100DT OMGiH I'm COLD!

[Oakleigh]

Well, we all made it through the first day with all smiles and no tears. This morning was the free jumping. Every stallion did well.

Then a 1pm we had presentation of basic gaits. The regular riders did a lap of the HUGE outdoor arena at a trot, then a canter, then walked across the diagonal and out. Ken Borden Jr gave us a bit of a scare when he parted company with one of his stallions, but after a few minutes he was up and at it again. What a trooper!!!

At 3:15 the guest riders for dressage took over. 8 groups of three were presented. Each guest rider rotated among the stallions in the group. Three different riders, three different styles of riding. It was very interesting to watch them get on the same stallion and ask different questions...and get different answers from the stallions.

Tonite is a reception hosted by Midwest Breeders. But, first, a HOT HOT bath in my deluxe jacuzzi and thaw me out! Between the temperature and the drizzle of rain, I feel like a popcicle.

More later...
Oakleigh

[Oakleigh]

Well, we all made it through the first day with all smiles and no tears. This morning was the free jumping. Every stallion did well.

Then a 1pm we had presentation of basic gaits. The regular riders did a lap of the HUGE outdoor arena at a trot, then a canter, then walked across the diagonal and out. Ken Borden Jr gave us a bit of a scare when he parted company with one of his stallions, but after a few minutes he was up and at it again. What a trooper!!!

At 3:15 the guest riders for dressage took over. 8 groups of three were presented. Each guest rider rotated among the stallions in the group. Three different riders, three different styles of riding. It was very interesting to watch them get on the same stallion and ask different questions...and get different answers from the stallions.

Tonite is a reception hosted by Midwest Breeders. But, first, a HOT HOT bath in my deluxe jacuzzi and thaw me out! Between the temperature and the drizzle of rain, I feel like a popcicle.

More later...
Oakleigh

[hunt_jump]

Thanks for the updatehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have been thinking about y'all and your boys all day. Glad to hear that the boys are doing well so far. Sending my wishes for a drier and safe weekend for all (sorry, but I don't think that hopes for warmer weather will work) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Wow, thanks for keeping us posted. Warm up and enjoy the evening because you all are going to be freezing again tomorrow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Think warm thoughts. Good luck guys!

[Oakleigh]

*** Disclaimer: This is just my personal opinion*** http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There were 2 absolutely WOW stallions in the free jumping. Galeno Tyme by Granulit, owned by Jennifer Mosier and Cathalido by Calido I, owned by Hans de Groot both had the crowd ooohing and ahhhhing. They set the rails at the top of the standards and these two were just barely getting warmed up. You could tell that they really enjoyed freejumping. Rivano, by Riverman, owned by me did very very well in the free jumping also. His rail was set to the top of the standard also on the oxer. He likes jumping and it showed.

There were at least 9 others who also did exceptionally in the free jumping. There were some surprises with a couple of stallions that looked like they would primarily be dressage horses, that were fantastic in the freejump. There were many who were fluid, careful and exact, but without as much WOW factor (for me).

It's great getting to put faces with names. I'm headed over to the Holiday Inn Eastgate for a reception in a few minutes. I am FINALLY warm. I took a HOT HOT HOT bath and turned on the heat lamp and have the room heater turned on HIGH at the hottest setting it goes. Can you say I was chilled to the bone???

I'll check in here later when I get back from the reception...

Later,
Oakleigh

[Cartier]

Thanks for the update… have fun this evening… stay warm tomorrow.

[Laurie@CBF]

Glad to hear all went well today. Good Luck to everyone tomorrow. Please keep us posted!

[Oakleigh]

Goodness!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Midwest Breeders Group sure knows how to host a reception!!! Kudos to them, for sure!

All the stallion owners, the riders, the grooms, the administration and guests were there tonight. What a great group of stallion owners! I met many of them tonite. They are all so supportive of their fellow owners.

Wonderful company, fantastic food and libations! ....and on that note, it's time for sleep. Will fill you in with more news tomorrow.

Niters,
Oakleigh

[WinDayDän]

Awe Pat! Give us a prediction! I am excited about the Calido I son! But of course you know I hold a special place in my heart for your Rivano!

[showjumpers66]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the update!!! I am so anxious to hear how Cathalido does. I think he is really going to be a stallion to watch for the future. His first two foal crops have been fabulous ... I am in awe of my Cathalido colt and can not wait to repeat the breeding.

I am looking forward to seeing and hearing more about Rivano, too. Best of luck to all the boys!

Rebecca, can you give us a teaser clip of Cathalido jumping???

[Oakleigh]

The 100 DT stallions and the 30 DT stallions are in completely separate groups, so a 30 DT stallion cannot "win" the test, although his score could be higher. So, Cathalido and Rivano are not eligible to "win" the stallion test as they are 30 day stallions.

Case in point, Ken Borden Jr's Raymeister in 2002 had 140(approx) points. He clearly had the highest score. But since he was entered in the 30 DT he could not be declared the "winner" of the 100DT. The stallion that was declared the winner actually had the third highest score among ALL the horses. The 100 DT winner received the accolades, the cooler, the photos, the publicity... and Ken, whose horse had a much higher score received a baseball cap and you don't see his name in many locations.

To make this process fair and recognize the financial output, work and dedication of everyone, there should be two awards ceremonies, with coolers, photos and publicity. Actually, there should be three ceremonies! The ponies are also judged separately. The Federation Stallion Testing Service should award 3 coolers, customized appropriately with 100 DT, 30 DT and Pony Stallion Testing.

Just FYI, the 30 day test stallions complete the exact same final test as the 10 DT stallions. The only difference is that they had to do their first 70 days of training and prep at home or a trainer's farm. They are also presented by their trainer at the test. They certainly don't cut the 30 DT stallions ANY slack.

During the free jumping portion, the 30 DT stallions Cathalido and Rivano jumped a higher grid of fences than most of the 100 DT stallions. I notice that all of the 30 DT stallions have been VERY well prepared by Ken Borden Jr and Leanne Szieberth.

What is the point of this information? Currently, only the ISR/ONA, the BWP, and the AHHA recognize the 30 DT. The final test is exactly the same!!! We all need to petition our registries to recognize this 30 DT as a legitimate means of fulfilling performance requirements. Believe me, these 30 DT stallions have been in training for the full 100 days. They only spend the final 30 days at the testing site, however. This is more than an adequate time for the training director to divine character and temperament scores. In fact, currently, the training director DOES evaluate these stallions for temperament, rideability, and willingness, issuing a score on these.

It's my opinion that if the Federation Stallion Testing would educate and inform stallion owners of this opportunity, and if more registries would back this, they would have adequate horses to run a 30 day test EVERY year, and the 100 DT every other year. We just need everyone working together to get registries to understand and support the process.

Case in point, the AHHA stallions. The registry approves young, preliminary stallions every year. If it's during a year that the 30 or 100 DT is not offered, the owners must try to map out a show schedule to fulfill the performance requirements. But, these efforts give us no feedback on temperament, willingness, and rideability. Going the show route costs more than the 30 DT ultimately and gives us (the breeders and the registries) less feedback! If more registries would recognize the 30 DT and if they would mandate it, we would have so much more feedback on our stallions, and they would all meet a minium standard. Stallions affect the future of a registry so much more than any one mare could. It's important to require that the stallions meet or exceed this minimum standard.

OK, getting off my soap-box. Please, no flames. This is my own personal opinion and not that of any registry I might be associated with...

Getting ready to brave the cold again...
Oakleigh

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Well, thank you very much, we now have your rain! But, I have to say, atleast it is not as cold here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Have fun and thank you for the updates. Some of us are living vicariously through you guys. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Keep warm. I will be looking forward to your updates. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Currently, only the ISR/ONA and the AHHA recognize the 30 DT. The final test is exactly the same!!! We all need to petition our registries to recognize this 30 DT as a legitimate means of fulfilling performance requirements. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You make a very good case for your point of view. Well worth considering. Thanks.

[Marieke]

Good luck to all, I wish I was there!!!

[copper bay farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Currently, only the ISR/ONA and the AHHA recognize the 30 DT. The final test is exactly the same!!! We all need to petition our registries to recognize this 30 DT as a legitimate means of fulfilling performance requirements. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You make a very good case for your point of view. Well worth considering. Thanks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The final testing is the same, but the amount of time the head trainer, training leader, etc. spends with the stallions is limited, would this not impact on things like the scores for character, etc? Just a thought. That said though the 30DT and/or 70DT and performance format seems to working in Germany.

Glad to know things are going well at Paxton though, I know Hugh Bellis-Jones and the other organizers have put a tremendous amount of time and effort into the testing!

Good luck to everyone!!

[Cartier]

I think that this testing is an excellent idea.. and I think that being open to re-assessing and refining the protocol as time goes by is also an excellent approach, which will ultimately benefit all American WB breeders (which arguably should be the goal of this testing).

[shoos]

I believe the RPSI is mandating a 30 day test each year for preliminary licenced stallions starting in 2005.

[Home Again Farm]

Thanks for the thorough report, Pat. I can see those boys jumping and feel the icicles on your nose! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I hope the rest of the testing goes well for all and that cross country day is dry and sunny.

I tend to agree with you about the 30 day testing. However, I know that AHS is held to an agreement with the Verband that may prevent such a change. To me taht is a shame, as I would never risk the 100 day test if I ever owned a stallion. Too many possibilities of things going wrong. Those who send their boys for the 100 day are braver than I'll ever be.

Keep us posted! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Castlegate]

May have been asked and answered...BUT..I have a question...if at the 30DT the horses regular trainer is the rider, how does the Federation judge rideability? I guess my thought was that during the 100 DT with guest riders they were un-biased and had some criteria for evaluating rideability...wouldn't rideability mean that as a general rule the horse was easy or difficult to ride? If its being ridden by a non federation rider wouldn't that make rideability difficult to score? Of course maybe what I am thinking IS rideability is not what is actually scored?

[M.K.Smith]

I'm enjoying reading the updates! I'm hoping we'll get to see lots of pics as well. Good luck to everyone & stay warm!

MKB...

[Piaffe~Passage]

I wish all of you good luck, I have been "somewhat" following the 100dt, but can someone please repost the list of the stallions that are in it. I cannot seam to find it on the forum.

[KimPeterson]

Pat, Hope everything is going well today at the testing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Cold and Rain here in NJ and i am guessing damp in Ohio too?? I am going down to do some work at our "new" farm in FL sometime in Dec if I can get friends to stay at our place up here. I know I WON"T want to come back to NJ after the FL weather....

Sending good vibes your way! ((little cheer)) GO GO RIvano ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Kim

[Edgar]

Yes, it is fun hearing little updates, Good luck ! to all.
You can find the list of participating stallions at www.hanoverian.org (http://www.hanoverian.org)

[inca]

Castlegate - the 30 day test stallions are all ridden by the training director and he scores their ridability. (He just rides them once or twice to do that.) They are also ridden by all the guest riders and get scores from them during these final 3 days.

It is COLD up here and the days have been a little long. Think all the horses were tired by the end of the day yesterday! Seems like all the excitement was yesterday and today was pretty routine with dressage and stadium jumping.

[octoberhill]

The rain ended last night but it is still REALLY cold here. Watched the dressage tests with training riders and also the jumping under saddle with guest riders, one of whom was old friend Michael Dennehey. I've never been to Paxton Farms before...what a spectacular facility. Lucky stallion owners to have such a place for their horses. The jumping today was good, with Cathalido standing out from the rest of the crowd. Other horses to watch there were Rubicon and Galeno Tyme. Also Addison was interesting, and Iconicus (sp?) Having fun even if I can't feel my toes. Time for, as Oakleigh says, a thaw in the tub, then on to the party at a local restaurant. Tomorrow the cross country starts at eleven.....hope the wind is NOT blowing!

[Oakleigh]

I have to agree with Octhill on a couple of things. First, I can't remember the last time I was this cold! Secondly, the facilities are purely the BEST, second to NONE. Third, Cathalido was a standout. Too bad that he is a 30 day test horse and won't get the recognition that the 100 DT horses will get. He deserves the recognition. Cathalido was outstanding.

Galeno Tyme still stands out above the others, in the 100 DT group. Now, this is JUST my opinion, so no fussing at me...please.

The guest jumper riders were very interesting to watch. Two completely different riding styles. One more "huntery", supportive and soft. The other more "jumpery" ,but allowing the horse to get very deep into the base of the jump. Both asked completely different questions of the horse. It was interesting to see how the horses accomodated the differing styles and level of assistance. I really enjoyed watching all the horses go. First, they were warmed up by their regular rider, so you got to see what style the horses were comfortable with, and how they jumped with the rider they were accustomed to.

Needless to say, after doing the dressage test this morning, then three jumping rounds this afternoon, every single horse looked tired. Hopefully they will get a good night's sleep because tomorrow is cross country!

Rivano is so accomodating that he did well with both riders styles over fences. He jumped very well. He likes uncomplicated rides and will make it happen that way. He is so easy to work with. I'm proud of my boy. So far, I think he is doing well. He definitely likes the jumping part.

OK, I am headed out the door to the dinner tonite for the stallion owners and guests.

More later...
Oakleigh

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Enjoy your dinner, and once again, thanks for the update. I have my fingers crossed for your Rivano. You really scared me a several months ago (you know what I mean. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and I am glad that he is there. He sounds like a wonderful boy and you have EVERY right to be VERY proud of him. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[onetempies]

Well, it shouldn't be too windy there today. Sun is actually out here in Michigan but temps are still not quite 45. Of course... I was out riding Sass at 9am this morning. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I am STILL frozen!

Can't wait to hear today's update! Off to go clean stalls now...

[Oakleigh]

Today was a tad chilly in the wind, but otherwise a gorgeous day. All the staff and stallion owners could finally see the light at the end of the tunnel...and it isn't a freight train! We have all dedicated a large chunk of $$, effort and time into this test. The staff did a fantastic job and the whole test worked very well. TEAM effort!!! Yea TEAM!

The cross country and gallop went beautifully for all! Although the stallions are all tired, they rallied and looked like they were enjoying the big gallop and cross country fences. The footing was still quite wet with standing water, but except for a little bit of slipping, all went VERY well!

The dinner last night at Michael G's was very nice. Speeches thanking those who worked so hard to make this event happen abounded. Bottles of wine were gifted and the German riders were given a basket of goodies from the stallion owners, with the 30 day test and 100 day test stallion owners contributing to the gifts.

There was a beautiful wine and cheese reception hosted by Mrs. Paxton, in the indoor arena at the close of the day. Entertainment by a very talented local vaulting team, two individual dressage exhibitions, a pony club quadrille, and a miniature horse driving quadrille kept the crowd of stallion owners lively; clapping, hooting and whistling.

Now, the only event left is the announcement of the scores tomorrow at 10am. I'm hoping that the stallion testing personnel will recognize the short test participants in a manner more fitting with the effort and investment than they have in years past. We'll see tomorrow...

On a personal note... Rivano was very solid today. He galloped well and jumped well. The vet commented positively on the horses that Leanne trained. Their heart rates were taken before the XC course, right after a 1000 m gallop and again after walking a bit. Both Rivano and Cathalido rebounded very quickly. The vet said they were very fit and he was very impressed with how quickly they recovered. Within just a couple minutes they went from 170 bpm to 50 bpm!

Off to a dinner with some stallion owners and my short test rider/trainer Leanne Szieberth. She did a FABULOUS job!!!

Oakleigh

[serenityfarm]

Will someone be posting the scores tomorrow after they are announced on this thread. I can not wait to know how it went and could not go down there myself. I am excited to hear and please post the final scores!

[hunt_jump]

Thanks for the updateshttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I am so nervous for all of the stallion owners. I am glad to hear that the boys all made it through the test well. Sonesta, when you get back to TX we definitely need some more wonderful video clips http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good luck to all of the stallion owners tomorrowhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

It is so nice of you to keep us up to date on this. I wish I could be there to see it. I can't wait to hear the results!

[showjumpers66]

Thanks for the updates! Any guess on who champion and reserve champion will be?

[WinDayDän]

Hmm, I am going to have to get Andras' opinion when you three get back next week! Counting the hours until ten in the morning tomorrow!

[pintofoal]

Wishing all the stallions and their owners success! You all are in the forefront of breeding for being brave enough to prove your boys! Again good luck and best wishes to you all.

PS--They usually call the stallions scores in alphabetical order, if you are hanging out with a stallion owner who's boy is in the first few letters of the alphabet and yours is twords the end, ask to see their sheet as soon as they are done with it, then you can know your boys score as well, they are all listed. I waited and waited for Spectrums scores and almost had a nervous break down, mean while Carol Lawrence (none of us realize that all the scores where there) was sitting right next to me with Caruso's sheet and we all could have know much sooner http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Good luck and thanks for the updates!

[onetempies]

Yes! Please please PLEASE post the final update with scores, etc!

Best of luck to all! Sounds like the boys were STARS! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[WinDayDän]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif two more hours before results are anounced.

[Iluvgoldies]

Results ?? Please!!

[Rainbow Farm Unltd.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Castlegate:
May have been asked and answered...BUT..I have a question...if at the 30DT the horses regular trainer is the rider, how does the Federation judge rideability? QUOTE]

Guest riders are part of the final testing, which is the same for both groups. Read above.

[shoos]

Wow what a cold weekend, I am so curious the results. I heard the weather announce OH in the mid 20's this morning.
Brrr.
The last weekend of the 100DT were of strong constitution.
Great reports/updates!

[Marieke]

(drum roll)



.....still waiting..... anxiously.....

[LW]

come on!! we are all dying to know!!

Linda
www.walnut-farm.com (http://www.walnut-farm.com)

[talloaks]

We want to know the winners NOW!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[LW]

Hannoverians finished about in the middel.

The Galaya Thymes (spelling?) won the testing with a superior 155.87 congrats!!

Where is Waldo was 128 dressage.
Warcloud 90. something.

Several low scores, but that was to be expected looking at them preform. As a mare owner, you want something to IMPROVE on your mare.

Will stop now, as I only got scores over the phone and can not wouch for accuracy.

Linda
www.walnut-farm.com (http://www.walnut-farm.com)

[alexandra]

Ha found the results posted online....by "BZAUGIS"

Stallion Licensing...! So Results are in! Posted by bdzaugis 13:20:31 11/14/2004
Just received a call from the 100 test Stallion licensing.

Winner drum rolll.....

GALENO TYME
Oldenburg stallion, 1999
Granulit/Barsoi xx
Jennifer Mosier
Abilene, KS

Scoring 152.19 jumping, 144.54 dressage and was the highest scored earned ever at teh 100 day testing.Congrats to Jennifer Mosier!!

2nd was Caleb
CALEB
Oldenburg stallion, 1998
Florian*-Glorieta/Columbus
Ellen White
Waco, TX
Jumping 128.67, Dressage 129.33

3rd Drachenherz
DRACHEN HERZ
Hanoverian stallion, 1999
Donavan-Kay's First/First Albert
Margaret Goodell
Sullivan, WI
Jumping 120.20, dressage 106.68


On the 30 day tieting winner was Ubliee
UBILEE
Dutch stallion, 2001
Opus-Dionysus/Orpheus
Ken Borden, Jr.
Wilmington, IL
total scor 130.53 dressage 135.67, Jumping 117.25

2nd was MasterPiece
MASTERPIECE
Swedish Warmblood stallion, 2000
Master-Miss Nickel Annie/Call Me Penny
Ken Borden Jr.,
Wilmington, IL
96.74, Dressage 104.01 jumping 98.47

Winner of the Pony Division
FS DAILY HERO
Rheinland stallion, 1999
FS Don't Worry-FS Pascalina*/FS Pavarotti*
Nancy Ferebee
Alpharetta, GA with a 76.25%

[Lord Helpus]

Boy, that Galeno Tyme must be quite a horse! I remember Drachen Herz was one of my faves from the video clips, so I do have some taste. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Can someone post the link to the video clips again so we can go back and look at the horses?

