as with EVERYTHING ELSE, you have to weigh the pros and cons. It may "not make sense" unless you have a healthy respect and experience with how complicated this kind of decision can be. Personally I avoid dogma and the words "never" and "always" in medicine like . . . well, the plague. ;)

merrygoround
Jan. 16, 2011, 02:56 PM
It has been my assumption that giving medication sublingually had the purpose of having it absorbed through the mucosa. It takes a little extra care (and lucK) to avoid getting it on the tongue. So essentially, it is not being absorbed in the GI tract, but long before then.

I'd be deighted to have Ghazzu weigh in on this.

deltawave
Jan. 16, 2011, 03:23 PM
I wasn't aware of effective mucosal absorption of NSAIDs in horses but it would certainly make sense if it could be used that way. We give aspirin rectally all the time. But I'd still wonder how often that is done properly, having witnessed many attempts (but few successful ones) at sublingual/mucosal drug administration by horse owners. :)

Mrs.ChickenBritches
Jan. 16, 2011, 03:27 PM
I am medically challenged so most of this thread is going just over my head.

I do know that you can give ace orally vs IM and get the same effect although it takes longer to achieve. I'm sure, though, that ace is probably not the same kind of make up as the nsaids.

S A McKee
Jan. 16, 2011, 03:37 PM
I have known people who throw bute at their horse at least 3 times a month because oh, there horse scratched themselves, or oh, he is limping a tad bit.

.

That often??

You do know that many show horses get bute 3 or more times a WEEK? Some even get it twice a day. Are you shocked?

Here is my vet's position on bute or really anything orally in a horse having a colic attack: Don't bother. You have no idea how the medication is going to be absorbed. IM or IV is the way to go.
Because the GI system is already in trouble her position is avoid giving anything that could irritate the GI tract further.

I'll ask her again about the mucosa issue but my recollection is she felt it's very hard to prevent it from getting on the tongue and being swallowed immediately. You really don't know how much of the dose your horse got.

baywithwhite
Jan. 16, 2011, 03:42 PM
That often??
Here is my vet's position on bute or really anything orally in a horse having a colic attack: Don't bother. You have no idea how the medication is going to be absorbed. IM or IV is the way to go.
Because the GI system is already in trouble her position is avoid giving anything that could irritate the GI tract further.


But I thought the effects of bute or banamine were the same on the GI tract no matter how they are administered??

merrygoround
Jan. 16, 2011, 03:47 PM
But I thought the effects of bute or banamine were the same on the GI tract no matter how they are administered??

Ditto!

That would include percutaneous ( through the skin).

farmgirl598
Jan. 16, 2011, 03:57 PM
Why would a vet prescribe banamine liq instead of paste? It doesn't make sense to me to inject something into a horses muscle that can kill them?

Banamine kills? I have several horses who are veterinary miracles......and THE VETS gave them the banamine. Please clarify, as I don't think i quite understand what you're saying. Banamine paste might be useless if the horse's gi tract is already compromised by colic.

Ghazzu
Jan. 16, 2011, 04:24 PM
It has been my assumption that giving medication sublingually had the purpose of having it absorbed through the mucosa. It takes a little extra care (and lucK) to avoid getting it on the tongue. So essentially, it is not being absorbed in the GI tract, but long before then.

I'd be deighted to have Ghazzu weigh in on this.


IIRC, the reference I saw that looked at onset of effect PO vs IM was using the injectable formulation to squirt in the mouth.

My guess is that the absorption of the drug was via the oral mucosa.

Ghazzu
Jan. 16, 2011, 04:27 PM
Banamine kills? I have several horses who are veterinary miracles......and THE VETS gave them the banamine. Please clarify, as I don't think i quite understand what you're saying. Banamine paste might be useless if the horse's gi tract is already compromised by colic.


Flunixin meglumine rarely kills, but clostridial myonecrosis, which is a recognized complication of IM administration can.

Regardless of the route off administration, flunixin is unlikely to be the difference between life and death in a serious colic episode.

baywithwhite
Jan. 16, 2011, 04:38 PM
IIRC, the reference I saw that looked at onset of effect PO vs IM was using the injectable formulation to squirt in the mouth.

My guess is that the absorption of the drug was via the oral mucosa.