[Kyzteke]

I remember seeing Granulit go through his Oldenburg licensing (via tape) and LOVING him. Was actually going to breed to him via frozen from Judy Yancy.

Then I prevaricated, 'cause he didn't seem to be producing consistantly...one thing led to another and I kind of lost touch with his "career."

Should have followed my first instincts -- but then, I guess the TB mare was probably pretty nice as well!

Where are the rest of the scores?

[Tiki]

So Pat, how did Rivano do?

[arnika]

The full results are always posted on www.sporthorsefederation.org (http://www.sporthorsefederation.org) but they are not up yet.

Keeping my fingers crossed for Pat and Rivano!

[serenityfarm]

Does anyone know the rest of the scores? Atleast the list of all the stallions and their overall score. Who were the low scoring stallions?

[KimPeterson]

Can't wait to see the scores, a score of 80 overall is needed for Oldenburg/ISR approval right??? I always wonder if the younger stallions aren't at a slight disadvantage - I didn't take Uni through any inspections this year as I didn't want to send him to the testing at 3yrs he is still growing and it is very apparent right now..esp when compare to stallions two or three years older -- I am going to wait until he is more mature. I think it makes a bit of a difference even if only by 1 or 2 years.

[Halfhalting]

Can Sonesta repost the link to all of her video clips at her 50 day trip? I think it would be really interesting to go back and look at them now that we know the final scores!!

Please! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[talloaks]

Congratulations to Ellen White on CALEB being the second placed stallion. CALEB is a son of Ellen's stallion FLORIAN!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I'm excited also since my FLORIAN daughter HANA FLORIA is in foal to SANDRO HIT for 2005!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Portia]

Yes, how nice for Ellen White and Florian, and his son Caleb. Another Texas team made good. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Iluvgoldies]

I did a search and found the original thread where Sonesta posted the video clips - but the link to her website doesn't work.

I'm still waiting to see how the rest of the stallions did - especially Palladio, my filly's sire!

[ise@ssl]

I was there for the testing but had to leave late last night - the Galeno Tyme was no surprise - really folks!!! His boy's hang time over a huge oxer is something to behold. Also the rideability on the flat, over fences and cross country was the best.

No surprise (IMHO) on Caleb, Where's Waldo or Drachen Herz!! And certainly no surprise on the pony Hero!! I would have squeezed him in my suitcase in a heartbeat if I could.

[Equine Reproduction]

Well, somebody has to post it, so it may as well be me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'll go ahead and post the numbers, but they're not in order. For the record, Waterford was at the bottom of the heap &lt;sigh&gt;...someone had to be there!

Addison
Dressage: 82.11
Jumping: 98.40
Total: 89.98

Arts Aero
Dressage: 58.15
Jumping: 81.39
Total: 66.00

Caleb
Dressage: 129.33
Jumping: 128.67
Total: 132.28

Conrad I
Dressage: 104.44
Jumping: 122.2
Total: 113.29

Devon Heir
Dressage: 105
Jumping: 102
Total: 103

Donnerkoenig
Dressage: 82.41
Jumping: 82.72
Total: 76.40

Donnersohn
Dressage: 97.71
Jumping: 91.38
Total: 94.30

Donnerstein
Dressage: 90.03
Jumping: 106.79
Total: 102.32

Drachen Herz
Dressage: 106.68
Jumping: 120.34
Total: 114.33

Galeno Tyme
Dressage: 144.54
Jumping: 152.19
Total: 155.87

Iconicus
Dressage: 85.5
Jumping: 122.63
Total: 98.86

Isaiah
Dressage: 85.61
Jumping: 100.58
Total: 91.29

Landchampion
Dressage: 100.01
Jumping: 106.9
Total: 104.33

Palladio
Dressage: 108/10
Jumping: 116.26
Total: 111.97

Sea Accounts
Dressage: 85.22
Jumping: 97.84
Total: 90.19

Warcloud
Dressage: 95.39
Jumping: 92.90
Total: 90.80

Waterford
Dressage: 57.45
Jumping: 76.44
Total: 61.76

Weltanzer
Dressage: 121.63
Jumping: 98.24
Total: 113.12

Where's Waldo - RH
Dressage: 128.43
Jumping: 86.43
Total: 111.13

Short Test

Cathalido
Dressage: 81.75
Jumping: 114.10
Total: 95.22

Fal Turro
Dressage: 98.00
Jumping: 78
Total: 88.64

Masterpiece
Dressage: 104.71
Jumping: 98.47
Total: 99.74

Rivano
Dressage: ??
Jumping: 85.50
Total: 78.10

Rubicon Z
Dressage: 87.68
Jumping: 103.31
Total: 89.16

Ubilee
Dressage: 138.97
Jumping: 117.25
Total: 130.53

Ponies

Art I Decked Out
66.33%

FS Daily Hero
76.25%

Please be kind in your comments here. Some of the stallion owners are devestated http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

It truly was a phenomenal group of stallions and stallion owners and kudos should go out to all of them. As you can see by the scores above, several of them did not receive sufficient scores to pass their breed approvals. Galeno Tymes is a lovely stallion and congratulations to his owner(s).

I'm posting the scores as written from someone else's program, so if I made any errors in the final scores, I apologize.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Portia]

Thanks, Kathy.

Forgive my ingorance, but what scores were required by each registry for approval?

Is the minimum score for approval for the 30DT different from the minimum score for the 100DT?

Is the minimum score for the pony stallion testing different from the required minimums for the others?

[Galileo1998]

Sorry for asking but what is the score required to pass?

[Equine Reproduction]

The minimum score will vary from registry to registry. ISR/Oldenburg NA is 80, Hanoverian is 90, Holsteiner, I believe is 100 points. So, while some of these stallions will have other options, not all of them do. Remember though, that some very, VERY influential stallions have barely passed their 100 DT...Grannus, I believe was one that just eeked by...could be wrong on that, but I think he received just the required score. The ponies are scored on a percentage and most registries require at least 60%, I believe.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Laurie@CBF]

Kathy - thank you for posting this.

This is what is so tough about being scored on a bell curve - some must fail. The horses are graded against each other - not a set "number". I often wonder if in Germany a farm will send a good stallion along with an average one - just to improve the good ones chances of doing well. They tell me not - but one has to wonder.

I am sure it has been an emotional rollercoaster for every SO involved. Congrats to all for having the courage to go through this process.

Edited to add - I just checked the ages of the top three fininshers in this 100dt - GT is five, Caleb is six, and DH is five. I know that there is a five point penalty for being over four years - but this still does not sound like a level playing field for the younger horses. If my memory serves well - it is often an older horse that will win the 100dt in the US (Contigo M, Puerto D'azur, Di'vinci (sp?)). I don't think this is seen very often in Europe - isn't it mostly three year olds with a few four year olds? Sounds like it is very advantageous to wait and take the penalty.

Ken Bordens horse in the 30 day was probably the top 3yr old - Congrats.

[Tiki]

Congratulations to the ones who passed, and my heartfelt condolences to those who didn't. It's a looooong, hard, emotional and expensive route to stallion approval, no matter what the method.

[Fairview Horse Center]

so correct me if I am wrong, but if Galeno Tyme had not been entered in this testing, several of the lower scoring stallions may have passed and received their lifetime breeding license?

[Marieke]

These scores are very far apart. Very far. How can that be?

Congratulations to those who have passed, I'm terrible sorry to those who haven't.

[ise@ssl]

Just a correction - the final scores are NOT A BELL CURVE. The scoring system is a very complicated weighted averaging that also includes the results of the prior test.

Regarding how the scores could be so far apart - well they aren't scored relative to each other. They are all scored during the 100 days and final testing on a 1-10 scoring system for many categories.

[Laurie@CBF]

Ilona,

it appears that the older horses consistently do better at this test - even with the five point penalty. I don't think you see these older horses in European testings. One has to wonder how fair it is to put the three and four year olds up against the older horses.

[Equine Reproduction]

Well, the advantage of the bell curve is tht it will continually move breeding forward...especially if the winning stallion is exceptional. But, it is structured such that some stallions "will" fail. It's just the way it goes. I believe in the system and would send another stallion through.

I wouldn't mind having any of the stallions that were at the testing in my barn. They ALL were exceptional.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Portia]

A few more questions to please be answered by those of you who know these things. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How can a stallion's overall score be lower than either its dressage or jumping scores? Is that because of other more detailed scores that aren't reported separately (such as, for example only, rideability or willingness)?

Also, can a stallion take the test again if its score was not sufficient? Or can it try to get licensed through performance testing if it did not qualify in the test?

Congratulations to all those who passed. While we can all understand the deep disappointment of those whose stallions did not pass, we can all be sure that they are still lovely horses and the owners are and will continue to be rightfully proud to have them.

[Home Again Farm]

I can't add much to what Tiki wrote. Congrats to those whose boys passed and my sincerest condolences to those whose did not. This testing is not something that I would ever even think of attempting with one of my horses. All of you are much braver than I will ever be.

Sigh.......

And for whoever asked, I do believe that for whatever reason, the testings in this country do seem to favor the more seasoned and steady horses who have already been there and done that and may be very accustomed to different riding styles. JMHO

[ise@ssl]

Some of the individual scores go into the Dressage Index & Jumping Index. Some scores are NOT included in these Indexes. Hope that explains the difference Portia.

There certainly is not reason why a stallion could not go on and complete the performance requirements and apply for approval from any of the registries they were approved by. There were several stallions in the testing who went through the testing without having prior approval from any registry. Quite a few were presented to the ISR/OLDNA and I believe the the AHS at the final testing.

My program is in the house and I'm in the office but there were older stallions that did well and some that didn't and vice/versa.

I'm sure EVERYONE will agree that every single horse and pony looked SUPER. Their weight, condition, turn-out and riding by their team riders was superb. The guest riders were IMHO a super mix - different styles which really helped us to see how the stallions went with a change of riding style.

I tip my hat to the stallion owners - it's a rough road to travel.

[KimPeterson]

I could but wrong!!
but believe that in general the reason older horses are allowed in our testings is that we can only have a testing once every two years (in Germany it is every year) - so you can either send your 3yr this year or wait and send him as a 5yr ect..

Depending on the year your stallion is presented to his registry he might have to wait another year to be tested. Of course an older stallion with more muscle and riding experience/strength has an advantage - I would rather take the 5 -point deduction and have my horse jump 3'6 -3'8 courses as a 5yr than a 3yr ... esp when some of them are still growing and butt high at 3yr.

(((I always thought the quality/training of the other horses in the testing in total - has an effect on the end scores - is the correct? Is it a bell curve?? )))

[Oakleigh]

Hi all,

Sorry I couldn't post earlier. the WiFi wasn't working in the hotel. It goes in and out... Needless to say, I'm bummed out that Rivano didn't get enough points for his lifetime license.
Ah well... sometimes life doesn't quite go like you would wish. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Galeno Tyme was absolutely fantastic. There were some really outstanding stallions at the test. It was a pleasure to watch them! Congrats to the owners!!!

Oakleigh

[Lord Helpus]

At what point in the testing is each horse formally judged on conformation? And is each horse judged against the standard for his breed or as a horse who is expected to produce a standardized looking modern WB sporthorse?

In other words: Is Sea Account, who is a TB, judged by the same standard as a Holsteiner?

This would not bother me except that the test is judged on a bell curve -- so it seems unfair to hold all the horses to one standard if they are not of the same breed. Someone posted above that some of the stallions are not presented for breed approval until after the test. So the judges cannot say "This horse is being presented for approval as an Oldenburg, so we will judge it agaisnt the standard of a perfect Oldenburg."

And where is the horse's conformation (or his physical type and quality) reflected in a numerical score?

[ahf]

This is for equine-reproduction -

Kathy, over the years (in many situations - both publicly and privately) I have continually been impressed by your balance, professionalism and aplomb. You have truly been the voice of reason in so many instances.

However, today you have given a lesson to every reader of this thread in grace and good-nature. I can't help but imagine what the horse world would be like if everyone took a page from your book.

You are, as my grandmother would say, an old soul. I am awed.

Kate

[pintofoal]

Congrats to all the stallion owners, even if your boys didn't "pass" they and you went did and made it through! Cudos to the top placing ones--well done!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>At what point in the testing is each horse formally judged on conformation? And is each horse judged against the standard for his breed or as a horse who is expected to produce a standardized looking modern WB sporthorse?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> NEVER they are never judged at the 100 day testing for that, that is the job of the breed registries approving them. They are strictly judged at the hundred day testing on their performance. So it shouldn't matter if your horse is a Morgan, TB, Arab, Warmblood or looks like a yak and is butt ugly, as long as he can perform well through out the testing.

[talloaks]

Lord Helpus posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And where is the horse's conformation (or his physical type and quality) reflected in a numerical score?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 100 Day Stallion Testing is for PERFORMANCE. The stallion's conformation score was given when he was first presented to a registry for approval as a breeding stallion. If his score was high enough he was permitted to go for the PERFORMANCE TESTING. Therefore it is my understanding that no scores are given for conformation at the 100 Day Test. (from conversation I had with Dr. Karsten Kuehl at the testing in 2002)

[copper bay farm]

Results are now posted on the AHS site at 2004 100-Day Testing Reults (http://www.hanoverian.org/Stallions/2004TestResults.html)

Congratulations to all the owners and especially to the four AHS provisionally licensed stallions who all met the required score of 90 to become fully approved and licensed. You are brave souls!

DEVON HEIR
(De Niro-Ribana/Rubinstein I (Westf.))
Foaled 2001 in Germany
Owner: Terri Mason-Esteban

DONNERSOHN
(Donnerhall (Old.)-SPS Angelina/Archipel)
Foaled 2000 in Germany
Owner: Leslie Peik and Saxony Farm

DONNERSTEIN
(Donnerhall (Old.)-SPS Wakajama/Weltbuerger)
Foaled 2000 in Alabama
Owner: Deborah Stone

WARCLOUD
(Wolkentanz-EM Ballone/Bolero)
Foaled 2000 in California
Owner: Marsha Anderson

[talloaks]

OOPs Liz, sorry I posted at the same time!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Tiki]

As noted, stallions are presented to their respective registries prior to the test. Depending on the registry, they are scored on conformation, walk in hand, trot in hand, free jumping, some are shown under saddle - depending on age and registry, and free gaits - depending on registry. I'm not sure if anyone jumps them under saddle. They have to achieve a sufficient score in order to be invited to the performance test.

The stallions who were not provisionally approved, or licensed, prior to the 100 Day PERFORMANCE TEST, were allowed to attend - IF there were enough spaces. If they passed the performance test, they will be presented (often at the 100 Day Test, but NOT part of the 100 Day Test) for their final approval. Kind of like doing it backwards.

[showjumpers66]

I am so sorry for those whose stallions did not pass ... I can not even begin to imagine the magnitude of your disappointment! Congrats to those who passed!!!

OctoberHill and Oakleigh, what is the minimum score for AHHA? Is it 100? Even though Rivano did not get the 80 points required for ISR, can he still meet the performance requirements?

Can anyone give some insight as to the short test scores? Since Cathalido was the standout jumper, why was his jumping score lower than Ubilee and so much lower than many of the 100 day test stallions? The short test stallions appear to have scored much lower than the 100 day test stallions in dressage. Was this a preparation issue? Were the short test stallions penalized on their scores or did they not test as well? Did they not do as well under the guest riders?

[WinDayDän]

Galeno Tyme's score bested my beloved Contigo's. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif I only hope he rises to the expectation as Contigo, in my opinion, is quite the horse let alone a stallion. He can do no wrong in my eyes.

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showjumpers66:
OctoberHill and Oakleigh, what is the minimum score for AHHA? Is it 100? Even though Rivano did not get the 80 points required for ISR, can he still meet the performance requirements?

Can anyone give some insight as to the short test scores? Since Cathalido was the standout jumper, why was his jumping score lower than Ubilee and so much lower than many of the 100 day test stallions? The short test stallions appear to have scored much lower than the 100 day test stallions in dressage. Was this a preparation issue? Were the short test stallions penalized on their scores or did they not test as well? Did they not do as well under the guest riders? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SJ66, the AHHA requires 100. As to Rivano, I don't know the answer. According to EB, he loses his license. This I find ironic. Rivano produced a premium filly this year. In fact, she was the site champion filly! I didn't ask anymore questions after that, since I was stunned and my mind went blank... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Personally, I thought the 30 day stallions were prepared well. EB said he thought they weren't as well prepared as the 100 DT stallions. I'm afraid I just don't know the answers....sorry!

Would I do this again? no. Would I recommend this to anyone? no. I originally thought this was a good method of completing the requirements, as opposed to doing it by sport. Now, I'm not so sure. As someone above mentioned, the older stallions with more experience score much higher, but are only penalized 5 points. I think 5 points per year would be more equitable. Obviously, there is an advantage to taking a 7 year old who already has had the training and vast show experience.

Overall, the test is a good idea. There are some things that could definitely be improved. I'll be writing a report for my registry on the experiences of Cathalido's owner and myself. I'm sure it will create lengthy discussion in the registry at the annual meeting.

Oakleigh

[Lord Helpus]

Oakleigh,

I went to your site and saw the picture of your boy. He is stunning. I hope you pursue the performance option and get him licensed that way. He certainly looks like the real deal and deserves the chance to prove it.

I am sure you are still in a fog from the results. Other than the scores, are the stallion owners provided with any feedback? Are there written remarks by the riders or judges or the director of the test? Or are you left guessing how the scores were arrived at?

[ise@ssl]

to showjumpers 66 - all we have at this point are the Dressage and Jumping Indexes and the Overall Score - you want answers that will come from the detailed scoring which at this time are not available on all the horses. And on some it might not be available. The ISR/OLDNA does publish the details on all approved stallions in the annual breeders guide but I'm not sure if the other registries make this information available.

Perhaps I'm wrong Pat but I understood if a stallion did go on to complete the performance requirements they could re-apply to have their license activated.

As far as the short test stallions their riding during the 30 days was not by the Team Riders but by a rider provided by the owners. So their training program prior to arriving probably varied, but at the testing was similar with respect to what done with the other stallions each day and they were being trained in the same facility. For the basic gaits and warm-ups the 100 day stallions/ponies were ridden by the team riders and the 30 day stallions by their own riders. The guest riders in both dressage and jumping have no idea which is which - they just arrive and ride and score on rideability only.

[showjumpers66]

I would think that this information would be a huge benefit to stallion owners who plan to do the short test in the future. If there are areas of preparation that needed more focus, then other stallion owners could learn from this information. There seems to be a very large difference in the 100 day test scores and the short test scores.

[showjumpers66]

Oakleigh,

I think your boy is very nice and you should go for the performance requirements!

[Oakleigh]

Thanks LH and SJ66,

You're right. I am in a fog...

All I got were the scores. No comments or explanations. Not very helpful... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes, SJ66, there was a HUGE difference between the 100 DT scores and the 30 DT scores. EB gave a talk before the 30 DT stallions were presented. His basic message was that he didn't recommend the 30 DT. Although, I was between a rock and a hard place. Rivano was approved at the end of July. The 100 DT was already filled with 20 stallions and they won't take more than that. My only option was the 30DT. Usually, stallions have 2-3 years to complete the performance, but on the bottom of the page on my approval sheet there was a note saying that all ISR/ONA stallions approved in 2004 had to complete all their performance requirements THIS YEAR. So, I had to send him to the 30 DT. I thought that was rather odd at the time... Of course hind-sight is 20/20. I should have waited til next year to present him so he would have had the full time to complete his requirements...

Still stunned.
Oakleigh

[Laurie@CBF]

It is my understanding that there were a number of stallions in the 100dt that were not licensed by any WB registry.

I do not understand how these stallions got a spot on the 100dt roster over a licensed stallion. It would only make sense that licensed stallions (from one of the NAFSHB registries) should get priority. If the registries are going to make the requirement of completing performance within a year - they owe you a spot - IMO. Stallions who have not been licensed should be put on a waiting list - and allowed to go only if there is room. I am sure that it may make things difficult for those that travel far - but the registry should not create a catch 22 situation for the stallions that have met the criteria for licensure (and paid their licensing fees).

[Ashemont]

I believe it is common knowledge that I'm no fan of the 100 Day Test (tongue in cheek) but I do sincerely feel for every one of the stallion owners who participated in this testing. However if the purpose of the test is to identify those stallions who SHOULD be licensed and bred then did this test not do that? Otherwise what is it's purpose and why do it?

I would also appreciate it if someone from AHS could explain why higher-scoring Hanoverian stallions were not approved while lower-scoring ones were? Again, why have the test if the registries are not going to accept the results? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

As far as I know ANY stallion can go the performance route - even after having an insufficient score at the 100 DT. BUT doing so does NOT obligate a registry to approve the stallion.

So stallion owners really appear to be at the mercy of the associations and thus politics. I truly wish there was a more objective way for approvals. A pass/fail test (30 day variety); a required minimum performance component; and quality of get... and when all requirements were met have licensing automatic. Now that is something I could support.

I also sometimes think that perhaps the registries need to be far more selective initially. But then I realize that all horses can have a bad day so perhaps there should be a more in-depth weeding-out process in the beginning. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I'm just really glad that all the boys made it through the testing with none of the major mishaps that we've seen with other testings. And I hope all of the owners fared as well with fingernails and stomachs intact.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[CenterlineFarm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is my understanding that there were a number of stallions in the 100dt that were not licensed by any WB registry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I understand, ANY stallion of any breed can go into the 100 day test. Can't they? Wasn't there a Morgan stallion that went through a number of years ago? Didn't do too badly, I think. But I can't remember.

Perhaps they admit horses by a first come first served basis?

I do not know anything at all about the inner workings of the test, but I have to say I am glad that some fail (as harsh as that may sound). I am certain ALL the stallions in there are exceptional horses, certainly horses anyone would be proud to own. But if they ALL pass, then what is the point? It SHOULD be tough to make it at all creditable - otherwise we will be just like our school-system, too busy making everyone feel better about themselves to really make helpful assessments.

Look at the European tests, for goodness sake!! They go through hundreds of horses before they even select the ones for the final testing.

As for Rivano - he is a stunning horse. I am certain if he was out there competing, people would look twice at him to breed to.

And Kathy - you have a wonderful attitude...I am most impressed.

I think the test is just a tool. Just because a horse performs it well, does NOT necessarily mean he will produce it in his offspring.

edited to say..... My hats off to all stallion owners. You all did well to even get this far. And I feel very badly for those who's stallions did not pass. We have all been there in one form or another throughout our lives...

[showjumpers66]

I agree that the test is a tool and that not all stallions should pass, but I was suprised by a couple of things ...

1) People spoke very highly of Cathalido's jumping ability both free and under saddle and yet he did not have top scores for it.

2) There was a very large difference in the 100 day test scores versus the 30 day test scores.

It would be very educational to know the hows and whys, so that when I bring a young stallion I am totally prepared for the process.

Typically, of the stallions who failed to meet the minimal requirements, were they failed on lack of ability, trainability, rideability, or a combination?

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
... The guest riders in both dressage and jumping have no idea which is which - they just arrive and ride and score on rideability only. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ilona, are you back home already???

Yes, the guest riders DID know which horses were 100 DT and which were 30 DT, since their riders brought them in and warmed them up first. Leanne and Ken were the only two non-
German riders, hence were not 100 DT riders. They did get to speak while mounting and dismounting.

Oakleigh

[Sporthorse South]

I agree with Laurie - I find it puzzling that licensed stallions were told there wasn't room for them in the 100 DT, but several stallions that are not licensed by any registry were given slots. It also doesn't make sense to require a stallion licensed in July to have to take the test THAT year - how does one prepare a young stallion for a 100 DT with only one or two month's warning? Pat, I am so sorry you were caught up in this! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I am also sorry for ALL those owners whose stallions didn't fare well at Paxton - I am sure they feel as though they have been kicked in the teeth. It must be especially disheartening to those who did the full 100 days - what an expensive pill to swallow! And, while I know that it seems harsh to have a system that is designed to fail some horses, I'm not sure the test would be as "meaningful" if it didn't work that way.

To Ashemont - regarding why some higher-scoring Hanoverian stallions were not approved while lower-scoring ones were. I am certainly not trying to speak for AHS here, but I think the philosophy with any registry is that there are some stallions that they just don't feel they need in their registry. This comment is not directed at any one horse in particular, but sometimes the horse in question may have conformation issues the registry can't live with, or he may not be the "type" they are trying to promote, or he may not have a strong enough pedigree for the registry. The horse may be a wonderful performer, and may finish the SPT with high scores, but that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't meet the registry's criteria in other areas. He could be perfectly acceptable to another registry, though.

Also, regarding an earlier comment about older stallions at the German SPTs. Some of those tests very frequently have 4, 5, and even 6 y/o's at them. At one such site last year, the winner was a 4 y/o, the 2nd place horse was a 5 y/o, and the 3rd place horse was a 6 y/o - in fact, SEVEN of the top 10 finishers were at least 4 years old. It is also my understanding that this is becoming more and more common. From what I have been told, they used to not see so many older stallions at the German tests, but the tests have become more and more competitive over the past 10 years or so as the overall quality of the young stallions has gone up. That makes it harder for "lesser-quality" or slow-maturing horses to do well, so it is becoming more common for S/Os to hold their boys back a year or two, so they can grow-up a bit and become more solid under saddle. There are also S/Os there who don't like the SPT process at all, and try to qualify their stallions for the Bundeschampionat so they don't have to send them to the 70 DT. So even in Germany, there are some "issues" with the SPTs.

So - congrats to all who "passed" their registry requirements, my condolences to those who didn't, and kudos to ALL the stallion owners for at least making the effort.

[talloaks]

Does anyone have any photos of the stallions they could post??? Some of us have never seen any of these stallions and would love to!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ise@ssl]

Yes Oakleigh - I left late Saturday night and because of plane mechanical problems http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif didn't get home until 3 AM yesterday.

While I'm sure the guest riders can tell the difference between people with and without a German accent - I'm not sure they consciously noted that when they mounted the horses and do not personally believe that would affect their scoring. For those who have been at the tests, time is tight and most of the time they have to adjust the stirrups, mount and get going and are more focused on getting as much riding in and then switching horses expeditiously.

Also, there's always alot of angst and criticism when the test ends. I was there and just like others I didn't agree with some scores BUT -----BIG BUT - I didn't ride those horses (the 100 day) horses during the testing - what we saw was what we SAW.

FINALLY, venting on the BB's is o.k. but most of you posting here are breeders who belong to one or more registries - if you really feel strongly about certain rules for the testing - write to the registries you belong to and copy the Federation. It goes without saying - you can't make all the people happy all the time but your comments on this BB will only be read by those who subscribe to this BB.

And Pat - I have to take exception to your comment that we need a more "objective" method of approval. Stallion owners have the choice to take their stallions to whatever registry THEY SO CHOOSE OR NOT. Those stallions are presented in PUBLIC. The scores at the ISR/OLDNA inspections (can't speak for the others) are READ OUT LOUD. What the judges see that day is what a judge would see at a Sporhorse Breed Show PLUS the horse at liberty, in the jumping chute and in the case of ISR/OLDNA - basic gaits under saddle. What they judge is what's in front of them THAT DAY. We've all been to these inspections and have seen horses that are are or are not impressive on Inspection day and then go on to match or not match that performance at the testing. We've also seen many stallions that are in the middle or close to bottom of the pack at the 100 Day Tests that go on to be top performers and/or PRODUCERS. And we all know some of the top horses at the 100 Day tests have gone off the radar screen or not been top producers. If the "Objectivity" observation was inferring the inspecting judges have individual preference or prejudice - well to be quite honet - THAT'S LIFE. But if you look at the stallion books for most registries - there is quite a bit of variety - and Thank God for that - our mares are not clones of each other either. Will some stallions that scored at the top get a "sales surge" of breedings from the testing - I really don't know that anyone has ever analysed that. What I always look for in the foal results for the ISR/OLDNA registry are the scores for these newly approved stallions over the first few years following the testing.

THIS IS ONE PIECE of information mare owners have to consider - and IMHO should not be the pass/fail for decision making. In fact, I personally, zero in on certain scores within the total score and some don't matter to me at all. It's an individual analysis the mare owners need to go through to meet their breeding program objectives. I can't be the only mare owner who watched and thought - do any of these stallions work for MY MARES. Some did ...some didn't. "Type" is a major characteristic that doesn't show up in the scoring. That analysis has to come from seeing the stallion or videos of the stallion.

Regarding Cathalido - I specifically watched this stallion expecting his jumping to "wow" me. I liked him even though I thought he was a bit long in the back. In the chute he was better than under saddle - where I personally expected to be "wowwed" but regretably wasn't. I do know he's produced some impressive foals - so I'm he's on my keep watching list - I just really liked the horse. I felt also - he's a big boy and only 5 - our experience with the big horses is that 5 is not their finish point.

Finally - to all the stallion owners - I tip my hat. I may decide to put a few pony boys through in the future and know you are all throwing your hearts out there with your boys and it's a humbling process. I tried very hard during the test to make sure as the Announcer that the Breeder's and Owner's names were announced as often as possible - regardless of the final results you ALL deserved the recognition of sending your horses there to be ridding and training by others out of your control and in many cases away from view!! BRAVO!

[HFSH]

Hi all!

First, I want to thank everyone who attended the Midwest Breeders Group welcome party at the H.I.-Eastgate. What fun we had, even if Ken brought some drama. Thankfully he was okay!

This was the first testing I have attended, and for me it solidifies a few things.

First, did anyone notice that the latest 3 champions of the 100-day test have all been GRAY!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif *grin* Contigo, DiVinci, and now Galeno! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I've also noticed that the top horses have consistenly breen 4- 5- or 6- year olds. To me, this brings up some concerns that I think the Federation needs to address. First I really feel the 5 point penalty for older stallions just doesn't appear to level the playing field. But that is my opinion. Several youngsters did very well, such as Ubilee who was the third highest scoring stallion at the test and he was a young 3yr old. I think there needs to be a cutoff for the age a stallion can be taken. Maybe 5yr olds should be the maximum age allowed, or a graduated penalty system.

Paxton farm was *wow* lovely! I can imagine the shows there must be a whole lotta fun!!

It was wonderful to meet so many CoTH people and to put some faces to the names!

[inca]

I was there for the final testing and thought the test was well-run. All the horses were in very good condition. I DID notice a difference in the training and fitness level of the 30-day horses vs. the 100-day horses. Perhaps the owners of the 30-day horses need a little more direction on how to prepare their horses for the test? I don't know how much input they get prior to sending their horses to the test.

I honestly was only surprised by one of the horses that did not pass. And I had picked Galeno Tyme as the winner and also felt Caleb would be in the Top 3. Since I know Ellen, I was VERY happy for her. Caleb received a 10 on character and a 9 for temperament! (These scores will be published in the ISR Breeder's Guide so I'm not giving away a big secret.)

I actually didn't realize Cathalido did not pass until I got home and read this thread. I just assumed he needed 90 points and did pass. I didn't realize AHHA required 100 points. Will the owner consider presenting him to ISR/Oldenburg NA because his 100-day test score was adequate for that registry (if they accept him based on conformation, etc.)

I do not think it is a bad idea to have a 5 point penalty for every year over the age of 4. But, even if that had been in place, Galeno Tyme would have still been the champion and Caleb would have still been the reserve champion. There was a huge gap between the Champion score, the Reserve Champion score and then all the rest of the scores.

The thing that surprised me the most was that Ubilee scored so high. He was one of my favorites - really good for a 3-yr-old and just "my kind of horse." I expected him to pass but did not expect him to score as highly as he did.

Watching Ken Borden all weekend was quite entertaining! ;-)

I think ALL the stallion owners should be congratulated for sending their boys to the testing and going through the VERY difficult process. I don't think I could do it and I will stick to owning mares!

[ise@ssl]

inca - I know quite a few stallions were presented to the ISR/OLDNA at the testing on Saturday morning - but I don't know the full list. "IF" Cathalido was presented and approved - his score WOULD qualify him for a lifetime breeding license.

[copper bay farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
To Ashemont - regarding why some higher-scoring Hanoverian stallions were not approved while lower-scoring ones were. I am certainly not trying to speak for AHS here, but I think the philosophy with any registry is that there are some stallions that they just don't feel they need in their registry. This comment is not directed at any one horse in particular, but sometimes the horse in question may have conformation issues the registry can't live with, or he may not be the "type" they are trying to promote, or he may not have a strong enough pedigree for the registry. The horse may be a wonderful performer, and may finish the SPT with high scores, but that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't meet the registry's criteria in other areas. He could be perfectly acceptable to another registry, though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Sporthorse South. Also, there are registry rules which may prevent a horse branded as "Hanoverian" from being accepted as a stallion prospect. Drachen Herz for example did very well, but the AHS requires that a stallion's dam and granddam must both be Main Studbook mares. He is out of a Thoroughbred mare, who would have been in the Pre-Studbook or at the most, Studbook, if she had passed her Mare Performance Test and received an upgrade. Her dam would not be in the books at all. Others may or may not have been presented or accepted at licensing. I went to the one at Hilltop this summer and it was extremely hard! Only one new stallion passed out of the youngsters and there were some really nice horses there. The four stallions that passed their licensing for the AHS this year or last did successfully complete the 100-Day Test.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We've also seen many stallions that are in the middle or close to bottom of the pack at the 100 Day Tests that go on to be top performers and/or PRODUCERS. And we all know some of the top horses at the 100 Day tests have gone off the radar screen or not been top producers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And we have also seen horses score 5s in their jumping, go on to be International Jumper superstars. There have also been stallions that did not pass, whose owners believed in, and eventually got them Approved in Germany. Wasn't one of those a horse that has been extremely influential in the breed??

Sorry. All of this tells me it does NOT work.

[ise@ssl]

Actually Fairview - for my breeding program IT DOES WORK because I focuse on Temperament, Willingness to Work etc. I NEED this to consider in stallion selection if I cannot travel to see the stallion because I market to mostly Amateur riders. It would be impossible to analyse that from a stallion tape or just show results IMHO.

[Zydeco Farm]

Just wanted to pass on sincere congrats to the stallion owners who had success with the test and condolences to those of you who did not. I pray for each of you that saw disappointment, that you eventually find truth in the old adage that holds that when one door closes another opens somewhere. I hope that each of you finds that open door in due time and get lots of support along that path.

And Kathy, from Equine Reproduction, I'd like to go on record with ahf when she described you as an old soul. My thirteen year old child reads this forum with me with great interest. Through this thread she learned a great deal about how to deal with disappointment in public with graciousness and poise. Thanks for being such a good role model and helping me impart one of life's important and difficult lessons. I look forward to the future when I can meet you in person at one of your courses. Until then, thanks again.

Sincerely,

Terri

[inca]

I have to agree with Ilona that the 100-day test IS important to me as a mare owner and I think it DOES work. Although there are never any guarantees, I do like to have all those scores available to me. I ALWAYS look at the stallion's 100-day test scores in the breeder's guide before I select a stallion to breed to. I also look to see what he is producing by looking at the scores of his offspring in the breeder's guide. There is a lot of invaluable info in the breeder's guide and I take the 100-day test scores seriously into consideration when picking stallions to breed to.

I think the more offspring a stallion has on the ground and under saddle, the less important the 100 day test scores become, however. If a stallion has enough offspring that are out there competing and doing well, then you can judge the stallion by what he is producing.

I'm thinking next time I breed my Ideal mare (the older one that is out of a TB mare), I will probably breed to Caleb.

[Tiki]

I was not able to go to the test this year, I don't know most of the stallions, I am not a judge or registry inspector, nor do I play one on TV. So please do not take this as a criticism, it is merely an example. ISE said: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Regarding Cathalido - I specifically watched this stallion expecting his jumping to "wow" me. I liked him even though I thought he was a bit long in the back. In the chute he was better than under saddle - where I personally expected to be "wowwed" but regretably wasn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This reminds me of the first mare I took to her Mare Performance Test. She had only about 50-60 days undere saddle. She was presented in hand, turned loose for her free gaits, sent through the jumping chute, and then presented under saddle by her trainer and then ridden by the test rider. When she was presented in hand, she took everyone's breath away. There were oooh's and aaah's all through the audience. She was simply stunning. She did very well in her free gaits and she was quite acceptable in the jumping chute. When she came back under saddle, she looked a little tentative. She was a little afraid of the test rider when he tried to mount her and was a little sticky. She missed the passing score by 1/4 of 1 point. What they are looking for is to see first the free gaits - what nature gave the horse. Then they want to see if she gives those gaits under saddle - that's a huge part of the rideability score. She just flat out didn't have enough time under saddle. Would it help to represent her in a year? Maybe, but her foals are so valuable I rebred her instead.

The test riders ask for a lot of the horse. Sometimes they don't adapt as quickly if only one person has been riding them. The cross country course is huge and long - with a loooong, fast, timed gallop at the end of the course. I also wasn't there when the 30 day horses were trained 'at home'. Did the riders really ask the same questions they do at the test? I don't know.

One thing I have seen is that if the horse has the same gaits in hand, free and under saddle - even if they're not gorgeous, the horse is deemed to be pretty rideable because it gives back to the rider what it shows in nature. If the horse is better under saddle, WOW, it's rideable. If the horse isn't as good, something is missing. I'm sorry, but I just don't see politics here. I also can't in my wildest imagination see them going to a pass/fail test. What on earth would that ever prove?

Again, my heart goes out to the SO's whose stallions didn't make it. It's a long, tough, expensive route, but as a mare owner, the test is maybe only one piece, but an important piece, of the puzzle of whom to breed to.

[ise@ssl]

BTW - for those of you who weren't there - the testing on Saturday ended on a funny note that's worth sharing. We had a reception in the main indoor arena following cross country. Janet Paxton had arranged some wonderful demonstration rides, including two freestyles, some totally cute little girls vaulting and some equally cute pony clubbers riding a quadrille on ponies. But the final act was so fun - it was a quadrille of mini's being driven in harness by four young girls. As they entered the arena and went across the diagonal the Vet's little Jack Russell - all spiffy - in his red coat just trotted in behind them!!! As the announcer I wasn't sure if he was part of the act (HE WASN'T) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif He was so totally taken by these mini's he just kept following and would come up beside each one and cock his head sideways to get a closer look. The audience was, of course, just overwhelmed with laughter. He kept following until they came around the rail by the indoor when he was snatched by his coat and eliminated from the performance!!! It was a much needed moment of levity. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm sure we all would have given him an 8 on TROT!!

[littleum]

Congradulations to all the stallion owners, and condolences to all those who met with disappointment.....I've watched the 100 day tests with interest for years now.

As a note, I'm glad to see Idocus has another approved son (I'm a fan http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)... that gives Idocus his....4th approved son? And I see one of those sons, Opus, now has an approved son in Ubilee. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Cinnybren]

Someone else mentioned this and I'll second. Are there photos of these stallions?

[goosey]

I don't know if there are pictures of the all the stallions posted any where but you can find a picture of Weltanzer on our website www.horsepowerfarm.com (http://www.horsepowerfarm.com) click on the Letter Perfect Stallions tab.

[inca]

Caleb's photo is on Ellen White's web site.

Willow Spring Farm (http://www.wacosporthorse.com)

Click on "Breeding" on the left hand side.

[inca]

Courtney - that link doesn't work!

[Jasmine]

Caleb is beautiful. He was my second pick for winner!