Ghazzu, are the effects of either bute or banamine on the GI tract the same regardless of method of administration? Looking at S A Mckee's post her vet seems to be saying that giving them orally is harder on the GI tract which is not my understanding (but I'm not a vet!).

deltawave
Jan. 16, 2011, 04:45 PM
Risk of gastric ulceration is generally considered to be the same regardless of route of administration of NSAIDs, at least in humans.

Blondyb
Jan. 16, 2011, 05:37 PM
I had always heard that bute is worse than banamine but I am always open to learn new things. :)

Unless they need the drugs, my horses don't get them. Knock on wood, so far so good except on a couple of occasions.

davistina67
Jan. 16, 2011, 05:57 PM
Banamine kills? I have several horses who are veterinary miracles......and THE VETS gave them the banamine. Please clarify, as I don't think i quite understand what you're saying. Banamine paste might be useless if the horse's gi tract is already compromised by colic.

Giving Banamine IM is a huge NO, NO. I have not met a vet in the area for years that would say that is ok. I think pretty much every vet has seen a horse die from an IM injection of it. Just not worth the risk to me when you can give oral Banamine paste with the same results. To me if you can't give it IV and you aren't good at giving paste, then most likely you aren't going to be the person that is educated enough to take all the vitals before giving it. Call the vet!

Ghazzu
Jan. 16, 2011, 06:57 PM
Ghazzu, are the effects of either bute or banamine on the GI tract the same regardless of method of administration?

Yes.
It isn't the physical contact of the drug with the GI mucosa, but its mechanism of action that causes the problems.

animaldoc
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:41 PM
Very generally speaking - the route of administration does affect the onset of action. IV is fastest, IM would be next and PO takes the longest. I don't give banamine IM to horses, but I have very rarely to cows.

And it doesn't matter how you give an NSAID, you can still see GI or renal side effects. (In a study in dogs they gave them in an epidural to try and decrease the GI side effects and ALL the dogs got ulcers. Didn't work so well.)

Bute and banamine are both NSAID and are reasonable analgesics in horses. I like bute better for orthopedic pain, and banamine better for GI pain - in part because of banamine's anti-endotoxic effects which should help in colic. In a pinch, if you didn't have banamine, bute would be OK (but again, IV would be better, and with the risks of perivascular bute injection I only like DVMs doing that).

Neither will mask a surgical colic and one dose waiting for your vet isn't going to cause a huge problem.

Grataan
Jan. 16, 2011, 08:01 PM
Very generally speaking - the route of administration does affect the onset of action. IV is fastest, IM would be next and PO takes the longest. I don't give banamine IM to horses, but I have very rarely to cows.

And it doesn't matter how you give an NSAID, you can still see GI or renal side effects. (In a study in dogs they gave them in an epidural to try and decrease the GI side effects and ALL the dogs got ulcers. Didn't work so well.)

Bute and banamine are both NSAID and are reasonable analgesics in horses. I like bute better for orthopedic pain, and banamine better for GI pain - in part because of banamine's anti-endotoxic effects which should help in colic. In a pinch, if you didn't have banamine, bute would be OK (but again, IV would be better, and with the risks of perivascular bute injection I only like DVMs doing that).

Neither will mask a surgical colic and one dose waiting for your vet isn't going to cause a huge problem.

Well said AD. And thanks for the nightmares about clients getting ahold of injectable bute. :eek::eek::eek:

animaldoc
Jan. 16, 2011, 08:11 PM
Well said AD. And thanks for the nightmares about clients getting ahold of injectable bute. :eek::eek::eek:

Ha! No kidding....once you've seen a neck slough you'll never hand that stuff out willingly (hopefully)....... :-)

MKW
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:24 PM
My older gelding is allergic to banamine, so when he has mild colic symptoms I do give him bute. Within about 1 hour he is back to feeling fine. I generally have a conversation with my vet before giving the bute, but this has worked for my gelding several times.

farmgirl598
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:41 PM
Giving Banamine IM is a huge NO, NO. I have not met a vet in the area for years that would say that is ok. I think pretty much every vet has seen a horse die from an IM injection of it.

never heard that one.

davistina67
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:55 PM
never heard that one.

Yes, it is very well known. Just search the boards. It is not worth the risk to give it IM.