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiki:
I also wasn't there when the 30 day horses were trained 'at home'. Did the riders really ask the same questions they do at the test? . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tiki, this question I CAN answer. When I received my initial application for the 30 DT, the instructions said that they would provide a training guide to me so that I would know exactly what the stallion would be required to do. I NEVER received ANY sort of communication after that, except for asking for payment and his registration papers. No training guide. No guidance at all.

We trained based on what one of the trainers had seen as requirements at the previous 100DT. That was our only option.

As you said, it was one expensive experience...

Oakleigh

[Faiths CremelloWB]

I have not said anything until now... Just too much nerves etc... I just got home with my stallion. He was one of the ones who did not do so well. This was a real eye opener. In so many ways.

I sent my boy with 45 days under saddle and he was doing fantastic at home. We had him jumping a 3' to 3'9" with ease. Free jumping round and relaxed. I went up to visit him, his first week there and he seemed to have settled in well. I went down for the mid point presentation and was not impressed with how he was doing at all. His movement was gone. He was short/choppy and ended up falling after spooking from something at the side of the arena. He was never spooky at home. He was not the same horse at all. I thought about dropping the testing and bringing him home at that point. I opted to keep him there and see how he could/would handle it for the final month. I went down a couple times and he seemed to get a bit better but still no where near what he was at our farm. I took some video and brought it home to have a few different trainers look at him (who knew him prior to leaving for Ohio) They said he looked stiff and not relaxed at all. My thoughts exactly. He did not do well in that setting at all. The absence of any type of turn out, or even a time to just roll out and stretch in some sand was just too much for him to handle amongst many other things I just will not get into. Here he was use to turnout everyday and plenty attention to detail. I feel that attention to detail was really lacking in his case. He had got a small splint some time during the testing that no one knew of and no one called me to tell me about. He has soars on each side of his mouth. Not little ones! I never got any phone calls as to how he was progressing. we were suppose to get bi-weekly e-mails about our stallions, never got any except to let us know about outstanding bills with farrier, vet or buying tickets to the dinner. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

After watching the final days I can see why he did not do well. But that was not the horse I left there 100 days ago. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

I will never do this again. I just hope that my stallion will become soft, relaxed and supple again. He will be going to Florida with me at the end of December with a couple of my other stallions to enjoy a warm winter in training.

As I have learnt so many times over... life is about the journey not a destination... I think that is going to be my new signature line...

Here are a couple of photos of the test riders jumping him... I am so proud of him for being such a good boy and putting up with it all. His temperament and character scores were great as well as his jumping under saddle ones... What makes me feel the worst is looking him in his eyes and knowing what I put him through... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Faiths CremelloWB]

second

[Faiths CremelloWB]

last... I did get some really nice photos from the photographer... I will have new ones on my website in the days to come...

Congrats to all the other stallion owners whos stallions adapted to this testing and did well.

I would like to ad that I would do the 30 day where I provide my own trainer and where I am involved with his everyday decisions... Those stallions seemed to be happier. I also wanted to ad a comment about the stallions that were not entered being let in the 100 days. I was one of them as on the final day of entrys there was still 2 spots left so I was let in. It is in the rules that if there are more stallions than the testing can hold that priority is given to the ones with prior approval...

[Iluvgoldies]

Faiths CremelloWB,

Thank you so much for your post. It is important for us to get some insight from someone who was not so pleased with the test.

I just wanted to say that my heart goes out to you for feeling the way you do - I would feel the same if I saw my happy, relaxed horse change completely.

I understand your poor guy - no turnout http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif!!

[Sonesta]

Let me add my own hearty congratulations to the stallion owners whose horses passed for their registries and my condolences to those who did not. IT was a very good group of stallions - all of whom appeared to have wonderful temperaments and worked hard for their riders. It's always such a shame that the system must allow for some good horses to score less well than we'd like.

Some of my observations:

I do have to say that I did not come away with any huge surprises in the testing. And, as for the 30 day horses: There were 6 of them, but there were only two different trainers. Ken Borden had three and Leanne Szieberth had three. Ken has done this several times before and knows EXACTLY how to prepare his horses. In all fairness, this is the first time for Leanne Szieberth (though she and Andras had a stallion in the 100 day testing in 2002 that was overall 3rd). I think the next time Leanne comes with 30 day horses, they will be even better prepared. It might help to have them ridden by several different riders to that they are not so uncomfortable with strangers on them.

As for the comment that EB had indicated that he does not favor the 30 day testing: I don't think that is the case. He is just concerned that stallion owners must understand that the 30 day testing route is much harder than the 100 day route, because the horses have to be properly conditioned and trained on their own without having the benefit of a full 100 days of being on the same program as the other stallions. This is NOT as easy as it might seem.

On Saturday night, I spent the evening talking with the German riders from the testing. They wanted me to emphasize that the American Stallion owner needs to understand that the 100 day testing is NOT the place where the stallions are supposed to be trained. In Germany, the stallions are trained for many months PRIOR to the 100 day testing (now the 30 day and then the 70 day testing). They are well started under saddle, well trained and VERY well conditioned and legged up before going to the testing. The 100 day testing should be that - a TESTING. The riders all agreed that, while this year the stallions were overall better prepared than years past, many were still not properly prepared. This HAS to end up having an impact on scores.

It is perhaps for this reason that the older, more broke, stallions do better in our testing.


For those of you asking about photos of the stallions in this year's 100 day test: I can do better than that! I was there officially to film the entire thing for the Federation. I will be putting together a video tape of the 2004 testing that will be available in early 2005. It will be available through the Federation's web site, the ISR/ONA web site and my own web site.

[lwmc]

The average warmblood stallion in North America breeds less than 4 mares a year. There are a handfull who breed lots of mares - and a whole bunch who breed none at all. The point here - the breeding industry in North America doesn't really need more stallions. Perhaps one with a brilliant pedigree - or one who was clearly a star - but we really don't need any more ordinary stallions. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the math and figure out that breeding a stallion to less than 4 mares a year doesn't give you a return on the cost of licensing and standing a stallion.

The 100 day test (or the 30 day test) is susposed to help identify the stallion who are above average - from the rest. It would appear that it has suceeded. The stallions at the bottom of the list - maybe they don't really need to be stallions, and instead of frantically searching for options to do an end run around the rules of what ever stud book the horse is licensed with, their owners should just suck it up and cut them.

Its a test - not simply a means to validate the decision that has already been made - usually by the owner - that their horse is a stallion - and they will keep looking until they find someone who will agree with them and give him a license, even if the major requirement is the strength of the owners checkbook.

The system works - maybe not perfectly - but for the most part - it does work. What is the point of going through the exercise, if you don't believe the results.

[merda]

As unpopular as LWMC's point of view will be here, I have to wholeheartedly agree with her.

[KimPeterson]

There have been stallions that have failed or been retested later, and have gone on to be very good sires/or passed through the performance route later in life. I don't know if the testing in of itself is cause to geld - there are also stallions that are just competition horses and do not breed at all...their owners prefer them to have the muscle and stamina added by the testosterone.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Congratulation to those SO whose stallion did well. I am truely happy for you. My sincerest condolences to those of you whose stallions did not do well.

[Hi Jump]

I agree generally the system works but there are clearly many past and present instances where it fails. In their overall career some horses may bear witness that they are more worthy than a single test could determine. Others that undetermined factors are found to negate the judgement of them being superior to breed. Thank you to those who have contributed their experiences, it has been an eye opener.

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hi Jump:
... it has been an eye opener. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, indeed, it has been. More than you will ever know.

Oakleigh

[CenterlineFarm]

I think any stallion owner who sent their horse to a test with only 45 days under saddle should be apologizing to the inspectors and riders for putting them through this, not just their horse. How on earth is a horse supposed to react after such a short time under saddle? How are the trainers supposed to get such a green, unfit horse ready for such an intense competition in just 3 months? The horse should have been started in the spring, some 6 months before at the very least. Some of the horses were 4 years old. They should have had at least a year under saddle by then. In fact almost all of the horses were 4 or older.

This is a TEST! Would you go into a final exam at school after only cramming for one night? Of course not.

I would imagine this test is about how a horse reacts to pressure. How sound it stays, how willing it is to accept new ideas, etc. etc. in addition to how athletic it is. If a young horse was not going well DURING the test, it is NOT in any way the fault of the test or the people who run the test. It is the fault of the people who own or manage the stallion. The horse was probably severely body-sore. A 4 year old horse should have had many different shows/riders/trainers under his belt by then. In Europe most (all?) of the horses are 3 for goodness sake!

Further, if the inspectors at this test feel that a horse is not of sufficient quality to be a stallion after 100 days or even 30 days, then I, as an owner would be very upset. Very sad. Probably mad. But in the end, I would have to admit that they have more experience, are a better, unbiased judge of overall quality than I am and sadly rethink my plans for the horse.

In a much lesser way I have had to do this with mares that I have loved and felt strongly about. And sometimes I even disagreed with the judges. But in the end, I usually saw their point and readjusted accordingly.

Again, I am sorry for those who have invested this time into horses that have not passed. But I for one am very glad that there is some kind of culling system in this country. Everyone who has a colt that they think is pretty dreams of keeping it a stallion. If the quality in North America is to ever match that of Europe, we are going to have to be a little more realistic about how we evaluate a horse.

I can see the quality of horse in North America is getting better and better. It is only through systems like this that it can happen.
If anyone has a better idea, then I think everyone would like to hear it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Well, Nevada has never been to the 100 Day Test, but scoring 138.5 points at the ISR Inspection (140 would have given him permission to go to the testing), and being told by the Belgian Warmblood Inspectors that they would have licensed him in Belgium http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif was absolutely the best thing that ever happened to him. With the average Warmblood stallion getting 4? breedings, Nevada is getting 35 to 40 mares per year - VERY nice mares http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. Knowing that I couldn't have him ride on the coat tails of a registry made me really look at his value as a breeding stallion, and do some major thinking on whether I really wanted to tackle this on my own. I decided to just wait for the first few foal crops, and see if they were truly special. The quality of his foals is speaking for him, louder than any 100 day test, or Registry would be doing. It is a long slow road, and a whole lotta work.

I feel very sorry for all of the stallion owners who have been disappointed, and frustrated by the system. Go home, and give your boys a big hug.

[CenterlineFarm]

Who came up with that statistic of 4 mares per year???
Just curious.

Perhaps it is counting older, or performance-only stallions in the total ratio? I know of at least five 20-something-year-old stallions that do not get breedings anymore. Are they being counted in that final statistic?

I have always thought that Nevada is a nice looking, well bred horse, but perhaps the $500 stud fee also contributes to his large book?
I'll bet if he went to the test and passed, his numbers would double. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[paintedsportponies]

I am finding this thread extremely interesting and educational and wished I had found it before I sent my pony to the stallion testing. Technically ART I DECKED OUT "passed" but it was pretty obvious to me that he was far from ready for this test as I watched his performances. I obviously made a very bad decision leaving a very unfit and green pony at the testing site once he was evaluated when he arrived.

While the pony obviously did not have fun I had a wonderful time and met some really great people!

Does anyone have pictures of ART I DECKED OUT at the test? The photographer didn't take photos of the pony on some of his performances because he didn't realize that there were ponies going after the horses. I will be happy to pay for any photos even if they are not "professional"...

Please email me if you can help at paintedsportponies@cfl.rr.com

And how do you start a topic on this forum?

[paintedsportponies]

I just reread my post and want to clarify that the photographer did take some wonderful photos of my pony and I purchased this one of the free jumping phase. Very nice guy and he was very apologetic for the photos he missed...

Here is a link to a pic of my pony...

http://imageevent.com/secondwindfarms/ibelieveinmagic?p=16&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2

[Halfhalting]

Well, I would <span class="ev_code_RED">LOVE</span> to have the BIG horses pictured on this thread AND the little horses (but obviously big hearted!)pictured on this thread!! These guys look beautiful to me! Congratulations to you breeders and owners for getting great stallions raised, to testing, and out for all of us to enjoy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Reg Corkum]

Where are all the photographs from the testing????

At my house.... it seems!!!!!

I am currently up to my ears in them, and I am working around the clock to get them finished and mailed.

If you could see me now, I give "eyes looking like Pizzzzz Holes in a Snow Bank" new meaning!!!

...and please excuse that term, it just feels all too adequate at this point in time.

I would certainly like to take a moment to thank those who help put together the effort to bring me there. Kathy especially. I tip my hat to.

"Modesty, Gracious,and most Congenial... are only a few words that top the list regarding this most remarkable woman." Out of a possible 10, I would rate her a 12 on temperament.

Now I must get back to work, or I will be accused of "dillydallying" and "lollylagging" and other horribly insulting things...

I will be back when the work is done.

Thank you again for having me come. I feel most priviledged.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Before I sent my stallion I was told that what he had done was sufficient and that they were to be in "training" for the majority of the 100 days. I have never done this before so I was relying on what the EB and the training director had told me. I would have had no problem bringing him home if after 30 days or so they felt he was no capable of keeping up. At the mid point all stallion owners were told as a group that if the training director felt any of the stallions did not have a chance or were having issues then they would be addressed. No, one said anything negative about him, actually they never talked to me much at all.

I realize now that it was more of a test and not training. But that was not how it was put to me throughout the test. This is something that they "the directors" should have brought up with me at the start. In the future they need to tell and make it obvious that this is a TEST not training. Should I have known that I would not have sent him, obviously. He had a great foundation on him and I thought it would be perfect for him to be under some real professional german riders who would be training him for the next 100days. And sending him in, I thought even if he did not pass he would get some awesome training and come home with a load of experience under his belt.

I will be getting up on my boy today so it will be interesting to see if he has learnt anything...

[serenityfarm]

Does anyone know what the Belgium and RPSI registries require for a score from the 100 day test?

[Marieke]

I know with the KWPN that if during the testing it becomes apparent the stallion can't handle the situation, the owner is called and adviced to pick him up. Why does that not happen here?

And not passing does not mean much in the end, though I do think it is a tool.

I remember 2 stallions that were owned by a stallion owner that I used to ride for. One, in our eyes, most defenitely was the better one. They both were sent to the testing. Right before the halfway point the SO got a call to come and pick up the better horse of the 2. We were like what? Totally unexpected.

2 years down the road, the stallion that passed the inspection/testing is gelded and sold. Breeders just weren't interested in him. He had like 10 breedings in his first year. The other, that didn't pass the testing, was presented and approved AES and Zangersheide, and is doing really really well, such nice babies. We thought he was the better horse and he had over 150 breedings last year. He sweeps the competition and literally beats his collegue stallions that did pass the testing. Yet when he was put under pressure of the 70-day testing at age 3, he just couldn't make it.

[cyriz's mom]

sf - RPSI requires 90 and Belgium is either 80 or maybe 85...as Addison received an 89 and that was sufficient for his license.

I am absolutely exhausted. We got home at 2 am this morning and I woke up at 6:15 and gave up on sleeping at 6:45. What the fuh???

I have many thoughts running through my mind regarding the testing and once the thoughts are more cohesive and I'm more coherent, I'll post them.

At this point, I will say congrats to all the SOs. It was a great group of stallions! And an even more awesome group of owners...as a whole everyone was very supportive of each other and all wanted all the boys to do well. Until you put a stallion through, you cannot imagine how stressful it is and the emotional rollercoaster you ride. You analyze every little thing to the nth degree, trying to get some idea of how your boy is doing.

I am so proud of Cyriz. He received his lifetime breeding license from the RPSI. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I was disappointed in a couple of his scores, but in hindsight, I take responsibility for them as I think he should have been prepared a little differently. More on my thoughts later.

It was such fun meeting so many COTHer's! What a great group of people!

[Equine Reproduction]

First, let me say thank you to those of you offering support and for the kind comments made here. It has taken a little bit of the disappointment out of the situation and warmed my heart. I suspect my husband may have a different view of some of my more neurotic moments http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And, if any of you get the opportunity to use Reg as a photographer, do so!! He is phenomenal and just plain fun to be around!

With that said, I think I certainly qualify to offer my opinions here, especially as I have sent two stallions through the testing - one successfully and one not so successfully &lt;smile&gt;.

Waterford didn't perform as well as we had hoped - obviously, or we wouldn't have sent him! It has also now been suggested that he might do better in the hunter ring as opposed to one of the Olympic disciplines and unfortunately, the 100 DT does not "screen" for that. As many will tell you at the end of the test, we were concerned by what we saw during his final performances, didn't believe he would pass.

Were we disappointed? Yup! Such is life. Would we send another stallion through? You bet! we believe in the system. We also recognize that just because a stallion doesn't pass, it isn't the kiss of death! It's a TOUGH process, and if a stallion comes through it sound and sane, he's proven himself as an incredible athlete - maybe not sufficiently to be a breeding stallion, but certainly as a quality performance horse. And, as others have noted here, there are some stallions that will fail the testing and go on to test again (Wendepunkt failed his first testing and passed on a subsequent test) or prove themselves through performance. This particular testing was interesting in that ALL of the stallions in the testing were incredibly easy going guys!

The testing is tough! It's meant to be! The idea is to move sport horse breeding forward, and while it may not be a perfect system, it "does" work! Let's put it this way...You've got a room full of 20 geniuses and you've got to narrow it down to the top 15... Obviously the "losing" five are nothing to sneeze at. It is also important that the testing be performed in a manner similar to that used in Europe. This puts our approved stallions on a par with those approved in Europe - let's face it, in many cases the bloodlines are very similar, so it is important that to become an approved stallion the same approval system is used. If it's not, we will never be rid of the "if it comes from Europe it must be better" stigma that constantly dogs the North American bred stallion.

So - to reiterate the point - are we disappointed? Of course. Do we have anything to complain about? No. The training, conditioning and care of the stallions was exemplary. Will we do it again? We sure hope so! All we need to do is find our prospect and we'll be right back at it!

And, just for fun, when Reg gets a few more photos of Waterford together...I'll post some photos of the losing stallion for all of you to see &lt;sad smile&gt;...It will give you a WHOLE new appreciation for just how spectacular the stallions are that go through this process. As I said before, I would have NO problem putting ANY of the stallions that were at the testing in my barn...

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://wwww.equine-reproduction.com

[Fairview Horse Center]

CenterlineFarm
Thank-you, but I am sure the testing would not matter much at all to Nevada's numbers. His fee is definitely one of the reasons for his book - it makes people look. And when they look, they are surprised by what they find, and send him that "other" mare they have. You know, the one that is really nice, but with no papers. And then the next spring, they are blown away with what they get, especially as they like the Nevada foal much more than their foal out of their fully papered, and approved warmblood mare, bred with the expensive Approved stallion. and then we get that mare http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif it's an education process http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

At Nevada's inspection, it was suggested that we represent him when he matured. Others that he scored higher than were represented, and fully approved, but that route is just not one I believe in. It does give people scores, that would rather put their faith in someone else. I have seen 100 Day test winners, be total buttheads a few years later at shows.

And the #1 reason I would never send a stallion: my requirement of turnout for a large portion of a horse's day.

[KimPeterson]

Kathy,
Is Waterford going to continue at stud/performance route?? I would love to see new photos of him when you get a chance.

DOes anyone have video from the final days of the testing?? If you could make me copy I would pay for the video cassette, shipping, anything else -- I really wished I could have gone -- and really want to see how they had the horses traveling and what they did with them on the final days. Any tape at all would be wonderful... OHFNJ@aol.com Kim

[Jasmine]

Paintedsportponies, you have a PT. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Equine Reproduction]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OceanHeightsFarm:
Kathy,
Is Waterford going to continue at stud/performance route?? I would love to see new photos of him when you get a chance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know yet. He's just four and as anyone that saw him at the testing will say, he looks like a teenage kid. He's butt high right now and still has some growing to do. So, for now, he'll go home and get some down time to grow up for awhile. Jos and I are discussing our options. Anyone know of a really good hunter rider thats looking for a phenomenal mount? &lt;smile&gt;...

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[ise@ssl]

Well as a mare owner - as stated before this is just one part of the selection process and we look closely at the individual scores - some matter ...some don't... and that varies from mare to mare.

The stallion owners will probably benefit from watching the videos of their stallions and the others as well. Yes,I know you all watched but I know from watching videos of my mares and foals at inspections - I did often have in an "immediate" different opinion often tempered with emotion but in most instances when I watched the tapes of my horses/ponies and all the other presented I could see much much more and you really have to be open-minded in this process.

Owning a horse is the Owner's responsbility - my opinion. Sending them for training or to a test like this should include input from others both before and during the process BUT - I feel strongly if you aren't comfortable or don't like what you see - well - it's your horse.

Many of the stallions that now stand go on to breed many mares, some a few and some none - the market takes over from this point and for the most part it's the MARE OWNERS that make the decisions if a stallion is standing to a sufficient number of mares to be economically viable.

I, personally, wouldn't send a horse/pony to the testing that hadn't been presented to at least one registry for approval. Somehow I feel those "other eyes" are a requisite - JMHO. And as far as under saddle training - having a good solid 3 months (6 would be better) under saddle would be my minimum. But I must say I was totally impressed with Art I Decked Out who only had 60 days under his belt at the test - I felt his pony had a great focus and his score was impressive.

But the reality is - our testing CANNOT be exactly like Europe because Europe has so many tests - EVERY YEAR. The current test is excellent and provides the challenge to the stallions IT MUST PROVIDE. The decision to go 100 or 30 days is up to the owner and we all know that having a rider who can be there for 30 days is often an impossibility. Not sure about the other registries but the ISR/OLDNA had a record # of stallions presented for approval this year - so given the timing of inspections there was a late surge in stallions wanting to come to the testing and HATS OFF to the testing team for accomodating as many as they could.

Speaking as a mare owner - I'm sure there will be lot of phone calls and email to Kansas http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but many of the mare owners clearly DO NOT jump to the top stallions all the time - the foal reports from the years following prove that out.

Nice to see a TB in the test!! He's like a little black cat and WOW on the cross country - I'll be he could have gone around again!

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'll bet he could have gone around again! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We heard this too, that Cyriz had an amazing CC round and looked like he could have gone again. Go Thoroughbreds!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jasmine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equine Reproduction:
Anyone know of a really good hunter rider thats looking for a phenomenal mount? &lt;smile&gt;...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but he's only 14 and lives in Wisconsin. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I don't think he's up to a cross country move yet.

[crestline]

Hey everyone-
Just rolled back into town last night and I have to say how much I enjoyed meeting everyone in person.

I must say as someone who went to the test at the last minute and unsure if it were the best choice for us, I would do it again in a heartbeat....although if I'd have known we would have to go to Ohio I would have gone as a 5yo and not as a 7yo....so much for waiting for California as that sure didn't work out! For example...I know if we'd gone as a 5yo we'd have probably seen some of Palladio's hearstopping 6 foot in the air over the free jump antics...but he's outgrown that. He's very business-like in the chute and a bit bored by it....really at his age it would be detrimental to his jumping if he were still hanging in the air way up over a fence...that would kill our time in the jumper classes....Before he had some miles we used to get some big, wild, show-stopping free jumps. Not that our jumping score was bad at all...his form and technique are as super as ever...just didn't have the same crazy overjump factor that it did when he was learning. But the judges still liked what they saw so not a big deal.

From watching the horses from the start, middle and finals, I didn't think there were any huge surprises as to who would be towards the top, middle and towards the end of the group. Yes, some did a little better or worse than it seemed they would but it was not like the horses that came in looking to win the whole thing finished at the bottom of the pack.

I think the riders and grooms were a super group that took their jobs VERY seriously. They wanted all the horses to do well.

My condolances to the stallion owners whose horses did not pass and congrats to the ones that did. It was a pleasure getting to meet and talk with each of you.

Kathy-Thank you again for organizing the gift basket for the riders. They told us Saturday how much fun they had going thorough it. I think it came out super.

[Cartier]

Congratulations Andrea…

Was just thinking… isn't Palladio now the highest scoring colored WB stallion in the world? I realize it's just a score (and tests over the years should not be compared to one another), but it is kind of a cool statistic.

[Tiki]

Just as a point of interest with all the flap about the 30 Day Test 'problems' - and with NO intention of hurting anyone's feelings - this is just an observation. I was not there, but in looking at the results, a couple of horses there for the whole 100 days wound up at the bottom of the heap, and Ubilee, who was there for only the 30 days wound up 3rd overall, and the 2 ponies seemed to do just fine. It doesn't seem that the length of time the stallions were there had anything in particular to do with the results. The lack of promised conditioning information may have had more to do with it than the actual length of time they were there. I don't see this as a killing blow to the 30 Day Test.

[CenterlineFarm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And the #1 reason I would never send a stallion: my requirement of turnout for a large portion of a horse's day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. Horses should be allowed to be horses.

HOWEVER can you imagine the hoopla if someone turned out a stallion who bucked and slipped and injured itself??

THEN it would be ALL the Test's fault and '...I would NEVER send my horse again!' and '...How dare they do that to my horse!'

What a nightmare.

And quite honestly, ANY horse should be able to be confined for 3 months coupled with regular exercise and not..
a) go crazy
b) develop vices (isn't that part of the scoring as well?)
c) go lame.

You can't please everybody...especially if they are horse people.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I personally believe that horses are MORE inclined to injure themselves, colic, etc if locked up, and I would certainly not hold it against anyone if my horse got injured when turned out. Shouldn't these horses be able to run and buck in a field without hurting themselves? Are we breeding hothouse plants?

Mentally torture them for 100 days and see who does not go crazy. Uhhuh sign me up http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Sonesta]

In all fairness, there is NO PLACE to turn out 27 stallions at Paxton Farms - or anyplace else I can think of the in US that would be suitable for a 10 day test. The stallions are certainly not turned out in the testing in Germany! These horses were exercised regulary and WERE at liberty several times a week when they worked at free jumping in the arenas.

[Tiki]

I also think that when they are in such concentrated training and work that they don't suffer the same problems with not being turned out than if they're not ridden regularly - or for only a half hour a day. It's the breeding stock and young stock that really need the turnout. The Lippizans of Vienna don't get turned out AND they live in large straight stalls. I don't think they suffer for it as they're all in regular work and training.

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are a lot of horses that never get turned out. And if Germany wants to "test" the stallions with burrs under their saddle pads, that doesn't mean I think it is right, or not cruel, or something I would be willing to do to my horses.

I am so committed to turning out, that I get up in the middle of each night to switch my stallions in the big field. It is the LEAST I can do for them since I am keeping stallions, and they do SO much for me. Will they cope with being locked up - absolutely. They just look at me with sad eyes.

[Ashemont]

Bad as the testing was that we sent Pikor to the stallions DID get some turnout. It is definitely possible to turn stallions out on a rotating basis. Maybe not 24/7 or even for hours but just giving them an hour every other day would do wonders.

ALL of my horses get to live like horses and I would hate to send any of them someplace where they could not run and buck and get the kinks out... or have a good roll.

[showjumpers66]

Cyriz's Mom, do share when you have had a chance to catch up!

[ise@ssl]

Well it's easy to say - oh if they turned my horse out and he injured himself - I wouldn't hold it against them. Emotions are high during these 100 days - ASK THE OWNERS. If you knew the barns where the stallions were they had plenty to look at while in the stalls - and they did have a daily work schedule that was probably more than the majority of individual owners give them. It's important to keep them sound and with only minor issues all these boys came through fine. Were they probably a bit sore and tired after the final days - well YES - but many horses are often that way after a big show which doesn't even come close to these demands. Stallions require a certain height of fence. While there is one there by the arenas that has that heigh of fence - I'd wonder what training would have to suffer to have staff walking 20+ stallions back and forth for turn out. Helmut gave a lengthy comment on how the stallions owners should handle their boys when they get home - how to "let them down" for the testing and he also stated they should then be turned out for a month.

They were treated so well - let's not be so catty. Those grooms and riders were seem by me and other many times during the test kissing these boys on the nose and there was clearly a level of care and concern that was hear-warming. One stallion coming off the final gallop after the Vet check with his cooler off - pulled one groom off her feet but she didn't let go - so he wouldn't be at risk of tearing around the barn area and was pulled across the ground.

I have every confidence these horses had the best care - they looked great and handled the final days very well. Some did very well, some came in the middle and some didn't pass. That's the way it works. Monday-morning quarterbacking that perhaps with turnout a stallion would have passed could be true but the PROBABILITY that some stallions could have had soft tissue injuries tearing around a paddock with "poop" from 20 other boys on the ground is much higher IMHO.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I never gave any comment on whether a stallion would do better or not with turnout, only that I would never put my boys in a place where they would not have regular turnout. I KNOW all the arguements from the Germans and many show people on how they "can't risk injury because their horse is too expensive", but that is simply not true. When I have been in places that did not have much or any turnout, those were the horses that DID have regular soft tissue injuries. Horses only worked are ALWAYS pushed to their maximum conditioning. Horses that are turned out in addition, have a buffer zone.

Horses that get REGULAR turnout don't tear around, and especially stallions that will happily spend their couple of hours trotting from pile to pile to mark them. It is hard to MAKE them get up a full head of steam - even if you chase them with a whip.

A simple solution is to just turn them out immediately after they have been ridden. They can relax, have a nice roll in the grass, etc.

IMO the boys work too hard to NOT give them a little bit of free time.

[ise@ssl]

Fairview - all of my 20 horses/ponies here at my farm get turn out every day that weather permits. They range in age from weanlings to 22 years of age and are out all day in the colder weather and all night in the summer weather. And by golly there ARE DAYS when they tear around the fields - could be the change in weather or when they shifted to different fields - the moon - who knows!! Sometimes it's one group and sometimes it's another and sometimes they are all on their toes. Today the Hunt was out and the hounds came back up to the fenceline - some of the horses could care less - some were racing around with tails flagged.

The horses we have up the road in training are out for 3 hours a day but sometimes weather doesn't permit it. We do have occasional cuts, scrapes or soft tissue swelling if they have a real romp day.

This happens. At Paxton with one stallion paddock - how could they possibly achieve this after work turnout with the riders on 4 horses at a time and the grooms charged with preparing the next 3 or 4?

If owners don't want this route for approval they do have the performance route. It's a choice they have to make. But with performance you also have the necessity to travel, and board at various shows - no turn out there and some of those stalls are an accident waiting to happen. Often shows don't focus on whether mares or stallions are near each other.

There's upside and downside to both - but ultimately it's the stallion owners choice.

[Fairview Horse Center]

To me, a suitable facility would have sufficient turnout fields - just as important as an arena. Other stallion owners can make their own choice, I only stated that it is incredibly important to me, and is one of the reasons why I would never consider sending one.

[inca]

I certainly believe in turn out and my horses can usually come and go as they please between their stalls and the pasture. But, my mare was on stall rest for 9 1/2 months due to a severe injury. She stayed sane and happy with 4 1/2 months of only leaving the stall once a month to go to the vets. For the last 5 months she got out almost every day for handwalking. It is not ideal for horses not to have turn out but with proper management they can survive short times without turn out. But, as has been said, it is certainly each horse owner's choice to decide what is and is not acceptable.

I'm glad some stallion owners choose to send their stallions so we can have APPROVED stallions available to breed to. As a mare owner, I would never breed to an unapproved stallion. I suppose if I was keeping the foal for myself, I might. But, if you are breeding to sell, those registration papers and knowing the stallion has been approved and is of a certain quality is a must in my book. Of course that is just my opinion and I guess there must be plenty of mare owners out there who don't care or else the unapproved stallions wouldn't get any bookings.

[siegi b.]

As a long time breeder I welcome the 100/30 day testing available in this country. How else can we as mare owners look at young stallions and know about their performance capabilities? The testing also gives me a basis for comparison between the different animals and that is important in my stallion choice as well.
Unless their particular registry has it's own stringent performance requirements with grades given to the different gaits, jumping ability, temperament, etc., how is a mare owner to know about these things?
And yes, I will only breed to approved stallions because doing so takes away a lot of the guessing AND provides me with registration papers for my foals. I also think that any serious breeder will do likewise.
To say that you wouldn't send your stallion to the testing because of lack of turn out is a ridiculous argument. The horses tested get PLENTY of exercise every day and don't require another 8 hours in a field somewhere. Besides, the liability issue that has already been addressed is a real one.

[Sonesta]

I feel as siegi b. does. The 100 day testing is a very valuable process and as a mare owner, I would NOT breed to a stallion who has not passed the testing.

No one who was there can credibly argue that these horses were "stir crazy"from lack of turnout or that they were not very well cared for (and cared ABOUT) by the riders, groom and staff. Some handled the training process better than others as will always be the case. Perhaps better or longer preparation MIGHT have made a difference for some, but if all came in with completely thorough and equally good preparation, I don't think there would have been any really significant differences. The statistical program that grades the testing would adjust accordingly.

And let's not forget that those horses who did not "pass" are NOT crap. They were all lovely horses that anyone would be proud to own and show. Not every male horse whose owner adores him can be an approved stallion. And that is the way our breeding will continue to improve.

[Linus]

See, I don't see any cattiness in FHC's comments at all. There are many different turnout philosophies, and she happens to subscribe to one that favors as much turnout as possible (as do I).

I wouldn't sell my horse to a home without at least 8-hr-a-day turnout, and I wouldn't send him anywhere for an extended period of time without turnout, either. I don't care how many people do it -- I know he wouldn't appreciate it. He gets pissed off enough when weather forces us to keep him in a for a day -- I would hate to see what more would do.

Doesn't mean I think people who don't turn out are bad horse people. The 100DT people probably ARE doing the best they can. I just personally wouldn't do it.

Of course, my horse is a gelding...

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>is of a certain quality is a must in my book <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> grades given to the different gaits, jumping ability, temperament, etc., how is a mare owner to know about these things <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A certain quality IS a must - no doubt about it, but a mare owner should be able to judge quality of gaits, athletic ability, quality of jump, and temperament as much as the testing will tell for themselves. A good video will show these things, and most mare owners DO choose to visit the stallion to see temperament themselves. If not, how are you judging your mares? How are you listing attributes of your foals for sale?

The testing does give you a number, but those numbers have been off in many cases. We have seen stallions that score very well in the 100 day test including temperament that are total buttheads and dangerous. Some have been kicked out of BNTs barns because of how dangerous they are. Some have scored poorly in jumping, and then becaome international jumpers. I just simply have not seen that the testing is all that accurate.

Stallion owners can choose for themselves if they believe it is the right thing for them, and their horse. Other stallion owners may choose to not go that route. I have chosen to prove my stallions by the quality of their foals. We have to do what we believe is right for our program, and our horses.

I too was once a person that boldly stated I would NEVER breed to an unlicensed stallion. Several close friends LOVE to tease me about that. I also have other people that have stated the same thing, and now choose to open their eyes and look at everything that is available to see what will give them the best horse, not the best papers. I also want to have a piece of paper to prove who my youngsters are, and I do peruse the most credible paper possible for whatever foal I have that I believe is the best FOAL possible, and yes I have turned down FREE breedings with Approved stallions because I believe what my boys are producing is better than what I would have gotten.

It is a big world out there, with lots of choices - enough for everyone.

[ise@ssl]

Linus - I'm just curious how you monitor that the horses you sell are getting this minimum 8 hour turn out per day? Sounds impossible unless they are down the road.

Also Fairview- not sure how you get registration papers on foals by un-approved stallions. And I'll let your comments on the total failure of the testing and the sweeping comments on how horrible the stallions who've been approved stand as your opinion based on having seen, ridden and evaluated their show records.

Any "good" sales tape can show you three good gaits - sometimes after hours of taping and a good edit job!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif What it won't show is a score based on the horse being evaluated over 100 Days. Also the rideability, willingness to work, etc. won't always show up in video. We do look at them as yet another piece of the decision making process. As far as going to see every stallion - well I don't have that much money - though I do love to travel - but I would have had to travel to several areas of CA - 5 times, Oregon, Florida - 4 times, North Carolina, Minnesota - 2 times, Maryland - 3 times, New York - 2 times, Virginia - 7 times, Colorado, South Carolina, Illinois, Washington,
Pennsylvania, and I'm sure I've forgotten some. Thankfully I did see some stallions at the various testings when they were younger or at Dressage at Devon or other shows. I could never have gone to see everyone even if I wanted to!

We also want our offspring to have registration papers that don't limit THEIR future breeding careers. We've hosted too many inspections to see the disheartened mare owners that have no papers or papers that aren't acceptable on mares that score well and have to accept they won't be in the Main or Premium Mare books. Or some registries that won't accept them at all.

If a stallion hasn't done the performance or 100 Day test - the only thing you have to go on is the pedigree (if it can be verified) and what's in front of you and how it moves on that day. I need more than that.

Fairview I looked at your website - do I understand correctly that AWS approved stallions have absolutely NO performance or testing requirements to be licensed?

[Fairview Horse Center]

We do get Certificates of Pedigree from the American Hanoverian Society, Oldenburg Registries, and Belgian Warmblood Registries. Some foals are also eligible for Dutch Registration papers. CPs let them be able to compete in individual breed classes, be eligible for breed awards, and be eligible for inspection in some studbooks. It does not let them be stallion prospects. Since well over 95% of the buyers are looking for riding horses, not breeding animals, that works very well for us. The fillies CAN go on to produce registered and branded foals. This has been totally acceptable and clearly stated to the people we have had purchase our youngsters.

the "sweeping comments" were that some of the scores have been wrong, but that is your prerogative to trust them or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If a stallion hasn't done the performance or 100 Day test - the only thing you have to go on is the pedigree (if it can be verified) and what's in front of you and how it moves on that day. I need more than that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many people breed to licensed stallions BEFORE they go thru the testing. No rideability or temperament score - just conformation, gaits and jump. Those things should be able to be evaluated by an breeder.

I have also seen Dutch Ster mares only be placed in the Oldenburg mare book - NOT main mare book, so paperwork (and obviously quality - at least according to the Dutch) is not a guarantee of any book.

I don't have faith in the inspection process. I came to this decision due to what I have seen at many inspections, and many breeds. It is very political. I have seen fully licensed stallions (in Europe) be imported and go thru the performance route thru Grand Prix, and still not get their approval. I have seen quite a few stallions with good temperament scores that IMO were totally WRONG. I am a reasonably intelligent person, with a fairly good eye, and I can see these things for myself. I will NEVER just accept what some "power that be" says is fact. The things I have seen is what made me begin to question just trusting others for my knowledge. I have always been a person that wants to know for myself the "whys", and the "whats" of what I am doing.

The AWS does require Inspection OR Performance scores to be licensed. Scores can be from In-hand shows. I only went with them because all scores can be from USEF or International Judges - bypassing any possible registry politics. Nevada's qualifying scores were from the Dutch Judge at Devon, as well as several Sporthorse judges including J. Ashton Moore - President (at the time) of the Dutch Warmblood Registry. Stallions can also be Approved with the AWS by the scores of their offspring. Nevada has both.

[Jair]

How come you don't compete Nevada FHC? He looks very cute in his pictures on his website - but his show record is only in-hand stuff.

He looks like he would be super-cute as a jr. hunter etc. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[CuriosoJorge]

Jair, the horse would have to be gelded to do the junior hunters, which would kind of defeat the purpose. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

We did show him once in the Schooling Jumpers. He jumped around 3 clean rounds.

Nevada has a pretty hectic breeding schedule. Until this year, we were hauling out for collections - usually a 4 hour round trip, and were dependent on what ever the vet's schedule was. Hard to set up a riding or training session when 4 days out of 7, we were jumping on the van in a few minutes notice. I have a rider that comes in and works him here, but only about twice a month. He does a nice training level test, and lenghenings, jumps around a 2'6" course with a few 3' and 3'6" jumps thrown in. Just can't get the conditioning on him to show. Some of the kids/boarders ride him occasionally.

BTW, Junior Hunters can't be stallions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[crestline]

Let me throw an idea out there...

Perhaps some of the perceived problems that people have with the test is not the test itself but their impression of what the test is supposed to be testing for...

For example, the guest riders are there to give scores on RIDABILITY...not Grand Prix potential. I know I spoke with the jumper riders both at length after the testing and they explained clearly what they had been asked to judge. Not the horse that made them say...WOW...I want to jump this one...but WOW this one is ridable. It seems more of a test for user friendly than raw jumping ability...so yes,I could see it happen that a rather unrideable young jumper could score very poorly in this catagory yet a pro could take it to the top later in it's career. I think this is why the test is a good tool to evaluate a stallion but you need to look at the other info available on each stallion as well.

Overall...the final jumping and dressage indexes did generally say which horses leaned more towards what dicipline...so I feel there is something that mare owners can learn from the results....but they do need to look at the whole picture.

On another note, as far as the turnout issue goes....I am someone whose stallion was a little stir crazy as he loves his turnout and playtime...not a big deal but certainly fit and played pretty good before free jumping. It was nice that he had some playtime on free jumping days throughtout the test and did lots of outdoor conditioning to keep his mind fresh. At the end of the day I think I can safely say that this three months with little turnout is not wildly different from the time we would spend at shows without turnout if we went the performance route. Yes, there are breaks between shows but also lots of traveling, new environments and other stressors that should be taken into account as well.

Let's face it...there just isn't a slam dunk easy road to getting a horse approved...

[mmaurer]

okay so now to ask a question I haven't seen yet. Those of you with stallions that passed(congrats) are you going to still do performance and shows with your stallions? Or is it a " we have our liscense and are done now" type of thing. I mean seriously show, not just one or two shows a year???

and if you aren't why not???

and yes you can tell me to bugg off http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ise@ssl]

Crestline you make some great points. What we wanted to see was the raw jumping talent in the chute and then how they handled themselves under saddle over fences with the guest riders. It was super that they had two riders with one more a jumper rider and one more a hunter rider. Nice to see if the horses natural jumping talent was less, same or more under saddle with either style of rider. Also compared that to how they handled themselves at the obstacles cross country which is a different challenge ridden by their test riders.

With the basic gaits we could see how they moved under the test riders with the straight forward, w/t/c/g; how that worked with the three test riders (again with different styles); putting the basic gaits into a dressage test with the test riders and then again out on the cross country course. Some improved, some didn't, some stayed the same.

I can't buy the concept that the stallion approvals are so wrought with politics - there's personal preferences especially for type in every person and registry and at every breed show. We all see it from year to year at DAD and other big shows. Sometimes people get lucky and sometimes they don't. We don't all agree with the judges all the time but that's life. There's no behind the scenes colusion or conspiracy to approve or no approve stallions.

I just don't feel performance or 100 Day testing is some how equal to in-hand show competition. The in-hand show competition is comparable to the licensing procedure by the various registries - so for me it's redundant. And I'm sure we all have show judges whose opinions matter to us and others that don't.

Paperwork is certainly not a guarantee of scoring for breeding approval. And perhaps what you don't understand, Fairview, is that a stallions performance or approval in Europe is not a guarantee of approval here, because the registries here may have enough stallion of that "type" and feel the one in front of them is not better than the ones they already have in the book. There are more nuances to this approval process and again. I'm a bit confused that you reject the process of the testing/performance requirement which has been a foundation for the warmblood breeding programs - yet rely on those very same sires/or dam or dam sire's to promote your stallions. If you reject the process - how do you then use those horses who have come through the process to market your foals/stallions??

I also don't feel the statement the "scores were wrong" - the scores the stallions receive are in some instances the average of what the 3 judges saw in front of them; average of the 3 dressage riders or average of the 2 jumper riders. It also relies on the comments and scoring of all the test riders and the test leader. While we all might not agree on the scores - to say they are wrong - begs the question - relative to what? Someone else's opinion?? These are young horses for the most part and we all know change does occur - but that can also be said for stallions who have WON big time in the Stallion class at such shows as DAD and gone right off the radar screen for producing PERFORMANCE horses. If it were just about the breed shows - we would begin to see what we have in the Hunter world - with the Breed Show horses and the performance horses - for the most part being two different groups of horses. That also happens with the QH's.

I have to breed for performance and rideability to sell them - many of which we train. The major market in this country is Amateurs so temperament and rideability are key - JMHO.

[CenterlineFarm]

In order for the quality of the Sporthorse to go forward we need to have some basic teting/culling system.

This country is too big - It is not possible for the average mare owner/potential stallion owner to look at hundreds of different horses a year in order to develop an eye.

We are too ready to make pets of our horses - everyone wants to keep their baby a stallion or breed their lame mare.

There may be politics.
There may be loopholes.
There may be errors.
There may be horses that 'defy the odds' and go ahead to be Gold Medalists.

But in general it is the best system that works. As a mare owner who has invested considerable time and effort and lots of money in improving my mare band to the highest quality I can (and plan on constantly working towards ever higher ideals), I would NEVER, EVER breed to any stallion that has not been tested in either the highest levels in the show ring or in the 100 day test and preferably both.

There may be nice unapproved horses out there. But I have invested too much time and energy to take a chance on having my quality level go down. I NEED some help when I make breeding decisions. I consider the judges and inspectors my 'helpers' when I make a decision.

There may be unapproved stallions that are getting lots of breedings. So what. They are usually getting a lower quality of mare. And that is fine. There is a difference between breeding hobby/fun horses and trying to produce real quality animals. Ask any breeder who has been at it for years. Most of us have versions of both in their breeding barn. (THIS mare is my best mare, she only gets bred to fancy-pants stallions... THIS mare is just a good girl and gets the guy down the street)

There is a place for both and there is a market for both. If you do not send your stallion to the test either it is because you don't have the guts, or you don't have the money. Fair enough, I am not sure if I have the guts and I know I do not have the money. But do not try to pretend higher ideals and morality as a reason for not participating.

I would have no where to turn if I did not have the eyes of dozens of professionals looking at these guys. It is a thankless job and I for one am THANKFUL that there are organizations and dedicated people out there willing to do it.

edited to say.... actually I would breed to an untested horse if I was prepared to be dissapointed with the result and wanted to try it just for fun.

[Sonesta]

Well said, Centerlinefarm!

[WinDayDän]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CenterlineFarm:
THEN it would be ALL the Test's fault and '...I would NEVER send my horse again!' and '...How dare they do that to my horse!'

What a nightmare. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
From what I understand, they did incredibly worse to those poor boys than not turn them out. I would never ever sent my stallion to the test in ohio. Never.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And quite honestly, ANY horse should be able to be confined for 3 months coupled with regular exercise and not..
a) go crazy
b) develop vices (isn't that part of the scoring as well?)
c) go lame. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Once again, I believe you are misinformed about the situation.

[WinDayDän]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sonesta:
In all fairness, there is NO PLACE to turn out 27 stallions at Paxton Farms - or anyplace else I can think of the in US that would be suitable for a 10 day test. The stallions are certainly not turned out in the testing in Germany! These horses were exercised regulary and WERE at liberty several times a week when they worked at free jumping in the arenas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Paxton had a round pen, one could turn out there even though of the size
<LI>How long, on average, do you know the boys were worked under saddle
<LI>When at liberty for free jumping, they were being asked to WORK, not allowed anytime to unwind[/list]

[WinDayDän]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
I can't buy the concept that the stallion approvals are so wrought with politics... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You should. And at the 100 day it was on discount.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I agree. In-hand showing is not on the same level at performance or the 100 Day test. It IS an independent evaluation of conformation and gaits. I choose to go the slower route, and prove my stallion by what he produces.

I called the ISR when Nevada was young to ask about having him inspected. I specifically wanted to ask if it would be held against him because he is a smaller, lighter bodied stallion. They said they would have someone get back to me with information about inspecting him, etc. I never heard another word - no call, so I didn't enter him in the inspection. The night before, at 9PM I get a call from Hilltop. "Are you coming? We are holding the jumping lane schooling for him?" Um, no, no one has ever contacted me to say I could enter him, or answer my question. They get someone on the phone, who tells me that I can still come. So, since I am 3 hours away, and he is not ready at all, I told them I would just have to haul up in the morning. I pull him in from the paddock, bathe, clip, braid, clean tack, collect equipment, hook up, and sleep for about 2 hours. I load and haul thru 2 rush hour beltways, and arrive about 8:30 AM Who do you think was scheduled to be first to go? OK, so I argue to get a later slot. The handler they agreed to provide for me was free to begin to work with him 5 minutes before he took him in the ring. I was dissappointed to see that one of the Inspectors is someone that had judged Nevada in a large class at Lexington as a 2 year old. He told my then handler Robin Koenig, "I just don't know what to do with this one. He is much better than anything else in the class. I am going to go ahead and give him the class, but I will really kill him next year as a 3 year old for his "immaturity". (Luckily the Dutch judge didn't feel the same the next year at Devon, when he placed him 7th out of 30 3 year olds - right behind 6 Iron Spring and Hilltop colts) So, when Nevada does his best trot, ALL 3 Inspectors were turned away, talking amoungst themselves - I have it on video. They were not even bothering to watch him. Politics?

I use the stallions that have come thru the process, because that is all that there is that have been bred for the sporthorse disciplines. The rest were gelded, so who knows.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have to breed for performance and rideability to sell them - many of which we train. The major market in this country is Amateurs so temperament and rideability are key <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are the scores that I have seen the biggest problems with. There are many horses that have been licensed with high scores that are only that rideable for the German professionals at the testing. Those are the horses that unless you have actually visited, or have other knowledge of how they really are, you will breed to for your amateur horse. I can't afford to make that mistake. I need to sell my horses for Amateur riders.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There may be unapproved stallions that are getting lots of breedings. So what. They are usually getting a lower quality of mare. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahhh but we are not - Of course I only speak for MY unapproved stallion. I am getting super mares - Champion mares for Hunters, Advanced and Intermediate Level Event mares, including the 5th place Mare of the Year, nice Dressage mares including the "special mare of their dreams", owned by "R" Dressage Judges. I have also gotten the 2 best mares of a previous rider for the 100 day test. But, HEY if you think I can get the quality youngsters that I have by the dozen on Nevada's web page out of "lower quality mares" that would speak even better for my boy http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What works for you and your program doesn't have to work for everyone. You choose to follow the Inspection/100 Day test. I don't believe in it, so I don't. There are other ways to produce nice high quality horses. Again, it is a big world out there, with lots of choices - enough for everyone.

[benno]

Over the course of 97 days/27 days, the stallions are being evaluated and trained/prepared for a very rigorous final 3 days where 8 internationally respected experts provide their insight into each stallion's strengths and weaknesses. Where else can a stallion owner have such a comprehensive evaluation by so many experts and against such a broad range of other stallions? It is an expensive, time-consuming, risky endeavor for the owner. It is a hard challenge for the stallions. It is one more piece of the puzzle of whether a stallion will meet a breeder's goals.

I am a turn-out fanatic. I am a control-over-every-aspect-of-my-ponies'-care freak. I worried every day Hero was at the test. But during those final 3 days, I saw the love and pride of the trainers when they brought "their" horses/ponies before the judges and guest riders, the happiness of presenting them well, the intimate whispers and pats for their "boy", the stable managers working tirelessly with big bags of treats for the horses and missed lunches for themselves. And when I got Hero home after 10 hours on a horse van, he dropped and rolled and dropped and rolled repeatedly to the point I worried about a colic. Then he stood up, shook himself off, sighed, and started eating some hay. The next day I turned him out and he just stood there and wanted his next carrot, then casually walked up to a poop pile, contributed his fair share, and then went walking and sniffing around. Today, he walked quietly out and was waiting for me to bring him in. He worked under saddle quietly and without complaint. He's settled right back at home. He's stiff and I will have my vet check on his physical well-being. But his mental well-being is far beyond what I ever expected and for that I am deeply grateful.

[showjumpers66]

My hat is off to all the stallion owners. It is such a long, grueling, EXPENSIVE process and there are never any guarantees. I can not even imagine the heartbreak of failing at the 100 day test after making it this far.

As a mare owner, the ONLY time I consider 100 day test scores is when the stallion has no performance or produce record. It just is not that important to me when choosing a stallion. I believe that 100 day test itself is important, just not the end all. It is difficult to campaign a stallion while managing his busy breeding career. Career breeding stallions need the test to prove their merit until their progeny can do it for them. Without having completed the test when younger, stallions who are injured and unable to complete their performance requirements would never be able to fulfill their licensing requirements.

As a mare owner, I would much rather see performance or progeny records. This is what helps sell foals and not 100 day test scores.

[ise@ssl]

Well WinDayDan - I wish I could have been there all 100 Days to watch the training, etc. but unfortunately I have 22 horses here! Lucky you that you were there to be able to make such observations.

As Benno said 8 international professionals were involved in the final testing scores besides the input from the test riders (who were all from Germany and I'm sure didn't know any owners prior to arrive). To think they all had some conspiracy to affect the numbers clearly shows a lack of understanding of the process. When you look at the final scores - there certainly weren't all identical stallions or identical pedigrees, sizes, shapes, colors, at the top. So scratching my head - I'm trying to understand the "politics". Some of the stallions were owned by people who had sent stallions through before, some by first times, some by big farms, some by small farms.

I suppose they could have all the "experts" in the bleachers come in and test ride each horse - but I'm sure that would add another 30 days to the testing and we'd probably need some paramedics on site. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[talloaks]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I suppose they could have all the "experts" in the bleachers come in and test ride each horse - but I'm sure that would add another 30 days to the testing and we'd probably need some paramedics on site. Wink <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Wonderful ILona!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Tiki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have also seen Dutch Ster mares only be placed in the Oldenburg mare book - NOT main mare book, so paperwork (and obviously quality - at least according to the Dutch) is not a guarantee of any book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think that you're forgetting that different breed registries have different goals for type, conformation and movement. They are all looking for good sport horses, but they have different ideas of what the phenotype of a good sport horse should look like.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't have faith in the inspection process. I came to this decision due to what I have seen at many inspections, and many breeds. It is very political. I have seen fully licensed stallions (in Europe) be imported and go thru the performance route thru Grand Prix, and still not get their approval. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't get this. If they are already fully licensed/approved in Europe, what they are looking at, again, is conformation, type and movement. The Holsteiners, for example, seem to like more and higher knee action. The Hannos in general seem to like a heavier type. If that's politics, well, I guess they're entitled to like one type over another. Can you actually name a stallion who was FULLY APPROVED in Europe who was not accepted by ANY registry in the US???? I'm sure you can name one registry who didn't approve a particular stallion, but I wouldn't expect them to be approved across the board, unless they were of a type, somewhere in the middle for type and conformation, that was acceptable to all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Most of us have versions of both in their breeding barn. (THIS mare is my best mare, she only gets bred to fancy-pants stallions... THIS mare is just a good girl and gets the guy down the street) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, I think I'd breed the 'good girl' to the best possible match for her, rather than the guy down the street who happens to have balls, to get the best possible horse I could out of her, rather than breeding more walking Alpo. If she's really not that good, she shouldn't be bred at all.

[talloaks]

It is tiring to hear of arguments against the stallion testing and approval. We need approved stallions to have registered foals. Without fully registered offspring we only end up with GRADE HORSES and that is something we should try to avoid. Just think where the Arabians and TBs would be today if they hadn't been registered!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[ise@ssl]

Tiki - I'd actually take the comment "this girl is just a good girl and she gets bred to the guy up the street" a bit further. WHY? Good God - we see so many horses going to slaughter now and all them are not broken down old nags.

For sporthorse breeding we should let that "good girl" just be a riding horse. O&gt;K&gt; maybe give her a shot to a prepotent top stallion to see if she'll just be an incubator or if she has pedigree - if it will breed through.

We shouldn't end up being equine puppy mills.

[jackie]

So what critera did they apply to hire the "international" jumper guest riders?

[ise@ssl]

One rider was from the Irish Jumping Team and the other rider was an "A" circuit Hunter/Jumper rider who is a BHSI.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I suppose they could have all the "experts" in the bleachers come in and test ride each horse <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it would be a good idea to have a couple of Amateur riders included in the test ride.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Without fully registered offspring we only end up with GRADE HORSES and that is something we should try to avoid. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When Nevada's 1st colt placed 3rd out of 38 entries at Dressage at Devon beating 5 by Riverman, 2 by Contucci, 2 by Idocus, in addition to colts by Wolkenstein II, Atlanta Olympic Peron, & Davingport - I'm thinking that there were several farms that were wishing I had avoided breeding that "Grade horse" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. And the next year, when another of his colts did it again, the Dutch Warmblood Registry was quick to call him their own, by listing him in their newsletter as a Dutch horse that was very successful at Devon - in spite of only being a CP horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just think where the Arabians and TBs would be today if they hadn't been registered!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just think of where they would be if they had all had to go thru the 100 Day Testing. We may have lost some very good producing stallions.

Europe's breeding goals are more and more to produce that world class "hot, showey" horse. They have that explosive breathtaking trot, that many of the Europen experts have expressed MUCH concern about all of the breeders breeding for.

We also have a huge group of Hunter riders and amateur Dressage riders looking to ride the warmbloods and crosses because they get athletic ability, while in a quieter, package. That is just not what the modern warmblood is going to be, and the canters that are SO important are losing ground.

[jackie]

just wondering - had past dealings with the irish rider....they were not good

[ise@ssl]

The jumper riders were both great and completey different styles - what personal dealing means - it didn't enter in to this. We could see of the horse was ridden to the fences in a jumper style how they did and also with the other rider if the could take a longer rein, not fall on the forehand and get the distances with a nice rhythm.

Fairview - have you been to Europe. The "auction trots" are just that - for the Auctions. You seem to be happy with your breeding program, stallion and his progeny - why do you find it necessary to badmouth the rest of the sporthorse world as though it's ALL WRONG. You've found you market - but there are other markets out there and most people do want RIDING horses - at least that's our experience. I've actually spent a great deal of time a few years ago tracking the top winners at DAD on the line and if they ever did show up in the under saddle classes years later - very very few. So there you go!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have not been to Europe, but I have been reading articles written by the leading breeding experts in Germany, and that was what THEY stated.

I am not badmouthing the rest of the sporthorse world. I have repeatedly stated that there are lots of ways to make a good sporthorse, and that each person had to do what works for their program. You are the one that has insisted that my way is not a valid way. I have been simply defending my view that the Inspection/100 Day test does not give me confidence in the results as being gospel. You obviously don't like that I have a different opinion, and am willing to defend my point of view.

BTW, several years ago, I was in a very lonely position of arguing that breeding "all arounders", and including jumper blood in our breeding for Dressage horses was a better way to do things. MANY people on these forums were slamming me and saying that breeding like that would only get me a horse that was mediocre at everything. hmmm

now that turnaround is not likely to happen in the Inspection/100 day test process as it is their whole base.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You've found you market - but there are other markets out there and most people do want RIDING horses - at least that's our experience. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not badmouthing me and my program? Who said we are not producing riding horses. Our youngsters are young, but Nevada's very first to be shown undersaddle (3 years old) won his first Dressage test with a 69%. He also was Reserve Champion at Swan Lake in his Hunter show - over fences, & undersaddle. He also placed 6th in the Materiale class at Devon. His trainer raves about his rideability, and talent. I call that a riding horse.

[Jasmine]

FHC, Nevada is beautiful. The pesky papers thing is what has kept me from being interested in him before. It has just been my experience that horses (especially BEFORE they are started under saddle) sell better with full papers. With the market what it is right now, I prefer to hedge my bets and make sure that my foals are all elligible for full papers.

Just because Nevada didn't go through the 100 day test, or hasn't completed the sport requirements, that doesn't make him a bad horse. The stallions that do those things, though, shouldn't have their acheivements made less. The 100 day test is a strenuous and difficult process for a young stallion. I do look at how they do in the testing, and what their scores were (or how they fulfilled the sport requirements) when I am considering a "date" for my girl. It is a useful tool for mare owners. Not the only one, obviously, but a useful one.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Thank-you Jasmine. I was actually surprised to find that when I originally bred to only licensed stallions (100 Day Test winners, Devon Winners, etc) I had the youngsters for longer than I do with breeding to my own. My profit margin is also higher, even if I exclude that I don't have to pay a stud fee. I think the foals being in the 5000. to 5500. price range is just more tempting to a larger number of people.

The 100 days test is definitely useful for a lot of breeders. And as I stated, my #1 reason for not being willing to send a stallion, is lack of turnout. I DO like my boys at home.

[ise@ssl]

No one is saying horses that don't pass are bad - what those of us who went and do follow the results and use them for our breeding programs are saying is - it's one of many tools we use for our breeding programs. I won't breed to un-approved stallions - that's my program. I've culled my mares over the years and my ponies are all registered as well. That's what I want to offer.

But for me - it would be hypocritical to say - oh that warmblood program with stallions having to complete licensing inspections and either performance or testing is so riddled with politics and prejudice, etc. etc. BUT - I'm going to count on the pedigree of my stallion WHICH resulted from that process to build my program. Why not just use a grade stallion that's handsome and has good conformation? If the pedigree (which in the case of the warmbloods)which was built on a system is all flawed - why use it to market a stallion. Let his looks and scores on the line be his selling points. Why advertise and trade on the pedigrees (which include many photos with no credits)? Why note State's Premium - isn't the testing of the mares as bad as the testing of the stallions? I just don't get it.

Fairview - your words "All of this tells me it does NOT work." But isn't it true that it WORKED to produce the two stallions you now have?

And most of the mare owners I know who have been breeding for a long time (this spring will be my 18th year) do not travel to see the stallions. That's a sweeping comment you made that most mare owners go to look at the stallions in person - based on what survey? How many states are you shipping to Fairview?? Did all of those people visit your farm??

And to people who once again want to bash the test - well most of us there looked these horses over up close and personal. We are in the business long enough to know what a horse will look like or act like if it hasn't had good care during a long performance test like this one. I've walked into many boarding stables that have many horses that are barely worked that have nicks, scratches, swelling and bad habits.

The testing is there to provide information for those who breed through Federation registries -those who don't amaze me with their interest or negativity. If you don't play - why bother to challenge the rules over and over and over again.

[talloaks]

FHC, I just noticed that you had some of your horses/foals advertised online under the Hanoverian breed!!! Why would you do that when they are not Hanoverians??? Mind you I didn't take the time to look under AWS. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

My breeding program is based on a Dutch stallion that I believe IS part of a political issue to do with Gelderlanders. If you have ever done a search on Gelderlanders, you will get quite an "earfull" of politics. What may have worked in the past, doesn't mean it is working today. My older type Hanoverian would no more be licensed to day than flying in the air. His type is just not going to be replaced.

I prefer to base my program on older type lines, that are being lost from todays modern type warmblood. I want to preserve those brains.

I have some of my foals listed as Hanoverians because they have Hanoverian Certificates of Peidgrees, and are eligible to compete as Hanoverians. I also have youngsters Registered Dutch. I am crossing older Dutch and Hanoverian lines.

[Reg Corkum]

The photos are nearly ready!!! I hope to make tomorrow afternoons mail or Saturday morning at the latest!!!
...so for those of you who are waiting patiently I am working very hard on it. I am sure there are faster ways of doing what I do, but with every image getting personal attention, it takes a while.

There are some lovely images of all the horses. I hope they will be enjoyed.

[helen elizabeth]

When the actual directors of the 100 day test say to someone, "You can not ride, you trained your horse wrong," who is a PROFESSIONAL having brought an insane amount of horses through the paces to these people's standards on a continuous basis, often disproving them when they say that so-and-so will not make it to a four foot/grand prix jumper, and not passing every single stallion this person brought with them to this test due to them not appreciating the directors allowing their stallion being completely TRASHED the testing before, and voicing it so and giving constructive critism to IMPROVE the obviously flawed/outdated program and being called rediculous for doing so, well that, my dear, is politics.
When any foal out of a grade mare is not allowed to get higher than overall 7.9 in Old NA out of respect for the fully papered foals, even though this foal is obviously better quality, that, my dear, is politics.
When stallions do not get approved due to the simple fact that they were either imported very young or born in America, but had they been in Europe they would have, that, my dear is politics.
When a director of the 100 day test says "It is a WONDERFUL training program, send your stallions," but then later says, "We have twenty-eight stallions (or however many they allow) there is too many to have a training program," however, disproven as there are actual courses being taught in germany/europe that shows how a training program can be applied to thirty something horses, that, my dear, is politics.
When any attempt of constructive critism is given about the 100 day test is shot down, that my dear, is politics.
I could go on, but I think you get my point.

shortys aka WinDayDän

[Reg Corkum]

I posted a few candids and hope they will be seen.

[talloaks]

Sounds like it "could be" sour grapes!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Tiki]

Well, "My Dear" I've had, and I've seen a number of, foals out of grade mares get Premium. Methinks I smell a troll!

[KimPeterson]

How many pages are you guys on now?? I just looked at my email inbox and WHOA you have been busy today http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have to stop getting the email notifications http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So everyone - hows the weather - its been pretty nice in Jersey this week. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

The weather is lovely. Maybe it's time for chocolate http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Sonesta]

removed til I figure best how to reply to the nonsense of shortys

[Cosette]

Shortys - I think you might be wise to take a step back and look at the person filling your head with this nonsense. If you were there yourself your opinions may hold a little more value. As it is, your rant sounds like 2nd hand sour grapes with very little factual information.

[LongLeaf]

Hey you guys...PLEASE PLAY NICE! We're gonna get in trouble again! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Cosette]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be unkind, just honest.

[Erin]

That sticky is up at the top of the forum for a reason. My, memories are short around here...

Play nice. If you want to be snarky and snide, go find a middle school lunchroom to hang out in.

[showjumpers66]

Thanks, Reg! Anymore photos???

[ise@ssl]

woooooooooo hooooooooo Reg - fun photos.

One thing is still a fact. The videos of the 100 Day will be available for everyone to buy - or even have a party and share the footage with friends. The "devil is in the details" and the details on some will be right there in living color.

Also "heresay" is just that....if you didn't hear it with your OWN EARS - well we've all played "whisper down the lane" - and there's always going to be editing in the trasmission. Ditto to your remarks Cosette.

Great weather here in NJ as well - a bit balmy - but of course with winter coats coming on and balmy weather the horses are giving themselves that great full body mud rub!!

[Tiki]

Hey Reg - LOVE the pooch!!

[KimPeterson]

All my guys are shades of mud http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I know what you mean Ilona - I think it is even going to rain this Sat. so they will be looking really great on Sun...

Whenever the video is available please put me on the list (if there is one) for purchase. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Have a great day everyone - I'm off the clean stalls and ride...

[helen elizabeth]

I do not blame your guys for feeling the way you do, or saying the things your say. If I were in the same position, I would more than likely say the same things. However, I have seen that stallion who still has not recovered completely from his experience at the hundred day, and I was at the actual inspection that the grade colt did not make premium and did talk to the inspector off the record about it afterwards. I have talked to the professional that was told that they could not ride, I have seen the horses they have brought along. Though I was not at the test it does not mean my words hold no value when I have a reliable source. You are allowed to say to me whatever you want. But in all fairness, ask the people who ran it, ask them about how long they worked the stallions a day, ask the people who took their horses. ASK! If no one says anything, nothing is going to happen!
Alright, I am done, I accomplished what I set out to do and I am done.

[Tiki]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[inca]

Well, my filly by Ideal out of a "grade" mare with no papers received an 8.5 at her foal inspection. So, saying they won't give those scores to "grade" foals is absolutely not true!

And several stallion owners have posted on here that their stallions are back home and doing just great! That is about as "straight from the horse's mouth" as you can get! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Faiths CremelloWB]

To lighten up the mood here and bring some smiles... Here is a photo of my boy resting before his trip home...

[Sonesta]

TOO CUTE, April!

[jumpgirl]

Wow. This thread is something.

I have a different point of view, if any of you are interested. I have bred only a few foals. I have been around warmblood breeding, however for many many many years. I have even been to some stallion shows in europe.

But, here is where I differ, my main thing is training and showing mostly bringing babies along. I have several things to point out:

1. As a competitor, I could care less about which registry a horse belongs to. The main thing is talent ON DEMAND in the show ring which does not equal trotting around a triangle.

2. Someone mentioned Cathalido jumping so well and how he just "hung" over those big oxers. Well "hanging" over the top of a jump is the kiss of death for a jumper. Hunters, yes. Jumpers, no, no no! Airtime takes up too much time. They need to skim over the jumps and get back to galloping forward.

3. I can't imagine someone sending a horse to the 100 day test with 45 days under saddle. What does the test cost - $10,000+? And you made that decision to send him because the director told you it was ok??? You didn't talk to any other stallion owner who had already been through? You didn't ask any more questions? Basic research on the internet would have told you that 45 days is not ok. Do you routinely spend $10,000 on other things without finding out SOME facts???

4. As an objective "show horse" person vs. breeder, I looked at photos of most of the stallions and think that they all fell out to where they should be. The bottem ones looked like hunters which is not what the test is for.

5. As far as turnout. Do you die-hard turn out people never take your horses on the show circuit? I love turnout too - my babies are out 24/7. But a show horse is worked hard and spends most of their time at or on the road to "A" level shows 2 weeks to many weeks-Florida- at a time with little to no turnout. Your stallions with turn out 8 hours a day apparently are not meant to ever show. As someone buying a baby show prospect by them, I'd say "hmmm."

6. Fairview, I've seen your stallion in person and in photos. I can see why he is breeding hunters and probably good ones but I don't see him as a jumper sire or dressage sire unless you breed an old fashioned mare to him. Most Americans have more than enough light influence and need a bigger stallion. That is why he wasn't approved. Period.

7. Yes, there are politics. I've heard inspectors say all kinds of things. I know some SO's have effectively "blocked" stallions being presented from being approved because it might compete too much with their own. Show me any kind of industry that doesn't have a good dose of that kind of stuff. Ever watch The Apprentice on TV?

8. News Flash. Many "professional" "riders" can't ride worth beans.


9. Young horses that have not been in training usually have good attitudes, love people, and like to get out and "play". Most young horses, when first asked to REALLY work, like at a 100 day test, training barn, etc, often decide, "hey! whats going on?" and get a bit sour because it is work and not play anymore. They generally get through it and decide it is ok afterall but it takes some time of regular work. The ones that don't are tagged with low "rideability" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

10. As a show rider, I must tell you that show people and trainers get very aggrevated with the breeders attitudes about their horses. We want to see horses well started at 3, jumping small fences at 4 and getting their lead changes at 4. By 5, they need to have some serious show miles with some high placings. We don't really care that they jumped out of their paddock as a yearling as a testiment to their performance record.

11. If you are at a breeding inpsection - not performance-oriented - why would a foal out of a grade mare get the same or better scores than one out of a premium mare? I think a foal out of a grade mare should get lower scores because it is about breeding not performance, right? You don't know what that grade mare's foal will breed like if the stock is grade and unapproved and isn't the name of the game for warmblood breeders to "stack the dice" in favor of consistently producing a certain type? If that bothers you, go the performance route not the breeding route. There are many unapproved stallions who compete very successfully but you don't have the measurement of their lineage to get a clearer idea of what he breeds like. Otherwise, just approve everything that can compete at a certain level and everything that can't is dismissed regardless of conformation, lineage, etc.

Ok, I'm done.

[A. Roose]

Yeouch, Jumpgirl. But I could not have said it better myself -- even assuming I were as brave. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[merda]

As A Roose said, yeouch...but you go girl! Tell it like it really is. I think breeders need to come to the real world - the show ring. As a breeder and competitor, I couldn't agree with you more....

[KimPeterson]

Not touching any of the other post but here is a response to one point that was made http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I think a lot of the breeders have already sold their babies by the time they are 4yr olds or 5yr olds showing ect.. they are with trainers or in their next homes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would venture to guess MOST of the time once you are shopping for already going undersaddle horses you aren't shopping at the stallion owners barn, but at a trainers facility, so issues with young horses training should be directed towards trainers. And remember the more training probably the higher the cost of that 5yr.

When you sell an unbroke youngster as most breeders do - all you have to go on is movement and free jumping. So that is why you will see so many photos of young horses on the triangle or remarks about jumping when loose.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I agree, Nevada is a lighter bodied, smaller stallion. However, as a "breeding horse", he adds substance (body and leg), and size (usually 2 to 7 inches) to the mares. I did inquire to see if it would be held against him, and was told, "No". I would have just preferred it if they just told me, rather than make me pay hundreds of dollars.

At his Belgian Inspection, we actually presented 2 of his foals - one out of a 15.2h Warmblood cross mare, and one out of a 16.1h TB. Those foals were June 2, and July 3 birthdays, at an August Inspection. They were the biggest, foals, and had more substance than the others that were ALL older. The inspectors are not looking at what they produce.

Attaching a photo of a yearling (14 months and 1 week), out of a 16.1, medium type warmblood/tb cross mare. This colt was not our biggest (or heaviest) one of the year. The bigger (and heavier) one was out of a 15.2h 1/2 Dutch mare. I think he will be quite useful in Dressage.

[Fairview Horse Center]

My horses would cope with being locked up, I just choose to not do that to them. A Nevada colt in 2002, had a fracture. He was in his stall for about 2 months. No one could believe how good he was. The vets were repeatedly xraying him, and the farrier was doing lots of trims because it was in the growth plate, and we wanted to make sure his angles stayed right. He was so quiet and well behaved thru it all. He never stall walked, or developed ANY habits. He was still entire as well, and never got mouthy. We even had to limit his hay, because he was such a big growing colt, we didn't want to add weight to a joint fracture.

To me, the ones that are the best about being locked up, my heart goes out to MORE because of how good they are being, inspite of what we are putting them thru.

And the good news, is he was just fine - 100%.

[showjumpers66]

Jumpgirl, I don't have a problem with anything you said, but do disagree with a couple of things. I don't know if anyone saw Conejo that first year he showed Grand Prix as a 5 year old. He was jumping out of his skin clear over the tops of the standards. This was an extremely talented young horse that will never be scoped out. He lost jump offs due to time faults, but has grown past that. I think Cathalido is another one who will not be scoped out. It takes time and experience for them to learn not to waste their energy. That takes miles under saddle. I would rather see this than a green horses that skims over the jumps who may eventually be scoped out or does not have that extra little bit when you miss a distance. I am very excited about Cathalido and I hoping that he will go on to have a fantastic Grand Prix career. There is absolutely nothing huntery about this stallion.

It just seems to me that the horses that excel at the 100 day test have miles. This makes total sense, but in some respects I believe that the test was intended for stallions without as many miles since it is intended for 3 and 4 year olds.

I do feel that we are slow in the US putting miles on our young horses. But, on the flip side everyone worries so much about causing harm to the growing limbs of their young horses. I don't think that your expectations of the training levels are unreasonable. I don't know what the solution is. Maybe raising the entry age for the test to 4 years and age penalties starting at 6 years which increases with age. I believe that there may be an age limit on the test. 7?

[risingstarfarm]

I just wanted to put in my $0.02 in regards to the "more huntery" type stallions. Let's all remember that here in the USA, hunters are the biggest piece of the market. Breeders NEED to breed horses that will excel in the hunter ring. The 100dt isn't designed to evaluate hunter type horses - so, we as breeders need to evaluate 100dt scores in light of what it does and does not tell us about a particular stallion.

By the way, I am planning to breed one of my mares to Cathalido in 2005 - and I am hoping for a jumper, because that boy can JUMP!

[jumpgirl]

showjumper66, I sincerely hope that Cathalido does go on to do very well. But as you said, even Conejo lost due to too much time in the air. Yes, he grew out of it. Will all horses who hang in the air eventually grow out of it? No. I hope yours does, but we can only judge what we see now. If he has close relatives that have the same jump style, who started out with a high slow jump and developed better later, I'd say there is a good chance. One would have to study the bloodlines and history to tell.

Fairview, I'd say the photo of your colt is a very NICE hunter prospect. Congratulations. There is a huge market for hunter sires that consistently stamp their foals.

I know the market here is primarily hunter riders but we are talking EUROPEAN type warmbloods that rose to fame because their abilities in the jumper ring & dressage. The whole system is planned around producing those horses, not hunters. Personaly, I was attracted to the system because of the superior international calibre horses. I believe the system is somewhat special because it does NOT cater to the everyday hunter market that has done quite well here on its own, thank you very much. I'd HATE to see it swallowed up by the hunter market. Maybe someone should start a Hunter Sporthorse Registry which takes TBs and hunter type warmbloods, evaluates them for that lofty type jump and stamps their foals with the hunter way of going.

The 100 day test does however need some tweaking if it is only going to be held every 2 years and is so expensive and limited in the numbers that can attend. Maybe the breed registries can come up with a better criteria on how they want their stallions with pending approval to complete their final performance requirments. Clear cut paths for those colts designated as a stallion prospect should be a main topic for descussion within the registries. Registries officials should take responsibility to see that those hand-picked stallions are handwalked through to completion for the good of registry, if indeed it is a shame to lose a potential top stallion for lack of a good plan.

[Fairview Horse Center]

If you saw the colt move, you would know he was a Dressage prospect, and a very nice one.

[Fairview Horse Center]

When we crossed Nevada with a Medium type Hanoverian mare, we got a colt - photo attached. The judges at Dressage at Devon said he was a very nice type, liked his conformation, but a "bit heavy". He is actually one of the lightest foals we have had, including out of TB mares.

The modern warmblood is very light. One of our reasons for keeping Nevada a stallion, is because he produces heavier than the more modern type.

[showjumpers66]

I WISH Cathalido was mine! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He is just a young stallion that I am quite impressed with. I am hoping that his son, Calixo, will follow in his footsteps, though. I don't know if you are familiar with Cathalido's pedigree, but he is by Calido I (Cantus/Coriander/Roman) and out of a Carthago/Lord/Sacramento Song xx mare. His dam is a full sister to the Grand Prix winner, Carlot. Her dam produced the 3 Grand Prix winners Campari, Carissimo, and Carlot. Calido I has already sired 15 approved stallions. Calido I is by Cantus who sired the Silver medalist, Calvaro. Cantus is by the successful Grand Prix jumper, Caletto I. His damsire, Carthago, is a two time Olympic medalist. I think blood will tell!

Young Calido I (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/youngcalido.jpg)

Mature Calido I (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/calidoI.jpg)

Cantus (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/cantus.jpg)

Carthago (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/carthago.jpg)

Caletto I (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/calettoI.jpg)

Calixo photo (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/calixo3m2.jpg)

Calixo video (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/calixo1mpg.mpg)

I do feel that many trainers expect breeders to breed perfection and have unrealistic expectations of young horses. No horse is perfect, but I promise to try harder to produce perfection! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What makes a good competition horse is not always what makes a good producer. Rather than breeding to the top competitor, I like to breed to the stallion who is related to many top competitors.

[showjumpers66]

risingstar, I agree that there is a large market for the hunters. I think that there is a frame of mind that hunters are horses that were cast offs ... horses that were not nice enough for upper level jumpers or dressage. Hunters are not second rate sporthorses and should be treated as such. I hope that the American warmblood registries continue to grow in regards to the hunters. This year has seen good progress in that direction.

[ise@ssl]

Actually it was Galeno Tyme that had the tremendous hang top - effortlessly BTW and wasted no time into the stride after the fence. Cathalido showed great scope jumping but unfortunately FOR ME - he was NOT ridden up and forward enough under saddle to show his power. He was almost ridden very cautiously and the brilliance I felt he had - just didn't come through in his undersaddle work.

O.K. - I've been breeding now 17 years as I stated - YOU CANNOT give the credit for the size of a foal to the SIRE completely. Experienced breeders know you MUST look one and two generations back to see the size and type. We have a small TB mare 15.3H, very typey, she threw 6 great foals by 5 stallions all ranging from 16.2-17H. All but the filly who ended up the same as the dam - finished 16.3 some over. BUT this mare's SIRE was a very big distance running TB. We had a colt by the same TB stallion out of a rangy TB mare and he could have passed for a WB anyday and in fact was thought to be at many 3 day events.

So to just say oh that stallion puts size on them - well if you are breeding to a purebred pony - maybe you can say that but many WB mares and TB mares that are not big have height and substance in their pedigrees.

As far as how long horses are worked everday. Well EXPERT TRAINERS from Europe have told us over and over again - that younger hosrses 3-4 - max time they ride them is aboug 25 to 30 minutes in work in each session. Of course there's a warm up and cool down. We've followed that. For the galloping work on our horses that were in 3 Day it would vary depending on weather and footing conditions for the gallop work. For jumping - am I the only person who has been taught it's not how many jumps you jump with the quality of the jumping???

There were some horses who were tired at the final testing - but THAT'S WHAT THE FINAL TESTING IS ALL ABOUT!! Asking for the max in all disciplines after the work through the test which is SCORED SEPARATELY.

And BTW - there were some horses that were tired galloping off the cross country course and it showed in the gallop lap. But one that clearly had very little left on the gallopp lap had been LUNGED for a very long time by the trainer prior to heading out on the course. I could see if from the announcing tower I was in and kept thinking I hope he doesn't run out of gas - HE DID!!

Also - I tip my hat to professional riders but 100 Day or even 30 day test riding is not the same as SHOWING. There's more to ask of the rider and they should be well trained in all three disciplines, have a bold attitude about presenting the horse, and pretty much try to show that horse off the entire time they are in the ring before the judges. This is the STALLION'S moment.

I look forward to watching the tapes in January when we have one of those lousy icy storms and there's not much we can do outside!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpgirl:

10. As a show rider, I must tell you that show people and trainers get very aggrevated with the breeders attitudes about their horses. We want to see horses well started at 3, jumping small fences at 4 and getting their lead changes at 4. By 5, they need to have some serious show miles with some high placings. We don't really care that they jumped out of their paddock as a yearling as a testiment to their performance record.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frankly, as a breeder, I get very aggrevated at at show people and trainers who have this attitude. If there is one thing show people don't get in this country is "young horses". IME young warmbloods do not do well in most "show" barns . They simply don't get the proper foundational training they need to develop properly - which leads to all sorts of problems, from attitude to lameness issues.

Yes, there are exceptions. Some show barns do a very nice job starting youngsters properly and slowly enough for them to mature to their full potential. I wish I saw that more than I do.

But the whole concept of being "done" with training at 5 years old is just sad to me, and very counter productive. Top notch dressage, eventing and jumper folks all know that 5 is still a baby with their whole lives ahead of them. The training and conditioning is only just begun. That these horse will hit their peaks between 8 and 15 or 16. Horses showing heavily at 5 are often used up by the time they should be hitting their peak performance years. And people wonder why it is so hard to find schoolmasters in this country.

The 100DT will continue to evolve, here and in Europe, esp. as it relates to determining future talent while preserving it. More and more classes for young horses (which are designed to show age appropriate training and development) are being held.

SCFarm

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Experienced breeders know you MUST look one and two generations back to see the size and type. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank-you! Nevada does have a 16.3, heavier sire, and a 16.2 old type Dutch stallion as his mother's sire. Those genes come thru even though he did not get the size. They do judge what they see in the horse, but we are taking the "slower route", and showing what he produces.

[talloaks]

ILona just hope when you have that ice storm and plan on watching the video that you have electricity!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Sonesta]

ise@ssl, I think you need to make it plain that the trainer that was lunging the horse so long before cross country was one of the 30 day riders (or rather the 30 trainer) and NOT one of the 100 day test riders. And, yes, I saw that, too, and was wondering how it would affect him. He was dead tired during the cross country and you could hear him huffing as he went. Oh, well. We all have to live and learn from experience. I'm sure that training team will do things much better next time. They are good folks.

Remember, this was a first time experience as a test rider for the rider and I, too, would have been a bit overwhelmed. Leanne had an incredible job to do and all we can do is "arm-chair quarterback" in hind sight. Not at all fair to her.

As for the 30 day test overall. No matter how good was my trainer and rider, I just don't think I'd chance it. I'd go the 100 day route to make certain that my stallion was brought along exactly like the others and with a rider that has done this many times before -- unless, of course, Ken Borden wants to take on my stallion. By this time, he has now as much or more experience in the testing as most of the German riders!

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Yeah, watching Ken working with his 3 stallions was a lot of fun. It looked like a lot of work but he seemed to really enjoy it all the way until the last day. I would go again, if he had horses in it, as he was a pleasure to watch is all the events...

Really got a kick out of his comment to the spectators about taking it slower this time through the cross country phase, as he galloped in-front of us all...

[Sonesta]

oh, but Faiths, you should have SEEN Ken on cross country in 2002. He was a blue streak. On the video I made, you can hear me saying "Slow DOWN, Ken. For god's sake, slow down!" It was so scary!

[ise@ssl]

Bernie - I have a generator http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif for those ice storms - learned the hard way - that even in this "rural" areas of NJ - we are DEAD last to get our power back on!!

Also it's probably fortunate for Ken that he lives in the region to be able to spend the 30 days there. He did a great job!! even with that "unanticipated dismount http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif" I have mixed feelings about the 30 day testing. If I opted for it I'd probably send the horse to the rider/trainer several months in advance or already have them with that person. Also I'd probably want someone who really does understand the process - and unfortunately in this country with NO bereiter program that's a challenge. Perhaps if there were several stallion owners they could "pool" their money and sponsor another rider to come from Europe for a couple of months and for the testing. Just an idea.

[Duffy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faiths CremelloWB:
To lighten up the mood here and bring some smiles... Here is a photo of my boy resting before his trip home... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TOO CUTE! I also loved the pictures you posted earlier. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[showjumpers66]

Woodridge Farm has a former 100 day test rider training at their farm and she is doing a wonderful job with their young horses.

[Kyzteke]

In response to "jumpergirl's" post:

#1. For those riders without the $$ to buy the mature, fully trained horse, buying a youngster is a viable alternative. If one decides to go that route, pedigree, inspection scores and in-hand show results are valuable resources for determining ability. That, and one's own eyeballs.

#3. I'm sure the SO who sent her horse to the testing with only 45 days u/s now realizes she errored. We all make mistakes in judgement. I know LOTS of people who have spent $10K on horses and got lemons. Most only did it once, but it certainly isn't a rarity. When you are new to something, you tend to listen to "experts," and in the horse world EVERYONE is an expert!

#4 It is true the 100DT doesn't select or evaluate for hunters, which, IMHO is wrong. It should. The test is for AMERICAN stallions and the Hunter market is huge in this country. There should be someone who evalutates the horses for talent in that area. Maybe next time?

#7 & 8: I agree. As long as there are PEOPLE there will be politics. To believe otherwise is not being realistic. In fact, I've often wondered how some of the German stallions would do at our 100DT...horses that commanded exorbidant prices at auction, but couldn't jump to save their lives, yet still won their testing. THAT'S politics! But it's always going to be there...you just hope it's kept at a minimum. As for "professional" riders...once again, I agree. All you have to do to be a professional is say you are one. Big Whoop!

#10 That is why so many show horses are finished and done by age 10. What the heck is the big rush?

#11 The foals are based on conformation and gaits -- NOT pedigree -- when they are evaluated. If it was just breeding you wouldn't need to see the whole horse, just the pedigree. In most registries, the breeding aspect is addresses by the type of "Book" the mare/foal is placed in.

The American 100DT is one tool used to evaluate stallions for breedings. IMHO it needs some tweaking, not just in general, but for the US market. And I think going the performance route with a stallion is ALSO a credible route. And each breeder will have their own set of guidelines to use. In the end it depends what the stallion produces that is the key...and at that point I personally don't care if he has 2 legs, one eye and is 14hh tall! But since most stallions are fairly mature before you finally see if they can produce a large amount of successful performance horses, you have to use SOMETHING to base your breeding decisions on.

It's a process...

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kyzteke:
#4 It is true the 100DT doesn't select or evaluate for hunters, which, IMHO is wrong. It should. The test is for AMERICAN stallions and the Hunter market is huge in this country. There should be someone who evalutates the horses for talent in that area. Maybe next time?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't sit on my hands any longer... I have to agree with you. I knew going into the 30 day test that my stallion was going to be an awesome hunter stallion. I was proud of this. One of the jumper guest riders commented that he is going to be an "awesome hunter" as he handed him back to his rider. That guest rider was the hunter rider.

Removed ... because I am tired of people taking my words out of context and then using them against me in the worst sort of trolling manner. Apparently it is not permissable to have an opinion on this board...if one does, there are a few who will cry "sour grapes"! Nay, not so...

However, my stallion advertisement which is to go into COTH, was part of a group of ads done by Sunshine Sporthorse Assn. I had committed myself to a full page color ad with them. The layout was done way before I left for Ohio. It was already sent in. Therefore, I'm giving you all notice that the ad for my stallion will still say he has a permit with a registry. ...
I could be very sick if I thought about this longer... So, please nobody fuss at me when COTH stallion issue comes out and my stallion ad says he is approved with a registry. It is beyond my control, at this time. Be kind. I will certainly tell anyone who calls that inquired about an unapproved stallion whose foals are eligible for NOTHING in the way of registration papers from this registry. It was inadvertently misleading advertising. Mea Culpa!!!

Oakleigh

[serenityfarm]

I agree about looking past the dams height and into a few generations. I have a mare that is 15.3 only if I have her feet long and shoes on (really 15.2). Her baby is huge and is going to be a tall guy. The sire is 16.3. The dams sire is 17.1 and the grand dam is big too. The baby is very big. not sure why the mare is so short.

[jumpgirl]

Who said anything about a horse being done with training at age 5? I certainly didn't.

GP horses both in Europe and in American are typically starting their GP career at between age 9-10. The horse better being starting to go through the levels by age 5 to attain that. And no, I don't think that is too young. It is breeders who need to get with the market and the show world in general.

And it is a world thing, not just in America. Look at the Bundeschampionate and the lundeschampionate - for 3-4 year olds.

There is a real difference between the average rider who needs to practice their riding by jumping, jumping, jumping and the riders who bring young horses along who DO only ride them 20-30 minutes and jump a few quality jumps to teach the horse a point. You can't compare the two.

BTW, if you are dissatified with show people, just who and what are you breeding horses for? Pretty pasture ornaments or someone's pet? I just can't reconcile breeding these fablulous athletes and then saying they can't go on the show circuit unless they have 8 hours of turnout a day on the show grounds or can't participate in the IJF, the Young Jumpers, or they can't compete in pre-greens until age 7.

Cathalido has some fabulous bloodlines. I didn't see him go and know nothing else about him. My only observation was about this thread where the posters were talking about his "wonderful" hang time over the big jumpers. The point was, that for a jumper, you don't want hang time.

I can't ever see how the 100 day test would evaluate with one scoring system hunters and jumpers. The two disciplines are completely different. Top hunters travel completely different than top jumpers. What works well for a jumper is typically penalized for a hunter - agin the desired hang time for a hunter, the flat movement, etc. How could you look at the scores for a horse, average them in to a total score if a jumper, dressage type received terrible scores for the hunter stuff, and the hunter received terrible scores for the dressage stuff. It is just wrong to have the two together. On a funny note, would the horse have a color score based on what color horse was popular that year in the hunter ring???!

[seal]

There IS a warmblood registry that approves Hunter sires and it just so happens to be located in the US. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifIt is the NA/WPN which is the North American branch of the Dutch Warmblood registry.

[crestline]

I think there are alot of interesting points here...but I have to ask the devil's advocate sort of question...does the 100 day test really go AGAINST the hunters??? I can think of several 100 day test stallions that have succeded in the hunters...heck, George Morris joked about taking his boots out of retirement to ride Palladio in the hunters. Jupiter, Agincourt, Ragtime, Cahuna...and I'm sure we could find a bunch more if we look....I just mention the first few that come to mind.

The testing judges "jump"....not hunter jump vs jumper jump...but jump. Most good hunters have good form and ability over a fence.

The test judges basic gaits...not unheard of for a hunter to have good gaits.

And ridability...also something most hunters need to have.

Don't get me wrong..I'm not saying that the test is geared for the most hunter-y stallions to win...but many have done well...

Oakleigh-
I too believe your boy will be a super hunter...but his scores were so close...maybe he just hadn't truly hit his "peak" for the finals...they can't all mature the same....so unfortunate but I bet we see super things from him in the future! Keep heart.

[LLDM]

jumpgirl - I breed for show people and non show people alike who appreciate a well bred, well raised, well started horse. I don't breed for any people who don't appreciate those things. Fortunately, there are plenty of people who are not so caught up in showing tht it obliterates what is good for their horse.

Good breeding practices have been around for far longer than the current trends in showing. Good breeders think in the long term, and aren't caught up in trends and fads. The show world is changing as we speak. But a good horse is a good horse and that doesn't change much.

Oakleigh - I can't even imagine what you must be going through. No, the 100DT is not able to reward a stallion who's talent is primarily in the hunters. Maybe it is time to address that! I'm thinking a "hunter index" might be a very good idea.

The Test currently has no way to reward this, as there is no such thing in Germany. But considering that Germany and the rest of Europe does manage to sell to the hunter market, they might be interested in such a thing. We could build it over here and they could send us their hunter prospects to test! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

The 100DT is only one aspect of proving a stallion. And by itself it is neither necessary nor sufficient to prove the long term value of a stud. When you have had time to digest all this, I hope you will explore your options with him.

SCFarm

[CenterlineFarm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I frankly was unaware that being a hunter stallion is such a bad, bad thing to the Germans at the testing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oakleigh, again, my hat is off to you - you took the chance, went for it, and lost. I think we all feel badly for you. We have ALL lost at one time or another....

However, being a hunter stallion in Germany is not a bad thing...it is a non-existant thing.
They do not have hunters in Germany.

It would be impossible to evaluate a hunter horse in the 100 day test. The test is supposed to evaluate Dressage or Jumping potential. Not Hunter potential. It would be like evaluating math skill in an english essay. We are talking two different things.

If your stallion is that awesome, just PROMOTE him like crazy in the Hunter show ring. That will get more breedings in the end anyways.

But to get back to the 100 day test, I think I must disagree with the thought that a Hunter stallion will not pass because it is a Hunter type.

I can think of many successfull stallions that are exceptional Hunter stallions. All the Gold and Alla Czar are two perfect examples of horses
that passed the test (not particularly stellar scores, but they did it) and are arguably the country's best hunter producers. Rio Grande is a stallion that is a very sound Hunter producer and he WON the test.

Sorry to sound mean, but perhaps your stallion just ISN'T as nice as you think. Or perhaps he is, but the others were just that much nicer. I don't know at all how the politics work, but perhaps they felt he was not an improvement on his sire and therefore unecessary to enter him into the breeding pool. I have no idea. You have his scores...where did he do badly in?

If you believe in him that much, just campaign him. But don't bash the test because you think
he failed only because he is a 'hunter type'.
I don't think that is the case. Some horses had to fail and yours didn't measure up.

As for Nevada - It is not particularly a good selling feature to say that he does not throw himself. When I breed to a stallion, I want a very clear idea of what I might get. If I bred to him and wanted a smaller/bigger horse or a heavier/lighter horse I may or may not get it. Not good.
He is a cute horse and has thrown some cute babies. But he is not Alla Czar or Rubinstein or Capitol I. He is a nice backyard stallion.
Just let it go at that.

[showjumpers66]

Oakleigh, don't give up him. He looks like a lovely boy!

[showjumpers66]

Wow, centerline, lets not rub them in the dirt! Oakleigh is a reputable breeder and her stallion not passing the test is no reason to call her judgement in question. I really do not feel that Oakleigh has "bashed the test" but just stated her disappointments. I personally wanted to know the pros and cons of the testing as I hope to someday send my Cathalido colt to the test.

Calling Nevada a "backyard stallion" seems to be a little harsh and possibly trolling.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CenterlineFarm:
Sorry to sound mean, but perhaps your stallion just ISN'T as nice as you think. Or perhaps he is, but the others were just that much nicer. I don't know at all how the politics work, but perhaps they felt he was not an improvement on his sire and therefore unecessary to enter him into the breeding pool. I have no idea. You have his scores...where did he do badly in?

If you believe in him that much, just campaign him. But don't bash the test because you think
he failed only because he is a 'hunter type'.
I don't think that is the case. Some horses had to fail and yours didn't measure up.

As for Nevada - It is not particularly a good selling feature to say that he does not throw himself. When I breed to a stallion, I want a very clear idea of what I might get. If I bred to him and wanted a smaller/bigger horse or a heavier/lighter horse I may or may not get it. Not good.
He is a cute horse and has thrown some cute babies. But he is not Alla Czar or Rubinstein or Capitol I. He is a nice backyard stallion.
Just let it go at that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Fairview Horse Center]

CenterlineFarm
He does stamp his babies - with gaits, conformation, athletic ability, and temperament. He is a smaller type stallion, but throws big youngsters. He is also a medium type - refining the heavy, older type, and adding bone to the lighter TB types.

We will see just how much of an impact he has over the years. Hunter and Dressage judges, and High level competitors in several disciplines strongly disagree with you. THEY think they have found something very special.

[CenterlineFarm]

No, I am not trying to 'troll' or whatever it is that you think.

I am merely stating that it is unlikely that a stallion failed merely because he was a 'hunter type'. And further if you read my comments again, I said PERHAPS he isn't as nice. Or PERHAPS the others were just nicer. I do not know, but there has to be some sort of reason. Just throwing your hands in the air and saying...'oh, it is because he is a Hunter and they don't like them' is an evasion.

I also think it would be very easy to be barn blind in situations like this. There is no doubt the horse is lovely and possibly talented. But obviously there was something lacking in him that was not lacking in the other stallions, as painful as that might be. If it was just a 'bad' 100 days for him, then campaign him and try to prove them all wrong.


And as for Nevada. I don't want to turn this into a Nevada-bashing situation. I have never seen the stallion in the flesh. As I said before, he looks like a nice horse with a good pedigree. And obviously he is filling a niche and his owner is happy.

However, if I had a mare that I was breeding with NO papers available for the foals, and had not passed an inspection (and in fact, had failed said inspection), and had no show record whatsoever, (except for in-hand stuff and we all know how much that counts for).... I think people would say I was a backyard breeder. In fact, I think that is the definition of such.

Many breeders go to a LOT of expense, trouble and effort to get their horses inspected, pursue approved breeding goals, find the right match regardless of the stud fee - and some of them are darn high.

It gets a little annoying when someone tries to put their own 'self-approved' program upon the same level.

And it is REALLY annoying to those stallion owners who went and put their heart out there and took a chance and got their horses passed to hear someone who has not taken any of these steps point out how many breedings they are getting and how high quality their horses are and how they have beaten other horses, etc., etc., etc. Especially when there are NO sport results to support the claim. Again, in-hand competitions do not count. We are not breeding halter QH's. We are breeding Sport Horses.....aren't we????????